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rksimple
01-09-2008, 7:04 PM
I've been looking at the S&B 5-25x56 PMII for my R+D .308. Street price on this scope is around $2700. I don't really intend to use it at full magnification, but more in the 10-18x range. I decided to go with this one because the others (4-16 and 3-12) are so close in price, that it didn't really make sense to go with one of the lesser magnification models, other than saving a couple ounces. Well, I can get the 3-12 MTC, the same day scope the USMC is using now, for $2100. The price difference, and the gen II reticle, now have me contemplating the 3-12 for that rifle.

Will I miss the extra magnification? If someones going to spend over $2k on a scope, is $600 really a lot? Is the extra magnification worth the extra $600? I feel bad even posting this, revealing my indecisiveness.:( But I really can't make up my mind. I have a bad feeling that if I jump on this, I may always regret it and secretly lust after the 5-25x56.

Someone talk some sense into me.

series 70 colt
01-09-2008, 7:08 PM
i say get the 5-25...i have a 5.5-22 NF on my R+D rifle and it never gets turned down from 22x

five.five-six
01-09-2008, 7:11 PM
IMO, high magnification is a PITA, target aquisition is a lot harder cranked up

rksimple
01-09-2008, 7:14 PM
i say get the 5-25...i have a 5.5-22 NF on my R+D rifle and it never gets turned down from 22x

I've though about that, and for most range work, the magnification would be up there...20x or above. But for matches, 10-12x is usually where I like it. This is especially true when having multiple targets and transitioning between them requires a lower magnification to even find the next target. Even still, the 5-25 is the more versatile scope. $600 more versatile...probably...maybe...wait...???

Prc329
01-09-2008, 7:23 PM
i'd say go with the 3-12. My 4-14 seems perfect. I usually stay around 10X but will hit 14 from time to time just to see the groups on the steel. It has been good to me at all the ranges I have shot it.

rksimple
01-09-2008, 7:33 PM
i'd say go with the 3-12. My 4-14 seems perfect. I usually stay around 10X but will hit 14 from time to time just to see the groups on the steel. It has been good to me at all the ranges I have shot it.

And this plays into my deliberation as well. Most of the time, at extended distances, I shoot steel...not .5 MOA paper. I've gotten by with my 10x for quite a while out to 1K. Decisions!

proraptor
01-09-2008, 7:41 PM
You are already spending the money....Id say go for the 5-25

Cypriss32
01-09-2008, 8:14 PM
3-12x would be nice,
BUT................

4-16x 50mm Gen2 XLR, Double turn, lit ret would be perfict if they have any left. THe 5-25 would be nice to shoot itty bitty groups with. But your used to 10x. The 3-12x would be fine, IMHO!

Mute
01-09-2008, 8:23 PM
Unless you need to shoot paper and really tiny groups, you're not going to miss the high magnification. I say the 4-16x would be just fine otherwise. 12x is ok, but the extra bit does help.

rksimple
01-09-2008, 8:29 PM
3-12x would be nice,
BUT................

4-16x 50mm Gen2 XLR, Double turn, lit ret would be perfict if they have any left. THe 5-25 would be nice to shoot itty bitty groups with. But your used to 10x. The 3-12x would be fine, IMHO!

Well, the 4-16 doesn't come in DT with mil turrets, so I'm stuck there. Plus, there's no 4-16s left. They had a couple 5-25's but they went in a few minutes.

The only downside I see to the 3-12 is in stages involving small targets on paper. There was one stage where we had to shoot at shapes on a paper. With the 10x, I could barely make them out. I think the relatively poor resolution (in comparison to the S&B) would be partially to blame. Another stage involved facial recognition on paper targets and again, my 3200 10x was lacking. I think with glass quality on the S&B and 12x, I wouldn't have an issue.

The 3-12 8541 scopes are a once in a lifetime buy...at least thats what PR says. Maybe I ought to get one for that reason alone...

Vu 308
01-09-2008, 8:36 PM
rksimple,

Go big or go home man. 5-25X gets my vote.

Since its a FFP scope you don't have to use 25X to range or hold since the reticle will stay true to mil no matter what power setting you are on.

The 3-12X USMC scope is perfect for what they (military snipers) are using it for...soft 5.5 to 6 foot targets :43: and they not too worried about punching out the X ring on those targets.

In our game we sometime have to shoot MOA size targets at distance so higher magnification is handy. Can you see a 6" plate at 600 yards on 12X? Of Course you can...but having a 25X scope on a day that conditions allow for you to crank up that high is very handy IMO.

Another thing...the S&B at 25X is one bad a55 spotting scope for when you are shooting in teams. When we did Area 51 last year one of our guys had a S&B 5-25X he was able to call for correction a lot better than my NXS @ 15X.

If you are going to spend S&B dollars might as well get the scope that you can do it all with.

Just my 2 cents...or your 600.00 actually LOL.

Vu 308
01-09-2008, 8:37 PM
By the way...Call Mike Cecil with CSGUNWORKS...he can score S&B for a really fair price. Tell him Vu sent ya. 916-290-2749

Cypriss32
01-09-2008, 8:37 PM
GET IT! I seriously wish I had the $$$ or else id get one. After todays shooting you guys are right, my scope was around 10-14 power all day except when I shoot load testing, and I can throw my Long Range 6.5-20x 50mm For that!

If you dont like the S&B you can allways sell it for more then you paid after things settle down. Option 2 build an AR10 or option 3 give it to me?

rksimple
01-09-2008, 8:51 PM
Good points Adam. And option 3 isn't going to happen!

I hear ya' Vu. I've dealt with Mike before, but on something like this, being in california and paying the tax on it would killl the price. The 5-25 is the biggest and baddest and can serve many purposes. I guess I'm just going to have to buy both. Anybody need a crown or root canal??? I need some overtime!

Cypriss32
01-09-2008, 8:57 PM
I almost did.........Lucky for me it hurt because I fell on my face a few days before..... But dude, Im wana use that 3-12x..... Im looking at the SH forum right now, and im dieing looking at the 4-16x XR scope that Lowlight has with lit retical. I want it so bad! Thinking hard about this next year upgrading major on glass and no more rifles after my 2 barrels get done from rock. Got an 7mm and 30 cal barrel. One for my M70 7wsm, and one for an GAP7000 AICS2.0! Im thinking about the 4-16x 42mm Single turn, Lit XR for my 30-06. It will get me to 1400 yards!

Jicko
01-09-2008, 8:57 PM
Go all the way... .then u won't come back and regret it....

Cypriss32
01-09-2008, 9:00 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/adam5432002/Bender2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/adam5432002/Bender1.jpg
Im looking at the bottom pic, bottom right scope.
The top one is the 3-12x DT, middle is the 3-12x USMC scope, and then the 4-16x.
Posted by LOWLIGHT off SnipersHIDE!

rksimple
01-09-2008, 9:01 PM
Adam-those rifles are going to deserve awesome glass. That 4-16 is just about perfect.

PistolPete75
01-09-2008, 9:24 PM
for .308 shooting, you don't need more than 20x.

personally, i use prefer to use 12-20x from 100-1000yard shooting.

but the questions comes to spending the money, just drop the money and get the higher magnification. in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't make much of a difference in terms of dollars.

Timberwolf
01-09-2008, 9:52 PM
I'd go with the 3-12. I started out with a Leupy MK IV 8.5-25 and have slowly gone down in magnification to the Nikon 4-16 which I swear by. It stays on 12X 99.9% of the time from 100 - 1000, paper or steel.

Cypriss32
01-09-2008, 9:58 PM
Ya T Dawg is right! Hey were the hell are we going for the class next week? Anychance of a crony this weekend for me? I only need you to fire 3 rounds to give me vel.

EmphaticThumb
01-09-2008, 10:51 PM
Ulitmately you need to make the choice that fits you best. Generally the top end PM2 scopes are all very similar in price unless you can get some kind of special deal(like the 3-12s that Premier is getting rid of).

Another thing to consider though is that the 5-25 has more elevation adjustment than the other scopes, 93 MOA vs 56 MOA for the 4-16, and 79 MOA for the Marine Corps 3-12. I also heard that the 5-25 has a parallax adjustment that will adjust closer than the others, but I can't confirm that, the S&B website specs say 50m to infinity for all PM2s, my 5-25 parallax goes down to 10m, but that is the only PM2 I have handled.

I got the 5-25 because it is sitting on an AI AE, which has a flat zero MOA base, and I wanted to get the extra elevation incase I needed it. I also figured I might as well get the higher magnification just in case. I haven't put a lot of rounds downrange but I have mostly used 10 or 15x, that has felt comfortable at the distances I have used it( 100-600 yards)

Vu 308
01-10-2008, 7:01 AM
Hey RKsimple,

I'd wait till after SHOT before you buy.

I am hearing some rumors that Nightforce may have something worth looking at.

All my rigs wear NF NXS 3-15X NPR1 optics since I am a MOA guy. Hard for me to picture 2/10ths of a mil vs 2MOA.

I suggest the P4 Fine reticle though. The regular P4 is a lil too thick for my taste.

Vu

PS...I'd still give Mike a ring since he is known to work magic when he is able to. + If your scope takes a dump...which they can and will, Mikes customer service is 2nd to none.

rksimple
01-10-2008, 11:12 AM
Hey RKsimple,

I'd wait till after SHOT before you buy.

I am hearing some rumors that Nightforce may have something worth looking at.

All my rigs wear NF NXS 3-15X NPR1 optics since I am a MOA guy. Hard for me to picture 2/10ths of a mil vs 2MOA.

I suggest the P4 Fine reticle though. The regular P4 is a lil too thick for my taste.

Vu

PS...I'd still give Mike a ring since he is known to work magic when he is able to. + If your scope takes a dump...which they can and will, Mikes customer service is 2nd to none.

I agree on the p4 being a little thick. One of my shooting buddies has a couple of 5-25s with the p4 and at 20x and above, it seems a bit thick. I've only used it at distance (600 and beyond) so i don't know what it would look like on paper 300 and in.

I've also heard the same rumor about the nightforce. I've heard the ffp buzz, but are they doing anything about the turrets? I need more than 5 mils per turn!

Vu 308
01-10-2008, 1:59 PM
If there is a God...the NXS will be FFP and 20MOA per turn! And not over 2200.00 LOL

In your opinion...do you think there is an extra 1500.00 worth of glass over an NXS?

I have played with a few S&Bs and just can't justify one yet IMO.

rksimple
01-10-2008, 3:07 PM
If there is a God...the NXS will be FFP and 20MOA per turn! And not over 2200.00 LOL

In your opinion...do you think there is an extra 1500.00 worth of glass over an NXS?



NO! The ffp, 12 mils per turn, and reputation (to some extent) is for most. I've said many times that if NF came out with a ffp scope with decent turrets in mils, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. They've lost many sales by not having a ffp scope and not thinking one was necessary. Just look at all the threads on SH about ffp, metric scopes. There aren't to many options in the neighborhood of NF's pricepoint. Its about time they came around.

Jicko
01-11-2008, 3:35 PM
Now..... let me "hijack" the thread.... since I think rksimple have his answer already...

How's a 16X fixed magnification do w/ a 308 700PSS? For tactical matches...... is it too "high"? or is it.... OK?

Prc329
01-11-2008, 3:37 PM
Might be to long for close up stuff. Timberwolf's match has ranges from 100 to 900. Might be to long for the 100 stuff.

rksimple
01-11-2008, 3:48 PM
Now..... let me "hijack" the thread.... since I think rksimple have his answer already...

How's a 16X fixed magnification do w/ a 308 700PSS? For tactical matches...... is it too "high"? or is it.... OK?

Too much if its fixed. I'd probably only ever use 8-18x or so. I think I'm just going to stick it out and get the 5-25. More versatile, no compromising.

Prc329
01-11-2008, 3:51 PM
Every time you, Pete and wildcard open your mouths I go broke.

Cypriss32
01-11-2008, 5:52 PM
Get the 3-12 just to have! Its so worth it, too bad i dont have the $$$.