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kjgun
09-15-2013, 8:40 PM
Went shooting, but no time to clean so put some Break Free CLP for about a week (after shooting) and came back did a quick wipe and saw some typical black lead stains on patches. Then put some Break Free Foaming solvent on it for about 24 hours (busy again), and then when putting patches through noticed they came out blue and lots of blue liquid in the barrel.

Is that rust? Copper? Usually I see green, but not blue. Or combination of lead mixed with rust?

micro911
09-15-2013, 8:42 PM
It sounds like oxidized copper. Copper turns green when comes into contact with Ammonia, also. At any rate, I would clean it thoroughly. Ammonia residue can harm the bore.

And, I would not leave any ammonia product in the bore more than 30 minutes.

BroncoBob
09-15-2013, 9:02 PM
Copper salts

6mmintl
09-16-2013, 7:42 AM
OMG!, its called copper residue, supposed to be on the patch, not in the bore.

Spyder
09-16-2013, 7:57 AM
It's normal, but there are NOT many bore cleaning solvents that are alright to leave in the bore overnight, much less for a week.

CLP won't hurt it, but won't clean it. I use Sweets sometimes, but am slowly switching over to non-ammonia cleaners. Check out Wipe Out. It's pretty fantastic stuff, and is perfectly safe to leave overnight for really dirty stuff.

http://www.amazon.com/WIPE-OUT-5OZ-BORE-CLEANER/dp/B00162NQ0W/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1379343362&sr=8-7&keywords=wipe+out

kjgun
09-16-2013, 8:45 AM
What kind of damage for a 24 hour time period?

I figured regular CLP would be fine since it's also a lubricant.

But for CLP foaming I hope it wouldn't harm it in 24 hours since it's purely a solvent as I recall.

Thanks for the information as next time I let something sit overnight that's a solvent, I'll make sure it's non-ammonium.

postal
09-16-2013, 2:11 PM
It's normal, but there are NOT many bore cleaning solvents that are alright to leave in the bore overnight, much less for a week.



Why would you say that? A lot of solvents might dry in the bore after that long... which would mean more solvent and more cleaning later.... but why wouldnt it be 'allright'?

milotrain
09-16-2013, 3:58 PM
Why would you say that? A lot of solvents might dry in the bore after that long... which would mean more solvent and more cleaning later.... but why wouldnt it be 'allright'?

Most copper solvents are made with ammonia. Ammonia will not dry but react with barrel steel doing not great things to it. This is less so with chrome lined barrels and SS barrels but it's still a concern. SS barrels are not true SS typically and can rust in the wrong circumstances, covered with ammonia is one. Chrome Moly barrels with no lining will have an exceptionally bad time with an ammonia soak. However weather that degrades accuracy to a point that you would notice is uncertain.

postal
09-16-2013, 5:57 PM
Seriously? Never heard ammonia was bad on steel.... Seriously... I read a lot... and first I've heard of it. I know shooting 'moly coated bullets' is asking for trouble in moisture/humid/rain environments... but lacking moly.. a plain steel or stainless barrel, or chrome lined has issues with ammonia?

Do you have any references for me to check out? Like I said... I read a lot, and never heard of it being an issue...

And your sig line....

I LOVE SPORKS!!!! I hate people that like to over complicate things... To the point that I invented (**PATENT PENDING**) the "knork'... the knife/fork. A fork on one end, a knife on the other, with a handle in the middle. Figure out how to hold the meat and cut it with the knife at the same time.... yeah.... Perfect gift the people that like to overcomplicate something as simple and necessary as eating.... Of course the 'tactical version' would be titanium....

anti
09-16-2013, 6:01 PM
Ammonia is usually hard on yellow metals like copper (which is why it's used in solvents to remove copper fouling), bronze, and brass. I think certain types of steels are susceptible to damage from ammonia.

milotrain
09-16-2013, 7:08 PM
Seriously? Never heard ammonia was bad on steel.... Seriously... I read a lot... and first I've heard of it. I know shooting 'moly coated bullets' is asking for trouble in moisture/humid/rain environments... but lacking moly.. a plain steel or stainless barrel, or chrome lined has issues with ammonia?

Do you have any references for me to check out? Like I said... I read a lot, and never heard of it being an issue...
No less than Kreiger says: "Some copper solvents contain a high percentage of ammonia. This makes them a great copper solvent, but if left in the bore too long, can damage/corrode the steel. Do not leave these chemicals in a bore any longer than 10-15 minutes MAXIMUM! DO NOT EVER use straight ammonia to clean a barrel."
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm


And your sig line....

I LOVE SPORKS!!!!
Me too. A friend got me a folding titanium one as a joke camping gift but I use it often. I think it was in response to someone wanting some tactical version of something that was perfectly reasonable in it's own right.

LynnJr
09-17-2013, 6:32 PM
Postal
Ammonia in a chro-moly barrel will dry the bore and allow it to rust if not oiled.
On stainless barrels this is not a problem.You also can't get ammonia stronger than 28% without as pressure vessel to contain it so nobody is using straight ammonia that I have ever heard of.
The 50bmg shooters use 28% more than most other disciplines in my experience.

postal
09-17-2013, 6:39 PM
No less than Kreiger says: "Some copper solvents contain a high percentage of ammonia. This makes them a great copper solvent, but if left in the bore too long, can damage/corrode the steel. Do not leave these chemicals in a bore any longer than 10-15 minutes MAXIMUM! DO NOT EVER use straight ammonia to clean a barrel."
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm


Good enough for me.... Krieger knows a lot more about barrels than I do!

milotrain
09-17-2013, 9:10 PM
Lynn, I've always heard that the steel in SS used for barrels (usually 416) is not really stainless but rather rust resistant. It would therefore seem to me a good idea to not leave ammonia in a SS barrel. Of course that is a data based assumption not data based on experience.

LynnJr
09-17-2013, 9:24 PM
Milotrain
I have used a chamber plug and then completely filled a stainless barrel with 28% ammonia and let it sit a month.I found no ill affects on the bore.
Gunsmith Dave Tooley wrote me saying this wasn't a valid test as the bore would never be exposed to air beings as it was full.
I took the same barrel and mounted it in a vise and poured ammonia over it each day for around 7 weeks.On some days I would do this several times and on others I wouldn't do it at all but it got plenty of ammonia and air.
I could not find any etching or ill affects attributed to the ammonia.
I have stainless steel actions with stainless steel bolts that rust on me all the time.
The original work everyone quotes on this subject is usually from Hatcher but again he was not using stainless barrels he was using chro-moly.
If you machine a piece of chro-moly and don't put any protective coating on it rust will form the same day and California has relativey low humidity.

milotrain
09-17-2013, 9:29 PM
Lynn,
That's experimental data! My gut was from the fact that I see Remington 700 stainless actions with rust on them but not knowing the alloy or the source it was obviously not a legitimate comparison. Upon further reading I found this on Lilja's site.
"We routinely leave Butch's solution in the barrel over night too. Again, I repeat, we have never seen a problem with ammonia in the concentrations found in commercial cleaners, in either our chrome-moly or stainless steel barrels. This includes examination with our borescope."

Which obviously corroborates your experiment. My tendency would still be to avoid such action where another provided the same cleaning method but I won't be as concerned about leaving Gel in the barrel for a long time. I tend to shoot high round counts between cleanings (500 or so) and cleaning really is a ***** at that point.

Wrangler John
09-18-2013, 2:55 AM
There are new solvents and copper removers that do not harm the steel and are non toxic. I use BoreTech products: Eliminator Bore Cleaner, CU+2 Copper Remover, and C4 Carbon Remover. http://www.boretech.com/category/solvents.shtml These solvents can be left in the barrel because they are non corrosive and have a rust preventative as part of the formulation.

I begin cleaning with the Eliminator, following directions, until the copper blue is almost gone on the patches. Then follow with CU+2 Copper remover, which removes all the copper resulting in patches that come out with a bit of brown or black carbon fouling, then switch to C4 Carbon Remover until the patches are clean. Of course you can't use a bronze bore brush, or a brass patch jag or cleaning rod with a brass ferrule as the brass will leach blue copper color on to the patches even after the bore is clean. BoreTech offers Proof Positive rods, jags and nylon brushes that contain no brass.

Once clean, I lube the bore before firing to keep fouling down. Holland's Witch's Brew Bore Lube is one such product. When firing boron nitride coated bullets, I use a suspension of boron nitride in isopropyl alcohol as a lube.

I remember reading that firing a bore that is damp with ammonia solvent can cause nitriding of the steel, surface hardening the steel and causing checking. Possible? Sure, but avoiding ammonia products makes that problem moot, true or not.

postal
09-18-2013, 3:07 PM
WJ- I think thats the second time you mentioned you shoot a lubed bore.

Do you have POI shifts on your first few shot because the lube?

Do you clean after every range session?

Just curious.

I just cleaned my barrel 2 weeks ago... Been over 400 rounds since the last cleaning. After cleaning, I wiped oil down the bore a few times, and then a few clean patches to take as much oil back out of it as I could.

Cold bore clean- was 1" right of POA. All shots after were at POA (regardless of barrel temp- mine doesnt walk....) once the barrel was fouled with 1 shot, it settled right into it's usual groove...

Most police snipers either clean at the range, then foul the barrel before putting the rifle away so they know where that cold bore is going---

Or they spend an awfull lot of time cleaning, and shooting/reshooting clean cold bores until they're dialed perfect. Those ones leave the bore clean and oiled, but run an alcohol patch through the bore to shoot clean and dry...

Or, no cleaning until necessary due to accuracy, and always shoot a fouled rifle.

Seems to me shooting fouled as long as possible is the easy way to go- until accuracy finally tapers off, then suck it up and clean it, knowing you need to foul it for it to settle in. ( I do clean and lube the bolt when it gets grimey)

LynnJr
09-18-2013, 4:01 PM
If you chronograph your loads with a good chronograph you will see what a clean bore does to velocity versus a fouled bore.
The big magnums will typically lose 125 fps out of a clean dry bore.
I would be surprised if any shooter who needed first shot hits would use a clean bore.

milotrain
09-18-2013, 4:02 PM
I don't know anyone who shoots a CMP match (no sighter match) on a clean bore.

postal
09-18-2013, 4:07 PM
Precision rifle has no sighters either.... and most matches put HEAVY points on the cold bore... You miss cold bore, good luck catching back up...

LE / mil snipers dont get a spotter either.

milotrain
09-18-2013, 4:30 PM
LE / mil snipers dont get a spotter either.

I think that was lynn's point :D. I know that the first shots at the president's hundred are usually pretty low which shows you how hard it is for first shot on a basically unknown range. Just anecdotal information.

postal
09-18-2013, 5:16 PM
I would be surprised if any shooter who needed first shot hits would use a clean bore.

This was a common method for some LE agencies a few yrs back.... Hopefully by now, enough people are saying shoot it dirty- leave it dirty until you *have* to clean it...

They would clean and oil the barrel and store it that way- after every range session. When called out, run a couple alcohol patches through then a dry patch- to always shoot a clean dry bore without worrying about rust when it was stored. What a PITA!!!!!!!! (and now- maybe they dont know where the 2nd shot is going.. and sometimes LE needs a 2nd..)

And still- even on this forum, a lot of us are saying leave it. Dont clean it til you have to- 300-400+ rounds- you'll know when you need to clean it because it wont group....

But a lot of people dont believe many of us are doing that... Too much tradition going shooting and spending the evening cleaning the guns after you shot them... or a symptom of OCD ....


---edit--- I dont doubt lynns call on a clean dry bore shooting slow... the powder fouling tightens up the bore, and any copper build up does the same and combined they probably have a 'lubricating effect' as well. (not as much as moly- but that stuff is going out of fad)

My clean mostly dry bore- elevation was perfect- windage was 1" right at 100.... But... at a 100 with a 100yd zero... elevation deviation from a slower bullet wouldnt make much difference.

It is *possible* I pulled the shot right... but I really dont think I did... I usually nail my cold bores- I take more time with them, than anything else since it does get a really high point value in the comps.

highpower790
09-18-2013, 5:27 PM
I don't know anyone who shoots a CMP match (no sighter match) on a clean bore.Ill do it Milo,wont make any difference after the first ten being offhand.

postal
09-18-2013, 5:35 PM
LOL!!!!!!!

milotrain
09-18-2013, 5:43 PM
Ill do it Milo,wont make any difference after the first ten being offhand.

When you loose to O'Connell by x count in offhand you can buy me lunch :D. Hell, the way I shot offhand on Saturday it wouldn't have mattered if I had a clean barrel or a barrel with a squib lodged in it.

highpower790
09-18-2013, 5:52 PM
well see.. .Jim is getting old,untill then one unopened bottle of rum awaits !

LynnJr
09-18-2013, 10:26 PM
If your talking about Jim O'connel who shoots at Sacramento and manages the California grizzlies team hm and Bob Dorton are the only two honorable shooters left at the sacramento range that I know of.

When your bore is clean and dry you get alot more friction acting on your bullet thus the lower velocity and errant shots.

Wrangler John
09-19-2013, 5:44 AM
WJ- I think thats the second time you mentioned you shoot a lubed bore.

Do you have POI shifts on your first few shot because the lube?

Do you clean after every range session?

Just curious.

I just cleaned my barrel 2 weeks ago... Been over 400 rounds since the last cleaning. After cleaning, I wiped oil down the bore a few times, and then a few clean patches to take as much oil back out of it as I could.

Cold bore clean- was 1" right of POA. All shots after were at POA (regardless of barrel temp- mine doesnt walk....) once the barrel was fouled with 1 shot, it settled right into it's usual groove...

Most police snipers either clean at the range, then foul the barrel before putting the rifle away so they know where that cold bore is going---

Or they spend an awfull lot of time cleaning, and shooting/reshooting clean cold bores until they're dialed perfect. Those ones leave the bore clean and oiled, but run an alcohol patch through the bore to shoot clean and dry...

Or, no cleaning until necessary due to accuracy, and always shoot a fouled rifle.

Seems to me shooting fouled as long as possible is the easy way to go- until accuracy finally tapers off, then suck it up and clean it, knowing you need to foul it for it to settle in. ( I do clean and lube the bolt when it gets grimey)

The lubed bore can cause a POI shift depending on an enormous array of factors including the barrel itself, the lube used, how it is applied, bullet type and construction, and things too esoteric to mention. For example, all of my varmint rifle barrels are aftermarket double lapped models that are precision chambered and not prone to heavy fouling. Some are polygonal rifled which are even less prone to fouling. The amount of lube left in the barrel is minute, one applies it with a dampened patch followed by one or two dry patches to remove the excess. Dry lubes, such as Lock-Ease Liquid Graphite, can usually evaporate their carrier solvent over a target change period.

When working up loads I usually clean the barrel when changing powder or after 20-30 shots.

I read about David Tubb firing 600 rounds before cleaning using Gary Schneider polygonal rifled barrels and coated bullets. More about that later.

That being said, the degree of shift is not large enough to concern me, often it is no greater than opening a .3" group to .75" or 1" for the first one or two shots of a ten shot group. It is more important that I lube the barrel to limit fouling buildup over a long course of fire. My experience is that the first shot on ground squirrels from a clean lubed barrel usually is a hit, unless I spaz out making the shot. However, my practice is to clean and lube the barrel, then fire several sight-in shots prior to a hunting trip, then leave the bore dirty. When I clean after a day's hunting, usually around 150-200 shots per rifle, the clean lubed bore is fouled on the first squirrels without any problem. I always clean and swab barrels with a rust inhibitor when storing them away.

My latest experiment is with Tubb's Hexagonal Boron Nitride Bullet Coating Kit. http://www.davidtubb.com/boron-nitride-coating-bullets Tubb states that the benefit of boron nitride coating is that a cold dirty barrel will shoot into the subsequent group, no more unpredictable dispersion. Over the last two weeks, I have been working up a load for a rifle to use up my supply of TAC powder. Using boron nitride coated Barnes .224" 50 grain Varmint Grenades in a .22-250 Ackley Improved, I found that the coating had another effect, that of reducing barrel friction. I fired ten shot groups rather quickly only to discover that my barrel temperature ahead of the chamber hovered around 86 degrees F. using an infrared thermometer. With uncoated bullets it would easily exceed 100 degrees and require more time between shots. Also I had several loads with very low S.D.. I was able to fire the entire test lot without cleaning or generating fliers. At home the barrel cleaned up easily with minimal work. Boron nitride will likely become my new bullet coating and bore lube.