Home Search Warrants and Gun Safes... [Archive]

Shane916

01-10-2008, 07:57 PM

If you have a Gun safe in your house, can a police officer open the locked safe if he has a search warrant for the house?

Also, if you have a locked rifle case in the back of your vehicle, can an officer open the locked case or does he need additional consent?

Thanks
Joe

Yes. I actually asked that exact question to my professor who was a Special Agent for the ATF. He said that suspects usually will open their safe when threatened with brute force... on the safe not the suspect of course :)

The car situation depends.. officers are allowed to physically inspect any firearm in your vehicle to ensure the firearm is in compliance with the law.

bwiese

01-10-2008, 08:03 PM

If you have a Gun safe in your house, can a police officer open the locked safe if he has a search warrant for the house?

I believe a regular warrant would not include the gun safe, unless that were specifically listed on the warrant, or somehow the warrant listed 'all enclosed containers' in house etc.

They can always buy you a new safe ;)

Also, if you have a locked rifle case in the back of your vehicle, can an officer open the locked case or does he need additional consent?

Hmm, grey area. Cops are allowed to/you are required to let them inspect firearms. If it really looks like a gun case then push comes to shove....

So if there's no visible gun or gun container, cop can't articulate gun is there unless you talked and gave him a clue or consent. Don't put yourself in this situation, keep gun stuff outta plain view so you can NEVER consent to search, and if asked about contents, just say "...there are no illegal items in this vehicle."

King$nake

01-10-2008, 08:08 PM

I believe a regular warrant would not include the gun safe, unless that were specifically listed on the warrant, or somehow the warrant listed 'all enclosed containers' in house etc.

They can always buy you a new safe ;)

Hmm, grey area. Cops are allowed to/you are required to let them inspect firearms. If it really looks like a gun case then push comes to shove....

So if there's no visible gun or gun container, cop can't articulate gun is there unless you talked and gave him a clue or consent. Don't put yourself in this situation, keep gun stuff outta plain view so you can NEVER consent to search, and if asked about contents, just say "...there are no illegal items in this vehicle."

Good stuff. Thank you sir. Chances are a situation will never arise like this but its always good to know just in case.

rssslvr

01-10-2008, 08:43 PM

Mssr. Eleganté

01-10-2008, 09:21 PM

Bill is 100% correct,a warrant must state what they are looking for and what they are to search.

I thought warrants focused on the specific item or items they are looking for at a specific address or addresses and the police were allowed to look anywhere in the house that those items might reasonably be able to be found.

So if an item listed on the warrant could fit into your gunsafe then the police are allowed to search your gunsafe, as long as the gunsafe is at the premises listed on the warrant. I don't think the gunsafe has to be listed on the warrant.

Shane916

01-10-2008, 09:27 PM

I thought warrants focused on the specific item or items they are looking for at a specific address or addresses and the police were allowed to look anywhere in the house that those items might reasonably be able to be found.

So if an item listed on the warrant could fit into your gunsafe then the police are allowed to search your gunsafe, as long as the gunsafe is at the premises listed on the warrant. I don't think the gunsafe has to be listed on the warrant.

From everything I learned thus far, I concur with you.

Ech0Sierra

01-10-2008, 09:48 PM

If the warrant says automobile, I doubt that could fit, so only if the item in question fits.

bwiese

01-10-2008, 09:50 PM

From everything I learned thus far, I concur with you.

No, this is why TMLLP passes out those magnets for your gunsafe.

Locations have to be specified. "General warrant" doesn't include that.

If the warrant specified the safe, then that's different.

If you folks get into that situation (and you know you're clean), let the idiot cops blowtorch the safe and DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION.

Shane916

01-10-2008, 10:00 PM

No, this is why TMLLP passes out those magnets for your gunsafe.

Locations have to be specified. "General warrant" doesn't include that.

If the warrant specified the safe, then that's different.

If you folks get into that situation (and you know you're clean), let the idiot cops blowtorch the safe and DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION.

I assume law enforcement would gain entry to the safe either way? If it wasn't listed on the original search warrant I would imagine they would secure the safe and easily obtain a search warrant for it and the contents within.

bwiese

01-10-2008, 10:08 PM

I assume law enforcement would gain entry to the safe either way? If it wasn't listed on the original search warrant I would imagine they would secure the safe and easily obtain a search warrant for it and the contents within.

Not necessarily. They barge thru, overextend themeselves, maybe open it without your consent

NEVER GIVE CONSENT, it's far better off for you if something were found as that might well not be useable against you.

DO YOU FRIGGIN HEAR ME? NEVER F**KNG GIVE CONSENT.
Only if it specifically says "gun safe" on the warrant.

$2000 safes are cheap to replace, esp if the cops illegaly torch thru it and have to buy you a new one :)

Don Kilmer up here just collected a nice bunch fees against SJPD for not having a warrant and barging thru a house - supposedly exigent circumstances, but not- they had plenty of time to call it in.

rssslvr

01-10-2008, 10:38 PM

I know some one who had a search warrant served on his house and it listed seprately house and guest house(both had same street and mailing address),all out buildings,vehicles and safes ect.ect..If all they had to do was list an address and what they were looking for then why would they have gone through all the trouble of listing what they intended to search along with what they were looking for?There's no way they would have known if he had a safe or not but they had safes listed as to cover all the basis.He was arrested and set to go to court at that point

*arraignment*
no charges filied yet so it gets set for 2 weeks from then,still no charges and the DA has still not graced the court with his presence.

Almost right after arraignment the second time the same judge only filling in in civil court for the day ordered the return of his firearms and all other property seized from his home because
the warrent said take pictures,coppies of serial numbers or identifiy marks of items that could be considered contriband,said nothing about seizing them(they seized them anyway)Judge agreed they didn't have a right to seize the firearms or property and could only take pics and copy serial number and identifiying marks as the warrant stated.The property release request filed to the court was done so by the defendent on his own with no counsel after much research.

In the end the judge threw it out because of a few reasons,

1 DA kept comming up with excuse after excuse why he hadn't filled yet (you could tell the judge was getting pissed)

2 DA would never show up to court

3 no crime had been commited and all property had been returned to it's rightful owner

If you are ever in a situation like that read the warrant very carefully and it will tell you what they can and can not do

BillCA

01-10-2008, 10:50 PM

Of course, the first thing is to not do anything that would cause the police to get a search warrant in the first place.

A warrant must include the person or things to be seized, the location to be searched ("the residence at 123 Elm St.", city and state, the time of service (between 8 and 4pm, daylight hours, or specifically authorizing night service). If your residence has a detached garage, it must be indicated ("including the garage on the property") and any outbuildings, toolsheds, pump houses, must be specified.

I don't know if a locked desk, cabinet, locker, footlocker, chest, trunk or similar container has the same need for a separate warrant as a safe. I would presume so.

If the warrant says automobile, I doubt that could fit, so only if the item in question fits.

Essentially correct. However, many times a warrant for something like a car, motorcycle, jet-ski, etc. might read that they can search for the vehicle "and parts thereof" in case it has been dismantled or partially so. This gives them opportunities to look in much smaller areas.

Likewise, if police are searching for a grand piano and want to look in your kitchen cabinets, there is no reasonable expectation that they will find it stuffed with a grand piano.

If police are looking for "computer chips" or similar small stolen items, just about any nook/cranny is open to them.

If they want into a safe, let them open it. You can file for damages later if it turns out they needed another warrant or their info was bad on the search.

If you live with room mates, they can give consent to search only their room(s) and the common areas of the residence, IIRC. They cannot legally give consent for a search of your bedroom unless it's a "common area" for them (i.e. daily use to access the shower) and even that is iffy.

For auto searches, a locked briefcase (one of the old hardsided Samsonite types) does not look like a gun case and can hold a several handguns in boxes or gun rugs. They will have to get your consent or a warrant to open the briefcase though.

King$nake

01-11-2008, 01:15 AM

KenpoProfessor

01-11-2008, 04:02 AM

Man I just seen the movie National Treasure 2 and I know it was just a movie but they quoted Ben Franklin as saying that "no man should ever be afraid of our Government". Why am I so afraid to go shooting, anywhere? Even at the range I always feel like somebody is peeking over my shoulder. Even though I am 100% legal.

What I am scared most of is a LEO that doesn't know the law.

Which again, is the main reason I moved. I was lambasted with invective and vitriolic statements from some of the LEOs on the forum for saying something very similar.

Needless to say, life has become so much easier to stay easily within the boundaries of the law, and I have yet been given a reason to fear our Police or Sheriffs here. I can't even begin to extoll the virtues of the peace of mind I have now.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

daves100

01-11-2008, 08:23 AM

TMLLP passes out those magnets for your gunsafe.

what do they say and where do i get one

Hoop

01-11-2008, 08:36 AM

Locked containers like safes must be specified in the warrant. According a lawyer buddy of mine locked desks & jewelry boxes also count. One of his clients had some contraband in a locked desk, cops jimmied it with a crowbar, judge said no-go.

Never consent to a search of anything of yours. Ever.

What I am scared most of is a LEO that doesn't know the law.

That would be the majority of them, especially when it comes to firearms laws.

Fjold

01-11-2008, 09:01 AM

TMLLP passes out those magnets for your gunsafe.

what do they say and where do i get one

Sorry for the picture quality. TMLLP was sending them out if you donated to BWO's defense but I'm sure if you contact them, you can get one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/SafeSign-1.jpg

MudCamper

01-11-2008, 10:16 AM

I actually have this note taped to my safe:

This safe and all of it’s contents are the personal property of <name ommitted>.

No person besides Mr. X has or has ever had access to this safe or it’s contents.

Further, all of the contents of this safe are legal to possess in the state of California, and the county of Sonoma. For a detailed list of items herein, including serial numbers, please contact Mr. X.

Amendment IV of the Constitution of the United States of America:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Section 13, of Article 1, of the California Constitution:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable seizures and searches may not be violated; and a warrant may not issue except on probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons and things to be seized.

Paladin

01-11-2008, 10:16 AM

So if there's no visible gun or gun container, cop can't articulate gun is there unless you talked and gave him a clue or consent. Don't put yourself in this situation, keep gun stuff outta plain view so you can NEVER consent to search, and if asked about contents, just say "...there are no illegal items in this vehicle."So what do you think about having pro-gun bumper stickers (e.g., calguns.net bumper stickers, NRA membership decals, etc.) on your vehicle? Are those asking for trouble from LEOs or criminals (who find out where you live)?

bwiese

01-11-2008, 10:36 AM

So what do you think about having pro-gun bumper stickers (e.g., calguns.net bumper stickers, NRA membership decals, etc.) on your vehicle? Are those asking for trouble from LEOs or criminals (who find out where you live)?

It might escalate situation a bit.

However. those stickers are expressing political sentiments, a very protected area.

It would kinda be like searching cars with a "Democrat" bumper sticker for drugs.

Thrillbilly

01-11-2008, 10:47 AM

King$nake

01-11-2008, 01:49 PM

It would kinda be like searching cars with a "Democrat" bumper sticker for drugs.

Thats good stuff right there hahaha

Paladin

01-11-2008, 03:08 PM

It might escalate situation a bit.

However. those stickers are expressing political sentiments, a very protected area.

It would kinda be like searching cars with a "Democrat" bumper sticker for drugs.Thanks for the reply re LEOs. Perhaps more accurate would be a "Democrats for Drug Legalization" bumper sticker.

Re. crooks: I'll never forget what I once read, that guns and prescription drugs are the only goods that sell for more if they are stolen than if they are legal.

ptoguy2002

01-11-2008, 03:16 PM

It might escalate situation a bit.

However. those stickers are expressing political sentiments, a very protected area.

It would kinda be like searching cars with a "Democrat" bumper sticker for drugs.

Thats funny.

I have an NRA member sticker on my truck, and a "federal terrorist hunting permit : no bag limit" sticker.

Proud of it too.

metalhead357

01-11-2008, 06:33 PM

Haha....So what if the warrent actually says SAFE....but you have TWO???? LOL!!!!!!!!

artherd

01-11-2008, 11:02 PM

Yes. I actually asked that exact question to my professor who was a Special Agent for the ATF. He said that suspects usually will open their safe when threatened with brute force... on the safe not the suspect of course :)

I'd like to see them ****ing try... and then buy me a new house later.

Safes *CAN* be included on warrants, but they must be specifically included or they are not part of the searchable area.

artherd

01-11-2008, 11:08 PM

Haha....So what if the warrent actually says SAFE....but you have TWO???? LOL!!!!!!!!

YOU LET THEM SEARCH THE ONE THAT *DOSEN'T* HOLD YOUR COKE AND HOOKERS! :D

Exiledviking

01-11-2008, 11:17 PM

To further expand this a little, possibly a thread drift.

Can the police seize any or all of your guns if you are involved in a incident where you use a firearm?

bwiese

01-11-2008, 11:49 PM

To further expand this a little, possibly a thread drift.

Can the police seize any or all of your guns if you are involved in a incident where you use a firearm?

Fair chance. Even a legit shoot DA doesn't file on may have you detained for a bit for "suspicion of murder".

Exiledviking

01-12-2008, 12:04 AM

But would they have the right to seize guns other than the one that was used in the incident?

BillCA

01-13-2008, 01:33 AM

Can the police seize any or all of your guns if you are involved in a incident where you use a firearm?
But would they have the right to seize guns other than the one that was used in the incident?

If you are involved in an "incident" at your residence, it's a crime scene. They have pretty broad powers to investigate it as such. If there is the least bit suspicion that it's not self-defense, expect that they will probably at least look into every room and closet. If they find your guns, it's likely they will seize them while investigating you for a felony. If all your other guns are locked in a safe, they'll need to get a warrant to open it.

If you are involved in an "incident" away from home, expect investigators will eventually figure out you have other guns and possibly get a warrant to seize them during the investigation or if they plan to charge you with a felony. Having a trusted friend who can store them for you for a "fee" (ideally in his own safe), before the cops execute the warrant may only delay their seizure.

ViPER395

01-13-2008, 12:07 PM

If you are involved in an "incident" at your residence, it's a crime scene. They have pretty broad powers to investigate it as such. If there is the least bit suspicion that it's not self-defense, expect that they will probably at least look into every room and closet. If they find your guns, it's likely they will seize them while investigating you for a felony. If all your other guns are locked in a safe, they'll need to get a warrant to open it.

If you are involved in an "incident" away from home, expect investigators will eventually figure out you have other guns and possibly get a warrant to seize them during the investigation or if they plan to charge you with a felony. Having a trusted friend who can store them for you for a "fee" (ideally in his own safe), before the cops execute the warrant may only delay their seizure.

I've often wondered this and decided that if I ever store all my guns in my own home (I don't now) I will have a trusted neighbor that I can take them to in the chance that something like this happens (or a domestic issue).

Would dispensing your firearms (minus the one you just used for SD) someplace else (relative or neighbor) before the PD arrive on-scene be considered a crime, or make you look guilty? Would they (DA or investigators) use it as evidence against your case if they found out?

I would risk it and safehouse them on the fly if I had OLLs or registered AWs. Both of which I do not.

DedEye

01-13-2008, 12:39 PM

I've often wondered this and decided that if I ever store all my guns in my own home (I don't now) I will have a trusted neighbor that I can take them to in the chance that something like this happens (or a domestic issue).

Would dispensing your firearms (minus the one you just used for SD) someplace else (relative or neighbor) before the PD arrive on-scene be considered a crime, or make you look guilty? Would they (DA or investigators) use it as evidence against your case if they found out?

I would risk it and safehouse them on the fly if I had OLLs or registered AWs. Both of which I do not.

It would probably be a crime to store registered AWs at someone else's house given the transportation restrictions on them.

bwiese

01-13-2008, 02:07 PM

It would probably be a crime to store registered AWs at someone else's house given the transportation restrictions on them.

Not if they were locked up/unloaded and a rental agreement drawn up for the the closet they were stored in. ("I, Joe Blow, agree to rent my 2nd upstairs hall closet to Jim Smith for the storage of various items. I give express permision for Jim Smith to store his legal firearms here, including reg'd AWs, and acknowledge that all these items are the possessions of Jim Smith, and are only being stored at his rented space here, and that no transfer of ownership has been made.")

aarik

01-13-2008, 06:33 PM

so after reading this tread a couple of questions come up...
if your home is searched with or without a warrant and with or without your consent and damage to your property is made (they blowtorch the safe, cut the mattress, break drywall, etc.) can you file for damages if you are later found innocent or the case is dismissed? Will you actually collect the fair value?
What is they seize some property (say a nice 1911) and it is returned to you (years later probably) with damage of some sort, can you file damages then?

-H

hoffmang

01-13-2008, 06:54 PM

Generally you can recover actual damages caused if the damage was unreasonable and especially if you were not guilty.

-Gene

aarik

01-13-2008, 07:07 PM

well then, let them destroy everything if you have nothing to hide :)

metalhead357

01-13-2008, 08:43 PM

well then, let them destroy everything if you have nothing to hide :)

Gotta factor in the break even level. Whats the cost(s) of the lawyers involved to get your stuff back and/or buy new (if you can.....as AW's once gone ARE GONE). So having the cops do $2000 worth of damage vs. $5000 for the lawyers (not to mention your own time) it might not be worth it. But on the other hand if you had an extensive collection and a $3000 safe and they took all and destroyed the safe....then it might make sense to go take 'em to court....

jimx

01-13-2008, 09:35 PM

aarik

01-13-2008, 11:51 PM

Gotta factor in the break even level. Whats the cost(s) of the lawyers involved to get your stuff back and/or buy new (if you can.....as AW's once gone ARE GONE). So having the cops do $2000 worth of damage vs. $5000 for the lawyers (not to mention your own time) it might not be worth it. But on the other hand if you had an extensive collection and a $3000 safe and they took all and destroyed the safe....then it might make sense to go take 'em to court....

i am talking about an innocent person being searched, so one way or another there will be a $$$ cost associated with it. Now it seems from the responses that you will be able to recover the actual damages for your possessions, whereas legal and time costs are never reimbursed directly since "if you can't afford a lawyer, the court will appoint one for you" and your time never counts.
But... you can always write that off on your business saying at the end of the year that "the business" had to pay for your legal fees for the year and lost productivity. I guess the accountant can get creative there.

The sad part is that either way some money and time need to be invested for an innocent person to prove his innocence.

-H

aarik

01-14-2008, 12:00 AM

Could this thread, 5th amendment protects PGP passphrase (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78788)be relevant to this discussion?

Don’t some safe locks have a back door (as in a master combo or a way the factory can open if you forget the combo)? If the safe has a keypad with a backup key it would be easily for a locksmith to show up with all the keys for the model.

My safe has one for sure, they told me when i bought it :)

As far as data encryption goes, that is an interesting tread. The problem with all encryption methods is not the encryption part, but the implementation which is the weak link and the one that will be attacked first.

In general it is not worth spending more on protecting an item than the item is worth.

-H