PDA

View Full Version : AR Pistol & Rifles in same house


NSR500
01-09-2008, 11:46 AM
Just thought of this today and could not efficiently find any discussion here about it.
Here is the scenario:

You take a CA Legal AR Pistol and AR Rifle to the range. When you get home, you tear both down for cleaning being careful to keep the pistol upper and parts away from the rifle lower and vice vs. Question is, Could you still get in trouble for Constructive possesion?

4 Brigada
01-09-2008, 12:04 PM
Thats a real good question, from CA DOJ,no construtive possesion your ok. BATFE???? it would take someone with a degree in something other than engineering to answer you.

Hopi
01-09-2008, 12:42 PM
My non-legally binding opinion is NO.

If you are the owner of both a legal NFA weapon (select-fire AR) and a semi-auto AR, would constructive possession apply to all of your ARs if you disassembled the full-auto fire control group during cleaning? I wouldn't think so. Now if you didn't own a NFA AR and you had a full-auto fire control group laying around, I do believe this would likely be viewed as constructive possession if you also owned a semi-auto AR.

ar15barrels
01-09-2008, 12:45 PM
If you only had the pistol upper and a rifle lower, that's constructive possession of an SBR because you can't assemble a legal gun with those parts.
If you had the pistol upper and both pistol & rifle lowers, that's not constructive possession because you can legally assemble the pistol and only be missing a rifle upper.
Having both a complete pistol and a complete rifle is no problem because you can legally configure each of them.
Just don't illegally configure your rifle lower by installing the pistol upper on it.
The BATFE agent that hides in your attic and watches you will immediatly bust into the room and arrest you.

savasyn
01-09-2008, 12:55 PM
The BATFE agent that hides in your attic and watches you will immediatly bust into the room and arrest you.


Man, I HATE it when that happens!!

4 Brigada
01-09-2008, 12:55 PM
The BATFE agent that hides in your attic and watches you will immediatly bust into the room and arrest you.


haha, make fun, try it see what happens:TFH: edited later :inquis:

TWO WEEKS....:rofl2:

Hopi
01-09-2008, 1:03 PM
haha, make fun, try it see what happens:TFH: edited later :inquis:

TWO WEEKS....:rofl2:

Was he kidding? I was under the impression that "big brother is watching"...... Bwiese mentioned in another thread, members of Randy Weaver's family were murdered during an ATF investigation into NFA weapons allegations, they were murdered because his shotgun was alleged to have too short a barrel. The ATF is not interested in common sense, nor are they inclined to act in a responsible manner. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, the BATFE is absent the chains of accountability.

bwiese
01-09-2008, 1:42 PM
Thats a real good question, from CA DOJ,no construtive possesion your ok.

Bzzzzt, WRONG! DANGER!

There is indeed no constructive possession of AWs in CA.

There IS, however, constructive possession of SBRs, SBSes and MGs in both CA law and Fed law.

Legitimately owning a legal AR pistol and a legal AR rifle is fine - you have legal outcomes for specified combinations. Just don't put the shorty pistol upper on the rifle lower.

But owning an AR rifle only, but having a shorty upper without a legit pistol lower is where the problems of 'constructive possession' of an SBR occur. You don't have any possible legit outcome for that upper. And it doesn't matter if that shorty upper and rifle lower are at the same address or across the country - if they're under your control, it's a no-no.

4 Brigada
01-09-2008, 2:14 PM
But parts is parts if I have a AR rifle and a AR pistol disassembled on my kitchen table.If I wanted I could assemble the rifle lower with pistol upper making that an SBR, not that I would, (see post about agent in the attic).Does that constitute constructive possesion of a SBR?. Assembled as rifle and pistol correctly, NP, disassembled?

Mssr. Eleganté
01-09-2008, 2:34 PM
But parts is parts if I have a AR rifle and a AR pistol disassembled on my kitchen table.If I wanted I could assemble the rifle lower with pistol upper making that an SBR, not that I would, (see post about agent in the attic).Does that constitute constructive possesion of a SBR?. Assembled as rifle and pistol correctly, NP, disassembled?

The Supreme Court determined that as long as there was at least one legal way to assemble your parts then then you did not have constructive possession of an SBR.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/thompson.txt

But Bill already pointed this out.

bwiese
01-09-2008, 4:01 PM
Correct, if you have a lawful combination but which could be rearranged into an illegal combination, you're OK - you have a "lawful outlet", so to speak.

As I said, it's generally only a problem if a part you had in your possession had no lawful way to be assembled with the rest of the parts you had. If you have a pistol upper, you'd better have a legit pistol lower.

NSR500
01-09-2008, 4:10 PM
Lawful Outlet, Cool!

Thanks guys! I have some ideas for some 2008 Projects and wanted to be sure they are on the legal end.

Stormfeather
01-09-2008, 5:23 PM
Was he kidding? I was under the impression that "big brother is watching"...... Bwiese mentioned in another thread, Randy Weaver was murdered during an ATF investigation into NFA weapons allegations, he was murdered because his shotgun was alleged to have too short a barrel. The ATF is not interested in common sense, nor are they inclined to act in a responsible manner. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, the BATFE is absent the chains of accountability.



Actually, Randy Weaver wasnt murdered, his wife and son was. It was over a FTA mixup that happened when court dates got mixed up. The FTA was supposedly in relation to the barrel that a atf snitch got Randy to saw down to an illegal length. Whereas the ATF then tried to recruit Randy to be a informant in regards to the Aryan Nation Congress that was happening in Idaho. I actually met Randy and got him to sign a copy of his book for me at a gunshow in Fl. Nice guy, soft spoken, and has been thru alot.

Hopi
01-09-2008, 7:12 PM
Actually, Randy Weaver wasnt murdered, his wife and son was. It was over a FTA mixup that happened when court dates got mixed up. The FTA was supposedly in relation to the barrel that a atf snitch got Randy to saw down to an illegal length. Whereas the ATF then tried to recruit Randy to be a informant in regards to the Aryan Nation Congress that was happening in Idaho. I actually met Randy and got him to sign a copy of his book for me at a gunshow in Fl. Nice guy, soft spoken, and has been thru alot.

Ahhh, thank you for the correction, I corrected the original post to reflect the victims. Juggling too many things while posting earlier...but it should be noted that my point stands regarding the ATF tactics. For example:
[Randy Weaver] was initially arrested by ATF agents on minor charges[3] relating to possession of an illegally shortened shotgun in January 1991. This was compounded by Weaver's failure to appear in court to answer these charges; he was served with court papers that incorrectly identified the date for his appearance. A bench warrant was issued for Weaver's arrest, and the U.S. Marshals Service was directed to serve it; the assistance of the Marshals Special Operations Group was requested for this purpose. During this period, Weaver isolated himself on his property and became increasingly suspicious of the federal government, vowing to fight rather than surrender peacefully. A plan for voluntary surrender was drawn up by the Marshals Service during October 1991, but refused by the U.S. attorney involved in the case.

After long-term surveillance (costing more than $1 million)[4] of the Weaver property in preparation for an arrest, the Deputy Director of the Special Operations Group of the Marshals Service recommended against a tactical assault on the Weaver residence. All due to the original arrest for a "short barreled shotgun".....

ar15barrels
01-09-2008, 10:35 PM
Actually, Randy Weaver wasnt murdered, his wife and son was.

Exactly.
I bought Randy Weaver's book and he signed it for me at Knob Creek a few years back.
The book is co-written by him and his daughter.

grammaton76
01-10-2008, 2:34 AM
Hmm, now here's a question. Say you have a LOT of AR rifle lowers, and one pistol lower, but you have a couple of pistol uppers.

I imagine that it's probably prudent to own as many (or more) pistol lowers as you have pistol uppers. But for instance, I could always be tempted by a Beowulf pistol to "one-up" my Desert Eagle with, and then of course get a standard 223 upper for it as well.

(Incidentally, it's entirely likely that I'll be playing with pistol lowers in the next few months... dual state resident parents are fun)

ar15barrels
01-10-2008, 8:51 AM
Hmm, now here's a question. Say you have a LOT of AR rifle lowers, and one pistol lower, but you have a couple of pistol uppers.

I imagine that it's probably prudent to own as many (or more) pistol lowers as you have pistol uppers.

If you owned one SBR or MG lower, you could own 100 short barreled uppers and be completely legal.
The one NFA lower exempts you from constructive possession.

Now, if you also owned 99 rifle lowers, it would be prudent to also own at least 1 rifle upper.

Don't EVER EVER EVER install one of the 100 SBR uppers on your 99 rifle lowers.

hawk81
01-10-2008, 5:07 PM
If you owned one SBR or MG lower, you could own 100 short barreled uppers and be completely legal.
The one NFA lower exempts you from constructive possession.

Now, if you also owned 99 rifle lowers, it would be prudent to also own at least 1 rifle upper.

Don't EVER EVER EVER install one of the 100 SBR uppers on your 99 rifle lowers.
Whatttttttttttttttttaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttttttt!?!?!? !?!?!?!?!?!