Assault Weapons I.D. Flowchart [Archive]

thisismyboomstick

01-13-2008, 06:59 PM

I went to my FFL the other day to complete the DROS paperwork on my new G1 Cali-Fal. I had the seller ship it with a fixed 5 round mag and no flash hider. When I arrived at my FFL to check it out the grip was removed. I asked him if it was shipped that way. He said no and that he had removed it since to be California legal it couldn't have the pistol grip. I explained to him that since it had a fixed magazine that held less than 10 rounds that the grip was OK. He still seemed like he wasn't convinced. This got me to thinking of how would be an easy way to show somebody why a rifle is or isn't an AW. The best thing I could think of was a flowchart so I drew one up in MS Word. Let me know what you guys think of it. Feel free to point out any errors or any improvements that could be made. The chart assumes that the rifle has already been identified as centerfire and semi-automatic. It also doesn't address oddities like the Evan's conversions of listed AW's.

I did a quick search for something similar and couldn't find anything so forgive me if this has been done already.

leelaw

01-13-2008, 07:03 PM

I like it. I'm going to clean it up a bit, I hope you don't mind, and see if I can distribute it to an officer in charge of training at the local PD.

---

p3:

Alright, I've got a first revision up.

Things I'm considering:
-Color. Cops like colors.
-Consolidating the "features" (except for grenade launcher, since it will also carry a DD charge as shown)
-Adding more PC and CCR quotaitons.
-Adding .50BMG

Since the header is for "semi-auto, centerfire rifles" I didn't add it to the flowchart.

What do you guys think?

http://www.apt401.com/CAAW-Flowchart.pdf

thisismyboomstick

01-13-2008, 07:04 PM

Don't mind a bit. Anybody feel free to use it however you wish.

avidone

01-13-2008, 07:09 PM

Wow! This is a really useful document. Wouldn't it be really great if the DOJ would create a flow chart like this and distribute it to other law enforcement agencies? It would make it easy for the average person to stay in compliance with the law.

Grouch

01-13-2008, 07:11 PM

I like it. I'm going to clean it up a bit, I hope you don't mind, and see if I can distribute it to an officer in charge of training at the local PD.

I'm printing the current one but please post your revision.

MT1

01-13-2008, 07:12 PM

Good idea - Looks nice.

Post up the cleaned up version when you're done if you could. :)

ei9htzer0

01-13-2008, 07:13 PM

Very nifty! Thank you for sharing!

Prowler

01-13-2008, 07:29 PM

Great idea...since several of the members are upgrading the prototype, how about inserting the codes/laws in smaller text in the flowchart "bubbles" where the potential violation would exist. It could go on a laminated sheet with the flowchart on one side and the verbage of the laws/code on the back in smaller print, including the listed lowers. If it looked good enough, you could probably sell these. You never know, the DOJ might actually have some logical thinkers that would adopt this system.

thisismyboomstick

01-13-2008, 07:34 PM

Yeah, a reference page would have been a good idea but I got lazy.

CSACANNONEER

01-13-2008, 07:34 PM

Sgt Raven

01-13-2008, 08:22 PM

You need to add the question for type ABC is it registered? ;) Because there are legal registered, illegal not registered, and legal built OLLs.

Wulf

01-13-2008, 08:28 PM

You realize dont you that some BOF'er is going to propose this at a staff meeting on monday. Get approval to go ahead and develop it. Spend the next 5 months "working" on it. Then he'll get a big pat on the back for turning in your chart one month faster that the 6 months he proposed.

SemiAutoSam

01-13-2008, 08:42 PM

This chart would inform more if it had a reference to the law.

IE for the first part Roberti Roos and Kasler.

The regulations for the part that describes what a fixed magazine is.

SamIAm

01-13-2008, 08:54 PM

For those of us with registered "assault weapons," you might want to say that they are "assault weapons," illegal if not registered.

BLFD1

01-13-2008, 09:23 PM

I like it. I'm going to clean it up a bit, I hope you don't mind, and see if I can distribute it to an officer in charge of training at the local PD.

Please post the cleaned up version.

mason1800

01-13-2008, 09:30 PM

Man this is a good chart!! Might have to carry that with the ladies just in case..

thisismyboomstick

01-13-2008, 09:53 PM

The whole reg'd AW thing did occur to me but I was approaching it from the angle of convincing dealers and such of the legality of off list rifles. Reg'd AW's will never be transferred so I didn't feel there was a need to address them. There really isn't any point in making a flowchart for the purpose of convincing a LEO that a reg'd AW is legal since a copy of your registration letter would be much more effective than a flowchart.

4 Brigada

01-13-2008, 10:07 PM

Outstanding work,thanks thisimyboomstick. This is made by one of us, why cant the freaking DOJ or BoF have come up with something like that. I printed a copy.

On another note:
thisimyboomstick, can I get the recipe for sloguy BBQ. Cause after your great reviews I'll have to wait until he puts out his book and he makes everyone buy it :D

sloguy

01-13-2008, 10:52 PM

am i looking at it wrong, all i see is a set of 3 lists. am i opening it in the wrong program?

thisismyboomstick

01-13-2008, 11:08 PM

I updated the chart so that it now addresses registered AW's.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/thisismyboomstick/Rifles/flowchart.jpg

Librarian

01-13-2008, 11:35 PM

And some of us don't read flow charts all that comfortably, so ...

I think that's the same set of criteria and logic.

chico.cm

01-13-2008, 11:36 PM

I like it, but have one point of disagreement. Having a magazine with greater than 10 round capacity does not automatically qualify the rifle as "illegal".
Many of us bought magazines galore, for guns we didn't have yet, well before the date of infamy.

SemiAutoSam

01-13-2008, 11:51 PM

Librarian

01-13-2008, 11:55 PM

SemiAutoSam

01-13-2008, 11:59 PM

Regarding this statement in your flowchart.

I have never seen a basis for this statement in the California Penal code or CCR.

Do you have such a PC section where this is stated ?

Maybe this statement is used on the basis of caution ?

If rifle has a folding or collapsible stock this measurement is taken with the stock collapsed / folded

I updated the chart so that it now addresses registered AW's.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/thisismyboomstick/Rifles/flowchart.jpg

Librarian

01-14-2008, 12:09 AM

Ok lets put this to the test.

For the purposes of the test this Rifle has a fixed Magazine that holds less than 10 rounds and is the mfg is FN.

Below is a auction from GunBroker.com

How would you classify this Rifle ?

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/089871000/89871611/pix273471500.jpg

Nope, mine doesn't work - accidentally left out the ref to appendix A, the original named list (original flowchart didn't leave it out).

That's one fix to make ...

I don't know FNs, so I can't tell if the pictured rifle is on App A.

And I can't tell from the pic whether that's a flash hider or a muzzle break, and I can't tell how long it is.

SemiAutoSam

01-14-2008, 12:17 AM

SO if you cant tell and your somewhat of a gun nut how would a cop be able to tell ?

As I stated it has a fixed 10 round or less mag so it does not matter if it has a flash hider or muzzle break.

Although it looks like a FN FAL its not marked as such and hence is not listed in Roberti Roos which im assuming is where the list your calling App A comes from.

Length is just over 30 inches. I still haven't found where the length matters according to California Penal code.

Have a reference ?

Nope, mine doesn't work - accidentally left out the ref to appendix A, the original named list (original flowchart didn't leave it out).

That's one fix to make ...

I don't know FNs, so I can't tell if the pictured rifle is on App A.

And I can't tell from the pic whether that's a flash hider or a muzzle break, and I can't tell how long it is.

sloguy

01-14-2008, 12:35 AM

I updated the chart so that it now addresses registered AW's.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/thisismyboomstick/Rifles/flowchart.jpg

what about the centerfire requirement? what about homebuilt pistols?

i think the chart needs "is it a rifle" "is it centerfire"

Librarian

01-14-2008, 12:36 AM

SO if you cant tell and your somewhat of a gun nut how would a cop be able to tell ?

As I stated it has a fixed 10 round or less mag so it does not matter if it has a flash hider or muzzle break. True. Another error on my part.
Although it looks like a FN FAL its not marked as such and hence is not listed in Roberti Roos which im assuming is where the list your calling App A comes from.
Yes, "App A" is the original R-R named list. More usably it's in 11 CCR § 5495,
§ 5495. California Penal Code Section 12276(a)-(c) Assault Weapons List.

(a) Rifles

Armalite AR-180
Beretta AR-70
Bushmaster Assault Rifle
Calico M-900
Colt AR-15 (all)
Daewoo AR100, AR110C
Daewoo K-1, K-2
Daewoo Max 1, Max 2
Fabrique Nationale 308 Match, Sporter
Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC
HK 91, 94, PSG-1
HK 93
IMI Galil
IMI Uzi
J&R ENG M-68
MAADI CO AK 47
MAADI CO ARM
Made in China 56
Made in China 56S
Made in China 84S
Made in China 86S
Made in China AK
Made in China AK47
Made in China AKM
Made in China AKS
Made in Spain CETME Sporter
MAS 223
Norinco 56
Norinco 56 S
Norinco 84 S
Norinco 86 S
Norinco SKS w/detachable magazine
Poly technologies AK47
Poly technologies AKS
RPB Industries, Inc. sM10, sM11
SIG AMT, PE-57
SIG SG 550, SG 551
Sterling MK-6
Steyr AUG
SWD Incorporated M11
Valmet M62S, M71S, M78S
Weaver Arms NighthawkYou're right - it's already established that the markings on the weapon must match EXACTLY what is listed in the law. But one would need the list to make the determination.

Length is just over 30 inches. I still haven't found where the length matters according to California Penal code.

Have a reference ?
SB23 change: 12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length
of less than 30 inches.

And I can't see where anything specifies how they measure it, either. I think bweise posted something on that in the last week or so.

Librarian

01-14-2008, 12:41 AM

what about the centerfire requirement? what about homebuilt pistols?

i think the chart needs "is it a rifle" "is it centerfire"Original Word document carried the title California Assault Weapons Identification
Flowchart for Centerfire Semi-Automatic Rifles

The title didn't get picked up when the chart got posted.

gazzavc

01-14-2008, 08:29 AM

On the chart that Librarian kindy posted, instead of the line where is says, "Does it have a pistol grip" can it be edited to say "Does it have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" , or words to that effect?

This gun has a "nub" that replaces the PG.

Gary

http://photos.imageevent.com/gazzavc/editingjunk/websize/DSCF0490.jpg

Anonymous Coward

01-14-2008, 08:35 AM

SemiAutoSam

01-14-2008, 08:44 AM

Is this Rifle A Bren ?

The magazine looks somewhat like a L1A1 30 round mag.

It would look great beside my FN Rifle in the safe.

On the chart that Librarian kindly posted, instead of the line where is says, "Does it have a pistol grip" can it be edited to say "Does it have a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" , or words to that effect?

This gun has a "nub" that replaces the PG.

Gary

http://photos.imageevent.com/gazzavc/editingjunk/websize/DSCF0490.jpg

gazzavc

01-14-2008, 08:57 AM

Sam

Yes its an L4A3 Semi-Bren in 7.62 Nato. Its one of a kind as far as I know, it was built up by Len Savage of Historic Arms in Georgia.
I had bought an L4 Conversion kit back in the early 80's from IMA and finally decided to get it built. It came with the Barrel, ejector block and 4 L4A1 .308mags, so I finally ended up with this beauty !!

http://photos.imageevent.com/gazzavc/editingjunk/websize/DSCF0489.jpg

dixieD

01-14-2008, 09:11 AM

SemiAutoSam

01-14-2008, 09:38 AM

What makes you believe that this is a chararistic of a AW?

Cite the law please.

I have a FN rifle identical to the rifle pictured below and nowhere in law have I found that a rifle that fired when the stock was collapsed was considered a AW.

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/089871000/89871611/pix273471500.jpg

The flow chart should be changed to say "does the rifle have a folding stock and is still able to fire" yes ---> assault weapon.

SU16s have folding stocks but cannot fire. With the current wording one would go the the assault weapon result.

Diablo

01-14-2008, 09:51 AM

Nice. I'll wait for the cleaned up version. Man, I'll probably end up carrying a full binder of papers to the range...:D

blackberg

01-14-2008, 09:52 AM

The flow chart should be changed to say "does the rifle have a folding stock and is still able to fire" yes ---> assault weapon.

SU16s have folding stocks but cannot fire. With the current wording one would go the the assault weapon result.

I think it should be more along the lines of:
"if the folded length of the rifle is less than 30" and it is still able to fire =AW"

like SAS's rifle and also the AK' with the stock extension and im sure there are many others that can be folded to greater than 30" and still fire

-bb

lawnrevenge

01-14-2008, 09:52 AM

Nice!!!

Maybe somebody can HTMLize it (where there's one question on a page and the yes/no links would bring you to a new question or decision on where it's an AW) so that we can host it on calguns? No?
I might bang something out by the end of the week. I was thinking that a program online might be fun (but you can't take it with you to the range without a computer)

shark92651

01-14-2008, 09:57 AM

I think the idea of the flowchart is an excellent one, but to me it looks WAY too busy. The idea is to break it down and make it simple. One change that I would make that would reduce the complexity by about 75% is to have a single question about evil features, such as:

Does the rifle contain one of the following:
Pistol Grip (rear or forward)
Flash-hider
Collapsible stock
etc...

I think that would make it much easier to read. As it is right now it is making it appear to be way more confusing than it should. Just my opinion, mind you...

And I agree with SAS, put a footnote number next to each question and include the relevant law or explanation following the graphic.

ke6guj

01-14-2008, 12:20 PM

Regarding this statement in your flowchart.

I have never seen a basis for this statement in the California Penal code or CCR.

Do you have such a PC section where this is stated ?

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/people_v_rooney.txt is the CA case law on rifles/shotguns needing to be 26" with the stock folded/collapsed.

AFAIK, there is no case law on the 30" rule stating measurement with the stock folded/collapsed, but they'd probably just refer back to Rooney.

SemiAutoSam

01-14-2008, 12:43 PM

I guess I understand it like this, the term OAL = Over all Length means just that not the length collapsed but the "length over "ALL"".

I think its defined this way in federal law but don't have a quote handy at the moment.

I have been cutting up trees that fell in the last storm we had and have been in and out all morning.

Point of interest : According to DOJ the Flash hider / muzzle break does not have to be permanently installed to count toward the OAL only to count toward the 16 inch barrel length would the flash hider / muzzle break need to be permanently installed.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/people_v_rooney.txt is the CA case law on rifles/shotguns needing to be 26" with the stock folded/collapsed.

AFAIK, there is no case law on the 30" rule stating measurement with the stock folded/collapsed, but they'd probably just refer back to Rooney.

Gunaria

01-14-2008, 01:01 PM

My suggestion to this flowchart idea is too make one the size of a poster or 'D' or 'E' size drawing and add pictures to it. I say leave no info out. Even include C&R semi-autos and reg. AW's. After seeing the final print then one will truly see how ridiculous and stupid these CA AW laws really are.

Here's another idea for you website builder/programmers, (given you have this much free time on your hands) create a website that flows with this flow chart idea. Have url's to click on saying yes or no to the questions prompted about a firearm in question.

GenLee

01-14-2008, 01:24 PM

Thisismyboomstick, Wow awesome chart, I feel my studies of the PC and the magnitude of knowledge i have recieved here from all the CalGunners was enough and never printed to carry anything w/ my oll AR, I did print this and will carry it....Thanx again.....Well Done!!

Librarian

01-14-2008, 02:41 PM

I think the idea of the flowchart is an excellent one, but to me it looks WAY too busy.
Yeah, that's why I did one in text - the flow chart probably would fit in 14" paper more neatly, but the 11" limitation makes it tough to be big enough to read AND spread out enough..

I think that would make it much easier to read. As it is right now it is making it appear to be way more confusing than it should. Just my opinion, mind you...

And I agree with SAS, put a footnote number next to each question and include the relevant law or explanation following the graphic.Easier to just quote the whole law - which kind of defeats the purpose, since with 3 appendices it's already 4 pages.

Updated text version (not to be confused with Thisismyboomstick's flow chart original version)

tenpercentfirearms

01-14-2008, 09:18 PM

If I were a on the fence FFL and someone brought me in that flow chart, I would probably never do one of these transactions again. That thing is way too busy. I like the JPG matrix version better. Use my FAQ if it helps on refining this thing.

http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=page_8

532Fastback

01-14-2008, 10:18 PM

Librarian

01-14-2008, 11:15 PM

i think it would be good if the part about the detactable magazine said something about a magazine lock or a tool release lock like "Does this rifle have a detactable magazine? (Ex. no magazine lock or tool release button)
In a different document, I think.

"The nearly exhaustive, not legal advice, use-at-your-own-risk illustrated guide to identifying a California-legal 'not assault weapon'" or something.

Outline something like
rifle? --> part A
pistol? --> part B
shotgun? --> part C

Part A
A1:
center-fire? --> A2
not center-fire -- > not an AW

A2:
Discussion of what it means to be 'listed'.
A3:
Original R-R list, with pictures of the real ones showing the markings on the lower
...
A20:
Fixed vs removable magazines
e.g. (0th draft version...) "This is a bullet-button [trade mark and other legal requirements] magazine fixing or locking device. [picture] It requires a tool to operate the magazine release. By definition [reference], if the magazine release requires a tool to operate, the magazine is considered 'fixed' for assault weapon characteristics. The magazine fixed in the lower receiver by this device must allow ten or fewer rounds ONLY, to avoid creating an illegal assault weapon; legally owned large capacity ammunition feeding devices [reference] cannot be used for fixed-magazine semi-automatic center-fire rifles with any of the features in list 1."

Repeat for each device. Repeat the set for each 'class' of OLL - AR, AK, FN, whatever. Very redundant, deliberately.

A30:
Pistol grips
....

Or some such thing.

I think Tenpercent's page is aimed at buyers, and is quite good for that audience.

http://assaultweaponguide.com has a bunch of pics, but I don't see any close-ups to show the markings.

dixieD

01-15-2008, 09:24 AM

What makes you believe that this is a chararistic of a AW?

Cite the law please.
Sorry I cannot cite the law, but my statement was based on the fact that you cannot buy a SU16C because of the folding stock and firing ability, where as you can buy a SU16[A,B,CA] with the folding stock, which cannot fire when folded. It probably is the overall length of a firing weapon that counts. Hopefully someone can clarify with the text of the law.

SemiAutoSam

01-15-2008, 09:42 AM

Not to unvalue your statement but this is what came to mind when I read your post.

Librarian Star Wars: If an item doesn’t appear in our records, it doesn’t exist.

But to get back to the premise I really don't think such a law is out there Federal or State.

Sorry I cannot cite the law, but my statement was based on the fact that you cannot buy a SU16C because of the folding stock and firing ability, where as you can buy a SU16[A,B,CA] with the folding stock, which cannot fire when folded. It probably is the overall length of a firing weapon that counts. Hopefully someone can clarify with the text of the law.

Mute

01-15-2008, 09:46 AM

Great job on the flowchart. It looks like a John Madden explanation, but such is the sad state of Kalifornia gun laws.

hoffmang

01-15-2008, 11:51 AM

Librarian and all,

You may want to be a bit more specific when referring to "on the list." Probably use the words "listed by make and model on Appendix X."

-Gene

4 Brigada

01-15-2008, 11:54 AM

You may want to be a bit more specific when referring to "on the list." Probably use the words "listed by make and model on Appendix X."

Look out the lawyers are involved now, Its a good thing he's a CGer or that would have cost us 500 bucks :D

Librarian

01-15-2008, 12:35 PM

Drafts is drafts. Constructive criticism can only improve things.

Anybody think the larger document is actually worth the effort? Would it create legal problems or expose folks to them? Would anybody use it?

Even with meticulous research and documentation, would such a thing be any better or better-accepted than the DOJ AW ID Guide (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/awguide/awguide.php)? (Are the lists of 'series' weapons on that page the right info?)

4 Brigada

01-15-2008, 12:44 PM

I think its a great idea, something to distribute to the LE community so it clears any confusion when it comes to LEO /OLL encounter. Course it would be at least ten years before it got out there to the officers with the deparment blessing.

SemiAutoSam

01-15-2008, 12:55 PM

Librarian

01-15-2008, 01:50 PM

DO you honestly think that any LEO will give it more than a glance ?

From the LEO's that I have seen if something like this did not come down from the top of their department or directly from DOJ they don't pay it any mind what so ever.

I have a few friends that are LEO's and this is what they have told me.
One works for the state and the other is a county sheriff deputy.

I think this is probably right in general.

Really, there are two populations who need the help: FFL and LEO.

FFLs pretty much have to accept what DOJ and BATFE say, and disregard things they don't say. Risking a license, risking jail time by using 'unofficial' information just isn't gonna happen. (Well, not often; some of Present Company Excepted.)

LEOs have to stick to their training. It's one way to keep the job, of course, and varying from training isn't likely to keep the department legal staff happy. I doubt a technical issue fits into any officer's idea of reasonable discretion.

Means both will be wrong sometimes. Sucks for us.

If some DA's office or the DOJ did a good job with it as a brief, it might carry weight with other DAs.

383green

01-15-2008, 01:58 PM

I doubt that showing a table or flowchart like these to a LEO or FFL is likely to sway them. After all, anybody can put anything they want on a piece of paper. This is still very much worth developing, though, as an educational aid for us regular folks who want to stay legal. It will also help bring new folks up to speed more quickly and painlessly.

I would participate actively in this, but I'm down with a nasty cold right now, and I can't think too clearly. Y'all keep up the good work, and I'll go eat some more chicken soup. ;)

REDHORSE

01-15-2008, 07:28 PM

thisismyboomstick

01-15-2008, 08:19 PM

Redhorse, yours looks much better. Definitely not as "busy" as mine.

I think the key is to reference the Penal Code etc every step of the way and have a copy of the relevant sections to accompany the flowchart. Having the Calguns logo on there also makes it look more professional/convincing and less like some joe schmoe (me) just threw it together.

Good job.

Ironchef

01-15-2008, 08:31 PM

Beautiful chart redhorse!

I'm doing a ride along with Antioch PD tomorrow night and I've been thinking of "the right way" to casually quiz my LEO..without getting into any type of argument that'll get my ride cut short. Bringing this chart with accompanying citations printed would be wise in case the officer actually cares about learning about legal AWs...

Keep the chart updates coming! I have a small binder with the 10percent site's references and flow on it..but a single image like this (or the others too) is perfect. Thanks guys! And I don't even own an AR/AK yet!

thisismyboomstick

01-15-2008, 08:38 PM

Redhorse,

It looks like you left out the check for semi-auto in your chart.

Now that I think about it, the semi-auto check should come after the list checks and .50BMG check.

SemiAutoSam

01-15-2008, 08:46 PM

Redhorse
That is awesome.

Maybe put the Detachable mag CCR info into a somewhat larger triangle to the left ?

Just a thought other than that perfect.

I downloaded the Trial version of SmartDraw 2008 and created this simplified flowchart. Verify the info and if you have any suggestions, I'll modify the flowchart.

I didn't do the Appendix(s) yet. The flowchart combines the AR & AK List Appendix into one page (Appendix B), to free up space on the page.

I actually did two flowcharts. The big one took two pages in landscape mode with more details. This is the simplified single page flowchart.

I also added ".50 BMG" to the page, as I felt it was required AW info.

]

blackberg

01-15-2008, 08:57 PM

Redhorse
That is awesome.

Maybe put the Detachable mag CCR info into a somewhat larger triangle to the left ?

Just a thought other than that perfect.

Along the same lines I was thinking just putting a little blurb about MMG and Maglock/BBs to help clarify,

either way looks great

Nuuze

01-15-2008, 08:57 PM

Redhorse,

Great work!

532Fastback

01-15-2008, 09:26 PM

I like both of them.

Librarian

01-15-2008, 09:49 PM

I downloaded the Trial version of SmartDraw 2008 and created this simplified flowchart. Verify the info and if you have any suggestions, I'll modify the flowchart.

I didn't do the Appendix(s) yet. The flowchart combines the AR & AK List Appendix into one page (Appendix B), to free up space on the page.

I actually did two flowcharts. The big one took two pages in landscape mode with more details. This is the simplified single page flowchart.

I also added ".50 BMG" to the page, as I felt it was required AW info.

Thumbnail link:
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8933/centerfireidlk6.th.png (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centerfireidlk6.png)

Direct link: http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8933/centerfireidlk6.png

Very nice. Very nice, indeed.

Although, very technically, .50 BMG is not necessarily an 'assault weapon'. Bolt-action .50 BMG is subject to registration and transport restrictions and penalties, but is not an aw because the section defining it doesn't say so, and it isn't on any list, nor is it semi-automatic.

But they are treated the same way, so far as I can tell, so that's really just being very picky on my part.
12278. (a) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG rifle" means a center fire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5, or a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.Compare to 12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

Librarian

01-15-2008, 09:55 PM

Redhorse,

It looks like you left out the check for semi-auto in your chart.

Now that I think about it, the semi-auto check should come after the list checks and .50BMG check.
Just stick it in the title - as 'California Semi-automatic Center Fire...'

Toolbox X

01-15-2008, 10:03 PM

There needs to be an apendix or something that explains the difference between a muzzle brake/comp vs a flash hider.

You can use my picture if you want.

A muzzle brake has a little hole, just big enough for the bullet to go through.
A flash supressor/hider has a big open hole.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/FlashHidervsMuzzleBrake-320.jpg

Also:
There needs to be clarification that the 30" OAL is with the stock folded.
The forward pistol grip can also be called a vertical grip.

-Grant

dixieD

01-15-2008, 10:08 PM

The chart looks great, but my SU16CA comes out as an illegal assault weapon since with the stock folded it is less than 30".

ke6guj

01-15-2008, 10:13 PM

There needs to be clarification that the 30" OAL is with the stock folded.
-Grant

Thats in there, 5th question on the left, and the beige box to the right clarifieys that measurement is done with stock folder/collapsed.

edit: above post reminds me that it needs to be stated the 30" measurement applies to the shortest configuration in which the rifle can be fired. If the folded stock prohibits firing in that configuration, then it is ok to less than 30"

savageevo

01-15-2008, 10:23 PM

After all this done that pdf should be a sticky. It would be great to have it finalize so we can bring it with us and distribute it to all.

Librarian

01-15-2008, 10:24 PM

A thread in Rifles from last August revived earlier this evening. Mudcamper produced at least a complementary doc (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=711297&postcount=43) to the flow chart.

leelaw

01-15-2008, 10:29 PM

REDHORSE

01-15-2008, 10:36 PM

Some little quotes to add to the flowchart, if they can be made to fit. Just need help with the verbage and to make it as short as possible and to make sense. Before, I add them to the chart. It was tough enough to squeeze all the info I had originally, down to a single page flowchart.

Bullet Button, MAG-LOCK, Prince50, Raddlock, Range-Maglok and similar devices = 'magazine locks' do not meet the criteria of a 'Detachable magazine' as defined in CCR 11 § 5469. As these 'magazine locks' require a "TOOL" to remove the magazine. Therefore, they are considered fixed magazine rifle.

MonsterMan Grips & U15 Stock, do not meet the criteria as a Pistol Grip, as it does not allow the shooter to grasp the rifle with a in a pistol grip fashion, nor do they protrude

• Second page can have a more detailed info regarding the more important Penal Code sections & CCR(s). Maybe, as the back page of the flowchart.

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Penal Code section 12276, “assault weapon” shall also mean the following:
Rifles
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds.

(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

The DOJ defined the term detachable magazine in CCR 11 § 5469 as:

“Detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

According to the California DOJ, there are three categories of “Assault Weapons”:

Category I - are listed by make and model in PC 12276, also known as the Roberti-Roos list.

Category II - was the legally ambiguous definition targeting AR and AK “series” firearms in PC 12276(e). This definition was modified by the California Supreme Court in 2001 in what is known as the Harrott decision. The DOJ was required to create an additional list of firearms by make and model. It is available in CCR 11 § 5499 and is sometimes referred to as the “series list”. Then came AB2728, which prevents the DOJ from ever updating the list after Jan 2007.

Category III - are defined by characteristic features listed in PC 12276.1. These are sometimes referred to as “SB23 features” (Senate bill).

Quoted from: CaliforniaRifles.pdf

• Appendix A will have all the AW listed by name.

• Appendix B will have all the AR & AK makes listed.

So, if there is something that should be added. Quote the Penal Code section or the CCR.

SemiAutoSam

01-15-2008, 10:40 PM

Lee
When you say Grenade Launcher what is this>

The 37MM that looks like the M203 device?

Alright, I've got a first revision up.

Things I'm considering:
-Color. Cops like colors.
-Consolidating the "features" (except for grenade launcher, since it will also carry a DD charge as shown)
-Adding more PC and CCR quotations.
-Adding .50BMG

Since the header is for "semi-auto, centerfire rifles" I didn't add it to the flowchart.

What do you guys think?

http://www.apt401.com/CAAW-Flowchart.pdf

TacFan

01-15-2008, 10:43 PM

Nice work guys

Librarian

01-15-2008, 10:55 PM

Alright, I've got a first revision up.

Things I'm considering:
-Color. Cops like colors.
-Consolidating the "features" (except for grenade launcher, since it will also carry a DD charge as shown)
-Adding more PC and CCR quotaitons.
-Adding .50BMG

Since the header is for "semi-auto, centerfire rifles" I didn't add it to the flowchart.

What do you guys think?

http://www.apt401.com/CAAW-Flowchart.pdf

I liked where Redhorse collapsed the appendix B and C into one check; since they go to the same PC section, I think that makes sense.

Then I think the "Detachable magazine --> No" should branch right, leaving the detailed consideration of pistol grip, etc at the bottom, with a little more room.

leelaw

01-15-2008, 11:03 PM

Lee
When you say Grenade Launcher what is this>

The 37MM that looks like the M203 device?

Grenade launcher like the M203 (NOT the 37mm, that's a FLARE launcher) or the muzzle attachments like on the Yugo M59/66 SKS, or FAL, or other similar things.

SemiAutoSam

01-15-2008, 11:11 PM

Do you mean this one ?
Do you happen to have a PC cite for this ?

I failed to see within SB23 how this flash hider is a Grenade launcher.

thanks.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-2/947418/fal1.jpg

Grenade launcher like the M203 (NOT the 37mm, that's a FLARE launcher) or the muzzle attachments like on the Yugo M59/66 SKS, or FAL, or other similar things.

GI-M1

01-15-2008, 11:20 PM

Awesome work on the flow chart!!!

One observation......is it possible to use colors on the flow chart that make it easier to read? The 'blue' wall paper with the white print makes it difficult to read; especially when the print is so small. If you were to 'stretch' the flow chart further down the page, would that allow you to use larger print?

I think its also important to make a version that when printed, is easy to read as well. I was looking at a printed version and I had to really squint in order to see what it said.

Just my humble suggestion.....

Thanks a million again for all of your work on this!

leelaw

01-15-2008, 11:37 PM

Do you mean this one ?
Do you happen to have a PC cite for this ?

I failed to see within SB23 how this flash hider is a Grenade launcher.

thanks.

I dunno, is it a grenade launcher?

The attachment on some STG-58 FALs have flash hiders which are also grenade launchers. The Yugo M59/66 muzzle attachment was originally a grenade launcher (hence why CA needs a specialize brake to be mated on the muzzle, to disable/replace the GL). The M203 is specifically a grenade launcher. They come in different varieties.

The PC is in the flowchart, did you fail to see it?

REDHORSE

01-16-2008, 12:14 AM

Ver 0.2 (check later pages for the most current version!)

It probably needs some help with the OAL (30") and being able to shoot in the shortest config. I could use some help with the verbiage, to make easier to understand..

update: quick fix some typos

SemiAutoSam

01-16-2008, 08:31 AM

I have owned this Rifle for 25-30 years and its always had this muzzle device on it The FFL that sold the rifle when it was new and FN just called it a flash hider IIRC.

I was aware of the PC in fact I have quoted it in the past on several occasions but I still (even while knowing the PC as it does not state how this device is a "grenade launcher") don't know how this device can be called a "grenade launcher" when possession of the grenade itself (a Destructive Device) would be a felony be it not registered and tax paid via the NFA. Its not like you can purchase a grenade down at the local BIG 5.

And in the past having a Machine gun but no magazine that would fit it and or being the ammo was so obsolete was a viable defence although probably not with today's version of the BATF&E.

SO Correct me if you feel I'm wrong but given the OAL part (California isn't satisfied with using the 26 inch OAL like the federal law uses and need to make up another thing with calling this muzzle device a "grenade launcher")

So with changing out the Muzzle device to a longer one that made the folded / collapsed length 30 inches would take care of the legal aspects of the OAL and removes the "grenade launcher" feature.

I guess what I was seeking to find was not just the PC on this issue but how the "State Of California" determines that this muzzle device is a "grenade launcher" in its ultimate wisdom when the rest of the country knows that its just a flash hider.

Thanks for the reply in any case.

I dunno, is it a grenade launcher?

The attachment on some STG-58 FALs have flash hiders which are also grenade launchers. The Yugo M59/66 muzzle attachment was originally a grenade launcher (hence why CA needs a specialize brake to be mated on the muzzle, to disable/replace the GL). The M203 is specifically a grenade launcher. They come in different varieties.

The PC is in the flowchart, did you fail to see it?

Ironchef

01-16-2008, 10:07 AM

Ok, I hate to say this, but is there a chance to put a Harrott reference in there? Because in the end, that's the ONE thing that's missing from LE education and it's the one thing that will make this chart moot if we supply our local PD with a copy of the chart or whatever.

I'm thinking that because most LE will just assume the series weapon ban is still in effect, this pretty chart will mean nothing to them...the green balloons will be moot, the multiple references to listed items will be moot, etc...all without harrott.

I think the chart is already full of data and beautifully done, so perhaps if there's no room for the harrott reference in there, it should at least be printed separately and made to accompany the chart?

REDHORSE

01-16-2008, 03:35 PM

Ver 0.3 (check later pages for the most current version!)

• Added some CCR in more places.
• Increase Font size/ bold to make it easier to read.
• Added Active Duty Military Assault Weapon Permit.
• Change verbiage for a few boxes.
• Fixed some spelling...

MudCamper

01-16-2008, 03:54 PM

Wow. This is really looking good. I'm definately adding it to my rifle case. Thanks to all those who help develop it!

Prowler

01-16-2008, 04:19 PM

It may be more helpful to have the yellow rectangular boxes with the PC info linked to the YES or NO black arrows. This may sound simple, however you want it to be a "no brainer" for all observers. Awesome job so far...it's amazing how quickly an idea can develope with into something good!

REDHORSE

01-16-2008, 05:42 PM

Prowler

01-16-2008, 06:04 PM

Like this? I had to move them around to make them fit.
Version 0.4
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4023/centerfireidv04wo9.th.png (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centerfireidv04wo9.png)

Direct Link:
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4023/centerfireidv04wo9.png

If you rotate the image 90 degrees counter-clockwise and reduce the overall image, making sure it is legible, you may be able to place it on an 8.5 x 11 sheet. Cite the summary of the PC on the back, including web links to the appropriate governmental agencies...if you feel it would be helpful. Once everyone on CG thinks it's complete, print it out in color and laminate at KINKOS and sell them! Bounce the idea for a little while longer on the thread for any other upgrade ideas from Calgunners...

aileron

01-16-2008, 06:15 PM

What about the difference between Flash Hiders and Compensator's? Shouldnt their be a note that says compensator's are not flash hiders?

This thing is awesome btw.

easy

01-16-2008, 11:57 PM

Copied it all! Now to print and mail....

DrjonesUSA

01-17-2008, 12:12 AM

I just want to post to tell you guys how amazed I am.

thisismyboomstick: what an excellent idea you had!

Your initial draft was impressive, but then to see what Red Horse turned it into.......WOW!

You guys are a damned creative bunch!!!

Great job and keep up the great work!!!

DrjonesUSA

01-17-2008, 12:13 AM

leelaw

01-17-2008, 12:29 AM

Version 0.02

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7717/centerfireidv02qj5.th.png (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centerfireidv02qj5.png)
Direct link:
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7717/centerfireidv02qj5.png

It probably needs some help with the OAL (30") and being able to shoot in the shortest config. I could use some help with the verbiage, to make easier to understand..

update: quick fix some typos
I see what you did there [PC] :D

Looks good.

Just a thought, if this is a copy you intend to be distributed to LEOs eventually, you might want to add 16" BBL, and the DD grenade launcher (in addition to being an AW).

hoffmang

01-17-2008, 12:46 AM

Librarian

01-17-2008, 11:48 AM

One more item that you probably should add.

Above the "Is the rifle listed in Appendix B" box you should probably place a beige box that says "Harrot v. County of Kings requires Series Rifles to be listed by make and model"

Also, how about "Is the rifle's overall length while fireable less than 30"?"

-Gene

-GeneI think that Harrot goes on the 'Appendix B' page, with the full cite (one link is here (http://www.rkba.org/judicial/harrott-kings-county-casupct.pdf)) - really isn't needed on the chart, and space is tight.

REDHORSE

01-17-2008, 12:30 PM

Ver 0.5 (check later pages for the most current version!)

Updates:
• Changed the wording on a few things.
• Added 16" barrel check box
• Moved boxes/ lines around to make room

I haven't decided yet if Destructive Device PC §12301(a)(4), is really necessary for the chart yet. How often is someone really going to run into a DD situation?

I started on the back page of the chart already. I have covered, thus far:
• The three categories of an AW in California
• Penal Code section 12276.1 (a) (1-3)
• Generic gun safety rules
• Definition of a Detachable Magazine CCR 11 § 5469
• Definition of a Pistol Grip CCR 11 § 5469 (d)
• How to obtain an Assault Weapons Permit for Active Duty Military Personnel.

What I need, from yall:
• cliff notes version of Harrot
• Phone numbers to 'The Right People', if someone needed 2A legal representation (Lawyer, NRA, bwiese home/cell/work/pager ;), etc..)
• ANYTHING ELSE IMPORTANT, that should be on the back side of the chart??? The back side is more than ½ full.

Ironchef

01-17-2008, 12:36 PM

Red,

You should charge for such a well orchestrated, beautifully rendered chart..which can save someone considerable grief and money.

..but of course, Calgunners should have free access to it! :P

Diablo

01-17-2008, 12:38 PM

Is this the final now?

trashman

01-17-2008, 12:40 PM

Nicely done! There's a real black art to putting together a readable functional flow block diagram like this.

cheers,
Neill

REDHORSE

01-17-2008, 12:42 PM

Is this the final now?

If you guys don't find anything wrong with it, or if there isn't something very important that should be added (that would fit). Then we can call it Ver 1.0 ;)

tmuller

01-17-2008, 12:49 PM

great idea...I'll use it

Diablo

01-17-2008, 12:58 PM

Thank you. This is great!!

MudCamper

01-17-2008, 01:18 PM

The document references Appendixes A, B, and C, which are not included. They are in boomstick's original document, and are the Roberti-Roos list and series lists. (FYI, Appendix is mispelled in the A,B reference on the flowchart.)

Perhaps it would be better not to even refer to them as Appendixes? Maybe just "Is the Rifle listed on the Roberti-Roos List?" and "Is the rifle listed in the Series List?" or even better, "Is the rifle listed in 12276(a)?" and "Is the rifle listed in CCR 11 § 5499?" and either way, everyone should include these lists on the back of this flowchart...

Librarian

01-17-2008, 02:02 PM

2 "p"s in "equipped" in the folding-stock block.

And down to trivial spelling fixes? Wow - nice job.

Someone posted a comparison photograph for flash hider/suppressor vs muzzle brake; that looks useful. I think pictures of magazine locking devices, in a "what's this thing?" kind of way might also help.

I agree DD is sort of out of the scope of this effort.

I think the key graph in Harrot is ...a trial court may not find a semiautomatic firearm a series assault weapon under
section 12276, subdivision (e), unless the firearm has first been included in the list of series assault weapons promulgated by the Attorney General pursuant to section 12276.5, subdivision (h) which list is in 11 CCR § 5499 and, I believe, permanently fixed (AB2728 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/05-06/bill/asm/ab_2701-2750/ab_2728_bill_20060929_chaptered.html)). (and that list seems to intermix AK and AR) 11 CA ADC § 5499

11 CCR § 5499

Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, § 5499

BARCLAYS OFFICIAL CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 40. ASSAULT WEAPONS IDENTIFICATION
This database is current through 1/4/08, Register 2008, No. 1
§ 5499. California Penal Code Section 12276(e) Assault Weapons List.

(a) Rifles

American Arms AK-C 47
American Arms AK-F 39
American Arms AK-F 47
American Arms AK-Y 39
American Spirit USA Model
Armalite AR 10 (all)
Armalite Golden Eagle
Armalite M15 (all)
Arsenal SLG (all)
Arsenal SLR (all)
B-West AK-47 (all)
Bushmaster XM15 (all)
Colt Law Enforcement (6920)
Colt Match Target (all)
Colt Sporter (all)
Dalphon B.F.D.
DPMS Panther (all)
Eagle Arms EA-15 A2 H-BAR
Eagle Arms EA-15 E1
Eagle Arms M15 (all)
Frankford Arsenal AR-15 (all)
Hesse Arms HAR 15A2 (all)
Hesse Arms Model 47 (all)
Hesse Arms Wieger STG 940 Rifle
Inter Ordnance - Monroe, NC AK-47 (all)
Inter Ordnance - Monroe, NC M-97
Inter Ordnance - Monroe, NC RPK
Kalashnikov USA Hunter Rifle/Saiga
Knights RAS (all)
Knights SR-15 (all)
Knights SR-25 (all)
Les Baer Ultimate AR (all)
MAADI CO MISR (all)
MAADI CO MISTR (all)
Mitchell Arms, Inc. AK-47 (all)
Mitchell Arms, Inc. AK-47 Cal .308 (all)
Mitchell Arms, Inc. M-76
Mitchell Arms, Inc. M-90
Mitchell Arms, Inc. RPK
Norinco 81 S (all)
Norinco 86 (all)
Norinco AK-47 (all)
Norinco Hunter Rifle
Norinco MAK 90
Norinco NHM 90, 90-2, 91 Sport
Norinco RPK Rifle
Ohio Ordnance Works (o.o.w.) AK-74
Ohio Ordnance Works (o.o.w.) ROMAK 991
Olympic Arms AR-15
Olympic Arms Car-97
Olympic Arms PCR (all)
Ordnance, Inc. AR-15
Palmetto SGA (all)
Professional Ordnance, Inc. Carbon 15 Rifle
PWA All Models
Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A2
Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A4 Flattop
Rock River Arms, Inc. LE Tactical Carbine
Rock River Arms, Inc. NM A2 - DCM Legal
Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-2
Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-4 Flattop
Valmet 76 S
Valmet Hunter Rifle
Wilson Combat AR-15
WUM WUM (all)

(b) Pistols

MARS Pistol
Professional Ordnance, Inc. Carbon 15 Pistol

Note: Authority cited: Section 12276.5(h), Penal Code. Reference: Section 12276(e), Penal Code.

... so maybe only one 'series' list reference, following Mudcamper's suggestion?

ohsmily

01-17-2008, 02:11 PM

The chart looks great, but my SU16CA comes out as an illegal assault weapon since with the stock folded it is less than 30".

Actually, the ACTION folds. There is an SU-16C model where only the stock folds and the rifle can still be operated. In all the other SU-16 models, the entire ACTION folds and it is no longer operable, you have essentially disassembled the rifle.

xrMike

01-17-2008, 02:27 PM

Prowler

01-17-2008, 02:32 PM

Great job!

I tried to print it out though, in Landscape mode, and it's too big to fit on a single 8.5 x 11 page, even when I selected "scale to fit" in Print Properties... The content goes right off the page on the right side, and at the bottom.

Am I doing something wrong?

I'll email you a copy that has been re-sized once everyone signs off on it...I've been playing with the file to see how much we can get on a sheet of paper without getting to busy and illegible...

REDHORSE

01-17-2008, 02:53 PM

I fixed the spelling mistakes, thanks.

When I was working with the back side of the chart. I didn't realized I was working on a bigger work sheet (1 page wide, 2 pages tall). So, I have a lot less room than I thought. I had to remove some of what I had, trim some stuff down, and reduce the font size a bit to make what I have fit.

Good news is that Appendix A,B,C fit. Going to see what else I can fit in the remaining space.

REDHORSE

01-17-2008, 06:05 PM

Ver 0.6 (check later pages for the most current version!)

Updates:
• fixed spelling mistakes
• added some shadowing to some of the boxes that were missing them.
• added "(a)" to detachable mag CCR
• removed Kasler reference in the upper box.

Chart Backside Version 0.1 (check later pages for the most current version!)

I've got a small spot left. I tried thinking about flash suppressors vs muzzle brakes. But, haven't come up with anything definitive.

Need yall to go over the backside page, to make sure all is right. I verified the Appendixes. But, check them anyways.

FYI: I noticed that Springfield Armory BM59 & SAR-48 from (Roberti Roos lists) was missing from the Word & PDF document posted earlier in this thread. The authors of those documents, may want to update their files.

If you guys have anything to add or suggest, feel free to post...

thisismyboomstick

01-17-2008, 06:24 PM

Wow, that is pretty darn good.

To be honest I really don't see the point in addressing .50 BMG's and SBR's though. Those issues really aren't all that complex and don't really need the assistance of a flow chart to guide somebody through them. I think it would be better if it addresses only the Assault Weapons status of centerfire rifles in sub-.50BMG calibers.

For .50 BMG either it can chamber the cartridge or it can't. It's registered or it's not.

A barrel is either over 16" or its not.

The whole point of the flow chart was to try to simplify something that is complex not simplify something that is simple.

Just my .02

MT1

01-17-2008, 06:43 PM

Wow - looks great.

Awesome addition to my OLL paperwork. :gunsmilie:

fairfaxjim

01-17-2008, 07:12 PM

Very nice! Too bad that the "experts" whose "mission statement" would seem to indicate that work like this would be their daily provence have been bogged down in a campaign of FUD!

REDHORSE

01-17-2008, 07:12 PM

For those trying to print it. Save both pictures onto your HD. Right click on the picture file (in Explorer) and click print.

The Print Wizard for Windows XP SP2, oriented and automatically sized it to fit onto a single page on my home network. Set the print quality to High, so that the text will be easier to read.

Reload the printed page back onto your printer (orient it correctly into your paper feed tray), so that you can print the back side. Use the steps above to print the 2nd page onto the backside of the chart. Again, set the print quality to High, so that the text will be easier to read.

MudCamper

01-17-2008, 10:24 PM

I gotta say, this is really professional looking. Once you have this finalized, IMO it should be put on the CalGuns main page, and then a link to it emailed to every LE agency in the state.

Librarian

01-17-2008, 10:41 PM

I just asked my wife if she could think of any other hobby that required this much detail to figure out what you could own.

Maybe falconry?

Great work, Redhorse. :hurray: :gunsmilie:

REDHORSE

01-17-2008, 11:17 PM

FYI- There aren't final yet. I fixed a few things on both pages already.

gcrtkd

01-18-2008, 12:43 AM

RH- the flowchart looks excellent. A true grassroots, community effort.

A couple of tiny (nit-picky) fixes... hey, if it's going to be the "official word on civilian-legal rifles, brought to the DoJ BoF by CalGuns," rather than the other way around, then it might as well be perfect...

1) In the "FYI" box on the BB, Mag-Lock, Prince50, etc., it says, "... CCR 11 S 5469 (a). As these magazine locks, require a "TOOL" to remove the magazine from the firearm." It should say, "... CCR 11 S 5469 (a), as these magazine locks require a "TOOL" to remove the magazine from the firearm." (I fixed a couple of commas for grammar.) AND, "Therefore they are considered "fixed magazine" configurations." Also, do you want to somehow reference DoJ BoF's letter/statement about a bullet tip or cartridge case being considered a tool?

2) In the bottom "FYI" box, it should be, "Neither MM Grips nor U15 stocks meet the criteria of PGs, as they do not..."

3) I don't know if this is 100% true or not, but in the box in the upper RHC, I think that when you say, "The registration deadline for XYZ was by XX/YY/ZZ", it should actually be "The registration deadline for XYZ was XX/YY/ZZ." (Just drop the "by", methinks.)

The way to go about getting this distributed to CA LEOs is to get it to CA POST. Can you get any $$ through copyright if it gets distributed to law enforcement agencies via POST? Otherwise, perhaps The Right People could give this thing the final approval and send it via certified/registered(?) mail to the various chiefs & sheriffs. Shouldn't that help to prevent cases like BWO's?

-spanks!

leelaw

01-18-2008, 12:46 AM

Also, do you want to somehow reference DoJ BoF's letter/statement about a bullet tip or cartridge case being considered a tool?

The CCR referenced contains the DOJ's determination that the required use of a tool, of which a bullet tip or cartridge is spefically defined as, to remove a magazine is a "fixed magazine"

gcrtkd

01-18-2008, 12:47 AM

The CCR referenced contains the DOJ's determination that the required use of a tool, of which a bullet tip or cartridge is spefically defined as, to remove a magazine is a "fixed magazine"

Ah, well, there you go... getting late... brain shutting down...

REDHORSE

01-18-2008, 01:00 AM

Cool thanks. I was waiting for the 'Grammar Nazis' to help proof read the pages.

I will make the corrections, thanks!

jjperl

01-18-2008, 01:37 AM

Very professional and thanks for all the hard work and time you have put into it so far. :patriot:

The identification of flash suppressors v. muzzle breaks is probably gonna be the hardest part, but very necessary for your peace of art to be 100% legit.

adamsreeftank

01-18-2008, 02:00 AM

This is looking great. Maybe we could pool some money and print a bunch in color double sided and send them to local PDs, DA, gun shops, etc.

REDHORSE

01-18-2008, 02:36 AM

The identification of flash suppressors v. muzzle breaks is probably gonna be the hardest part, but very necessary for your peace of art to be 100% legit.

Someone come up with the info to add regarding muzzle devices and I'll add it. I'm at a loss as to what to say about the subject.

I can pull the 2A lawyer stuff out if the space is needed. If this chart is intended for LEOs... then they could probably care less.

It was for CGN forum members, should they need legal representation. It would be easy to find on the back side.

Phantom_Piney

01-18-2008, 02:47 AM

This is looking great. Maybe we could pool some money and print a bunch in color double sided and send them to local PDs, DA, gun shops, etc.

+1000 Great idea...:) I be willing to contribute some funds to educate the masses about OLL and have that flow chart sent all across California. Just let me know where to send the funds too.

Great job guys...

xrMike

01-18-2008, 11:35 AM

Red Horse,

Does the .6 version shown previously in this thread include ALL of the latest changes?

-- If NO, can I please see the latest version (you can send to: xrMike@gmail.com)

-- If YES, I would like to PM or email you a number of small corrections that would be silly to include here. You can take them or leave them.

Most of my input has to do with nit-picky stuff that most people wouldn't even notice, but nevertheless, will improve the end product -- standardized capitalization, subject/verb agreement, awkward phrasing, use of commas, etc.

I was an English major and have been writing/editing for a living for 15+ years. My comments would be similar to previous poster "gcrtkd" (whose suggestions were all good too ;)).

Edited to add: Awesome flow-chart, btw. It's a valuable tool, for both shooters and LEOs.

REDHORSE

01-18-2008, 11:50 AM

No, they aren't final yet. Still a work in progress. PM the corrections/ suggestions and I'll update the pages right away.

SunriseF150

01-18-2008, 01:39 PM

I love this idea and all the work/ideas/changes everyone has put into this. Definately something i'm going to keep with me & my guns. Even give one to the local FFL as she was confused about the Flash hider issue on a fixed mag build i'm selling.

gcrtkd

01-18-2008, 03:54 PM

[QUOTE=REDHORSE;945015I can pull the 2A lawyer stuff out if the space is needed. If this chart is intended for LEOs... then they could probably care less.

It was for CGN forum members, should they need legal representation. It would be easy to find on the back side.[/QUOTE]

What'cha need is a little "Brought to you by calguns.net 2nd Amend. Forum" and a web link to the archival version so anyone, anywhere can go get it on their own when they see some guy with one at the range or the last one behind the counter at ye olde gunne shoppe. You might also want to put a legal disclaimer of some sort on there.

-ole!

Rascal

01-18-2008, 04:34 PM

Well all I got to say is this is fabulous. Thank you all for the effort put into this.
And don't forget the legal disclaimer. :hurray:

REDHORSE

01-18-2008, 05:12 PM

I went back and redid all the previous pictures with a "© www.calguns.net 2nd Amend. Forums" . They were slapped on the pictures in MS Paint.

So, all the previous old links are dead (deleted old pics) and I've updated my old posts, so you could still see the progression that has been made with the chart.

I've updated/ made some minor changes to the chart for Ver 0.7, just waiting for xrMike (English major) to PM me his corrections. So, that I can post Ver 0.7

ldivinag

01-18-2008, 05:56 PM

anyone still want a webpage WIZARD like thing for this?

MonsterMan

01-18-2008, 06:47 PM

This is awesome. Do you mind if I put a copy of it on the MonsterMan Grip website?

:)

REDHORSE

01-19-2008, 03:26 PM

Version 0.7 (check later pages for the most current version!)

Updated:
• added ©
• edited some grammar, punctuations, capitalizations
• edited the chart in a paint program to fix some cosmetic issues and to move things around, do to the limitations of the chart program (trial version).

Getting close to final version. I just need the Grammar Nazis and Legal Beagles to proof read the chart.

Back page still about the same. Just waiting for someone to come up with something regarding flash suppressors and muzzle brakes that I could use for the back page.

MMG, sure post the chart on your website. You may want to wait until we finalized the chart and back page. We will have a PDF version of it when it's done.

I only have 3 days left on the trial version of this software, before it expires. I can always install the trial software onto another home PC or clean out this PC's registry and reinstall the program. But, we're so close to finalizing it.

So, feedback is appreciated.

Prowler

01-19-2008, 04:02 PM

Version 0.7
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8311/centerfireidv07ae2.th.png (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centerfireidv07ae2.png)

Direct link:
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8311/centerfireidv07ae2.png

Updated:
• added ©
• edited some grammar, punctuations, capitalizations
• edited the chart in a paint program to fix some cosmetic issues and to move things around, do to the limitations of the chart program (trial version).

Getting close to final version. I just need the Grammar Nazis and Legal Beagles to proof read the chart.

Back page still about the same. Just waiting for someone to come up with something regarding flash suppressors and muzzle brakes that I could use for the back page.

MMG, sure post the chart on your website. You may want to wait until we finalized the chart and back page. We will have a PDF version of it when it's done.

I only have 3 days left on the trial version of this software, before it expires. I can always install the trial software onto another home PC or clean out this PC's registry and reinstall the program. But, we're so close to finalizing it.

So, feedback is appreciated.

There are a few more spelling errors, possibly bold-type any trademark names, such as MMG, U-15, etc. and use copyright, trademark logos, etc. where appropriate. Possibly add a small U-15 and MMG image near the description for the pistol grip reference. This would be for the LEO that can't determine what they actually are. Let the form display it instead of leaving it up to each LEO's discretion. It woutd answer one's question about what they are and what they look like...just trying to make it a "no brainer" for interpretation be LE.

Librarian

01-19-2008, 04:14 PM

jjperl

01-19-2008, 04:41 PM

Just waiting for someone to come up with something regarding flash suppressors and muzzle brakes that I could use for the back page.

I guess I'll give it a shot. I know there may be some stuff missing but here it goes.

Flash suppressors generally have a wide tapered muzzle opening, and may or may not have slits that extend all the way to the end of the muzzle device. Some flash suppressors have a narrow strait muzzle opening (slightly larger than the diameter of the bullet being fired) with "prongs" that run the length of the muzzle device.

Muzzle breaks generally have a narrow strait muzzle opening (slightly larger than the diameter of the bullet being fired), and have holes, slits or slots cut into it that allow gas to escape in a particular direction to reduce recoil and/or muzzle rise.

Anyone else have any suggestions?

sandsnow

01-19-2008, 06:17 PM

How about web address where you can view Appendiices A, B, and C?

Nice Work!!

REDHORSE

01-19-2008, 07:26 PM

little twitches:

"Active Duty Military personnel, stationed in California. May apply"
might be better as
"Active Duty Military personnel, stationed in California, may apply"

I changed it back to the way it was.

Similarly,
"As these magazine locks require a tool to remove the magazine from the firearm. Therefore, these rifles are considered"
might be better as
"As these magazine locks require a tool to remove the magazine from the firearm, these rifles are considered"

I went with this.

OR

"... defined in CCR 11 5469(a). As these magazine locks "
might be
"... defined in CCR 11 5469(a), as these magazine locks "

Probably the second; that matches the construction in the Monsterman Grip block.

Either way, the clause that begins with "As these" seems to be a subordinate clause that should be connected to either the main clause/sentence preceding or following.

I currently have the text blocks looking like this, for the next version. Everyone please proof read them, and let me know how they look.
* Active Duty Military personnel stationed in California, may apply for an Assault Weapon Permit for personally owned AW(s) after the deadlines.

FYI: Bullet Button, MAG-LOCK, Prince50, Raddlock, Range-Maglok, and similar devices (magazine locks) do not meet the criteria of a detachable magazine as defined in CCR 11 § 5469 (a). As these magazine locks require a tool to remove the magazine from the firearm, these rifles are considered "fixed magazine" configurations.

FYI: Neither MonsterMan Grips nor the California Rifles U15 stock meet the criteria of a pistol grip, as they do not allow the shooter to grip the rifle in a pistol style grasp CCR 11 § 5469 (d), nor do they protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.

There are a few more spelling errors, possibly bold-type any trademark names, such as MMG, U-15, etc. and use copyright, trademark logos, etc. where appropriate. Possibly add a small U-15 and MMG image near the description for the pistol grip reference. This would be for the LEO that can't determine what they actually are. Let the form display it instead of leaving it up to each LEO's discretion. It woutd answer one's question about what they are and what they look like...just trying to make it a "no brainer" for interpretation be LE.

When I first started the chart, I originally had the trademark symbol for a few of the magazine locks. But, it looked funny with it only on a few and it took too much space in the text box. Plus, I hard time verifying which ones were trademarked or not. So, I just left the symbol off, to save space.

I agree with you on the MMG & U15. So, I added a picture of each on the backside. I agree that most LEOs are probably not familiar with these products, and having pictures of them will help.

How about web address where you can view Appendiices A, B, and C?

Nice Work!!

Should be on the backside of the chart. So, all they have to do is flip the card.

Backside Ver 0.3:(check later pages for the most current version!)

Doesn't look like I have any room for flash suppressors vs muzzle brakes, unless I make or remove one of the other text boxes. I can probably change the design to eliminate the colored boxes to go with something simpler, to free up space.

Let me know. Feedback appreciated!

jjperl

01-19-2008, 08:13 PM

IMO having a box explaining the difference between flash suppressors and muzzle breaks is crucial. I doubt most LE can tell the difference between the two. If they can't differentiate between them, they might confiscate the rifle for further investigation even though everything else checks out. Please make room.

AS45-70

01-19-2008, 08:17 PM

i feel like a tard, am i following this correctly ?

"Is the rifles barrel 16 inches or less in length ? Y or N

shouldn't this read "is the rifle barrel under 16 inches in length"

REDHORSE

01-19-2008, 08:30 PM

i feel like a tard, am i following this correctly ?

"Is the rifles barrel 16 inches or less in length ? Y or N

shouldn't this read "is the rifle barrel under 16 inches in length"

Your right. It's so easy to miss the obvious. lol

It now reads:

Is the rifle's barrel less than 16 inches in length?

aileron

01-19-2008, 10:37 PM

Doesn't look like I have any room for flash suppressors vs muzzle brakes, unless I make or remove one of the other text boxes. I can probably change the design to eliminate the colored boxes to go with something simpler, to free up space.

Let me know. Feedback appreciated!

Replace firearm safety with muzzle break info, because they are trying to ID whether its legal or not.

AS45-70

01-19-2008, 10:59 PM

Replace firearm safety with muzzle break info, because they are trying to ID whether its legal or not.

+1 ten char mumbojumbo

REDHORSE

01-19-2008, 11:19 PM

I redid the back page, without the color tabs. So, I have plenty of space now for the muzzle brake info, when we come up with something.

jjperl

01-19-2008, 11:44 PM

In case you missed it, this is what I came up with for flash suppressors and muzzle breaks.

Flash suppressors generally have a wide tapered muzzle opening, and may or may not have slits that extend all the way to the end of the muzzle device. Some flash suppressors have a narrow strait muzzle opening (slightly larger than the diameter of the bullet being fired) with "prongs" that run the length of the muzzle device.

Muzzle breaks generally have a narrow strait muzzle opening (slightly larger than the diameter of the bullet being fired), and have holes, slits or slots cut into it that allow gas to escape in a particular direction to reduce recoil and/or muzzle rise.

Anyone else have any suggestions?

Librarian

01-20-2008, 12:23 AM

One relatively critical item: it's a muzzle BRAKE.

brake link (http://www.rifle-accuracy-reports.com/MuzzleBrakes.html)
brake link (http://www.smithenterprise.com/products07.html)
brake link (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/catsearch.aspx?c=4452&p=4816)

flash link (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/catsearch.aspx?k=flash%20suppressor&ps=10&si=True)

The issue has to be 'NOT a flash suppressor', so distinguishing one from the other, as jjperl's text does, is the goal.

I'm not technical enough to argue definitions here, and I can't find a legal usage that is solid. It's another one of those 'I think I know one when I see it' kinds of things. The Army has an online glossary (http://www.army-technology.com/search.do?q=muzzle+brake&baseId=1&search.x=0&search.y=0) that says helpful things like The chromium-plated barrel is 8m long and is fitted with a slotted muzzle brake which gives increased muzzle velocity and reduces the level of muzzle flash.

hoffmang

01-20-2008, 12:51 AM

There is one major negative to getting into flash hiders. The definition is:

"flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision.

Not even the DOJ can explain how a brake that also redirects flash is not a flash suppressor but is only a brake - which is what they contend...

-Gene

lawnrevenge

01-20-2008, 08:51 AM

Not to get too side tracked, but why are flash suppressors not allowed? Is it just because they have a scary name (like every thing else)?

aileron

01-20-2008, 10:00 AM

Not to get too side tracked, but why are flash suppressors not allowed? Is it just because they have a scary name (like every thing else)?

My contention is that if it looks cool, they want to ban it.

Trying to place logic behind why a pistol grip, flash suppressor, bayonet lug, folding stock, or detachable magazine is bad, is like asking a 2 year old whats the meaning of life. Though you probably would get a better answer from a 2 year old about the latter than you would get from the Anti's about the former.

So it really is that it looks scary (actually cool), and thats how they could attack us and get away with it. I think their comments were "to get people in America use to bans, by going after the machine gun looking firearms first" because most Americans are naive about what is and isn't a machine gun. Thats paraphrased of course and not a direct quote, but you get the idea.

vikingshelmut

01-20-2008, 11:38 AM

Redhorse,

Wow, very nice. Sometimes people need this type of visual logical workflow as opposed to figuring it out in their heads. I think this is a great idea.

A quick minor thought and others may comment:
If the point of this document is to emphasize to LEO's and others that a person who has a properly configured rifle is not in violation, it would be nice if you could somehow make the green "legal" bubble larger than the red "illegal" bubble. One's eye tends to stray to the largest, most emphasized object on the page, and that in it's current form is the "illegal" bubble. If the "legal" bubble is made more prominent than the "illegal" bubble, the point of the flowchart becomes more about recognizing legally configured rifles over identifying illegally configured rifles.

It's a minor thing, but visual emphasis can have a dramatic effect on a persons perception.

Also, I realize that space is an issue so you might not be able to change these items anyway.

USN CHIEF

01-20-2008, 02:07 PM

Redhorse,

It's a minor thing, but visual emphasis can have a dramatic effect on a persons perception.

Also, I realize that space is an issue so you might not be able to change these items anyway.

+10000, everytime I look at it, It seems lime I am spending more time on the red than on the other colors. Either way, this is a freaking genious work of art:)

Librarian

01-20-2008, 06:46 PM

My contention is that if it looks cool, they want to ban it.
Or if it looks scary, to someone.

Consider this image: http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/jcmuzzle.JPG

Note the 'standard' appearance on this SMLE. No 'stuff' on the end. That's the way Granpa's Huntin' Rifle (tm) looked, and that ought to be good enough for all of you, consarn ya!

And who needs one of those hi-falutin' electric auto-mo-beel starters? A crank was good enough for Daddy...

Trying to figure out why one cosmetic thing is banned while another is not is an exercise in frustration, but getting it sorted out is what will ultimately keep someone in, or out of, jail.

I think the reality will be built up in courts - Brand X Model 3 is 'ok' but Model 4 is 'bad' (if this kind of thing is ever adjudicated). So maybe we proactively use jjperl's language, find one or two picture examples of each within one manufacturer or retailer's line, and call it good.

Good faith, until some decision sticks, is about the best we can do.

AaronHorrocks

01-20-2008, 10:04 PM

Can someone explain to me which law says I can't have fixed 30 round mag?

Librarian

01-20-2008, 10:07 PM

Can someone explain to me which law says I can't have fixed 30 round mag?
Already posted, but here it is again:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

REDHORSE

01-20-2008, 10:29 PM

A quick minor thought and others may comment:
If the point of this document is to emphasize to LEO's and others that a person who has a properly configured rifle is not in violation, it would be nice if you could somehow make the green "legal" bubble larger than the red "illegal" bubble. One's eye tends to stray to the largest, most emphasized object on the page, and that in it's current form is the "illegal" bubble. If the "legal" bubble is made more prominent than the "illegal" bubble, the point of the flowchart becomes more about recognizing legally configured rifles over identifying illegally configured rifles.

It's a minor thing, but visual emphasis can have a dramatic effect on a persons perception.

Also, I realize that space is an issue so you might not be able to change these items anyway.

It's do to the limitations of the SmartDraw software that I'm using. With the number of arrows going to the RED box, it had to be large to accommodate all the arrows and their routing. All the arrows are anchored to the corresponding box points. So, when I moved or resized the text boxes, the arrow would auto align/route themselves. Making it easier to edit.

I could do it freehand in a paint program. I could then do it how i really wanted. but, it would have taken much longer to do and the edits would take longer. The SmartDraw program does make it look prettier than I could in a paint program (it has a lot of neat features and special effects), as I really don't know how to use PhotoShop all that well.

I'm going to try and work on the the flash suppressor/ muzzle brake over the next day.

RAD-CDPII

01-20-2008, 10:51 PM

Thanks for the info, even though it do not have an AR or AK, just a Mini14. I have saved it to my computer and will pass it on to those that I know have those type of weapons and do not check out this forum.

ghostwong

01-20-2008, 11:12 PM

This is GREAT!!! Keep up the good work. I'm going to get them into the law enforcement chain, so they can look see and understand!

ke6guj

01-20-2008, 11:24 PM

One relatively critical item: it's a muzzle BRAKE.

+1 on BRAKE. You want the muzzle brake to brake (stop) recoil, not break (fall off).

Although the one time I did have my 50's muzzle brake break was fun:eek: After we realized it wouldn't break our shoulder, we had to try it again. Can you say RECOIL:D

REDHORSE

01-20-2008, 11:48 PM

Alright, here is my attempt at the flash suppressor definition.

I took some of the info from here and other links on the net and massaged it to fit in the space I had left.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7599/flashsuppressordt7.th.png (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flashsuppressordt7.png)

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7599/flashsuppressordt7.png FYI, I corrected the firearm mis-spelling already.

Definition of a "Flash Suppressor" CCR 11 § 5469 (b) "flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision. CCR 11 § 5469 (b)

Flash Suppressor & Flash Hider is a device attached to or integral with the muzzle of a firearm, it is designed to eliminate or reduce the incandescent flash of the firearm's discharge. Although they can reduce the visibility of the firearm's location when fired, they are primarily designed to prevent the shooter's vision from being blinded by the flash at night. Many flash hiders also act as a muzzle brake.

Characteristics of a flash suppressor: The majority of these devices come in two styles. The multi prong and the birdcage flash suppressor. The inner cavity of the muzzle device is usually several times the diameter of the bore. The muzzle device usually has long slots to allow the expanding gasses to blow through these slots: reducing, eliminating, redirecting the muzzle flash from the shooters field of vision.

Muzzle brake & muzzle compensator is a devices attached to or integral with the muzzle of a firearm, it is designed to redirect the propelling gasses to counter the firearms: recoil, muzzle rise.

Characteristics of muzzle brake: The major difference between a flash suppressor and a muzzle brake is the size of the inner cavity. The inner cavity of a muzzle brake is usually just slightly larger than the diameter of the bore. This better traps the expanding gasses behind the bullet. This forces more of the gasses to escape through small ports, slots in the muzzle device. These slots & ports are usually machined/ drilled in strategic locations or angled to divert the gasses to reduce the firearms: recoil, muzzle rise.

Feedback is appreciated.

I'll post the updated chart and full back page, after I get some feedback.

MudCamper

01-21-2008, 09:49 AM

OK. First, I liked the back page better with the color section titles. IMO it's way more effective. Without them it's way too busy and peoples eyes will just gloss over.

Second, IMO the muzzle break issue is not that important, and beyond the scope of this document. Further, nobody can or will aggree on what a break is vs. a flash suppressor. To every rule there is an exception. This makes it a waste of space and only an opinion - opinion on a document that otherwise would have been 100% fact.

Third, if you must put the break/suppressor stuff on there, take off the "firearms safety" stuff to make the room, not the color titles.

Edit to add: While I'm on the topic, why even have pics of the MMG and U15? Or better, only have pics of them, without the rifles, and use half as much realestate. Then put the little pic of a "typical" flash suppressor and "typical" muzzle break, but don't write a novel about them. Write nothing.

ivorykid

01-21-2008, 10:49 AM

...I liked the back page better with the color section titles. IMO it's way more effective. Without them it's way too busy and peoples eyes will just gloss over...
I agree with MudCamper here.

Great work everyone! This is a great idea that ranks right up there with the OLL FAQ. I can't wait the see the final final PDF version.

AggregatVier

01-21-2008, 12:02 PM

Speaking of the psychology of color > GREEN means "let me go" while RED means "arrest me now." Rather than force the officer to that conclusion, let it remain discretionary by making the large oval YELLOW so it's a warning - not an automatic arrest conclusion. :clover:

Librarian

01-21-2008, 01:46 PM

+1 for colored titles on the back

+1 for scrapping the Firearms Safety block - that's always important, but I think is not needed on this piece of paper

I like AggregatVier's color-psychology note; that red center is really eye catching, so toning it down some might set a different expectation.

I might keep the picture of the two muzzle devices and just the two characteristics sentences:Characteristics of muzzle brake: The major difference between a flash suppressor and a muzzle brake is the size of the inner cavity. The inner cavity of a muzzle brake is usually just slightly larger than the diameter of the bore.

[Composite...]
Characteristics of a flash suppressor: The inner cavity of the flash suppressor is usually several times the diameter of the bore. It usually has long slots which redirect the muzzle flash from the shooters field of vision.

REDHORSE

01-21-2008, 03:12 PM

Alright, made some adjustments with all your recommendations. I also deleted all the old chart pictures. Just to make sure no one grabs an old version by mistake. There were obvious errors on the previous versions.

Updates:
• Changed the color and de-emphasize the Illegal bubble.
• I set the products in bold and put the ™® logos
• Changed the wording in a few of the bubbles
• Made some cosmetic changes
• Put little bubbles to check side B for the appendixes

Chart Side A Version 0.8: Check later pages for the most current version

The gun safety bubble was gone a couple versions ago to make room for the flash suppressor bubble. I put the color title bars back, I just made them smaller.

Chart Side B Version 0.6: Check later pages for the most current version

MonsterMan

01-21-2008, 03:21 PM

I love it. Is this the final one?

Librarian

01-21-2008, 03:43 PM

Nice!

Is the NRA gonna gripe about their logo on something they didn't officially produce?

Looks good there, balances the CALGUNS logo.

REDHORSE

01-21-2008, 03:55 PM

I don't know. Should the NRA logo go?

I made the Illegal bubble even smaller now. Re-edit my post, to put up the updated chart.

MudCamper

01-21-2008, 03:58 PM

Although I still think the entire flash suppressor vs. muzzle break section is way too long winded and should be axed, since it's there, I will critique.

"Muzzle break and muzzle compensator is a devices..." should read, "Muzzle break or muzzle compensator is a device" or, "Muzzle break and muzzle compensator are devices..."

Also, "attached to or intregal with the muzzle of a firearm, it is designed..." should read, "attached to or intregal with the muzzle of a firearm. It is designed..."

Also, why use the colons. Why not replace "firearms: recoil, muzzle rise" with "firearm's recoil and muzzle rise"

Has this become a job that you hate yet? :)

AS45-70

01-21-2008, 03:59 PM

If they didnt approve its use i think its gotta go.

btw very nice job, something to be proud of.

MudCamper

01-21-2008, 04:05 PM

Is the NRA gonna gripe about their logo on something they didn't officially produce?

Aren't some CalGunners also local Cal-NRA board members or some such? Let's get them to "sign-off" on it.

thisismyboomstick

01-21-2008, 04:05 PM

I am also of the opinion that something as poorly defined as the muzzle brake vs. flash hider issue is should be omitted.

REDHORSE

01-21-2008, 04:39 PM

I keep editing the pages, and just when I about to post updated links to the pictures. You guys will have some more edits.

I caught some of your suggestions and was about to post the edit the link for the back page. I reworded a few things and posted the updated page above. picture links are updated.

REDHORSE

01-21-2008, 04:57 PM

Alright NRA logo gone from the back page. I also made some more minor edits to the MB section. Links on the previous page has been updated.

The Trial period for the software expires in one more day. So, I'd like to finalize this tomorrow. lol

I set the date of my computer back, and the freaking program caught that. It must check it's home page for a date or something.

I could always install it on another PC in the house.

fun2none

01-21-2008, 05:47 PM

RH -the document is fantastic !!

One small point regarding the section "Definition of 'Pistol Grip'". The proximity of the title and pictures of a U15 and MMG might imply that they are in fact pistol grips.

Why not use the original graphics from the DOJ to illustrate what is and what is not ? I believe those pictures are not copyrighted.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010331221359/http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm

jjperl

01-21-2008, 07:45 PM

hoffmang

01-21-2008, 10:54 PM

We can easily find out if the NRA will approve of its logo. Do we want to?

-Gene

MudCamper

01-21-2008, 11:16 PM

We already have pics of MMG and U15, and pics of what some flash suppressors and some muzzle breaks look like. Add pics of pistol grips? Next we'll see requests for pics of BBs and P50s. Where will it end? IMO none of the pics belong in this document at all. Remove them all. Redhorse, you've done truely great work here, but at some point you have to ignore a committee before it burdens a creation with too much baggage.

Librarian

01-21-2008, 11:21 PM

We can easily find out if the NRA will approve of its logo. Do we want to?

-GeneI don't think so.

I don't mind advertising for them, but I don't think we should wait while such a request wends its way through the various levels of approval.

If they want to support reproduction and distribution with cash, and require their logo as a condition for that, I'd be happy with that deal.

In its current form, it's a Redhorse/Calguns group project. If NRA wants to make an offer, I'd say let Redhorse make the call.

It's been a nice example of a distributed knowledge and editing project. It's about time to take it out of Beta and go with First Customer Ship.

Librarian

01-21-2008, 11:25 PM

... at some point you have to ignore a committee before it burdens a creation with too much baggage.
I'm sure that horse would look good with a 5th leg, and it looks like there's room for a big water-storage place on the back... :D
(Old joke: a camel is a horse designed by committee.)

Addax

01-22-2008, 12:24 AM

BEAUTIFUL WORK GENTLEMEN!

THANK YOU!

smogcity

01-22-2008, 07:05 AM

Great Job!! Can you stickie the final product when the revisions are done?

SemiAutoSam

01-22-2008, 03:28 PM

OK I just used the Assault Weapons I.D. Flowchart for a Noob.

I guess next is the Shotgun and then the Handgun versions ?

Kestryll

01-22-2008, 03:32 PM

This thing rocks, I have a folder set aside for this upon completion for hosting.

Let me know when you've finished the refinements, although I can't think of anything major that has been missed!

Very cool!

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 04:47 PM

DrjonesUSA

01-22-2008, 04:57 PM

I think it's done?! No one has really pointed out any more errors, beside wanting to remove or add stuff to it.

I can make the version 1.0 and call it a release version.

Too bad the trial version puts a watermark when I save it as a PDF/WORD/EXCEL files. As it's much clearer and easier to read.

To get these pictures, I just do a full screen print-screen and I crop it. It's readable/ printable, just not as clear as a straight PDF save within the program.

If you post it here or email the word or excel file to me, I can create a clean .pdf for everyone.

Thanks again for your work here, RedHorse!!!

EDIT: Sorry, just saw you are using different software that won't let you create clean files to begin with. I'm sure a few of us could chip in to buy the software.....how much is it?

ldivinag

01-22-2008, 04:59 PM

on the second page, how about highlighting all references to the code, even in the middle of a paragraph?

Librarian

01-22-2008, 05:27 PM

EDIT: Sorry, just saw you are using different software that won't let you create clean files to begin with. I'm sure a few of us could chip in to buy the software.....how much is it?

Usually $297, $197 if purchased from their web site (http://www.smartdraw.com/buy/) before Jan 29.

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 05:30 PM

I don't think it's worth it. With how little the program will be used. The money would be better spent on other things.

If we need to edit in the future, I can download the trial version againand install it on a different computer.

I'll post Ver 1.0 soon. I've saved it, just need to screen print and crop to post on the thread.

impactco

01-22-2008, 05:40 PM

Too bad the trial version puts a watermark when I save it as a PDF/WORD/EXCEL files. As it's much clearer and easier to read.

To get a utility that creates a .pdf file go here:

http://www.pdf995.com/

This program installs a .pdf printer driver on your system. You can then output a .pdf version of your wonderful creation to a file. Hope this is helpful.

MonsterMan

01-22-2008, 05:41 PM

If you get me the final versions, I can make a .pdf for you.

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 06:49 PM

Rifle Chart Ver 1.0 Side A FIXED & UPDATED! Smaller Illegal bubble

See later posts for the most up to date version...

Rifle Chart Ver 1.0 Side B
See later posts for the most up to date version...

Someone can make a PDF from these pictures. The PDF print driver posted above won't create a clean PDF file. When you print with the trial software it also puts a huge watermark on the pages.

None the less. It prints great on glossy photo paper set to high quality.

ldivinag

01-22-2008, 06:59 PM

is the PDF printer causing the watermark?

if yes, check out www.cutepdf.com

MonsterMan

01-22-2008, 07:04 PM

Updated to a later post.

:)

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 07:10 PM

is the PDF printer causing the watermark?

if yes, check out www.cutepdf.com

No the actual flowchart program (SmartDraw 2008 7-day Trial version) will only output the file (PDF, Word, Excel, printer) with a HUGE watermark over each page.

The only way to get a clean picture of it, is to expand my monitor's screen resolution to 1600 X 1200. Then do a screen print of the whole work page. Then crop the other junk on the screen, so that only the chart shows up (1200X1000).

I can go up to even higher screen resolution to get a print screen. But, MS Paint won't let me paste a higher res version. There seems to be a max resolution size you can paste within MS Paint.

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 07:12 PM

Thanks MonsterMan. :)

If I find a friend with the full version of SmartDraw 2008, I'll have them create a PDF files straight from the source file.

Prowler

01-22-2008, 07:14 PM

Rifle Chart Ver 1.0 Side A
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/5382/centerfireidv10am6.th.png (http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centerfireidv10am6.png)
Rifle Chart Ver 1.0 Side A direct link (http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/5382/centerfireidv10am6.png)

Rifle Chart Ver 1.0 Side B
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9381/centerfireidbackv10rw9.th.png (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centerfireidbackv10rw9.png)
Rifle Chart Ver 1.0 Side B direct link (http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9381/centerfireidbackv10rw9.png)

Someone can make a PDF from these pictures. The PDF print driver posted above won't create a clean PDF file. When you print with the trial software it also puts a huge watermark on the pages.

None the less. It prints great on glossy photo paper set to high quality.

Check your personal email...I sent the PDF for version 1.0 to you...:)

MonsterMan

01-22-2008, 07:14 PM

I can make a better quality version, but the file size is going to be much bigger. Let me see what it will look like.

Prowler

01-22-2008, 07:20 PM

I can make a better quality version, but the file size is going to be much bigger. Let me see what it will look like.

I just sent REDHORSE a PDF version 1.0 in 8.5 x 11 via PM. Hopefully, he will upload it. I set it up to print at 350 DPI.

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 07:30 PM

Hold on. I just realized the chart page is a older version. I'm going to update and upload the correct version.

The PDF files will need to be deleted and redone. Be back in a minute, with the correct Side A page (Chart).

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 07:35 PM

Alright I redid my post. If you notice, it has the smaller Illegal Bubble. I was trying to de-emphasize it. The previous one still had the larger bubble.

Blacky

01-22-2008, 07:36 PM

Ive got it compressed to from 798 KB (817,519 bytes) to 386 KB (395,816 bytes) - If someone PM's me an email address I can send it on.

EDIT: Or I can compress another one.

MonsterMan

01-22-2008, 07:39 PM

Ok, this one should be better quality, but still small enough to be easily downloadable.

Link (http://monstermangrip.com/uploads/Rifle_Chart_Version_1_fixed.pdf)

REDHORSE

01-22-2008, 07:45 PM

That one looks real good MonsterMan! :)

Blacky

01-22-2008, 07:49 PM

Looks FN awesome and downloads fast enough. Ive got it compressed to 166 KB (171,002 bytes) 300 DPI, if you need a low bandwidth version.

G17GUY

01-22-2008, 07:50 PM

Looks awsome, so how long till BOF steals it changes the seals and calls it their own?

TWO WEEKS!:43:

LECTRIKHED

01-22-2008, 08:39 PM

I have a licensed version of Adobe PDF professional if you need any help. No watermarks.

LECTRIKHED

01-22-2008, 08:44 PM

Maybe we can come up with a laminated version that people can purchase and carry with them for LEOs they might run into. Maybe we could even send out laminated versions to the different LEOs in California.

Blacky

01-22-2008, 09:04 PM

Definitely secure and author it.

MudCamper

01-23-2008, 09:51 AM

Maybe we can come up with a laminated version that people can purchase and carry with them for LEOs they might run into.

Runnin my copy through the laminator now! :)

EDIT: FYI I printed from the PNG files, using the Windows Photo Printing Wizard. This scales and centers the images perfectly, but it does anti-alias the small fonts too much. They come out a bit grey.

Kestryll

01-23-2008, 10:49 AM

I have two URLs for you:
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.html

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

MudCamper

01-23-2008, 11:15 AM

I have two URLs for you:
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.html

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Cool! But. This is the PDF that has printing problems. Edit: Nevermind. Just have to fiddle with my printer settings to make it work.

Wildhawk66

01-23-2008, 07:08 PM

Very impressive! I will be distributing this to my PD buddies.

For my 2 cents I would only recommend a couple of very minor changes.

First, I would recommend changing the two "FYI:" headings in the two "FYI" information boxes to "NOTE:" I believe this sounds more professional and authoritative. You might also consider making these two boxes italics, or changing the box outline style, as they are a bit unique in the flow chart as they are not a question, a violation statement or an outcome, but are more like cautionary speed bumps. Also, when the chart is printed in black and white, you don't initially notice that the FYI boxes are different than the violation boxes, so italics, or something similar like different box lines might make it easier to see the differences right off the bat.

Also, In the mag-lock box, the last word configurations should read configuration.

This is an excellent tool. Thank you for making it happen!

swhatb

01-23-2008, 09:09 PM

....now I have a reason to go out and get a color cartridge for the printer :D

FortCourageArmory

01-23-2008, 10:02 PM

This flowchart and appendices are AWESOME. I printed up several on my color laser and will be laminating them and offering them to any that want them in the store. Just fantastic work!!!

762cavalier

01-23-2008, 10:31 PM

One more suggestion-

Maybe make the URL links a sticky or something so it doesn't get lost in the jumble?

Blacky

01-24-2008, 12:51 AM

Take the PDF to Kinkos and you can have it printed on water proof laminate. It would be cool to have larger sizes - I'm just guessing but I think people would buy these if someone put them together in a poster format. You could do a new version each year.

REDHORSE

01-24-2008, 02:10 AM

Jicko

01-24-2008, 10:24 AM

I am adding the flowchart to the "newbie thread" in hope that it can answer some of the FAQs.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=56818

Librarian

01-24-2008, 12:47 PM

You could do a new version each year. Jiminy Christmas, I hope not! Next version ought to be about 2010 and say
Remember that assault weapon stuff? Never mind... :D

aileron

01-24-2008, 01:19 PM

Jiminy Christmas, I hope not! Next version ought to be about 2010 and say
Remember that assault weapon stuff? Never mind... :D

God I hope your right! Such things are just outside my realm of consciousness. To even hope; Do I dare?

Blacky

01-24-2008, 01:48 PM

Jiminy Christmas, I hope not! Next version ought to be about 2010 and say
Remember that assault weapon stuff? Never mind... :D

I try - I'm trying - Damn training wheels! I would be so much better off in a cabin, 100 miles from town.

MonsterMan

01-24-2008, 02:31 PM

Well, I don't know if anyone has updated the .PDF file of the new 1st page, so here is one.

Link (http://monstermangrip.com/uploads/CAAWID_Ver_1b.pdf)

:)

HK fan

01-24-2008, 05:51 PM

nice work all of you

MudCamper

01-28-2008, 05:21 PM

Things to add to the next version, at some future date:

1 - a note somewhere that states that detachable magazines larger than 10 round capacity are legal - many people get confused on this issue after seeing that more than 10 round mags are illegal on the fixed builds

2 - a note somewhere stating that the DROS process and 4473 forms are not the same thing as registration - there are people who own now illegal CA AWs and think that they are legal because they think that they "registered" them but they did not

retired

01-28-2008, 11:54 PM

I wanted to print the flow chart that Kestryll showed in the first link (the url).
When I printed it, (I stupidly didn't look at it carefully in the preview, or I wouldn't have, since I wasted ink) part of the right side is cut off.

On the first page, I lost everything in the blue box on the right after the "1" at the very top: Penal Code s 1.... At the bottom, it only went to "flare"

On the 2nd page, I only got half of the first muzzle brake at the bottom and that demarcation went all the way to the top of the page.

I'm not computer literate, so is there anyone who can provide simple instructions on how to have both pages print completely. Also, I noted the print is pretty small and not the easiest to read. I would hate to have anyone reading just say they can't and suffer any consequences. Any help on that also.

I apologize for the length of this. Thank you.

REDHORSE

01-29-2008, 12:55 AM

I posted this earlier in Post #115 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=944402&postcount=115). It prints out just fine for me, when I do the following:

For those trying to print it. Save both pictures onto your HD. Right click on the picture file (in Explorer) and click print.

The Print Wizard for Windows XP SP2, oriented and automatically sized it to fit onto a single page on my home network. Set the print quality to High, so that the text will be easier to read.

Reload the printed page back onto your printer (orient it correctly into your paper feed tray), so that you can print the back side. Use the steps above to print the 2nd page onto the backside of the chart. Again, set the print quality to High, so that the text will be easier to read.

"Full page FAX Print" is what I select in the Print Wizard for Windows XP SP2. It is automatically oriented correctly and sized to fit the page. When printed in High Quality mode and on good paper (Photo paper preferable), it's very readable.

thisismyboomstick

02-01-2008, 04:54 PM

I just thought it would be appropriate for me to post a photo of the rifle that inspired me to create the flowchart.

All matching number G1 kit built on a DSA type 1 receiver with fixed 5 round mag. Still needs a good buttplate.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k175/thisismyboomstick/Rifles/Fal/G1/NewStock007.jpg

gosparx

02-05-2008, 07:26 AM

AWESOME WORK!! One suggestion... I would put it even more prominently on the front page of the website. It's such incredibly valuable collection information, but I only stumbled across it by accident tonight! (been on since March 06, but yeah... I didn't bother going to the "New to Calguns? Check here first" until just now when it looked like that would be the best place to find the newest version of the flowchart)

Once again kudos to everyone. I've never seen so many people (who for the most part have never meet) work so well together to create something so useful!!

Now... sorry for wanting to have my cake and eat it too... along with a nice glass of cold milk... but any talk about doing one for pistols?? Especially for someone looking to build AR or AK pistols??

I "think" I've got the whole mess worked out in my head so it can be done legally, but I dread having to explain it all to someone at a range some day!! (and I'd hate to have figured something wrong or missed a key bit of info and end up building myself a hand held felony)

In fact, just this past week I spent time with an FFL discussing the legality of a pistol he had for sale (actually one he had already sold me and I was just waiting the 10 days)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=83035&highlight=claridge

Such a chart would have been nice and saved us both a lot of time.

Did anyone ever send this to the CA-DOJ? Or was it beyond their ability to comprehend? Maybe you could make one with JUST pictures and NO actual words... Better yet, make it a pop-up book. Little paper guns could pop-up and show legal and illegal configurations??)

(actually, my 18 year old son just gave me a Star Wars pop-up book that is truly an amazing work of mechanical genius!)

BRAVO again on the chart... I'll be anxiously awaiting the pistol version!!!

Scarecrow Repair

02-05-2008, 08:11 AM

FYI: magazine locks ...A rifle equipped with a magazine lock requires a tool to remove the magazine from the firearm, the rifle is considered in a "fixed magazine" configurations.

There's no verb there. Maybe it should start with "If".

You don't want plural on the last word.

The rifle overall length box has confusing full stops: The rifle's overall length is measured with the stock in the collapsed/ folded position. (if equipped.) Probably better as "... position (if equipped)."

Blue box on the far right: The first line is a question, and probably should end with "?" instead of ":":Does the rifle have any of these features:

Yer friendly neighborhood nitpicker at yer service. Feel free to pay as much attention to my worries as you paid in cash for them :-)

383green

02-05-2008, 09:12 AM

Did anyone ever send this to the CA-DOJ? Or was it beyond their ability to comprehend? Maybe you could make one with JUST pictures and NO actual words... Better yet, make it a pop-up book. Little paper guns could pop-up and show legal and illegal configurations??)

:rofl: :smilielol5: :rofl2:

Maybe it should also include a "Where's Iggy?" motif, with a little Iggy hiding somewhere on each page?

:iggy:

gosparx

02-05-2008, 10:28 AM

Did anyone ever print this out (in any kind of bulk) and have them laminated?

If so I would love to buy a copy (or actually several copies)

thanks

REDHORSE

02-21-2008, 06:41 PM

Any more opinions or revisions to be made?

I'm thinking about downloading the Smart Draw demo version again onto my 2nd home PC to work on fixing some minor grammatical errors pointed out for Version 1.0C. The Demo is only good for about a week, so I won't install it unless we have some updating to do.

Should we add a disclaimer. Basically to state that this chart isn't a legal document and that a person should seek professional legal advice from an Attorney specializing on CA firearms laws if they have any questions?

Yea, it would be funny to add some easter egg little quotes or little pics to the chart margins for some fun. "two weeks", " ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ", nice tiny Iggy desk... lol Probably best we stick to the high road and leave them out. ;)

Prowler

02-22-2008, 09:35 AM

Legal disclaimer would be a good idea...

xrMike

02-22-2008, 11:10 AM

Any more opinions or revisions to be made?

I finally got the time to look it over carefully...

Global changes:

"Center Fire" to "Center-fire"
"center fire" to "center-fire"
"centerfire" to "center-fire"

Blue box #1:
Change "Is the center-fire rifle registered..." to "Was the centerfire rifle registered..." (key word = "before", which determines the verb tense)

Yellow box #1 re: active duty military:
Delete the comma and change "personally owned" to "personally-owned".

Blue box #3:
Change "16 inches in length?" to "16 inches long?" (personal bugaboo ==> always use the least amount of words to make your point; unless you're a lawyer, which means you are involuntarily-compelled to use 1000 words when 50 will do)

Orange box (pc 12020 (c)(2)):
mispelling: change "permenantly" to "permanently" and add hyphen ("permanently-installed")

Orange box (pc 12280):
Change "shoulder fired" to "shoulder-fired" and add period after "included" (for consistency)

Orange box (pc12276.1 (a)(3)):
Delete first period (after "position") and move 2nd period to after the end-paren. ")."

Blue box #6:
Remove quotes from around ".50 BMG"; unnecessary.

Blue box #7 re: overall length:
Change "shorter" to "less" (for consisent use of term "less than")

Orange box re: mag locks:
Delete "FYI:" (unnecessary and possibly unclear to some people); or use the word "Note:" (in bold) instead.
Delete ":" from "locks:"
Change last sentence in box to: "A rifle equipped with a magazine lock requires a tool to remove the magazine from the firearm. Therefore, it is configured with a "fixed magazine" that is not legally considered "detachable"."

(you can fix that last sentence any number of ways, but the way it's written now, the comma makes the last half a run-on sentence)

Orange box re: grips:
Delete "FYI:" entirely, or change it to "Note:" (in bold) instead.
Change "Neither... nor..." sentence construction to "MonsterMan(tm) grips and California Rifles' U15(tm) stocks do not meet the criteria of a pistol grip."
Change "shooter" to "user" (less scary)
Change "grip the rifle in" to "grip the rifle with"
Also, is the word "conspicuously" used in the wording of the law itself? If YES, keep it. If NO, use some other word like "prominently" or "noticeably" or "greatly". (again, it's a $10-word-versus-$2-word thing; 5/10 people don't know what "conspicuously" means, or how to pronounce it)

Orange "Illegal" oval:
Capitalize "ILLEGAL" (for consistency with other LEGAL boxes)
Delete ":" and "," (colon and comma unnecessary)

Straighten out that "YES" line between the blue and orange boxes, bottom-middle of page.

Also, this is just a personal opinion, but I think the orange-flagged items should be switched back to red. Flowcharts are 'process' tools, and there's no better visual aid for 'stop' versus 'go' decision points in your process than 'red' versus 'green'. Orange just muddies the waters. Besides, you're either legal or you're not, and if you're not, an orange box on a flow-chart is NOT going to save you (nor should it). Again, just my opinion...

Most important, my main comment is: This is really a great tool and thanks for putting so much effort into it. :D

Blackwater OPS

02-22-2008, 12:51 PM

After "is the rifle listed in Appendix B or C but before "Violates..." should there be something like, did you buy this rifle from Evan, Iggy's buddy who is immune from CA gun laws?

mikehaas

02-23-2008, 08:37 AM

Love the flowchart - easy to foldup and carry to gun shows, but what about a website that would guide the user through the questions? (I'm offering to build such a beast if there is concensus it would be worthwhile.)

Only one question would appear on the screen at a time, should be much simpler to follow. Could also have illustrations accompanying the questions.

edwardm

02-23-2008, 11:39 AM

Someone brought one of these to Coyote Point in the last few days (saw it there in the control booth this morning while digging for a tape measure).

Whoever brought it to the range, please PM me.

Thanks.

68kaiser

02-23-2008, 12:40 PM

I went to the local print shop and had 2 copies made, the "chart" in one side the "laws" on the other. it was expensive $1 a side for color that sucked. I got one laminated ($2 extra) to keep in my gun case, with the gun and the other to have or give to someone that can use it (LOE) if given the chance.

It came out looking very nice laminated. I feel better having it with thanks again for all the work and time it took to make.

ViPER395

02-23-2008, 12:50 PM

Why is this thread still not stickey'd? :confused:

mods = :sleeping:

:D

Blackwater OPS

02-23-2008, 01:13 PM

Why is this thread still not stickey'd? :confused:

mods = :sleeping:

:D

Well the chart is already on every page...

leelaw

02-24-2008, 02:52 AM

I showed a B/W printout copy to a Sgt at a local PD. I told him I could get some color, two-sided, laminated copies, and he was very interested.

I'm headed to Kinkos tomorrow.

Kruzr

02-24-2008, 09:59 AM

Why is this thread still not stickey'd? :confused:

mods = :sleeping:

:D

It might be easier for everyone if just the latest version of the chart is made a sticky and not all the versions, corrections, and opinons. :)

Blackwater OPS

02-24-2008, 12:07 PM

It might be easier for everyone if just the latest version of the chart is made a sticky and not all the versions, corrections, and opinons. :)

:banghead:Look right above where it says "Welcome, Kruzr"....

Wildhawk66

03-03-2008, 06:03 PM

Just noticed that the flow chart on the websites header is version 1. A more recent version was posted a few pages earlier in the thread in case a mod is interested in updating...

SkyStorm82

03-19-2008, 08:04 PM

DO you honestly think that any LEO will give it more than a glance ?

From the LEO's that I have seen if something like this did not come down from the top of their department or directly from DOJ they don't pay it any mind what so ever.

I have a few friends that are LEO's and this is what they have told me.
One works for the state and the other is a county sheriff deputy.

Ummm...."Cheaters" as they are called are real popular and this flowchart looks every bit like any other cheater cops carry. As far as I'm concerned....it's a cheater.

I have a whole folder filled with various "cheaters" and so does everyone else I know. These cheaters have all been made out by other cops who took the time to make things simple...not from dept brass or the DOJ.

By the way....which version is being endorsed as the proper one by the majority here? ETA: Nevermind...I found it.