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bobgengeskahn
09-06-2013, 12:37 PM
Hello all,

Its been a long time since I've looked at Savage, and I am in the market for a bolt action before the end of the year. So while I save my couch change I'm trying to read up on everything.

The role that I am looking to fill is a larger cal (.308+, not opposed to 6.5s, but have heard reloading 6.5 is cost prohibitive), long range (want to get into 800-1000yrd shooting) gun that can also be a good project platform, MOA out of the box is not necessary.

Everything I see has directed me toward 700s and Savages. There is more information on 700s than you can shake a stick at, but I have found little to no technical information/reviews on the newer Savage guns (Stevens, Axis etc.).

I have read that the Stevens 200 is a surprisingly good action to work off of, but what I'm looking for is why it is a good platform.

So what are your opinions? Or does anyone know of a place to read up on the Savage line that cuts through the BS?

CobraRed
09-06-2013, 1:41 PM
My 6.5 costs about the same to reload as my .308. And most things north of .308 are certainly going to be more expensive than either.

I like both my Remington and Savage. If you're going to do ALL the bells and whistles might as well go custom aftermarket action.

Whiterabbit
09-06-2013, 1:55 PM
The savage is a great platform because of cost. The COST to get a 700 (modern one, the ones that "arent as good" as the old ones) shooting as well as a savage WITH accutrigger AND accustock is higher than sticking with the savage.

In my experience, the savage was simply good enough. Right out of the box.

But it gets better. Because of that barrel nut, you can keep your single action and put whatever barrel on and it is very straightforward to headspace. So you can effectively chamber your Savage rifle in any reasonable caliber and some unreasonable ones too (I've even seen 378 weatherby done) very cheaply, and without being a gunsmith.

Pacnor is giving that advantage to the 700's too with the "rem nut" they sell. But it is a compelling advantage for the Savage.

---------
Still more! The savage boltfaces are replaceable. So what is a 30-06 today, is a 257 roberts tomorrow, becomes a 223 wednesday, then a 375 H&H on Thursday. Even a 300 WSM or RUM.
--------

BTW you will find that 6.5-.323, the cost, basically, is gonna be the same to reload. The primers and powder is all a wash, the brass is a 1 time cost for lots of shooting. So really, the major cost to reload are projectiles.

IME there is a substantial price break starting at .257. Those projectiles and smaller are CHEAP! at 6.5 and up, they get a bit more expensive. and .338 and up, it gets pretty wild, pretty fast.

This assumes rifle bullets (yes, even .358 rifle bullets are spendy, even when the .358 pistol bullets are very reasonable.)

--------------

So your goals:

800-1000 yards (I will assume man sized targets)
platform rifle
easy to work on.

Savage does these very well. AND will do it out of the box, particularly if you find an accutrigger and accustock model. But that wasnt a requirement.

russ69
09-06-2013, 2:13 PM
Word to the wise. Nobody shoots a 308 at 1000 yards unless the rules make them use a 308.

Exodus343
09-06-2013, 2:41 PM
Savage makes the 6.5 Creedmoor factory rifle
I would choose a 6.5 over a 308 for 1000 yards anyday
My 6.5x55 swede shoots faster than my 308

And flatter too

infringed711
09-06-2013, 3:44 PM
Love 6.5x55, reloading components aren't really hard to find and you can get privi ammo for 74 cents around if you shop around

SMarquez
09-06-2013, 4:02 PM
Love 6.5x55, reloading components aren't really hard to find and you can get privi ammo for 74 cents around if you shop around
And have pretty good brass left over to reload.

shooterbill
09-06-2013, 4:59 PM
Take a look at the Savage Shooters forum. You can build a sweet rifle off of Savage's target action for about $1300.

nubrun
09-06-2013, 5:09 PM
You can't go wrong with the savage. As others have mentioned the barrel nut is a huge plus in terms of converting it to other calibers.

Along with the target actions ( which are really nice) you can pick up a used savage for cheap and strip it to the action.

toby
09-06-2013, 5:24 PM
Putting a Savage together right now, 243 soon to be Ackerized after about 2-3 hundred rounds, 26" Criterion varmint weight barrel, rifle basix trigger and I will use two different stocks on this one a Composite and a Synthetic for two different applications.

infringed711
09-06-2013, 5:29 PM
I will say my first bolt gun was a savage fcp-k in .308 and it was a great gun for the money

LRShooter
09-06-2013, 9:00 PM
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_62_974/products_id/71098/Savage+12LRP+260+REM

Or get it in 6.5CM.

You can't build a better rifle this cheap.

bobgengeskahn
09-06-2013, 9:16 PM
Thanks for all the info guys!


Along with the target actions ( which are really nice) you can pick up a used savage for cheap and strip it to the action.

Yeah, that was my thinking considering Savage in the first place. I don't really feel the need to get it and shoot immediately (I have other project guns I need to finish up first), but I'd like to pick it up by the end of the year, so ideally I'll be able to find a botched Savage project from someone else that still has a good action I can work off of.

Love 6.5x55, reloading components aren't really hard to find and you can get privi ammo for 74 cents around if you shop around

Yeah, I have been reading that 6.5 is the magic number for BC. I just haven't spent much time reading up on the different types of 6.5. Recently got distracted researching/drooling over .45-70s, but that's an investment for later in life :p

The savage is a great platform because of cost. The COST to get a 700 (modern one, the ones that "arent as good" as the old ones) shooting as well as a savage WITH accutrigger AND accustock is higher than sticking with the savage.

In my experience, the savage was simply good enough. Right out of the box.

But it gets better. Because of that barrel nut, you can keep your single action and put whatever barrel on and it is very straightforward to headspace. So you can effectively chamber your Savage rifle in any reasonable caliber and some unreasonable ones too (I've even seen 378 weatherby done) very cheaply, and without being a gunsmith.

Pacnor is giving that advantage to the 700's too with the "rem nut" they sell. But it is a compelling advantage for the Savage.

---------
Still more! The savage boltfaces are replaceable. So what is a 30-06 today, is a 257 roberts tomorrow, becomes a 223 wednesday, then a 375 H&H on Thursday. Even a 300 WSM or RUM.
--------

BTW you will find that 6.5-.323, the cost, basically, is gonna be the same to reload. The primers and powder is all a wash, the brass is a 1 time cost for lots of shooting. So really, the major cost to reload are projectiles.

IME there is a substantial price break starting at .257. Those projectiles and smaller are CHEAP! at 6.5 and up, they get a bit more expensive. and .338 and up, it gets pretty wild, pretty fast.

This assumes rifle bullets (yes, even .358 rifle bullets are spendy, even when the .358 pistol bullets are very reasonable.)

--------------

So your goals:

800-1000 yards (I will assume man sized targets)
platform rifle
easy to work on.

Savage does these very well. AND will do it out of the box, particularly if you find an accutrigger and accustock model. But that wasnt a requirement.

Yeah, I have heard mixed opinions on the Savage bolt design. Conceptually I get it, and it makes sense to me. And like you and others have said, I like how simple they are to work on with a little know-how and understanding.

I lurk over on Savageshooters from time to time since I hear stripped actions pop up from time to time, but they go FAST. Maybe I'll get lucky :p

Although I do like having a few rounds capacity, which is the only thing keeping me from just picking up one of the single-shot actions to pick up and work off of.

ar15barrels
09-06-2013, 10:57 PM
Everything I see has directed me toward 700s and Savages. There is more information on 700s than you can shake a stick at, but I have found little to no technical information/reviews on the newer Savage guns (Stevens, Axis etc.).

I have read that the Stevens 200 is a surprisingly good action to work off of, but what I'm looking for is why it is a good platform.

So what are your opinions? Or does anyone know of a place to read up on the Savage line that cuts through the BS?

In a Savage build, you are trading the ease of assembly for a less-refined end product.
So, it's easier to assemble a savage, but you end up with a less refined weapon.
It's little things that don't get noticed by casual shooters.
Poor bolt lift.
Poor extraction with hot loads.
Barrels wont hold a zero as they heat up.
Ugly barrel nut.

If you want the nicest gun to actually USE, you will eventually upgrade to something other than a savage.
Just ask every guy that started with a savage and then left the savage behind.
Lots of people leave savage to other makes, but almost nobody leaves other makes to go to a savage.
You gotta wonder why that is, but you would not understand it unless you shoot them enough to feel and see all the differences.

The Savage are great entry-level guns.
They shoot tight groups.
Just don't expect them to run trouble-free for a few hundred rounds at a weekend training class.

We see problems with savage rifles on almost every one of our new precision rifle shooter clinics.

bobgengeskahn
09-06-2013, 11:33 PM
In a Savage build, you are trading the ease of assembly for a less-refined end product.
So, it's easier to assemble a savage, but you end up with a less refined weapon.
It's little things that don't get noticed by casual shooters.
Poor bolt lift.
Poor extraction with hot loads.
Barrels wont hold a zero as they heat up.
Ugly barrel nut.

If you want the nicest gun to actually USE, you will eventually upgrade to something other than a savage.
Just ask every guy that started with a savage and then left the savage behind.
Lots of people leave savage to other makes, but almost nobody leaves other makes to go to a savage.
You gotta wonder why that is, but you would not understand it unless you shoot them enough to feel and see all the differences.

The Savage are great entry-level guns.
They shoot tight groups.
Just don't expect them to run trouble-free for a few hundred rounds at a weekend training class.

We see problems with savage rifles on almost every one of our new precision rifle shooter clinics.

Thank you for the succinct reply!

Since you work with 700s, what would you say is the determining factor when purchasing a new or used 700? I have heard that there is a difference between the "old" 700s and the newer productions, is there a definite model or date to look for when looking for one these days?

I have just spent the last several hours reading about various 6.5 rounds based on the recommendations from others in this thread, particularly the 6.5x55 and 6.5x284. Are there any models that are currently in production that you know of (I just looked through their website and couldn't find any, but its set up terribly if you're looking for a particular caliber); or is there a particular 700 platform that would lend itself to a caliber change down the road?

ar15barrels
09-07-2013, 12:08 AM
Since you work with 700s, what would you say is the determining factor when purchasing a new or used 700? I have heard that there is a difference between the "old" 700s and the newer productions, is there a definite model or date to look for when looking for one these days?

I have just spent the last several hours reading about various 6.5 rounds based on the recommendations from others in this thread, particularly the 6.5x55 and 6.5x284. Are there any models that are currently in production that you know of (I just looked through their website and couldn't find any, but its set up terribly if you're looking for a particular caliber); or is there a particular 700 platform that would lend itself to a caliber change down the road?

I have worked on old 700's and new 700's.
There really is not a lot of difference.
The primary difference is that the old ones were all polished and blued so they feel smoother when you run the bolt.
Dimensionally, the old ones were more wanky then the new ones.
CNC machining has actually improved the consistency in the new guns.
Unfortunately, most people start with the SPS series guns because they are $500.
The SPS guns all have a sand blasted metal finish with black oxide.
It literally feels like 240grit sandpaper when you run your finger over it.

However, if you are going to paint the gun anyways, like most custom builds do, the paint sticks really nice and smooths out the feel.

If you go with one of the current production stainless actions such as you find in the $1100 5R models, you get a much smoother glass bead finish.
These guns are truly nice to run right out of the box.
They also shoot lights-out groups, 1/3moa being commonly attained with the stock stainless 5R barrel.

Both the 6.5x55 and 6.5x284 are going to be custom built rifles.
There are not any factory heavy barreled 700's in those calibers.
Those are both long-action cartridges.
I will warn you to go try getting behind a long-action and running the bolt to find out if it taps your nose or not.
People are all built differently.
I can't shoot a long action without being scared of the bolt shroud tapping me on the nose when I run the bolt fast.
This tends to make me lift my face off the stock which is a bad thing if you are trying to keep a consistent cheekweld.
Short actions solve this issue for me, but then you are limited to shorter cartridge lengths like the 308 or any of the variety of cartridges based on the 308 case.
Any short/long 700 action can be re-chambered to almost any appropriate length cartridge.
I built a charity raffle gun last week in 300 win mag that started out as a 70's made remington 700 in 30-06.
We used an aftermarket bolt to change to the larger case head and to tighten up the fit of the bolt in the receiver.

If you are not a reloader, the ammo availability will be an issue.
6.5 Creedmore is a very good option in this regard.
It has factory ammo available that is appropriate to 800-1000yd shooting.
It's a short action cartridge.

If you want to read a lot more good posts I have made on choosing a precision rifle and ammo, go read the stickied threads on the caprc.com forums.
You will probably have to register there to read the good threads as I think only a few of the forums are visible to quests.

Savage vs. Remington really is a Ford vs. Chevy argument.
I'll warn you right now that the savage fanbois will be here shortly to explain all their reasons why Savages are superior.
Remington 700 has more aftermarket parts choices than ALL other makes and models of rifles COMBINED.
It's like using a small block Chevy 350 as compared to a 302 Ford.
Sure, there are some Ford parts, but not nearly as much as a Chevy 350.

Most will label me a 700 fanboi because of my recommendations to go with a 700.
I work on ALL different types of actions, whatever the customer walks through my door with.
Even though the savage guys will tell you they are changing barrels themselves, a surprising number of those savage owners are also having me work on their rifles for them...

bobgengeskahn
09-07-2013, 8:52 AM
Great food for thought.... It looks like either way I should go see if I can get hands on, or even some range time with LA/SA bolts and continue deciding from there.

CobraRed
09-07-2013, 9:16 AM
Great food for thought.... It looks like either way I should go see if I can get hands on, or even some range time with LA/SA bolts and continue deciding from there.

My LA Rem 700 doesn't tap me on the nose - and my Vortex has a pretty shallow eye relief as well. But then again I have long arms and long length of pull.

bombadillo
09-07-2013, 9:28 AM
I'd say buy a good 40-X or 40-XB action and build it up from there. There are a ton of 700 actions or clones out there that are MUCH nicer than the savage action. That said, I do own both the remington and savage action and the 700 just feels better to me. I can't give you an honest detailed response as AR15Barrels can, but it just feels like a solid hunk of metal versus the Savage feeling like cheaper made products and grittier feel.

Another route you can take is looking at Tikka/Sako. If you're not planning on doing a TON to it, they are phenomenal factory shooters, the smoothest action I've probably ever felt on any bolt gun, and you can get the varmint or tactical model with the heavy barrel and change out other things like a chassis, Manners stock, and a whole gob of other goodies for them. If you're not doing a full custom setup with a new barrel and everything, DEFINITELY consider Tikka. If you're planning on a new Krieger or Bartlein barrel, doing a ton of work on the action, and more, then go remington.

bombadillo
09-07-2013, 9:34 AM
One more thing......

http://www.gaprecision.net/components/com_rifles/rifles/templar-v2-action/templar-v2-action/cb9yvtbmwjw212tbzu4l.jpg


http://www.gaprecision.net/components/com_rifles/rifles/templar-action/templar-action/nc279pzvzve74adrnwpg.jpg


If this doesn't evoke some kind of emotion from an action, not much will.

Its a Templar V2 Action from GA Precision. Beautifully machined and amazing finish.

bobgengeskahn
09-07-2013, 9:53 AM
One more thing......

http://www.gaprecision.net/components/com_rifles/rifles/templar-v2-action/templar-v2-action/cb9yvtbmwjw212tbzu4l.jpg


http://www.gaprecision.net/components/com_rifles/rifles/templar-action/templar-action/nc279pzvzve74adrnwpg.jpg


If this doesn't evoke some kind of emotion from an action, not much will.

Its a Templar V2 Action from GA Precision. Beautifully machined and amazing finish.

Oh now we're just posting dirty pictures :p

That is a beautiful piece of work.

As a side note: I noticed the MVP in your sig. Seeing that is what got me started down this road, but eventually I've decided that I may as well just get a big-boy rifle instead :rolleyes: Plus I heard the MVPs are hit or miss on QC...

postal
09-07-2013, 1:55 PM
Just don't expect them to run trouble-free for a few hundred rounds at a weekend training class.

We see problems with savage rifles on almost every one of our new precision rifle shooter clinics.

Weird....

I've seen the mkII rimfires have trigger issues at the 22 comps.... Never heard what the problem was...

My 308 runs trouble free after a dab of locktite on the trigger pull adjustment spring. I wonder if that's the bulk of the issues others are having. I figured out that spring was walking pretty early on... and a dab of locktite fixed that. Otherwise, no issues.

Yes, very weak ejection though... and rough bolt cycle even though I tried to smooth that out stoning/polishing.

--to everyone else--
Yes, Randall works on my savage.

TMB 1
09-07-2013, 2:12 PM
Wow Savage must be going down hill. I only have a couple milsurps that have slicker bolts than my 110E

postal
09-07-2013, 2:43 PM
For a long time now, savages are a little rough on opening the bolt/cocking the hammer.

Fred at sharp shooters supply knows how to fix that. I played with one action he worked over, and it was butter.....

Unfortunately, though his prices are quite reasonable, he is VERY backlogged...

Me personally, I wouldnt mind Fred going over that rifle, I kinda look at like 'polishing a turd' as well... I just cant justify spending the money. Mine shoots quite well. I might rebarrel during the winter season and shoot it next year as a 260/6.5creemoor..

But I want something nicer... custom action build... so I dont want to dump a lot of cash into this savage. Dont know when I'll get around to a full custom build though.

bombadillo
09-07-2013, 3:08 PM
Oh now we're just posting dirty pictures :p

That is a beautiful piece of work.

As a side note: I noticed the MVP in your sig. Seeing that is what got me started down this road, but eventually I've decided that I may as well just get a big-boy rifle instead :rolleyes: Plus I heard the MVPs are hit or miss on QC...


I can honestly say as a MOD on mossbergMVP.com that I've seen a LOT of MVP's come through there. There were only 2 instances that I can think were actually the gun's fault and not the owner. One had a canted base on the gun, and the other had something going on with either the action or barrel and was just a flat out bad shooter. Listening to the owner, I don't think he was the issue to the shooting.

As for the rifle in general, I don't know about you, but I've never seen another rifle under a grand with a target style stock with deep pistol gripped palm swell, medcon fluted 24" barrel, free floating, fluted bolt, detachable magazine (much less AR mags!), 11* target crown and other little niceties on it :D

I got mine for $475 from buds when they first offered them. They had issues with the stocks coming cracked for the first production run initially, but after that they fixed it and they actually offered most folks who wrote or called free shipping both ways, and full warranty replacement but I know for me it wasn't worth getting rid of my rifle especially since it shot so well and I didn't want to screw it up.

As for "big boy rifle", I can't say I know of too many other guns that shoot better than mine does with cheap freedommunitions.com reloads of 55gr Vmax. Here is an average 5 shot group from one outing a couple weeks ago with a light breeze and nice sunny 75* weather at sea level.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l122/bombadillo08/Calguns%20-%20MVP%20file/MVP82413_zpsef02d30c.jpg

Let us know what you do, and I have ALL of the actions from Savage, Remington, Mossberg, and others but I would definitely go Remington for a full custom build. Do it once, and do it right. For an out of the box shooter that you don't want to do other than bolt some goodies on, again I would choose the Tikkas like I said a few posts ago. If you're wanting an awesome out of the box with a really nice stock that you can guarantee a 3/4" or less gun with match ammo and your choice of scope, get this:

http://gundata.org/data/guns/Beretta-Tikka-T3-Sporter-632e52a2e2322e968faaa7e3ebbede11a-thumb-0-0.png

http://www.tikka.fi/images/t3/details/sporter_stock.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7133/6857784094_6439120634_b.jpg

Enjoy the eye candy, and hope this helps some.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and we all know the saying that goes along with that..... ;):D

infringed711
09-07-2013, 3:36 PM
Those tikka sporters come in 6.5x55 too, been looking for one myself

LynnJr
09-08-2013, 6:17 AM
Even though the savage guys will tell you they are changing barrels themselves, a surprising number of those savage owners are also having me work on their rifles for them...

If you can't change the barrel on a Savage you most likely have AAA change your flat tires as well.
If you ever go to a Benchrest match feeble old men who can barely walk swap out barrels in 5 minutes time on a regular basis.The Savage is easier.

Army
09-08-2013, 5:41 PM
Randall has never worked on any of my Savages. And, I do not own a single Remington product :D

If you want custom work, easy bolt lift (whatever that is, nancy-boy!), barrels, stocks, triggers and tools, Then check out Sharp Shooter Supply, and be happy happy happy (www.sharpshootersupply.com)

GJC
09-08-2013, 6:03 PM
We see problems with savage rifles on almost every one of our new precision rifle shooter clinics.


Crap, I'm gonna be one of those guys when the next clinics start!!

GJC
09-08-2013, 6:04 PM
http://www.gaprecision.net/components/com_rifles/rifles/templar-v2-action/templar-v2-action/cb9yvtbmwjw212tbzu4l.jpg


http://www.gaprecision.net/components/com_rifles/rifles/templar-action/templar-action/nc279pzvzve74adrnwpg.jpg


I would take that to bed with me :D

Exodus343
09-08-2013, 11:04 PM
Anyone knowhow much the GAP Templar actions cost? Doesn't say on their website

And Randall: holy s***! if a long action will hit your nose, it'll definitely hit mine since your much taller than me :facepalm:

There goes my 6.5x55 build lol

bobgengeskahn
09-08-2013, 11:28 PM
Anyone knowhow much the GAP Templar actions cost? Doesn't say on their website

And Randall: holy s***! if a long action will hit your nose, it'll definitely hit mine since your much taller than me :facepalm:

There goes my 6.5x55 build lol

Theres always the 6.5 Creedmoor or the .260 in short actions...

As an aside, does anyone have experience with the life expectancy of a 6.5x55 barrel in long range shooting? I have heard everything from "average" (5000+) for hunting all the way down to 2000 with high velocity loads.

I'm assuming 1k shooting is more on the end of high velocity since the round was originally a military/hunting round, and not necessarily meant for LR shooting. If it is as low as some of the estimates I have seen, it would be a pretty good push for me to go with a Savage action. I don't particularly like mailing my guns away or having shops work on them extensively, there is a shortage of shops and competent smiths in my area, and I have heard stories of people getting burned pretty bad.

Whiterabbit
09-09-2013, 7:37 AM
Hey Kahn,

Just a little more about the savage. AR15barrels says none he has seen will do a hundred rounds or so without giving problems. I am willing to believe that. My savage NEVER had an action problem, a magazine problem, a bolt problem, it was all slick. But the barrel was a comparative pencil @ .75" diameter at the muzzle for a 338 lapua. I could go about 3 rounds before the barrel needed some cool time. if I went over 5 rounds quickly, the barrel was VERY hot and took a VERY long time to cool. If I was in a class, this would be a problem.

I am willing to bet though, had I replaced the barrel with another one that was full bull, I would have had no issues.

as to paying someone else to swap a barrel, well, I can understand that too. If the guy doesnt want to make a switch barrel, just replace a barrel, and is looking at a $50 charge to swap the barrel or a $45 wrench PLUS barrel vise (free if you own a drill press and vise) PLUS headspace gauges, well, I understand why it's easier to just farm the work.

BUT, what is nice about the switch barrel is you can buy ANY suitable savage without regard to the cartridge. With the Rem700, it may be wise to consider the boltface or other considerations.

-------------

But really, I posted to talk about mag cap. I assume the rem700 has this too, but Savage has replaceable bottom metal so you can use AI mags. And I'll bet you can get them cheaper than for the 700 :)

jetman624
09-09-2013, 9:46 AM
If you want to read a lot more good posts I have made on choosing a precision rifle and ammo, go read the stickied threads on the caprc.com forums.


Very informative thread over there on this topic-- thanks for taking the time to write that up.

postal
09-09-2013, 1:07 PM
Hey Kahn,

Just a little more about the savage. AR15barrels says none he has seen will do a hundred rounds or so without giving problems. I am willing to believe that.

Not entirely true... Randall knows I shoot a savage in the comps.

Never dropped out because of rifle problems. Dropped out of one match since I changed something on the rifle and lost my zero. Cold bore was 5 ft right and 5 ft high.... Forget it... I'm out!:D

ar15barrels
09-09-2013, 1:18 PM
Anyone knowhow much the GAP Templar actions cost?

They don't sell actions.
You can buy the same action from defiance though for around $900 to $1400 depending on which variant.
I recommend the "Deviant" as its all one piece receiver, rail and lug.

ar15barrels
09-09-2013, 1:20 PM
As an aside, does anyone have experience with the life expectancy of a 6.5x55 barrel in long range shooting? I have heard everything from "average" (5000+) for hunting all the way down to 2000 with high velocity loads.

Barrel life depends on your accuracy requirement.
If you require 1/2 moa, plan on rebarreling around 2000-2500 rounds.
If you only require 1moa, you can probably go to 3500 rounds or more.

Exodus343
09-09-2013, 1:23 PM
They don't sell actions.
You can buy the same action from defiance though for around $900 to $1400 depending on which variant.
I recommend the "Deviant" as its all one piece receiver, rail and lug.


oh.... yeah
I think I might just get another r700 and strip it, LOL


hey Randall how much would it be to bed, blueprint, and true my action?
please pm me the quote :)

ar15barrels
09-09-2013, 1:27 PM
AR15barrels says none he has seen will do a hundred rounds or so without giving problems.
-------
But really, I posted to talk about mag cap. I assume the rem700 has this too, but Savage has replaceable bottom metal so you can use AI mags. And I'll bet you can get them cheaper than for the 700 :)

I never said that "none I have seen will do 100 rounds without problems."
I said that we see lots of problems.
There are some that work just fine.
The issue is choosing one of those guns when you are buying it.
Like forest gump says; savages are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get...

PTG has AI bottom metal for 700's on sale every month or two for $75.
Normal price is $99.

ar15barrels
09-09-2013, 1:34 PM
how much would it be to bed, blueprint, and true my action?

Bolt action shop prices are on www.700barrels.com

I recommend replacing the bolt with an oversized Ptg bolt at the time of truing.
Figure $125 for the bolt body and handle plus $50 to time and weld a handle for a 2 piece bolt or $200 for a 1 piece bolt which is my recommendation.
Then the receiver truing and pinning a recoil lug if you are going to epoxy bed the action into a stock.
After truing is the time to put on a new barrel.

Exodus343
09-09-2013, 2:03 PM
Bolt action shop prices are on www.700barrels.com

I recommend replacing the bolt with an oversized Ptg bolt at the time of truing.
Figure $125 for the bolt body and handle plus $50 to time and weld a handle for a 2 piece bolt or $200 for a 1 piece bolt which is my recommendation.
Then the receiver truing and pinning a recoil lug if you are going to epoxy bed the action into a stock.
After truing is the time to put on a new barrel.


oversized ptg bolt?
do I get the one piece bolt?

ar15barrels
09-09-2013, 4:17 PM
oversized ptg bolt?
do I get the one piece bolt?

As part of truing a receiver, I open the receiver's bolt bore up to 0.705" with a piloted reamer designed specifically for the job.
That ensures that the receiver bore is round and straight.
Then the threads, receiver face and lugs all get re-cut inline with the receivers bolt bore.
Typical bolts are 0.696" diameter and the receiver is typically 0.703" inside diameter so there is around 0.007" of clearance there.
We go to a 0.702" or 0.703" diameter bolt to tighten up the fit between receiver and bolt.

Standard PTG bolts are two-piece where the bolt handle needs to be welded to the bolt body.
The one-piece bolts have the handle and the bolt body all milled from one piece which is the strongest way to make a bolt.

toby
09-09-2013, 4:59 PM
I don't always shoot rifles, but when I do, I don't shoot Remington.................. Stay open minded my friends....;)

Exodus343
09-09-2013, 5:09 PM
So much work for a remington
What a pita lol

So Randall, either one piece or two piece is fine?

ar15barrels
09-09-2013, 8:01 PM
So Randall, either one piece or two piece is fine?

The one-piece is nicer.

Exodus343
09-09-2013, 8:08 PM
The one-piece is nicer.

got it
damn that's going to cost a lot for the parts and the smithing work

should I just go all out and get a barrel along with that? LOL

ar15barrels
09-09-2013, 8:11 PM
should I just go all out and get a barrel along with that?

There is no point in truing if you are not putting a new barrel on it.
The old barrel will not fit anymore once the threads are opened up as part of truing.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/ge7ugatu.jpg

Army
09-10-2013, 7:24 AM
So, let me get this straight: Remingtons are really good rifles, after you replace the receiver, bolt, bolt handle, stock, and barrel....but Savage's are only good out-of-the-box? :hide: :D

Exodus343
09-10-2013, 7:29 AM
There is no point in truing if you are not putting a new barrel on it.
The old barrel will not fit anymore once the threads are opened up as part of truing.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/ge7ugatu.jpg

ahh ok
so it's a whole process

got it, time to save up

rm1911
09-10-2013, 7:37 AM
So, let me get this straight: Remingtons are really good rifles, after you replace the receiver, bolt, bolt handle, stock, and barrel....but Savage's are only good out-of-the-box? :hide: :D

you can buy a honda accord and you'll have a great car. but it's a honda accord.

or you can buy a 67 mustang and after you spend $10,000 on it, it's a great car. after you spend another $5000 on it. but it's a 67 mustang.

or simply get ya a sub MOA mosin. oops, wrong forum :) :)

ar15barrels
09-10-2013, 9:02 AM
ahh ok
so it's a whole process

You can rebarrel without truing or replacing the bolt and see improvements in accuracy simply by going to a benchrest quality barrel.
The action will still have the same slop in it though amd the bolt will still jump around when you fire it.
It will still FEEL like the same gun.

Truing and fitting a bolt is probably more about having confidence in the gun based on its nicer feel and how it operates that it actually is about mechanical accuracy.
As an example, Savages have a horrible feel, yet they shoot good regardless of it.
In some cases, where the gun actually needed to be trued, several small issues are resolved with the truing work.

Exodus343
09-10-2013, 10:53 AM
Ooh thanks for clarifying that
So accuracy will improve if I just change it to a kreiger or bartlein barrel, not necessary if I true/blueprint it?

ar15barrels
09-10-2013, 5:28 PM
Ooh thanks for clarifying that
So accuracy will improve if I just change it to a kreiger or bartlein barrel, not necessary if I true/blueprint it?

I would break down the mechanical accuracy factors of a rifle to be somewhat like this:
40% chambering/barrel fitting job quality
35% barrel quality
15% bedding
5% action type
5% action truing

Most important is how well the barrel is chambered and fitted to the action.
Next most important is having a top quality barrel blank.
Everything after that is rapidly diminishing in importance.

Exodus343
09-10-2013, 9:58 PM
I would break down the mechanical accuracy factors of a rifle to be somewhat like this:
40% chambering/barrel fitting job quality
35% barrel quality
15% bedding
5% action type
5% action truing

Most important is how well the barrel is chambered and fitted to the action.
Next most important is having a top quality barrel blank.
Everything after that is rapidly diminishing in importance.


so let's say I have a krieger or a bartlein 30 cal barrel

and of course your excellent shop skills ;)

after that I just bed my action to the stock and that will be decently enough?

ar15barrels
09-10-2013, 10:19 PM
so let's say I have a krieger or a bartlein 30 cal barrel

and of course your excellent shop skills ;)

after that I just bed my action to the stock and that will be decently enough?

Pretty much.

Exodus343
09-10-2013, 10:44 PM
Sweet!
I still don't know if I should go bartlein or krieger

Sorry OP did NOT mean to threadjack

ar15barrels
09-10-2013, 10:51 PM
Sweet!
I still don't know if I should go bartlein or krieger

Sorry OP did NOT mean to threadjack

Bartlein.

Wrangler John
09-11-2013, 5:03 AM
There’s enough horse manure in this thread that I searched around for a pony.

The new Remington 700 bare actions sold by Brownell’s do not need truing, unless the shooter is like me and does things out of habit. In the past I sent Remington actions, both the 700 and 40X out for blueprinting but these were 1970’s era actions being rebuilt after several barrel replacements over three decades. The new actions are accurate enough as they come out of the box for most use. My current 700 bare action project was sent out to Greg Tannel (as were the others) for installation of a double pinned recoil lug, bolt raceway bored and bolt double sleeved, firing pin bushed and pin ground, bolt lugs lapped. I did not have the action face trued or the barrel threads single pointed as this was not necessary. There are other smiths that do the same work. It is my considered opinion that a one piece bolt offers no advantage over the OE Remington bolt. At one time Fred Moreo at Sharp Shooter Supply converted Remington bolts to use Savage bolt heads, a floating bolt head has advantages. Those concerned about breaking the Remington’s brazed bolt handle off can order a single or double Torx screw installed to join the handle to the bolt, also from: http://www.gretanrifles.com/

I use Pac-Nor Super Match prefit Remington barrels machined for the Pac-Nor Nut (aka Rem-Nut) which are drop-in using a Savage barrel wrench and barrel vise (for installing the Bergara Remington 700 barrels with their nut, a factory recoil lug jig is needed, or an action wrench). A set of headspace gauges for the specific cartridge is also required. Installing and swapping out barrels on either the Remington or Savage actions takes less than 30 minutes including swallowing coffee and relighting a stogie.
http://www.pac-nor.com/
http://www.pac-nor.com/photo_gallery/pacnut-lg.jpg
http://www.pac-nor.com/photo_gallery/pacnut-clup-lg.jpg
http://www.bergarausa.com/

The Savage action, especially the Precision Target Action, has no disadvantages over any other. One difference between the Savage and Remington actions is that the Savage cocking piece travels down the side of the receiver, while the Remington sear and cocking piece is on the bottom of the bolt axial to the locking lugs. The Remington slightly cocks the top lug off its seat under mainspring pressure. When fired the bolt drops and creates additional vibration, hence we bore the raceway and either install a larger bolt or add “Borden Bumps” via double sleeves to eliminate slop when it is cocked and fired. The Savage bolt head is floating in its body, held in contact with the receiver when fired, while the cocking piece does not drop the bolt upon release. The Savage Precision Action is manufactured with a .062” diameter firing pin and a precision recoil lug. I have found the Savage Target AccuTrigger acceptable for target work out of the box, saving $225 for a Jewel Trigger for the Remington.

The Savage PTA can be switched between cartridge families by swapping in the correct sized bolt head along with the appropriate barrel. I switch between .223, .308, PPC and magnum sized bolt heads in minutes.

The idea that a Savage, built or otherwise, will not withstand long term shooting is poppycock. All my built up Savages, assembled from standard components available from Savage or on the aftermarket, have maintained superb accuracy over hundreds of shots during varmint hunts and never once failed. Should something break, the entire action can be disassembled with a folding Allen Wrench set and maybe a screwdriver. The mainspring unloads as the bolt nut is loosened. I can remove and replace an extractor with nothing more than my thumb, although I have a supply of 100 1/8” ball bearings in my kit should the little bugger fly away. Fortunately no extractor has ever failed.

I use prefit and chambered Savage large shank barrels from Pac-Nor (especially polygonal rifled), Sharp Shooter Supply (Brux Barrels – extremely accurate) and Shilen. The older small barrel shank actions can also use Lothar Walther prefit barrels. http://www.lothar-walther.com/339.php (P.S. They make superb AR-15 barrels too, ready to screw on http://www.lothar-walther.com/473.php) They install easily without any mystery. Anyone with any degree of mechanical aptitude can install barrels.

Coat the barrel and action threads with anti-seize compound.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Barrel1.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Barrel1.jpg.html)

Place the nut wrench over the barrel, screw the nut on, place the recoil lug over the threads, screw on the action, leaving the nut loose.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/IMG_0017edit.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/IMG_0017edit.jpg.html)

Insert the GO headspace gauge into the chamber and close the bolt.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/HSChambered.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/HSChambered.jpg.html)

Hand tighten the action or barrel against the headspace gauge, just remove the slop, do not over tighten. With my big hands I gotta be careful not to twist too hard.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/HandTighten.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/HandTighten.jpg.html)

Torque the nut down, for this Savage action I use 40 ft. lbs., I hold the action from turning with my other hand, not shown here for clarity.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Tighten.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Tighten.jpg.html)

Remove the GO gauge and insert the NO GO gauge. The bolt should not close more than what is seen here.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/NoGO.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/NoGO.jpg.html)

You are done. Install in stock, go shoot, work up load, have fun.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/243WSSM.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/243WSSM.jpg.html)

Kill something small a long way away, feed the hawks, eagles and magpies.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Splat4.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Splat4.jpg.html)

bobgengeskahn
09-11-2013, 6:38 AM
There’s enough horse manure in this thread that I searched around for a pony.

The new Remington 700 bare actions sold by Brownell’s do not need truing, unless the shooter is like me and does things out of habit. In the past I sent Remington actions, both the 700 and 40X out for blueprinting but these were 1970’s era actions being rebuilt after several barrel replacements over three decades. The new actions are accurate enough as they come out of the box for most use. My current 700 bare action project was sent out to Greg Tannel (as were the others) for installation of a double pinned recoil lug, bolt raceway bored and bolt double sleeved, firing pin bushed and pin ground, bolt lugs lapped. I did not have the action face trued or the barrel threads single pointed as this was not necessary. There are other smiths that do the same work. It is my considered opinion that a one piece bolt offers no advantage over the OE Remington bolt. At one time Fred Moreo at Sharp Shooter Supply converted Remington bolts to use Savage bolt heads, a floating bolt head has advantages. Those concerned about breaking the Remington’s brazed bolt handle off can order a single or double Torx screw installed to join the handle to the bolt, also from: http://www.gretanrifles.com/

I use Pac-Nor Super Match prefit Remington barrels machined for the Pac-Nor Nut (aka Rem-Nut) which are drop-in using a Savage barrel wrench and barrel vise (for installing the Bergara Remington 700 barrels with their nut, a factory recoil lug jig is needed, or an action wrench). A set of headspace gauges for the specific cartridge is also required. Installing and swapping out barrels on either the Remington or Savage actions takes less than 30 minutes including swallowing coffee and relighting a stogie.
http://www.pac-nor.com/
http://www.pac-nor.com/photo_gallery/pacnut-lg.jpg
http://www.pac-nor.com/photo_gallery/pacnut-clup-lg.jpg
http://www.bergarausa.com/

The Savage action, especially the Precision Target Action, has no disadvantages over any other. One difference between the Savage and Remington actions is that the Savage cocking piece travels down the side of the receiver, while the Remington sear and cocking piece is on the bottom of the bolt axial to the locking lugs. The Remington slightly cocks the top lug off its seat under mainspring pressure. When fired the bolt drops and creates additional vibration, hence we bore the raceway and either install a larger bolt or add “Borden Bumps” via double sleeves to eliminate slop when it is cocked and fired. The Savage bolt head is floating in its body, held in contact with the receiver when fired, while the cocking piece does not drop the bolt upon release. The Savage Precision Action is manufactured with a .062” diameter firing pin and a precision recoil lug. I have found the Savage Target AccuTrigger acceptable for target work out of the box, saving $225 for a Jewel Trigger for the Remington.

The Savage PTA can be switched between cartridge families by swapping in the correct sized bolt head along with the appropriate barrel. I switch between .223, .308, PPC and magnum sized bolt heads in minutes.

The idea that a Savage, built or otherwise, will not withstand long term shooting is poppycock. All my built up Savages, assembled from standard components available from Savage or on the aftermarket, have maintained superb accuracy over hundreds of shots during varmint hunts and never once failed. Should something break, the entire action can be disassembled with a folding Allen Wrench set and maybe a screwdriver. The mainspring unloads as the bolt nut is loosened. I can remove and replace an extractor with nothing more than my thumb, although I have a supply of 100 1/8” ball bearings in my kit should the little bugger fly away. Fortunately no extractor has ever failed.

I use prefit and chambered Savage large shank barrels from Pac-Nor (especially polygonal rifled), Sharp Shooter Supply (Brux Barrels – extremely accurate) and Shilen. The older small barrel shank actions can also use Lothar Walther prefit barrels. http://www.lothar-walther.com/339.php (P.S. They make superb AR-15 barrels too, ready to screw on http://www.lothar-walther.com/473.php) They install easily without any mystery. Anyone with any degree of mechanical aptitude can install barrels.

Coat the barrel and action threads with anti-seize compound.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Barrel1.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Barrel1.jpg.html)

Place the nut wrench over the barrel, screw the nut on, place the recoil lug over the threads, screw on the action, leaving the nut loose.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/IMG_0017edit.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/IMG_0017edit.jpg.html)

Insert the GO headspace gauge into the chamber and close the bolt.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/HSChambered.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/HSChambered.jpg.html)

Hand tighten the action or barrel against the headspace gauge, just remove the slop, do not over tighten. With my big hands I gotta be careful not to twist too hard.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/HandTighten.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/HandTighten.jpg.html)

Torque the nut down, for this Savage action I use 40 ft. lbs., I hold the action from turning with my other hand, not shown here for clarity.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Tighten.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Tighten.jpg.html)

Remove the GO gauge and insert the NO GO gauge. The bolt should not close more than what is seen here.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/NoGO.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/NoGO.jpg.html)

You are done. Install in stock, go shoot, work up load, have fun.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/243WSSM.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/243WSSM.jpg.html)

Kill something small a long way away, feed the hawks, eagles and magpies.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/Splat4.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/Splat4.jpg.html)

:notworthy:

This is the best/most complete response I have gotten on this question from any forum so far, including Savage Shooters. Thanks! This will definitely give me a lot to consider!

shoebox56
09-11-2013, 6:52 AM
Man, thanks, I can't wait to get a Savage!

norcalgunguy
09-11-2013, 9:43 AM
Tagged

Wrangler John
09-12-2013, 12:38 AM
:notworthy:

This is the best/most complete response I have gotten on this question from any forum so far, including Savage Shooters. Thanks! This will definitely give me a lot to consider!

Glad I could help.

If you decide to give it a try, check out the stocks offered by Sharp Shooter Supply. They are pillar bedded and come ready for a skim coat of epoxy. If you purchase a Savage Dual Port Precision Target Action remember that the action hole spacing is different than the single port models, order accordingly.

The barrel installation details are the same for the Remington 700 with the barrel nut. The Remington 700 Short Action with the .308 Winchester bolt face, which accounts for all my Remington actions, is excellent for any cartridge made on the .308 Win. case.

The internal .308 magazine box fits a variety of cases such as the .22-250 Rem., .243 Win., 6mm Rem, .257 Roberts (and the Ackley Improved - I have one), .260 Remington, 7mm-08 Remington and the .308 Winchester. Doubtless there are others that will work. My project rifle has two barrels, one in .22-250 Remington, and one in .22-250 Ackley Improved. Both cartridges work through the internal magazine and feed flawlessly.

Last week, while waiting for a new .308 Win. barrel, I added Wyatt M4 bottom metal that accepts 5 and 10 round detachable magazines for the .308 Winchester. Surprisingly the .22-250 Ackley cartridges feed perfectly through the same magazine, so doubtless the standard .22-250 Remington will also work. That may mean I could have a swap barrel Remington 700 in several calibers that use the same detachable magazines. The Wyatt trigger guard and magazines fit the Bell & Carlson M4 Medalist stocks and HS Precision stocks with the aluminum chassis without any fitting, they are completely drop-in.

Have a second bolt with the .223 face fitted to the action, and you can swap between the .204 Ruger, .223 Remington and many various wildcats based on that case size. The possibilities are endless.

This rifle building bug is incurable once infected. I never got that Erector Set I wanted when I was a kid, so this more than makes up for it.

bloodhawke83
09-12-2013, 8:09 AM
Thread just got better, thx for the info.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4