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michael88
09-05-2013, 9:26 PM
So I spoke with on target today and this is what they said which furthered what I read on the doj website. I just want to make sure I am not missing or misunderstanding anything.

I plan to have my mother, who is from texas, fly in with an hk45. At that point I will only need 19 dollars and to fill out the correct doj form correct? And it's totally legal?

FCinCA
09-05-2013, 9:57 PM
Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly. Your mom lives out of state and is coming to see you. She currently legally owns an HK45 which is not on the CA Roster and she wants to give it to you as a gift.

She can legally bring the weapon here and gift it to you and in turn you will need to complete an intafamilial transfer form from the DOJ. $19 is what they charge for the registration. You need to have a Handgun Safety Cert or a Permit to Carry prior to registration.

That's what I believe and I'm not an attorney.

michael88
09-05-2013, 10:05 PM
That about sums it up. I was just making sure I read everything and understood it correctly.

Tincon
09-05-2013, 10:10 PM
Sounds correct to me. Make sure you submit the form within 5 days from the transfer.

Librarian
09-05-2013, 10:42 PM
Nope.

Because it's an interstate handgun transfer (TX-mom to CA-son), Federal law requires the transfer occurs at an FFL in the state of residence of the receiver.

Must do the fee, the 10-day wait, have the HSC - and the DROS info covers the same 'registration' requirement that the OPLAW form would, so need not do that. Still a Roster-exempt transfer.

Call ahead to your local FFL to arrange the transfer.

Tincon
09-06-2013, 12:43 AM
Because it's an interstate handgun transfer (TX-mom to CA-son), Federal law requires the transfer occurs at an FFL in the state of residence of the receiver.

That's true if she is just visiting. Of course if she is present in the state and has "an intention of making a home" here, however temporarily, then she is a resident (which is how I read the OP for some reason, but looking at subsequent posts that may not be the case) and the interfamilial transfer form may be used. Librarian raises a good point though.

brianm767
09-06-2013, 3:01 PM
Being the gift is coming from your mother, it is roster exempt, but as Librarian has stated, Federal law requires it to go through a FFL in the receiver’s state.

State law does not care, so a uniformed CA DOJ worker may tell you that you only need to complete the OPLAW form and pay the $19, this has been told to many people by the DOJ and that is incorrect because it violates federal law.

Your mother can bring the gun in the state and go to a FFL with you to complete a dealer transfer, or she can mail the firearm to a Knowledgeable Ca FFL from her home state to complete the same transfer, and as mentioned, you have to find the right FFL who is familiar with the process, many Cali FFL's will also just tell you to complete the OPLAW form or they will tell you it can’t be done because the gun has to be on the roster, both are incorrect.

Mitch
09-06-2013, 3:25 PM
Earlier this year my father, who lived in Oregon, drove down here to give me two rifles and a handgun. This "gift" cost me about $200 plus the ten day wait.

Last week my father moved back to California. He gave me his last two revolvers. This "gift" only cost me $19 for the Operation of Law form and a stamp. I have the revolvers right here on my desk. They are beauties.

We didn't know my parents were moving back to California when I accepted the two rifles and pistol.

Malthusian
09-06-2013, 3:39 PM
Curious if an FFL will chime in

The DROS system does not accept out of state drivers licenses

Several threads have been posted about the adventures of out of state family members trying to DROS a firearm; the FFL chases them away unable to complete the transaction

Yes it is legal and within the law, but the software is not accommodating to this type of transaction

Mitch
09-06-2013, 4:12 PM
Several threads have been posted about the adventures of out of state family members trying to DROS a firearm; the FFL chases them away unable to complete the transaction

The purchaser is a resident.

Not sure what the system does with the seller's ID, but my in-person interstate transfer went just fine.

mej16489
09-07-2013, 9:13 AM
Curious if an FFL will chime in

The DROS system does not accept out of state drivers licenses

Several threads have been posted about the adventures of out of state family members trying to DROS a firearm; the FFL chases them away unable to complete the transaction

Yes it is legal and within the law, but the software is not accommodating to this type of transaction

The out-of-state resident's id is irrelevant to the interstate-intrafamilial transfer. The dealer 'accepts' the delivery of the firearm from the nonresident - i.e. 'logs it in' Then the dealer starts DROS on the resident family member.

Duranimal
09-07-2013, 4:30 PM
As i understand it. To do this it would be an in person ffl transfer the mother brings the gun to the ffl essentially delivering it as a giftto her son who then competes th dros process as usual.

bigevil
09-08-2013, 9:59 AM
So let me get this straight. regardless of on/off roster status. If my mom buys a few guns in Maryland(where she is a resident and lives) that aren't on the roster here. She can transfer them to me and all I need to do is have the transferred done via a FFL in CA and I've legally and lawfully acquired those off roster handguns for ownership in CA?

Tincon
09-08-2013, 10:14 AM
So let me get this straight. regardless of on/off roster status. If my mom buys a few guns in Maryland(where she is a resident and lives) that aren't on the roster here. She can transfer them to me and all I need to do is have the transferred done via a FFL in CA and I've legally and lawfully acquired those off roster handguns for ownership in CA?

Mom must also be a resident of this state at the time of the transfer, which is not particularly difficult to establish. Per the ATF: The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State.

ke6guj
09-08-2013, 10:46 AM
So let me get this straight. regardless of on/off roster status. If my mom buys a few guns in Maryland(where she is a resident and lives) that aren't on the roster here. She can transfer them to me and all I need to do is have the transferred done via a FFL in CA and I've legally and lawfully acquired those off roster handguns for ownership in CA?
yes.

ke6guj
09-08-2013, 10:47 AM
Mom must also be a resident of this state at the time of the transfer, which is not particularly difficult to establish. Per the ATF: The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State.
she doesn't need to be a CA resident to do the transfer bigevil described.

bigevil
09-09-2013, 7:50 AM
hmmm. two different answers. now I'm more confused!

Anyone else have information they can help with?
I appreciate it greatly.

Librarian
09-09-2013, 2:40 PM
hmmm. two different answers. now I'm more confused!

Anyone else have information they can help with?
I appreciate it greatly.

An out-of California relative of the correct relationship - parent, child, grandparent, grandchild - may legally give an off-roster, non 'assault weapon' handgun to the CA-resident. That is quite distinct from selling it to that CA resident, or taking the CA resident's money and buying on his/her behalf. [ETA - with the law as it is on Sept 9, 2013.]

Such a gift may be sent to, or brought to, a CA FFL, and the transfer may legally occur after all the CA FFL-things are accomplished; it would be an interstate intrafamilial transfer, involving both Federal law (for using an FFL for the transfer) and California law (for intrafamily transfer being exempt from the Roster, and following CA rules imposed on CA FFLs and CA handgun buyers/transferees).

See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on

Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

strongpoint
09-09-2013, 2:44 PM
So let me get this straight. regardless of on/off roster status. If my mom buys a few guns in Maryland(where she is a resident and lives) that aren't on the roster here. She can transfer them to me and all I need to do is have the transferred done via a FFL in CA and I've legally and lawfully acquired those off roster handguns for ownership in CA?

if you want to stay legal, don't ask your mom to purchase guns on your behalf (or anyone else's). not that you were suggesting such; maybe your mom already owns firearms she wants to give or sell you. just an FYI.

bigevil
09-24-2013, 8:14 AM
Where do you gents think the best place to find conclusive answers on the legality of this would be. I'm going to be back in Maryland shortly and would love to see what kind of guns she could pick out for her collection.

Tincon
09-24-2013, 8:50 AM
she doesn't need to be a CA resident to do the transfer bigevil described.

That's correct. I missed the FFL part. Good luck getting an FFL to do the transfer without both parties having a CA ID though.

Librarian
09-24-2013, 9:26 AM
Where do you gents think the best place to find conclusive answers on the legality of this would be. I'm going to be back in Maryland shortly and would love to see what kind of guns she could pick out for her collection.

In post 18.

So long as the handguns are gifts - you did not contribute a penny, nor will you in the future - and they are delivered to you by a CA FFL without you taking possession before that (you cannot bring them from MD), you will have followed both CA and Federal law.

Make arrangements with your local CA FFL before shipping to the shop, or before Mom coming in to do the transfer if she will come to CA with the gun(s). Remember 1-in-30 still applies, so if Mom is generous enough to give you more than one, the CA FFL will have to store any others until you can legally submit another DROS.

bwiese
09-24-2013, 12:41 PM
You have your answer already.
I don't know how you can want more.

1. Mom comes in with handguns that are not Rostered, but are otherwise CA legal.

2. She needs to leave the hicap mags at home. (10rd mags may be needed
for safety function demo.)

3. She and you execute a transfer at the CA FFL. The CA FFL overrides the Roster requirement
by noting "intrafamily xfer". Perhaps Mom writes you a gift letter, "I want Junior to have this
nice S&W stainless 4" bbl revolver S/N 12345 and this Colt 1911 blued, 5" bbl pistol S/N 78901.
Signed, Mom" of which the FFL keeps a copy in file as 'backup' to show reason for Roster override.

4. Note that since this is not a PPT between CA residents, the FFL can charge whatever he wants
for xfer fees (instead of PPT $35 fee).

5. I worry if you give $$$ to her - instead of these guns being truly gifted to you - that your Mom
could get into legal heat on 4473 misrepresentation on "Are you the actual buyer of this gun?"
question - because ATF could see this as flipping and not gifting; look what happened to the Sacto
cops who were flipping guns - investigation is tracking money flows including checking accts, ATM
withdrawals in certain time frames, etc.

6. If you have a C&R + CA COE then you are exempt from 1-new-handgun-in-30 days requirement.

There's your answer.

bwiese
09-24-2013, 12:47 PM
That's correct. I missed the FFL part. Good luck getting an FFL to do the transfer without both parties having a CA ID though.

There are quite a few FFLs in CA that will do an 'interstate intrafamily' transfer of non-Rostered handguns.

Yes your average 'huntin'n'fishin' FFL selling wood guns probably won't get it.

Some people ***** at them also because the $35 state PPT limit on fees doesn't apply in these instances.

This can even be done via shipped gun and the out of state lineal relative does not even have to be present;
a gift letter and copy of family member's ID will keep the FFL happy and his records square.

Tincon
09-24-2013, 12:53 PM
Is there any legal reason why it would not be a PPT with the $35 fee limit? I haven't looked at this in while but I remember thinking it was more underground regulation than law. Also, I wonder if the FFL will try to charge taxes, especially with a shipped gun.

bwiese
09-24-2013, 1:01 PM
Is there any legal reason why it would not be a PPT with the $35 fee limit? I haven't looked at this in while but I remember thinking it was more underground regulation than law. Also, I wonder if the FFL will try to charge taxes, especially with a shipped gun.


Agreed that DOJ's restrictions on PPTs are really underground regulation (watch Ed Worley steam when you talk to him about this) - but for practical sake "This way works".

Probably taxable except I have less concerns over those trivia than "just getting the handgun in a person wants".

Librarian
09-24-2013, 3:43 PM
Is there any legal reason why it would not be a PPT with the $35 fee limit? I haven't looked at this in while but I remember thinking it was more underground regulation than law. Also, I wonder if the FFL will try to charge taxes, especially with a shipped gun.

Agreed that DOJ's restrictions on PPTs are really underground regulation (watch Ed Worley steam when you talk to him about this) - but for practical sake "This way works".

Probably taxable except I have less concerns over those trivia than "just getting the handgun in a person wants".

Agreed - the real obstacle is that the DROS software will accept only CA id for participants in PPT. Can't find the justification for that limitation.

Mitch
09-25-2013, 7:09 AM
That's correct. I missed the FFL part. Good luck getting an FFL to do the transfer without both parties having a CA ID though.

RifleGear in Fountain Valley will oblige.

Tincon
09-25-2013, 10:16 AM
RifleGear in Fountain Valley will oblige.

As PPT?

Mitch
09-26-2013, 1:23 PM
As PPT?

No, as an interstate intrafamilial transfer where the transferer happens to be present. That is precisely what is being discussed here. You can't do a PPT with a resident of another state.

I guess the real question is does your local FFL understand the difference? I wouldn't be surprised if many didn't.

RifleGear have a reputation around here of having their heads screwed on right, with regard to legal niceties.

Tincon
09-26-2013, 2:11 PM
RifleGear have a reputation around here of having their heads screwed on right, with regard to legal niceties.

You can't do a PPT with a resident of another state.


Ok then, legally, why not?

Mitch
09-26-2013, 2:28 PM
Ok then, legally, why not?

I don't know what's in the statute, but as others have already pointed out, the DROS system doesn't allow it.

That's a practical prohibition that the OP isn't going to reverse any time soon.

Tincon
09-26-2013, 2:32 PM
I don't know what's in the statute, but as others have already pointed out, the DROS system doesn't allow it.

That's a practical prohibition that the OP isn't going to reverse any time soon.

Isn't there some way around the DROS system that they set up for gunshow transactions?

Librarian
10-02-2013, 12:59 PM
Tincon, and Mitch in reply: a higher level of generality, please.