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View Full Version : Why our LEO's have no clue as to whats legal.


brianm767
01-01-2008, 12:11 PM
My son is a Sheriff deputie, he often calls me and asks is this legal or I saw this last night, was that legal? it's sad, he says they get absolutely no training on whats legal and whats not, they were handed out a small flyer to clarify to them what is legal and whats not when it comes to assault rifles,, but its all legal talk and just refers them to different sections of laws? like 12280(b) CPC Unlawful possession of an unregistered assault weapon etc...

it also gives the definitions of an Assault weapon as, and I qoute

"a light and compact selective fire automatic rifle firing a cartridge of such power that it can deliver effective fire to a range of about 500 meters, but at the same time will permit the weapon to be fired in automatic mode from the shoulder"

This is put out by the CA DOJ and titled Armed prohibitied reference list.

It no wonder our LEO's, have no clue as to what the laws regarding firearms are, they need to drive around with a law library and have hours to spend looking through the books to find out they still don't know what is legal and whats not.

My father ,a retired CHP capt, and my cousin , a CHP patrolman also say they have no ideal whats legal or not any more, my cousin has never heard of a OLL, he said if it's an AR type weapon, if it's not registered as an Assault weapon, it's illegal, and who ever I find with one, better have proof it's registered. well that was before I explained an OLL to him, and also showed him the DOJ the definition of a detachable magizine, and showed him alot of reference material, now he knows,

As an airline mechanic we are allways getting training by manufactures or by our QC dept as to the laws, (FAR's) why doesn't the DOJ set up a team to give instructions to LEO's as to whats legal and whats not?

But then again, even their own little reference list says my registered assault weapons do not meet their definition of a assault weapon, as it's explained to LEO's?

kermit315
01-01-2008, 12:36 PM
becaues DOJ doesnt care. Until they get sued, it is us versus LE and we are the ones getting hassled, and I am sure DOJ just loves that. They probably figure that it will scare off people from building OLL's.

Just my opinion.

Jamie

Sgt Raven
01-01-2008, 12:41 PM
becaues DOJ doesnt care. Until they get sued, it is us versus LE and we are the ones getting hassled, and I am sure DOJ just loves that. They probably figure that it will scare off people from building OLL's.

Just my opinion.

Jamie

Yep, they love to spread FUD

M. Sage
01-01-2008, 1:25 PM
it also gives the definitions of an Assault weapon as, and I qoute

"a light and compact selective fire automatic rifle firing a cartridge of such power that it can deliver effective fire to a range of about 500 meters, but at the same time will permit the weapon to be fired in automatic mode from the shoulder"

That's pretty close to the definition of a true assault rifle (though it should be more like 300 meters, IMO, and they forgot the "intermediate cartridge." A .308 rifle is not a true assault rifle.)

So, by their definition, AKs aren't assault weapons (effective range: 300 meters.) Sweet! :rolleyes:

+1 to the DOJ not giving a damn. They should go into mushroom farming...

BillCA
01-01-2008, 2:22 PM
I'm wondering what ever happened to the POST standards and training required under 832pc?

If he doesn't know what's legal or not, then something went wrong in his POST certification process.

Get him a belated Christmas present of a hardbound copy of the California Penal Code to carry in his briefcase. Tell him to pick a new code section every day to review and learn while he's eating lunch or before his shift starts. Just knowing it's "in the book" is a start. Knowing the details makes him a better cop.

When it comes to firearms laws, however, many cops are not shooting enthusiasts and their eyes glaze over at all the details. Thus they end up like your son - "Bolt rifle good - Black rifle bad!"

I'm beginning to think it's time to build my own OLL and have some discussions with lawyers (Chuck M.) and DOJ officials before volunteering to show local PD officers how a "black rifle" can be legal.

M. Sage
01-01-2008, 2:24 PM
I'm wondering what ever happened to the POST standards and training required under 832pc?

If he doesn't know what's legal or not, then something went wrong in his POST certification process.

You'd have to add about 6 months to the POST process. The sheer volume of crap in PC and VC alone is disgusting.

brianm767
01-01-2008, 2:54 PM
I'm wondering what ever happened to the POST standards and training required under 832pc?

If he doesn't know what's legal or not, then something went wrong in his POST certification process.

Get him a belated Christmas present of a hardbound copy of the California Penal Code to carry in his briefcase. Tell him to pick a new code section every day to review and learn while he's eating lunch or before his shift starts. Just knowing it's "in the book" is a start. Knowing the details makes him a better cop.

When it comes to firearms laws, however, many cops are not shooting enthusiasts and their eyes glaze over at all the details. Thus they end up like your son - "Bolt rifle good - Black rifle bad!"



I'm beginning to think it's time to build my own OLL and have some discussions with lawyers (Chuck M.) and DOJ officials before volunteering to show local PD officers how a "black rifle" can be legal.


My son does have a copy of the PC and VC, but where is the definition of a detachable mag in there? or where is the explanation of an OLL in there? are those covered?

But I agree, there should be much more training when it comes to fire arms, my son is a little better informed than most of the other guys he works with since he is a gun enthusiast, and he's only been a LEO for three years now,
but he does not carry around a list of the OLL manufactures or models with him.

But he says most of the folks he comes across with firearms are not the average Joe just out having some fun, almost none of the guns he's come across were legal, or I should say, legally owned or carried by the person who had possession of them, he works graves in the Stockton area.

hawk81
01-01-2008, 3:04 PM
Yeah, I was out in the desert 1 year ago and almost got arrested because I had A gun the police thought was a (so-called assault weapon). The gun was a m-96 robinson arms recon rifle. It did not have a pistol grip on it. I was using pre-ban 30 round ar-15 magazines. Luckily I knew what the law was and I got them to contact California DOJ regarding this rifle and the magazines. I did however sit in the back of their patrol car for about 30 minutes. At least the Air Conditioning was going. But the officers had no idea what the laws were. What is funny about this is that I was out in the middle of nowhere and a Riverside sherriffs helicopter spotted me and had me drive to the main road where these Lake Elsinore police officers where waiting for me. Oh and both officers had sig 226 pistols, I know for sure because they were pointing right in my face. I swear this is a gestapo state, I will be glad when I move out.

bluestaterebel
01-01-2008, 3:11 PM
It no wonder our LEO's, have no clue as to what the laws regarding firearms are, they need to drive around with a law library and have hours to spend looking through the books to find out they still don't know what is legal and whats not.

i have alearned alot here. also learned that there is so much i dont know. i read posts here on a daily basis learning new things all of the time. i consider you guys the experts and i frequently see the experts are not always sure of every law. leos are not experts in specific laws and they are not supposed to be. leos deal with all of the laws and yes there are plenty of books in that law library.

in the academy leos are "scared straight" about guns. because guns kill leos. you gotta watch the bad guys hands at all times. you gotta pay attention while you approach a car or a house door cause you might get shot. all of the horror storys are told.

i think while this training is necessary it makes some leos think guns are bad. and they forget that more good people have guns than bad guys.
the truth is that leos dont come into contact with guns as much as you would thinkand therfore have limited knowledge of all the insane laws

even for traffic violations, leos carry "cheaters" so they can look up the violations that are not so common. or if a leo doesnt regularly write citations he may need a cheater to look up even the most common violation.

there is no way a leo can know every law. although, people expect leos to know every law which puts leos in a position where they have to admit that they dont know, that could be hard for some. the fact that your son can approach you and admit that he doesnt know is a good thing. he probably does it because he doesnt think that you will judge him for not knowing or worst, post it online

MedSpec65
01-01-2008, 3:12 PM
Yeah, I was out in the desert 1 year ago and almost got arrested because I had A gun the police thought was a (so-called assault weapon). The gun was a m-96 robinson arms recon rifle. It did not have a pistol grip on it. I was using pre-ban 30 round ar-15 magazines. Luckily I knew what the law was and I got them to contact California DOJ regarding this rifle and the magazines. I did however sit in the back of their patrol car for about 30 minutes. At least the Air Conditioning was going. But the officers had no idea what the laws were. What is funny about this is that I was out in the middle of nowhere and a Riverside sherriffs helicopter spotted me and had me drive to the main road where these Lake Elsinore police officers where waiting for me. Oh and both officers had sig 226 pistols, I know for sure because they were pointing right in my face. I swear this is a gestapo state, I will be glad when I move out.This story says it all.

gwl
01-01-2008, 3:17 PM
The California Vehicle Code book is as big as the yellow pages. :eek:

bluestaterebel
01-01-2008, 3:24 PM
The California Vehicle Code book is as big as the yellow pages. :eek:

The penal code is twice as big

Dump1567
01-01-2008, 3:51 PM
It's not just gun laws. They're passing 700 to 1,000 new laws every year.

Here's just a few.

You can now donate Aids infested sperm & at least one orig. band member will be at that concert you go to.:rolleyes:

Who thinks up this crap?

chuck762
01-01-2008, 4:25 PM
Officers not knowing what is legal or not has been going on ever since the first 89 ban and has just gotten worse.
While shooting up in the Angeles national forest at one of the open ranges (remember when we could actually do that?) myself and a friend were harassed by a sheriff and a ranger over our AR15s and bennelli shotguns. The 94 crime bill was recently passed so the 2 very uninformed officers thought possession of these weapon were now illegal and they wanted to haul us and out weapons in . After informing them that the law just banned the production of the weapons and hi cap mags and a lot of radio calls then hemming and hawing on their part they said "today is your lucky day and we're giving you a break by not arresting you". Gotta love the unknowing. Sadly I think most serious gun owners in cali. know more about the gun laws than most LEOs.

Hunter
01-01-2008, 4:35 PM
I'm wondering what ever happened to the POST standards and training required under 832pc?

If he doesn't know what's legal or not, then something went wrong in his POST certification process. .....

As another recent graduate already noted here (and at the Sacramento DOJ meeting in August 2006), the AW section that WAS in the POST training was deleted. This was the case for his class and I'm under the impression it is across the board as well.

WokMaster1
01-01-2008, 4:40 PM
I wonder how much it cost to put an info ad on a billboard. Or one of those roving trucks.
"Do you know it's legal to own an AR15 or an AK in California? For more info visit www.calguns/offlist. com" - something like that!

Post one for a month outside each Police or Sheriff HQ & one for 1 year across the street from DOJ in Sacramento.:p

Greg-Dawg
01-01-2008, 4:41 PM
Maybe because LEOs are too busy battling bad guys and don't have time to read about Monsterman grips.

But again, there aren't many LEOs that are gun nuts like calgunners.

1911su16b870
01-01-2008, 4:45 PM
IMO it is every LEO's duty to become educated on the PC and VC. Next time the OPs son asks what is legal or not, tell him to look it up and discuss it with him after he has! With regards to PC12000, no training is given in the Academy on AWs, but I and many on Calguns know what is or is not legal (case law such as Harrot and Clark) with many thanks to BWiese and Hoffmag
:King:
What is truely wonderful about the US is the dissemination of knowledge through the internet and Calguns.

USN CHIEF
01-01-2008, 4:47 PM
LEO's should be instructed to get a CAL GUNS membership and be required to surf it for about 30 minutes each day before their shift starts. Or better yet, they should be instructed to check CAL GUNS first before making any arrests or trying to seize guns...:43: Yeah, but this will never happen because if it makes sense, it is not right!!!!:eek:

bluestaterebel
01-01-2008, 5:04 PM
IMO it is every LEO's duty to become educated on the PC and VC

they are. that doesnt mean that they can know every detail, i'm sure that's not what you mean. most of the gun laws leos deal with are unregistered handgun, excon with a gun, gangster with a gun, concealed handgun. not flash hiders/brakes, gripless, evil features.

Sgt Raven
01-01-2008, 5:14 PM
It's not just gun laws. They're passing 700 to 1,000 new laws every year.

Here's just a few.

You can now donate Aids infested sperm & at least one orig. band member will be at that concert you go to.:rolleyes:

Who thinks up this crap?

We need one new law, one that says for every new law enacted, they have to repeal another law. ;)

retired
01-01-2008, 5:16 PM
Chuck, I probably knew and even possibly worked with the deputy you met up with as I worked the station that patrolled that area.:whistling:

There should have been and should be intensive training along those lines and info re OLLs should be brought up at briefings. I left patrol in 97 when promoted and went to the jail, so I don't have any idea if info about OLLs are being briefed. I hope so.

The OP said his son told him most of his contacts in the field were with people with illegal weapons. That is the way it was all of the time for me. To give an example; I spent 15yrs. in patrol (early 80s to late 90s) and never once knowingly came into contact with someone with a ccw. That is a shame, but not surprising.

metalhead357
01-01-2008, 5:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwl http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=912048#post912048)
The California Vehicle Code book is as big as the yellow pages. :eek:

The penal code is twice as big


and 99% of it it needless crap, redundant crap, misrepresenting crap, dubious crap, infringing crap, mindless crap, conflicting crap, and poorly written crap.

And yet to live in Cali....you gotta know this crap.

I guess I AM in the crap business:mad:

Sgt Raven
01-01-2008, 5:35 PM
I know everyone of us has heard the old line that “ignorance of the law is no excuse”. Well that should apply to them too. :rolleyes: ;)

SnWnMe
01-01-2008, 5:38 PM
Maybe because LEOs are too busy battling bad guys and don't have time to read about Monsterman grips.

But again, there aren't many LEOs that are gun nuts like calgunners.

They're not battling bad guys. They're harassing folks who are plinking with OLLs. I guess that gives the impression that they are doing their job while staying safely away from the real criminals who might hurt them.

eta34
01-01-2008, 5:55 PM
As an active LEO, I will again explain how it works. We are not given ANY education on the OLL phenomenon. I graduated the academy over 8 years ago; this wasn't an issue then, so it wasn't covered in the academy. I keep up on all of the current case law and legal updates; OLL has not been covered in any of that material. The DOJ has sent departments nothing in this area.

So, where am I supposed to learn about this as an average, non-gun nut LEO? Since I am one of the gun nuts, I came here for other reasons. I then learned about the whole OLL thing, purchased one, and have tried to educate my fellow LEO's.

The information will only be spread by us (gun enthusiasts). If we wait for the government to do it for us, it will never happen.

bluestaterebel
01-01-2008, 5:56 PM
They're not battling bad guys. They're harassing folks who are plinking with OLLs. I guess that gives the impression that they are doing their job while staying safely away from the real criminals who might hurt them.i think he meant leos in general. staying away from real criminals? i guess thats why they became cops.:confused:

bluestaterebel
01-01-2008, 6:15 PM
:rant:not that there shouldnt be any training on firearms and olls but all this call for extensive training on olls is a little selfish. SORRY, but there SHOULD be extensive training for leo's! in tactics, shooting, basically dealing with the bad guys so they can go home with their families everynight.

there are some a**holes on the job and there will probably always be, but if you really want leos to know more about olls this is the best place to start. do you really think ca doj wants to acknowledge that olls are legal?

there is probably a leo in every major dept in calif here on calguns. manyothers from pds all over california. obviously these guys are trying to educate themselves and im sure educate other leos while they are at it.

the best way for a leo to learn about oll is to have one. true,not all leos are gun enthusiasts but who is not in awe of the black rifle. i have turned many leos onto olls and hopefully they will do the same thing. it is being done all over california with the help of calguns, the last thing you want to do is drive off the fellow leos on calguns with all of your bashing. we get enough bashing at work. believe me. :rant:

hoffmang
01-01-2008, 7:21 PM
Let me add something to clarify.

CA DOJ BoF is not educating LEA's because Alison Merrilees simply does not want the truth to be known by law enforcement due to her political inclinations.

It's that simple.

-Gene

tango-52
01-01-2008, 8:24 PM
I have also been told that the "problem" with OLLs, bullet buttons and MMGs is that they violate the "spirit" of the law, so enforcement will be done regardless of what the letter of the law may say. Can't that Ninth Circuit ruling about the guy falsely arrested for counterfeiting which held the officers personally responsible be used against those individuals that choose to ignore the letter of the law in order to enforce their interpretation of what the lawmakers' intent? :43:

Spaceghost
01-01-2008, 8:50 PM
When I did the practical rifle course at Frontsight w/ BB63squid, we were there with a lot of LEO from SB. It took quite a while for them to realize we were just good civilians wanting to protect our familes. No weird guys the ATF was watching, just guys wanting to learn how to use a carbine and be effective with it.

We had several conersations about Cali legal firearms. When I said, "Hey look, you can lock me in the back of your car and there isn't a damn thing I would do about it, so you can investigate the legality of my firearms.", they just stopped. People don't get placed in patrol cars are calm or even rational. They aren't mentioning to officers the places they can find information about the DETAILS of what is legal in this state. One of the more senior officers said, "That will only help you out, being cool while I take the time to make sure all my ducks are in a row will go a lon way to helping you out." I knew we made a big difference to those officers. All civilians aren't hostiles, and maybe there is a lot more to this gun crap then I was trained in.

5968
01-01-2008, 9:17 PM
My son is a Sheriff deputie, he often calls me and asks is this legal or I saw this last night, was that legal? it's sad, he says they get absolutely no training on whats legal and whats not, they were handed out a small flyer to clarify to them what is legal and whats not when it comes to assault rifles,, but its all legal talk and just refers them to different sections of laws? like 12280(b) CPC Unlawful possession of an unregistered assault weapon etc...

it also gives the definitions of an Assault weapon as, and I qoute

"a light and compact selective fire automatic rifle firing a cartridge of such power that it can deliver effective fire to a range of about 500 meters, but at the same time will permit the weapon to be fired in automatic mode from the shoulder"

This is put out by the CA DOJ and titled Armed prohibitied reference list.

It no wonder our LEO's, have no clue as to what the laws regarding firearms are, they need to drive around with a law library and have hours to spend looking through the books to find out they still don't know what is legal and whats not.

My father ,a retired CHP capt, and my cousin , a CHP patrolman also say they have no ideal whats legal or not any more, my cousin has never heard of a OLL, he said if it's an AR type weapon, if it's not registered as an Assault weapon, it's illegal, and who ever I find with one, better have proof it's registered. well that was before I explained an OLL to him, and also showed him the DOJ the definition of a detachable magizine, and showed him alot of reference material, now he knows,

As an airline mechanic we are allways getting training by manufactures or by our QC dept as to the laws, (FAR's) why doesn't the DOJ set up a team to give instructions to LEO's as to whats legal and whats not?

But then again, even their own little reference list says my registered assault weapons do not meet their definition of a assault weapon, as it's explained to LEO's?

Simple answer: There are too many laws on the books for any one person to keep track of.

metalhead357
01-01-2008, 10:07 PM
Simple answer: There are to many laws on the books for any one person to keep track of.

But back to the catch-22; Ignorance of the law is no excuse....while also conversely wedged up against-- "You aint qualified to intrepret the law...get a lawyer" and slammed up against 'It aint what a lawyer says...it what a judge tells you it is..or the jury deciding it is...........

tyrist
01-02-2008, 5:57 PM
Like in many such cases it is up to officers to use their own time and money to train/educate themselves. Many do just that.

MG34
01-02-2008, 7:06 PM
I would hate to think what would happen if LEOs came up on someone that had a semi-auto 1919A4

metalhead357
01-02-2008, 7:09 PM
I would hate to think what would happen if LEOs came up on someone that had a semi-auto 1919A4

IIRC correctly CSA cannoneer DID have just that happen......belonged to a friend who was in LEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AJAX22
01-02-2008, 7:25 PM
I just wanted to chime in and thank the LEO's who've posted in this thread, It goes a long way to reducing the 'us vs. them' mentality.

Thanks...

and now back on topic.

bluestaterebel
01-02-2008, 8:30 PM
I just wanted to chime in and thank the LEO's who've posted in this thread, It goes a long way to reducing the 'us vs. them' mentality.

Thanks...

and now back on topic.

although it seems slow, more and more leos are getting it, remember this is a grass roots effort:patriot: