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View Full Version : FFL Requires seller to have proof of residence for PPT


bussda
09-16-2013, 6:39 PM
This is the problem:

A PPT is arranged.

FFL sees PO Box number on ID.

FFL states need to see something with proof (government mailed/issued preferred) of residence address to proceed.

This is not at all FFL's.

The root of the problem seems to be that some FFL's, when audited, got the question: "How do you know it is his residence address?"

What legal requirement is there for the seller in a PPT to provide proof of residence address?
Can an auditor require seller proof of residence address?

DFence
09-16-2013, 6:56 PM
This is the problem:

A PPT is arranged.

FFL sees PO Box number on ID.

FFL states need to see something with proof (government mailed/issued preferred) of residence address to proceed.

This is not at all FFL's.

The root of the problem seems to be that some FFL's, when audited, got the question: "How do you know it is his residence address?"

What legal requirement is there for the seller in a PPT to provide proof of residence address?
Can an auditor require seller proof of residence address?

I have never been asked to provide proof when I sell. That's a new one for me.

vintagearms
09-16-2013, 7:18 PM
You drove their right? Your auto registration should suffice. Mountains out of mole hills.

riceman
09-16-2013, 7:29 PM
Auto reg can also be PO BOX. Sold a gun to a friend and everything he had was with PO BOX, (phone bill, pg&e bill and drivers license etc.) My FFL said to buy a Hunting license with physical address and it would be good to go.
So he did and we were able to do PPT.
They just needed a Federal document with his physical address on it.

littlejake
09-16-2013, 8:00 PM
Generally, any government issued license with an address and expiration date will do. Guard Card, Amateur Radio License, .... et cetera

Animal Mother
09-16-2013, 8:01 PM
If the buyer of your gun gets denied then the gun gets released back to you, so I can see why they would need the same info from you as if you were the buyer.

bussda
09-16-2013, 8:04 PM
Guys, the question is not about another form of ID, but why the FFL needs it.

Sakiri
09-16-2013, 8:42 PM
Auto reg can also be PO BOX. Sold a gun to a friend and everything he had was with PO BOX, (phone bill, pg&e bill and drivers license etc.) My FFL said to buy a Hunting license with physical address and it would be good to go.
So he did and we were able to do PPT.
They just needed a Federal document with his physical address on it.

When I went to the DMV to do auto registration on my ex husband's car in Washington state, we were told that they would not accept a PO box for the address.

This caused issues later when they tried to send the registration renewal to an address that cannot physically receive mail.

I'm almost sure that's a state by state problem though.

Sakiri
09-16-2013, 8:44 PM
Auto reg can also be PO BOX. Sold a gun to a friend and everything he had was with PO BOX, (phone bill, pg&e bill and drivers license etc.) My FFL said to buy a Hunting license with physical address and it would be good to go.
So he did and we were able to do PPT.
They just needed a Federal document with his physical address on it.

I haven't the slightest clue why anyone would put their PO box on their driver's license.

That's not your residence address. -_- Mine didn't have the PO box on it when I got it. It had my residence address, which is what the DMV told me to put on it when I asked them.

roll2li
09-16-2013, 9:00 PM
Was this for a handgun or long gun?

tpf68
09-16-2013, 9:18 PM
I haven't the slightest clue why anyone would put their PO box on their driver's license.

That's not your residence address. -_- Mine didn't have the PO box on it when I got it. It had my residence address, which is what the DMV told me to put on it when I asked them.

According out our local DMV, the address listed on the DL is the mailing address. Where are you receiving your mail correspondence from DMV at? I've fought the same issue for years. Ended up with my PO Box on the DL, my physical address in their system but not listed on the DL, and a change of address card with my physical address on it and DMV's little date stamp to keep with the DL. Its a PITA.

bussda
09-17-2013, 12:16 PM
Was this for a handgun or long gun?

It has happened for both. The controlling factor seems to be the auditor of the records.

bussda
09-17-2013, 12:22 PM
I haven't the slightest clue why anyone would put their PO box on their driver's license.
...

Let's see, abused hiding from abuser. deterring stalker, privacy, mail being pilfered, frequent change of residence, etc.

Untamed1972
09-17-2013, 1:27 PM
I haven't the slightest clue why anyone would put their PO box on their driver's license.

That's not your residence address. -_- Mine didn't have the PO box on it when I got it. It had my residence address, which is what the DMV told me to put on it when I asked them.

I just went thru this. CA will only put on your license the address your DL will mailed too. So if you dont receive mail at your physical address (which I dont) Your only option is to have your PO box on your DL.

letsgosteelers
09-18-2013, 11:16 AM
I have PO Box on CDL and auto registration, never been a problem.

Whenever I do a DROS / transfer just need to provide govt bill showing physical address such as property tax, utility so long as it is a govt entity, etc.

The other option is to go to DMV and get a form (dont remember the number) but basically it lists your info and also lists physical addr.

CSACANNONEER
09-18-2013, 11:54 AM
This is the problem:

A PPT is arranged.

FFL sees PO Box number on ID.

FFL states need to see something with proof (government mailed/issued preferred) of residence address to proceed.

This is not at all FFL's.

The root of the problem seems to be that some FFL's, when audited, got the question: "How do you know it is his residence address?"

What legal requirement is there for the seller in a PPT to provide proof of residence address?
Can an auditor require seller proof of residence address?

Is this the idiot FFL at Angeles? If it is, he requires TWO forms of ID from the seller and states that it is the law.

Sakiri
09-18-2013, 12:43 PM
According out our local DMV, the address listed on the DL is the mailing address. Where are you receiving your mail correspondence from DMV at? I've fought the same issue for years. Ended up with my PO Box on the DL, my physical address in their system but not listed on the DL, and a change of address card with my physical address on it and DMV's little date stamp to keep with the DL. Its a PITA.

It is, especially when state ID cards are supposed to be proof of residency since you need to have a residency status here to get one. I had to wait six months on a Washington state ID card before CA would issue me one.

The issue I mentioned was *in* Washington state, which is why I said it might be a state by state thing. I could not physically get mail at my home address, as it was an apartment behind a locked door above a historical landmark theater(fun fact: the photo in the building's wikipedia page was my ex's Toyota... lol). I *had* to get a PO Box.

We told them that, and they put the residential address on the ID and his DL, but then neglected to put the PO Box in the system for mailing and we didn't get the registration papers when that came up for renewal because they were returned, undeliverable.

Sakiri
09-18-2013, 12:46 PM
Let's see, abused hiding from abuser. deterring stalker, privacy, mail being pilfered, frequent change of residence, etc.

None of the above should be affected by having a card kept on you up to date.

I move frequently and carry a change of address card.

Stalkers shouldn't be getting in your wallet. Abusers shouldn't be getting in your wallet. You can get locks for your mailbox. Privacy goes out the window when it comes to the government, which is what an ID card is for... verifying information that the government wants.

Sakiri
09-18-2013, 12:47 PM
I have PO Box on CDL and auto registration, never been a problem.

Whenever I do a DROS / transfer just need to provide govt bill showing physical address such as property tax, utility so long as it is a govt entity, etc.

The other option is to go to DMV and get a form (dont remember the number) but basically it lists your info and also lists physical addr.

That becomes a problem when you have none of the above.

None of the utilities at my current residence are in my name. Bicycle license didn't work.

Capt.Dunsel
09-18-2013, 12:54 PM
I haven't the slightest clue why anyone would put their PO box on their driver's license.

That's not your residence address. -_- Mine didn't have the PO box on it when I got it. It had my residence address, which is what the DMV told me to put on it when I asked them.

When I worked for an FFL, LEO's that came in had P.O.Box numbers on their DL's , DMV papers. It was for their safety. A few Ranchers had P.O.Box numbers as well , hard to find either if you didn't know them.:D

nastyhabts26
09-18-2013, 2:12 PM
I had this happen once with me as the buyer at Turners, we just went to Ammo Bros and made the PPT there.

scoutpup99
09-18-2013, 2:21 PM
It is a federal requirement that your address has to be established either by your drivers license or your license and additional government issued documents. A DMV print out showing your residence address works. If you license has a po box we have to get a proof of residency from you. putting a po box in your bound book can cause you to lose your ffl.

Even though this is a ppt transaction it gets entered into our bound book meaning we have to have a valid address. ATF does inspect the state paperwork when they come to make sure it matches the 4473.

bussda
09-18-2013, 3:52 PM
Is this the idiot FFL at Angeles? If it is, he requires TWO forms of ID from the seller and states that it is the law.

Never been to Angeles, and the first time I encountered this was in Ventura county. The requirement was the result of an ATF audit.

None of the above should be affected by having a card kept on you up to date.

I move frequently and carry a change of address card.

Stalkers shouldn't be getting in your wallet. Abusers shouldn't be getting in your wallet. You can get locks for your mailbox. Privacy goes out the window when it comes to the government, which is what an ID card is for... verifying information that the government wants.

All good points. But if your residence address is in a government system, then it can be accessed, legally or illegally. And the change of address in California on a separate card is not considered sufficient for purchase of a firearm. But I am talking about seller's ID requirements.

It is a federal requirement that your address has to be established either by your drivers license or your license and additional government issued documents. A DMV print out showing your residence address works. If you license has a po box we have to get a proof of residency from you. putting a po box in your bound book can cause you to lose your ffl.

Even though this is a ppt transaction it gets entered into our bound book meaning we have to have a valid address. ATF does inspect the state paperwork when they come to make sure it matches the 4473.

Yes, for a buyer I understand this. But what about the seller ID requirements? Has the federal government in the form of the ATF imposed buyer requirements on the seller of a firearm?

scoutpup99
09-19-2013, 11:45 AM
The feds require me to have an actual address for all firearms entered in my bound book. They also require that I verify it via a government issued document. When I receive a gun from an individual I have to keep a copy of their ID just like I have to keep a copy of all ffls that I receive guns from. If the ID shows a PO box I must have another way to show the physical address. ATF will nail you on an audit if you don't have proof of residence on file. do it once and they will warn you do it again and they can and will revoke your license for willfull violations.

bussda
09-19-2013, 12:23 PM
The feds require me to have an actual address for all firearms entered in my bound book. They also require that I verify it via a government issued document. When I receive a gun from an individual I have to keep a copy of their ID just like I have to keep a copy of all ffls that I receive guns from. If the ID shows a PO box I must have another way to show the physical address. ATF will nail you on an audit if you don't have proof of residence on file. do it once and they will warn you do it again and they can and will revoke your license for willfull violations.

So, to understand, the ATF mandates a residence address for sellers. Is there a particular section of the regulations where copy of residence address is required? And we are talking about seller, not the buyer.

Note this is not being argumentative, but getting information.
Because if there is a written documentation requirement, I will need to get the information to a few people.

zx9rdr
09-19-2013, 2:35 PM
I've had only a PO Box on my IDs and vehicle registrations for years. There are MANY many MANY reasons...

1. Someone has their car broken in to. A theif takes the garage door opener and vehicle registration. Is there any risk there?

2. A person gets robbed or mugged. A theif takes their purse which has their home keys, drivers license with address, and car keys. Any risk to the residence or vehicle in the future if it were parked at the residence?

3. You go to the airport and an unscrupulous TSA or contracted security officer KNOWS you will be gone for 2 weeks on a trip based off your boarding pass and your address based off your ID and remembers it, passing it off to someone else. Any potential for shady activity here?

...and the list goes on...




I haven't the slightest clue why anyone would put their PO box on their driver's license.

scoutpup99
09-19-2013, 3:03 PM
So, to understand, the ATF mandates a residence address for sellers. Is there a particular section of the regulations where copy of residence address is required? And we are talking about seller, not the buyer.

Note this is not being argumentative, but getting information.
Because if there is a written documentation requirement, I will need to get the information to a few people.

Yes, the sellers info is entered into our bound book since that is who we received the gun from. We are not allowed to put po box info in our bound book we must use actual residence address. If no actual address we must include directions to the residence. I don't have my fed rules book with me. The documentation requirements can be found in the section referring to required info for the bound book.

All firearms that enter a ffl dealers shop they must be entered in the bound book unless the owner stays with the gun and it leaves the shop the same day.

RipVanWinkle
09-20-2013, 7:56 PM
This is the problem:

A PPT is arranged.

FFL sees PO Box number on ID.

FFL states need to see something with proof (government mailed/issued preferred) of residence address to proceed.

This is not at all FFL's.

The root of the problem seems to be that some FFL's, when audited, got the question: "How do you know it is his residence address?"

What legal requirement is there for the seller in a PPT to provide proof of residence address?
Can an auditor require seller proof of residence address?

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=28001-29000&file=28050-28070


28060. The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
chapter to do all of the following:
(a) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned
the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,
and to allow those persons and the dealer to preserve the
confidentiality of those records and to comply with the requirements
of this chapter and all of the following:
(1) Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2
(commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(2) Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4.
(3) Article 2 (commencing with Section 28150) of Chapter 6.
(4) Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6.
(b) Record sufficient information for purposes of Section 11106 in
the instance where a firearm is returned to a personal firearm
importer because a sale or transfer of that firearm by the personal
firearm importer could not be completed.
(c) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer
shall state all of the following:
(1) The name and address of the seller or transferor of the
firearm or the person loaning the firearm.
(2) Whether or not the person is a personal firearm importer.
(3) Any other information required by Article 2 (commencing with
Section 28150) of Chapter 6.



I think this is in case the purchaser is a prohibited person, and the dealer then would return the gun to the seller. In this case the DoJ wants to check to see if the seller is also a prohibited person, in which case the gun cannot be released to either the purchaser or the seller.

EBR Works
09-20-2013, 9:10 PM
Yes, the sellers info is entered into our bound book since that is who we received the gun from. We are not allowed to put po box info in our bound book we must use actual residence address. If no actual address we must include directions to the residence. I don't have my fed rules book with me. The documentation requirements can be found in the section referring to required info for the bound book.

All firearms that enter a ffl dealers shop they must be entered in the bound book unless the owner stays with the gun and it leaves the shop the same day.

This is all 100% correct. If a firearm is brought in for transfer by a seller, an FFL needs to know where you reside. No proof of your true residence address, no transfer. FFLs that are not doing this are going to get crucified at audit time by the ATF.

Siskiyous
09-21-2013, 10:05 PM
Why can a federal law discriminate against the homeless?

My current deck hand has no drivers license, too poor to ever have gotten one.

He has problems buying firearms because of this. And, he just makes enough working for me to buy guns, not enough to comply with every fee oriented scheme government has devised.

He can not afford a car, so he doesn't have a license. His State ID has an address, but he lives with his mother and nothing else is in his name.

He is a poster child for changing these laws, anyone want to step up and change things?

SFFRONTMAN
09-21-2013, 10:16 PM
Not at all. If you cannot provide adequate proof of address and cannot afford any bills he should have no business purchasing a firearm.

arsilva32
09-21-2013, 10:56 PM
None of the above should be affected by having a card kept on you up to date.

I move frequently and carry a change of address card.

Stalkers shouldn't be getting in your wallet. Abusers shouldn't be getting in your wallet. You can get locks for your mailbox. Privacy goes out the window when it comes to the government, which is what an ID card is for... verifying information that the government wants.

lol you just said it with your own words , its to easy for anyone ,stalker,crazy person you accidentally cut off driving,sociopath ect ect to get your address from dmv. allot of people don't trust the government to keep this info secure.

exactly! good points
I've had only a PO Box on my IDs and vehicle registrations for years. There are MANY many MANY reasons...

1. Someone has their car broken in to. A theif takes the garage door opener and vehicle registration. Is there any risk there?

2. A person gets robbed or mugged. A theif takes their purse which has their home keys, drivers license with address, and car keys. Any risk to the residence or vehicle in the future if it were parked at the residence?

3. You go to the airport and an unscrupulous TSA or contracted security officer KNOWS you will be gone for 2 weeks on a trip based off your boarding pass and your address based off your ID and remembers it, passing it off to someone else. Any potential for shady activity here?

...and the list goes on...

PatsFanOC
10-11-2013, 6:57 PM
Looking to put another handgun in the penalty box. However, I've moved into a place where I'm renting a room in someone's home with no utilities in my name, but my address is current with the DMV (save for the fact I have to get a print out due to my license featuring my old address), is there any other form of to prove residence that is DOJ acceptable or am I toast on purchasing anything until I am finally able move out of the People's Republic next year?

mrdd
10-11-2013, 7:42 PM
So, to understand, the ATF mandates a residence address for sellers. Is there a particular section of the regulations where copy of residence address is required? And we are talking about seller, not the buyer.

Note this is not being argumentative, but getting information.
Because if there is a written documentation requirement, I will need to get the information to a few people.

The following gives the format of the receipt and disposition in the bound book required for all licensees:

27 CFR 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.

(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2013-title27-vol3/pdf/CFR-2013-title27-vol3-sec478-125.pdf

ETA: At the top of page 3 of the above PDF the required format for the entry is given. The licensee must record the name and address of the person from whom the firearm was received. Or, in the case of receipt from a licensee, the name of the license holder must be entered, along with the license number.

Basically, the state PPT law is driving this because federal law places specific requirements on all licensees whenever they receive or dispose of a firearm.

FortCourageArmory
10-12-2013, 5:59 PM
This is all 100% correct. If a firearm is brought in for transfer by a seller, an FFL needs to know where you reside. No proof of your true residence address, no transfer. FFLs that are not doing this are going to get crucified at audit time by the ATF.

What EBR Works and scoutpup99 both said. FFLs are not trying to give anyone a hard time if you're doing a PPT. But, we have the ATF requiring information in our bound book to be present. If your primary identification does not contain your current address, then we are required (that means we HAVE TO DO IT) to obtain another government-originated document showing current address. Failure to get the required documentation gets the FFL in trouble. We get in trouble and lose our FFLs, then who does your PPT? Again, not trying to piss anyone off or be difficult. It's the rules we as FFLs have to live under.

Darto
10-20-2013, 8:55 AM
" I haven't the slightest clue why anyone would put their PO box on their driver's license. "

Drive around rural areas, such as in the mountains, and you will see entire cities where nobody has mailboxes nor home delivery. Their only mailing address is a P.O. box. The DMV needs an address to which they can mail things to you. Those people (and there are millions in the USA) have P.O. boxes on their DL's.

It used to be for gun purchases such people had to go get a brown card from the DMV. It was a supplement to the CDL which had the residence address on it. However federal law know says the brown card is not enough. Such people have to get a brown card (to get the second address (residence) on file and in the DMV system. Then they need a 'drivers record printout' (good for 5 years) which will also list the address on the brown card. Those people take all 3 documents into the FFL.

This is what Bass Pro told me when I purchased a long gun there. A CDL with P.O. box address: not enough. A CDL + brown card: still not enough. BP said it used to be sufficient but as of very recently it is not. A CDL + brown card + driver's record printout: is now sufficient. There is a small fee for the brown card and the printout and the DMV will make these for you right in the office, there is no need to wait for them to mail them.