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Exodus343
09-02-2013, 4:56 PM
:(

Went to the range today, dialed in my new loads at 100

can't shoot 1/2 moa at all, I have shot sub moa before but not consistently...
I don't know what I am doing wrong
I load my bipod, and follow through with each round but the groups are just so so horrible :confused:


/rant over


*edit
I am using a R700 LTR 20" fluted barrel
with a SWFA 10x42
shooting 168 factory seconds with 41.8 IMR 4064 in a LC LR case using WLR
all trimmed to 2.005" and seated to 2.800"

dlouie87
09-02-2013, 5:29 PM
:(

Went to the range today, dialed in my new loads at 100

can't shoot 1/2 moa at all, I don't know what I am doing wrong
I load my bipod, and follow through with each round but the groups are just so so horrible :confused:


/rant over

Not to sound like an *** but you need to post more info. What did you shoot, what ammo did you shoot out of it (Could be some bad loads), what were the wind conditions, what are your shooting abilities, etc.

With even all those questions answered and assuming that you have shot 1/2 MOA with that platform before, you might have just had a bad day..... but if you never shot 1/2 MOA or your rifle is not capable of that type of accuracy, then it's you or the rifle to blame.

Your original post basically sounds like... "I went to the race track with my automobile today but I can't get it to run under 12.XX seconds......"

vliberatore
09-02-2013, 5:37 PM
Slow down
Control your breathing
Relax

Fjold
09-02-2013, 6:06 PM
How do you know that your gun and ammunition are capable of shooting 1/2 MOA?

Czechsix
09-02-2013, 6:07 PM
So....what's horrible? What makes it horrible relative to previous groups?

toby
09-02-2013, 6:16 PM
Lose the Bipod and start with a good rest.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 6:23 PM
But I shoot better with a bipod on prone? :confused:

Sorry for forgetting the details
I'm shooting a 20" R700 LTR with 168 hpbt factory seconds (most likely Sierra) at 100 yards

And my rifle is capable of sub-MOA

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 6:27 PM
Also I forgot to mention, I kept fighting the rear bag

Any recommendation for a solid one?

Spyder
09-02-2013, 6:32 PM
168 hpbt factory seconds (most likely Sierra) at 100 yards

And my rifle is capable of sub-MOA
Factory seconds generally won't reliably shoot 1/2 moa? And how do you know that your rifle is capable of it?

Also I forgot to mention, I kept fighting the rear bag

Any recommendation for a solid one?

TAB.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 6:37 PM
I don't
But I'm staying hopeful
Third time behind a bolt gun if that counts as anything..
Seeing all the sub-MOA groups here on calguns and then seeing my groups just makes me wonder what am I doing wrong :confused:

Merc1138
09-02-2013, 6:39 PM
Also I forgot to mention, I kept fighting the rear bag

Any recommendation for a solid one?

Or you could just get an understanding of NPOA so you aren't fighting with the bags.

I don't
But I'm staying hopeful
Third time behind a bolt gun if that counts as anything..
Seeing all the sub-MOA groups here on calguns and then seeing my groups just makes me wonder what am I doing wrong :confused:

Why are you buying factory seconds bullets, and expecting great performance? You haven't even described the rifle yet. No one is going to be able to help you with anything. If your shooting is as vague as your post, that might be why you can't compare to the others posting images of cherry picked groups from the entire day.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 6:42 PM
Aren't factory seconds just cosmetically blemished?

Unless something IS effecting performance

And I did, r700 LTR with a SWFA 10x42 shooting with a Harris bipod

toby
09-02-2013, 6:48 PM
Your fighting the rear bag because the bipod is moving,it is not a solid rest. Did your rifle shoot better before or from a bench or without the bipod?

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 6:52 PM
Your fighting the rear bag because the bipod is moving,it is not a solid rest. Did your rifle shoot better before or from a bench or without the bipod?

I've tried shooting on a bench with a front bag, bipod, and prone on the ground with a bipod

I shot the most accurate and consistent on the ground with the bipod
which is really confusing because everyone tells me to shoot off a rest off the bench YET my groups open WIDE open when I do that :confused:

Stockton
09-02-2013, 6:57 PM
Well here are a few tips. From my knowledge of owning and shooting an LTR, my experience is they are out of box moa rifles at 100yds (with match grade ammo). Unless you have something seriously wrong with you or rifle I would say that ammo is the first to get rid of.

Torque your stock, base, and rings to proper specs.
Use match grade ammo
Lose the bipod (for now) and use a sand bag
Dry fire a lot.(Find an inanimate object to put scope on and work on fundamentals)
Have fun!

Intimid8tor
09-02-2013, 6:59 PM
You need to get some known ammo and find someone to help you get going. It sounds like you are throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. You expect the rifle to be able to shoot 1/2moa, but you don't know for sure.

Have you ever shot 1/2 MOA, with anything? Are you capable of shooting 1/2 MOA at this point? Maybe someone local with experience can meet you at the range and take some shots to start eliminating different variables.

In the meantime, eliminate what you can. Good quality ammo, no seconds. A good rest, front and back, etc.

I'm not an accuracy shooter by any means. What I am though is a trouble shooter. And when I am challenged at something, I remove variables until I get a known starting point. Then I add things back in, one at a time to maintain consistency and understand what my changes are doing.

postal
09-02-2013, 7:01 PM
PM lynn jr.

He'll get you sorted out.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 7:02 PM
You need to get some known ammo and find someone to help you get going. It sounds like you are throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. You expect the rifle to be able to shoot 1/2moa, but you don't know for sure.

Have you ever shot 1/2 MOA, with anything? Are you capable of shooting 1/2 MOA at this point? Maybe someone local with experience can meet you at the range and take some shots to start eliminating different variables.

In the meantime, eliminate what you can. Good quality ammo, no seconds. A good rest, front and back, etc.

I'm not an accuracy shooter by any means. What I am though is a trouble shooter. And when I am challenged at something, I remove variables until I get a known starting point. Then I add things back in, one at a time to maintain consistency and understand what my changes are doing.


that is exactly what me and my friend talked about today on the drive home
I need to find some 168 FGMM or something similar or buy SMKs and not factory seconds

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 7:06 PM
also edited details in the OP including my load data

PrimaryArms
09-02-2013, 7:08 PM
If your load development is complete.

1.Get an anti cant device.
2. Get a bipod that swivels level.
3. Body alignment
4. Sight alignment.
5. Trigger and breath control.
Look at your crosshair and take a deer breath and notice where they end up when your breath is done. Time it where when your breath is done your crosshair are dead center and don't pull the trigger you should be squeezing with your breath.
6. Rear bag I you don't know how to use one learn.
7. Consistency.
8. Learn your wind.
9. Chick placement
10. Oh yeah a blister on your fingers from thousands of rounds down range.

Hope this helps.

Dimitri

LCU1670
09-02-2013, 7:09 PM
Shoot prone off a bag, and get a natural point of aim.

Side note, did a Tall target Test on my SWFA SS 10x42, had an 8.4% error!!! Sent it back, they just sent me a new one, heres hoping!

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 7:11 PM
Shoot prone off a bag, and get a natural point of aim.

Side note, did a Tall target Test on my SWFA SS 10x42, had an 8.4% error!!! Sent it back, they just sent me a new one, heres hoping!

I did not do this surprisingly yet
gotta load up some rounds using VARGET cause apparently I've been using wrong 308 powder :facepalm:

pennstater
09-02-2013, 7:44 PM
Exodus343,
There is some good sound advice here; look thru and think what these guys are saying. Also, DO NOT struggle with the rear bag, WORK WITH IT! I agree with other posters; you may be having trouble with your bi-pod. Try a more solid rest,sand bags or a tri-pod type front rest[with sand bag]. It seems you're on the right track, but, keep trying different holds. And control your breathing. VERY important.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 7:48 PM
Exodus343,
There is some good sound advice here; look thru and think what these guys are saying. Also, DO NOT struggle with the rear bag, WORK WITH IT! I agree with other posters; you may be having trouble with your bi-pod. Try a more solid rest,sand bags or a tri-pod type front rest[with sand bag]. It seems you're on the right track, but, keep trying different holds. And control your breathing. VERY important.

yeah I need to slow down and be more patient
my patience is slowly growing ever since I started shooting a bolt gun

and breathing, breathing is something I MUST be consistent on

NorCalFocus
09-02-2013, 7:59 PM
I did not do this surprisingly yet
gotta load up some rounds using VARGET cause apparently I've been using wrong 308 powder :facepalm:

Varget isn't the only .308 powder, its just the most consitaint.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:01 PM
Varget isn't the only .308 powder, its just the most consitaint.

well people are telling me IMR 4064 is too slow

chad allred
09-02-2013, 8:11 PM
Use a rear bag if your not

Fjold
09-02-2013, 8:14 PM
I don't
But I'm staying hopeful
Third time behind a bolt gun if that counts as anything..
Seeing all the sub-MOA groups here on calguns and then seeing my groups just makes me wonder what am I doing wrong :confused:


I don't think that anyone can shoot 1/2 MOA on their third time shooting a bolt gun, especially with a stock rifle and bullet seconds.

Who's ammunition is it? How do you know that your gun likes that load? Besides the basics of shooting that others have covered, you need to get some match ammunition and see what you can do with it in your rifle. If you can put match ammo reliably into 1 MOA you can then fine tune your handloads to shoot better.

Have you been able to get any ammunition into 1 MOA on a consistent basis?

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:16 PM
I don't think that anyone can shoot 1/2 MOA on their third time shooting a bolt gun, especially with a stock rifle and bullet seconds.

Who's ammunition is it? How do you know that your gun likes that load? Besides the basics of shooting that others have covered, you need to get some match ammunition and see what you can do with it in your rifle. If you can put match ammo reliably into 1 MOA you can then fine tune your handloads to shoot better.

Have you been able to get any ammunition into 1 MOA on a consistent basis?

a few times yes
but not consistent enough to know my rifle ACTUALLY likes that load

postal
09-02-2013, 8:40 PM
I just bought an F1 indy car....

My third lap around the track, I'm still not getting lap times like Mario Andretti Even though I'm using Arco 'regular unleaded'.

**HELP!!!**

Seriously...

Talk to lynn jr.

He'll get ya shooting straight.

vliberatore
09-02-2013, 8:40 PM
Spring $60 for 2 boxes of ammo. Either some Hornady Amax 168s BTHP Match ammo or FGMM. Then see what you are capable of shooting.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:42 PM
Spring $60 for 2 boxes of ammo. Either some Hornady Amax 168s BTHP Match ammo or FGMM. Then see what you are capable of shooting.

that is my next plan
just have to find them in stock somewhere without getting raped...


and where is Lynn Jr. located?

postal
09-02-2013, 8:43 PM
a few times yes
but not consistent enough to know my rifle ACTUALLY likes that load

Wait....

"a few times...."

Even though this is your 3rd time to the range with this rifle?

Most people say a 'couple' as in a man and woman are a "couple"... meaning 2....

A 'few' mean more than a 'couple' (two) more like meaning 3 or maybe 4....

So how did you do sub moa a "a few times" when you've only been to the range 3 times.. and NOT done it yet?

Not nit picking... just want some clarification.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:44 PM
Wait....

"a few times...."

Even though this is your 3rd time to the range with this rifle?

Most people say a 'couple' as in a man and woman are a "couple"... meaning 2....

A 'few' mean more than a 'couple' (two) more like meaning 3 or maybe 4....

So how did you do sub moa a "a few times" when you've only been to the range 3 times.. and NOT done it yet?

Not nit picking... just want some clarification.


cause I would shoot more than 20 rounds?
lol...?

NorCalFocus
09-02-2013, 8:45 PM
AS the others are saying your third time behind a bolt gun its mostly you.

But do you know someone that can custom load for you?

postal
09-02-2013, 8:48 PM
Lynnjr... is a member here. Apparently, according to him... he is the shiznit for anything everything long range/accuracy...

No one, no where, apparently knows as much as he does.

It just was a joke.

Not directed at you....

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:48 PM
AS the others are saying your third time behind a bolt gun its mostly you.

But do you know someone that can custom load for you?

I have a friend who shoots 50s competitively but I don't think he has the time to load for me

and what's the point of me getting so much reloading gear if I have to rely on others to custom load? I want to be able to do all this myself :D

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:50 PM
Lynnjr... is a member here. Apparently, according to him... he is the shiznit for anything everything long range/accuracy...

No one, no where, apparently knows as much as he does.

It just was a joke.

Not directed at you....

lol
I'm afraid I do not follow the things he said, so yeah no idea who he is

NorCalFocus
09-02-2013, 8:51 PM
Oh sorry, thought I read you didn't have loading gear lol.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:53 PM
Oh sorry, thought I read you didn't have loading gear lol.

it's alright
a lot of posts in this thread lol

but yeah I handload and I recently started to reload "accurately"

so there are just too many variables going on right now, gotta start eliminating one by one

Fjold
09-02-2013, 8:53 PM
One other secret..........99+% of the people on here can't shoot 1/2MOA.

I have guns that have shot better than 1/4 MOA and I shoot my rifles 3-4 times a month and I have to work hard, get lucky with the conditions and the stars have to align to shoot two groups in a row into 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 8:57 PM
One other secret..........99+% of the people on here can't shoot 1/2MOA.

I have guns that have shot better than 1/4 MOA and I shoot my rifles 3-4 times a month and I have to work hard, get lucky with the conditions and the stars have to align to shoot two groups in a row into 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.

yeah another member I know personally has told me that
I would be happy if I could just shoot sub MOA consistently at 100 yards and start pushing it to 200, 300, etc etc

Bongos
09-02-2013, 9:03 PM
I've been shooting a long time and in the last 10 yrs I've only seen one guy did back to back 5 round groups of .5 MOA or better. Why do you think real sniper rifles like R&D Precision Guardian, Tango 51 and GAP rifles costs anywhere from $3,000 - $6000. This is just for the gun. The cost difference is .5" capability, a lot of medium tier guns such as the Rem PSS (LTR is a shorten version) can do MOA, but not .5 consistently. A lot of work goes into getting a rifle accurate.

As far as reloading, you will also need to weigh everything bullet, same brass lot, everything the same.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 9:07 PM
I've been shooting a long time and in the last 10 yrs I've only seen one guy did back to back 5 round groups of .5 MOA or better. Why do you think real sniper rifles like R&D Precision Guardian, Tango 51 and GAP rifles costs anywhere from $3,000 - $6000. This is just for the gun. The cost difference is .5" capability, a lot of medium tier guns such as the Rem PSS (LTR is a shorten version) can do MOA, but not .5 consistently. A lot of work goes into getting a rifle accurate.

As far as reloading, you will also need to weigh everything bullet, same brass lot, everything the same.

already on that
i am measuring each ogive of each bullet and putting them in lots
so much more consistent with my Hornady bullet comparator tool

sub moa is what I am aiming for .5 MOA is something I want to do after I finish college where I actually will have the $ to buy a GAP or a Surgeon action

LynnJr
09-02-2013, 9:09 PM
PM lynn jr.

He'll get you sorted out.

Exodus
I am so good I could even get Postal to shoot small.LOLROFLMAO

To shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards isn't all that hard with a great set-up and several posters on this website do it routinely.

The stocks on these guns are extremely rigid with wide flat forends.They use scopes with atleast 36 power and there trigger pull is 1.5-2 ounces.The front bag is soaked in laundry starch for several days so when it dries it fits the stock like a glove.They use tape with carnuba wax so the gun recoils rearward without any unwanted movement or stickiness to the bags.Once properly set-up a heavygun doesn't even need a scope.
Watch this video and notice the gun recoiling in the bags.It is extremely smooth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfHqzlCPgS8
If his gun shot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards he would throw the barrel away

If you lived closer we could pull your gun down one piece at a time and you could see the affect each piece has on the final accuracy of your gun.

In your example the ammo needs to be looked at as well.
You don't need great bullets or sorted bullets for 1/2 MOA at 100 yards but good bullets help get rid of flyers.You mentioned a powder charge but didn't mention if this was yourt most accurate charge or one posted by other shooters?
Your scope is monumental in shooting small groups at 100 yards.With the higher magnification scopes you aim smaller and more consistently than you do with a 3x9 with a heavy duplex reticle.
You also need a trigger light enough so your not jerking the gun around trying to make it fire.I have never seen a benchrest rifle with more than 6 ounces of trigger pull weight.
You also mentioned the gun shot better off of a bipod than it did off of bags.I have seen shooters resting there barrel on the front bag instead of there stock and this ruins any chance at all of shooting a small group.You also need to remove all of your sling swivels so they don't grab your front or rear bag.
I own several 700 5R's and PSS's but no rifle like yours.I would imagine the stock is very flimsy so moving the front bag rearward toward the action will usually aid accuracy not hurt it.
I am sure Postal knows more about accuracy than every poster here so he can critique my post and point out any errors and get you shooting small.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 9:27 PM
Exodus
I am so good I could even get Postal to shoot small.LOLROFLMAO

To shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards isn't all that hard with a great set-up and several posters on this website do it routinely.

The stocks on these guns are extremely rigid with wide flat forends.They use scopes with atleast 36 power and there trigger pull is 1.5-2 ounces.The front bag is soaked in laundry starch for several days so when it dries it fits the stock like a glove.They use tape with carnuba wax so the gun recoils rearward without any unwanted movement or stickiness to the bags.Once properly set-up a heavygun doesn't even need a scope.
Watch this video and notice the gun recoiling in the bags.It is extremely smooth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfHqzlCPgS8
If his gun shot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards he would throw the barrel away

If you lived closer we could pull your gun down one piece at a time and you could see the affect each piece has on the final accuracy of your gun.

In your example the ammo needs to be looked at as well.
You don't need great bullets or sorted bullets for 1/2 MOA at 100 yards but good bullets help get rid of flyers.You mentioned a powder charge but didn't mention if this was yourt most accurate charge or one posted by other shooters?
Your scope is monumental in shooting small groups at 100 yards.With the higher magnification scopes you aim smaller and more consistently than you do with a 3x9 with a heavy duplex reticle.
You also need a trigger light enough so your not jerking the gun around trying to make it fire.I have never seen a benchrest rifle with more than 6 ounces of trigger pull weight.
You also mentioned the gun shot better off of a bipod than it did off of bags.I have seen shooters resting there barrel on the front bag instead of there stock and this ruins any chance at all of shooting a small group.You also need to remove all of your sling swivels so they don't grab your front or rear bag.
I own several 700 5R's and PSS's but no rifle like yours.I would imagine the stock is very flimsy so moving the front bag rearward toward the action will usually aid accuracy not hurt it.
I am sure Postal knows more about accuracy than every poster here so he can critique my post and point out any errors and get you shooting small.


so you are the famous LynnJr.
where exactly are you located?

and I have a HS Sendero stock

Merc1138
09-02-2013, 9:28 PM
Lynnjr... is a member here. Apparently, according to him... he is the shiznit for anything everything long range/accuracy...

No one, no where, apparently knows as much as he does.

It just was a joke.

Not directed at you....

Now why'd you have to go and do that? You know he's like Beetlejuice. Ya'll typed his name 3 times and "poof" there he is.

ar15barrels
09-02-2013, 9:37 PM
Now why'd you have to go and do that?
You know he's like Beetlejuice. Ya'll typed his name 3 times and "poof" there he is.

This is not gonna end well.

HK Dave
09-02-2013, 9:46 PM
Now why'd you have to go and do that? You know he's like Beetlejuice. Ya'll typed his name 3 times and "poof" there he is.

lmao

HK Dave
09-02-2013, 9:51 PM
One other secret..........99+% of the people on here can't shoot 1/2MOA.

I have guns that have shot better than 1/4 MOA and I shoot my rifles 3-4 times a month and I have to work hard, get lucky with the conditions and the stars have to align to shoot two groups in a row into 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.

This ^^^

I would add the following...

Most folks that work at gun stores probably rarely get to shoot. I'd put money on the fact that they probably can't shoot worth a damn. (let's not even begin with inet commandos)

But when it comes time to sell you that chrome lined, mass produced AR15, you know damn well they are going to say it will shoot sub moa guaranteed.

Sure it will... one 3 shot group out of 20... absolutely! :D

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 9:55 PM
This ^^^

I would add the following...

Most folks that work at gun stores probably rarely get to shoot. I'd put money on the fact that they probably can't shoot worth a damn. (let's not even begin with inet commandos)

But when it comes time to sell you that chrome lined, mass produced AR15, you know damn well they are going to say it will shoot sub moa guaranteed.

Sure it will... one 3 shot group out of 20... absolutely! :D

LOL

that's why I avoid window shopping at gun stores and go in for PPTs or DROSing something I already researched about ;)

Merc1138
09-02-2013, 9:57 PM
This ^^^

I would add the following...

Most folks that work at gun stores probably rarely get to shoot. I'd put money on the fact that they probably can't shoot worth a damn. (let's not even begin with inet commandos)

But when it comes time to sell you that chrome lined, mass produced AR15, you know damn well they are going to say it will shoot sub moa guaranteed.

Sure it will... one 3 shot group out of 20... absolutely! :D

That's why I posted my comment about people cherry picking groups for photos :p

If anyone were to believe that so many people on calguns(or even a lot of other websites) were really shooting half moa consistently when they go to the range, at the same time you'd have to wonder why no one ever stayed at the range for longer than 20 minutes.

CSACANNONEER
09-02-2013, 9:58 PM
The FCSA's "Screamer Program" recognizes each time a .6moa group or better is shot. The top shooters routinely don't shoot .6moa groups consistently. No one shoots .5moa without investing some quality trigger time. 3 range trips is a start but, don't kick yourself because you're not superhuman.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 10:00 PM
The FCSA's "Screamer Program" recognizes each time a .6moa group or better is shot. The top shooters routinely don't shoot .6moa groups consistently. No one shoots .5moa without investing some quality trigger time. 3 range trips is a start but, don't kick yourself because you're not superhuman.

but my mom said I could be anything I wanted to be...
and I want to be a .5 MOA shooter :p

lol yeah, I really need to meet up with you more experienced guys and really learn my fundamentals the right way

youtube videos just can't get close enough as the real deal

vliberatore
09-02-2013, 10:19 PM
but my mom said I could be anything I wanted to be...
and I want to be a .5 MOA shooter :p

lol yeah, I really need to meet up with you more experienced guys and really learn my fundamentals the right way

youtube videos just can't get close enough as the real deal

Are you on caprc.com yet?

John Browning
09-02-2013, 10:20 PM
Internet rifle range meets reality.

.5 MOA is a lot harder in the real world than it is on the internet.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 10:20 PM
Are you on caprc.com yet?

yes I am
same name as my CG name

waiting for spring 14 to roll along, Randall said that's when the clinics are going to be held, and I really need to go to clinic A to get my s*** down lol

Internet rifle range meets reality.

.5 MOA is a lot harder in the real world than it is on the internet.

yup, I just thought that .5 moa was easily obtainable since all the pictures I seen here were groups I wish I can shoot....
but I realized that it's nearly impossible to shoot those kind of groups every single time

HK Dave
09-02-2013, 10:29 PM
Makes you feel a little better finding out that people don't REALLY look like they do in the magazines and movies huh? ;)

mark501w
09-02-2013, 10:30 PM
Check your stock & scope for loosness.

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 10:32 PM
Makes you feel a little better finding out that people don't REALLY look like they do in the magazines and movies huh? ;)

LOL

no just realized that, I am actually shooting and learning from my failures
while also realizing that there is a lot of precision shooter commandos on calguns ;)

NorCalFocus
09-02-2013, 10:39 PM
Hell I shot just over a MOZ group with my new gun and thought I was superman.

Merc1138
09-02-2013, 10:40 PM
Hell I shot just over a MOZ group with my new gun and thought I was superman.

Minute of Zod? You shootin' eye beams at the range?

NorCalFocus
09-02-2013, 10:55 PM
Minute of Zod? You shootin' eye beams at the range?

LOL! Its getting late and my typing is getting worser.

HK Dave
09-02-2013, 11:16 PM
LOL

no just realized that, I am actually shooting and learning from my failures
while also realizing that there is a lot of precision shooter commandos on calguns ;)

You should ask me sometime about my 10 years working in advertising. You would be amazed as what can be done with proper lighting, makeup and photoshop. ;)

Exodus343
09-02-2013, 11:18 PM
You should ask me sometime about my 10 years working in advertising. You would be amazed as what can be done with proper lighting, makeup and photoshop. ;)

haha the question is Dave, do I really want to know? :TFH:

Cadre
09-03-2013, 12:00 AM
maybe today was just a bad day, we all have those right.

LynnJr
09-03-2013, 6:03 AM
Exodus
There are actually a few posters here that can shoot as well as most here can type about it.The problem is this website is full of guys who know nothing at all about accuracy but have been posting here for so long there BS is believed.
If they don't compete chances are they only shoot with there keyboard and Merc gives out some of the worst advice I have ever read on the internet.

If you were in norhern cal we would take your rifle to the range and shoot a couple groups to get a base line with your current ammo.
I would then put a target scope on it and repeat.I would then put a bench stock on it and repeat then a 2 ounce trigger and repeat.

At this point we would have your gun set up as good as it is going to shoot with your current action and barrel.

We would then work on load development while at the range to get all of the accuracy that barreled action can produce.

If your loading technique has you measuring and sorting bullets by ogive length and your not shooting very well at all something is way wrong and the advice given here is marginal at best.

The main difference between my posts and those of most others is I use my real name and you can look up my shooting accomplishments online and know nothing is ever gonna be sugar coated but its gonna be the truth and helpful.With my equipment you would be shooting 1/2 moa at 100 yards without much coaching.

When csacannoneer said 0.6 moa is a screamer he was talking about 1000 yard 50 bmg matches not 100 yards.

With factory barrels 1/2 moa consistently is usually not attainable.Shooting 1/2 moa with a completely factory 700 with no upgrades and a typical hunting type scope is almost impossible.Improving your shooting while getting advice here would be even more difficult as most here are young kids.

x-007
09-03-2013, 8:13 AM
Did you mention that this is your FIRST time with a bolt-action rifle? Well, if that's the case, then you're possibly having a problem with the slightly extra bit of recoil against your shoulder. Semi-auto rifles tend to be "buffered" in the recoil aspect, since some of the gases are escaping from the barrel to make the gas system work. With bolt rifles, you're shooting full bore power out the muzzle. In essence, it might be that you're having some "flinch" factor, and to solve the problem, you might try shooting while wearing a shoulder recoil pad.

Factory "seconds" bullets? They're usually more than just "cosmetic" rejects, and may even be floor sweepings that were dropped and slightly disfigured. They're "okay" to shoot, but NOT for accuracy.

-hanko
09-03-2013, 8:41 AM
Did you mention that this is your FIRST time with a bolt-action rifle? Well, if that's the case, then you're possibly having a problem with the slightly extra bit of recoil against your shoulder. Semi-auto rifles tend to be "buffered" in the recoil aspect, since some of the gases are escaping from the barrel to make the gas system work. With bolt rifles, you're shooting full bore power out the muzzle. In essence, it might be that you're having some "flinch" factor, and to solve the problem, you might try shooting while wearing a shoulder recoil pad.

Factory "seconds" bullets? They're usually more than just "cosmetic" rejects, and may even be floor sweepings that were dropped and slightly disfigured. They're "okay" to shoot, but NOT for accuracy.
If you have limited experience with a weapon, you might consider attending the next Appleseed session near you...even if it's not near, it's definitely worth the drive.

Agree on the "factory seconds" bullets.

-hanko

Merc1138
09-03-2013, 9:06 AM
Exodus
There are actually a few posters here that can shoot as well as most here can type about it.The problem is this website is full of guys who know nothing at all about accuracy but have been posting here for so long there BS is believed.
If they don't compete chances are they only shoot with there keyboard and Merc gives out some of the worst advice I have ever read on the internet.

If you were in norhern cal we would take your rifle to the range and shoot a couple groups to get a base line with your current ammo.
I would then put a target scope on it and repeat.I would then put a bench stock on it and repeat then a 2 ounce trigger and repeat.

At this point we would have your gun set up as good as it is going to shoot with your current action and barrel.

We would then work on load development while at the range to get all of the accuracy that barreled action can produce.

If your loading technique has you measuring and sorting bullets by ogive length and your not shooting very well at all something is way wrong and the advice given here is marginal at best.

The main difference between my posts and those of most others is I use my real name and you can look up my shooting accomplishments online and know nothing is ever gonna be sugar coated but its gonna be the truth and helpful.With my equipment you would be shooting 1/2 moa at 100 yards without much coaching.

When csacannoneer said 0.6 moa is a screamer he was talking about 1000 yard 50 bmg matches not 100 yards.

With factory barrels 1/2 moa consistently is usually not attainable.Shooting 1/2 moa with a completely factory 700 with no upgrades and a typical hunting type scope is almost impossible.Improving your shooting while getting advice here would be even more difficult as most here are young kids.

Still mad that I(and a load of other people) recommended someone learn fundamentals on a .22lr bro?

HK Dave
09-03-2013, 9:13 AM
Exodus, I ordered a 1000 of those factory seconds from Powder Valley. I found that at least 5% are not usable at all just by looking at them... I loaded up a couple of hundred and am going to test them out.

At least we'll know if your bullets are an issue. ;)

Wrangler John
09-03-2013, 9:49 AM
There isn't anything mystical about shooting .5" groups or smaller. In fact, I consider .5" accuracy at 100 yards the minimum viable accuracy for varmint hunting. I do nothing but build up varmint rifles and hunt ground squirrels.

There are a few personal rules I maintain when developing a new rifle and working up a load. Today, many factory rifles and ammunition are quite capable of rivaling a high end varmint rifle, which is good thing. Experimentation is necessary and experience points us to the direction to take.

Break in the barrel. Some wags say this isn't necessary, but they are wrong. One gun writer wrote an entire article about not being able to see the difference in barrel finish through a bore scope while breaking in a rifle. Yet he could not see the microscopic and internal stress changes that occurred as the process progressed. New barrels need to be cleaned before the first shot, really cleaned, to remove manufacturing gunk and proof load residue ( if any) and any residual lapping compound. Then the bore needs to be lubricated with an anti-fouling compound. I have used Grafoil, Lock-Ease, Lyman's Moly Bore Paste, Holland's Witches Brew Bore Lube, and most recently Hornady's First Firing New Gun Bore & Action Conditioner. I fire one shot, clean and relube and fire again, repeating the process for five shots. Then increase to 5 shots between cleaning and relubing for 20 shots. Finally, I run 10 shots between each cleaning and lubing cycle. At some point between 30 and 50 shots there is usually a significant reduction in group size and a drop in bore fouling. This is the break in point. Most fouling is coming from the chamber throat, where copper is liberated from the bullet and deposited down the bore as a plasma. Once the throat is "polished" (actually its eroded, smoothing the chamber reamer marks) fouling is reduced. Never overheat a barrel, keep it cool by allowing time between shots.

From then on I lube the barrel before shooting or hunting with one or another bore lubes. I never shoot a dry bore, even with the polygonal rifled barrels.

Mounting a scope is as important as any other part of building a rifle. The base (s) must precisely fit the contour of the receiver, without any misalignment that can introduce stress in the base or rings relative to the scope tube. The rings must align centered with each other when attached to the base. I use Ken Farrell bases for the most part because they are set up for epoxy bedding to the action. This does not glue the base to the receiver, the epoxy adheres just to the base, filling in any space(s) between the action and base, keeping it dead flat. Two piece bases must be checked to be certain that they are in perfect alignment with each other and level across the top, otherwise they must be shimmed or fitted. I use Burris Signature Zee Rings with the bushings to reduce stress on the scope tube and torque all screws using a precision torque gauge. I never use thread locking compound, but clean the screws and lightly oil them to provide accurate torque settings - they never come loose.

Bottom metal or action screw tension has a profound effect on grouping as does stock bedding. Below is an illustration of how action screw torque effects grouping. This is a three screw Savage action, but the process transfers to the two screw Remington action that can bend if bedding is off and the screws not properly set. I settled on 35-35-30 in lb front, mid and rear screws.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/ActionScrewTension.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/ActionScrewTension.jpg.html)

Load development. If at first you don’t succeed try again. The go to powders for the .308 Winchester seem to be IMR 4064 and IMR 4895, with H-4895 (not exactly the same powder) also mentioned. Nosler recommends Viht N140 for use with their 150/155 grn bullets, and BL-C(2) with the 165/168, and H-380 with their 180 grain bullets. Different bullets, barrels, rifles may be finicky liking just one bullet, powder or primer combination. I found barrel rifling twist to be a significant factor as many factory rifles use twists that are too slow. I just ordered a new Pac-Nor polygonal rifled barrel in .308 Winchester with a 1:10” twist, as that twist will stabilize the heaviest bullets and shoot the lightest phenomenally.

Below are illustrations of just how groups can change with different components. Group A was shot with the same rifle and polygonal barrel as Group B. The only change was that Group B used a Winchester Small Rifle Primer, and group A used a Federal 205M Small Rifle Match primer. The red diamonds are .5” along the sides. I only shoot 10 shot groups to provide a larger chronograph data sample.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/223Groups_zpsd4bb0518.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/223Groups_zpsd4bb0518.jpg.html)

There isn’t any mystery to it, just a lot of experimenting, reading every source of information available, and shooting. Here’s a helpful article on the .308 Winchester: http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/308win/

I know you can do it. Shooting is similar to playing a musical instrument, it takes time to learn the discipline and develop muscle memory. What I learned from working several years at a public firing range is that isolating yourself from muzzle blast is important, wear ear plugs and muffs both. That helps reduce the flinchies. When I shot competitive metallic silhouette matches, I learned to conquer recoil of handguns that could make my hand bleed, this is the greatest obstacle - to ignore recoil and just let it happen. My new .308 Winchester barrel will be equipped with a Vais muzzle brake because less recoil allows me more shots without fatigue. Muzzle blast exposure, including from adjacent shooters, and recoil can cause a form of concussion. If you develop a headache after a shooting session, or feel wrung out - that's concussion.

6mmintl
09-03-2013, 10:51 AM
Seat the bullet out longer, Rem's are notorious for long throats.

Take firing pin apart and polish pin, and re-oil with light weight oil.

Action bedded?

Exodus343
09-03-2013, 10:58 AM
Seat the bullet out longer, Rem's are notorious for long throats.

Take firing pin apart and polish pin, and re-oil with light weight oil.

Action bedded?

no
all I have is a HS Sendero stock with aluminium block

nothing else has been done to the rifle, everything is stock

CSACANNONEER
09-03-2013, 11:06 AM
When csacannoneer said 0.6 moa is a screamer he was talking about 1000 yard 50 bmg matches not 100 yards.


An angular measurement is still an angular measurement no matter what the linear distance is. I realize there are 10 times as many conditions between 100 yards and 1000 yards but, that's the only difference.

Exodus343
09-03-2013, 11:25 AM
An angular measurement is still an angular measurement no matter what the linear distance is. I realize there are 10 times as many conditions between 100 yards and 1000 yards but, that's the only difference.

Hey Greg, once you are finished moving I could really use your mentoring for match shooting and reloading :D

I'll bring some japanese soda to keep you happy :p



*edit

or even japanese beer, since I turn 21 soon hehehe

M1Kev
09-03-2013, 12:22 PM
Gale McMillan (of McMillan stocks, barrel manufacturer, and competitive shooter with many titles under his belt in Benchrest, High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore to name a few) says that break in procedures are a marketing scheme. He even claims to know the guy who started it. Not sure if it is true, but McMillan makes some mighty fine sticks and has for years. I would have to say I trust his advice.

Sources
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

Untamed1972
09-03-2013, 12:50 PM
But I shoot better with a bipod on prone? :confused:

Sorry for forgetting the details
I'm shooting a 20" R700 LTR with 168 hpbt factory seconds (most likely Sierra) at 100 yards

And my rifle is capable of sub-MOA

I prefer laying the rifle over a backpack vs. a bipod when in the prone.

From there prolly need to work on your breathing control. Only take the shot at the botto of your exhale and watch your trigger control.

Wrangler John
09-03-2013, 6:10 PM
Gale McMillan (of McMillan stocks, barrel manufacturer, and competitive shooter with many titles under his belt in Benchrest, High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore to name a few) says that break in procedures are a marketing scheme. He even claims to know the guy who started it. Not sure if it is true, but McMillan makes some mighty fine sticks and has for years. I would have to say I trust his advice.

Sources
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

And they would all be wrong too.

bubbapug1
09-03-2013, 6:18 PM
There is So much misinformation in this thread you'll never get to your goal if you listen to 1/10 of it.

Read "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Harold Vaughn to get an idea what screws up a guns accuracy.

Stay away from Amax'a unless you want your group opening up even more. The construction of an AMAX does not lend itself to tight groups, and if it did match shooters would use them and they don't. You will see bergers, Sierra SMK's, and Nosler CC's, but Amax are not on the firing line, not the ones with polymer tips anyway.

Shti can the bipod and get a good front and rear rest.

Buy some SMK's or nosler CC's and load them up. Your powder is fine for 308. While the powder valley 175's and 168's look good who knows why Sierra trashed them. It could be because the jackets were out of spec, it could be a lot of things, but for some reason QC flunked them out of the production runs.

Try to Load up some very tightly controlled rounds by weighing the powder for each load individually. Set the bullet carefully and not in a progressive unless all stations are being used. The shell plate can and does tip resulting in variations of the OAL, and hence the pressure for that load.

Go to Angeles early before the wind picks up and shoot the gun free recoil to allow it to vibrate freely shot to shot. Stick a recoil pad behind the stock so the scope doesn't smack you in the face. Be sure not to jerk the trigger. Do 5 dry fires first with your crosshairs on the target to see how your pull is. If the gun moves at all during dry fire, you need to continue until its stops moving. Hold the thumb behind the trigger guard and the trigger finger on the trigger. Those two digits are the only thing human touching the gun, and don't grab the trigger guard that hard either!! Do not grasp the stock in any manner. Do not impede the first 1" of travel of the rifle back off the sandbags.

Try at least 3 or four different loads to see which works best. One load may just be the right velocity to allow the gun to have little variation in its harmonic frequency from shot to shot to allow you a tight group....or maybe not. I am not familiar with your model gun....but I do have Tikka Tactical which shoots sub moa from group to group consistently if you do your part. However, it only does it in free recoil and that's not real world unless your shooting f class or benchrest.

If that doesn't get you closer, you at least removed 50% of the variables such as a bad hold, inconsistant velocities, bad bullets, and the #1 probable cause, the wind. Wind has more effect on group sizes than you may realize....try to shoot in steady conditions.

Than go to a few Burbank rifle club or Santa margarita gun club matches and meet some real verified marksman/gun makers who really know and have proven their competence and let them lead you to the path of true gun ammo enlightenment. Most others are arm chair shooters who have NO proven track record or scores to prove they can really produce the goods... And some of these arm chair shooters who have vented their spleen on you in this thread are actually too cowardly to go to a scored event for fear of being outed as simple blowhards or worse.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr177/bubbapug1/DSC00951.jpg (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/bubbapug1/media/DSC00951.jpg.html)

LynnJr
09-03-2013, 6:56 PM
Still mad that I(and a load of other people) recommended someone learn fundamentals on a .22lr bro?

Not at all.If you have limited funds and can't get to a range and you want to plink by all means shoot your 22.If however you want to shoot 1000 yards with your 308 leave your 22 at home and shoot your 308.This isn't that hard to understand for most people.
Now as why your posts are some of the worst I have ever seen on the internet.

I have read several of your posts and they don't have any value to them or they or dead wrong with regards to there facts.You have posted over 12,000 times but you should spend a little bit of time actually doing some reading or shooting so you could give a halfway decent response.You don't understand headspace yet you want to give out accuracy advice and this to any accuracy
minded shooter should be well understood before giving out advice.I am not saying to stop posting I am saying if you don't know ask rather than giving out bad info.

Wrangler John
A very good post and of course you are correct.

Csacannoneer
An angular measurement is still an angular measurement no matter what the linear distance is. I realize there are 10 times as many conditions between 100 yards and 1000 yards but, that's the only difference.

We definitely don't agree on this.Yes if you could simply extend your 100 yard groups to 1000 yards in a linear fashion a 0.6 would be 6+ at 1000 yards but there is a thing called DISPERSION that throws a monkey wrench into just multiplying by 10 or adding some wind.
My rifles will shoot 1/4 moa at 100 yards way more times than they will shoot 2.5 inches at 1000 yards and that is exactly why we compete at 1000 yards and not 100 yards.

Exodus343
If I was further south we could do all the swaps I mentioned in minutes not hours then spend a few hours developing your load for accuracy.I have test beds for the short action 700 and the long action 700 that take the shooter out of the accuracy equation and let you see what your barreled action is capable of.This seems like a drastic step but it is actually a huge time and money saver in that it lets you know right away if your barrel is a tomato stake or if it's a shooter.

If the ammo needs to be seated long it would be seated long then I would show you how to measure it so a reamer with a shorter freebore could be used on a set-back so you don't have magazine issues.A simple barrel setback does however cost money so I would only recommend something like that only if needed and only if your best groups were small enough to warrant the expense.
As Wrangler John posted 1/2 moa is hunting good not benchrest good so if after all the steps were taken your gun still shot 5/8 groups I wouldn't waste any more time or money with a barrel like that.I would pull it off and sell it with as low a round count on it as possible and move up to a custom barrel.

I would also put Wrangler John on my people to follow there advice list as this is the first post from him that I have read and it tells it like it is.

Merc1138
09-03-2013, 7:07 PM
Not at all.If you have limited funds and can't get to a range and you want to plink by all means shoot your 22.If however you want to shoot 1000 yards with your 308 leave your 22 at home and shoot your 308.This isn't that hard to understand for most people.
Now as why your posts are some of the worst I have ever seen on the internet.

I have read several of your posts and they don't have any value to them or they or dead wrong with regards to there facts.You have posted over 12,000 times but you should spend a little bit of time actually doing some reading or shooting so you could give a halfway decent response.You don't understand headspace yet you want to give out accuracy advice and this to any accuracy
minded shooter should be well understood before giving out advice.I am not saying to stop posting I am saying if you don't know ask rather than giving out bad info.

Wrangler John
A very good post and of course you are correct.

Csacannoneer
An angular measurement is still an angular measurement no matter what the linear distance is. I realize there are 10 times as many conditions between 100 yards and 1000 yards but, that's the only difference.

We definitely don't agree on this.Yes if you could simply extend your 100 yard groups to 1000 yards in a linear fashion a 0.6 would be 6+ at 1000 yards but there is a thing called DISPERSION that throws a monkey wrench into just multiplying by 10 or adding some wind.
My rifles will shoot 1/4 moa at 100 yards way more times than they will shoot 2.5 inches at 1000 yards and that is exactly why we compete at 1000 yards and not 100 yards.

Exodus343
If I was further south we could do all the swaps I mentioned in minutes not hours then spend a few hours developing your load for accuracy.I have test beds for the short action 700 and the long action 700 that take the shooter out of the accuracy equation and let you see what your barreled action is capable of.This seems like a drastic step but it is actually a huge time and money saver in that it lets you know right away if your barrel is a tomato stake or if it's a shooter.

If the ammo needs to be seated long it would be seated long then I would show you how to measure it so a reamer with a shorter freebore could be used on a set-back so you don't have magazine issues.A simple barrel setback does however cost money so I would only recommend something like that only if needed and only if your best groups were small enough to warrant the expense.
As Wrangler John posted 1/2 moa is hunting good not benchrest good so if after all the steps were taken your gun still shot 5/8 groups I wouldn't waste any more time or money with a barrel like that.I would pull it off and sell it with as low a round count on it as possible and move up to a custom barrel.

I would also put Wrangler John on my people to follow there advice list as this is the first post from him that I have read and it tells it like it is.

LOL, so it's not the .22lr bit, it's the headspace thing you're still butthurt over? Issues, you've got them. Of course there you go again obsessing over my post count when you're the only one that seems to give a crap about it.

thegiff
09-03-2013, 7:30 PM
Different strokes, barrel break-in yes/no and so on.Factory barrels seem to need it, I've only had two custom barrels and both shot great groups right from the beginning with no fouling. I clean every 300 to 400 rounds or so, and leave dry, and really prefer to shoot a fouled barrel.

Plenty of great advice and some really suspect advice.

:oji:So, to summarize and give my 2cents...

1) Shooter new to highpower precision rifle, wants perfect groups from the get-go with little practice.
a. More practice, then a lot more practice. Example: I have 6000 rounds out (I’m sure others have a lot more) through my precision rifles, and I’m still learning. And I get sub .5moa groups some of the time, if I concentrate. It takes a lot of mental effort to do consistently. My average lately seems to be around .5moa, my best was .22moa, and nobody ever talks about the ¾ or 1moa groups, they blame it on a “flier.” They are not fliers, they are evidence of a need to practice more and concentrate more and follow the fundamentals on every shot.

Directed practice is even better. Clinics are great, I've attended a couple and they are really helpful. Having an good, experienced shooter to coach you would be really helpful also.

2) Shooting:
a. Shot prep, is parallax perfect?
b. Position good? Both shooter and rifle.
c. Load and make ready
d. NPOA (confirm b.)
e. Control breathing, aim and take the shot
f. Follow through (call the shot and verify)
g. Repeat from b.

3) Unverified rifle/ammo
a. Rifle probably needs to be tuned, adjusted or modified. Example: my Remington 700 came with an HS precision stock that had an aluminum bedding block. The shots walked, as much as 1.5” at 100yd until it was bedded. My other is a Surgeon based custom, it shot great from the beginning.
b. Ammo is not known good. At minimum, shooter needs to use off the shelf match ammo, for the .308, federal gold medal is the standard but I’m sure others are good too. FYI, Federal loads to a velocity, that velocity is 2600fps, and they have used three powders to achieve their legendary accuracy. It happens that 2600fps hits the biggest, fattest accuracy node on the majority of .308 rifles out there.
c. Further advice: For reloading, the ammo can be tuned to the rifle. Follow the OCW method, it has worked for me 3 times. Reason is that finding a good load doesn’t take long, and more time and effort can be spent on shooting. Problem is, 1) a. needs to be settled first. Example: I helped a guy a month or so ago, he was using the OCW method and had tried over more than 200 rounds to find his load. His rifle used a manners mini chassis (an aluminum bedding block, similar to but superior I think to the HS Precision bedding block). Anyway, we determined that it needed to be skim bedded, and the best groups went from 1moa to .25moa.
d. Easiest to verify if a known good shooter shoots a couple of groups with the unverified rifle/ammo.
4) Shooter said that he was fighting the rear bag.
a. Shooter needs to practice more, see 1) a., and follow previous recommendations on NPOA.
5) Unverified shooter
a. Shooter should try and find someone willing to let him use their known good equipment for a couple of group shots. Many at a tactical rifle match would probably be willing to help out.

killshot44
09-03-2013, 9:27 PM
This is going to a great thread by page five....

"Why won't my stock factory Rem700 shoot 1/2moa after I've been behind it three whole times?"

CobraRed
09-03-2013, 9:44 PM
This is going to a great thread by page five....

"Why won't my stock factory Rem700 shoot 1/2moa after I've been behind it three whole times?"

Because of your headspace

Exodus343
09-03-2013, 9:44 PM
This is going to a great thread by page five....

"Why won't my stock factory Rem700 shoot 1/2moa after I've been behind it three whole times?"

advice would be nice also ;)

HK Dave
09-03-2013, 10:03 PM
There isn't anything mystical about shooting .5" groups or smaller. In fact, I consider .5" accuracy at 100 yards the minimum viable accuracy for varmint hunting. I do nothing but build up varmint rifles and hunt ground squirrels.

There are a few personal rules I maintain when developing a new rifle and working up a load. Today, many factory rifles and ammunition are quite capable of rivaling a high end varmint rifle, which is good thing. Experimentation is necessary and experience points us to the direction to take.

Break in the barrel. Some wags say this isn't necessary, but they are wrong. One gun writer wrote an entire article about not being able to see the difference in barrel finish through a bore scope while breaking in a rifle. Yet he could not see the microscopic and internal stress changes that occurred as the process progressed. New barrels need to be cleaned before the first shot, really cleaned, to remove manufacturing gunk and proof load residue ( if any) and any residual lapping compound. Then the bore needs to be lubricated with an anti-fouling compound. I have used Grafoil, Lock-Ease, Lyman's Moly Bore Paste, Holland's Witches Brew Bore Lube, and most recently Hornady's First Firing New Gun Bore & Action Conditioner. I fire one shot, clean and relube and fire again, repeating the process for five shots. Then increase to 5 shots between cleaning and relubing for 20 shots. Finally, I run 10 shots between each cleaning and lubing cycle. At some point between 30 and 50 shots there is usually a significant reduction in group size and a drop in bore fouling. This is the break in point. Most fouling is coming from the chamber throat, where copper is liberated from the bullet and deposited down the bore as a plasma. Once the throat is "polished" (actually its eroded, smoothing the chamber reamer marks) fouling is reduced. Never overheat a barrel, keep it cool by allowing time between shots.

From then on I lube the barrel before shooting or hunting with one or another bore lubes. I never shoot a dry bore, even with the polygonal rifled barrels.

Mounting a scope is as important as any other part of building a rifle. The base (s) must precisely fit the contour of the receiver, without any misalignment that can introduce stress in the base or rings relative to the scope tube. The rings must align centered with each other when attached to the base. I use Ken Farrell bases for the most part because they are set up for epoxy bedding to the action. This does not glue the base to the receiver, the epoxy adheres just to the base, filling in any space(s) between the action and base, keeping it dead flat. Two piece bases must be checked to be certain that they are in perfect alignment with each other and level across the top, otherwise they must be shimmed or fitted. I use Burris Signature Zee Rings with the bushings to reduce stress on the scope tube and torque all screws using a precision torque gauge. I never use thread locking compound, but clean the screws and lightly oil them to provide accurate torque settings - they never come loose.

Bottom metal or action screw tension has a profound effect on grouping as does stock bedding. Below is an illustration of how action screw torque effects grouping. This is a three screw Savage action, but the process transfers to the two screw Remington action that can bend if bedding is off and the screws not properly set. I settled on 35-35-30 in lb front, mid and rear screws.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/ActionScrewTension.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/ActionScrewTension.jpg.html)

Load development. If at first you don’t succeed try again. The go to powders for the .308 Winchester seem to be IMR 4064 and IMR 4895, with H-4895 (not exactly the same powder) also mentioned. Nosler recommends Viht N140 for use with their 150/155 grn bullets, and BL-C(2) with the 165/168, and H-380 with their 180 grain bullets. Different bullets, barrels, rifles may be finicky liking just one bullet, powder or primer combination. I found barrel rifling twist to be a significant factor as many factory rifles use twists that are too slow. I just ordered a new Pac-Nor polygonal rifled barrel in .308 Winchester with a 1:10” twist, as that twist will stabilize the heaviest bullets and shoot the lightest phenomenally.

Below are illustrations of just how groups can change with different components. Group A was shot with the same rifle and polygonal barrel as Group B. The only change was that Group B used a Winchester Small Rifle Primer, and group A used a Federal 205M Small Rifle Match primer. The red diamonds are .5” along the sides. I only shoot 10 shot groups to provide a larger chronograph data sample.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/Wrangler-John/223Groups_zpsd4bb0518.jpg (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/Wrangler-John/media/223Groups_zpsd4bb0518.jpg.html)

There isn’t any mystery to it, just a lot of experimenting, reading every source of information available, and shooting. Here’s a helpful article on the .308 Winchester: http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/308win/

I know you can do it. Shooting is similar to playing a musical instrument, it takes time to learn the discipline and develop muscle memory. What I learned from working several years at a public firing range is that isolating yourself from muzzle blast is important, wear ear plugs and muffs both. That helps reduce the flinchies. When I shot competitive metallic silhouette matches, I learned to conquer recoil of handguns that could make my hand bleed, this is the greatest obstacle - to ignore recoil and just let it happen. My new .308 Winchester barrel will be equipped with a Vais muzzle brake because less recoil allows me more shots without fatigue. Muzzle blast exposure, including from adjacent shooters, and recoil can cause a form of concussion. If you develop a headache after a shooting session, or feel wrung out - that's concussion.

Wow I had no idea that the torque on an action could affect grouping to that extent. This actually might explain a few things. Going to have to play around with this.

Exodus343
09-03-2013, 10:06 PM
Wow I had no idea that the torque on an action could affect grouping to that extent. This actually might explain a few things. Going to have to play around with this.

anyone got a Torque wrench I can borrow?

Stockton
09-03-2013, 10:32 PM
Well here are a few tips. From my knowledge of owning and shooting an LTR, my experience is they are out of box moa rifles at 100yds (with match grade ammo). Unless you have something seriously wrong with you or rifle I would say that ammo is the first to get rid of.

Torque your stock, base, and rings to proper specs.
Use match grade ammo
Lose the bipod (for now) and use a sand bag
Dry fire a lot.(Find an inanimate object to put scope on and work on fundamentals)
Have fun!

LOL...cause non of that made any sense and now you are looking for a torque wrench. Ok!

Wheeler Fat Wrench or Seekonk if you cannot get a loaner.

jonzer77
09-03-2013, 10:35 PM
tagged for the lulz

LynnJr
09-03-2013, 10:39 PM
LOL, so it's not the .22lr bit, it's the headspace thing you're still butthurt over? Issues, you've got them. Of course there you go again obsessing over my post count when you're the only one that seems to give a crap about it.

Merc1138
Your post count continues to grow and once again you have absolutely nothing to offer to this post or any other that I have read.
If you need something explained just ask.Unfortunately the OP here has a gun not shooting well. Can you offer up anything to help him and not just your post count? Oh yeah my butt doesn't hurt but if it did I would seek out a doctor.You are not a doctor nor a shooter.

Exodus343
A slave stock like I described removes the shooter from the equation.Most shooters here have never seen one or even know what it does or how it works.
It holds the barreled action in a block and returns to battery with each shot.once set-up you can shoot it without any adjustments.For developing loads it is extremely helpful.

Here are a few things you can try for free.

You said you upgraded to a Sendero stock.Run a sheet of ordinary binder paper under the barrel.It should not hit anything until it reaches the recoil lug.Fold it and try it again.The more clearance you have the better.
Next break out some allen wrenches.Grab the barrel and stock at the same time without any real pressure and loosen each action bolt and re-tighten them.Do you feel alot of movement in the barrel and stock?
Next time you are at the range bring two business cards with you.Pull the gun out of the stock and put a business card under the front receiver ring and re-assemble the rifle.Does it shoot better, worse or no change.
Switch scopes with someone who has a gun shooting well but only after you remove your base and re-install it making sure everything is good and tight.
As posted earlier put your front bag closer to the action than to the tip of the forend.
Take a strip of newspaper 3/8 inch wide and 6 inches long and put it under the bolt handle of your empty gun.Push down on the bolt handle but don't force it down and see if the newspaper will slide right out.
Fire the gun with and empty chamber apply the same amount of pressure and see if the newspaper will slide right out or does it tear?
Post your results and let me know what scope you are using.

Exodus343
09-03-2013, 10:48 PM
Merc1138
Your post count continues to grow and once again you have absolutely nothing to offer to this post or any other that I have read.
If you need something explained just ask.Unfortunately the OP here has a gun not shooting well. Can you offer up anything to help him and not just your post count? Oh yeah my butt doesn't hurt but if it did I would seek out a doctor.You are not a doctor nor a shooter.

Exodus343
A slave stock like I described removes the shooter from the equation.Most shooters here have never seen one or even know what it does or how it works.
It holds the barreled action in a block and returns to battery with each shot.once set-up you can shoot it without any adjustments.For developing loads it is extremely helpful.

Here are a few things you can try for free.

You said you upgraded to a Sendero stock.Run a sheet of ordinary binder paper under the barrel.It should not hit anything until it reaches the recoil lug.Fold it and try it again.The more clearance you have the better.
Next break out some allen wrenches.Grab the barrel and stock at the same time without any real pressure and loosen each action bolt and re-tighten them.Do you feel alot of movement in the barrel and stock?
Next time you are at the range bring two business cards with you.Pull the gun out of the stock and put a business card under the front receiver ring and re-assemble the rifle.Does it shoot better, worse or no change.
Switch scopes with someone who has a gun shooting well but only after you remove your base and re-install it making sure everything is good and tight.
As posted earlier put your front bag closer to the action than to the tip of the forend.
Take a strip of newspaper 3/8 inch wide and 6 inches long and put it under the bolt handle of your empty gun.Push down on the bolt handle but don't force it down and see if the newspaper will slide right out.
Fire the gun with and empty chamber apply the same amount of pressure and see if the newspaper will slide right out or does it tear?
Post your results and let me know what scope you are using.

will post results when I get to the range next time

Exodus343
09-03-2013, 10:49 PM
LOL...cause non of that made any sense and now you are looking for a torque wrench. Ok!

Wheeler Fat Wrench or Seekonk if you cannot get a loaner.

no it all makes sense
I am just trying to be independent and not needing to rely on others constantly


but yeah I was looking into the Borka one

ar15barrels
09-03-2013, 10:50 PM
no it all makes sense
I am just trying to be independent and not needing to rely on others constantly

Come out to the Caprc rimfire match this weekend.
You can learn a lot...

Exodus343
09-03-2013, 11:09 PM
Come out to the Caprc rimfire match this weekend.
You can learn a lot...

Can't be able to make that one
have work and they are really nazis when it comes to taking days off


Randall, please let me know when the dates are for the spring Clinic A so I can request that day off :)

will try to request a day off over a weekend for one of Caprc's future matches soon, when is the next match in fall?

ar15barrels
09-03-2013, 11:26 PM
when is the next match in fall?

September 22nd is the next CAPRC centerfire match.

Stockton
09-03-2013, 11:34 PM
no it all makes sense
I am just trying to be independent and not needing to rely on others constantly


but yeah I was looking into the Borka one


Actually there is so much in here that supersedes you and the capabilities of that LTR its mind boggling. You have an 800$ rifle thats factory designed to be a lightweight tactical rifle capable at best MOA consistently. Now you can remove yourself from the equation of actually driving it but shows nothing of your ability to actually shoot it. It will however absolutely give you great load development and let you know if your barrel is bent!.

Take a sec to break it down logically:

Is my rifle in perfect working condition? Torqued...No
Is my scope base and rings properly installed? Torqued....No
Is my ammo consistent? Factory seconds...No
Is my shooting platform stable as can be? Bipod...No
Are my fundamentals locked in? No
Is this a 1/2 moa out of the box rifle? No
Can this rifle do 1/2 moa consistently? Yes...bed it, change the barrel, trigger job, 175gr HPBT over 43gr Varget CCI BR primers Lapua Brass set to jump, and lock in your fundamentals of shooting.

If he or his data is still around the internet, look up LTR David. Everything you want or eventually will do to your LTR and ammo, he did it.

Going to a shoot with Randal is a great way to go.

hambam105
09-04-2013, 2:31 AM
I don't know what I am doing wrong
I load my bipod
"..load my bipod.." Am I the only one who knows what this term means? And the OP complains about not being able to shoot half inch groups? Good Luck.

ar15barrels
09-04-2013, 2:43 AM
"..load my bipod.." Am I the only one who knows what this term means?

Don't worry, you are probably not the only one.
A lot of other people here probably don't know what it means either.

hambam105
09-04-2013, 3:04 AM
Whewww! For a minute there I thought I was on a Virtual Shooting forum.

LynnJr
09-04-2013, 5:39 AM
Exodus343
Ask this poster how many world record setting benchrest rifles have there scopes and action torque settings done with a torque wrench.


Actually there is so much in here that supersedes you and the capabilities of that LTR its mind boggling. You have an 800$ rifle thats factory designed to be a lightweight tactical rifle capable at best MOA consistently.

Did Remington tell you this or is this your opinion?


Now you can remove yourself from the equation of actually driving it but shows nothing of your ability to actually shoot it. It will however absolutely give you great load development and let you know if your barrel is bent!

When you remove the shooter from the equation you find out the rifles capabilities.It would prove or disprove your moa capability at best response above.It would also let the shooter who has virtually no experience learn when his skill level matched that of his equipment something he wouldn't otherwise know.It wouldn't let you know if your barrel is bent even though most are.

Take a sec to break it down logically:

Is my rifle in perfect working condition? Torqued...No

How much affect does torque have on a rifle in perfect working condition? and how do you know or who told you?

Is my scope base and rings properly installed? Torqued....No
Is my ammo consistent? Factory seconds...No
Is my shooting platform stable as can be? Bipod...No
Are my fundamentals locked in? No
Is this a 1/2 moa out of the box rifle? No

Again who told you this Remington? or a WAG?

Can this rifle do 1/2 moa consistently? Yes...bed it, change the barrel, trigger job, 175gr HPBT over 43gr Varget CCI BR primers Lapua Brass set to jump, and lock in your fundamentals of shooting.

If he or his data is still around the internet, look up LTR David. Everything you want or eventually will do to your LTR and ammo, he did it.

Going to a shoot with Randal is a great way to go.

Stockton
09-04-2013, 7:47 AM
sorry double post....stupid phone!

Stockton
09-04-2013, 7:48 AM
Ill answer that when he tells you how many world record benchrest rifles were an LTR.

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 7:54 AM
PM lynn jr.

He'll get you sorted out.

Well, the first thing you need to do is win a night-force scope.

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 7:59 AM
Varget isn't the only .308 powder, its just the most consitaint trendy and popular right now .

That fixed, varget is what I use. I hate the stuff. It meters for ****.

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 8:05 AM
One other secret..........99+% of the people on here can't shoot 1/2MOA.

I have guns that have shot better than 1/4 MOA and I shoot my rifles 3-4 times a month and I have to work hard, get lucky with the conditions and the stars have to align to shoot two groups in a row into 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.


Yes that^ I have to be in the zone to shoot sub MOA. If I have been shooting steel plates or shotgun or drawing pistols that day, forget it without a good period of time to settle down. Some people can, but I'm not one of therm......yet :D

NorCalFocus
09-04-2013, 9:03 AM
That fixed, varget is what I use. I hate the stuff. It meters for ****.

Hahaha. Yeah I bought some for my test loads to see if its hype or what.

DPmax
09-04-2013, 9:48 AM
As a check, completely ignore horizontal spread, only measure vertical... now where are you at? I was taught that during rifle break in and load development just go with vertical spread. That may not be the current fashion, but it has always worked for me.

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 9:51 AM
I don't think I noticed this being brought up in the thread but OP, how is your cheek weld?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2

Exodus343
09-04-2013, 9:54 AM
I don't think I noticed this being brought up in the thread but OP, how is your cheek weld?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2

I am using a Triad tactical stock pack

Cheek weld is good, but I still NEED to work on it just like everything else

CSACANNONEER
09-04-2013, 10:54 AM
I don't think I noticed this being brought up in the thread but OP, how is your cheek weld?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2

I'll have to teach him to shoot free recoil and he won't need a check weld at all.

GM4spd
09-04-2013, 11:42 AM
In over 50 years of shooting I had one rifle that I could shoot 5
shots into .5 inch @ 100 or 1" @200, it was a stock pre 64 Model
70 Winchester in 220 Swift,those were hand loads on a calm day,
factory ammo was good for 3/4". There was nothing done to the rifle
to accurize that I could see,like bedding etc. I think shooting 1/2"
is extremely rare on any day and most rifles and shooters are not
up to it . Pete

russ69
09-04-2013, 11:57 AM
In over 50 years of shooting I had one rifle that I could shoot 5
shots into .5 inch @ 100 or 1" @200, it was a stock pre 64 Model
70 Winchester in 220 Swift,those were hand loads on a calm day,
factory ammo was good for 3/4". There was nothing done to the rifle
to accurize that I could see,like bedding etc. I think shooting 1/2"
is extremely rare on any day and most rifles and shooters are not
up to it . Pete

This should sum up this thread. A factory rifle with blem bullets, just doesn't add up to 1/2 inch groups in most cases. Remingtons's custom shop only guaranteed their custom rifles to shoot under an inch, IIRC. That was for a 5 shoot group, which is not enough shots to be statistically significant.

Exodus343
09-04-2013, 1:26 PM
I'll have to teach him to shoot free recoil and he won't need a check weld at all.

Thanks Greg
do you know when we can get started? :)

russ69
09-04-2013, 2:19 PM
I'll have to teach him to shoot free recoil and he won't need a check weld at all.

Free recoil a 308? Many have tried, and many have failed....

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 2:44 PM
Free recoil a 308? Many have tried, and many have failed....

Good point, he should start him with a .300WM.

CSACANNONEER
09-04-2013, 3:29 PM
Good point, he should start him with a .300WM.

Finally, there's a purpose for my M77 in 300WM. I've only fired two rounds out of it and then went back to shooting 50s since I couldn't handle the recoil of the 300WM.

CSACANNONEER
09-04-2013, 3:34 PM
Thanks Greg
do you know when we can get started? :)

Sorry, I'm going to be hard to do anything with for the time being. My new living situation is going to keep me on the property most evenings and weekends. I did check on my old range from when I lived there about 8 years ago and, it doesn't look like it'll be too hard to clear enough brush to get 100 yards again. So, maybe in a couple months, I'll have a decent bench up there and it'll be cleared out enough to play on the weekends.

HK Dave
09-04-2013, 3:36 PM
Sorry, I'm going to be hard to do anything with for the time being. My new living situation is going to keep me on the property most evenings and weekends. I did check on my old range from when I lived there about 8 years ago and, it doesn't look like it'll be too hard to clear enough brush to get 100 yards again. So, maybe in a couple months, I'll have a decent bench up there and it'll be cleared out enough to play on the weekends.

Calguns clean up party? ;)

CSACANNONEER
09-04-2013, 3:56 PM
Calguns clean up party? ;)


I'm not going to spend a lot of time brush clearing and making new noises until I fill an A tag or two.:D Then, after A zone season is quail season. It sure sucks that I feel the need to keep things quite at home so I can hunt there.:p The real bummer is that when I fill a tag, I have to load the buck up in a truck and take it into Thousand Oaks to find someone to validate the tag. The post office is probably the closest but, I doubt the postmaster there even knows that he's authorized to sign a tag.

postal
09-04-2013, 4:03 PM
Hahaha. Yeah I bought some for my test loads to see if its hype or what.

There can be velocity variations from lot to lot, but usually not too bad... If you do your part with quality reloading, you can get a pretty decent ES/SD.

The main reason it's popular is because it's very temperature stable. Very little vel change from cold to hot weather.

I hear h 4895 was supposed to be suitable for 308, and very temp stable as well, though I hadnt tried it.

postal
09-04-2013, 4:08 PM
As a check, completely ignore horizontal spread, only measure vertical... now where are you at? I was taught that during rifle break in and load development just go with vertical spread. That may not be the current fashion, but it has always worked for me.

HUH?

Sure if there's a wind- especially a changing wind.... But I've seen barrels whip and string in shots in any direction - vertical, diagonal and horizontal.

Why is it you seem to think a barrel only whips in the vertical?

During load development with favorable wind conditions, I look for the tightest round groups which shows I'm not at a peak in a node flinging bullets in a string pattern.

Look at the pics from Wrangler John. Some groups are vert, some go a bit diag, and one is horizontal.

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 4:09 PM
Finally, there's a purpose for my M77 in 300WM. I've only fired two rounds out of it and then went back to shooting 50s since I couldn't handle the recoil of the 300WM.

PM Lyn Jr. I read that as a young child, he perfected the free recoil .300WM technique.

Exodus343
09-04-2013, 4:11 PM
Sorry, I'm going to be hard to do anything with for the time being. My new living situation is going to keep me on the property most evenings and weekends. I did check on my old range from when I lived there about 8 years ago and, it doesn't look like it'll be too hard to clear enough brush to get 100 yards again. So, maybe in a couple months, I'll have a decent bench up there and it'll be cleared out enough to play on the weekends.

yea no problem
I have fall semester right now

hopefully around the winter time?

postal
09-04-2013, 4:20 PM
Calguns clean up party? ;)

Exodus is bringing Kirin!:D

postal
09-04-2013, 4:25 PM
Free recoil a 308? Many have tried, and many have failed....

Silly me.....

I thought the OP wanted to learn how to actually shoot....

Not just pull a trigger on a sled gun or some such impractical nonsense.:p

CSA- Can ya post up a pic of your tree stand with a sled gun setup? :D

postal
09-04-2013, 4:33 PM
Well, the first thing you need to do is win a night-force scope.

I dont recall NF being so generous. Usually they have certificates for 50% off retail.

However USO usually steps up to the plate with 2 or 3 scopes, loopy throws in a mk4, Vortex threw in a viper pst and a razor red dot...

No, I dont have a uso, nf 50%, or loop mk4.... but I do have a vortex razor red dot from the prize table.

I need to work on my free recoil!:43:

Hey Randall.... do you teach free recoil in Clinic "A"? LOLOLOLLL!L!L!!!!! (uh... no.... No he doesnt)

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 4:35 PM
I dont recall NF being so generous. Usually they have certificates for 50% off retail.

However USO usually steps up to the plate with 2 or 3 scopes, loopy throws in a mk4, Vortex threw in a viper pst and a razor red dot...

No, I dont have a uso, nf 50%, or loop mk4.... but I do have a vortex razor red dot from the prize table.

I need to work on my free recoil!:43:

I shouldn't even be in this thread, I don't even have a gun anymore :(

Exodus343
09-04-2013, 4:38 PM
Exodus is bringing Kirin!:D

lol I am?
when I turn 21 then MAYBE

unless you prefer Sapparo ;)

Fjold
09-04-2013, 5:34 PM
PM Lyn Jr. I read that as a young child, he perfected the free recoil .300WM technique.

I was shooting my 22.250 free recoil and switched over to my 375 H&H and did the same thing without thinking about it. I won't do that again.

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 5:37 PM
I was shooting my 22.250 free recoil and switched over to my 375 H&H and did the same thing without thinking about it. I won't do that again.

We have all had great ideas that didn't turn out so hot, I remember as a kid I swam to the bottom of the pool with a garden hose in my mouth so I could breath underwater. Doh!

thegiff
09-04-2013, 6:41 PM
I was shooting my 22.250 free recoil and switched over to my 375 H&H and did the same thing without thinking about it. I won't do that again.

Wow! I thought scope eye from a .270 would be bad! Goes to show that training gets ingrained really quickly. Probably no scope on it though, but real close to breaking the clavicle.

Funny story with some relevance to training, some neighbor kids got RC cars for Christmas. Really fast gas ones. The older one runs his around for a while, gives the control to a 10 year old, who plays with the controller first. Little kid flips a switch on it when screwing around with the controller, then starts running the car around for 5 minutes.

Older kid gets controller back, takes off and goes to make a left turn, it turns hard right and slams into a fence. Luckily chain link, was a nice soft catch relatively speaking. Finds little kid flipped the reverse switch. Flips it back and has a good time for the next tank of gas.

Gives it back to the little kid, who takes off, and goes to make a left turn, and wham! Back into the same spot on the same fence. He learned to drive it backwards! He had a hard time learning how to drive it right with the switch flipped to the correct direction.

milotrain
09-04-2013, 7:10 PM
That fixed, varget is what I use. I hate the stuff. It meters for ****.

Shut up!!!! People love Verget, people buy Varget, and they leave all the good .223-.308 powders that I want to use alone. Guys Varget is the best and only powder. Promise.


Don't make me get out the puppies.
http://duckhillkennels.smugmug.com/Other/Gundogs/i-Hbx85Sh/0/M/Axel-M.jpg

CSACANNONEER
09-04-2013, 7:14 PM
CSA- Can ya post up a pic of your tree stand with a sled gun setup? :D
I'm too fat to climb a tree. It wouldn't be fair to the tree. Besides, I prefer spot and stalk. It just takes me a while to get my front and rear rests aligned when I'm ready to make a kill but, I like the extra challenge.
lol I am?
when I turn 21 then MAYBE

unless you prefer Sapparo ;)
If that's what you can steal from your parents, it'll do but, I do prefer something with a bit more body.

postal
09-04-2013, 7:19 PM
LLOLOLLLLLOLLOLOLLL!!!!!!

five.five-six
09-04-2013, 7:21 PM
Shut up!!!! People love Verget, people buy Varget, and they leave all the good .223-.308 powders that I want to use alone. Guys Varget is the best and only powder. Promise.


Don't make me get out the puppies.
http://duckhillkennels.smugmug.com/Other/Gundogs/i-Hbx85Sh/0/M/Axel-M.jpg

I am down to a few pounds and dog or no dog, I am not buying it again.

postal
09-04-2013, 7:23 PM
Puppy!!!!!!

X-NewYawker
09-04-2013, 8:54 PM
Yes. Number one: Lose BIPOD. No one gets their best groups off a bipod

Exodus343
09-04-2013, 9:30 PM
So then bipod is just for shooting steel plates then?

ar15barrels
09-04-2013, 11:45 PM
I'm not going to spend a lot of time brush clearing and making new noises until I fill an A tag or two.:D Then, after A zone season is quail season. It sure sucks that I feel the need to keep things quite at home so I can hunt there.:p The real bummer is that when I fill a tag, I have to load the buck up in a truck and take it into Thousand Oaks to find someone to validate the tag. The post office is probably the closest but, I doubt the postmaster there even knows that he's authorized to sign a tag.

Let me know if you need help filling a tag...

ar15barrels
09-04-2013, 11:47 PM
I hear h 4895 was supposed to be suitable for 308, and very temp stable as well, though I hadnt tried it.

4895 is an excellent 308 powder.
I watched Pryde fire 5 rounds over the chronograph with an ES of around 7fps if i remember correctly.
That's ES, not SD...

ar15barrels
09-04-2013, 11:49 PM
Hey Randall.... do you teach free recoil in Clinic "A"? LOLOLOLLL!L!L!!!!! (uh... no.... No he doesnt)

Free recoil is a benchrest technique best left to benchrest guns.
We teach how to shoot in practical field situations, not how to shoot from a bench.

ar15barrels
09-04-2013, 11:52 PM
I do prefer something with a bit more body.

Does your wife know you talk about her that way?

ar15barrels
09-04-2013, 11:54 PM
So then bipod is just for shooting steel plates then?

A bipod is the most convenient field-expedient shooting rest.
Almost all other rests will not be attached to the gun so there is more to carry and setup.
Front and rear bags on a bench are more stable, but require less skill.
Build your skills with a bipod and a rear bag and you can shoot from almost any type of rest.

Wrangler John
09-05-2013, 1:29 AM
Yes. Number one: Lose BIPOD. No one gets their best groups off a bipod

If you go back to my original post all the groups, including the .206" group were fired with a Harris Bipod. I do all load development with Harris Bipods because that is what I will be shooting from my portable field bench; bipod in front and rabbit ear bag in the rear.

Bang! Splat! "Uh, Kimo Sabe, that little rat die like frog in blender! What that about 300 yards?"

"Yes Tonto, I ranged it at 330 yards."

"How you do that? I mean, hanging half off bench, with bipod in 20 mile per hour gusts and sleet blowing the snot out our noses?"

" 'Mushin no shin', Tonto. To free the mind forgetting all technique, to allow the self to become the shot free of all personal influences. I am become the rifle and it knows the wind as a part of itself, it sees its target as a lover sees its mate, it knows when to fire, and I am surprised when it does. My subconscious is the rifleman, I am successful because I am nothing yet aware of everything as part of the shot. It just happens."

What is a bipod to such a state of mind?

When we consider the bipod a disadvantage, already we have missed.

LynnJr
09-05-2013, 5:32 AM
PM Lyn Jr. I read that as a young child, he perfected the free recoil .300WM technique.

Actually I shoot my 300 Ackley which is the 300 Weatherby Magnum Case Ackley improved free recoil.You probably don't know what Ackley Improved is but the chambering holds significantly more powder than a 300 Win Mag and was the most dominant cartridge in longrange benchrest up until 3 years ago.

You can ask csacannoneer how the 50 bmg's shooting all the records are fired but in case he doesn't read this far they shoot free recoil as well.Al of the worlds most accurate rifles from a Calfee 22 to a Dierks 50 bmg are shot free recoil.
That you don't know that amazes no one.

Stockton
Peter White from Sacramento won the 6oo Yard Nationals with a 700 does that count? I know my father set the lightgun score record with one at 600 yards but that was beat in 2013 by Keith Cotrell and the targets were posted here.Again very few here thought those targets very good which speaks volumes.

Randall
Your posts show you as the voice of reason and someone who has been at it for awhile.Your patience after reading all that has been written is commendable.I need to work on mine as I suffer fools very poorly.I guess that recognizing that is a start.

Exodus343
If csacannoneer is near you and willing to mentor you take him up on the offer.

LynnJr
09-05-2013, 6:02 AM
As a check, completely ignore horizontal spread, only measure vertical... now where are you at? I was taught that during rifle break in and load development just go with vertical spread. That may not be the current fashion, but it has always worked for me.

This is spot on correct when developing your powder charge at 100 yards.Ignore your horizontal.

HUH?
Sure if there's a wind- especially a changing wind.... But I've seen barrels whip and string in shots in any direction - vertical, diagonal and horizontal.

Maybe you could post on how you changed your load to correct for horizontal and diagonal stringing?

Why is it you seem to think a barrel only whips in the vertical?

I think a barrel whips around in vertical diagonal horizontal rotationally and gets longer and shorter.I also think it expands and forms a deformation wave.
But to answer your question the only whip we are interested in is vertical whip.

During load development with favorable wind conditions, I look for the tightest round groups which shows I'm not at a peak in a node flinging bullets in a string pattern.

By definition the top of the node wouldn't be flinging bullets.Beyond the top of the node your bullets would fling but I agree you are looking for the smallest round cluster.

NiMiK
09-05-2013, 8:42 AM
Tried a sled instead of bipod and bag just to see what is really happening?

bombadillo
09-05-2013, 8:46 AM
Forgive me, but who coined the term "Free Recoil" and when did it start becoming a catchphrase in standard shooting talk?

CSACANNONEER
09-05-2013, 9:06 AM
You can ask csacannoneer how the 50 bmg's shooting all the records are fired but in case he doesn't read this far they shoot free recoil as well.Al of the worlds most accurate rifles from a Calfee 22 to a Dierks 50 bmg are shot free recoil.


Well, except for Lee R.'s rail gun "Pandora", no 50 shooter shoots true free recoil. Randy Dierks probably comes the closest but, AFAIK, he doesn't shoot much anymore. He doesn't even look through his scope when pulling the trigger. However, most of us don't shoot like Randy. We do tend to not crowd our rifles when shooting off the bench though. I know that I keep the stock tight to my shoulder and use the pistol grips on both my 50s while pulling the trigger. But, I don't worry much about a tight cheek weld. However, shooting off the ground with a bipod is a different story. There, free recoil isn't really an option.

Stockton
09-05-2013, 9:47 AM
No it does not count. It was not an out of the box rifle and you know it so just quit. You wanna put unicorns in this guys head about being able to achieve 1/2moa accuracy from his LTR by using bench rest discipline to get it. Ridiculous pipe dreams. He's better off preloading his bipod while trying to free recoil simultaneously.

ar15barrels
09-05-2013, 10:29 AM
Your patience after reading all that has been written is commendable.
I need to work on mine as I suffer fools very poorly.
I guess that recognizing that is a start.

I got banned a lot of times for not suffering fools.
I quit caring about them after that.
It's much easier to ignore them after you let-go...

bubbasks
09-05-2013, 10:34 AM
Forgive me, but who coined the term "Free Recoil" and when did it start becoming a catchphrase in standard shooting talk?

Couldnt tell ya but ive always learned it as an artillery hold. Not till here have i heard it referred to as free recoil

russ69
09-05-2013, 11:39 AM
,,.Al of the worlds most accurate rifles from a Calfee 22 to a Dierks 50 bmg are shot free recoil...

Serious question: If a 308 shoots fine in free recoil, why is everybody shooting 30BRs and other shortened 308s in score shooting.

milotrain
09-05-2013, 12:27 PM
Serious question: If a 308 shoots fine in free recoil, why is everybody shooting 30BRs and other shortened 308s in score shooting.

I'd guess it's mostly the fad. Salazar talks about the .308,.30-06, and 6XC in this (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html) article. In midrange competition out of a data set of nearly 1k round per gun the spread is .3%, in longrange competition out of a data set of nearly 500 rounds per gun the spread is 1.6%.

While 1.6% can easily be the difference between winning a state championship and not placing in the top three most people will never be in that level of competition.

TMB 1
09-05-2013, 12:31 PM
I think if you have a rifle load combo capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards. You should be able to pick up your rifle and do the hoki poki between shots and still shoot the group. Shouldn't you?

milotrain
09-05-2013, 12:34 PM
If you can shoot 1/2" groups then yes.

russ69
09-05-2013, 1:13 PM
I'd guess it's mostly the fad. Salazar talks about the .308,.30-06, and 6XC in this (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html) article...

I was talking mostly about Light Varmint for score, not highpower. The short 30s have been at the top of the chart for some time. To quote 6mmbr.com "The 30BR now dominates 100, 200, and 300-yard Benchrest Score Competition.". It's clear that if a 308 could shoot free recoil in a LV then there would be no need for a shortened 30 caliber. My understanding was that shooting LV 308 free recoil was for the few and the brave.

milotrain
09-05-2013, 2:01 PM
I was talking mostly about Light Varmint for score, not highpower. The short 30s have been at the top of the chart for some time. To quote 6mmbr.com "The 30BR now dominates 100, 200, and 300-yard Benchrest Score Competition.". It's clear that if a 308 could shoot free recoil in a LV then there would be no need for a shortened 30 caliber. My understanding was that shooting LV 308 free recoil was for the few and the brave.

I get what you are saying, and knew you weren't talking about highpower. It just seems to me that many people think there is more accuracy to be gained by a round than there actually is. There was a rush on 6mm Hagar because Carl did so well with it, but there is a lot to be said for the fact that he's a great shooter.

If all the good shooters shoot the same thing then it will dominate the field, however of course all the good shooters wouldn't shoot the same thing unless it was fairly good.

killshot44
09-06-2013, 1:05 AM
Front and rear bags on a bench are more stable, but require less skill.

Now Randall....gotta call you out on this one, come on up and shoot F-Open and we'll see if you can make it as easy as you say.

Crap, I forgot - you're banned from SacValley....:D

ar15barrels
09-06-2013, 1:16 AM
you're banned from SacValley

No I'm not.
Don't confuse me with Lynn.

LynnJr
09-06-2013, 5:43 AM
Serious question: If a 308 shoots fine in free recoil, why is everybody shooting 30BRs and other shortened 308s in score shooting.

Russ
The 30BR does everything the 308 does except it does it with much less powder.Powder is BTU and BTU is what eats up barrels.With the 30BR you get better accuracy less recoil and more barrel life.
Its like asking why shoot a prairie dog with a 7mm magnum when a 22-250 kills them just as well.

Stockton
So the 700 with a new barrel will shoot to a national championship victory and we are here discussing a 700 remington action but we shouldn't discuss its potential.I hear ya why would we do that?

a

LynnJr
09-06-2013, 5:48 AM
Actually getting banned from Sac Valley was a good thing.We draw benches now and follow the rules which is something I've never seen done at Sac Valley.
I shot there for 12 years and the stories I could tell you about that place would melt your ears.
One of the best ranges west of the Mississippi run by complete idiots but Bob Dorton doesn't fall into that cluster muck.

Stockton
09-06-2013, 8:18 AM
Stockton
So the 700 with a new barrel will shoot to a national championship victory and we are here discussing a 700 remington action but we shouldn't discuss its potential.I hear ya why would we do that?


The discussion is not about 700 actions and their potential. The discussion is about 1-Remington 700 LTR Rifle out of the box and the shooter cannot obtain 1/2MOA accuracy. You are comparing his rifle and its ability to win world class bench rest matches in its existing form.


So either you are back pedaling or just lost at your point of disagreeing that his out of the box LTR needs nothing more than:
-Torquing the stock to action properly 65inch pounds according to engineers at HS Precision who designed the stock for the LTR
-Torquing the scope base according to the engineers who designed the base
-Torquing the rings according to the engineers who designed them
-Acquiring Match Grade Ammo or Hand loading
-Move rifle off the bipod to a more stable platform
-Work on his fundamentals of shooting
-All to achieve, at best, consistently 1 MOA, which is what is guaranteed by remington law enforcement division for this rifle.

So why would you start with deducting him from the equation before you have even set a baseline with the rifle by properly setting it up (Torque Specs)? To show him he's the problem? Really?

Lastly, I don't dispute any of your methods in obtaining accuracy. However you are discounting the facts of the rifle and its proper set up before you take the action out, put it in a vise, and tie a string to the trigger. Once you change a single part on that rifle to increase accuracy it is no longer an OUT OF THE BOX LTR which is what he has. Is it?

jetman624
09-06-2013, 11:09 AM
-Torquing the stock to action properly 65inch pounds according to engineers at HS Precision who designed the stock for the LTR
-Torquing the scope base according to the engineers who designed the base
-Torquing the rings according to the engineers who designed them


Is this a comprehensive list of things that should be done to an "out of the box" rifle to help "tighten it up", or are there additional steps that should be taken?

ExtremeX
09-06-2013, 12:13 PM
Is this a comprehensive list of things that should be done to an "out of the box" rifle to help "tighten it up", or are there additional steps that should be taken?

That’s not really a comprehensive list…

I always remove the barreled action from the stock when I get a new rifle… I just like to check it out and visually inspect everything. Then re-install and torque it back down myself. It’s something you have to do anytime you remove the action from the stock.

Out of the box most of these rifles don’t come with scope base and rings, so you would have to install them anyway. Even if it did come with a scope base, I would remove and re-install just to make sure it was done right.

Exodus343
09-06-2013, 1:41 PM
That’s not really a comprehensive list…

I always remove the barreled action from the stock when I get a new rifle… I just like to check it out and visually inspect everything. Then re-install and torque it back down myself. It’s something you have to do anytime you remove the action from the stock.

Out of the box most of these rifles don’t come with scope base and rings, so you would have to install them anyway. Even if it did come with a scope base, I would remove and re-install just to make sure it was done right.

I had Nathan at Short Action Precision torque my mount and rings

so that part of the variable is out, now the stock I need to torque it again

Stockton
09-06-2013, 1:43 PM
Not comprehensive to me at all. Just basic for the rifle. The rest as ExtremeX has stated.

jetman624
09-06-2013, 1:48 PM
Well would someone mind posting a list of everything that should be done to a gun right out of the box to help insure you are getting the most out of it?

ExtremeX
09-06-2013, 1:49 PM
I had Nathan at Short Action Precision torque my mount and rings

so that part of the variable is out, now the stock I need to torque it again


If you had someone install it and they did a good job great, but a torque wrench is a tool worth owning. It’s nice not having to rely on others for basic tasks like mounting scope base, rings, action screws...

For small screws and hardware I prefer a non-clicker style.

My recommendation:
http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-TW-1-Torque-Wrench/dp/B000NVCI1U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378500412&sr=8-1&keywords=park+torque+wrench

thegiff
09-06-2013, 3:10 PM
Well would someone mind posting a list of everything that should be done to a gun right out of the box to help insure you are getting the most out of it?

Nathan would do the job right, he has the tools and knowledge. A lot of gunshop "smiths" out there who install stuff for their customers don't know what they are doing. Case in point, I was at the range a while back and a guy is holding his pistol more and more gangsta style as he is shooting. I asked him what was up with that, he said he was keeping the crosshairs level. Hmmmm. His scope was loose, and was rotating, he had it installed by the kid behind the counter at the store he bought it from.

For what it is worth on an out of the box rifle and scope package.

I use Mountz torque tools, $300 each new, we have a bunch at work and I bought my own. Turns out they are available used on ebay for a lot less. But for most anyone the simplest easiest tool out there is the Borka torque wrench.

Remove the action, clean everything, put it back together.
Torque the action screws.
Install the scope base, rings, and scope, again all torqued to spec. I would check that the base is aligned properly, and if not mount using bedding compound.
Clean the barrel with some dry patches before taking the first shot.
Go shooting.

If the shots walk after this, then skim bed, and go shoot it again. Mine walked really bad until it was bedded, and it had the aluminum v block in it. I've also seen another similar rifle with a different bedding block that walked, and it quit walking when it was skim bedded.

AlliedArmory
09-06-2013, 5:56 PM
Just throwing in my 2c here without reading all of the posts.

Just make sure the stock, rings, base etc are all torqued to spec.

Use commercial match ammo. 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match is a solid baseline more than capable that 1/2 moa.

Some people feel more comfortable with a bipod (myself included). Absolutely nothing wrong with using it.

I use a cheap Caldwell rear bag. Turn the bag CW/CCW to adjust your POA and to sturdy the rifle.

LynnJr
09-06-2013, 8:43 PM
The discussion is not about 700 actions and their potential. The discussion is about 1-Remington 700 LTR Rifle out of the box and the shooter cannot obtain 1/2MOA accuracy. You are comparing his rifle and its ability to win world class bench rest matches in its existing form.


So either you are back pedaling or just lost at your point of disagreeing that his out of the box LTR needs nothing more than:
-Torquing the stock to action properly 65inch pounds according to engineers at HS Precision who designed the stock for the LTR
-Torquing the scope base according to the engineers who designed the base
-Torquing the rings according to the engineers who designed them
-Acquiring Match Grade Ammo or Hand loading
-Move rifle off the bipod to a more stable platform
-Work on his fundamentals of shooting
-All to achieve, at best, consistently 1 MOA, which is what is guaranteed by remington law enforcement division for this rifle.

So why would you start with deducting him from the equation before you have even set a baseline with the rifle by properly setting it up (Torque Specs)? To show him he's the problem? Really?

Lastly, I don't dispute any of your methods in obtaining accuracy. However you are discounting the facts of the rifle and its proper set up before you take the action out, put it in a vise, and tie a string to the trigger. Once you change a single part on that rifle to increase accuracy it is no longer an OUT OF THE BOX LTR which is what he has. Is it?

Stockton
I think if you re-read my earlier posts I never said he would get benchrest accuracy from a factory gun of any make.You are reading into this post something I have never said.
IF he is willing to do some work on this gun it could not only shoot 1/2 moa at 100 but it could do alot better than that was my point.
As to your list of torque specs you don't need to be an engineer to figure them out as most torque specs are available online for each size and grade of fastener.
His accuracy problem is not torque related unless something is falling off the rifle in question.
If he torques the action and the gun shoots better his stock needs bedding.I posted earlier how he could loosen and tighten the two action bolts and feel for any flex.Now before anyone wants to know how this works the human hand can easily detect 0.001 of movement and that is about the maximum he would want.
On the ammo this is likely were his accuracy problem actually is.
As to the Remington guarantee it only gives the major size not the minor size so in this example it means very little.
As to why I would deduct him from the equation that is a no brainer.He has very little shooting experience and needs to learn the fundamentals so we are taking all of that out of the equation.As we don't know if the action and scope are falling off we also take them out of the equation.We have never heard anything about his trigger which might be 5-8 pounds of pull and we would take that out of the equation as well.
Once all of this is removed from the equation we can now make the best possible ammunition for the barreled action in question to determine its capability.
It might be a 15/16 rifle at 100 yards and it might be a 5/16 rifle but as it stands now we don't know.
In accuracy shooting any time you can take away the human factor you should.
To your last concern if he barreled action is tested and found out to be a 15/16 moa set-up we need not waste any more time with this rifle as it sits.
If however we find out it shoots 5/16 moa we can now add back each part individually and find out how much each piece means to the rifles accuracy.
If most of the problem is his rings he can bed the base and loctite it in place.He can then open up his rings and bed the scope to the rings for a stress free mounting all of which he can do at home cheaply.
If it turns out his trigger pull is so heavy he is jerking the gun to get it to fire he knows he is looking at a new Jewell,Timney or Rifle Basix trigger.
And so on and so on.

Stockton
09-07-2013, 3:15 AM
Stockton
I think if you re-read my earlier posts I never said he would get benchrest accuracy from a factory gun of any make.You are reading into this post something I have never said.
IF he is willing to do some work on this gun it could not only shoot 1/2 moa at 100 but it could do alot better than that was my point. And being upfront with him about a 1MOA rifle without any work is more attainable than 1/2MOA was deceiving somehow?
As to your list of torque specs you don't need to be an engineer to figure them out as most torque specs are available online for each size and grade of fastener.YOU wanted know how and where I came up with torquing
His accuracy problem is not torque related unless something is falling off the rifle in question. You are kidding right?
If he torques the action and the gun shoots better his stock needs bedding.I posted earlier how he could loosen and tighten the two action bolts and feel for any flex. Hmmm.... if that happens he achieved the proper basic setup of his rifle as designed didn't he? Bedding is not a part of the out of box config is it?Now before anyone wants to know how this works the human hand can easily detect 0.001 of movement and that is about the maximum he would want.
On the ammo this is likely were his accuracy problem actually is.
As to the Remington guarantee it only gives the major size not the minor size so in this example it means very little.
As to why I would deduct him from the equation that is a no brainer.He has very little shooting experience and needs to learn the fundamentals so we are taking all of that out of the equation.As we don't know if the action and scope are falling off we also take them out of the equation.We have never heard anything about his trigger which might be 5-8 pounds of pull and we would take that out of the equation as well.
Once all of this is removed from the equation we can now make the best possible ammunition for the barreled action in question to determine its capability.
It might be a 15/16 rifle at 100 yards and it might be a 5/16 rifle but as it stands now we don't know.
In accuracy shooting any time you can take away the human factor you should.
To your last concern if he barreled action is tested and found out to be a 15/16 moa set-up we need not waste any more time with this rifle as it sits.
If however we find out it shoots 5/16 moa we can now add back each part individually and find out how much each piece means to the rifles accuracy.
If most of the problem is his rings he can bed the base and loctite it in place.He can then open up his rings and bed the scope to the rings for a stress free mounting all of which he can do at home cheaply.
If it turns out his trigger pull is so heavy he is jerking the gun to get it to fire he knows he is looking at a new Jewell,Timney or Rifle Basix trigger.
And so on and so on.

I reread your posts and I still maintain my standpoint. I believe you need to reread your own posts.
The HS precision stock has an aluminum block in it that was designed so bedding would not be necessary but also requires torquing it to spec in order for it to work as designed. YOU asked why and where did I hear that. I already told you. Same for a scope base and rings. So why did you ask him to ask me as if it wasn't true or necessary? It does not have to be falling off to shift under recoil and produce a POA/POI difference. So once again you are failing to ensure the out of the box design is correct. How about being honest with him on his rifle as is, its accuracy, components, and his abilities before leading him on a chase for bench rest world records potential? And if you cannot help him with the basic proper configuration with his rifle "as is" why even help? Once again, all other info I am not disputing in obtaining accuracy but you still fail to help in setting up that LTR in its proper out of the box configuration as designed.....First.

russ69
09-07-2013, 7:28 AM
...The HS precision stock has an aluminum block in it that was designed so bedding would not be necessary but also requires torquing it to spec in order for it to work as designed...

Well, that's the idea anyway. The problem is that the REM700 receiver tubes are not always straight after heat treatment. Most rifles would do better with a skim coat of bedding to account for any warping of the receiver.

Stockton
09-07-2013, 1:18 PM
Always the next step to bed no doubt.

After a heads up on Lynn's negative background I degress any further positive discussion.

postal
09-07-2013, 1:55 PM
Oh... come on people.....

We've all heard about the many, many rifles out there- that shoot WORSE after bedding regardless of stock/pillars/chassis/blocks....

Oh wait.... That's something we never hear about....

So... *maybe* bedding wont make any difference at all.... but usually it does... and is better than without bedding.

dlouie87
09-07-2013, 2:03 PM
Why do these precision threads always turn into a pissing match?

Obviously the shooter has unrealistic expectations for the STOCK LTR rifle with factory second projectile for reloads.

I mean, I'm not in a position to tell him how to spend his money but he has already started a thread on getting a large caliber AR as well. If he was serious about precision/long range shooting or just wanted to get better groups, he should stick with one platform and learn how to shoot on that platform before jumping to another platform. I'm sure there will be another thread about why one can get 1/2 MOA from their semi-auto and it'll be another thread like this. He would benefit so much more by spending the money on bedding the receiver, purchasing better reloading components, etc. More importantly, spend more time behind the rifle to get comfortably and proficient with the fundamentals.

postal
09-07-2013, 2:06 PM
^^^

HUH?!

Sound advice.... on a thread like this? That's not what we've come to expect from the calguns community...:D

dlouie87
09-07-2013, 4:21 PM
^^^

HUH?!

Sound advice.... on a thread like this? That's not what we've come to expect from the calguns community...:D

hahaha.... more like a rant. I would like to see how many of these threads pop up a month. :facepalm:

thegiff
09-07-2013, 4:29 PM
No reason to chime in on all of these types of threads, after a short while they are all the same.

Time to wait for the OP to do some of the recommended actions and have him post his results.

postal
09-07-2013, 5:32 PM
hahaha.... more like a rant. I would like to see how many of these threads pop up a month. :facepalm:

You've been here plenty long enough. You should know that most questions that come up, come up about twice a month, or at least once a month, or every other month....

and we rehash the same info everytime.

Kestryll asked about a scope for a 22 about a month or 6 weeks ago... that thread went away with a lot of info. Earlier today is another poster with "what scope for a 22?"

Same stuff over and over...

So, the only thing thats new, is us saying the same stuff for info on the thread, and kickin lynnjr around just to pass the time to make it interesting.:chris:

:D:D

edit----

There are other forums I go to, where the same questions are asked over and over, and the standard reply is "search for it- We're not going to spoon feed you."

However, here at calguns, the search feature is worthless, and more annoying and a waste of time, as it is trying to find usefull info- so that doesnt happen here. We just rehash the same info because of it.

LynnJr
09-07-2013, 9:48 PM
I reread your posts and I still maintain my standpoint. I believe you need to reread your own posts.
The HS precision stock has an aluminum block in it that was designed so bedding would not be necessary but also requires torquing it to spec in order for it to work as designed. YOU asked why and where did I hear that. I already told you. Same for a scope base and rings. So why did you ask him to ask me as if it wasn't true or necessary? It does not have to be falling off to shift under recoil and produce a POA/POI difference. So once again you are failing to ensure the out of the box design is correct. How about being honest with him on his rifle as is, its accuracy, components, and his abilities before leading him on a chase for bench rest world records potential? And if you cannot help him with the basic proper configuration with his rifle "as is" why even help? Once again, all other info I am not disputing in obtaining accuracy but you still fail to help in setting up that LTR in its proper out of the box configuration as designed.....First.

Stockton there is no gentle way to say this.I have worked on plenty of H-S Precision stocks and they all need skim bedding.Again if you re-read my posts You are not understanding them.
I also told him to check with a piece of newspaper the bolt handle clearance.I posted that because 85% of the time the handle cut out is too small.
If the rifle is properly bedded into the stock a torque setting of +- 50% would not show up on the target.
Again had you actually re-read my posts you have seen my simple test for checking for bedding issues.
My advice is spot on correct you have just failed to read it or re-read it.I gave him a list of things to check for and 1/2 moa at 100 yards will not win you anything in Benchrest as those types of groups are considered terrible.
You seem to accept that his gun can never shoot better than the 1 inch guarantee.I am telling him how to test it to see if that is true or false and if false what his next few steps to correct it might be.
You conclude it can only shoot 1 inch period.
I happen to have access to one of those rifles straight out of the box.Would you change your opinion if I shot it under 3/4 moa at 100 yards in front of you? or would that be a trick?

Exodus343
09-07-2013, 10:45 PM
Why do these precision threads always turn into a pissing match?

Obviously the shooter has unrealistic expectations for the STOCK LTR rifle with factory second projectile for reloads.

I mean, I'm not in a position to tell him how to spend his money but he has already started a thread on getting a large caliber AR as well. If he was serious about precision/long range shooting or just wanted to get better groups, he should stick with one platform and learn how to shoot on that platform before jumping to another platform. I'm sure there will be another thread about why one can get 1/2 MOA from their semi-auto and it'll be another thread like this. He would benefit so much more by spending the money on bedding the receiver, purchasing better reloading components, etc. More importantly, spend more time behind the rifle to get comfortably and proficient with the fundamentals.


yeah I'm ditching the AR10
I really did some deep thinking and I am going to have my action trued and blueprinted by Randall, possibly change my barrel, not sure yet
about to buy some Factory 168 SMKs from another calgunner, and going to buy a better shooting rest

practice practice practice

ar15barrels
09-07-2013, 10:47 PM
yeah I'm ditching the AR10
I really did some deep thinking and I am going to have my action trued and blueprinted by Randall, possibly change my barrel, not sure yet
about to buy some Factory 168 SMKs from another calgunner, and going to buy a better shooting rest

practice practice practice

Come out to the 22 match tomorrow and we can get you squared away behind your rifle...

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5020

Exodus343
09-07-2013, 10:50 PM
Come out to the 22 match tomorrow and we can get you squared away behind your rifle...

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5020

I can't :( lol
have work, and can't take the day off tomorrow


I will take a day off for October's match
when is the date?

ar15barrels
09-07-2013, 11:34 PM
I will take a day off for October's match
when is the date?

Next centerfire matches are September 22nd and then October 20th.

Exodus343
09-07-2013, 11:39 PM
Next centerfire matches are September 22nd and then October 20th.

ok I will try to take one of those days off (most likely yes for either one since it's two weeks notice)

should I bring my rifle and my stuff?

HK Dave
09-08-2013, 8:09 AM
Randall prefers you show up naked. ;)

Exodus343
09-08-2013, 9:51 AM
Randall prefers you show up naked. ;)

LOL

russ69
09-08-2013, 1:07 PM
yeah I'm ditching the AR10
I really did some deep thinking and I am going to have my action trued and blueprinted by Randall, possibly change my barrel, not sure yet
about to buy some Factory 168 SMKs from another calgunner, and going to buy a better shooting rest...

As LynnJr said and it's been my experience also that a skim bed for the H-S V-blocks is a good idea. If it was my rifle, I would have it skim bedded, buy a good trigger and see how it shoots with the right load. Then, if it wasn't good enough, I'd think about a new barrel.

postal
09-08-2013, 3:40 PM
ok I will try to take one of those days off (most likely yes for either one since it's two weeks notice)

should I bring my rifle and my stuff?

Bring everything you have. What you dont have, you can borrow. Rifle/ammo, eyes, ears, bipod, rear bag, CHAMBER FLAG, Shooting mat if you have one.

But yeah, nekked might be interesting.

Probably the sept match, my brother and I will be going, and can bring a chronogragh- so you can build out some charts. Some guys have ballistic aps on their phone, if we get through the chrono, they can get a basic chart which will help you shoot this match.

Freq18Hz
09-14-2013, 8:46 PM
OP: I had the same rifle you have, was shooting around 1 MOA.

I got rid of it, and got a Tikka lite in .30-06.

It's a 6.5lb rifle before scope, so it kicks like a mule, but I can shoot it sub MOA all day long.

Then I saw my friends G.A. precision crusader. Guaranteed to shoot 3/8ths MOA. I haven't gotten to opportunity to take mine out yet, but he seems to shoot sub moa pretty easily with non match ammo.

I'm of the school that you should learn to shoot well, and then buy nice gear. Practicing your trigger control, shooting from a rest, offhand, prone, bipod etc are all important. As is dialing in your ammo etc. In this case however, It could just be that you just need a nicer rifle.

-Freq

remington
09-17-2013, 10:12 AM
Ditto on match ammo. I use the Hornady Match 155 or 168 AMAX match. If the rifle likes it, which both 700s do, then I reload to replicate. But at least I know I can do it and so can the rifle.

I can only test to 100yrds though. Cant find a good place to reach out in So Cal.

ar15barrels
09-17-2013, 11:22 AM
I can only test to 100yrds though. Cant find a good place to reach out in So Cal.

Angeles Ranges lets you put paper targets at 200yds on weekends and at 300yds on weekdays.

five.five-six
09-17-2013, 11:59 AM
Angeles Ranges lets you put paper targets at 200yds on weekends and at 300yds on weekdays.

If I recall correctly, point blank for a .308 is 285 yards.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk 2

HK Dave
09-17-2013, 2:29 PM
Angeles Ranges lets you put paper targets at 200yds on weekends and at 300yds on weekdays.

That 300 yards is a ***** to walk. :P

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 2:35 PM
That 300 yards is a ***** to walk. :P

is it?
cause I plan to walk it out there soon...

if only they give you a lift out there

kentactic
09-17-2013, 3:01 PM
Shoot from prone in the dirt. Lose the rear bag. Shoot .22 a bit before getting on the big bore. Then dry fire a bit before you load up. If your feeling tense waiting for the trigger to break its bad.

A fluted barrel is mostly for looks. It actually reduces ridgitity and that means less accurracy. It can help disipate heat a tad faster which is good with a big power scope so you don't see heat waves as bad. But bore temp affects accuracy zero.

Have you tried multiple loads? How did you settle on this load if you can't get tight groups? Loading your own especially for a new shooter is going to hinder more then help. Most bolt guns shoot Federal Gold Medal Match well so just shoot that and practice shooting. The 168gr sierra is good to 600 yards.

If you want Info from people whi know what they are talking about go to snipershide.com

milotrain
09-17-2013, 3:17 PM
Kentactic,

I agree with everything you said but there is plenty of dubious info on snipershide and there are a lot of knowledgeable shooters here. Signal to noise ratio seems pretty much the same in my (limited) experience.

I really don't understand the fluted barrel craze right now. It certainly looks trick but I don't think I'd do anything to a barrel that looked good but hurt accuracy, and a pile of the good barrel makers advise against doing it.

kentactic
09-17-2013, 3:24 PM
Kentactic,

I agree with everything you said but there is plenty of dubious info on snipershide and there are a lot of knowledgeable shooters here. Signal to noise ratio seems pretty much the same in my (limited) experience.

I really don't understand the fluted barrel craze right now. It certainly looks trick but I don't think I'd do anything to a barrel that looked good but hurt accuracy, and a pile of the good barrel makers advise against doing it.

Fair enough. I've just always had great feedback. And some of the best in the business are on snipershide.

Agreed ill never own a fluted anything lol.

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 3:33 PM
ok guys so I've been snapping in
now the one thing I think I'm doing wrong is my cheek rest

am I SUPPOSE to put the entire force of my head down on the stock? or just hold it there while I shoot
since if I hold it the I won't be putting any pressure down on the stock
however if I DO put my head down the POA shifts dramatically and when I breathe in and out I'm not on the same POA

ExtremeX
09-17-2013, 4:13 PM
You figure out how to work that parallax adjustment on ur scope correctly?

While it doesn't fix a bad cheek weld, it will help mitigate / minimize the amount of POA/POI shift when moving around.

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 4:14 PM
You figure out how to work that parallax adjustment on ur scope correctly?

While it doesn't fix a bad cheek weld, it will help mitigate / minimize the amount of POA/POI shift when moving around.

yeah I think I got parallax down
the thing is when I breathe in and out with my face hard on the cheek rest when I exhale it's aiming a tad off to where I started

but when I don't put my face hard on the rest (pretty much holding my neck in mid air which I know is wrong) when I exhale it's on the same spot

I'll be shooting on Thursday and monday so it's all about trial and error and getting more practice out of the way

Merc1138
09-17-2013, 4:22 PM
ok guys so I've been snapping in
now the one thing I think I'm doing wrong is my cheek rest

am I SUPPOSE to put the entire force of my head down on the stock? or just hold it there while I shoot
since if I hold it the I won't be putting any pressure down on the stock
however if I DO put my head down the POA shifts dramatically and when I breathe in and out I'm not on the same POA

That's part of why your breathing matters. You have a natural pause without any muscles being strained once you exhale, use that time to shoot.

kentactic
09-17-2013, 4:25 PM
Ya^^^ at the bottom of your breath. (Exhale...theres a pause, squeeze trigger).

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 4:27 PM
Yea I do squeeze the trigger right when im about to be at the bottom of my breath

but I feel like it's my face pushing the rifle off a tiny bit
I must not be behind my rifle right

Merc1138
09-17-2013, 4:28 PM
Yea I do squeeze the trigger right when im about to be at the bottom of my breath

but I feel like it's my face pushing the rifle off a tiny bit
I must not be behind my rifle right

Have a .22lr? Go take an appleseed class(you could use a 5.56, or even a .308, but that'd get pretty expensive).

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 4:33 PM
Have a .22lr? Go take an appleseed class(you could use a 5.56, or even a .308, but that'd get pretty expensive).

need to get tech sights lol.... :facepalm:

ExtremeX
09-17-2013, 4:40 PM
need to get tech sights lol.... :facepalm:

You don't need tech sights to do an appleseed... I got my 10/22 setup with a sling and a Vortex 1-4x scope. Run what you like, or what you have.

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 4:41 PM
oh yeah
I need a sling then....
my marlin 795 is bone stock

postal
09-17-2013, 5:16 PM
Everyone does their own thing with a cheekweld.

Some top notch shooters have a really firm cheekweld. I remember seeing one guy that would start his head high, push into it and drop his head into position and grab skin rolling up towards his eye, and he knew that was where he wanted to be.

Me... I have a light touch on the cheekweld.

You may want to try different things and you might need a stock pack with different thicknesses of foam or mouse pad under it to change the height to get it to fit you right.

As to Snipershide... Been a member there for a long time. There is a lot of traffic over there. Some are really great shooters- all of them act like the best.

Merc1138
09-17-2013, 5:21 PM
Everyone does their own thing with a cheekweld.

Some top notch shooters have a really firm cheekweld. I remember seeing one guy that would start his head high, push into it and drop his head into position and grab skin rolling up towards his eye, and he knew that was where he wanted to be.

Me... I have a light touch on the cheekweld.

You may want to try different things and you might need a stock pack with different thicknesses of foam or mouse pad under it to change the height to get it to fit you right.

As to Snipershide... Been a member there for a long time. There is a lot of traffic over there. Some are really great shooters- all of them act like the best.

Right, what works for one person isn't necessarily going to be the best for another. The reason I mentioned appleseed, even if I personally don't agree with everything they teach, is that the basic concepts of fundamentals and understanding what is gained by consistency is legit. From there someone can take the knowledge and work out their own exact fit, technique, etc.

ExtremeX
09-17-2013, 5:29 PM
OP… Sometimes I think you are overthinking things man…

Just get behind the rifle, and get comfortable…

Must make sure your scope, ring height, eye relief is all setup the way you like to give you a comfortable consistent cheek weld when on the rifle. Like postal said… whatever works for you.

Getting all that setup to MY liking and getting comfortable behind my own rifle is the ticket for me… more comfortable I am, the more I can focus on the task of just breaking the shot.

postal
09-17-2013, 5:34 PM
Right, what works for one person isn't necessarily going to be the best for another. The reason I mentioned appleseed, even if I personally don't agree with everything they teach, is that the basic concepts of fundamentals and understanding what is gained by consistency is legit. From there someone can take the knowledge and work out their own exact fit, technique, etc.

Agree- everyone needs solid fundamentals- then go from there to find whats best for them.

Appleseed is a great way to do that cheap.

thegiff
09-17-2013, 5:37 PM
So a couple weekends back, based on something Fjold said earlier in this thread...

<snip>
One other secret..........99+% of the people on here can't shoot 1/2MOA.

I have guns that have shot better than 1/4 MOA and I shoot my rifles 3-4 times a month and I have to work hard, get lucky with the conditions and the stars have to align to shoot two groups in a row into 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.
<endsnip>

I thought I would try to shoot 2 groups or more in a row at less than 1/2moa. Postal was there checking his new scope, (he's my bro also). Figured it should be easy, best group so far was .220". Got my "good" gun, .243 win with extra heavy barrel, bushnell 3.5-21 scope, surgeon action, blah blah blah. Off a bipod with a rear bag, off the bench. Doublecheck parallax and start shooting.

First group about .280", thinking "no problem...This will be easy." Includes the fouled cold bore, last shot maybe 6 weeks before, last cleaned about 300 rounds ago.

First shot of second group 1/2" high. "dammmmiiiitttt" Keep going, doesn't get any better. .8+" group. Thinking, thinking... What changed???!!! WTF!!! Finally realized I was holding the rifle different. First group was holding some cheek pressure downward while squeezing the bag for elevation. Second group was no cheek pressure.

Immediately try another group with some cheek pressure, get a .33" group.

Try again, screw up on one shot, .54” group. Grrrrrr. One last group, back to about .3”

postal
09-17-2013, 5:38 PM
OP… Sometimes I think you are overthinking things man…

Just get behind the rifle, and get comfortable…

Must make sure your scope, ring height, eye relief is all setup the way you like to give you a comfortable consistent cheek weld when on the rifle. Like postal said… whatever works for you.

Getting all that setup to MY liking and getting comfortable behind my own rifle is the ticket for me… more comfortable I am, the more I can focus on the task of just breaking the shot.



And some of this too......

Have you been dry firing? Get a LOT of practice in dry firing. And experiment while you're doing it.

You said you're in a small apt. Set up a mirror as far away from you as you can. Aim the mirror just right and dry fire at the mirror. Your target is your scopes cross hairs in the reflection. (yes- you can see it) In a small place, you might get enough distance to focus clearly doing this. Otherwise, you need to be subtle through a window without someone seeing you and calling the cops.

When I dry fire a lot, my rifle just stays out on the living room floor so I can practice 5-10-20 minutes here and there. Until my GF gets mad and makes me put it away cuz it looks 'cluttered'.....

Merc1138
09-17-2013, 5:50 PM
Agree- everyone needs solid fundamentals- then go from there to find whats best for them.

Appleseed is a great way to do that cheap.

We better watch out, Lynn might come back and start ranting about how you can't learn anything with a .22.

kentactic
09-17-2013, 5:52 PM
Yea I do squeeze the trigger right when im about to be at the bottom of my breath

but I feel like it's my face pushing the rifle off a tiny bit
I must not be behind my rifle right

Then where ever your face pushes the rifle. Thats your natural point of aim. Put the reticle on target based on that if need be.

LynnJr
09-17-2013, 6:17 PM
We better watch out, Lynn might come back and start ranting about how you can't learn anything with a .22.


Merc1138
You can't learn anything because you are too busy posting your typical useless nonsense on every post I am on.
You are not a real shooter so for you Appleseed and 22 is were you belong.
Just an FYI the worlds most accurate guns are shot without any cheeckweld at all.
Naturally I wouldn't expect you to know that

Justintoxicated
09-17-2013, 6:20 PM
Also I forgot to mention, I kept fighting the rear bag

Any recommendation for a solid one?

Didn't read the whole thread but I got this one and it was worth every penny.

http://www.shortactionprecision.com/ <--- straght Laced rear bag.

thegiff
09-17-2013, 6:24 PM
+1 on straightlaced, that's what I was shooting with. Nice, easy to adjust, and really light.

We are not shooting benchrest here (I mean this thread), pressure on the stock keeps the rifle from jumping or hopping randomly which opens up the groups, esp. when shooting off a bipod.

LynnJr
09-17-2013, 6:39 PM
The OP was shooting from a bench and with the right bags he could use a modified free-recoil method were he pinches the trigger while his thumb is behind the trigger guard.
The buttstock would be 1/8 inch away from his shoulder which would allow the bullet to leave the barrel before the gun jumped all over the place as you describe it.

If he had a front rest he could pinch the forend between his thumb and forefinger while resting the back of the same hand against the rest.This generally works well with heavy recoiling rifles not a 308 but it costs nothing to try it out.

Merc1138
09-17-2013, 6:44 PM
Merc1138
You can't learn anything because you are too busy posting your typical useless nonsense on every post I am on.
You are not a real shooter so for you Appleseed and 22 is were you belong.
Just an FYI the worlds most accurate guns are shot without any cheeckweld at all.
Naturally I wouldn't expect you to know that

If you'd spend more time reading the conversation before attempting to contribute, you'd have noted that the OP isn't trying to master the art of benchrest shooting, or even free recoil for that matter. Whether you like it or not, there are other shooting disciplines(that you've apparently got personal problems with) that other people may find more enjoyable than you're willing to accept. Different disciplines use different equipment at times, and tend to have different sets of expectations with regards to the precision required.

Not everyone wants to be you, get over it.

edit: See postal? I was right, lol.

postal
09-17-2013, 6:52 PM
We better watch out, Lynn might come back and start ranting about how you can't learn anything with a .22.

It *almost* makes me curious enough to unblock lynn to see his responses.....

*ALMOST!*

Marksmanship is marksmanship plain and simple. All the fundamentals apply to every platform. Even, or actually- especially pellet guns, and more so the 'spring guns'. Master a 'spring pellet gun' and your fundamentals are SOLID!

----------edit-----------
:facepalm::facepalm:

See... I typed this responce but wasnt done before your last post Merc....

I dont see anything lynn writes because I blocked him a long time ago... I only see it when someone quotes him- like you just did...

Agree with your response 100%. I dont care a whim about what a heavy sled purpose built rail gun can do in competition that weighs 40+ pounds....

This thread is about shooting a "normal rifle" in Normal use... with a PERSON aiming and holding and pulling the trigger...

Thats why I was joking with HKDave that I wanted to see a pic of his sled gun in his hunting tree stand.... cuz that's usefull ya know....
:facepalm:

TMB 1
09-17-2013, 6:58 PM
If you'd spend more time reading the conversation before attempting to contribute, you'd have noted that the OP isn't trying to master the art of benchrest shooting, or even free recoil for that matter. Whether you like it or not, there are other shooting disciplines(that you've apparently got personal problems with) that other people may find more enjoyable than you're willing to accept. Different disciplines use different equipment at times, and tend to have different sets of expectations with regards to the precision required.

Not everyone wants to be you, get over it.

edit: See postal? I was right, lol.

I thought he was just explaining away to see how accurate the rifle is for someone who isn't the greatest shot, If the rifle isn't capable the shooter may be frustrated along time trying to shoot 1/2" groups.

HK Dave
09-17-2013, 7:04 PM
Hmm... perhaps we should put Exodus behind one of our sub 1/2 moa rifles and let him have a go. ;)

HK Dave
09-17-2013, 7:07 PM
is it?
cause I plan to walk it out there soon...

if only they give you a lift out there

Well for a young buck like you it's probably not a big deal... but I remember the first time I tried to run that hill... it sucked. :P

postal
09-17-2013, 7:15 PM
Hmm... perhaps we should put Exodus behind one of our sub 1/2 moa rifles and let him have a go. ;)

OP is a pretty busy guy....

I've invited him out before and will continue to do so- Hopefully a day my brother plans on going... and give him time on a fullblown custom surgeon 243that shoots bugholes. (see the post above from 'TheGiff') along with watching and helping, and coaching any obvious flaws we see.

Doesnt help he's pretty busy, and it's a drive for him out to our range... But we're trying to get him out.

postal
09-17-2013, 7:18 PM
I thought he was just explaining away to see how accurate the rifle is for someone who isn't the greatest shot, If the rifle isn't capable the shooter may be frustrated along time trying to shoot 1/2" groups.

Perhaps this is the first thread you've seen with lynn...?

Merc1138
09-17-2013, 7:44 PM
I thought he was just explaining away to see how accurate the rifle is for someone who isn't the greatest shot, If the rifle isn't capable the shooter may be frustrated along time trying to shoot 1/2" groups.

That's fine. I'm not saying Lynn is wrong. What I'm stating is that his preferred method isn't the only way to get the job done. There are a lot of things posted by a lot of people that the OP should take into consideration, some suggestions even conflicting due to some people's preferred style. As long as the OP can identify that, he can give just about everything a try since he doesn't seem to be wanting to conform to some specific rule set for a competition and as a result has lots of routes to take.

milotrain
09-17-2013, 9:03 PM
The Lynn bashing is getting old. I agree his method isn't the only way (doesn't really matter what I think). He's stated that a .22LR is a fine way to learn to shoot, just not his ideal way to learn to shoot not a .22LR at long range, that's a reasonable statement weather you agree with it or not (I don't, but again doesn't matter). His advice to use bencrest methods to see if a gun is capable of a certain accuracy is reasonable.

I am most accurate with a tight sling and tight position with an AR, that does not really work for some guns, and certainly isn't the most accurate way to shoot a rifle, but it's as accurate as I need it to be in the competition I shoot. And that really is where the boundaries are set, you use the most accurate position you can for the specific application. Many of us are sort of shooting in the dark on this one because the OP hasn't really stated a set of boundaries.

This is specifically highlighted in his comment on cheek weld. On an AR I "drag skin", index my upper lip on the charging handle and use a 3/4 exhale to set my cheek weld pressure, as opposed to a full exhale. This is obviously in the prone position. If I were not shooting an AR, or if I were not shooting highpower (or a similar 20 round string over 20 min etc) then I would likely shoot a different way. I use a 3/4 breath because it seems like it keeps more air in my system longer so I have less eye fatigue over the 20 min string.

If you are going for 1/2 MOA groups consistent cheek weld will absolutely effect your groups every time. You will not get good groups until you can develop a way to have the same cheek pressure and location every time. This is not debatable. This is also why Lynn recommends a no cheek weld method, that is 100% consistent cheek pressure with very little skill involved. Not to say the benchrest position is easy to master, but no cheek weld is the easiest way to get consistent pressure.

LynnJr
09-17-2013, 9:04 PM
I thought he was just explaining away to see how accurate the rifle is for someone who isn't the greatest shot, If the rifle isn't capable the shooter may be frustrated along time trying to shoot 1/2" groups.


TMB
You of course are 100% correct.

If the original poster lived closer to me we would find out what the rifle was capable of as is.

We would then swap out parts to determine were his biggest gains would come from all in a neat and orderly manner seperating the shooter from the equation.

The non-shooter Merc1138 has no conception of this as he has never shot a truly accurate rifle nor does he know what they are capable of.He would have the original poster shoot a 22 at 200 yards for 3 years then he would have him post 13,000 times and still not know what headspace is or even how to reload.
What is truly sad is Real shooters are offering some good advice but its being diluted with nonsense from Merc1138 who doesn't understand the fundamentals or much else for that matter.
Learning whom to listen to is paramount on message boards and Merc1138 is not your guy..

NorCalFocus
09-17-2013, 9:13 PM
:lurk5:

So many opinions in this thread. I'm just going to keep mine to myself and enjoy the show.

milotrain
09-17-2013, 9:14 PM
Can we just let the drama go on both sides here? Is that possible? Can we at least all act like we are adults and don't have to prove ourselves to strangers?

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 9:42 PM
OP is a pretty busy guy....

I've invited him out before and will continue to do so- Hopefully a day my brother plans on going... and give him time on a fullblown custom surgeon 243that shoots bugholes. (see the post above from 'TheGiff') along with watching and helping, and coaching any obvious flaws we see.

Doesnt help he's pretty busy, and it's a drive for him out to our range... But we're trying to get him out.

I appreciate your invitation
and I will continue to try to make time for this
my work + college schedule is SOO hectic my weekends are spent either hitting the books, hitting the gym, or working

I am free on Veterans day though, maybe we can link up at WEGC?

postal
09-17-2013, 9:46 PM
I appreciate your invitation
and I will continue to try to make time for this
my work + college schedule is SOO hectic my weekends are spent either hitting the books, hitting the gym, or working

I am free on Veterans day though, maybe we can link up at WEGC?

Sounds good. I'll mark my calendar and hit up bro.

Merc1138
09-17-2013, 9:46 PM
TMB
You of course are 100% correct.

If the original poster lived closer to me we would find out what the rifle was capable of as is.

We would then swap out parts to determine were his biggest gains would come from all in a neat and orderly manner seperating the shooter from the equation.

The non-shooter Merc1138 has no conception of this as he has never shot a truly accurate rifle nor does he know what they are capable of.He would have the original poster shoot a 22 at 200 yards for 3 years then he would have him post 13,000 times and still not know what headspace is or even how to reload.
What is truly sad is Real shooters are offering some good advice but its being diluted with nonsense from Merc1138 who doesn't understand the fundamentals or much else for that matter.
Learning whom to listen to is paramount on message boards and Merc1138 is not your guy..

Still obsessed with my post count eh? You've got problems(and you're also a liar, but whatever). At the very least some of what your post is worthwhile, unfortunately you keep watering it down because you're jealous of post counts, mad that not everyone wants to shoot the way you do, and who knows what else.

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 9:47 PM
Sounds good. I'll mark my calendar and hit up bro.

cool :cool:

I don't have school that day AND no work on mondays

hehehe can't wait to learn from you guys!

ar15barrels
09-17-2013, 10:10 PM
ok guys so I've been snapping in
now the one thing I think I'm doing wrong is my cheek rest

am I SUPPOSE to put the entire force of my head down on the stock? or just hold it there while I shoot
since if I hold it the I won't be putting any pressure down on the stock
however if I DO put my head down the POA shifts dramatically and when I breathe in and out I'm not on the same POA

Adjust the cheekest height so that you can clamp the buttstock between your face and your rear bag.
You should be able to close your eye, get on the rifle and then open your eye and your eye should be aligned through the scope.
If you can't do that, adjust the cheekrest until you can.

Exodus343
09-17-2013, 10:17 PM
Adjust the cheekest height so that you can clamp the buttstock between your face and your rear bag.
You should be able to close your eye, get on the rifle and then open your eye and your eye should be aligned through the scope.
If you can't do that, adjust the cheekrest until you can.

Thank you again Randall

really don't know what I will do without a strong precision shooting community living in my county :D

LynnJr
09-18-2013, 4:48 AM
Still obsessed with my post count eh? You've got problems(and you're also a liar, but whatever). At the very least some of what your post is worthwhile, unfortunately you keep watering it down because you're jealous of post counts, mad that not everyone wants to shoot the way you do, and who knows what else.

Merc1138
The word your looking for is "Amazed".
I am amazed that anyone with 13,000 posts on a shooting forum knows as little as you do yet YOU feel the need to keep posting,Amazing.
If you find any errors in my posts point them out and I will correct them.
As to being mad about people not wanting to shoot like I do YOU really need to listen to yourself and step away from your keyboard.Most here want to shoot accurately which is exactly what I do and YOU don't do.
This thread only took a negative turn when YOU started posting and that again is nothing new.

QuarterBoreGunner
09-18-2013, 8:03 AM
ENOUGH WITH THE BICKERING. Take to PMs or take it face-to-face, but take it somewhere else. I don't care who said what first. STOP IT.

19K
09-18-2013, 8:29 AM
Lololol "why can't I shoot better than a professional shooter? Come on! Its my 3rd time shooting!"

Exodus343
09-19-2013, 6:27 PM
UPDATE

went to the range today
got behind the rifle

did load development

shot a 3 round group that measuered 0.6xx MOA at 100 yards
if I was to count that 5 round group it would be 2 ridiculous flyers that happened because I accidentally slipped the trigger :facepalm:

russ69
09-19-2013, 7:34 PM
...if I was to count that 5 round group it would be 2 ridiculous flyers that happened because I accidentally slipped the trigger...

No such things as flyers. All shots count. Statistically, you need seven shots for any real significance, they tell me.

five.five-six
09-19-2013, 7:41 PM
ENOUGH WITH THE BICKERING. Take to PMs or take it face-to-face, but take it somewhere else. I don't care who said what first. STOP IT.

No kidding, this thread is so good that it's dragging me away from the OT.

Raralith
09-19-2013, 7:50 PM
UPDATE

went to the range today
got behind the rifle

did load development

shot a 3 round group that measuered 0.6xx MOA at 100 yards
if I was to count that 5 round group it would be 2 ridiculous flyers that happened because I accidentally slipped the trigger :facepalm:

Congrats. What were the steps involved? Minimum powder load, add 0.3 increments, 3-5 loads of each set? What did you rifle like and what powder?

Exodus343
09-19-2013, 7:53 PM
Exactly what you said
0.3 increments, 5 rounds,
My rifle likes 43.6 grains of 4064

Still need to test out Varget

Raralith
09-19-2013, 10:16 PM
How much powder did you start with? How many loads did you develop? What did the ejected case and primer look like? Did you shoot prone or bench? Bipod or bags in the front? What did you use for the back? Depending on what you are planning do, I'd consider maxing out velocity for range and different shoot positions.

In regards to the shoot slippage, do you have the adjustable trigger (X Mark or something?) if so, did you set it to the lightest break? Do it it you havent before you consider a new trigger group.