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jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 7:50 PM
So here's the story. I am a U.S. citizen but not a California resident. For that matter Im not a resident of any U.S. state. I understand that without California state I.D. I cannot purchase a firearm here but if I were to drive to Nevada or Arazona and buy a gun would I be able to keep it here? I would be getting a california legal weapon and I dont want it to be too big of a hassle. I just want to figure out a way to go to the range without renting every time. Any help would be great and if you have sources to laws even better! Feel free to ask questions if it helps! thanks!

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 8:05 PM
I'd also like to know where is the best place and how is the best way to purchase my gun (if I can). I would be using my passport as I.D. and I assume cash would work best? Will every state ask where my residency is?

leman77
09-04-2013, 8:08 PM
Are you a resident of Guam, US Virgin Islands, or Puerto Rico or something? I'm confused how you are not a resident of any US state. Please clarify so we can help ya out. Thanks.

Ninety
09-04-2013, 8:09 PM
I wanted to ask this question in another thread but seeing it fits here ..

Why must one be a resident of a specific state to purchase a firearm? What about people who are nomads? Gypsies and the like? A person who has no home or permanent address. Lives out of car or motorhome.

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 8:15 PM
Im a Canadian resident with dual citizenship. Even though I spend the majority of my time in California (for school) I've never been here long enough to gain legal residency. I've tried to buy guns in Montana before but they wont sell to a Canadian resident even though I could conceivably import most guns legally (which I might try to do with this one after school). I wanna try and stay away from the whole "hey Im a Canadian thing" when buying though, seems to cause more problems.

Intimid8tor
09-04-2013, 8:25 PM
Residency is where it's at. It doesn't take long to establish a residence in California or most states. You won't be able to buy in other states either, since you are not a resident of that state.

fizux
09-04-2013, 8:31 PM
SAF sued on that issue; it's not in the urgent tier of my list of cases to update here, but it is on the list to do eventually.

Dearth v. Holder
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/30/idUS193632+30-Mar-2009+BW20090330

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 8:32 PM
So its up to each individual state then? I know some states allow unregulated private sales (you can give a friend cash and he can give you a gun) I bought back my dads old .22 in Montana that way. Do you know if that would fly in nevada or arizona? I know you cant here but I could always go to a gun show or find something in the classifieds there and bring it back.

Librarian
09-04-2013, 8:33 PM
I wanted to ask this question in another thread but seeing it fits here ..

Why must one be a resident of a specific state to purchase a firearm? What about people who are nomads? Gypsies and the like? A person who has no home or permanent address. Lives out of car or motorhome.

There is in fact a lawsuit on point - Dearth v. Holder (was Hodgkins v. Holder), 06-25-2013 - Orals have been scheduled for Sept. 19, 2013. It's in the DC Circuit Court of Appeals - see http://dockets.justia.com/docket/circuit-courts/cadc/12-5305/

Residence is an artifact of the 1968 Gun Control Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968).

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 8:34 PM
hold up... So if they're suing Holder that means it federal law? Does that include private sales??

Intimid8tor
09-04-2013, 8:38 PM
So its up to each individual state then? I know some states allow unregulated private sales (you can give a friend cash and he can give you a gun) I bought back my dads old .22 in Montana that way. Do you know if that would fly in nevada or arizona? I know you cant here but I could always go to a gun show or find something in the classifieds there and bring it back.

In most states, private party sales are between two state RESIDENTS only.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-04-2013, 8:39 PM
hold up... So if they're suing Holder that means it federal law? Does that include private sales??

Private transfers without using an FFL are only legal if both parties to the transfer are residents of the same State.

POLICESTATE
09-04-2013, 8:43 PM
Don't establish residency here if you can avoid it, you'll get hit with income taxes. Residency in Washington state would be much better :D

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 8:45 PM
Do you require proof of residency to own the gun or just to purchase it?

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 8:47 PM
@POLICESTATE thats exactly what Im trying to avoid hahaha the whole tax situation would get ugly.

shooter41022
09-04-2013, 8:49 PM
would the only way for him getting a firearm to buy a rifle older than 50 years from a third party?

bohoki
09-04-2013, 8:50 PM
you can own a gun there are a certain batch that are illegal but they are listed by name or inherent features

i too have asked this question

also if you are not a resident is there some type of drivers licence you could use? international driving permit?

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 9:04 PM
So I can buy a 50 year+ in a private sale? But yeas, there is some California I.D. I can get but I'd rather stay away from it as it would cause a whole new set of legal problems. I just use my Canadian license when Im driving.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-04-2013, 10:11 PM
So I can buy a 50 year+ in a private sale? But yeas, there is some California I.D. I can get but I'd rather stay away from it as it would cause a whole new set of legal problems. I just use my Canadian license when Im driving.

Because you spend the majority of your time in California and go to school here I would think the Feds would consider you a California resident for purposes of the 1968 Gun Control Act. If so, then you could buy from another private California resident as long as you follow California law. Until the end of this year California law exempts 50+ year old C&R long guns from California's dealer transfer requirements.

You might have a hard time finding a California resident willing to sell to you without a California ID though.

jlrmalcolm
09-04-2013, 11:09 PM
fantastic! Im totally fine with just getting an old mosin nagant anyway :) fits my college student budget too. Now that I know I can legally buy will I have any problems possessing it here?

Daveca
09-04-2013, 11:13 PM
Private transfers without using an FFL are only legal if both parties to the transfer are residents of the same State.

I'm not sure that the law in Az. requires both parties to be residents of the state. The person to person sales require no presentation of any ID of any kind. It is a no questions asked type of transaction. That is what the gov't is trying to stop with the expanded background checks. They want to include all sales, not just those going through a FFL.

Daveca
09-04-2013, 11:19 PM
That is also why the Feds set up the straw sales in AZ., which later led to the Fast and Furious scandal. Private sellers and buyers bought and sold with no questions asked. The problem came when the DOJ lost track of the weapons that they were supposed to be tracking.

Daveca
09-04-2013, 11:30 PM
The gov't did the operation in AZ because the no questions asked transactions didn't arouse any suspicion. The private person to person sales w/out any ID, etc didn't get anyone's attention. It was just business as usual at the guns shows, nothing unusual, it was just the norm. Plus, it was on the border to Mexico, which of course is where they expected some of the weapons to go. The entire operation was designed to show how many of the weapons later showed up at crime scenes. This was an effort to support the legislation to mandate background checks on all weapons, i.e.-for tracking purposes.

Intimid8tor
09-04-2013, 11:32 PM
I'm not sure that the law in Az. requires both parties to be residents of the state. The person to person sales require no presentation of any ID of any kind. It is a no questions asked type of transaction. That is what the gov't is trying to stop with the expanded background checks. They want to include all sales, not just those going through a FFL.

It is between residents, but there is no requirement of showing proof between the buyer and seller.

Daveca
09-04-2013, 11:41 PM
I'd be careful buying from someone with no exchange of ID, etc.. You could easily get a weapon used in all kinds of crimes, etc. In fact, I just wouldn't buy from a stranger like that.

Librarian
09-05-2013, 12:36 AM
I'm not sure that the law in Az. requires both parties to be residents of the state. The person to person sales require no presentation of any ID of any kind. It is a no questions asked type of transaction. That is what the gov't is trying to stop with the expanded background checks. They want to include all sales, not just those going through a FFL.

Federal law requires it - see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=503873

dominic
09-05-2013, 2:18 AM
Buy in Alaska, some FFL's there are licensed in both countries for non-restricted firearms. All handguns and repeating rifles are restricted firearms in Canada and are prohibited from transfer, but you may be able to find out more if you call an Alaskan FFL.

edgerly779
09-05-2013, 2:28 AM
Without ca id and/or ca proof of residency you cannot buy any firearm in ca even a c&r. Unless you get a c&r license. No private party without ffl for firearms newer than 50 years old.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-05-2013, 6:02 AM
Without ca id and/or ca proof of residency you cannot buy any firearm in ca even a c&r.

You don't need a California ID or proof of residency to legally buy a 50+ year old C&R long gun from another private party in California. Both parties to the transaction just need to be considered California residents under federal law.

fiddletown
09-05-2013, 7:36 AM
Im a Canadian resident with dual citizenship. Even though I spend the majority of my time in California (for school) I've never been here long enough to gain legal residency. I've tried to buy guns in Montana before but they wont sell to a Canadian resident even though I could conceivably import most guns legally (which I might try to do with this one after school). I wanna try and stay away from the whole "hey Im a Canadian thing" when buying though, seems to cause more problems.For the purposes of federal law relating to the the transfer of firearms, you are most likely a resident of California.

Under federal law, "State of residence" is defined as follows (27 CFR 478.11):State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.

A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.

A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3.

A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.

This means that under federal law you generally you may not buy a firearm in any State other than California (or one transferred to you in California by a California FFL).

naeco81
09-05-2013, 9:38 AM
I believe what fiddletown posted is accurate in your case OP. Also, you should note that per the California State Franchise Tax Board you are a resident if you draw income in California and thus owe CA taxes on both your Canadian and Californian income while you are physically in California. Yes, you get taxed twice; California residents are taxed on their world-wide income while in the state. When you are visiting back home in Canada you will owe CA taxes on the income derived from California alone.

You really need to consult with a CPA to navigate the perils of dual citizenship. It is not always the convenience people make it out to be. Also, NEVER liquidate any Canadian investment assets while you are physically in CA or you will be taxed on it twice (by Canada and California).

disabledprepper87
09-05-2013, 11:14 AM
I would say you are legal to buy a C&R rifle by what has been put in the post. If your gonna go with a Nagant go with the carbine my man, and enjoy the fireball.
Can you have something like a Garand or because it is semi auto it is regulated in Canada? There are lots of great C&R's you can get on a budget just don't blow it all on some Spanish Mauser or something like that. Like I said the carbine is the best bang and flame for your buck. And the ammo is very affordable! Have fun and be safe if you do go through with the sale.

disabledprepper87
09-05-2013, 11:16 AM
P.S. Have fun being taxed into oblivion like the rest of us. Its seriously soooooooo much fun! NOT!

jlrmalcolm
09-05-2013, 12:20 PM
Thanks for all the info guys! I'll look into all of this stuff more closely then decide which path would work best. I want to avoid the tax nightmare and still be able to go shooting so I'll see what works. As for the question of Canadian legality and importation: As long as the semi-auto rifle is over a certain length (15.5 inch barrel I think) and has a 5 round mag cap then its considered non-restricted. I got a norinco M-14 for $400 and all I needed was my non-restricted license. In many ways Canadian laws are a lot more laid back then California laws but they're pretty similar. I think I'd get a bolt gun here anyway, not a huge fan of your removable magazine laws :P we can essentially have anything when it comes to bolt guns (except .50's and 20mm are considered restricted).

dustoff31
09-05-2013, 1:43 PM
That is also why the Feds set up the straw sales in AZ., which later led to the Fast and Furious scandal. Private sellers and buyers bought and sold with no questions asked. The problem came when the DOJ lost track of the weapons that they were supposed to be tracking.

Actually, the overwhelming majority of the firearms purchased in F&F came from FFLs, using straw buyers and not via private party sales.

raycm2
09-05-2013, 2:25 PM
Daveca,
The gov chose Arizona for Fast & Furious because it was there. AFAIK all F&F transfers went through FFLs despite their objections (ATFE told them to transfer anyway).

raycm2
09-05-2013, 2:27 PM
Well.. that will teach me to not post after a lengthy pause. Sorry, dustoff31, didn't refresh before posting.

bohoki
09-05-2013, 3:46 PM
can you bring a gun into the usa from canada? which is stricter bringing a gun to canada or to the usa

mrdd
09-06-2013, 12:49 AM
Im a Canadian resident with dual citizenship. Even though I spend the majority of my time in California (for school) I've never been here long enough to gain legal residency. I've tried to buy guns in Montana before but they wont sell to a Canadian resident even though I could conceivably import most guns legally (which I might try to do with this one after school). I wanna try and stay away from the whole "hey Im a Canadian thing" when buying though, seems to cause more problems.

Since you are not a resident of any other state, but a U.S. Citizen, I can think of no good reason why you would not be considered a California resident since you spend the majority of your time here.

Since you are a U.S. Citizen, there is no issue of being an alien person.

dominic
09-06-2013, 10:59 AM
can you bring a gun into the usa from canada? which is stricter bringing a gun to canada or to the usa

Canada is stricter. Just traveling to or from Alaska with a firearm you have to have a gun lock installed by the Canadian authorities, then they'll take it off when you reach the US border. They don't even ask at the Alaska state line just wave you on through.

jlrmalcolm
09-07-2013, 12:39 AM
I could bring a gun from canada but theres lots of restrictions. You have to get a signed letter from a dealer or gun show stating why you're bringing it but you can only keep it for a certain amount of time. If you bring it for hunting then you open up a whole new can of worms.

Compared to what Canada does its not that bad though, like dominic said you have to have a gun lock on it all the time if you bring it into canada. If you want to hunt you're looking at thousands for white tail even so its not worth it. When my Dad brought his remington 600 to Canada in the 80's they didnt even care though, no paper work no questions just let him drive it in. wish it were so simple now.

edgerly779
09-07-2013, 4:58 AM
Without a ca id or d/l how do they prove they are a ca resident?

blazeaglory
09-08-2013, 10:58 AM
Im all for a person having to be a resident of a certain state to buy a gun in that state.

If we left it all up to the fed, we wouldnt have the different states gun laws. Ie, some states being more relaxed than others?

If we left it up to the fed, wouldnt there be a bigger chance of gun rights disappearing? Wouldnt it also make it easier for the argument of universal background checks?

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mud99
09-08-2013, 11:49 AM
Canada is stricter. Just traveling to or from Alaska with a firearm you have to have a gun lock installed by the Canadian authorities, then they'll take it off when you reach the US border. They don't even ask at the Alaska state line just wave you on through.

I'm confused, when I drove into Canada a few years back, the only border check was once you got into the other country.

So you drive into Canada, and they lock your firearm, and then you leave Canada and get to the border crossing in Alaska, and the US unlocks it?

Doesn't compute.

todd2968
09-08-2013, 1:15 PM
I guess if your not a resident then.... How do you or Do you have a drivers license? Do you vote? Do you work? Pay taxes? Get mail delivered ?

Mssr. Eleganté
09-08-2013, 1:21 PM
Im all for a person having to be a resident of a certain state to buy a gun in that state.

If we left it all up to the fed, we wouldnt have the different states gun laws. Ie, some states being more relaxed than others?

If we left it up to the fed, wouldnt there be a bigger chance of gun rights disappearing? Wouldnt it also make it easier for the argument of universal background checks?

The 1968 federal law requiring that you be a resident of a State in order to purchase a firearm in that State was a major blow to firearms rights in this country. I don't understand how you could be all for it. I don't understand how you could think a restrictive federal law is an important protection against more restrictive federal laws. :confused:

blazeaglory
09-08-2013, 5:04 PM
The 1968 federal law requiring that you be a resident of a State in order to purchase a firearm in that State was a major blow to firearms rights in this country. I don't understand how you could be all for it. I don't understand how you could think a restrictive federal law is an important protection against more restrictive federal laws. :confused:


Wouldnt that be ammo for the universal background argument? If anyone could go to any state and buy a gun, wouldnt that create more support for universal background checks? And would it not erode states that already have relaxed gun laws?Im am asking, not making a statement.

And how was it a major blow to firearm rights in this country? How often do you travel to other states to buy a gun? If you see something you like on vacation, have the FFL ship it to an FFL in the state you live in. Either way, with enough research, you can get pretty much whatever you want online.

I really dont see the problem, other than the occasional gun buying "nomad" and the fact that we dont need restrictive gun laws, what is the harm of having to be a resident of the state you are buying a gun?

jlrmalcolm
09-08-2013, 5:42 PM
I cant vote (at least I couldn't last election) because I didn't have a fixed address. I have an apartment now so I think if I really wanted to I could get legal residency. For the sake of buying a gun though I feel like I could get away with just using my passport and brining in some government issued mail to my address or something. Not sure what exactly makes me a resident for that purpose. I think I'll just head to the gun store and test my limits hahah, if I leave with a gun then Im a resident. If not then I guess I'll have to jump through some hoops.

and as for the whole Canada gun lock thing. Once you get to the boarder crossing theres usually a parking lot near by. Simply go past customs, park and walk inside. You can then speak to Canadian officials who can take your lock off for you.

mrdd
09-08-2013, 6:26 PM
I cant vote (at least I couldn't last election) because I didn't have a fixed address. I have an apartment now so I think if I really wanted to I could get legal residency. For the sake of buying a gun though I feel like I could get away with just using my passport and brining in some government issued mail to my address or something. Not sure what exactly makes me a resident for that purpose. I think I'll just head to the gun store and test my limits hahah, if I leave with a gun then Im a resident. If not then I guess I'll have to jump through some hoops.

and as for the whole Canada gun lock thing. Once you get to the boarder crossing theres usually a parking lot near by. Simply go past customs, park and walk inside. You can then speak to Canadian officials who can take your lock off for you.

If you have an apartment, you are a California resident since you are a U.S. citizen and do not reside in any other state. I suspect you are on thin ice driving in California with your Canadian license.

CVC 12502. (a) The following persons may operate a motor vehicle in this state without obtaining a driver’s license under this code:

(1) A nonresident over the age of 18 years having in his or her immediate possession a valid driver’s license issued by a foreign jurisdiction of which he or she is a resident, except as provided in Section 12505.

CVC 12505. (a) (1) For purposes of this division only and notwithstanding Section 516, residency shall be determined as a person’s state of domicile. “State of domicile” means the state where a person has his or her true, fixed, and permanent home and principal residence and to which he or she has manifested the intention of returning whenever he or she is absent.

Prima facie evidence of residency for driver’s licensing purposes includes, but is not limited to, the following:

(A) Address where registered to vote.

(B) Payment of resident tuition at a public institution of higher education.

(C) Filing a homeowner’s property tax exemption.

(D) Other acts, occurrences, or events that indicate presence in the state is more than temporary or transient.

(2) California residency is required of a person in order to be issued a commercial driver’s license under this code.

(b) The presumption of residency in this state may be rebutted by satisfactory evidence that the licensee’s primary residence is in another state.

(c) Any person entitled to an exemption under Section 12502, 12503, or 12504 may operate a motor vehicle in this state for not to exceed 10 days from the date he or she establishes residence in this state, except that he or she shall obtain a license from the department upon becoming a resident before being employed for compensation by another for the purpose of driving a motor vehicle on the highways.

I conclude that your "state of domicile" for driver licensing purposes is California since you are a U.S. citizen present in the U.S. and do not reside in another state.