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MakeYaBootyBurn
08-11-2013, 11:20 PM
I've read a couple of comments on here that say that thee Remington 700 sps tactical isn't a good option for long distance shooting.

However at my local range I've seen people hit steel at 600 yards with an 16" AR-15. ?!
yet a 20" bull barrel .308 is only good for 300 yards?!

can someone please explain? im really interested in the Ruger scout SS because it's an 18" barrel. or even the Remington 700 SPS tac. (more of an affordable option)

I didn't ask to start fights so please be civil. thanks.

U5512
08-11-2013, 11:28 PM
I've read a couple of comments on here that say that thee Remington 700 sps tactical isn't a good option for long distance shooting.

Those comments must came from those who never owned / shot a Remington 700 SPS Tactical.

lost puppy
08-12-2013, 12:08 AM
that rem is a very accurate rifle. however, I like a 22 or 24 " barrel for my long range stuff.

ar15barrels
08-12-2013, 1:00 AM
"Long range" is beyond 600yds.
"Intermediate range" is 200yds to 600yds.
"Short range" is inside of 200yds.

For precision (1 moa and smaller) targets,
A 20" 308 is ok for intermediate range.
A 26" barrel is better at 400yds and beyond.
A 26" barrel is way better than a 20" barrel for long range use.

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-12-2013, 4:05 AM
26" ? damn! why does the Mosin suck so much on 28"?!
kidding
can you get good performance from 24"? or 22"?

rero360
08-12-2013, 7:38 AM
I've taken my .308 out to 1005 meters with a 22" Hart barrel on it with decent results, could have been better, I'll blame the misses to my inexperience at the time both with the distance and the wind. With the training and range time I have received since then, I feel a lot more confident at distance.

I do believe ar15barrels was there for that shoot, spring 2010, up near Edwards. Hows the back doing brother? Hope you are healing up quickly.

mixicus
08-12-2013, 8:19 AM
Define your needs/wants then you'll get more applicable answers. Are you talking long range plinking? Entry level competitons (if so which)? Do you/will you reload? What are your expectations?

You mention 'hitting steel' at 600 with an AR. Well how big is that steel? A 4MOA plate at 600 yards with a scoped AR, good ammo and rested/supported isn't that special in a competition mind set. That same AR won't necessarily be banging a 1-2 MOA target at 600.

A Rem700 in .308 is fine for many things. If you are interested in competition (beyond entry level with a stock rifle), performance in less than ideal conditions and/or spending the majority of rounds at 600+, there are better calibers. However if you don't/won't reload it doesn't make a lot of sense to look at those calibers.

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-12-2013, 8:53 AM
Define your needs/wants then you'll get more applicable answers. Are you talking long range plinking? Entry level competitons (if so which)? Do you/will you reload? What are your expectations?

You mention 'hitting steel' at 600 with an AR. Well how big is that steel? A 4MOA plate at 600 yards with a scoped AR, good ammo and rested/supported isn't that special in a competition mind set. That same AR won't necessarily be banging a 1-2 MOA target at 600.

A Rem700 in .308 is fine for many things. If you are interested in competition (beyond entry level with a stock rifle), performance in less than ideal conditions and/or spending the majority of rounds at 600+, there are better calibers. However if you don't/won't reload it doesn't make a lot of sense to look at those calibers.

1 moa at 1000 yards?! or is that a dream

I wouldn't mind reloading. but know nothing about it

turners has a Savage fcp .308 24" barrel. is that good for past 600 yards?

Hairball
08-12-2013, 9:07 AM
The Remington 700 SPS is what many first time shooters select as their first introduction rifle to LR shooting. The issue with the SPS is the stock, many buy a SPS knowing that the stock will be removed and replaced with a better option. If you wanted to stay with a Remington, you could start out with a 700 police or 5R (does come with a H/S stock) which is much better than the SPS stock. While the SPS factory rifle can hit steel target at moderate range 600-1000 yards, the rifle is not very accurate if you are worried about keeping smaller group sizes. If you want to shoot for precision, keep the 700 action, replace the barrel, stock, and trigger and you are on your way to a more accurate rifle. The .308 is a good round out to around 800 yards, beyond that the ballistics really fall apart. Yes it can go to 1000 or a little more but there are better options than the .308 if you intend at staying at 1000 or beyond.

Mute
08-12-2013, 9:13 AM
26" ? damn! why does the Mosin suck so much on 28"?!
kidding
can you get good performance from 24"? or 22"?

I've taken 22" and 20" barrels to a 1000 and slightly beyond with consistent results. Granted, these were all match grade barrels, but it is quite possible. The slight loss in velocity compared to a longer barrel can give you some trouble at longer distances but some of that can be overcome by reloading to higher velocities.

As far as the SPS is concerned, it's not a custom gun but I can't imagine that it won't give you good results even to 600 yards. Every SPS that I've ever shot has been at least sub MOA which is more than good enough for hitting man sized targets assuming your marksmanship skills are up to task.

milotrain
08-12-2013, 12:13 PM
The slight loss in velocity compared to a longer barrel can give you some trouble at longer distances but some of that can be overcome by reloading to higher velocities.

THE trick to consistency at long range with any barrel is figuring out how to keep the bullet transonic past the target. If you can get a bullet flying out the end of the muzzle fast enough to do that then it doesn't matter what the length is. However, we are all limited by physics and chemistry, so longer barrels are a nice solution to the problem.

Ahhnother8
08-12-2013, 1:08 PM
However, we are all limited by physics and chemistry, so longer barrels are an EASY solution to the problem.

Gyroscopic stability is also critical.

russ69
08-12-2013, 1:34 PM
"Long range" is beyond 600yds.
"Intermediate range" is 200yds to 600yds.
"Short range" is inside of 200yds...

Randall,

Official NRA target shooting has mid range at 600 yards and long range is 800, 900 and 1000 yards. That's the definition I use so I conform to national shooting organization terminology.

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-12-2013, 3:14 PM
I guess I have a lot to learn

anti
08-12-2013, 3:28 PM
Randall,

Official NRA target shooting has mid range at 600 yards and long range is 800, 900 and 1000 yards. That's the definition I use so I conform to national shooting organization terminology.

Jesus, and I thought it was a challenge hitting the 300m target during BRM... then again we used irons, of course! :p

Mr Blu
08-12-2013, 4:00 PM
I own a Remington SPS Tactical 308cal and what sold me on it was this video.
They guys in the video take every precaution to make sure the video is legit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xesBYKRzqew


I was already looking at it because of it's specs : 308cal, heavy barrel, Remi 700 action.

janus408
08-12-2013, 4:02 PM
The standard 20" SPS is a 1-12" twist, which means you cant take advantage of heavier bullets that are better for long range (800-1000yards).

The AAC-SD is a 20" but 1-10" twist, a better option.

18" at 1k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15qj032UJ1I)

Yes, you lose out on some velocity when you go to a shorter barrel, which makes longer shots more difficult. But a shorter barrel is more rigid, which yields an accuracy improvement.

So should you shoot an 18" barrel at 1k yards? Probably not, it isn't that efficient in the application. But you can. It is a balancing act. A 26" barrel is not needed to shoot 1k yards. 20-24" is what I see as popular, but the popularity depends on the application. Fclass guys shoot like 30" barrels because they dont have to move their rifles. Tactical guys shoot shorter because they want the maneuverability and weight loss.

308 can take you to 1k yards, but that is near its upper limit. If you are focused on shooting that far, why not a Savage LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor or 260 Remington? The 6.5 has good factory ammo if you dont reload, although it is expensive(ish). The gun itself can be had for around $930, and it comes with a decent stock (unlike the Remington SPS which needs to be replaced immediately).

Personally I would just get the Remington 700 AAC-SD in .308. But if you are dead set on 1k yards, and are able to shoot it regularly, why not get something that better fits the role?

milotrain
08-12-2013, 4:40 PM
Jesus, and I thought it was a challenge hitting the 300m target during BRM... then again we used irons, of course! :p

All NRA and CMP competition (that we are talking about in this thread) is done with irons. Yes Virginia 1000 yards with irons. In fact the AMU just shot a team match at 1k, cleaned it (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/08/usamu-team-shoots-record-800-57x-at-1000-yards/). LIKE A BOSS!

anti
08-12-2013, 5:03 PM
All NRA and CMP competition (that we are talking about in this thread) is done with irons. Yes Virginia 1000 yards with irons. In fact the AMU just shot a team match at 1k, cleaned it (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/08/usamu-team-shoots-record-800-57x-at-1000-yards/). LIKE A BOSS!

O_O eeeeeeeeeeeshhh

russ69
08-12-2013, 5:14 PM
All NRA and CMP competition (that we are talking about in this thread) is done with irons. Yes Virginia 1000 yards with irons...

For the long range championship, you can shoot service rifle (irons), match rifle with irons, or match rifle with scope. Separate trophy for each plus the overall combos.

CobraRed
08-12-2013, 5:22 PM
1 moa at 1000 yards?! or is that a dream

I wouldn't mind reloading. but know nothing about it

turners has a Savage fcp .308 24" barrel. is that good for past 600 yards?
Yes the FCP/FCP-K/FCP-SR will get you to 1000 yards and I believe has a 1:10 twist for the heavier (read longer) bullets.

But if you're thinking about reloading, I would skip .308 (not that I dislike it, I love my .308 and reload for it). I would go for more ballistically efficient cartridges like in the 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm family. Of course many of those will cut into your barrel life which might be a downside if you plan to do a bucket load of practice being a new discipline for you, but something like a 260 rem would be a good middle ground IMO.

Randall,

Official NRA target shooting has mid range at 600 yards and long range is 800, 900 and 1000 yards. That's the definition I use so I conform to national shooting organization terminology.
Randall said intermediate is 600, and long range is over that. So I believe you're both saying the same thing.

The standard 20" SPS is a 1-12" twist, which means you cant take advantage of heavier bullets that are better for long range (800-1000yards).

The AAC-SD is a 20" but 1-10" twist, a better option.

18" at 1k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15qj032UJ1I)

Yes, you lose out on some velocity when you go to a shorter barrel, which makes longer shots more difficult. But a shorter barrel is more rigid, which yields an accuracy improvement.

So should you shoot an 18" barrel at 1k yards? Probably not, it isn't that efficient in the application. But you can. It is a balancing act. A 26" barrel is not needed to shoot 1k yards. 20-24" is what I see as popular, but the popularity depends on the application. Fclass guys shoot like 30" barrels because they dont have to move their rifles. Tactical guys shoot shorter because they want the maneuverability and weight loss.

308 can take you to 1k yards, but that is near its upper limit. If you are focused on shooting that far, why not a Savage LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor or 260 Remington? The 6.5 has good factory ammo if you dont reload, although it is expensive(ish). The gun itself can be had for around $930, and it comes with a decent stock (unlike the Remington SPS which needs to be replaced immediately).

Personally I would just get the Remington 700 AAC-SD in .308. But if you are dead set on 1k yards, and are able to shoot it regularly, why not get something that better fits the role?

Absolutely agree with all this.

ar15barrels
08-12-2013, 5:50 PM
1 moa at 1000 yards?! or is that a dream

it can be a dream and a goal.
It is attainable through experience.
Buying higher performance equipment will not really help you significantly towards that goal until you are consistently shooting sub-1moa at 600yds.

ar15barrels
08-12-2013, 5:53 PM
Official NRA target shooting has mid range at 600 yards and long range is 800, 900 and 1000 yards. That's the definition I use so I conform to national shooting organization terminology.

Where do you put the 601yd to 799 targets that are not part of organized competitions?
Do you lump them into mid or intermediate range, or push them out to longrange?

russ69
08-12-2013, 6:55 PM
Where do you put the 601yd to 799 targets that are not part of organized competitions?
Do you lump them into mid or intermediate range, or push them out to longrange?

Geeze Randall, They don't let us shoot at any other ranges. We are target shooters for crying out loud, we only shoot at known distances on known targets. Hell I probably couldn't even find my shots on a 700 yard target. I'd put on a 800 yard dope and shoot myself in the foot, or my sight would lock up from non-use! Darn you tactical guys!

Pthfndr
08-12-2013, 7:12 PM
This is just a misunderstanding of what MOA is. MOA is minute of angle and does not change it's value based on distance. What this means is that 1 MOA at 50 yard and 1000 yard is the same thing.

1 MOA at 1000 yard means a 10 inch group at 1000 yard.

I think you guys meant 1 inch group at 1000 yard, which in approximately 0.1 MOA.

Did you really just say that Randall doesn't understand what MOA is?

Really? You did quote him.

FWIW, being able to shoot 1 moa or better at 600 yards is infinitely easier than doing it at 1000 yards. Unless one is shooting in a vacuum tube.

ar15barrels
08-12-2013, 7:16 PM
Geeze Randall, They don't let us shoot at any other ranges. We are target shooters for crying out loud, we only shoot at known distances on known targets. Hell I probably couldn't even find my shots on a 700 yard target. I'd put on a 800 yard dope and shoot myself in the foot, or my sight would lock up from non-use! Darn you tactical guys!

Your 700yd dope is about 3/8 of the way to your 800yd dope from your 600yd dope.

I was not giving you crap.
I was honestly asking.
Should we classify 200-600yds as midrange amd them everything past 600 defaults to longrange, as I do?
Or do we take midrange out to 799 and them magically start longrange at 800?

There has to be a dividing line somewhere...

milotrain
08-12-2013, 7:18 PM
1MOA at 100 yards is about hard holding
1MOA at 1000 yards is about proper chicken bone technique, I'm still struggling at 600 yards.

Thorax
08-12-2013, 7:19 PM
308 is an absolute minimum round to get out to 1k consistently.
It'll do it, but only just.

Get a 300 mag or something even better designed for the range.
Heck, a 30-06 has 200-300 fps on a 308 with the same bullets. A 300 mag has 200 more fps with the same bullets.

The faster the bullet leaves the barrel, the farther is stays supersonic all the way to the target.
It's when it drops to subsonic is when the bullet de-stabilizes.

ar15barrels
08-12-2013, 7:21 PM
This is just a misunderstanding of what MOA is. MOA is minute of angle and does not change it's value based on distance. What this means is that 1 MOA at 50 yard and 1000 yard is the same thing.

1 MOA at 1000 yard means a 10 inch group at 1000 yard.

I think you guys meant 1 inch group at 1000 yard, which in approximately 0.1 MOA.

I am very aware of what 1 moa is at various distances.
While you are correct that the angular measurement is the same regardless of distance, putting bullets into nice little groups has a greater skill requirement as distance increases.
A shooter who can shoot 1/2 moa at 100yds will have a very hard time shooting 1 moa groups at 600yds and 2moa groups at 1000yds.
Being skilled enough to shoot 1moa groups at 100yds does NOT mean you are skilled enough to shoot 1moa groups at 1000yds...

milotrain
08-12-2013, 7:23 PM
Your 700yd dope is about 3/8 of the way to your 800yd dope from your 600yd dope.

I was not giving you crap.
I was honestly asking.
Should we classify 200-600yds as midrange amd them everything past 600 defaults to longrange, as I do?
Or do we take midrange out to 799 and them magically start longrange at 800?

There has to be a dividing line somewhere...

I've always assumed that:
short range was 0-300yards
midrange was 301-600yards
long range was 601-1000+yards

I figure that the NRA want's to work you at the maximum of a class, not the minimum. Therefore while short range is as short as 25yards we only care at the top of the spectrum 200 and 300. And therefore 300 should be the end of that classification. Similarly while 301 may be considered midrange we only care at 400, 500, and 600. Thus 600 is the end of the classification. Likewise 800, 900, 1000.

One of the good things about tactical and unknown distance competition is that these dead spots are covered, and that makes it a harder competition and better for making you well rounded.

CobraRed
08-12-2013, 7:35 PM
aal780555,

1 moa at 1000 yards is 10.47" and each click on a 1/4-moa scope would be 2.6175"

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-12-2013, 7:41 PM
any good or great 30-06 rifles? is the Garand or 1903 good for long distance? or the M1A/M14?

CobraRed
08-12-2013, 7:47 PM
is the Garand or 1903 good for long distance? or the M1A/M14?

Will the bullet travel far? Yes
Will you hit 1moa? Im not going to embellish and just say no.

You need a precision system (i.e. rifle + scope + shooter) - while M1A's and Garands have a huge well deserved following and bringing them up may start some **** storm

the answer is no.

The 30-06 cartridge is fine IMO, slightly faster than .308 but now you're shooting a long action bolt. Much better long action cartridges out there than 30-06 (imo again).

russ69
08-12-2013, 8:25 PM
I was not giving you crap.
I was honestly asking.
Should we classify 200-600yds as midrange amd them everything past 600 defaults to longrange, as I do?
Or do we take midrange out to 799 and them magically start longrange at 800?
There has to be a dividing line somewhere...

I don't know, honestly. I think it's hard to quantify and it depends on the shooting discipline. I tend to be digital and the NRA big bore rule book says 600 is mid-range and 800, 900, and 1000 are long range. It's all in the context you are comfortable with. When somebody says long range to me it means the next target set past 600 yards, which is 800 yards in NRA long range shooting.
For the purposes of this forum, maybe we should assume guys are shooting 1/9 twist AR-15 carbines with 55 grain surplus ammo and anything over 300 yards is long range? The targets I see on a normal Sunday afternoon at the range kinda makes me think a lot of guys haven't got 100 yard shooting figured out yet. Anyway, maybe we should quantify what we mean, when we say long range.

Ahhnother8
08-12-2013, 9:06 PM
308 is an absolute minimum round to get out to 1k consistently.
It'll do it, but only just.

Jeez, I hope not!! There will be hundreds of us in Raton, New Mexico next week shooting .308's at 1,000 yards. Many will score better than those shooting hot-rod calibers. ;)

CobraRed
08-12-2013, 9:16 PM
Jeez, I hope not!! There will be hundreds of us in Raton, New Mexico next week shooting .308's at 1,000 yards. Many will score better than those shooting hot-rod calibers. ;)

Great drivers win in slower cars all the time, doesn't make a slower car better suited for the job.

That said I heart my .308

omnitravis
08-12-2013, 9:23 PM
Honestly, 1000 yards is hard for me to imagine. The range I frequent only goes out to 400, I believe(Laguna Seca, someone please correct me, I know I am wrong).

That is some impressive shooting, I would have to use a scope, and then probably still miss.

CobraRed
08-12-2013, 9:44 PM
Honestly, 1000 yards is hard for me to imagine. The range I frequent only goes out to 400, I believe(Laguna Seca, someone please correct me, I know I am wrong).

That is some impressive shooting, I would have to use a scope, and then probably still miss.

It's far. When I was setting up this stand it took a bit on the phone to even get the person at our vantage to find me much less the stand, much less the target - which is easyish to find with a scope in the morning when the sun is lateral to it and much harder later when it's not illuminated. Then you get two different cross winds from the two canyons you're shooting through. Nothing like shooting at the 550y mark from that same vantage.

http://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17740/177408753fc48eb9a9a0972e7d9561afee83ff7b.jpg

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-12-2013, 10:07 PM
damn where is that at?! Cobra Red

John Walker
08-12-2013, 10:20 PM
Honestly, 1000 yards is hard for me to imagine. The range I frequent only goes out to 400, I believe(Laguna Seca, someone please correct me, I know I am wrong).

That is some impressive shooting, I would have to use a scope, and then probably still miss.

It might take a little more than just a scope. I suggest a good Precision Long Range Rifle Instructor and some self study. I just completed a one on one course a little over a week ago at Wes Thompsons Piru Gun Range. On day one, using a M700 with a 20" barrel, I was able to hit targets all the way out to 960 yards in up to a 15 mph wind. On day two all the way out to 1000 yards in less than 4 mph breeze.

My instructor taught me how to use ballistic data combined with atmospheric data to dial in my scope in order to hit these targets. He slao taught a lot more. I doubt that I could have done this without this education even if my equipment was bad ***.

The equipment I used was:

M700 SPS-AAC 20"
Karsten cheek piece
Weaver 20 MOA base
Badger scope rings
Leupold 4.5X14X50
Harris bipod
Shooting mat
Kestral NV 4500
iPad with iBallistic software
Black Hills 168gr match ammo (day one)
Pri PArtizan 168gr match ammo (day two)
Awesome Instructor w/Spotting Scope from TASC

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-12-2013, 10:56 PM
It might take a little more than just a scope. I suggest a good Precision Long Range Rifle Instructor and some self study. I just completed a one on one course a little over a week ago at Wes Thompsons Piru Gun Range. On day one, using a M700 with a 20" barrel, I was able to hit targets all the way out to 960 yards in up to a 15 mph wind. On day two all the way out to 1000 yards in less than 4 mph breeze.

My instructor taught me how to use ballistic data combined with atmospheric data to dial in my scope in order to hit these targets. He slao taught a lot more. I doubt that I could have done this without this education even if my equipment was bad ***.

The equipment I used was:

M700 SPS-AAC 20"
Karsten cheek piece
Weaver 20 MOA base
Badger scope rings
Leupold 4.5X14X50
Harris bipod
Shooting mat
Kestral NV 4500
iPad with iBallistic software
Black Hills 168gr match ammo (day one)
Pri PArtizan 168gr match ammo (day two)
Awesome Instructor w/Spotting Scope from TASC

where was the class?

ar15barrels
08-13-2013, 12:20 AM
IAnyway, maybe we should quantify what we mean, when we say long range.

I always make a point to quantify short range, intermediate range and long range by saying that short rsnge is 200yds and closer, intermediate range is beyond 200yds all the way to 600yds and then long range is beyond 600yds.

ar15barrels
08-13-2013, 12:25 AM
where was the class?

It said right in his post that it was at Piru...

mattt
08-13-2013, 12:44 AM
I am with Ahhnother 8 . My savage 308 works better for me then my f/open rifles in competitions. Some indians need a better arrow some dont:rolleyes:

John Walker
08-13-2013, 6:26 AM
Yes, the class was at Piru. My instructor was Scott Olson with the Academy of Saint Crispian. Each day we would quantify each line from 100 yards on out. And then work our way from 1000 back to 100. On day one, I was shooting a 1.0+ moa at 100 yards. On day two I was able to get in under a .5 moa. Remediation surely helped but Scott assistance in technique was the true deciding factor. Fun stuff.

high_revs
08-13-2013, 7:40 AM
Honestly, 1000 yards is hard for me to imagine. The range I frequent only goes out to 400, I believe(Laguna Seca, someone please correct me, I know I am wrong).

That is some impressive shooting, I would have to use a scope, and then probably still miss.

It's far. When I was setting up this stand it took a bit on the phone to even get the person at our vantage to find me much less the stand, much less the target - which is easyish to find with a scope in the morning when the sun is lateral to it and much harder later when it's not illuminated. Then you get two different cross winds from the two canyons you're shooting through. Nothing like shooting at the 550y mark from that same vantage.

http://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17740/177408753fc48eb9a9a0972e7d9561afee83ff7b.jpg

here's another view of 1k (i believe) @ sac valley from the clinic held this past May. provided by another member who took some pics that day.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/goldenset/oll/608100-13_zps2f4563be.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/goldenset/media/oll/608100-13_zps2f4563be.jpg.html)

milotrain
08-13-2013, 9:58 AM
any good or great 30-06 rifles? is the Garand or 1903 good for long distance? or the M1A/M14?

I'm building a long range .30-06 as we speak. German Salazar shoots a .30-06 in a pile of 1000yard prone competitions and does very well (good driver, maybe slow car). He even did a comparison across many matches of shooting the .30-06, .308 and 6XC. (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html) and found that all three were nearly identical in score across many matches.

The 30-06 cartridge is fine IMO, slightly faster than .308 but now you're shooting a long action bolt. Much better long action cartridges out there than 30-06 (imo again).


The .30-06 is faster than the .308 no opinion about it, it's just case capacity. Give a .30-06 a 28" barrel so that it can burn all that powder and you can run a nice heavy bullet like the Berger 190VLD at around 2800fps. Typically you see the .308 running 175gr bullets at around 2700fps. That's a significant advantage. Additionally the .30-06 has one of the lowest kicks of the long action cartridges and is easily the cheapest to load for. It also is barrel life friendly.

Ahhnother8
08-13-2013, 10:13 AM
Give a .30-06 a 28" barrel so that it can burn all that powder and you can run a nice heavy bullet like the Berger 190VLD at around 2800fps. Typically you see the .308 running 175gr bullets at around 2700fps.

Just an FYI. In my .308, I shoot a "mild" load of a 185 Berger at 2800 fps, which is extremely accurate. I tested up over 2850 fps without signs of pressure. It seems that 2900 fps will be easily attainable.

milotrain
08-13-2013, 11:09 AM
That's impressive. 28" barrel? What powder if I may ask?

ar15barrels
08-13-2013, 11:10 AM
Just an FYI. In my .308, I shoot a "mild" load of a 185 Berger at 2800 fps, which is extremely accurate. I tested up over 2850 fps without signs of pressure. It seems that 2900 fps will be easily attainable.

Those 20" barrels you run just keep getting faster and faster...

CobraRed
08-13-2013, 11:16 AM
I'm building a long range .30-06 as we speak. German Salazar shoots a .30-06 in a pile of 1000yard prone competitions and does very well (good driver, maybe slow car). He even did a comparison across many matches of shooting the .30-06, .308 and 6XC. (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html) and found that all three were nearly identical in score across many matches.



The .30-06 is faster than the .308 no opinion about it, it's just case capacity. Give a .30-06 a 28" barrel so that it can burn all that powder and you can run a nice heavy bullet like the Berger 190VLD at around 2800fps. Typically you see the .308 running 175gr bullets at around 2700fps. That's a significant advantage. Additionally the .30-06 has one of the lowest kicks of the long action cartridges and is easily the cheapest to load for. It also is barrel life friendly.
The comma used in my quote denotes that it's my opinion that the cartridge is fine, not that it's my opinion that it's faster.

As far as lowest kicks, my 700 in 6.5x55 kicks less than my 308 (which weighs more) all while sending .61+ G1 ballstic .31+G7 ballistic bullets over 2900 fps. And I wouldn't even call my cartridge the best LA example of this, just personal experience.

LynnJr
08-13-2013, 11:18 AM
The 308 cartridge is mainly used at 1000 yards when the rules require one to use it.It is a good 600 yard cartridge but is marginal at 1000 with the availability of the more modern cartridges.

There are guys who shoot it at 1000 in one discipline who know it well and those are the guys you will generally see using it in the other disciplines for the most part.

When you use a short barrel and lose even more velocity you are tolerance stacking the odds against you rather than in your favor.

A6BR shooting a 107 Sierra Matchking at 2950 fps has the same ballistics as a 300 Win Mag shooting a 190 Sierra Matchking at 2950 fps except for energy.The 6BR is inherently more accurate has less recoil longer barrel life is easier to load for and cheaper to shoot in the long run.

Could the poster who talked about gyroscopic stability tell me what barrel length has to do with gyroscopic stability?

milotrain
08-13-2013, 11:31 AM
Layne's talking about having a barrel long enough to stabilize the bullet I believe. 6BR is great, no doubt about it. But salazar's data would suggest that the 6XC (A very similar cartridge) is not better by that much at 1000 yards. At top level competition 1.6% is huge, but that percentage is way overshadowed by skill until you start playing with the highmasters.

It's like cycling. I can save 100grams by spending a pile of money and it will make the bike lighter, but that is only really worth it if I've already lost all the weight around my a55 that's unnecessary.

milotrain
08-13-2013, 11:33 AM
Those 20" barrels you run just keep getting faster and faster...

How the hell is anyone getting a 185 berger to 2800fps out of 20?

CobraRed
08-13-2013, 11:44 AM
How the hell is anyone getting a 185 berger to 2800fps out of 20?

By packing the receiver with dangerous amounts of powder, and not the fun white kind.

Also, would you take those cycling parts that are uber light and high tech if they were the same price as everything else that's not or less so? Because unless were talking about factory ammo from Walmart (if we are, then why) when I was building my last rifle barrels of all the cartridges were mentioning cost the same, and realoading 30 cal and under is similar in price anyways.

milotrain
08-13-2013, 12:09 PM
Well I find that bulk 30 cal bullets are the cheapest things I can find next to .223 caliber bulk, due to the highpower, Palma and CMP competitions. Also while 6BR Lapua brass is the best available it is around .85c a case, while Winchester is the best .30-06 brass available and is around .50c a case if you can't find it once fired. The range of powders available for the .30-06 is also larger.

Granted most of what I just said applies equally well to the .308, and I'll admit that when you are loading match ammo the numbers draw closer because you start using premium everything.

One major reason for me to be building a .30-06 long range gun is that I have and shoot an M1 and 1903A3 so my reloading process, setup, tooling and supplies don't really change. The added expense to my loading is simply setting aside the good brass and buying heavy match bullets. I realize that that is completely a factor of my process and not applicable to others.

The interesting thing to me was not that the .30-06 was the perfect long range cartridge, but that it was viable, and due to my circumstances quite cheap to shoot in comparison to tooling up to shoot 6BR.

ar15barrels
08-13-2013, 12:26 PM
Could the poster who talked about gyroscopic stability tell me what barrel length has to do with gyroscopic stability?

Gyroscopic stability is also critical.

You probably don't realize that poster won the 2010 F t/r national championship by putting a borrowed f class bipod and scope on his palma gun...
I'm sure he could explain how barrel length effects gyroscopic stability.

In his absence, I'll throw my explanation out instead:
Velocity is a factor in gyroscopic stability.
Barrel length is a factor in velocity.
By indirect association, barrel length becomes a factor in gyroscopic stability.

As an example; take a 26" long 1:12 twist 308 barrel shooting 185gr bullets.
Cut that same barrel down to 22" and you will lose so much velocity that the bullets will no longer stabilize.
The twist rate has stayed the same.
The load has stayed the same.
Therefore, the barrels length change has effected the bullets gyroscopic stability.

However, barrel length is not a direct factor in gyroscopic stability IF you change the twist rate while comparing barrels.
However, to change the twist rate, you would have to change the barrel.
Then, you are no longer comparing a specific barrel.
You might as well have changed the gun or the bullet or the velocity as well...

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-13-2013, 2:39 PM
You probably don't realize that poster won the 2010 F t/r national championship by putting a borrowed f class bipod and scope on his palma gun...
I'm sure he could explain how barrel length effects gyroscopic stability.

In his absence, I'll throw my explanation out instead:
Velocity is a factor in gyroscopic stability.
Barrel length is a factor in velocity.
By indirect association, barrel length becomes a factor in gyroscopic stability.

As an example; take a 26" long 1:12 twist 308 barrel shooting 185gr bullets.
Cut that same barrel down to 22" and you will lose so much velocity that the bullets will no longer stabilize.
The twist rate has stayed the same.
The load has stayed the same.
Therefore, the barrels length change has effected the bullets gyroscopic stability.

However, barrel length is not a direct factor in gyroscopic stability IF you change the twist rate while comparing barrels.
However, to change the twist rate, you would have to change the barrel.
Then, you are no longer comparing a specific barrel.
You might as well have changed the gun or the bullet or the velocity as well...

that makes sense to a newbie like me. does the 700 AAC 20" have a faster twist rate? is that rifle a better option?

milotrain
08-13-2013, 3:08 PM
The AAC has a 1:10 twist which is awful fast. It's sort of a standard twist rate for the 30 cal but that's based off the fact that the Garand and 1903 were 1:10. The real question to ask yourself is what bullet do you want to shoot? Running a 185 in the .308 is a specialized application, I doubt you have a reason for a 700AAC and the need for a 185gr 30 cal bullet.

The AAC is pretty much designed for Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr and 175gr ammo. Stick with that or load something similar.

John Walker
08-13-2013, 4:16 PM
I believe you want your rifling to give two complete rotations before the bullet exits the barrel. In a 20" barrel 1 rev ea 10" gives two rotation. In a 24" barrel 1:12 would give two complete rotation. This is optimal from what I was taught.

SkyStorm82
08-13-2013, 4:22 PM
It might take a little more than just a scope. I suggest a good Precision Long Range Rifle Instructor and some self study. I just completed a one on one course a little over a week ago at Wes Thompsons Piru Gun Range. On day one, using a M700 with a 20" barrel, I was able to hit targets all the way out to 960 yards in up to a 15 mph wind. On day two all the way out to 1000 yards in less than 4 mph breeze.

My instructor taught me how to use ballistic data combined with atmospheric data to dial in my scope in order to hit these targets. He slao taught a lot more. I doubt that I could have done this without this education even if my equipment was bad ***.

The equipment I used was:

M700 SPS-AAC 20"
Karsten cheek piece
Weaver 20 MOA base
Badger scope rings
Leupold 4.5X14X50
Harris bipod
Shooting mat
Kestral NV 4500
iPad with iBallistic software
Black Hills 168gr match ammo (day one)
Pri PArtizan 168gr match ammo (day two)
Awesome Instructor w/Spotting Scope from TASC

How much did that class cost you?

russ69
08-13-2013, 4:33 PM
I believe you want your rifling to give two complete rotations before the bullet exits the barrel. In a 20" barrel 1 rev ea 10" gives two rotation. In a 24" barrel 1:12 would give two complete rotation. This is optimal from what I was taught.

Never heard that one before. The bullet doesn't skid on the rifling so the only important thing is the twist rate.

LynnJr
08-13-2013, 4:40 PM
You probably don't realize that poster won the 2010 F t/r national championship by putting a borrowed f class bipod and scope on his palma gun...
I'm sure he could explain how barrel length effects gyroscopic stability.

In his absence, I'll throw my explanation out instead:
Velocity is a factor in gyroscopic stability.
Barrel length is a factor in velocity.
By indirect association, barrel length becomes a factor in gyroscopic stability.

As an example; take a 26" long 1:12 twist 308 barrel shooting 185gr bullets.
Cut that same barrel down to 22" and you will lose so much velocity that the bullets will no longer stabilize.
The twist rate has stayed the same.
The load has stayed the same.
Therefore, the barrels length change has effected the bullets gyroscopic stability.

However, barrel length is not a direct factor in gyroscopic stability IF you change the twist rate while comparing barrels.
However, to change the twist rate, you would have to change the barrel.
Then, you are no longer comparing a specific barrel.
You might as well have changed the gun or the bullet or the velocity as well...

Actually I do know the shooter.
A 500 fps drop in velocity would equate to a change of 0.08 in Sg and would be considered inconsequential in a properly stabilized bullet above Sg 1.4.
I am guessing the stability in the 26 inch example is Sg 1.3 depending on which 185 bullet is used and that is already marginal.

CobraRed
08-13-2013, 4:45 PM
that makes sense to a newbie like me. does the 700 AAC 20" have a faster twist rate? is that rifle a better option?
Figure out what speed you're going to be shooting a certain weight of bullet by doing your handloading math estimate or looking up the factory stated fps for that factory ammo then multiply it by 94-94.6% (most factory ammo is chrono'd with a 26" from manufacturer, last white paper test I read in 30 cal saw 5.4-6% loss from 26-20").

Plug that FPS in here:
http://www.mcgowenoutlet.com/twistcalculator.html

Pick out your bullet, then plug the BULLET'S length in that calculator as well.
Look up bullet lengths here:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/lengths/lengths.shtml

Now you can figure it out for yourself, choose a heavy/long high ballistic coefficient bullet for long range capability, choose the barrel length you're looking at then plug in the estimated fps - it will tell you what twist you need to stabilize it.


The AAC has a 1:10 twist which is awful fast. It's sort of a standard twist rate for the 30 cal but that's based off the fact that the Garand and 1903 were 1:10. The real question to ask yourself is what bullet do you want to shoot? Running a 185 in the .308 is a specialized application, I doubt you have a reason for a 700AAC and the need for a 185gr 30 cal bullet.

The AAC is pretty much designed for Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr and 175gr ammo. Stick with that or load something similar.
I went with 1:11 twist on my 26" barrel order (went from 20"), also sharing your views about 1:10 being awfully fast.

milotrain
08-13-2013, 5:04 PM
I went with 1:11 twist on my 26" barrel order (went from 20"), also sharing your views about 1:10 being awfully fast.

Barrel maker?

CobraRed
08-13-2013, 5:35 PM
Barrel maker?

McGowen - my new 6.5 28" 1:8.5 barrel from them makes 3 from them now. One each on a
Win M70
Savage 10
Rem 700

the full gamut now. They're accurate, that's why I keep going back.

http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16803/16803550c521ffd4bf22acb4a3e4bea1f5932158.jpg

http://img3.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16803/16803549ffea5a9578ca906cd0aafa8741fda123.jpg

http://img2.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17444/174449328b85d86f994fdd3c1c3050e5f0b78e99.jpg

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-13-2013, 6:02 PM
nice

John Walker
08-13-2013, 6:08 PM
How much did that class cost you?

$250.00/2 days of training

ar15barrels
08-13-2013, 6:13 PM
I believe you want your rifling to give two complete rotations before the bullet exits the barrel. In a 20" barrel 1 rev ea 10" gives two rotation. In a 24" barrel 1:12 would give two complete rotation. This is optimal from what I was taught.

That has nothing to do with anything.
7.5" long barrels stabilize 0.224" diameter bullets just fine with less than 1 complete twist in the bore.

John Walker
08-13-2013, 6:33 PM
That has nothing to do with anything.
7.5" long barrels stabilize 0.224" diameter bullets just fine with less than 1 complete twist in the bore.

Like I said, that was what I was taught. I did forget to add that this is for .308 cal.

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-13-2013, 6:53 PM
since I'm new... would you guys recommend the Mossberg MVP 24" 1/9 twist? I think it can be had for less then $600.00 takes AR mags. good started rifle?

wt4
08-13-2013, 7:40 PM
I've read a couple of comments on here that say that thee Remington 700 sps tactical isn't a good option for long distance shooting.

However at my local range I've seen people hit steel at 600 yards with an 16" AR-15. ?!
yet a 20" bull barrel .308 is only good for 300 yards?!

can someone please explain? im really interested in the Ruger scout SS because it's an 18" barrel. or even the Remington 700 SPS tac. (more of an affordable option)

I didn't ask to start fights so please be civil. thanks.


You are fine with the SPS tac out to about 800 yards or so.........just switch out the stock with say, a B&C M40, study the ballistics, mount a good optic, get a bipod, get some match grade ammo like FGMM, and go for it!

Some people here just like to complicate matters.

MakeYaBootyBurn
08-13-2013, 8:50 PM
http://youtu.be/55IFc5OSG6c

I can haz?

CobraRed
08-13-2013, 9:09 PM
http://youtu.be/55IFc5OSG6c

I can haz?

You go to the shooting lanes you'll see all kinds of rigs just like that.

Stan08
08-28-2013, 10:23 PM
Yes, the class was at Piru. My instructor was Scott Olson with the Academy of Saint Crispian. Each day we would quantify each line from 100 yards on out. And then work our way from 1000 back to 100. On day one, I was shooting a 1.0+ moa at 100 yards. On day two I was able to get in under a .5 moa. Remediation surely helped but Scott assistance in technique was the true deciding factor. Fun stuff.


http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/Lance1775/CopyofScott002_zps490c9685.jpg (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/Lance1775/media/CopyofScott002_zps490c9685.jpg.html)

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/Lance1775/P2260073-Copy.jpg (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/Lance1775/media/P2260073-Copy.jpg.html)

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/Lance1775/P2250034-Copy.jpg (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/Lance1775/media/P2250034-Copy.jpg.html)

Lucky Scott
08-29-2013, 4:53 PM
Not to derail this thread, but I just got a Remington 700 in 7mm Rem Mag out of jail and look forward to trying some 200 to 600 yard shooting. Not going to go crazy with the 1000 yard stuff, (just cant afford it) but would like to shoot a little farther than I have been shooting.
I have heard the 7mm Rem Mag is a nice flat shooting round.
Any opinions on this round?

I would like to maybe replace the factory wood stock with a nice Bell & Carlson stock and maybe upgrade the trigger. But first, I need to shoot it and see how it does the way it is.

CobraRed
08-29-2013, 5:40 PM
the 7mmRemMag will shoot effectively to 1500-1700 yards, usually when hand loaded and with great bullets.

covingtonhouse
08-30-2013, 2:52 PM
Honestly, 1000 yards is hard for me to imagine. The range I frequent only goes out to 400, I believe(Laguna Seca, someone please correct me, I know I am wrong).

That is some impressive shooting, I would have to use a scope, and then probably still miss.

Laguna's longest shot is 500 yards to the top gong. 13.25 moa come up for my rifle.