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View Full Version : Free-Floating a 5.56mm Battle Rifle and Why It's Not Important


Mr Blu
08-16-2013, 9:57 PM
Hey y'all.

The title says it all.

I have seen many an AR in 5.56mm with a free-floated barrel and I always catch myself thinking, "Why would they waste the materials on such a thing???" The only time I ever saw a free floated 5.56mm rifle were the Designated Marksmen using the unofficial M-16A5 in my companies squads, and it didn't have a "true" free-floated barrel. It still had the front irons on it. It was a match barrel with a match trigger assembly, but that was really it for special stuff. The rest you could find everywhere else.

Even with a match barrel, using hand-loaded ammo, you still wouldn't get much farther than 600m consistently, if someone could even do it that far. The round is too light.

So my question to everybody is this.......

Why would you free-float a battle rifle with such a small and light bullet???

To me, battle rifle means "front-line weapon system", as in every swinging dick in the grass has one for combat. They don't need the accuracy of the free-floated barrel because the majority of combat is either in an urban environment or some dense forest area, nor would they be issued the high quality ammo required to use such a thing. A door-kicking, patrol-walking, HMMWV-riding, every-day shooter will never be in a situation to utilize such a thing on a REGULAR basis.

I understand that people want to have an accurate weapon system, but as I stated before, 600m is about all you will get out a precision 5.56mm rifle and that's assuming that the weather is nice to you that day. I haven't heard of a hunter shooting that far, due to the possibility of someone else hunting the same animal so correct me if I'm wrong, but it can't be for that. Target shooting is great, but then you essentially end up with a $2,000 precision AR to punch paper with. In my opinion, that's a complete waste of materials and funds. Not to mention a rifle that will never be "maxed out", unless they go to a 1,000y/m range and from what I understand, those are few and far between.

ar15barrels
08-16-2013, 10:10 PM
Free floating the barrel from the sling and bipod improves mechanical accuracy.
Leaving the front sight on the barrel improves the iron sight accuracy.

Putting a front sight on a freefloat handguard will actually allow the barrel to float in relation to the front sight.
That's why the best setup is a barrel mounted front sight and a freefloat tube with the sling and bipod mounted to the tube.

FMJBT
08-16-2013, 10:20 PM
I'd agree that a true "Battle Rifle" or light infantry rifle/carbine and their typical end user do not really need a free floated barrel. Having said that, there are definitely applications where it is needed. The MK 12 SPR is a prime example of this. It's hard to catagorize the MK 12 as being a "Sniper Rifle", "Designated Marksman Rifle", or any other generic catagorization because the rifle does just about everything asked of it extremely well. Due in large part to it's free floated barrel, it has the accuracy to be used effectively out to 700+ meters. It's also still light and compact enough to be used effectively in more urban environments where engagement ranges can be much, much shorter. Certainly there are scenarios in a short range environment like that where the capability to hit something the size of a postage stamp at 100 yards might come in handy. For the sake of versatility, I'd say it's better to have the free floated barrel and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Mr Blu
08-16-2013, 10:23 PM
Free floating the barrel from the sling and bipod improves mechanical accuracy.
Leaving the front sight on the barrel improves the iron sight accuracy.

Putting a front sight on a freefloat handguard will actually allow the barrel to float in relation to the front sight.
That's why the best setup is a barrel mounted front sight and a freefloat tube with the sling and bipod mounted to the tube.

Huh.............Interesting.

But what about "standard issue battle rifles"???

Combat is typically within 100m or less of either force, short of some wide open area, so why bother then???

starsnuffer
08-16-2013, 10:27 PM
How many people do you know who go to battle with the guns they buy?

Battle rifles are issued.

-W

Justintoxicated
08-16-2013, 10:27 PM
By that standard you might as well just get an AK variant since accuracy isn't important to you.
I guess my match grade handloads and scope are a waste too. I mean why would you want something to be a battle rifle and super accurate right?

Merc1138
08-16-2013, 10:28 PM
Huh.............Interesting.

But what about "standard issue battle rifles"???

Combat is typically within 100m or less of either force, short of some wide open area, so why bother then???

Because combat doesn't involve trying to shoot tiny little groups? Maybe some people want to shoot tiny little groups with an AR? Who cares if they spent 2 grand, it's their money.

WalterJones
08-16-2013, 10:43 PM
Target shooting is great, but then you essentially end up with a $2,000 precision AR to punch paper with.

For some of us hitting a bowling pin at 2-300 meters is all the justification we need. Why do some people need glass bedding in their bolt action rifles? They are only going to shoot at a deer under 75 yards right? Why don't we all drive the same car, too?

In my opinion, that's a complete waste of materials and funds.

Whose funds? Who's to say how a guy spends his money? Or are you talking about .gov?

Thorax
08-16-2013, 10:51 PM
I kinda enjoy thinning out the prarie dog herds up at my place in Montana.
Set the rifle up on the rail around the porch in the morning with a cup of coffee and blast away....400-500 and further

It's a wonderful start to the day, you should try it sometime.....might relax those bunched panties.

hermosabeach
08-16-2013, 10:53 PM
When you are out in the field and you rest against a good, back pack, fence post, tighten the sling around your arm, drop prone and use the bipod, why not keep the tension off of the barrel?

Prarrie Dogs at 300 are a small target.

A free float tube is not much money to eliminate a variable pressure on the barrel that can shift the point of impact.

1k guns are not normally battle rifles just as battle rifles are not normally 600 meter guns.

I see guys with a 4-20x optic and an RMR on the side and the upper is on of the bushmaster 11" barrels with 5" barrel extension.. And scratch my head.....

That is part of the fun of shooting. You can build up a basic model to the 14 pound mall ninja 5 flashlight , the laser special.


But for $100 -$200 for a free float kit, that makes sense to me.

ar15barrels
08-16-2013, 11:07 PM
But what about "standard issue battle rifles"???

Combat is typically within 100m or less of either force, short of some wide open area, so why bother then???

No need to freefloat CQB carbines.

BrianRodela
08-16-2013, 11:18 PM
I hope you don't seriously think that the only bullet shot out of an AR is a 55 or 62gn bullet do you? I understand your point when referring to the platform as just a battle rifle as it may be the only experience you might have had with it in your 8 years in the Army but that isn't what the rifle is limited to. Production hunting models exist now expanding the customer base to include those who might not considered hunting because of the stiff recoil of the bolt action rifle. When your target is the size of a torso, sure, the free float tube isn't necessary. But when your looking to use the rifle for other purposes, to squeak every bit of precision out of it, you won't get far without one. You might as well complain about people who use aftermarket performance parts on their cars. Having a precision weapon also aids in load development when reloading.
As far as the 600 yard comment, Son, there are people on here who shoot that with iron sights every time they go out and can reach much farther than that, even on a crappy day. It wouldn't be possible without that free float tube. It may be designed as a paper puncher but I assure you, it's not the only thing it can punch.
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff25/coastermek/image_zpse92cc0b7.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/coastermek/media/image_zpse92cc0b7.jpg.html)

rero360
08-17-2013, 6:05 AM
My M16A4 (SDMR) has a DD Free Float Rail. My M4 has a Troy VTAC Charlie Rail, Free Float as well. I personally will take any and every advantage I can get, that includes having the 10 different fires/air nets on my radio for pain and destruction beyond what my rifle can deliver. Currently in the 'Stan.

I see no reason not to do something that is beneficial, especially if the only reason people can give is "well we got along just fine without it before" F that noise.

infringed711
08-17-2013, 6:52 AM
My M16A4 (SDMR) has a DD Free Float Rail. My M4 has a Troy VTAC Charlie Rail, Free Float as well. I personally will take any and every advantage I can get, that includes having the 10 different fires/air nets on my radio for pain and destruction beyond what my rifle can deliver. Currently in the 'Stan.

I see no reason not to do something that is beneficial, especially if the only reason people can give is "well we got along just fine without it before" F that noise.

You in the army? My unit sure as **** never had troy rails in the budget

diablodawg
08-17-2013, 6:52 AM
Huh.............Interesting.

But what about "standard issue battle rifles"???

Combat is typically within 100m or less of either force, short of some wide open area, so why bother then???


That's ignorant. Deployment #4 was typically 3-500m across fields and canal to canal. Free float barrels are simply more accurate and don't really have any drawbacks.

Hoop
08-17-2013, 7:04 AM
I kinda enjoy thinning out the prarie dog herds up at my place in Montana.
.

Isn't that kind of like blowing away Punxatawny Phil's skinny little brother?

Lucky Scott
08-17-2013, 7:13 AM
I like my 16 inch AR15, but would also like to play with a 20-24 inch barrel AR15 with a scope. Why,............................... Why not?
I am not a soldier and not involved in any battles. I like rifles and like to shoot them.
I know the .223 is not a long range round, and I have other stuff for long range.
I still think it would be fun to see how a longer barrel AR with a scope would work.

Fjold
08-17-2013, 7:59 AM
"Only accurate rifles are interesting"...................... Townsend Whelen

Drew Eckhardt
08-17-2013, 8:18 AM
Why would you free-float a battle rifle with such a small and light bullet???


Because I've to experience a zombie attack providing larger targets and have therefore limited my 100-200 yard shooting to things like 2.5" wide soda cans and paper targets with 1.75" 10 rings and .75" X rings.


A door-kicking, patrol-walking, HMMWV-riding, every-day shooter will never be in a situation to utilize such a thing on a REGULAR basis.


I'm to old to draft and send out on patrol.

russ69
08-17-2013, 8:27 AM
Isn't that kind of like blowing away Punxatawny Phil's skinny little brother?

No, ole Phil is a ground hog, a much bigger animal than a prairie dog.

russ69
08-17-2013, 8:31 AM
...Target shooting is great, but then you essentially end up with a $2,000 precision AR to punch paper with. In my opinion, that's a complete waste of materials and funds...


Only 2000? You are thinking small, I wish my target guns were only 2000. Remember a minute of a man is a lot bigger target than the 10 ring. What do you say, I'll use my tools my way and you use yours, why do you care what I do?

G21Shooter
08-17-2013, 8:42 AM
Most people who own AR15s own them as a fun/hobby gun and ARE NOT going to combat with them.

Building a precision AR15 rifle is popular and having a free floating barrel is very important if you are looking to shoot the smallest groups possible at 100 or 200 yards. All most people do is punch paper with their ARs and are not looking for just human MOA they want small groups.

porky
08-17-2013, 10:11 AM
F that noise... One of my favorite curses!:)

m16
08-17-2013, 12:23 PM
For me there was no other option.

I like extended tubes, and usually buy barrels with front sight bases already pinned in place.

So, it's chop the sight, and install a handguard that free floats the barrel.

I don't see what the problem is.

Josh3239
08-17-2013, 12:47 PM
Wow, thread = thumbs down.

I can't tell what your even basing your opinion on. Since you keep mentioning the 5.56mm being a 600m max weapon, designed for close range I can only guess that you think that free float handguards are supposed to increase range? I can assure you they do not.

You also mention battle rifles several times. No rifle in anyone's home is a battle rifle, the only battle rifles are military issue rifles in the arms rooms. And I don't think we need to tell you that one cannot take a personally owned weapon to war.

They aren't battle rifles. They are sporting rifles, some are made for competition, some for range use, some for training, some for hunting, and some for benchrest. Have you ever looked at a benchrest rifle and thought why do that, you cannot hunt with it? Have you ever looked at a hunting rifle and thought that would be a terrible competition gun?

It is just a simple fact that a free float barrel produces a better rifle, just a fact. If you want mediocrity that is your choice. I like free floating, I like longer handguards, I like the barrel covered, I like my front sight right behind the muzzle and atop the handguard. If you like technology from the 1960s by all means, I'll stay in 2013.

A better question is why make a thread about a part that costs somewhere in the avenue of $50-$400 depending on model. Why not muzzle devices? Those run from about $8-$400. Does any civilian need one? It is only necessary on a battle rifle right? Why does one need any sort of brake for such a small, lightweight bullet. Or how about pistol grips, they range from $5-$50. The military has been running the A2 for decades and it works, why does anyone need an aftermarker grip with storage. It isn't like any civilian is going to be shooting 600m and carrying it for extended times periods, they don't need that comfort. And I can keep going with buttstocks, optics, sights, barrels, etc.

This thread is lame.

Thorax
08-17-2013, 12:58 PM
And I don't think we need to tell you that one cannot take a personally owned weapon to war.



Obviously you've never been in a war zone.

Anyone with half a brain has a hidden pistol bought off the black market tucked into a boot or belt.
Half the guys had all sorts of weaponry they grabbed from the local rippers.

zfields
08-17-2013, 1:29 PM
Why not muzzle devices? Those run from about $8-$400. Does any civilian need one? It is only necessary on a battle rifle right? Why does one need any sort of brake for such a small, lightweight bullet.


Please no, we had that thread already by some other closet "civilians shouldn't have guns" guy.

TMB 1
08-17-2013, 1:46 PM
What would a 20 shot group from a free floating barrel be compared to one that's not free floating? Both groups shot under 2 minutes.

Merc1138
08-17-2013, 1:48 PM
Please no, we had that thread already by some other closet "civilians shouldn't have guns" guy.

But I like reading silly arguments from people claiming the way uncle sam taught them is the only way anything should ever be done.

hnoppenberger
08-17-2013, 2:31 PM
After reading this thread I can't believe I bought a reloading bench. who tf would need hand loaded ammo? What a waste of resources.

Thorax
08-17-2013, 2:48 PM
.

Even with a match barrel, using hand-loaded ammo, you still wouldn't get much farther than 600m consistently, if someone could even do it that far. The round is too light.


The funnay is....

Every single Marine has to qualify at 500 METERS with a bone stock M16-M4 rifle. When I did it it was a M16A1 with 55 grain FMJs.

With open sights.

I guess that's just one of the differences between the Army and Marines.
What they say is impossible, we do daily.

rabagley
08-17-2013, 2:56 PM
Hey y'all.

The title says it all.

Well, free floating may not important for you and your shooting. Fair enough.

As for free floating being worthless for battle rifles... I agree it doesn't make a lot of difference at CQB ranges, but I don't have any battle rifles and I don't do CQB shooting. My AR's were built up with other purposes in mind.

...and I chose to build all of them with free floating barrels. Fair enough?

guitar-nut
08-17-2013, 2:57 PM
I guess that's just one of the differences between the Army and Marines.
What they say is impossible, we do daily.

:rolleyes:

Noonanda
08-17-2013, 3:51 PM
Obviously you've never been in a war zone.

Anyone with half a brain has a hidden pistol bought off the black market tucked into a boot or belt.
Half the guys had all sorts of weaponry they grabbed from the local rippers.

Been in a few warzones in both Iraq and Afghanistan and while I could have carried an AK on my first deployment if I had really wanted, the opportunity to find a throw away pistol never happened, then on my other deployments there was zero chance of buying one off the blackmarket.

But I like reading silly arguments from people claiming the way uncle sam taught them is the only way anything should ever be done.
I like reading silly arguments from people claiming that Chris Costa and Magpul are the only way anything should ever be done.

To the Original poster, the M-4 or M-4A1 (or even M-16A4) you carried was not free float. Dont know why the military went down that road, probably to save money and the need for a free float rail was not required. But again you are aiming at a human body, not a small groundhog. Bottom line a free float is more accurate. And to mount one on a Civilian rifle is personal preference. I am getting ready to put on my M-4 Style rifle, because I can. But I also free floated the barrels and glass bedded some of my bolt action rifles to try to squeeze as much accuracy as possible. But your mileage may vary.

Mr Blu
08-17-2013, 4:14 PM
But I like reading silly arguments from people claiming the way uncle sam taught them is the only way anything should ever be done.

Instead of being a douche by talking sarcastically about someone in the third person, how about maybe you ask questions???

Mr Blu
08-17-2013, 4:24 PM
Wow, thread = thumbs down.

I can't tell what your even basing your opinion on. Since you keep mentioning the 5.56mm being a 600m max weapon, designed for close range I can only guess that you think that free float handguards are supposed to increase range? I can assure you they do not.

You also mention battle rifles several times. No rifle in anyone's home is a battle rifle, the only battle rifles are military issue rifles in the arms rooms. And I don't think we need to tell you that one cannot take a personally owned weapon to war.

They aren't battle rifles. They are sporting rifles, some are made for competition, some for range use, some for training, some for hunting, and some for benchrest. Have you ever looked at a benchrest rifle and thought why do that, you cannot hunt with it? Have you ever looked at a hunting rifle and thought that would be a terrible competition gun?

It is just a simple fact that a free float barrel produces a better rifle, just a fact. If you want mediocrity that is your choice. I like free floating, I like longer handguards, I like the barrel covered, I like my front sight right behind the muzzle and atop the handguard. If you like technology from the 1960s by all means, I'll stay in 2013.

A better question is why make a thread about a part that costs somewhere in the avenue of $50-$400 depending on model. Why not muzzle devices? Those run from about $8-$400. Does any civilian need one? It is only necessary on a battle rifle right? Why does one need any sort of brake for such a small, lightweight bullet. Or how about pistol grips, they range from $5-$50. The military has been running the A2 for decades and it works, why does anyone need an aftermarker grip with storage. It isn't like any civilian is going to be shooting 600m and carrying it for extended times periods, they don't need that comfort. And I can keep going with buttstocks, optics, sights, barrels, etc.

This thread is lame.

More sarcasm from someone who would rather insult the OP than ask for clarification.

And the questions you ask regarding bench rest rifles and so on are red herring fallacies.

guitar-nut
08-17-2013, 4:31 PM
It seems like you're telling us and not interested in discussing it. The fact is, no it's not really necessary on a "battle rifle". But at the same time it doesn't hurt anything and doesn't really have any negatives. It's one of those things that may or may not help, but there's no reason not to have (barring price) if that's your style.

valley82
08-17-2013, 4:43 PM
Why would I possibly want all of my ARs to look like standard military rifles? I have those but the rest are free float rails. Why, because I have the money to build them as I see fit. I do not plan on seeing any real combat, I own them for fun/hobby, but heaven help you if you kick my front door in, free float or not they all shoot...Minute of dirtbag.

Mr Blu
08-17-2013, 4:43 PM
It seems like you're telling us and not interested in discussing it. The fact is, no it's not really necessary on a "battle rifle". But at the same time it doesn't hurt anything and doesn't really have any negatives. It's one of those things that may or may not help, but there's no reason not to have (barring price) if that's your style.

I didn't mean to. I was simply giving my personal experience and opinion for my side of the answer, in order to give a starting point for discussion.

What ended up happening was some form of flame war and sarcastic insults directed towards me because I voiced a very educated opinion on the matter.

I'm most likely getting hammered by people who really like free-floated barrels for their short barreled rifles and don't like someone "in the know", describing a reason/situation where it could be a bad idea or a waste.

The reason why I used "battle rifles" is that I have seen/heard of a few firearm companies selling such a thing, but costing way more than they should because they have all the shiny bells and whistles already installed, ultimately defeating the purpose.

Merc1138
08-17-2013, 4:49 PM
And there you go again calling it a "waste".

If it doesn't add any weight, only adds functionality, doesn't cost you anything, why care? You didn't start a discussion, you made a series of ignorant comments in your original post while completely ignoring the dozens of reasons people choose to use an AR, and ignored what is essentially a fact(free floating being superior) while attempting to let us know that no matter what we're all wrong because you learned how to do things one specific way. Don't believe me? You could have just as easily asked your question without posting this nonsense:
I understand that people want to have an accurate weapon system, but as I stated before, 600m is about all you will get out a precision 5.56mm rifle and that's assuming that the weather is nice to you that day. I haven't heard of a hunter shooting that far, due to the possibility of someone else hunting the same animal so correct me if I'm wrong, but it can't be for that. Target shooting is great, but then you essentially end up with a $2,000 precision AR to punch paper with. In my opinion, that's a complete waste of materials and funds. Not to mention a rifle that will never be "maxed out", unless they go to a 1,000y/m range and from what I understand, those are few and far between.

Heck, you could have at least done some basic reading on google for 15 minutes and educated yourself instead of making a bunch of ignorant comments while trying to tell everyone else that they're wrong and you're right. $2000 for a precision AR? I hope that budget doesn't include the optics.

Mr Blu
08-17-2013, 5:03 PM
And there you go again calling it a "waste".

If it doesn't add any weight, only adds functionality, doesn't cost you anything, why care? You didn't start a discussion, you made a series of ignorant comments in your original post while completely ignoring the dozens of reasons people choose to use an AR, and ignored what is essentially a fact(free floating being superior) while attempting to let us know that no matter what we're all wrong because you learned how to do things one specific way. Don't believe me? You could have just as easily asked your question without posting this nonsense:


Heck, you could have at least done some basic reading on google for 15 minutes and educated yourself instead of making a bunch of ignorant comments while trying to tell everyone else that they're wrong and you're right. $2000 for a precision AR? I hope that budget doesn't include the optics.

Fine.

You want an example of a waste???? OK.....

Buying a Schmidt and Bender glass, a chrome plated/free-floated barrel, with an HS Precision stock, in order to shoot cans and squirrels at 25 ft. The owner of that rifle isn't going to get anywhere NEAR the potential it has by using such a way.

How about someone who has a free-floated barrel for home defense??? Again, what's the point???

You seem to have completely missed the point of the original post, which was to discuss why someone would free-float a short range rifle, and decided to start some form of flame war, by insulting me and now getting even more stupid by continuing it after I called you on it.

In short, buy the right tool for the job.

Thorax
08-17-2013, 5:09 PM
Heh....

Who's willing to bet his old lady got the free floated rifle in the divorce and he's trying really hard to justify not now having it ?

It's either that or his daddy was a total freak about free floating rifles on the weekends and didn't pay junior enough attention ?

zfields
08-17-2013, 5:10 PM
Fine.

You want an example of a waste???? OK.....

Buying a Schmidt and Bender glass, a chrome plated/free-floated barrel, with an HS Precision stock, in order to shoot cans and squirrels at 25 ft. The owner of that rifle isn't going to get anywhere NEAR the potential it has by using such a way.

How about someone who has a free-floated barrel for home defense??? Again, what's the point???

You seem to have completely missed the point of the original post, which was to discuss why someone would free-float a short range rifle, and decided to start some form of flame war, by insulting me and now getting even more stupid by continuing it after I called you on it.

In short, buy the right tool for the job.

Because that rifle can be used for multiple things. AR's are a versatile platform, and not everyone wants to buy 5 uppers when 1 upper will do everything they need it to.


And for what its worth, your OP did not come off as inviting discussion.
Hell, look at the name of the thread, doesn't really lend itself to argument either.




(side note, most those barrels are stainless....don't think I've ever seen a chrome plated. Now if you meant chrome lined, guys who are building target guns usually avoid them)

negolien
08-17-2013, 5:11 PM
Wow, thread = thumbs down.

I can't tell what your even basing your opinion on. Since you keep mentioning the 5.56mm being a 600m max weapon, designed for close range I can only guess that you think that free float handguards are supposed to increase range? I can assure you they do not.

You also mention battle rifles several times. No rifle in anyone's home is a battle rifle, the only battle rifles are military issue rifles in the arms rooms. And I don't think we need to tell you that one cannot take a personally owned weapon to war.

They aren't battle rifles. They are sporting rifles, some are made for competition, some for range use, some for training, some for hunting, and some for benchrest. Have you ever looked at a benchrest rifle and thought why do that, you cannot hunt with it? Have you ever looked at a hunting rifle and thought that would be a terrible competition gun?

It is just a simple fact that a free float barrel produces a better rifle, just a fact. If you want mediocrity that is your choice. I like free floating, I like longer handguards, I like the barrel covered, I like my front sight right behind the muzzle and atop the handguard. If you like technology from the 1960s by all means, I'll stay in 2013.

A better question is why make a thread about a part that costs somewhere in the avenue of $50-$400 depending on model. Why not muzzle devices? Those run from about $8-$400. Does any civilian need one? It is only necessary on a battle rifle right? Why does one need any sort of brake for such a small, lightweight bullet. Or how about pistol grips, they range from $5-$50. The military has been running the A2 for decades and it works, why does anyone need an aftermarker grip with storage. It isn't like any civilian is going to be shooting 600m and carrying it for extended times periods, they don't need that comfort. And I can keep going with buttstocks, optics, sights, barrels, etc.

This thread is lame.

Kind of reminds me of people saying .45 acp was not a precision round out of a 1911 then seeing a guy hit 600 yards consistently with a modified 1911 and hand loads..

MrPlink
08-17-2013, 5:12 PM
Interesting to note how many modern combat designs feature floating hand guards like the scar and the 416. Also look at the IC rifles.
Not being a necessity does not preclude being beneficial

TMB 1
08-17-2013, 5:13 PM
Free floating barrels accuracy can actually be worse than one that isn't once the barrel heats up.

jdben92883
08-17-2013, 5:14 PM
Crap...I guess I have a WHOLE bunch if things I need to sell 'cuz I've wasted a big chunk-o-money.

Next thread = why would a civi waste money on an ACOG.

Merc1138
08-17-2013, 5:21 PM
Fine.

You want an example of a waste???? OK.....

Buying a Schmidt and Bender glass, a chrome plated/free-floated barrel, with an HS Precision stock, in order to shoot cans and squirrels at 25 ft. The owner of that rifle isn't going to get anywhere NEAR the potential it has by using such a way.

How about someone who has a free-floated barrel for home defense??? Again, what's the point???

You seem to have completely missed the point of the original post, which was to discuss why someone would free-float a short range rifle, and decided to start some form of flame war, by insulting me and now getting even more stupid by continuing it after I called you on it.

In short, buy the right tool for the job.

lol, you didn't "call" me on anything. You're continuing to complain about how other people spend their own money and spend their own time shooting. All of the ignorant nonsense in your original post has been explained to you by people already. Now I'd love to see this guy with a chrome plated, free floated barrel with s&b glass, and a HS precision stock, that only ever shoots squirrels and cans at 25ft. that has got your panties in such a wad.

rabagley
08-17-2013, 5:23 PM
What ended up happening was some form of flame war and sarcastic insults directed towards me because I voiced a very educated opinion on the matter.

Don't let your ego get in the way of any other goals you might have. You expressed an opinion. Educated? I'd put it in the bottom quarter of any ranking. Don't pretend that AR's are CQB weapons and you'll score higher next time.

m16
08-17-2013, 5:40 PM
Hay guyz I just got a new free floating quad rail for my CQB carbine but I can't get my old plastic handguards off.

Is there is a special tool for this?????????

umd
08-17-2013, 7:27 PM
Fine.

You want an example of a waste???? OK.....

Buying a Schmidt and Bender glass, a chrome plated/free-floated barrel, with an HS Precision stock, in order to shoot cans and squirrels at 25 ft. The owner of that rifle isn't going to get anywhere NEAR the potential it has by using such a way.

How about someone who has a free-floated barrel for home defense??? Again, what's the point???

You seem to have completely missed the point of the original post, which was to discuss why someone would free-float a short range rifle, and decided to start some form of flame war, by insulting me and now getting even more stupid by continuing it after I called you on it.

In short, buy the right tool for the job.

My main hobby is competitive cycling, and this post could easily have been on "bikeforums" if you just change a few terms around. The overweight Fred who rides 50 miles a week doesn't need a $10,000 S-Works Venge, but really, who gives a crap?

Edit: what's the gun forum equivalent of people complaining about someone not waving?

FMJBT
08-17-2013, 8:11 PM
Hay guyz I just got a new free floating quad rail for my CQB carbine but I can't get my old plastic handguards off.

Is there is a special tool for this?????????

You'll need an Oxy-Acetylene torch with a rose bud tip and a 48" pipe wrench. Once you get the entire assembly up to temp (Around 1200F), most of the original plastic handguard will have evaporated off in a cloud of black smoke. The remaining bits can then be beaten off using the pipe wrench. Hope this helps....

Steve_In_29
08-17-2013, 8:18 PM
......Even with a match barrel, using hand-loaded ammo, you still wouldn't get much farther than 600m consistently, if someone could even do it that far. The round is too light.....

....I understand that people want to have an accurate weapon system, but as I stated before, 600m is about all you will get out a precision 5.56mm rifle and that's assuming that the weather is nice to you that day.....

....They don't need the accuracy of the free-floated barrel because the majority of combat is either in an urban environment or some dense forest area......
Can't shoot beyond 600yrds??? Someone should inform the military's shooting teams that their mouse guns aren't any good for those 1000yrd rifle matches they keep winning.

Not a lot of "urban warfare" and "dense forest" combat going on in Afghanistan. Matter of fact distance of engagement is the driving force behind pulling all those M14s out of mothballs.

Me thinks perhaps thou doesn't know that which thou is talking about. :facepalm:

Darklyte27
08-17-2013, 9:08 PM
I think this is the ultimate answer,

FMJ's version


Hgd2F2QNfEE

Current ver

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...

My rifle and I know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...

Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.

So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

ar15barrels
08-17-2013, 9:25 PM
Hay guyz I just got a new free floating quad rail for my CQB carbine but I can't get my old plastic handguards off.

Is there is a special tool for this?????????

Cheaty Puller says to use your buddy as a tool.

Thorax
08-17-2013, 10:11 PM
Cheaty Puller says to use your buddy as a tool.

I thought it was use your tool as a buddy ??? :confused:

d4v0s
08-17-2013, 11:27 PM
Wait... so free floats are stupid for cqb... then you start ranting about 600m being the top distance an AR15 can shoot???

Then your upset when we all question the size of your internet penis??

I did kind of laught when you mentioned an S&B scope and a free float being used at 25 meters, I have plenty of friends with $4500 rifles that never shoot past 100 yards. WHO THE **** CARES!!

All of my guns are free floated, my 14.5" ar to my 20" built for high power style shooting. Its one less variable to worry about, oh and most 3gun guys will tell you that there's a huge difference between 1moa and 4moa... especially at 450 meters with your feet moving.

And yes, in your hypothetical dream world of 25 yard shots a free float sounds silly, till you realize 4moa is 1 inch groups at 25 yards... and 1moa is 1/4" at 25. Makes a difference of 3/4" at that helps in any competition even ones firing at 25 yards then out to 300.

negolien
08-17-2013, 11:54 PM
Hay guyz I just got a new free floating quad rail for my CQB carbine but I can't get my old plastic handguards off.

Is there is a special tool for this?????????

The ring closest the the magwell pushes toward you're buttock which allows you to pull the plastic shield off.

Germz
08-18-2013, 12:00 AM
After reading this thread I can't believe I bought a reloading bench. who tf would need hand loaded ammo? What a waste of resources.

I know! you are soooooooo dumb lol. you should just buy all your 80gr match rounds and support our economy.

I guess that's just one of the differences between the Army and Marines.
What they say is impossible, we do daily.

Yut

Fine.

You want an example of a waste???? OK.....

Buying a Schmidt and Bender glass, a chrome plated/free-floated barrel, with an HS Precision stock, in order to shoot cans and squirrels at 25 ft. The owner of that rifle isn't going to get anywhere NEAR the potential it has by using such a way.

How about someone who has a free-floated barrel for home defense??? Again, what's the point???

You seem to have completely missed the point of the original post, which was to discuss why someone would free-float a short range rifle, and decided to start some form of flame war, by insulting me and now getting even more stupid by continuing it after I called you on it.

In short, buy the right tool for the job.

So the ACMR that you're referring to has a 20 1:7 barrel, what is short range about that?

And the only reason you've been getting lit up is if you take a step back from your own position and reread your original post, you sound hella smug. Like your comparing your mileage to the average joe who hasn't seen action, and saying they don't need mod X,Y and Z for their personal-weekend-warrior platforms. At least thats how I interpret your post and If at least one person sees it that way I guarantee others may interpret it that way too.

Besides, if I want to put a freefloat on my CQB rifle, paint it gold, throw a few flashlights, lasers and a chainsaw on it. I'll do damn well as I please and no one will say what I can and can't spend my money on.

noob_tube
08-18-2013, 12:54 AM
OP wants a discussion. Lets get a discussion going. OP, why do you care so much what people do to THEIR rifles with THEIR money?

rero360
08-18-2013, 2:42 AM
You in the army? My unit sure as **** never had troy rails in the budget

I am, although the Troy was personally purchased, with the blessing of the command, the DD was unit bought. Kind of helps that we're a team of 18 and the only team leaving the wire, only 79 people from the Brigade actually deployed, first combat deployment for the Brigade too (relatively new one)

Leatherneck714
08-18-2013, 3:39 AM
I have a buddy who runs free float and optics on his AR, I still get more hits in the black with my standard LMT with irons and plastic hand guards @ 300 yards.

It all comes down to the user and training. It doesn't matter how much money you throw into your AR and mods.

I have no use for free floats and optics. There is not much places I can shoot farther than 300 yards.

Btw most of the guys I see that fire free floats and optics are at 25 yard indoor ranges.

Merc1138
08-18-2013, 3:58 AM
I have a buddy who runs free float and optics on his AR, I still get more hits in the black with my standard LMT with irons and plastic hand guards @ 300 yards.

It all comes down to the user and training. It doesn't matter how much money you throw into your AR and mods.

I have no use for free floats and optics. There is not much places I can shoot farther than 300 yards.

Btw most of the guys I see that fire free floats and optics are at 25 yard indoor ranges.

Yeah... try telling that to these guys with irons. *psst*, just about all of those ARs(really probably is all of them) are free floated. http://www.odcmp.org/0813/default.asp?page=RIFLEPRES

Yes the user and training matter. But when you get to the limit of the equipment you have, then need to get better equipment. Since us civilians get to buy and choose our own equipment, if we want to we can make sure we start with the best since that $2-5k rifle didn't get paid for on the tax payer's dime.

The same can be said about triggers. I'm not stuck relying on something that got issued to me considering I can use it for a multitude of purposes. As a result, I'll use whatever trigger I want. Same goes for optics, irons, pistol grips, stocks, heavier bullets, muzzle devices, etc.

If you want to complain about how people choose to spend their own money on equipment they'll never use, drive along any major freeway in CA for about 20 miles and you're bound to see tons of "off road" trucks that barely ever see dirt. There's a lot more money dumped into some of those than someone's rifle at the 25 yard indoor range(I don't even think there's an indoor range in my area that allows 5.56, maybe you're seeing rimfire ARs?). I'll give you credit for one thing though, you didn't post some completely nonsense hyperbole about s&b scopes shooting soda cans at 25ft. like the OP did.

ar15barrels
08-18-2013, 7:17 AM
I thought it was use your tool as a buddy ??? :confused:

This is my RIFLE, this is my GUN... ;)

BrianRodela
08-18-2013, 7:32 AM
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20110627/NEWS/106270322/Corps-eyes-next-generation-service-rifles

Your argument is invalid. I am done with this thread.

Noonanda
08-18-2013, 10:48 AM
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20110627/NEWS/106270322/Corps-eyes-next-generation-service-rifles

Your argument is invalid. I am done with this thread.

We need to get a "like" button on here

Merc1138
08-18-2013, 11:29 AM
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20110627/NEWS/106270322/Corps-eyes-next-generation-service-rifles

Your argument is invalid. I am done with this thread.

Well so much for free floating 5.56mm rifles being unimportant.

russ69
08-18-2013, 5:18 PM
...I guess that's just one of the differences between the Army and Marines. What they say is impossible, we do daily.

It's been quite a long while since a military shooter won the National Matches with a service rifle...

Old Civilians with free float AR15s; Doing things that young military shooters never thought was possible.

MMXX
09-11-2013, 10:26 AM
:slap:

:lurk5:

:patriot:

Packy14
09-12-2013, 5:05 PM
Hey y'all.

The title says it all.

I have seen many an AR in 5.56mm with a free-floated barrel and I always catch myself thinking, "Why would they waste the materials on such a thing???" The only time I ever saw a free floated 5.56mm rifle were the Designated Marksmen using the unofficial M-16A5 in my companies squads, and it didn't have a "true" free-floated barrel. It still had the front irons on it. It was a match barrel with a match trigger assembly, but that was really it for special stuff. The rest you could find everywhere else.

Even with a match barrel, using hand-loaded ammo, you still wouldn't get much farther than 600m consistently, if someone could even do it that far. The round is too light.

So my question to everybody is this.......

Why would you free-float a battle rifle with such a small and light bullet???

To me, battle rifle means "front-line weapon system", as in every swinging dick in the grass has one for combat. They don't need the accuracy of the free-floated barrel because the majority of combat is either in an urban environment or some dense forest area, nor would they be issued the high quality ammo required to use such a thing. A door-kicking, patrol-walking, HMMWV-riding, every-day shooter will never be in a situation to utilize such a thing on a REGULAR basis.

I understand that people want to have an accurate weapon system, but as I stated before, 600m is about all you will get out a precision 5.56mm rifle and that's assuming that the weather is nice to you that day. I haven't heard of a hunter shooting that far, due to the possibility of someone else hunting the same animal so correct me if I'm wrong, but it can't be for that. Target shooting is great, but then you essentially end up with a $2,000 precision AR to punch paper with. In my opinion, that's a complete waste of materials and funds. Not to mention a rifle that will never be "maxed out", unless they go to a 1,000y/m range and from what I understand, those are few and far between.


Why not.

I'm willing to bet you don't shoot for ****. You pick the distance (100 yards or more), irons or ACOG. You use your non-free floated gun, i'll use my gun. 100$.

RuggedJay
09-12-2013, 5:13 PM
What I don't understand is the free floated stainless match barrels capable of submoa and then they throw a 4moa red dot on top of it and shoot 55fmj. You could use a crappy burned out barrel and get 4moa all day.

Alternatively, I've free floated chrome lined barrels, that are supposed to be 2moa at best, and was able to get solid 1moa or slightly smaller groups consistently.

highpower790
09-12-2013, 5:21 PM
$1,100 is all i spent to shoot tiny little groups and even if i wasnt a competitor,the barrel would be free floated.Why take shots through a barrel with a sling attached only to be the cause of your shots not hitting there target due to the barrel flexing?

RuggedJay
09-12-2013, 6:22 PM
I have a buddy who runs free float and optics on his AR, I still get more hits in the black with my standard LMT with irons and plastic hand guards @ 300 yards.

It all comes down to the user and training. It doesn't matter how much money you throw into your AR and mods.

I have no use for free floats and optics. There is not much places I can shoot farther than 300 yards.

Btw most of the guys I see that fire free floats and optics are at 25 yard indoor ranges.

What you said above is absolutely true. However, if you were shooting against yourself and he had a slightly more accurate rifle and optics that let him see the target better it MIGHT make a difference once you are shooting further out. Again I said MIGHT. There are many factors involved. Size of target, distance, shooter error, etc. I'm sure your well aware of all this.

At distance magnified optic more precise rifle is an advantage. At close range a red dot and faster rifle is an advantage. It's a spectrum.
But yeah, kicking someones arse at shooting who spent twice as much on their rifle is a special kind of satisfaction. Until, they learn how to shoot and then you'll be wanting to upgrade yours ;)

No skills+shiety gear=bad
No skills+excellent gear/Skills+shiety gear=less bad
Skills+adequate gear=good
Skills+excellent gear=better

bubbapug1
09-12-2013, 6:48 PM
You can buy a match upper from white oak precision for $800.00, slap an A2 stock on it, add a lower and RRA NM 2 stage trigger and be done for less that $1,200.00.

I've seen people shoot one across the course for a score of 790 with iron sights with 16 mph wind....

What am I missing??? The OP may not know just how well an AR can shoot at 600 yards with 80 grain SMK's.

Try that with a AK or a Remington BDL not worked over..

RuggedJay
09-12-2013, 6:50 PM
OP most people put rails on their AR for the "looks cool" factor. Its their money to waste so let them. I have free float on one AR that I build for use with magnification. The plinker uppers, I would rather spend money on ammo than put lipstick on a dog.

ar15barrels
09-12-2013, 7:52 PM
What I don't understand is the free floated stainless match barrels capable of submoa and then they throw a 4moa red dot on top of it and shoot 55fmj. You could use a crappy burned out barrel and get 4moa all day.

I can hold 1moa groups with a 4moa aiming point without any problems.

kalieracer
09-12-2013, 8:20 PM
:13: That's only because you are a goods shooter :43:


I can hold 1moa groups with a 4moa aiming point without any problems.

viper37
09-12-2013, 8:51 PM
God you Mall Ninja's are hilarious.

tal3nt
09-12-2013, 9:35 PM
I prefer a lightweight plastic handguard too, mostly because its more affordable, but I don't see any true downsides to having the barrel freefloated.. comparable to getting a $200+ trigger

ar15barrels
09-12-2013, 11:14 PM
:13: That's only because you are a goods shooter :43:

Look at this illustration:

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/4moa.gif

There are 4 pairings of circles.
Each represents a 4moa dot shown over a 5" black bullseye.
The top one is centered.
Each lower one is offset by a fraction of an MOA.

The bottom one is most obvious and easy to see.
But you can easily make out the 3rd one being off right?
How about the second one?
If you can see that the second one is off, HOW FAR off do you think it is?
Tell me HOW MUCH each of the lower 3 sets are offset.

Army GI
09-12-2013, 11:48 PM
Hey y'all.

The title says it all.

I have seen many an AR in 5.56mm with a free-floated barrel and I always catch myself thinking, "Why would they waste the materials on such a thing???" The only time I ever saw a free floated 5.56mm rifle were the Designated Marksmen using the unofficial M-16A5 in my companies squads, and it didn't have a "true" free-floated barrel. It still had the front irons on it. It was a match barrel with a match trigger assembly, but that was really it for special stuff. The rest you could find everywhere else.

Even with a match barrel, using hand-loaded ammo, you still wouldn't get much farther than 600m consistently, if someone could even do it that far. The round is too light.

So my question to everybody is this.......

Why would you free-float a battle rifle with such a small and light bullet???

To me, battle rifle means "front-line weapon system", as in every swinging dick in the grass has one for combat. They don't need the accuracy of the free-floated barrel because the majority of combat is either in an urban environment or some dense forest area, nor would they be issued the high quality ammo required to use such a thing. A door-kicking, patrol-walking, HMMWV-riding, every-day shooter will never be in a situation to utilize such a thing on a REGULAR basis.

I understand that people want to have an accurate weapon system, but as I stated before, 600m is about all you will get out a precision 5.56mm rifle and that's assuming that the weather is nice to you that day. I haven't heard of a hunter shooting that far, due to the possibility of someone else hunting the same animal so correct me if I'm wrong, but it can't be for that. Target shooting is great, but then you essentially end up with a $2,000 precision AR to punch paper with. In my opinion, that's a complete waste of materials and funds. Not to mention a rifle that will never be "maxed out", unless they go to a 1,000y/m range and from what I understand, those are few and far between.

hi I was wondering the same thing when I was trying to decide between buying another White oak upper and just a standard m4 upperI guess the answer to your question is is that most people by their guns as a hobby and not just as a tool to get a utilitarian job done. for many people including myself the truck so what you gonna buy when the time comes to buy one is based on aesthetics or trying to achieve a goal such as one minute of angle simply for the fun of it. sure spending $900 on an upper that could put shots right on top of each other is fun and everything but I decided that since I shoot targets that are human sized and not the size of a dime most of the time that it would be better for me to save the extra money I would have spent on an expensive upper and buy more ammo

Army GI
09-13-2013, 12:23 AM
by the way I apologize for the misspellings I'm testing out voice recognition on my phone apparently it needs a little bit more work

6mmintl
09-13-2013, 6:29 AM
Free floating a battle weapon is not important.

Free floating a target/accuracy weapon is important to a RIFLEMAN.

Nicoman
09-13-2013, 10:34 AM
I put a free floating rail on my AR for the same reason I made it FDE... So people thing I look cool of course :cool2:

tacticalcity
09-13-2013, 2:56 PM
By that standard you might as well just get an AK variant since accuracy isn't important to you.
I guess my match grade handloads and scope are a waste too. I mean why would you want something to be a battle rifle and super accurate right?

Accuracy is a relative term.

Acceptable accuracy when taking a 1000 yard shot is one thing.

Acceptable accuracy during CQB clearing a house is a totally different animal.

"Accuracy is final" is a really cool sounding phrase- but even the guy who said it was not talking about accuracy in the same terms a lot of the people who quote him are. He meant that if you miss the target it doesn't matter how fast you were. He was not putting every single round through the same hole during a face to face gun fight. If your rounds are touching is CQB...you're going too damn slow.

So other factors like barrel length, weight, speed at which you are shooting, and a ton of other factors all come into play when choosing the right too for the job. If you completely sacrifice those for the sake of 1000 yard accuracy you're making a poor choice. That is what the OP is getting at - I think.

When you setup your AR you should be careful that the cool factor is not driving your accessory choices more so than your true intended purpose for the rifle. If all you do is plink then it doesn't matter. But if you have a realistic goal in mind for how that rifle is to be used, then make sure those choices optimize that rifle in that role. Don't try and make one rifle a "do all" rifle. Because if you try and make your rifle a precision rifle and CQB rifle at the same time it will do neither well.

Packy14
09-13-2013, 3:13 PM
Accuracy is a relative term.

Acceptable accuracy when taking a 1000 yard shot is one thing.

Acceptable accuracy during CQB clearing a house is a totally different animal.

"Accuracy is final" is a really cool sounding phrase- but even the guy who said it was not talking about accuracy in the same terms a lot of the people who quote him are. He meant that if you miss the target it doesn't matter how fast you were. He was not putting every single round through the same hole during a face to face gun fight. If your rounds are touching is CQB...you're going too damn slow.

So other factors like barrel length, weight, speed at which you are shooting, and a ton of other factors all come into play when choosing the right too for the job. If you completely sacrifice those for the sake of 1000 yard accuracy you're making a poor choice. That is what the OP is getting at - I think.

When you setup your AR you should be careful that the cool factor is not driving your accessory choices more so than your true intended purpose for the rifle. If all you do is plink then it doesn't matter. But if you have a realistic goal in mind for how that rifle is to be used, then make sure those choices optimize that rifle in that role. Don't try and make one rifle a "do all" rifle. Because if you try and make your rifle a precision rifle and CQB rifle at the same time it will do neither well.

very true. I am building a 3-gun rifle. I am putting parts that perform much faster/better than milspec (JP light weight setup with gas turned down to minimum needed to cycle) but I would not trust my life to. I have a more conservative setup for that.

1911 .45
10-05-2013, 10:55 AM
Now I'm not from here and come from a so called "free state" where we shot from canyon to canyon quite often, but I'm having trouble understanding this. No offense to the OP as I too have said some "unclear" things in the past.

BUT.....

I just picked up a 20" free floater and it's a nail driver at 600+ with the 77 grain ammo I've been shooting out of it. Which also makes it very good at 100, 200, 300, 400 etc etc. Why not have the option to shoot from 50 and all the way up to 100 meters with the same weapon. I don't see the problem with having an accurate weapon.

TheExiled
10-05-2013, 10:59 AM
Same as asking: "Why do you need a car with more than 100 horsepower or 4wd? A 80's Civic will go down the road just the same"

SoldierLife7
10-05-2013, 11:31 AM
The funnay is....

Every single Marine has to qualify at 500 METERS with a bone stock M16-M4 rifle. When I did it it was a M16A1 with 55 grain FMJs.

With open sights.

I guess that's just one of the differences between the Army and Marines.
What they say is impossible, we do daily.


THIS ^ !!!

Semper Fi!

section31
10-05-2013, 11:43 AM
For 10,000 years or so of pre-history, the rock and the sharp stick were used by "front line Infantry". The sharp stick and its variants probably killed many times more people than all firearms. The stick is rugged and effective. At close range, it is more deadly than a phaser.

I don't need a battle rifle or a sharp stick. I like very accurate rifles. Even if the .223 round is only really dangerous inside 600 yards, what if I want to shoot something small inside 600. Form follows function.

I really enjoyed fighting guys in Afghanistan using AKs. Beyond 100 yards, you were pretty safe. If I wanted to kill something 500 yards away, the M-4 wasn't the first choice, even if there was a Marine around to shoot it. We didn't have any bad guys stand still in front of a 6 foot square target frame on the 500 yard line of the KD range where the Marines are trained to shoot.

Steve_In_29
10-05-2013, 9:05 PM
For 10,000 years or so of pre-history, the rock and the sharp stick were used by "front line Infantry". The sharp stick and its variants probably killed many times more people than all firearms. The stick is rugged and effective. At close range, it is more deadly than a phaser.

I don't need a battle rifle or a sharp stick. I like very accurate rifles. Even if the .223 round is only really dangerous inside 600 yards, what if I want to shoot something small inside 600. Form follows function.

I really enjoyed fighting guys in Afghanistan using AKs. Beyond 100 yards, you were pretty safe. If I wanted to kill something 500 yards away, the M-4 wasn't the first choice, even if there was a Marine around to shoot it. We didn't have any bad guys stand still in front of a 6 foot square target frame on the 500 yard line of the KD range where the Marines are trained to shoot.
Ah it seems the mind numbing combination of ignorance and jealousy once again combines in an attempt at an insult.

That 6 foot target frame is just that...a target FRAME. The actual TARGET Marines are shooting at is a man-sized silhouette and just as in real life, the only shots that count are ones that hit the TARGET. Also just like in real life, the bad guy will always be standing in front of something, so the frame is immaterial to the equation.

As I have posted before, that feeling of safety from an AK at other then point blank range, our military enjoys is only due to the fact that we never came up against guys that REALLY knew how to employ and take care of it. The opinion of the AKs effectiveness would be GREATLY changed had we ever gone up against front line Russian troops.

Warhawk014
10-05-2013, 11:12 PM
honestly i dont care what someone else does to their rifle or how they shoot it. its their money , they earned it, let them spend it any way they like. as long as they enjoy the rifle then they win. and yes i have an acog sitting on a my free floated 16' mid length spikes ar pattern rifle. and i shoot it from a bench. do i care what others think. not really. gonna get another acog here really soon and put it on another 16' barreled free floated upper.

6mmintl
10-06-2013, 4:56 AM
There is a significant difference between a door kicking combat soldier and a "Rifleman".

All Marines know the difference.

jarhead714
10-06-2013, 4:58 AM
Aaaaaggggghhhhhhh!

a1rfreshener
10-06-2013, 8:54 PM
its true it wont really make a difference within 100 yards which most people shoot at due to the range they shoot at, but i believe a good trigger and ammo will make the most noticeable progressions in a rifle than a free floated hand gaurd haha. just keep shooting and youll know what ur rifle likes and ur own limitations.

1859sharps
10-07-2013, 11:48 AM
Even with a match barrel, using hand-loaded ammo, you still wouldn't get much farther than 600m consistently, if someone could even do it that far. The round is too light.

I suspect there are a whole bunch of people who migrate to camp perry once a year that would laugh you right out of this thread.

the biggest problem with your opening post... you need to decide if you want to discuss the needs of and what is practical for a front line infantry man

OR....

needs of precision shooting in a wide range of situations ranging from combat, to police work, to competition, to fun weekend at the range.


mixing all these different end uses to try and make a point actually doesn't help support your end conclusion. quite the opposite.

MapleSyrupSmuggler
10-07-2013, 12:25 PM
I don't understand all the free float and accuracy madness either but whatever floats yer boat I guess. I myself am just interested in it being as short as legally possible and being as light as possible as long as it shoot around 3 moa.

russ69
10-07-2013, 5:31 PM
I suspect there are a whole bunch of people who migrate to camp perry once a year that would laugh you right out of this thread...

The OP never heard of the Farr trophy (1000 yard service rifle).

gunhohulk
10-07-2013, 8:59 PM
Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't a battle rifle a specific class of firearm? More specifically one that shoots a full power rifle cartridge IE M1 Garand, M14, FAL, WWII bolt guns.

The AR's that you're referencing would fall more in line with a civilian version of an Assault Rifle(select fire with and intermediate cartridge). The modern sporting rifle if you will.

70 blazer
10-07-2013, 10:31 PM
I FEEL DUMBER NOW AFTER READING OPS POST

tanglediver
10-07-2013, 11:26 PM
We were taught that with the terminal ballistics of the XM 193 NATO, the most you would get on average was 600 meters. The explanation I got, was that typically the round had a great tendency to tumble after that distance. So, we called that the "maximum effective range".

I always figured...if the bullet will travel farther, just raise the muzzle. Tumbling bullets suck to get hit with all the same.


I am gonna free-float my rifle, but if I could go back in time and get back my old A1, I would do it in a heartbeat. :oji: