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socalltd
09-16-2013, 6:06 PM
I have been shooting for a long time with boy scouts friends and the marine corps, but I have come to learn that I really dont know much about calibers or rifles for that matter. I was hoping I can get some guidance in selecting a bolt action rifle with a magazine that would be able to reach out and touch 600+ yards on a budget. I am sure there are thousands of threads like this so if someone could point me in a good direction that would be awesome. Thank you very much for you time and consideration

socalltd
09-16-2013, 6:08 PM
I was considering the remington 783 .308 winchester. Is this in the ballpark of what i should be looking at?

NoNOS67
09-16-2013, 6:31 PM
What kind of budget are you working with? Don't forget, you'll need to purchase a quality scope as well.

socalltd
09-16-2013, 6:34 PM
my budget is flexible but the cheaper the better but if i had to put a number on it 500-1000 (scope and bipod or similar product) if possible... obviously it can grow but i would like to be in that range

postal
09-16-2013, 6:48 PM
Hi and welcome.

Please start out reading the thread below.... with the title something like what do I get for $300 vs $800.

There are a lot of bargain basement guns on the market now. Some are actually decent. Never forget however that most of the time, you get what you pay for. Hence the saying "buy once, cry once." (cry at the price, but be happy with the purchase, or buy cheap junk that fails you and buy again and again until you're happy crying with every bad purchase.)

Set a solid budget in mind, and what you want the rifle for- target/competition/hunting. At what distance. If you reload or not.... if you hunt, what game- if you compete what competition...

The more info WE have, the more help we can provide. However, start with that thread on $300-800 it will help you start sorting out ideas..

socalltd
09-16-2013, 6:58 PM
I saw that post but I shied away from it because he was already on a caliber but ill look into it.

I have no idea on how to set a budget because I have never bought a rifle before.

The primary use would be target shoot long distance 600+ yards and for now I will not be reloading but would like to keep that in mind for the future.

Thank you for your help ill get on reading that other thread

LynnJr
09-16-2013, 7:38 PM
The problem with your question is there are shooters here from many different disciplines.You have tactical,F-Class,Highpower and Benchrest types posting here and they are all different.
In tactical they use alot of 308 winchester rounds and you would be hard pressed to find one in a longrange Benchrest rifle do top its poor ballistic characteristics.
In longrange Benchrest they are only after guilt edge accuracy and barrel life means nothing at all were as in F-class they shot 20 round strings and barrel heating and throat erosion are always a concern as is recoil.

The next problem is most factory ammo is intended for relatively short range use.In longrange shooting you want heavy for caliber bullets with there high bc numbers requiring faster twist barrels.

A good compromise that has factory ammo that will work at longrange would be the 6BR the 6.5x284 the 300 Win Mag and a couple other less popular cartridges.
The rifles would work best with fast twist barrels and longer than average length barrels as well.

CobraRed
09-16-2013, 7:47 PM
I agree with Lynn

(I feel dirty after saying that)

Long range factory ammo is hard to come by which is why a lot (most) precision shooters reload their own.

6.5x47L and 260 Rem are another to consider.

All the factory ammo for this stuff is going to be expensive. Although .308 isn't ballistically stellar compared to some newer cartridges, it does get the job done. My .308 (very aftermarket built, though) can hit 3" steel spinners at 600 yards and can hit predictably the 6" steel spinner at 700.
A 175gr round would do you well.

LynnJr
09-16-2013, 8:15 PM
CobraRed
I was considered a perfect gentleman and a angel for 12 straight years then I posted what actually took place at the matches and who did it and sudden;y I am public enemy #1."All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." comes to mind.
Lynn

socalltd
09-16-2013, 8:31 PM
is it really that far off though. we shoot 500 yards with 4x optic hitting black all day and these weapons are abused and ammo comes from the lowest bidder.

also I just read an interesting article on guns and ammo that just destroyed the .308

the fallowing were mentioned as long range capible .375 H&H Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, .30-06 Springfield, .300 H&H Magnum, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum. do you have recommendations/ personal experience with any of these

NorCalFocus
09-17-2013, 8:35 AM
If your not planning on reloading soon, the 30-06 and .270 offers a better selection of ammo and it can be found anywhere. That's just my opinion though.

308 is not the best ballistic caliper sure, but it fits most of all shooters needs. Good out to 800-1000 yards, lots of loading options, it can be shot all day long at a range. The calibers you sighted above are great for hunting but they also aren't on the cheap side or something I'd want to shoot all day.

socalltd
09-17-2013, 8:55 AM
Thank you all once again... to sum this up I would be looking for rifle in the 500 to 800 range with calibers 30-06 .270 6.5mm .260 or 300 win mag with the 30-06 and .270 on the cheaper end

CobraRed
09-17-2013, 9:10 AM
CobraRed
I was considered a perfect gentleman and a angel for 12 straight years then I posted what actually took place at the matches and who did it and sudden;y I am public enemy #1."All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." comes to mind.
Lynn

My remarks have little to nothing to do with your range exploits and stories, mainly just your opinions and demeanor.

NorCalFocus
09-17-2013, 9:29 AM
Remington 700 or a Savage then buy a mag conversion.

6mmintl
09-17-2013, 1:21 PM
Out of the box the only long range caliber recommendation I can make is .243, you can get 100 grain SPBT ammo and its good at 200-800 yards, if you pull bullets and load 95 Berger's/JLK's or other 90-98 VLD's you should be able to get them to fly out of the std. 9-9.5" twist of factory barrels out to 1000with very good + but not ideal ballistics'.

As for low cost rifles, Savage Axis comes to mind, though the stock is ugly it can be stiffened up and pillar bedded, float the barrel and minor trigger work and you have a good start, add a laminated stock in the future and maybe change out barrel/caliber. The action on these is very stiff/ideal for target accuracy, king of like the old Remington 788 platform.

TMB 1
09-17-2013, 1:48 PM
my budget is flexible but the cheaper the better but if i had to put a number on it 500-1000 (scope and bipod or similar product) if possible... obviously it can grow but i would like to be in that range

Thank you all once again... to sum this up I would be looking for rifle in the 500 to 800 range with calibers 30-06 .270 6.5mm .260 or 300 win mag with the 30-06 and .270 on the cheaper end

A Stevens 200 30-06 and a Leupold scope. Then upgrade to a Boyds laminated stock and a Timney trigger.
Stevens 200 is basically the same thing as Savage 110 without accu trigger.

janus408
09-17-2013, 2:03 PM
Used Reminton 700 AAC-SD for ~$650-750

SWFA SS 10x fixed for $300

Plenty of room to grow as your interest and/or funds do.

I know you list a bunch of other calibers, but why? .308 barrel life is super long. Ammo availability is diverse.

6.5s, 260s and 300wm make no sense for a budget build as the barrel life compared to .308 is terrible. Ammo is more expensive as well.

Budget = .308 (100-800+ yards) or .223 (100-500/600 yards).

You dont need a mag conversion. You are looking at $250 on the lowest end (non-AICS mags), and that would be over 30% of your stated budget. And what does it get you? If you are shooting from a bench, just load 1 at a time. Or use the internal mag if you feel like quick(er) repeat shots. But the magazine is something you can wait until much further down the line, especially when it now makes more sense to buy a Chassis that doesn't require a separate mag conversion because it is built into the chassis (as most are). For a $600 chassis you are getting an ergonomic stock, and a chassis system. Whereas if you bought a stock, you would then have to buy a DBM AND have the stock inletted for it, which would bring you nearly up to, or over, the price of a chassis like the McRee.

Also regarding bipods: You can get a really cheap one you'll have to replace later (wasted money) or you can spend ~95 on a Harris S-BRM (or non swivel and save some money if you only ever shoot from a bench). Or just use the sandbags most ranges have for shooters to use, and spend the $ saved on ammo or a better rifle/scope.

I just don't get the guys telling you to get some of the higher BC calibers like 6.5s or the 300wm when you are working on a budget build. If money is tight, why choose a caliber that will make it so you need to replace the barrel 2x or 3x as often as .308 (or more)?

postal
09-17-2013, 2:37 PM
Janus makes very good points.

However I would add that the common chassis systems out there are usually made for rem700 and savage.

Any of the posters that said buy a cheaper rifle with a junk stock and upgrade the stock... the chassis upgrade is better because the mag feed setup built in..

LynnJr
09-17-2013, 5:22 PM
My remarks have little to nothing to do with your range exploits and stories, mainly just your opinions and demeanor.

Follow the opinions and ignore what you perceive as demeanor and you might get a couple pieces of very useful info out of my posts.I have actually done it while most here are young gung-ho kids.

janus408
09-17-2013, 5:25 PM
Going to bring this back to: we need more info.

If you are getting into long range / precision shooting, there are many disciplines and you need to decide which one is going to be your focus. Caliber and gear will vary in many cases between these.

Are you going to be a benchrest shooter? Are you going to try FClass? Are you going to be hunting? Are you going to be doing tactical? Are you going to be out in the wilderness shooting on BLM land (or similar)?

What is the distance you will be shooting 90% of the time? What is the max distance you will shoot, or want to shoot? --It is important to say that you will be shooting 100 or 200 yards 90% of the time because that is what the shooting ranges max out at near you. If you are going to do 20 range trips a year, and 18 of them max at 200 yards, but 2 stretch out to 600 yards, it makes absolutely ZERO sense to get a 300wm, 6.5 anything or 260.

Is this something you want to spend $1,000 on, be done, and never upgrade as you only shoot 2-3 times a year? Or are you looking for a first time investment of $1,000, then spend another $1-2k over the next few years upgrading?

How many rounds a month/year do you plan on shooting? If you want to shoot 200 rounds a month, and you want a 6.5 Creedmoor, but only have $900 to spend on an entire setup, can you really afford $280 a month that would cost, just in ammo? With range fees (say 2 trips of 100 rounds) you are looking at $320. So 30% of your equipment budget is paid every month in ammo. Does that make any sense to anyone?

I am not trying to beat anyone down here. I am also not the expert, or an expert.

I wanted to shoot 1k yards. I wanted to get into precision shooting. I thought I could do all that for $1k, I thought that was reasonable. 3 of the closest ranges to me only go to 100 yards. When was I going to make it to shoot 1k yards? Maybe twice a year when I drive 5 hours to Sac and 5 hours back? Or two to three times a year when I drive to backpack in BLM land? I was convinced by others to get a .22lr and treat it as a trainer. I spent $300 on a .22lr bolt action, $100 on a new stock, $100 on metal, $300 on a scope, and $200 on ammo. For $1k I had a great .22lr bolt action with a good scope. For $1k into a .308 I would have had a subpar setup. I would have been shooting .308 at 100 yards 90% of the time, and I wouldnt have learned much, at the very least not as much as I have learned with the .22lr.

It isn't just because the caliber punishes you more in every way at 100 yards vs .308, but because ammo cost 10% as much as the .308, or less, so for the same investment I could shoot 10x as much.

Now I am not saying you should think about a .22lr. I am not trying to convince you to go for a lesser caliber, but take a step back and go through those questions I posed. Answer them here, and people will chime in with better advice, because they will have better info.

Like if you say you only shoot to 300 yards 90% of the time, I am going to say .17HMR or .22WMR makes way more sense than any centerfire.

janus408
09-17-2013, 5:26 PM
I have actually done it while most here are young gung-ho kids.

Dont mistake youth for inexperience.

NorCalFocus
09-17-2013, 8:02 PM
Great post Janus. You took the time and really put down what I was thinking.

If you're not handloading I'm not sure why anyone would want to do anything other than a 308, 30-06, 223, 243, or 270. Then of all of those I listed which one is really best for your needs and wants? From what I read in the first post, 308.

postal
09-17-2013, 8:37 PM
Great posts Janus. Thanks for taking the time for such a thorough answer.

postal
09-17-2013, 8:48 PM
Originally Posted by LynnJr
I have actually done it while most here are young gung-ho kids.

...so... most of the best shooters in the WORLD are like half your age? Or less?

Whats the average age of a member of USAMU?

Army/Marine scout sniper?

We've had a 16 year old girl win the monthly precision rifle match last spring. Monthly action pistol has a 17? yr old girl that will embarass a lot of cops and regular adults.

smittty
09-17-2013, 9:59 PM
I agree with Janus, great advice!

I have been using a 223 rifle for my "precision" shooting and recently got/built a rifle in 22 LR. My 223 will reach 600 yards. It is more challenging than using a heavier caliber but its doable and before this year it was very affordable.

Germz
09-17-2013, 10:10 PM
I have been shooting for a long time with boy scouts friends and the marine corpsMarine Corps., but I have come to learn that I really dont know much about calibers or rifles for that matter. I was hoping I can get some guidance in selecting a bolt action rifle with a magazine that would be able to reach out and touch 600+ yards on a budget. I am sure there are thousands of threads like this so if someone could point me in a good direction that would be awesome. Thank you very much for you time and consideration

Fixed it for ya :p.

Welcome to Calguns! I agree with the above posts. Quality glass is just as important as the rifle itself if you're going to be doing some distance shooting!

janus408
09-18-2013, 12:00 AM
Quality glass is just as important as the rifle itself if you're going to be doing some distance shooting!

If you take nothing else from the advice in this thread, take this.

At a minimum get the SWFA SS 10X. $300-400ish its the best you can get. If you cant spend that on a scope, this isn't the sport for you.

LynnJr
09-18-2013, 3:35 AM
Originally Posted by LynnJr
I have actually done it while most here are young gung-ho kids.

...so... most of the best shooters in the WORLD are like half your age? Or less?

Whats the average age of a member of USAMU?

Army/Marine scout sniper?

We've had a 16 year old girl win the monthly precision rifle match last spring. Monthly action pistol has a 17? yr old girl that will embarass a lot of cops and regular adults.

No most of the best shooters are my age or older than myself.
On Calguns most of the posters are young gung ho kids without any experience at all.

socalltd
09-18-2013, 9:31 AM
90% it will be on a private range in the hills with my cousin and the most common distance is 600 yards out to a thousand. I do realize i need to adjust my budget over 1k i had no idea what to start with so the 1k was a rough idea. I did make a decision and im purchasing a 700 30-06 due to upgrade ability and variety in the round itself.

As far as glass goes i understand ill probably end up spending more on the scope than the entire weapon system itself. I was highly recomended a leopold but i still have a lot of research to do in that department.

Thank you all for all of your help this is just the beginning for me

TMB 1
09-18-2013, 12:35 PM
Leupold is one of the best! If you think you might use it for hunting a variable power would be best. It's kind of hard to stay on moving targets at closer ranges with a fixed high power.

janus408
09-18-2013, 12:35 PM
I would skip 30-06 as it means you are getting a long action receiver, instead of a short action. If you go for a .308 you can shoot 8K+ rounds before you need to swap the barrel. But you can swap it when you get some funds, or want to change to 6.5 or .260 because they use the same action and boltface. You would just send/drop off your rifle and the new barrel in the caliber you want, and the gunsmith would true your action and spin the barrel on.

As far as the scope, I would skip the Leupold. I don't think they have anything that competes in the $300-700 range with SWFA's SS line (10x fixed and 3-15x). And $850 is taken by Vortex PST 6-24x FFP.

If you are stuck on Leupold though, just make sure you get a mil / mil scope.

Whiterabbit
09-20-2013, 12:12 PM
my budget is flexible but the cheaper the better but if i had to put a number on it 500-1000 (scope and bipod or similar product) if possible... obviously it can grow but i would like to be in that range

FYI I bought a MarkX mauser in 7x57 for $550 a few years ago. 2010, to be exact. it came off the consignment rack complete with a Leupold variX-II 3-9x40.

With factory ammo from prvi partisan (the cheap stuff) the holes touch at 100. I never took that stuff long range, but with my handloads I have no issues touching man sized targets at 700 yards. No issues at all. And I'm not all that great a shooter.

Your budget is reasonable. If your standards for group size are large at 600 yards (aka man sized target, not shooting 6" groups), then you'll be able to achieve your goals pretty easily.

Find what you like, buy, then shoot, shoot, shoot!

--------------

There is:

nothing wrong with long actions
nothing wrong with 30-06
nothing wrong with the 700 rifle
nothing wrong with the decisions you are making
nothing that says you can't shoot 1000 yards with inexpensive glass

you will be fine. You're agonizing over small details that armchair shooters are nitpicking not because of reality, but their own perceptions. I have my own percptions as well.

What you need to do, is pick up what feels right (and looking at the price tag to make sure it is suitably expensive is NOTgood criteria to determine what feels right!) and go SHOOT! No replacement for happy-fun trigger time.

I thikn you made a fine choice for a rifle. Now wait your 10 days and get some ammunition while you wait!

socalltd
09-25-2013, 3:40 PM
FYI I bought a MarkX mauser in 7x57 for $550 a few years ago. 2010, to be exact. it came off the consignment rack complete with a Leupold variX-II 3-9x40.

With factory ammo from prvi partisan (the cheap stuff) the holes touch at 100. I never took that stuff long range, but with my handloads I have no issues touching man sized targets at 700 yards. No issues at all. And I'm not all that great a shooter.

Your budget is reasonable. If your standards for group size are large at 600 yards (aka man sized target, not shooting 6" groups), then you'll be able to achieve your goals pretty easily.

Find what you like, buy, then shoot, shoot, shoot!

--------------

There is:

nothing wrong with long actions
nothing wrong with 30-06
nothing wrong with the 700 rifle
nothing wrong with the decisions you are making
nothing that says you can't shoot 1000 yards with inexpensive glass

you will be fine. You're agonizing over small details that armchair shooters are nitpicking not because of reality, but their own perceptions. I have my own percptions as well.

What you need to do, is pick up what feels right (and looking at the price tag to make sure it is suitably expensive is NOTgood criteria to determine what feels right!) and go SHOOT! No replacement for happy-fun trigger time.

I thikn you made a fine choice for a rifle. Now wait your 10 days and get some ammunition while you wait!


I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you but thank you so much for your positive feedback and clear advice for next steps to come. I'm getting pretty excited, only two more days to go! :95::19::62::45::18::30::61::17::44::Ivan:

Whiterabbit
09-25-2013, 4:49 PM
good luck. I picked up the last rifle I plan to buy just yesterday. (I know what they say about plans....)

Friday is the perfect day to pick up. you have all night to mount sights or scope, polish the trigger, smooth out the bolt, and scrub out the test fired fouling. And all day Saturday to fall in love.

Abenaki
09-26-2013, 5:04 PM
Remember that a scope is half of the shooting package! Get the best one that you can.


Take care
Abenaki

Whiterabbit
09-26-2013, 6:00 PM
Unless you man up and shoot irons!

socalltd
09-27-2013, 8:02 AM
irons have had a special place in my heart for along time. thats when i first really learned how to shoot. I mean the true fundamentals of shooting but sadly its just not that great at 600+ yards

Whiterabbit
09-27-2013, 8:29 AM
irons have had a special place in my heart for along time. thats when i first really learned how to shoot. I mean the true fundamentals of shooting but sadly its just not that great at 600+ yards

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac214/kclark4895/PalmaRifle003.jpg

:)

SonofWWIIDI
09-27-2013, 9:12 AM
I've got a savage 30-06 with a trapdoor magazine (internal, but they also make one with a detachable mag), and it shoots very nicely. I am planning on changing the stock however. Has an adjustible trigger too.

Fairly inexpensive.

rm1911
09-27-2013, 9:29 AM
irons have had a special place in my heart for along time. thats when i first really learned how to shoot. I mean the true fundamentals of shooting but sadly its just not that great at 600+ yards

I remember being young once and having good eyesight and being able to shoot my garand and ring metal at ranges that my deer-scoped rifle friends would miss. can't do that as much anymore as father time has caught up with my once great eyesight. I used to be able to see the seems on a fastball. now when I hit with my kids, the ball is a blur. irons are extremely accurate and I'd wager damn near as accurate as glass.

which is the real point I wanted to make. all the talk about glass, rifles, etc., everything ends up coming down to the guy on the trigger. give a great shooter an average rifle and an average shooter a great rifle. I'll put my money on the shooter :oji::oji::oji::oji:

most decent factory rifles are very good shooters. modern production methods are so vastly improved. in fact the marlin X7, savage 110, rem 700, etc. right off the rack will all do MOA, even sub MOA especially if you develop good loads for them. that's pretty damn good, better than most shooters, myself included. I'd recommend getting a decent rifle and scope and shoot until you the shooter have reached the limits of your rifle. and that can be well under $1000 total.

postal
09-27-2013, 11:21 AM
irons have had a special place in my heart for along time. thats when i first really learned how to shoot. I mean the true fundamentals of shooting but sadly its just not that great at 600+ yards

The first 600 yd monthly competition I went too... I was in the pits marking targets for a guy shooting quality competition peep sights....

This guy knocked the plastic peg out of the target marker 3 times... 3 times, he hit the SAME hole a second time with irons at 600.... He wasnt young either...