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North86
09-17-2013, 11:24 AM
Is there a study that has looked at the rise in use of these psychotropic drugs to treat mental and behavioral issues and their link to mass murder?

I know too many kids that are on something because their teachers don't want to deal with their behavioral issues in school.

I'd be interested to see what that looks like.

Sail!

VictorFranko
09-17-2013, 11:27 AM
Is there a study that has looked at the rise in use of these psychotropic drugs to treat mental and behavioral issues and their link to mass murder?

I know too many kids that are on something because their teachers don't want to deal with their behavioral issues in school. parents don't want to deal with their behavioral isues.

I'd be interested to see what that looks like.

Sail!

FIFY

North86
09-17-2013, 12:44 PM
VictorFranko - I'd go 50/50 with on Teacher vs. Parent on that one. But my personal experience is that the recommendation to seek treatment comes from the schools, since many of the parents don't know any different from their kids behavior.

speedrrracer
09-17-2013, 1:31 PM
AFAIK big pharma has successfully avoided any serious scrutiny in all this.

Big Pharma is probably funneling truckloads of cash to Feinstein, Schumer and the like to keep the sheeple distracted from the truth

dominic
09-17-2013, 1:47 PM
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/039752_mass_shootings_psychiatric_drugs_antidepres sants.html#ixzz2fBmhtoAX (http://www.naturalnews.com/039752_mass_shootings_psychiatric_drugs_antidepres sants.html#ixzz2fBmhtoAX")

http://www.policymic.com/articles/20856/adam-lanza-shooting-this-mass-murderer-might-have-been-motivated-by-drugs-not-by-guns

http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.

• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")

• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)

• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.

• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."

• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

dustoff31
09-17-2013, 1:50 PM
Is there a study that has looked at the rise in use of these psychotropic drugs to treat mental and behavioral issues and their link to mass murder?

I know too many kids that are on something because their teachers don't want to deal with their behavioral issues in school.

I'd be interested to see what that looks like.

Sail!

I have not seen such a study if one has been conducted. But it is clear to the most casual observer that almost every mass shooting in the past few years at least, were committed by confirmed nutballs.

the86d
09-17-2013, 1:58 PM
See Democrats... drugs are BAD, M'kay...

I believe most of them were Democrats too.

Sakiri
09-17-2013, 1:59 PM
On top of it, once they start treatment you get the attitude of "ok, he took a pill, he'll be fine" and then fail to monitor the child's condition.

No, he might not be fine. What works for one person with that condition doesn't work for another with the same exact condition. This applies to all drugs.

The example I like to use for that statement is my personal experience with Benadryl. As I'm sure you're aware, diphenhydramine is an antihistamine, which reduces inflammation in allergies. Well, going into the hospital for migraines occasionally(thank God it's been a looong time now) one of the drugs they gave in the IV was diphenhydramine. This generally causes me to get high as a kite... but when I come back down I get PARANOID. Like, seriously paranoid and demanding that they remove the IV, cold, confused.

This is not a normal reaction to this drug, and I can take it in OTC dosages perfectly fine. The liquid IV dose does this exclusively. As a result, my chart says not to administer it.

I have a distinct feeling that more people taking these drugs would be more successful in their treatment if they were monitored.

I have a personal success story, but I'm reluctant to post such on a public forum as this one. I still believe that if the patient has a proper support network, the drugs are safe. They work for most.

The crazies all tend to be people that go, get meds, but aren't monitored afterwards. There's always warning signs. The drugs themselves even suggest keeping monitoring when administering BECAUSE they can make the condition worse.

But no.... parents often just give the kid the pill and think it'll magically fix everything. They don't need to keep an eye on the symptoms and report back if there's a problem. The doctors don't think that the drug could ever possibly be not working. None of it.

And that's the problem.

ojisan
09-17-2013, 2:07 PM
Wesbecker, 47, married, Prozac, 8 dead, 1989.
Purdy, 25, single, Prozac, 5 dead 30 wounded, used AK47, 1989.

Result: CA AWB in 1990.

VendetAR
09-17-2013, 2:13 PM
I was incorrectly prescribed a few SSRIs after being diagnosed as bipolar (I was actually having anxiety issues due to my job that Ive long since left and have been fine ever since). I was given a fairly hefty dose of Welbutrin and started having manic episodes which in one particular case had been driving quite recklessly down the freeway.

I had to go to the ER on my own volition because I knew something was wrong and was given some pretty heavy sedatives to counter act what was happening. I stopped taking the anti depressants they were feeding me and I was fine.

What these poor excuses for Drs are doing is administering drugs that are most likely throwing off a healthy brain chemistry and inducing manic episodes in the patients. Theres no telling what will happen when you purposely modify the amount of Seratonin or Dopamine in an otherwise healthy person.

Sakiri
09-17-2013, 2:20 PM
I was incorrectly prescribed a few SSRIs after being diagnosed as bipolar (I was actually having anxiety issues due to my job that Ive long since left and have been fine ever since). I was given a fairly hefty dose of Welbutrin and started having manic episodes which in one particular case had been driving quite recklessly down the freeway.

I had to go to the ER on my own volition because I knew something was wrong and was given some pretty heavy sedatives to counter act what was happening. I stopped taking the anti depressants they were feeding me and I was fine.

What these poor excuses for Drs are doing is administering drugs that are most likely throwing off a healthy brain chemistry and inducing manic episodes in the patients. Theres no telling what will happen when you purposely modify the amount of Seratonin or Dopamine in an otherwise healthy person.

It's quite possible.

It's also quite possible that people can take these drugs just fine.

SSRIs are extremely tricky drugs to use properly. As is Methylphenidate(Ritalin). They require much more monitoring than they're given.

And Ritalin was never intended to be given to children. It became an accepted use for it once people realized it turned most of them into zombies.

VendetAR
09-17-2013, 2:27 PM
It's quite possible.

It's also quite possible that people can take these drugs just fine.

SSRIs are extremely tricky drugs to use properly. As is Methylphenidate(Ritalin). They require much more monitoring than they're given.

And Ritalin was never intended to be given to children. It became an accepted use for it once people realized it turned most of them into zombies.

Im not of the group that says that SSRIs are bad, I am of the thought that they are over prescribed in lieu of doing basic diagnostic work to determine if the patient is in need of an anti depressant of not.

Chemotherapy can make people healthy but you dont just give it to everyone, it has a legitimate use and should only be given when absolutely necessary, just like SSRI's. Same goes for opiate pain killers, they have legitimate uses and are necessary in some cases, but handing out two weeks of Vicodin for a sprained ankle or a weeks worth of Percocet for wisdom teeth is asinine but it happens constantly.

The issue at hand is improper prescriptions, not the usefulness of a particular drug.

North86
09-17-2013, 3:00 PM
Funny isn't it? How the POTUS will order the CDC to do a study on gun violence, but won't touch anything related to these drugs. Hmm...

To be blunt, Big Pharma is bigger, WAY BIGGER, than the NRA.

uxo2
09-17-2013, 3:50 PM
Zoloft is now one of many approved
by the VA for treatment of PTSD..

Sakiri
09-18-2013, 10:33 AM
Im not of the group that says that SSRIs are bad, I am of the thought that they are over prescribed in lieu of doing basic diagnostic work to determine if the patient is in need of an anti depressant of not.

Chemotherapy can make people healthy but you dont just give it to everyone, it has a legitimate use and should only be given when absolutely necessary, just like SSRI's. Same goes for opiate pain killers, they have legitimate uses and are necessary in some cases, but handing out two weeks of Vicodin for a sprained ankle or a weeks worth of Percocet for wisdom teeth is asinine but it happens constantly.

The issue at hand is improper prescriptions, not the usefulness of a particular drug.

I agree with this.

But you end up with rabid dogs that want rid of the medications period. That's not the solution either.

tiger222
09-18-2013, 11:30 AM
This link to drugs and shootings was Jeff Noveske's last post on FB just before his mysterious death, right after Sandy Hook.

bodger
09-18-2013, 11:35 AM
I was incorrectly prescribed a few SSRIs after being diagnosed as bipolar (I was actually having anxiety issues due to my job that Ive long since left and have been fine ever since). I was given a fairly hefty dose of Welbutrin and started having manic episodes which in one particular case had been driving quite recklessly down the freeway.

I had to go to the ER on my own volition because I knew something was wrong and was given some pretty heavy sedatives to counter act what was happening. I stopped taking the anti depressants they were feeding me and I was fine.

What these poor excuses for Drs are doing is administering drugs that are most likely throwing off a healthy brain chemistry and inducing manic episodes in the patients. Theres no telling what will happen when you purposely modify the amount of Seratonin or Dopamine in an otherwise healthy person.

I damn near went off my rocker taking Wellbutrin as a smoking cessation aid. Never again. That stuff made think some very bad thoughts.

POLICESTATE
09-18-2013, 11:40 AM
There are no official studies. WHy? MONEY that's why.

If there was a link established that showed that anti-psychotics, anti-depressants, and other psychotropic drugs commonly used to treat children as well as adults causes violent behavior you can watch the profits of the companies that make those products GO RIGHT INTO THE CRAPPER.

Don't forget that the same people who regulate this industry move back and forth during their careers between the pharma companies and the FDA.

And this is hardly the only industry where we find this kind of practice going on.

Ratboy
09-18-2013, 12:37 PM
There is this site: http://www.ssristories.com/

I don't know how reliable it is.

a1c
09-18-2013, 1:28 PM
Correlation and causation are two different things.

People who are mentally disturbed are often treated, and when they're treated, they're often treated with those drugs.

Does that mean those drugs cause those episodes? No solid science to prove it.

This is a red herring. Let it go.

dominic
09-26-2013, 5:46 PM
The state of Connecticut is refusing to release Adam Lanzas medical records:

http://www.infowars.com/state-of-connecticut-refuses-to-release-adam-lanzas-medical-records/

The reason given? People might stop taking their medications.

...divulging the identity of the antidepressants he was taking would, “cause a lot of people to stop taking their medications,” according to Assistant Attorney General Patrick B. Kwanashie.

The article gets it right though look at the last line:

However, in the aftermath of such incidents, the mainstream media almost always fails to pursue any connection to antidepressants and instead obsesses about gun control, despite the fact that gun homicides have dropped by 49% since 1993.

Dreaded Claymore
10-02-2013, 10:07 PM
It's quite possible.

It's also quite possible that people can take these drugs just fine.

SSRIs are extremely tricky drugs to use properly. As is Methylphenidate(Ritalin). They require much more monitoring than they're given.

And Ritalin was never intended to be given to children. It became an accepted use for it once people realized it turned most of them into zombies.

Some kids get diagnosed with ADD and given Ritalin (Concerta nowadays) and find that it makes a positive difference in their lives. I wasn't one of those kids. They started making me take Ritalin when I was in 2nd grade. I hated it. Yes, I had an easier time sitting still in class, but it impaired my ability to feel happy. I felt emotionally numb while it was in me. Other kids would notice the negative difference in my mood. When I was in high school, I couldn't stand it any more and I started refusing to take it. Easier concentration in a classroom setting just wasn't worth it.

Sakiri
10-07-2013, 1:45 AM
Some kids get diagnosed with ADD and given Ritalin (Concerta nowadays) and find that it makes a positive difference in their lives. I wasn't one of those kids. They started making me take Ritalin when I was in 2nd grade. I hated it. Yes, I had an easier time sitting still in class, but it impaired my ability to feel happy. I felt emotionally numb while it was in me. Other kids would notice the negative difference in my mood. When I was in high school, I couldn't stand it any more and I started refusing to take it. Easier concentration in a classroom setting just wasn't worth it.

They attempted to put me on Ritalin when I was a kid as well.

It didn't work as well as they'd hoped. My mother ended up getting the prescriptions that the doctor refused to stop giving her and tossing them. She didn't like what it did to me either.

I take medication for a "mental condition" that took MONTHS to get right. And when I say "months", I mean "years". My doctor was most excellent, and had gone as far as give my mother her home phone and cell phone number in case of emergency. She was determined to get it right, and when medication after medication failed to work, she'd try another. I developed tolerances to some of them.

I'm currently on one that I've been on for almost 10 years. I've had no relapses since I've gotten my crap together in my late teens. Ive never been committed. I've never been in trouble with the law. Hell I don't even have traffic violations. I've been on medication for over 20 years now.

I just had the best support network on the planet during the early years, and I was taught to recognize if there is a problem, what to do about it, and how to avoid situations that could theoretically cause problems.

I'm not on an SSRI. They tried those. Didn't work. I found Zoloft killed my sex drive and I believe it's the drug that caused my short term memory loss. I sometimes have trouble remembering if I fed the dog or not. Little things like that. Sticky notes are my bestest friend.

This is why I feel there's too many misdiagnoses and I feel the drugs will work, but only when they're truly needed. Sometimes all those kids need is psychotherapy(counseling, etc) and not drugs.

And then there's "kid being a kid". Overactive kids need more stimulation. They're most likely bored in class. That was my problem. I'd get my textbooks and have them read cover to cover by the end of the first week.

JB-Norcal
10-07-2013, 8:53 PM
My wife was on a few different SSRI's for almost 20 years; when they say to be under a doctors care when reducing or eliminating the chemical, let me just say it was AFRICAN NIGHTMARE. TBO the doctors didn't know squat, just book knowledge, we did it ourselves, took over a year. We are both still living, still together, and the house was never burned to the ground. Not joking, at all. PLEASE think twice, three times before taking any of these meds!!!

a1c
10-07-2013, 10:40 PM
Look at the list above that's constantly quoted. Whomever compiled it obviously refuses to consider the difference between correlation and causation.

All it proves is that many disturbed individuals who committed those crimes were in treatment. It doesn't prove that if you take some of those drugs, you're going to turn into a psychotic murderer. Because MILLIONS in this country take those same drugs. Yet they don't turn into crazy shooters.

This is a pointless thing to go after. Let the medical experts chime in. Don't try to go all scientologist on this (the Church is the one behind a lot of those "facts") and hang those mass murders on psychotropic or other prescription drugs.

JMP
10-07-2013, 11:06 PM
Yep, I think you cracked the case.

Prozac was the first SSRI approved for use in the US in 1987. Since then, the rate of prescriptions have grown exponentially. Around this time, we also saw a marked increase in the amount of violent video games as technology and graphics improved.

However, during this time, the homicide rate in America has been in steady decline.

http://adask.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/homicide-rates2.jpg

The thing is that spree killings have gone on since the beginning of time; however, they are so rare that anyone that conducts an honest assessment of the statistics would know that it is simply impossible to find a cause of a killing spree. Really, the most clear commonality in the well-publicized shooting is being of the young, white male demographic.

Folks really need to stop trying to rationalize highly publicized spree killings because they really aren't a big deal. If you do think they are a big deal, you are experiencing the typical liberal emotional reaction to the sensationalized media propaganda machine. Certainly, it is tragic for those involved, but they are small potatoes when one looks at the big picture.

The folks buying the liberal hype to push gun control through emotional reaction are morons. Why even make these postulations as they suggest there is a gun violence epidemic that needs to be dealt with? The statistics of violent crime over the last couple decades clearly show that all these conjectures are without merit.

twinfin
10-08-2013, 8:13 AM
Look at the list above that's constantly quoted. Whomever compiled it obviously refuses to consider the difference between correlation and causation.

All it proves is that many disturbed individuals who committed those crimes were in treatment. It doesn't prove that if you take some of those drugs, you're going to turn into a psychotic murderer. Because MILLIONS in this country take those same drugs. Yet they don't turn into crazy shooters.


Ah but some do! What do the drug makers themselves have to say about selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (SSRI) medication use and their known side effects? Lets look at Zoloft, a widely used SSRI drug. In the Physicians Desk Reference, we see a list of known side effects for Zoloft:

-attempts to commit suicide
-acting on dangerous impulses
-acting aggressive or violent
-thoughts about suicide or dying
-feeling agitated, angry or irritable

How about Paxil, another popular SSRI drug? Their list of observed side effects includes:

-feeling agitated
-depersonalization
-lack of emotion
-hostility
-antisocial reaction
-delusions

And they say guns and alcohol don't mix! Of course, not all patients taking these drugs will report these known side effects but what of the ones that do?

Do you think any of the perpetrators of recent mass killings who were known to be on these drugs may have been experiencing feelings of hostility, anger, depersonalization, antisocial reaction, aggression and so on? And if they were already predisposed to commit violent acts and then went on SSRI medications, could this have been the perfect storm needed to push them into the horrific acts they committed?

Just some things to think about.

JB-Norcal
10-08-2013, 8:57 AM
"Do you think any of the perpetrators of recent mass killings who were known to be on these drugs may have been experiencing feelings of hostility, anger, depersonalization, antisocial reaction, aggression and so on? And if they were already predisposed to commit violent acts and then went on SSRI medications, could this have been the perfect storm needed to push them into the horrific acts they committed?"

Yep. In our case, my wife has a neurological disorder that for some reason a SSRI helps to minimize certain symtoms. She's not depressed or mentally ill in any way. In this type of situation her 20 year use of chemicals that regulated serotonin effectiveness cause an inability of her brain to produce "normal" amounts. When she decreased the supplemental chemicals she was definatley hostile, agitated violent, had bouts of not having any empathy etc., She could tell you some of the thoughts she had, they were CRAZY fly off the handle out of nowhere stuff. Serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, their use, misuse, and withdrawl is some serious shyt, not to be taken lightly. Do I have scientific proof, no. but I've lived it, so I know it to be true. That being said, each persons brain and their natural and supplemental chemistry are different, your kid on R, or Z or P are truely unique, but the disruption of the chemical treatment shows a tendency for an increase of original symptoms what ever they be, PLUS the anti social ones listed above. IMO, beware the quick fix of the little pill, you're messing with a very complicated system.
Rant-off

Sakiri
10-11-2013, 2:26 PM
Problem is with these drugs, is that people see they work for some and automatically assume that it's a magic happy pill that will solve everything.

Not everyone needs to be on drugs.
Drugs DO help some people.
Most drugs are inherently dangerous if not monitored.
Drugs are prescribed to too many people and all for the wrong reasons.

The end.

Californio
10-11-2013, 3:24 PM
My buddy was given Prozac after his fiancÚ was murdered. He took them for 2 days and STOPPED, claimed it made him suicidal. Bad stuff for a lot of people.

Gem1950
10-12-2013, 9:55 AM
And what about the "drugs" given to the black ops./false flag patsies? Mind control - "they're zapping my head with microwave messages"

wolfwood
10-14-2013, 6:34 PM
I really believe that big pharm has managed to create a culture where it is perfectly normal to dope people up without any need for counseling. While I am not disputing the strong possibility these drugs may have a causal affect on violent behavior, I believe that the more significant affect of these drugs are they create a dam without taking any action to drain the flood and the damn eventually bursts. If we really want to deal with mental illness in this country we'd take a much more proactive approach to counseling especially in our public schools. People use to have have churches to work out their problems. We don't have that in most of the country anymore so we need to replace the preacher with the therapist for better or worse.

While I am not a Marxist I do believe his theories on alienation of labor can be applied to some degree to this situation. Modernity has alienated us both from the product of our labor and our communities in a manner which is unnatural to our humanity. This is in large part what creates the despair we see in modern society. Frankly we should all be at a bar with friends or at home with family rather than on the internet right now. That combined with the incredibly odd juxtapose America takes with its "real man" society while inhibiting traditional masculine behavior is what needs to be treated.

Bustercat
10-14-2013, 7:58 PM
I really believe that big pharm has managed to create a culture where it is perfectly normal to dope people up without any need for counseling. While I am not disputing the strong possibility these drugs may have a causal affect on violent behavior, I believe that the more significant affect of these drugs are they create a dam without taking any action to drain the flood and the damn eventually bursts. If we really want to deal with mental illness in this country we'd take a much more proactive approach to counseling especially in our public schools. People use to have have churches to work out their problems. We don't have that in most of the country anymore so we need to replace the preacher with the therapist for better or worse.

While I am not a Marxist I do believe his theories on alienation of labor can be applied to some degree to this situation. Modernity has alienated us both from the product of our labor and our communities in a manner which is unnatural to our humanity. This is in large part what creates the despair we see in modern society. Frankly we should all be at a bar with friends or at home with family rather than on the internet right now. That combined with the incredibly odd juxtapose America takes with its "real man" society while inhibiting traditional masculine behavior is what needs to be treated.

I'd add to that, and just a hunch here... the alienation and dehumanization of our public spaces as well.
Every town in some places looking the same, with the same strip of cheaply built big box stores, same fast food with same menus and gas stations, sterile suburban manicured housing, environments designed with driving in mind. It's kind of soul destroying.
When people start living like ants, it may just be easier for those predisposed to antisocial behavior, either by nature or SSRIs, to start viewing them as less than human.

HarleyCharlie
10-18-2013, 7:50 PM
I have read this thread and must say that I believe that "Big Pharm" has so much money not only for development and research but also to keep negative research from happening....or if it does happen to intercept it.
Face it....these culprit drugs may do some good for some but they also cause a lot of problems. When people take these drugs some may have suicidal tendencies...hell, its even in the disclaimers.
So my problem with this is if a person...adult or adolescent...commits mass murder and or suicide then why wouldn't the A Holes that try to ban the guns that these people may have used try to ban the drugs.
If there is a war on drugs then pull out the stops....if the people that committed these horrific acts were on these drugs....and in case after case the evidence is there...then BAN THEM....not the guns.

Gem1950
10-18-2013, 8:23 PM
I have read this thread and must say that I believe that "Big Pharm" has so much money not only for development and research but also to keep negative research from happening....or if it does happen to intercept it.
Face it....these culprit drugs may do some good for some but they also cause a lot of problems. When people take these drugs some may have suicidal tendencies...hell, its even in the disclaimers.
So my problem with this is if a person...adult or adolescent...commits mass murder and or suicide then why wouldn't the A Holes that try to ban the guns that these people may have used try to ban the drugs.
If there is a war on drugs then pull out the stops....if the people that committed these horrific acts were on these drugs....and in case after case the evidence is there...then BAN THEM....not the guns.

Bingo! - One problem though. Big pharm. has more $$ than just about any other industry. They make a phone call and politicians, judges, gov. agencies, media and the medical industry do what they're told. That is why drugs cost about one tenth in Canada and Europe as they do here and that is why they are, in essence, legal drug pushers here and will never get blamed for any negative social impact of their products.

Mr.1904
10-18-2013, 8:43 PM
Almost every single person who goes on a "rampage" was taking some sort of prescription drug that altered the chemical balance in their brain. The evidence is there. But how come no one will put any spotlight on it. It's honestly mind boggling. It's an industry and people get rich by putting you on drugs. THIS is the real problem, not inanimate objects. If you have any common sense you can connect the dots.

The guy who shot up the navy yard, was also on prescription drugs.

Mr.1904
10-18-2013, 8:47 PM
Some kids get diagnosed with ADD and given Ritalin (Concerta nowadays) and find that it makes a positive difference in their lives. I wasn't one of those kids. They started making me take Ritalin when I was in 2nd grade. I hated it. Yes, I had an easier time sitting still in class, but it impaired my ability to feel happy. I felt emotionally numb while it was in me. Other kids would notice the negative difference in my mood. When I was in high school, I couldn't stand it any more and I started refusing to take it. Easier concentration in a classroom setting just wasn't worth it.

They started giving me ritalin in 3rd grade. ****ing 3rd grade. I had the exact same experience.

VendetAR
10-18-2013, 10:44 PM
My buddy was given Prozac after his fiancÚ was murdered. He took them for 2 days and STOPPED, claimed it made him suicidal. Bad stuff for a lot of people.

Id believe it if it were possible. SSRI's need a while to be built up in the brain, typically two weeks give or take a few days. His suicidal thoughts more than likely had to do with the shock of losing his fiance subsiding than the drugs.

Anecdotal evidence says that these drugs cause a lot of issues for a lot of people though and suicidal thoughts are a big one (aren't these pills supposed to do the opposite?).

Im not one to tie the drugs directly to these heinous murders, but they very well could be a contributor. Remember that these mass shootings are a statistical grain of sand on the beach so to speak and we would need to see many more shootings or similar actions to get any solid data saying that the drug itself is what did it.

Uglyd
10-18-2013, 11:36 PM
I am a licensed mental health professional and can say that I have come across no compelling empirical studies that suggest psychotropics are categorically responsible for mass murders. Period, end of story. As has been suggested they are present in some cases because we are talking about the actions of the emotionally disturbed - the very same population that would seek out help through such medications. This is kind of like the argument that cops pull over more red cars than any other color. Therefore, don't buy a red car because you will be more susceptible to arrest. Wellllllll, maybe the people who speed and break traffic laws are more apt to buy red cars.

. . . to say the drugs are causal is quite a stretch.

SSRI's are WAY MORE widely used than most would imagine and, sadly, looked to as a final word in psychological healing by many lazy MD's and psychiatrists. They are certainly over-prescribed and often used in a vacuum. These drugs merely arrest some symptoms, they are not curative by nature. Depending on their application they can truly free people up to move forward in their lives and break away from paralyzing mood disorders. However, their benefit is marginal if not coupled with competent psychological counseling and some behavioral shifts. These drugs can certainly be dangerous if only masking symptoms and no follow up or ongoing evaluation of efficacy is set in place. I like the dam analogy mentioned above. Once the presenting symptoms have subsided we must then address the deeper water. After all, does a sneeze cause your cold? If you arrest the post nasal drip does the cold subside? Not exactly, your body's immune system combats a virus. Taking psychiatric drugs with no other form of treatment is similar to taking NyQuil without a functioning immune system. Does that make NyQuil the problem? I don't really think so. People want relief when they suffer. These drugs can offer relief but there is more to be done to heal what causes such symptoms.

But this discussion only opens doors to a failing health care system and a lack of value placed on mental health services. In this very thread folks have begun to demonize the use of these drugs and cast a shadow on those that may benefit from them. This, in turn, creates shame and a feeling that such things should not be discussed openly. This, in my opinion, is what the problem is. We can't talk about these things. It's always someone's fault. This thread is looking to cast blame with anecdotes and hypothesis. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm open to that. But what then? Make mood regulating drugs illegal? What is the proposal here? That Pfizer pay damages to victim's families? I just don't see the value in it.

marcusrn
10-18-2013, 11:55 PM
The purpose for major tranquilizers in many cases is to stop command voices and delusions to harm others. If someone takes these medications and then quits or does not take enough of the medication it could end in felony homicide or suicide.

How in the flip are you going to have a study on insane homicidal people and know if the reason they're killing is if they are on not enough, or because they are homicidal and on the wrong medication, or indeed the medication itself?

On a locked psych unit often times people who have voiced suicidal intent are so clinically depressed that they do not have the energy or psychic strength to harm themselves. With medication, nutrition, and therapy, as the they get relief they are more likely to successfully complete their ill fated mission.

In this instance we are talking about people that are way too depressed to kill
themselves and then they may actually take SSRIs and their depression is ameliorated enough to kill themselves. Until of course they get much better.

These are very powerful drugs that should only be prescribed for serious mental problems.

Notice that James Holmes under the influence of these "devilish medications" is not barking at the judge and asking for the death penalty. He says" not quility by reason of insanity and I'll take life in the slammer".
I think the other schizophrenic 8 ball G Loughner of Gabby Gifford fame did tantamount to the same thing when assisted with same antipsychotics.

Hey. Are any of you people scientologists?

VendetAR
10-19-2013, 1:00 AM
Uglyd, you hit it pretty much dead on.

Most people that recieve health care is usually through an HMO and within an HMO, mental health is about as boutique a practice as plastic surgery. Im gonna guess, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an organization employing Oncologists at a 10:1 ratio to even LCSW's let alone Phd's.

Couple the lack of staffing with the turnstile like movement of patients throughout the day and you have developed a flat rate "treatment" program that gives the LCSW ~30 minutes to figure out what may be happening and giving their recommendation to a single Psychiatrist who talk to the patient for 3-4 minutes and then prescribes them 3 months of a medication without any regular follow up.

This method is the equivalent of taking your overheating car to a mechanic and regardless of the severity of the problem, they add more water and throw in a can of StopLeak. Doesnt matter if you have a blown radiator hose, water pump or a cracked block causing the problem, they have to treat 40 overheating engines per day and aren't given the time to even look under the hood for a few minutes to see what the problem is.

With that said, I totally agree that there is absolutely no proof that the medication is the reason for the resulting action. People that are given anti depressants didn't show up with a broken foot or a bad rash, they came in with a mental health issue. It can easily be correlated that every mass shooter using these meds had a mental problem, but it is much much harder to say that the mental issue was not an issue and instead was the medication.

It is much too simplistic and shows ignorance in the scientific method to make a list of depressed people that hurt themselves while taking a medication trying to treat it. What would need to be looked at is how many of those didn't have chemical imbalances requiring meds and instead had other emotional issues caused by external forces. An example would be that of a bullied child, their brain chemistry is perfectly normal requiring no "fixing", but they ca be emotionally unstable due to abuse. Think of an abused dog biting people. The dog isn't sick, it is reacting to the external situations it must endure. Take that dog and place it in a healthy environment along with proper therapy and the same dangerous dog becomes a docile, loving animal with all the same qualities of a teddy bear. Give that same child or dog a medication or comboation thereof that negatively impacts their brain chemistry and we now have an emotional troubled and chemically altered person that is much more dangerous than they would have been if they were able to work through their problems ad find external solutions to them instead of numbing you to those same issues with a medication.

Proper therapy and in depth diagnostic and investigational methods to determine the cause of the problem is what is needed, but sadly, that is a long and expensive process that doesn't make HMO's money. So you are left with people placed on medications they may not need, an could cause much worse problems than they had to start with.

Uglyd
10-19-2013, 7:13 AM
Uglyd, you hit it pretty much dead on.

Most people that recieve health care is usually through an HMO and within an HMO, mental health is about as boutique a practice as plastic surgery. Im gonna guess, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an organization employing Oncologists at a 10:1 ratio to even LCSW's let alone Phd's.

Couple the lack of staffing with the turnstile like movement of patients throughout the day and you have developed a flat rate "treatment" program that gives the LCSW ~30 minutes to figure out what may be happening and giving their recommendation to a single Psychiatrist who talk to the patient for 3-4 minutes and then prescribes them 3 months of a medication without any regular follow up.

This method is the equivalent of taking your overheating car to a mechanic and regardless of the severity of the problem, they add more water and throw in a can of StopLeak. Doesnt matter if you have a blown radiator hose, water pump or a cracked block causing the problem, they have to treat 40 overheating engines per day and aren't given the time to even look under the hood for a few minutes to see what the problem is.

With that said, I totally agree that there is absolutely no proof that the medication is the reason for the resulting action. People that are given anti depressants didn't show up with a broken foot or a bad rash, they came in with a mental health issue. It can easily be correlated that every mass shooter using these meds had a mental problem, but it is much much harder to say that the mental issue was not an issue and instead was the medication.

It is much too simplistic and shows ignorance in the scientific method to make a list of depressed people that hurt themselves while taking a medication trying to treat it. What would need to be looked at is how many of those didn't have chemical imbalances requiring meds and instead had other emotional issues caused by external forces. An example would be that of a bullied child, their brain chemistry is perfectly normal requiring no "fixing", but they ca be emotionally unstable due to abuse. Think of an abused dog biting people. The dog isn't sick, it is reacting to the external situations it must endure. Take that dog and place it in a healthy environment along with proper therapy and the same dangerous dog becomes a docile, loving animal with all the same qualities of a teddy bear. Give that same child or dog a medication or comboation thereof that negatively impacts their brain chemistry and we now have an emotional troubled and chemically altered person that is much more dangerous than they would have been if they were able to work through their problems ad find external solutions to them instead of numbing you to those same issues with a medication.

Proper therapy and in depth diagnostic and investigational methods to determine the cause of the problem is what is needed, but sadly, that is a long and expensive process that doesn't make HMO's money. So you are left with people placed on medications they may not need, an could cause much worse problems than they had to start with.
Well said. I think we have become a culture of fake fact and blame finding. While I agree with not rolling over and just accepting the "truth" we are fed my perception is that we play the same game we condemn. "It's not the guns, it's the meds!" Now we have a target again. I don't think anybody the ideas are entirely untrue. In fact, I think they're all true. I think we need to reform gun control. How? I'm not sure. But I am sure that way too often they fall in the hands of those that mean to do harm with them. Mental health care reform? ABSOGODDAMNLUTELY. We are no longer a culture of collaborative community with demonstrated interest in the overall well-being of our fellows. I think our government shutting down said it all on that front. We don't solve problems anymore, but we sure can name them.

Cnynrat
10-19-2013, 7:29 AM
Correlation and causation are two different things.

People who are mentally disturbed are often treated, and when they're treated, they're often treated with those drugs.

Does that mean those drugs cause those episodes? No solid science to prove it.

This is a red herring. Let it go.

And what are your qualifications to make this judgement?

Could be there haven't been enough studies of this issue, but the correlation tells me further study is warranted.

todd2968
10-19-2013, 9:57 AM
I believe it is not the drug, it is the person. People that are messed up and are then prescribed drugs, show better symptoms and deemed cured. There should be a process to follow up on anyone prescribed certain drugs. Not because the drugs are evil but because they would have to be out of sorts to get hose type of drugs. If that were the case could you take perfectly normal people, give them those drugs and make them into mass murderers? NO

onethumb
10-19-2013, 11:00 AM
Bingo! - One problem though. Big pharm. has more $$ than just about any other industry. They make a phone call and politicians, judges, gov. agencies, media and the medical industry do what they're told. That is why drugs cost about one tenth in Canada and Europe as they do here and that is why they are, in essence, legal drug pushers here and will never get blamed for any negative social impact of their products.

This isn't exactly true---the price of drugs and other medical equipment is regulated in other countries due to their national health care systems.

When building a business case to understand if a certain project should be undertaken (such as research for a new drug, or developing a new stent), the cost to develop the product is balanced with the expected selling price and market share. If there isn't enough profit to make the investment worthwhile, then the company will choose to invest its money in something else.

Since selling price (and therefore profit) is regulated in almost EVERY other country in the world, it is the general rule of thumb that a higher price in the USA will help generate the profit necessary to justify the project development cost, while the volume from selling to other countries (generally at cost, or with very minimal profit) helps lower manufacturing costs.

Basically, because we are the only free market health care system left, we subsidize the rest of the world's low cost drugs and devices. Most people fail to recognize this.

swamp2
11-03-2013, 10:00 PM
Correlation and causation are two different things.

People who are mentally disturbed are often treated, and when they're treated, they're often treated with those drugs.

Does that mean those drugs cause those episodes? No solid science to prove it.

This is a red herring. Let it go.

It seems there is enough of a combination of known/admitted side effects along with correlation to dig in further. One very basic point could be researched and that would be duration of known mental health issues vs. duration and immediacy of the period under medication compared to the date of the crime. It wouldn't be rock solid proof but certainly would add to the likelihood of causation.

JMP
11-03-2013, 10:53 PM
Is there a study that has looked at the rise in use of these psychotropic drugs to treat mental and behavioral issues and their link to mass murder?

Prozac was the first SSRI to hit the market in 1987. SSRIs are probably over-prescribed, but this is due to the nature of the drug. SSRIs are infinitely safer and less toxic that their predecessors, tricyclic antidepressants, and MAOs. Since 1987, the the number of prescriptions has risen at a very rapid pace. Currently, an obscene number of Americans take SSRI medication. However, when you look at the time period from 1987 until now, couple with the explosion in SSRIs, homicides and violent crime rates have been in steady decline. The marked decrease in the homicide rate could suggest that SSRIs have assisted in curtailing a lot of violent behavior.

As far as studies have gone, there have been numerous studies. In addition to the typical clinical trials for the drug to be approved, the makers of SSRIs have had a lot of litigation to deal with. For this litigation, a lot of data was examined. Unfortunately, there is no way to really address this issue through studies. Studies that are used to test the efficacy and side effects of a drug are done on a random double-blind basis. This technique is pretty accurate when sight effects result in drowsiness, diarrhea, etc. There isn't a way to test for suicide and homicide in clinical trials since these cases are exceedingly rare. As a result of litigation, some SSRIs increased the minimum age. Violence, with or without medication, tends to manifest strongly in a male's early 20s. Virtually all the spree killings have been done by Caucasian males, 18-25. So, it is more likely that there are underlying issues with this demographic.

Given that the homicide rate has fallen to extremely low historical levels (in spite of the extreme number of prescriptions written), I'd be inclined to rule them out as a likely cause.

Sociopathic behavior has existed since the beginning of time. It is highly unlikely that we'd be able to find the key factor in shootings. It most certainly needs to be a mix of many factors.

For me personally, I'd rather take the chance with a crazy person on his meds than a crazy person off his med.

Mjollnir
11-05-2013, 7:53 PM
The bottom line here is $$$$. The bottom line of any business is $$$$$ right? I mean , that's why they call it "the bottom line."
Well Pharma , especially when it comes to psychotropic drugs , has quite the racket. Even when they know that a drug is going to cause health problems, even deaths, they push it through anyways . They are aware of the huge disparity between risk/reward in these instances, and even if they inevitably end up paying out in the recalls and lawsuits that follow, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the massive profits they make off of these toxic drugs. Also, keep in mind that these so called Doctors, who are nothing more than purveyors of junk science chemical toxins, are lining their pockets with $$$ every time they fill out that script. They are greedy, self serving liars that do not care about "patients" any more than that crack dealer cares about the addicts he sells to. The long term effects of these drugs are still being discovered , but are coming to light as more people have been sufficiently saturated for long enough to see firsthand . Gynomastica, birth defects, seizure disorders, heart attacks, strokes, aneurysm , impotence, blindness, decaying brittle bones and teeth etc.
I find it ludicrous that these "scientists" and "doctors" (pushers and pimps really) feel that they can change the chemical composition of the human brain to achieve specific effects, without destroying the delicate balance that exists! What hubris .

SonofWWIIDI
11-05-2013, 8:24 PM
Is there a study that has looked at the rise in use of these psychotropic drugs to treat mental and behavioral issues and their link to mass murder?

I know too many kids that are on something because their teachers don't want to deal with their behavioral issues in school.

I'd be interested to see what that looks like.

Sail!

http://funny-pics.co/wp-content/uploads/funny-image-cartoon-school-grades.jpg

My how times have changed.

a1c
11-06-2013, 2:22 PM
And what are your qualifications to make this judgement?

Could be there haven't been enough studies of this issue, but the correlation tells me further study is warranted.

AGAIN - correlation and causation are two different things.

Just because many people gone postal were using drugs doesn't mean taking those drugs make you a murderer. It just means they were undergoing treatment, just like millions of other patients who didn't mow down a roomful of co-workers or classmates, but who were taking the same drugs.

I'm getting very weary of seeing this red herring pushed forward. I wouldn't be surprised if the mouthpieces behind it were scientology spin doctors.

Remember - some people also argue playing video games makes people more violent (even though there is ZERO research supporting it). Their argument? That some famous mass murderers enjoyed playing violent video games or watched violent movies. All it means is that some people who are inclined to have violent behavior do enjoy violent entertainment. That doesn't mean violent games or films trigger violent behavior.

I also think it's incredibly careless to want to push that thing forward even though there is no science behind it. This could VERY EASILY be used against us.

Gem1950
11-06-2013, 4:35 PM
The bottom line here is $$$$. The bottom line of any business is $$$$$ right? I mean , that's why they call it "the bottom line."
Well Pharma , especially when it comes to psychotropic drugs , has quite the racket. Even when they know that a drug is going to cause health problems, even deaths, they push it through anyways . They are aware of the huge disparity between risk/reward in these instances, and even if they inevitably end up paying out in the recalls and lawsuits that follow, it is a drop in the bucket compared to the massive profits they make off of these toxic drugs. Also, keep in mind that these so called Doctors, who are nothing more than purveyors of junk science chemical toxins, are lining their pockets with $$$ every time they fill out that script. They are greedy, self serving liars that do not care about "patients" any more than that crack dealer cares about the addicts he sells to. The long term effects of these drugs are still being discovered , but are coming to light as more people have been sufficiently saturated for long enough to see firsthand . Gynomastica, birth defects, seizure disorders, heart attacks, strokes, aneurysm , impotence, blindness, decaying brittle bones and teeth etc.
I find it ludicrous that these "scientists" and "doctors" (pushers and pimps really) feel that they can change the chemical composition of the human brain to achieve specific effects, without destroying the delicate balance that exists! What hubris .

^^^ +1

Drew Eckhardt
11-06-2013, 4:43 PM
Is there a study that has looked at the rise in use of these psychotropic drugs to treat mental and behavioral issues and their link to mass murder?

I know too many kids that are on something because their teachers don't want to deal with their behavioral issues in school.

I'd be interested to see what that looks like.

Sail!

Mass murder in the US is declining.

With 60% of mass murderers committed by the mentally ill it's more likely that mental health drugs reduce their incidence.

Pmoore87
11-11-2013, 1:43 PM
Is there a study that has looked at the rise in use of these psychotropic drugs to treat mental and behavioral issues and their link to mass murder?

I know too many kids that are on something because their teachers don't want to deal with their behavioral issues in school.

I'd be interested to see what that looks like.

Sail!

There is lots of research showing their link to suicide, and murder. I do not know about mass murders in particular but murders for sure. Same thing though really. They are a major factor in a lot of things. But your talking about drug company's here. They have the money, the politicians, and the power. That is an uphill battle, especially in a country where half the people feel there is a pill to fix everything.

a1c
11-11-2013, 2:39 PM
There is lots of research showing their link to suicide, and murder. I do not know about mass murders in particular but murders for sure. Same thing though really. They are a major factor in a lot of things. But your talking about drug company's here. They have the money, the politicians, and the power. That is an uphill battle, especially in a country where half the people feel there is a pill to fix everything.

Replace medication with drugs and "drug companies" with "gun manufacturers", "pill" with "gun" and you sound exactly like the antis.

This is a pointless argument that can very, very easily be turned against us.