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Matt C
12-31-2007, 11:13 AM
It seems there has been another very avoidable arrest related to the OLL issue. While we know our firearms are legal, local police may not. So here are BWO's rules on how not to get arrested when traveling with an OLR or any firearm.

1. Don't break traffic laws while traveling with OLLs.

2.Do not have firearms or obvious firearm cases in plain sight. Do not have other items/stickers/clothing on your person or vehicle that would indicate firearm possession. This is a good idea in any case, you don't want to advertise to criminals either.

3. If stopped, signal and pull over promptly to a safe spot. Remain seated with your hands on the wheel. If it is night/dark, turn on your interior light and do not reach for anything (including wallet or registration/insurance papers) intill instructed to do so by the peace officer. When he/she asks, inform him/her that you will be getting them out of x area and ask if it's ok. Be VERY polite and sincere. Do not make excuses for whatever violation you are accused of, nor should you admit to any violation. Simply remain silent, or state something like "I understand officer/deputy/patrolman."

3.This is MOST FREAKING IMPORTANT! If asked any questions about the contents of your vehicle, or if you will permit a search, the ONLY answer is NO. You will not tell him what's in there as it is your private stuff, and you will not let him search for the same reasons. Say so respectfully not arrogantly. You never know what is really in your car unless you watch it 24/7 and no one is in it but you. Why invite trouble? Of course if you are carrying OLLs, than you already know there could be trouble.

While some OLL arrests were due mainly to unusual circumstances many others came from simple traffic stops and probably could have been avoided. Also, following the above is likely as anything to get you out of a ticket for whatever you were stopped for, since you will probably be the most pleasant traffic stop that cop has had all day.

ETA:

One other thing to watch out for would be if an LEO were to ask "do you mind if I search you vehicle?" Your first instinct would be to respond with a big fat "no" but now you have just told the LEO that you do not mind if they search your vehicle. Some people are naturally nervous or uneasy when confronted by law enforcement and can very easily make a mistake when responding to their questions.

An attorney once told me the best response to give a LEO when confronted with any kind of question asking for consent to search a vehicle would be "You may not search my vehicle." Simple, to the point, and very little chance to be misconstrued.

Soldier415
12-31-2007, 11:37 AM
The above is excellent information.

TonyNorCal
12-31-2007, 12:40 PM
This is an excellent post. Great advice.

I agree that living in California one should think through how they'd handle a traffic stop while transporting firearms. It's sad that such is the case, but that's reality.

This doesn't mean you should get paranoid or obsess, but having thought over what you'd say (or not say) and how you'd act is good idea.

I just know from past traffic stops (no firearms on board) that treating an officer with respect and remaining calm is the best way to go.

M. Sage
12-31-2007, 12:40 PM
Stuck the thread for you.

Know your rights, and know your answers ahead of time. Role-play it out with someone if you have to.

Where is that ACLU video when you need it?

Ironchef
12-31-2007, 12:42 PM
I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

mecam
12-31-2007, 12:59 PM
They need PC to search without permission.

I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

M. Sage
12-31-2007, 1:19 PM
Yes, they need PC, a warrant, or permission to search your car. They'll tell you otherwise trying to get permission, though.

bwiese
12-31-2007, 1:40 PM
Good points all, by someone who's BTDT.

There's no need to push things just to brazenly assert RKBA. Discretion is sensibility.

I will quote (approximately) 'AR15fan' (a SoCal cop on AR15.COM): "It's legal to drive with a dead hooker in your trunk if your taillights and turn signals work OK."

Ford8N
12-31-2007, 3:37 PM
A sad commentary about this state when we are scared of the police when we have done nothing illegal.:(

N6ATF
12-31-2007, 4:14 PM
I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

They can SAY they can do anything... doesn't mean they actually CAN do anything.

Matt C
12-31-2007, 4:21 PM
A sad commentary about this state when we are scared of the police when we have done nothing illegal.:(

Who is scared? This is about being prudent.

metalhead357
12-31-2007, 4:37 PM
Good advice to a point.....

If the officer asks though if you have weapons in the car? The Penal Code already GIVES the officer the authority to perform a *safety check* and does not need your OK......

So lying to the cop aint an option...if he smells it out and does the search you're screwed; So what's the best way to handle THAT specific scenario?

Matt C
12-31-2007, 4:39 PM
Good advice to a point.....

If the officer asks though if you have weapons in the car? The Penal Code already GIVES the officer the authority to perform a *safety check* and does not need your OK......

So lying to the cop aint an option...if he smells it out and does the search you're screwed; So what's the best way to handle THAT specific scenario?

What PC?

And I never said lie to the cops...

M. Sage
12-31-2007, 4:51 PM
It's in 12031, IIRC. It's a total BS law that violates 4th Amendment.

Found it: 12031(e). Only applies if they have reasonable cause to believe that you have a firearm. Basically, they have to see a gun, or a case that obviously contains one.

In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in
a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this
section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this
section.

Matt C
12-31-2007, 5:36 PM
It's in 12031, IIRC. It's a total BS law that violates 4th Amendment.

Found it: 12031(e). Only applies if they have reasonable cause to believe that you have a firearm. Basically, they have to see a gun, or a case that obviously contains one.

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

That's not even exactly allowing a search in itself. But in any case, this does not allow search without PC.

M. Sage
12-31-2007, 5:44 PM
You're right, it doesn't allow a search, it allows an inspection. However, expect the inspection to turn into a search of your rifle: checking the serial, type and configuration. Case law has been posted that officers can check your gun out if they spot something that likely holds a firearm. Disobedience results in arrest on suspicion of unlawfully carrying a loaded firearm, at which point it will be searched.

I really hate this law, and don't plan on giving consent.

Possession of a gun case doesn't always equal possession of a gun. In any case, possession of a gun doesn't equal probability of a crime (on its own, anyway).

Matt C
12-31-2007, 5:59 PM
All of which leads you to Rule #2

You're right, it doesn't allow a search, it allows an inspection. However, expect the inspection to turn into a search of your rifle: checking the serial, type and configuration. Case law has been posted that officers can check your gun out if they spot something that likely holds a firearm. Disobedience results in arrest on suspicion of unlawfully carrying a loaded firearm, at which point it will be searched.

I really hate this law, and don't plan on giving consent.

Possession of a gun case doesn't always equal possession of a gun. In any case, possession of a gun doesn't equal probability of a crime (on its own, anyway).

metalhead357
12-31-2007, 6:21 PM
Thanks for the followup gents.

And sorry...NO, I was not trying to imply you said lie to the cops: Quite the contrary.... Lying is a sure fire way to make things worse.

I've just always wondered what the procedure was to avoid this....short of Bill's infamous statement about guns & gloveboxes:D

Matt C
12-31-2007, 6:36 PM
Thanks for the followup gents.

And sorry...NO, I was not trying to imply you said lie to the cops: Quite the contrary.... Lying is a sure fire way to make things worse.

I've just always wondered what the procedure was to avoid this....short of Bill's infamous statement about guns & gloveboxes:D

Cops don't ask everybody they stop about guns, don't give them a reason to ask. If they do ask, just look at them funny.

OutlawDon
12-31-2007, 6:44 PM
Cops don't ask everybody they stop about guns, don't give them a reason to ask.

Exactly. Unless you look like someone's that suspect, a cop is not going to ask if you have any firearms. Of course, if you are rolling in your beat up truck with gun related bumper stickers all over, wearing camo/tactical gear, and reeking of gunpowder, you've pinned yourself. But everyone rolls differently with their own style, so YMMV.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
12-31-2007, 6:52 PM
Very good post BWO, and welcome back.


3.This is MOST FREAKING IMPORTANT! If asked any questions about the contents of your vehicle, or if you will permit a search, the ONLY answer is NO. You will not tell him what's in there as it is your private stuff, and you will not let him search for the same reasons. Say so respectfully not arrogantly. You never know what is really in your car unless you watch it 24/7 and no one is in it but you. Why invite trouble? Of course if you are carrying OLLs, than you already know there could be trouble.


One other thing to watch out for would be if an LEO were to ask "do you mind if I search you vehicle?" Your first instinct would be to respond with a big fat "no" but now you have just told the LEO that you do not mind if they search your vehicle. Some people are naturally nervous or uneasy when confronted by law enforcement and can very easily make a mistake when responding to their questions.

An attorney once told me the best response to give a LEO when confronted with any kind of question asking for consent to search a vehicle would be "You may not search my vehicle." Simple, to the point, and very little chance to be misconstrued.

Matt C
12-31-2007, 7:52 PM
Good point, I will add it above.

Very good post BWO, and welcome back.

One other thing to watch out for would be if an LEO were to ask "do you mind if I search you vehicle?" Your first instinct would be to respond with a big fat "no" but now you have just told the LEO that you do not mind if they search your vehicle. Some people are naturally nervous or uneasy when confronted by law enforcement and can very easily make a mistake when responding to their questions.

An attorney once told me the best response to give a LEO when confronted with any kind of question asking for consent to search a vehicle would be "You may not search my vehicle." Simple, to the point, and very little chance to be misconstrued.

metalhead357
12-31-2007, 8:10 PM
Exactly. Unless you look like someone's that suspect, a cop is not going to ask if you have any firearms. Of course, if you are rolling in your beat up truck with gun related bumper stickers all over, wearing camo/tactical gear, and reeking of gunpowder, you've pinned yourself. But everyone rolls differently with their own style, so YMMV.

LOL! Maybe THAT'S why I ALWAYS get asked. I cant remember a time where I didn't get asked.....even when riding my motorcycle.

SteveH
12-31-2007, 9:08 PM
Add these.

1. Pay your vehicle registration. If your registration is expired over 6-months the police may tow the vehicle under CVC 22651(o)(1). It will be "inventoried" subsequent to towing and anything found during the inventory inspection is admissable in court.

2. Renew your drivers license on time. An expired drivers license is the same thing as an unlicensed driver CVC 12500(a). An unlicensed, or expired, drivers vehicle can be towed under CVC 22651(p) leading to an inventory inspection.

3. Pay your tickets. If you dont your drivers license may be suspended and your vehicle can be towed under CVC 22651(p) or impounded under CVC 14602.6(a). again leading to an inventory of the vehicle contents.

The best way to answer any request to search your vehicle is "I do not consent to a search of my vehicle." Said nice and clear so its captured on the officers tape recorder or patrol video system. simple yes or no answers may be misinterprited as explained earlier in this thread.

ldivinag
12-31-2007, 9:26 PM
so this is wrong?

cop: did you know why i stopped you?

me: people complained about the blood from the dead hooker in my truck, leaking out????

visualnewbie
12-31-2007, 11:56 PM
Exactly. Unless you look like someone's that suspect, a cop is not going to ask if you have any firearms. Of course, if you are rolling in your beat up truck with gun related bumper stickers all over, wearing camo/tactical gear, and reeking of gunpowder, you've pinned yourself. But everyone rolls differently with their own style, so YMMV.

Everytime I've been pulled over, they've asked if I have any "guns" to me. Funny thing is, I've never been asked for a search or been given a ticket from all those times I've been pulled over. I also don't drive a truck or have any stickers on my car. Maybe it's the way I look... :(

MudCamper
01-01-2008, 9:59 AM
Also very important is to know the laws, and carry documents to back that up:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=74449

The linked thread includes links to may good documents to carry with your rifles.

69Mach1
01-01-2008, 10:10 AM
One new thing to add starting this year gents. Don't use your cell while driving. Handsfree only.

FinweElensar
01-01-2008, 11:36 AM
One new thing to add starting this year gents. Don't use your cell while driving. Handsfree only.

Damn, I thought only minors were prohibited. [Mas Puto] I need a bluetooth headset [/Mas Puto]

toolman9000
01-01-2008, 11:44 AM
One new thing to add starting this year gents. Don't use your cell while driving. Handsfree only.

Not until July 1st, 2008... so we have seven months of driving with a cell phone left.


Transcript of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger Signing Legislation Requiring Drivers to Use Hands Free Devices

Time: 11:15 a.m.
Date: Friday, September 15, 2006
Event: Oakland Hilton, California Room, 1 Hegenberger Rd, Oakland, CA

GOVERNOR SCHWARZENEGGER:

Hello, everybody. It’s great to be here in Oakland. And first, before I talk about the bill signing, I just want to give you some good news, because I just heard this morning that California in August has created 37,000 new jobs. Now, just to show you how huge this is, and how fantastic this is, the rest of country, the whole United States, created 125,000 jobs. So we’re talking about California is creating almost 30 percent of all the jobs in the entire nation. So as you can see, the economy is back again, it’s booming. Our revenues every month are much greater than anticipated. So I’m very excited about that.

Now let’s get to the bill. Today we will be signing SB 1613. This is the hands-free cell phone bill that will save lives by making our roads safer. And I want to say thank you to Senator Simitian for his great, great work on this bill and for working with my office on this bill to perfect the bill. I want to thank him also for his great commitment to (IA) California, and to make our roads safe. He has been really extraordinary, to protect the people of California and I want to say thank you for that.

The simple fact is that it is really dangerous when you talk on your cell phone and drive at the same time. Hand-held cell phones are responsible for 1,000 accidents every month, and we have seen that there are very dangerous situations sometimes. We want to avoid that, and this is why we have here this bill. This bill doesn’t mean that you can’t talk on a cell phone; it just means that you should not hold a hand-held cell phone, you should use a headset or use a speaker system.

Also, there is an exception here that if you have to make an emergency call, then you can use the hand-held phone. And also, what is important is that this law will go into effect on July 1 of 2008. There will be a $20 fine if you’re caught the first time using a cell phone, and then $50 after that.

I think it is very important for people to know that even though the law begins in 2008, July of 2008, stop using your cell phones right now, because you’re putting people at risk. You just look away for a second, or for a split second, from what’s going on in front of you, and at that moment a child could be running out, and you could kill this child just because you were busy looking down and dialing on your cell phone. So pay attention to that, take this seriously. We want to really save lives here.

Thank you very much again, and.... blah blah blah

Diablo
01-01-2008, 11:46 AM
Excellent post!!

Scarecrow Repair
01-01-2008, 1:31 PM
Not until July 1st, 2008... so we have seven months of driving with a cell phone left.

Well, six ....

MedSpec65
01-01-2008, 2:27 PM
I always employ the procedures Blackwater Ops suggested when I get pulled over. The last two times I was pulled over I was let go with a warning. No stickers, cases or gun accessories are ever visible in my vehicle. The subject of guns has never even come up after many years of driving and scores of stops. I usually keep an unloaded pistol locked inside a pistol case in the back of my hatchback (covered), with loaded mags stashed around the driver's compartment (No, not the glovebox). Although it would take agonizing minutes to get access to personal protection, it's the price I have to pay for allowing my State to become politically dominated by morons.

PIRATE14
01-01-2008, 7:32 PM
so this is wrong?

cop: did you know why i stopped you?

me: people complained about the blood from the dead hooker in my truck, leaking out????

That reminds me of one of my famous lines in dealing with LE......one guy asked me if I had any weapons on me or in my car.....I balled my hands into fists and said besides these.....he laughed....still got a speeding ticket and was on my way.....;) Just finished up a huge training session in the desert.......:chris:

Be cool..........

robitrocks
01-01-2008, 8:52 PM
I can't belive no one's posted this yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Just remember, "If your woman is mad at you, leave her at home."

532Fastback
01-02-2008, 9:03 AM
This was in my newspaper yesterday. I wonder if this guys gun was CA legal or not. It says SUSPICION so obviously the police didn't know if it was or not, maybe.
• 4:46 p.m. - A caller reported hearing semi-automatic gunfire in the Greenhorn Creek area.

• 10:37 p.m. - Deputies stopped two vehicles and arrested a person on suspicion of having an assault weapon.

http://www.theunion.com/article/20080101/NEWS/842608779/-1/BLOTTER

Ironchef
01-02-2008, 1:46 PM
So wait a second...reading this thread brings up a question for me...

When I'm pulled over in my honda minivan, wife and kids inside, and upon handing my license and registration to the cop, and he quickly asks if i have any guns in the vehicle (and I do, legally stowed), how do I answer? Do I say "I don't want to answer that question" because he doesn't have PC to ask or pursue a search?

I know it's not something asked at a traffic stop, but if it is....what's safe protocol regardless of what firearm I'm carrying?

Charliegone
01-02-2008, 5:29 PM
I can't belive no one's posted this yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Just remember, "If your woman is mad at you, leave her at home."

"Get a white friend.." LOL:p

Matt C
01-02-2008, 6:59 PM
This was in my newspaper yesterday. I wonder if this guys gun was CA legal or not. It says SUSPICION so obviously the police didn't know if it was or not, maybe.
• 4:46 p.m. - A caller reported hearing semi-automatic gunfire in the Greenhorn Creek area.

• 10:37 p.m. - Deputies stopped two vehicles and arrested a person on suspicion of having an assault weapon.

http://www.theunion.com/article/20080101/NEWS/842608779/-1/BLOTTER

This is the incident that spurred this thread. The person knows to contact the Right People.

N6ATF
01-02-2008, 11:35 PM
This was in my newspaper yesterday. I wonder if this guys gun was CA legal or not. It says SUSPICION so obviously the police didn't know if it was or not, maybe.
• 4:46 p.m. - A caller reported hearing semi-automatic gunfire in the Greenhorn Creek area.

• 10:37 p.m. - Deputies stopped two vehicles and arrested a person on suspicion of having an assault weapon.

http://www.theunion.com/article/20080101/NEWS/842608779/-1/BLOTTER

How nice that it specifies semi-automatic gunfire. Not SAO revolver fire. Or muzzle loading gunfire. Nor fully automatic gunfire.

Piper
01-05-2008, 8:37 AM
I don't know about anyone else here, but I also carry a digital recorder and a camera that allows me to record up to 3 hours of video. If I am pulled over and my vehicle is searched without my permission, I intend to use it to back my formal citizens complaint. Cops are less likely to do anything dumb if there is a chance that paper will go in their jacket.

Oh and btw, since the cop has no expectation of privacy, you don't have to tell him/her that you are recording.

outersquare
01-05-2008, 4:34 PM
When I'm pulled over in my honda minivan, wife and kids inside, and upon handing my license and registration to the cop, and he quickly asks if i have any guns in the vehicle (and I do, legally stowed), how do I answer? Do I say "I don't want to answer that question" because he doesn't have PC to ask or pursue a search?

I know it's not something asked at a traffic stop, but if it is....what's safe protocol regardless of what firearm I'm carrying?


yes, someone please address this

metalhead357
01-05-2008, 8:55 PM
yes, someone please address this

Question of the century.

Number 1...Dont lie.

Beyond that? I've always just told 'em. It sbeen about a 60/40 split...60% just asking where it is, what it is and asking if its unloaded and then droping the subject. The other 40% at the mention of it want to see it and confirm its unloaded.............

Dont want the hassle? Short of not driving..... I dunno.... Smash a blood pack on yer face so when the cop comes up and sees ya' you can say you're off to go get cleaned up!!!!!!!!!!!!

outersquare
01-05-2008, 9:33 PM
what if you say that you're not obligated to answer his questions?

artherd
01-06-2008, 12:24 AM
I say "I have no contraband of any sort in my vehicle." Most see this as a verbose engineer's response and don't press it.

If they do press it "I said do you have any weapons?"

I would then respond "I believe I already answered your question, moving on..."

duenor
02-06-2008, 8:21 AM
Cops don't ask everybody they stop about guns, don't give them a reason to ask. If they do ask, just look at them funny.

Are you sure about that?
I was stopped last february 12th.
I have NO stickers on my car. I do not wear camo or anything like that. I drive a very humble little blue car. Nothing inside my car's cabin indicated any sort of firearms activity.

yet the very first question the cop asked, before even my license and registration, was: "Sir, do you have any firearms inside your car?"

I am 100% certain that they ran my plates and found that I own either handguns, rifles, or an 03 FFL (I've got all of the above).

Liberty1
02-07-2008, 7:54 AM
I don't know about anyone else here, but I also carry a digital recorder and a camera...

Oh and btw, since the cop has no expectation of privacy, you don't have to tell him/her that you are recording.

+1

I cannot stress enough that having those should be as important as having gas in your tank. Your very liberty may hinge on proving your side of the story! You spend thousands on your guns. Spend a few hundred on TWO recording devises one on your person and one to leave in your vehicle if you are removed and sat in a patrol car. Hopefully one will survive to make it into court if needed and will contain your very clear statement "I don't consent to a search of myself or my car, but I will comply with all lawful orders".

If they have PC you're going to get searched any way. If they don't, you may just give yourself a get out of jail quick card with a good civil case against them too.

Calling your voice mail or home phone answering mashine with your cell phone and having it on speaker is also a good way to document the encounter.

http://www.flexyourrights.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

packnrat
02-08-2008, 9:32 AM
I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

best way to prevent a pc search is to have all out of site, i cover all in the back of the car with a tarp at all times, even just work stuff, as it also helps keep the eyes of the bg from knowing if there is anything to steal.:TFH:

Matt C
02-12-2008, 1:29 PM
The problem with this is that getting arrested for mere ownership of an OLL would literally make my day. I would *love* to get a chance to rake some fascist control freak over the coals for making an unlawful arrest. I would file so many vicious lawsuits, both against the department and the arresting officer himself, that the simple act of trying to defend himself would devestate him financially and emotionally.

I never put my OLL's in a case, and most of the time I just throw them in the passenger seat on my way to the range. But, so far no luck.

You must be rich. Can I have some money?:D

ETA: Try myspace.

Soldier415
02-12-2008, 1:31 PM
ETA: Try myspace.


:iagree:

:shuriken:

metalhead357
02-12-2008, 1:34 PM
You must be rich. Can I have some money?:D

ETA: Try myspace.

LOL! thats what I was thinking. Heck...I'll fight if it comes my way...but i AINT GOING LOOKING for it!!!!!!!

five.five-six
02-26-2008, 4:34 PM
The problem with this is that getting arrested for mere ownership of an OLL would literally make my day. I would *love* to get a chance to rake some fascist control freak over the coals for making an unlawful arrest. I would file so many vicious lawsuits, both against the department and the arresting officer himself, that the simple act of trying to defend himself would devestate him financially and emotionally.

I never put my OLL's in a case, and most of the time I just throw them in the passenger seat on my way to the range. But, so far no luck.


carefull what you ask for, if you get it, I may kick down a C-note or two to help you out, but, it is a long hard fight against city hall

Solidmch
02-26-2008, 4:45 PM
I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

You are absolutly wrong. However they can inspect any firearm that is in your car.

deleted by PC police
02-26-2008, 5:01 PM
If they do take your gun can you demand a receipt that describes the condition of the gun, make and model number?

five.five-six
02-26-2008, 5:06 PM
oh you will get a recipt

Matt C
02-26-2008, 5:08 PM
If they do take your gun can you demand a receipt that describes the condition of the gun, make and model number?

Yes, well not condition, but you can ask them to note any damages. This should be done automatically, but it may take them a day or so to provide it if you have 20+ guns. You may not be in a position to "demand" anything though...

artherd
02-26-2008, 6:09 PM
The problem with this is that getting arrested for mere ownership of an OLL would literally make my day. I would *love* to get a chance to rake some fascist control freak over the coals for making an unlawful arrest. I would file so many vicious lawsuits, both against the department and the arresting officer himself, that the simple act of trying to defend himself would devestate him financially and emotionally.

I never put my OLL's in a case, and most of the time I just throw them in the passenger seat on my way to the range. But, so far no luck.

Blackrazor, I'm with you, except they won't oblige us. They know we will are not only able but quite willing to make it the fight of their lives, which they will LOOSE.

Instead, they try to single out people they think lack the means and wherewithal to defend themselves, hoping to luck into making new case law.

It's disgusting.

But it's not going to work as long as the calguns community stays together like we have.

-Ben.

recshooter
04-10-2008, 1:31 AM
I see this is an older thread, but it brought up a few questions for me:

Legally speaking, does an OLL constitute a firearm (I know for DROS it does, but how about if asked at a traffic stop, do you have any firearms in the car...)? If the LEO asked about weapons, then OLL has got to be no...hopefully?

What about if you remover your upper...one friend drives the upper, one the complete lower on way to range?---this is kind of paranoid thinking, but I am curious none the less. Is this a firearm, weapon. I guess what I'm getting at is if there exists separate legal definitions for the word "firearm" (eg. one for DROS purposes, and one for possession purposes). Furthermore, I mean, a weapon could be anything (tire iron) so LEO will likely ask specifically about firearms.

Also, at a traffic stop can't you just provide ID and subsequently exercise your right to remain silent--hand 'em one of those little ACLU cards if that is your thing?

Hope I'm not rambling too much, or imparting blows with a blunt object upon a deceased member of the equine species, but this thread brought up many questions for me. Thanks for reading.

blackhawk411
04-10-2008, 7:39 AM
I have a Jeep so the gun case is clearly visible. Do they still need PC to search the vehicle/case? As long as the case is visibly locked, they cannot do anything right?

Matt C
04-10-2008, 10:12 AM
You are under no legal obligation to tell an officer about firearms that may be in your vehicle, but there is no reason to lie to him. Just say something like, "There is NOTHING illegal in this vehicle officer." If he asks again, say, "with all respect I already answered that." Don't give him anything else.

BTW all of this is in the FIRST post (which is the point of this thread).

I see this is an older thread, but it brought up a few questions for me:

Legally speaking, does an OLL constitute a firearm (I know for DROS it does, but how about if asked at a traffic stop, do you have any firearms in the car...)? If the LEO asked about weapons, then OLL has got to be no...hopefully?

What about if you remover your upper...one friend drives the upper, one the complete lower on way to range?---this is kind of paranoid thinking, but I am curious none the less. Is this a firearm, weapon. I guess what I'm getting at is if there exists separate legal definitions for the word "firearm" (eg. one for DROS purposes, and one for possession purposes). Furthermore, I mean, a weapon could be anything (tire iron) so LEO will likely ask specifically about firearms.

Also, at a traffic stop can't you just provide ID and subsequently exercise your right to remain silent--hand 'em one of those little ACLU cards if that is your thing?

Hope I'm not rambling too much, or imparting blows with a blunt object upon a deceased member of the equine species, but this thread brought up many questions for me. Thanks for reading.

recshooter
04-10-2008, 3:41 PM
...Reply erased...

anthonyca
08-16-2008, 5:24 PM
Does anyone have links to some good small recording devices that can be activated in a vehicle stop? Video and audio and prob just audio to be kept on person.

Matt C
08-30-2008, 11:26 PM
btt to get out of archive

HkUSP45
08-31-2008, 5:19 PM
...but when they say "Weapons". it could mean any kind of weapons.
They never ask, do you have any guns in the car. It's always weapon. A loose terms. Trying to get you to say yes.



Good advice to a point.....

If the officer asks though if you have weapons in the car? The Penal Code already GIVES the officer the authority to perform a *safety check* and does not need your OK......

So lying to the cop aint an option...if he smells it out and does the search you're screwed; So what's the best way to handle THAT specific scenario?

diginit
08-31-2008, 9:25 PM
A LEO can preform a safety check only if you answer yes to the question "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle" Otherwise he needs probable cause, Your permission to search, or a warrant. It is an invasion of privacy otherwise.

socalgunrunner
09-01-2008, 7:24 PM
A sad commentary about this state when we are scared of the police when we have done nothing illegal.:(

I'm not scared...I just don't like them.

Douglas711
09-02-2008, 1:59 PM
Ok weapon, anything can be used as a weapon. Can you legally say no to the question, do you have any weapons in the car? If you have a baseball bat, that can be used as a weapon, are you supposed to say yes to having a weapon if you have a bat?

A LEO can preform a safety check only if you answer yes to the question "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle" Otherwise he needs probable cause, Your permission to search, or a warrant. It is an invasion of privacy otherwise.

Matt C
09-02-2008, 6:52 PM
Just don't talk to the cops about anything, ever, under any circumstances. Simple rules, something everyone should have learned in Kindergarten. It's really not that hard guys.

That's good enough to go in the OP.

Matt C
09-02-2008, 6:53 PM
It seems there has been another very avoidable arrest related to the OLL issue. While we know our firearms are legal, local police may not. So here are BWO's rules on how not to get arrested when traveling with an OLR or any firearm.

1. Don't break traffic laws while traveling with OLLs.

2.Do not have firearms or obvious firearm cases in plain sight. Do not have other items/stickers/clothing on your person or vehicle that would indicate firearm possession. This is a good idea in any case, you don't want to advertise to criminals either.

3. If stopped, signal and pull over promptly to a safe spot. Remain seated with your hands on the wheel. If it is night/dark, turn on your interior light and do not reach for anything (including wallet or registration/insurance papers) intill instructed to do so by the peace officer. When he/she asks, inform him/her that you will be getting them out of x area and ask if it's ok. Be VERY polite and sincere. Do not make excuses for whatever violation you are accused of, nor should you admit to any violation. Simply remain silent, or state something like "I understand officer/deputy/patrolman."

3.This is MOST FREAKING IMPORTANT! If asked any questions about the contents of your vehicle, or if you will permit a search, the ONLY answer is NO. You will not tell him what's in there as it is your private stuff, and you will not let him search for the same reasons. Say so respectfully not arrogantly. You never know what is really in your car unless you watch it 24/7 and no one is in it but you. Why invite trouble? Of course if you are carrying OLLs, than you already know there could be trouble.

While some OLL arrests were due mainly to unusual circumstances many others came from simple traffic stops and probably could have been avoided. Also, following the above is likely as anything to get you out of a ticket for whatever you were stopped for, since you will probably be the most pleasant traffic stop that cop has had all day.

ETA:

and

Just don't talk to the cops about anything, ever, under any circumstances. Simple rules, something everyone should have learned in Kindergarten. It's really not that hard guys.

Matt C
09-02-2008, 6:55 PM
Ok, something is screwy here, can't edit posts... Can a mod put this thread back in the non-archive section? Thx.

VaderSpade
05-21-2009, 12:09 PM
I plan to use this answer the next time I'm asked.

"There is NOTHING illegal in this vehicle officer."

However the last time I was asked, I said yes but it's safely stowed. The officer ask if he could see it, and I told him; "if you have the right I guess I can't say no, BUT I do not wish to give up any of my civil rights. You may do nothing that interferes with my civil rights" He then ask if it was loaded, I told him no and he dropped the issue. I could tell he was not completely clear on what he could and couldn't do and because I used the words civil rights he figured I knew more than him.

GP3
05-21-2009, 12:15 PM
What if they flat out ask if there are guns in the car while you are legally transporting an OLL?

AndrewMendez
05-21-2009, 12:36 PM
What if they flat out ask if there are guns in the car while you are legally transporting an OLL?

5th Amendment!:thumbsup:

GP3
05-21-2009, 12:49 PM
What if they flat out ask if there are guns in the car while you are legally transporting an OLL?

(I was lazy and didn't read the whole thread)

Answer: "There is nothing illegal in the car". Do not lie.

Matt C
05-21-2009, 3:47 PM
(I was lazy and didn't read the whole thread)

Answer: "There is nothing illegal in the car". Do not lie.

Correct. If he asks again, "Respectfully, I already answered that question".

grahlaika
05-21-2009, 5:48 PM
Can simply telling an LEO that you don't have anything illegal in the vehicle constitute probable cause? Wouldn't that automatically raise suspicion and give them a reason to place you in their squad car while they search your vehicle? I mean if I were to be transporting drugs and I got stopped, I'd tell the LEO I wasn't carrying drugs, right?

Matt C
05-21-2009, 6:37 PM
Can simply telling an LEO that you don't have anything illegal in the vehicle constitute probable cause? Wouldn't that automatically raise suspicion and give them a reason to place you in their squad car while they search your vehicle? I mean if I were to be transporting drugs and I got stopped, I'd tell the LEO I wasn't carrying drugs, right?

No, that's not probable cause. In any case if it comes down to it a court will decide, and the bottom line is you don't have any better options.

boxbro
05-22-2009, 10:41 AM
Make sure you know the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

Bagelthief
05-23-2009, 1:50 PM
So basically, just to make sure I got it down, if you have EVERYTHING and ANYTHING gun related in your trunk, and you answer "I have nothing illegal in my car officer;" he can NOT search your car right?

Matt C
05-23-2009, 2:18 PM
So basically, just to make sure I got it down, if you have EVERYTHING and ANYTHING gun related in your trunk, and you answer "I have nothing illegal in my car officer;" he can NOT search your car right?

It's not so much that he can't as it is that you are giving him no legal cause to do so.

Amacias805
05-23-2009, 4:34 PM
Very good post BWO, and welcome back.



One other thing to watch out for would be if an LEO were to ask "do you mind if I search you vehicle?" Your first instinct would be to respond with a big fat "no" but now you have just told the LEO that you do not mind if they search your vehicle. Some people are naturally nervous or uneasy when confronted by law enforcement and can very easily make a mistake when responding to their questions.

An attorney once told me the best response to give a LEO when confronted with any kind of question asking for consent to search a vehicle would be "You may not search my vehicle." Simple, to the point, and very little chance to be misconstrued.

good point.... but to add to that.... if at anytime you are consenting to a search... you may withdraw you consent, and the search must end unless the cop has RS to continue seaching

boxbro
05-23-2009, 7:18 PM
good point.... but to add to that.... if at anytime you are consenting to a search... you may withdraw you consent, and the search must end unless the cop has RS to continue seaching

I believe the cop would have to have PC, not RS, to keep searching.
RS is enough to make a terry stop and frisk you but not enough to search your car.

Amacias805
05-23-2009, 9:52 PM
I believe the cop would have to have PC, not RS, to keep searching.
RS is enough to make a terry stop and frisk you but not enough to search your car.

probably, but since i wasn't sure, i knew at the very least they would need RS.

vintagedude88
05-31-2009, 8:13 AM
...Case law has been posted that officers can check your gun out if they spot something that likely holds a firearm....

All the more reason to get a "Discreet" bag for your OLLs rather than a "gun shaped" tactical or rifle bag.

robairto
06-02-2009, 7:09 PM
keep the upper off the lower? This is clearly legal. I don't assemble my OLLs here in Ca because I don't use BB's. All the above is good advice none the less but I travel to Nv to shoot and I don't assemble the guns till I'm there. Plus I take my high caps back and forth (yes I had them 20 yrs ago along with my RAWs). At some point, someone is going to be stripped of their guns,mags etc for no legal reason and the dept. will end up being sued. I see it as a civil rights violation now after Heller. Maybe I'm wrong because I'm not an atty. but just my personal thoughts. RB

Matt C
06-02-2009, 7:11 PM
keep the upper off the lower? This is clearly legal. I don't assemble my OLLs here in Ca because I don't use BB's. All the above is good advice none the less but I travel to Nv to shoot and I don't assemble the guns till I'm there. Plus I take my high caps back and forth (yes I had them 20 yrs ago along with my RAWs). At some point, someone is going to be stripped of their guns,mags etc for no legal reason and the dept. will end up being sued. I see it as a civil rights violation now after Heller. Maybe I'm wrong because I'm not an atty. but just my personal thoughts. RB

Are you saying you have built lowers that can accept a detachable magazine in CA? This is really not advisable.

robairto
06-02-2009, 8:07 PM
Are you saying you have built lowers that can accept a detachable magazine in CA? This is really not advisable.


Yes, I have several complete lowers with NO uppers attached. They don't meet the requirements of an AW because they aren't a center fire rifle. I think that is a correct interpertation. They aren't rimfire or center fire. They are just assembled lowers. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I am. Update:: If one of the experts can answer my question and clarify my statement about non-assembled guns (ie. no upper attached) I would appreciate it as I don't want to spread wrong information which would be harmful to someone. Thanks, RB

Matt C
06-03-2009, 2:35 AM
Yes, I have several complete lowers with NO uppers attached. They don't meet the requirements of an AW because they aren't a center fire rifle. I think that is a correct interpertation. They aren't rimfire or center fire. They are just assembled lowers. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I am. Update:: If one of the experts can answer my question and clarify my statement about non-assembled guns (ie. no upper attached) I would appreciate it as I don't want to spread wrong information which would be harmful to someone. Thanks, RB

I agree with your interpretation, but there have been convictions for lowers in that config which did not have functional uppers. Your call.

ADAM
06-04-2009, 4:57 PM
some good info gents

COBRA MASTER
06-20-2009, 2:33 PM
hey its decent info but if a le ask you if you have any firearms AND YOU ANSWER NO AND YOU HAVE THEM IN YOUR CAR. THAT IS ILLEGAL TO LIE TO LE AND THEY ARE GOING TO SEARCH YOUR CAR ANY DAMN WAY. THEY DON'T NEED YOUR PERMISSION!!! IF YOU LIE TO THEM AND THEY FIND ANY TYPE OF FIRE ARM THEY ARE GOING TO ARREST YOUR ***. I DON'T KNOW WHAT PLANET YOUR LIVING ON BRO. ( HOW DO YOU LIKE MY CAPS LOL:p) THE SAFEST THING IS TO BE HONEST AND CARRY ALL YOUR PAPERWORK FOR THE GUN SALE AND COPIES OF LAWS DIRECTLY FROM D.O.J

It seems there has been another very avoidable arrest related to the OLL issue. While we know our firearms are legal, local police may not. So here are BWO's rules on how not to get arrested when traveling with an OLR or any firearm.

1. Don't break traffic laws while traveling with OLLs.

2.Do not have firearms or obvious firearm cases in plain sight. Do not have other items/stickers/clothing on your person or vehicle that would indicate firearm possession. This is a good idea in any case, you don't want to advertise to criminals either.

3. If stopped, signal and pull over promptly to a safe spot. Remain seated with your hands on the wheel. If it is night/dark, turn on your interior light and do not reach for anything (including wallet or registration/insurance papers) intill instructed to do so by the peace officer. When he/she asks, inform him/her that you will be getting them out of x area and ask if it's ok. Be VERY polite and sincere. Do not make excuses for whatever violation you are accused of, nor should you admit to any violation. Simply remain silent, or state something like "I understand officer/deputy/patrolman."

3.This is MOST FREAKING IMPORTANT! If asked any questions about the contents of your vehicle, or if you will permit a search, the ONLY answer is NO. You will not tell him what's in there as it is your private stuff, and you will not let him search for the same reasons. Say so respectfully not arrogantly. You never know what is really in your car unless you watch it 24/7 and no one is in it but you. Why invite trouble? Of course if you are carrying OLLs, than you already know there could be trouble.

While some OLL arrests were due mainly to unusual circumstances many others came from simple traffic stops and probably could have been avoided. Also, following the above is likely as anything to get you out of a ticket for whatever you were stopped for, since you will probably be the most pleasant traffic stop that cop has had all day.

ETA:

glockwise2000
06-22-2009, 8:55 PM
Yes, I have several complete lowers with NO uppers attached. They don't meet the requirements of an AW because they aren't a center fire rifle. I think that is a correct interpertation. They aren't rimfire or center fire. They are just assembled lowers. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I am. Update:: If one of the experts can answer my question and clarify my statement about non-assembled guns (ie. no upper attached) I would appreciate it as I don't want to spread wrong information which would be harmful to someone. Thanks, RB

I believe you can not contest if your complete lower is a rimefire or centerfire if on your lower was marked 5.56. You can only claim it as either if it is marked as Multi Cal. Correct me if I am wrong.

eighteenninetytwo
06-24-2009, 1:30 PM
Just my 2 cents worth on this but I have been stopped a couple of times with rifles in the car and always found that open/friendly/chatty responses got the best results. Because I know I'm legalit's easy. If I was a cop and someone gave me an ACLU minimal answer it would immediately raise my hackles.
Q: Have you got a firearm in the car?
A: Yep I'm on my way to the range at Chabot (or wherever) to try out my new toy. I'm super excited. Want to check it out? You guys must get to practice during work hours, that would be awesome etc etc

Jagermonster
08-24-2009, 2:24 PM
Just to help clarify things for anyone that might be confused. I am a CA attorney. But, of course, this isn't legal advice in the strictest sense.

Reasonable suspicion allows a LEO to search any part of a car that is within the immediate control of the suspect. Such suspicion is only reasonable when the officer has a "reasonable belief" that you are in the commission of a crime.

Reasonable suspicion is a very low standard, so any strange behavior on your part could give a LEO reasonable suspicion. A "reasonable suspicion" search extends to the glove compartment, floor, your person, anything within your reach. Essentially, the entire cabin of the vehicle. If an officer should find any kind of contraband while performing a reasonable suspicion search, it may give him PROBABLE CAUSE to extend the search to the rest of the vehicle, INCLUDING THE TRUNK. Such contraband needn't necessarily be illegal, either.

Hypothetically, let's say you get pulled over and for whatever reason, you forget to act graciously and are instead argumentative. The LEO could claim that your behavior gave him reasonable suspicion to believe that you were engaged in illegal activity. This could allow the LEO to search the cabin of your vehicle. Let's also say that he found an empty mag or some shell casings that you didn't put in your range bag.

This could give them PROBABLE CAUSE under the "officer safety" doctrine, which could extend their search, WITHOUT NEED FOR YOUR CONSENT, to the rest of the vehicle, INCLUDING YOUR TRUNK. Once inside the trunk, he would find your OLL or what-have-you. At this point, worst case scenario, the LEO will assume you are in possession of an assault rifle. This is where it gets sticky, and you may have to jump through many subsequent legal hoops to prove that you are not, in fact, perpetrating any crime.

Basically, this is just a long-winded reiteration of previous posts; don't get pulled over. If you do, be gracious and apologetic. Just remember that if you don't act square with the LEO, it can escalate into a full blown search very quickly if he should be so inclined. DON'T GIVE A LEO ANY REASON TO SUSPECT YOU OF ANYTHING. Once you're pulled over, the LEO is in control of the situation. However, it is your job as an informed citizen to know the limits of his powers. If you do not CONSENT to a search and you are polite and gracious, an officer should have absolutely no reason to search you or your vehicle.

botsdots
08-24-2009, 8:55 PM
Flying with OLLs? !!! CHECKED OF COURSE !!!

Any advice on dealing with TSA? Does anyone know if they'll alert the PD if they think anything is illegal. I'm trying to decide if I should even take it or not. I hate the fact that I'm walking on eggshells with something totally legal.

Purple K
08-29-2009, 8:22 AM
My one experience with a cop while having firearms in the car went very well. I was running late to meet the guys at the range and got pulled over for speeding. I pulled over, rolled down the windows. Shut off engine and kept my hands on the wheel until the officer approached. Before taking my hands off the wheel I told him about the contents of my back seat (rifles, pistols, range bag, etc.). He thanked me for the info and we dealt with my speeding. Then..... He got this "kid in the toy store grin" and said whatcha got? He was a fellow Gun Nut, I showed him what I had in the back, we chatted guns for a bit and we both went our seperate ways. And no, I didn't get a ticket for speeding either.

Packy14
08-30-2009, 12:18 AM
If my handgun is unloaded and locked in a safe in my trunk... i may have loaded mags in my trunk outside of the safe and in the car's cabin legally right?

Glock21sfsd
08-30-2009, 9:10 AM
I have a question for you guys.............I drive to El entro allotand there is a border patrol checkpoint going both ways now. I read that if a LEO asks you to search your vehicle to say no, but almost half the time at the border patrol check points they want to look in my trunk and I let them. Should I say no and not let them? My thoughts are that if I say no they will pull me over to secondary and give me a hard time. So what would you do?

Geo
09-01-2009, 9:11 AM
**** 'em. No warrent, no PC, no search. Or you can be a sheep.

vintagedude88
09-01-2009, 11:05 AM
**** 'em. No warrent, no PC, no search. Or you can be a sheep.

Enuff said:yes:

bearing01
09-22-2009, 8:49 AM
I have a question for you guys.............I drive to El entro allotand there is a border patrol checkpoint going both ways now. I read that if a LEO asks you to search your vehicle to say no, but almost half the time at the border patrol check points they want to look in my trunk and I let them. Should I say no and not let them? My thoughts are that if I say no they will pull me over to secondary and give me a hard time. So what would you do?

I have this same question. Last weekend we went out to the desert and during the stop on the way we told them we were looking for a spot to go shooting. They actually told us where to go. Now, on the way back, they had a girl stopped in secondary and her trunk was open. There were at least two illegals sitting in her trunk with their head popped out. I am going to assume that if they want to search your car they will give you a hard time if you refuse.

tombinghamthegreat
09-26-2009, 7:38 PM
If my handgun is unloaded and locked in a safe in my trunk... i may have loaded mags in my trunk outside of the safe and in the car's cabin legally right?

you can have the loaded mags right next to the gun, even touching in a locked container or open carried(UOC is another subject). Just as long as the gun is unloaded you will not violate PC12031 nor violate people vs clark

916-DADDY
10-28-2009, 9:24 PM
"Sounds like , We are Guilty Untill Proovin Innocent"

I mite get some mud flaps for the rock crawler 4Runner B4 going to the Rubicon, And make sure all the turn signals and all work too.....

How sad in the USA.....

Maybe 2012 will be the ????????? times......

That is crap that alot of cops dont get schooled on whats legal and not!

Cali-Shooter
11-06-2009, 12:25 AM
You are under no legal obligation to tell an officer about firearms that may be in your vehicle, but there is no reason to lie to him. Just say something like, "There is NOTHING illegal in this vehicle officer." If he asks again, say, "with all respect I already answered that." Don't give him anything else.

This is the best advice I have found here thus far. I've been stopped and searched once when I was coming back from a plinking trip by Riverside County Sheriff LEO's. Back then, I did not know how to handle being asked "Do you have any guns in the car?" Being naive as I was, I answered "Yes," believing simple honesty was the best policy. Moments after answering, I was told to step out of the car, was searched and handcuffed (I had the misfortune of wearing a black leather jacket, chains, and baggy pants), and sat in the back of a squad car while everything was searched. I had my Saiga 762, my Ithaca 37, Sigma 9mm, Universal M1 Carbine, and my Kel-Tec Su-16CA in the car, as well as a large amount of ammo. The whole damn ordeal was a royal pain in the ***. After everything was searched, the cops made nothing of wasting my time and I was off, paranoid about the "searching rights" of cops. If only I knew back then what I know now. I'll be ready and waiting for the next stop by LEO's this time.

Also, in my experience in that stop and search, it seemed that as long as the guns you have are not LOADED, it is just fine to have LOADED MAGAZINES and/or AMMUNITION in the same container as the UNLOADED gun (My Sigma was empty, but there were 4 loaded mags next to it in the same original box).

Swatguy10_15
11-06-2009, 8:09 PM
Thats NOT great advice.. Yes, YOU ARE obligated to tell an officer you have weapons if he asks. Look up "officer safety doctrine" and all the associated case laws. If he asks you if you have any weapons, you give that kind of answer, he subsquently asks if he/she can search your vehicle and you reply no..He will find a reason to. At first hes limited to basically the interior of the vehicle "within arms reach"..If he is able to transition from suspicious to pc and then finds the weapons after youve said no..Now youre in kim chi..To what extent is arguable, but why go through the hassle?
Dont give them a reason to stop you for one.. Secondly, if youre asked a simple question,lying will not go over well..If youre weapons are legal and compliant then why lie/play word games? Stay legal and theres no issue even if you do have weapons.
No one seems to want to evaluate the reasoning behind the LEO's doing what they do. Youre in SO Cal, its a rough town. There is a HUGE gang problem and weapons are an everyday thing. Officers die because the wrong people have firearms.Civilians die, because of firearms in the wrong hands. Try placing yourself in theyre shoes... Traffic stops are THE most dangerous of all contacts with the public. Instead of just assuming theyre out to get you and that evil OLL, just talk to them like the humans that they are..The bullet buttons a pretty much accepted thing now..Stay safe, stay legal and all will be well.

Cokebottle
11-06-2009, 9:11 PM
If he is able to transition from suspicious to pc and then finds the weapons after youve said no.
None of the advice on this thread has stated that we should lie to a cop and tell him "no" when we are in fact carrying weapons.

The advice is to avoid directly answering the question (which would be giving up our 4th and 5th rights) by clearly stating that we are carrying nothing illegal, and to refuse consent to search.

If he is asking for consent, he does not have RS or PC. If he has RS or PC, he will not ask for consent, and refusal of consent cannot be construed to RS or PC. The intimidation that many feel when faced by an officer makes them feel that refusal to consent would be used at RS.

If a person chooses to give up their 5th amendment rights and answer the question directly, then yes... it would be stupid and big trouble to lie.

lawnrevenge
11-09-2009, 5:33 PM
Someone needs to go back to law school. Day 1, Lesson 1 re: criminal defense, you DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. PERIOD. It's not that hard folks. Do not give them directions to the grocery store. Do not discuss the weather. Do not talk to them about ANYTHING, ever. If they ask you questions, do not reply with anything other than "I do not consent to any search". There is simply no reason to speak, converse, discuss or reason with a police officer about anything outside of courtroom.

AMEN.

Denver
11-10-2009, 4:00 PM
OK...

I really do see both sides of this. On the one hand lets say you get pulled over by a guy who is a real hole (you don't know this yet) and he asks you about firearms. In the effort to just be low key you could just say "I do, and they are all legal" you still do not have to consent to search if he asks.

This to me seems much more mellow and likely to make someone predisposed to hair trigger upset to let it pass. On the other hand if you evade the question it is likely to piss him off. Now a pissed off cop with a touch of corruption could be likely to search your vehicle w/o probable cause or consent. Remeber it is just you and him on the side of the road, he could tell the judge whatever he wants to say that he had PC.

You do not know who is pulling you over and it is much better to play the game than to be what appears to him/her as being in contempt of an officer. Notice the italics, I said appears.

The police can do anything they want, it's your word against them and the judge and DA usually side with the police.

Now you could just give them the silent treatment, they could cuff and stuff you, take your OLL and then you could get let go later on and get your OLL back in a couple of months (think beurocracy), but why the hasle when you could just play Mary Poppins for a few minutes.

Just my 0.02

BTW I know some pretty liberal CHP around here so this issue is much more complex than just staying silent.

Cokebottle
11-10-2009, 4:28 PM
OK...

I really do see both sides of this. On the one hand lets say you get pulled over by a guy who is a real hole (you don't know this yet) and he asks you about firearms. In the effort to just be low key you could just say "I do, and they are all legal" you still do not have to consent to search if he asks.
Catch 22.

If you admit to having weapons, then you cannot deny him his right to conduct an "e-check" pursuant to PC 12031e to verify that they are empty.

This puts you in the unfortunate position of having the vehicle open. If the vehicle is open and unlocked, then all contents become "plain sight" and subject to search without permission.

The only way around that would be the difficult procedure of getting out of your vehicle and locking the door, then moving to the trunk/tailgate, removing the gun cases yourself, placing them in the custody of the officer, and immediately re-locking the vehicle to prevent further search without consent.

PBRStreetgang
12-01-2009, 1:12 PM
I hope to not make this too long so please bare with me. I am a retired cop, and avid gun owner. And as a LE I would like to put in my two cents. I have always been a good guy cop. I liked to treat everyone with respect until they did something that warranted my not doing so. However, with the advent of the “officer safety doctrine” and the Patriot Act, our department policy became a very simple one. Everyone was asked, traffic stop or FI, “do you have any weapons.” If someone responded “yes, they are in the trunk” I generally never asked another question about it, with the exception on the occasional stop where the individual(s) elaborated on what he/she had in the trunk, and we ended up having a nice conversation on the accuracy, and affordability of the weapon(s).

Now before I elaborate on the next paragraph please keep in mind a couple of things. First, I am lot older now, and have a much different attitude, and although it was my job, and stealing a line from “Cool Hand Luke” “calling it your job boss don’t make it right” at the time I was doing what our department dictated, and what I was taught.

I had on one occasion a person say something along the lines of “I have nothing illegal in my vehicle.” I asked him if he was LE or an Attorney, and how he was so certain that he had nothing illegal in his automobile. Again he stated he had nothing illegal in the vehicle. I felt that this was being evasive, and as such gave me reasonable suspicion to search his immediate area within the vehicle. Within the vehicle I found 2 spent 9mm casings. Since we were stopped in an area that had a “history” of violent crime, which one can argue is almost every major city in the US at some place and at some point, I felt I now had probable cause to search the rest of the vehicle.

Long story short, we went to court, the court found I was justified in my reasonable suspicion because “of what could be considered an evasive answer to my questions” and my probable cause search was justified because the “spent shell casings were consistent with type and caliber of known assaults in the area”.

The bottom line is two fold. First, if LE wants to look, they will find a way. It is really not that hard, and especially in the current political and world climate, it is almost too easy I am sorry to say. Second and ultimately the only real thing that matters avoid the problem and have nothing illegal in your vehicle. It is really the only defense you have in the long run.

We can write all day here in this forum about how to avoid problems with the police, be it OLL, concealed carry, or whatever. It really is about the facts. If you are breaking the law, you are getting a ticket, or going to jail. Do the innocent find themselves in bad situations unjustifiably? Yes it happens, and I am hopeful that the legal system, flawed in places it might be, can and will protect them.

Know the laws, obey them, and work to educate those who do not, and maybe we as gun owners can one day no longer be looked upon as potential “bad guys”, especially in a society where it is supposed to be our right to keep and bear them.

Matt C
12-01-2009, 2:42 PM
A person told you that they were not doing anything illegal and that caused you to have a reasonable suspicion that they were doing something illegal? Does that make sense to you?

In any case, a search of a person (or in this case his immediate area in the vehicle) for weapons is always easy to justify, and courts have historically sided with officers in that respect. I guess I could then add, Don't have shell casings lying around your car, but I think it's pretty obvious that could lead to a search. You would not have been able to develop PC for a search without those things.

So basically to recap:

If a person says he has weapons (legal or otherwise) a search of the area(s) containing weapons is likely, and will probably hold up the way the law is currently written for unloaded checks.

If a person says “I have nothing illegal in my vehicle” there is no PC to search beyond the immediate area of the person (where he won't have anything that would give further PC if he has any sense). Regardless, a search seems less likely if the person gives the statement of “I have nothing illegal in my vehicle" and that statement is unlikely to be incriminating in any way.

It's all well to say "Know the laws, obey them" and hope the justice system will protect you, but the fact is many here have enough experience to know that simply is not good enough. You must protect yourself legally in any encounter with law enforcement and avoid situations where an officer's lack of knowledge (or worse) can lead to an arrest.

bakokid
12-01-2009, 9:26 PM
OK...

I really do see both sides of this. On the one hand lets say you get pulled over by a guy who is a real hole (you don't know this yet) and he asks you about firearms. In the effort to just be low key you could just say "I do, and they are all legal" you still do not have to consent to search if he asks.

This to me seems much more mellow and likely to make someone predisposed to hair trigger upset to let it pass. On the other hand if you evade the question it is likely to piss him off. Now a pissed off cop with a touch of corruption could be likely to search your vehicle w/o probable cause or consent. Remeber it is just you and him on the side of the road, he could tell the judge whatever he wants to say that he had PC.

You do not know who is pulling you over and it is much better to play the game than to be what appears to him/her as being in contempt of an officer. Notice the italics, I said appears.

The police can do anything they want, it's your word against them and the judge and DA usually side with the police.

Now you could just give them the silent treatment, they could cuff and stuff you, take your OLL and then you could get let go later on and get your OLL back in a couple of months (think beurocracy), but why the hasle when you could just play Mary Poppins for a few minutes.

Just my 0.02

BTW I know some pretty liberal CHP around here so this issue is much more complex than just staying silent.

good point on them saying what they want to a judge. i have personally seen a case and testified where the cop pulled the cop for "inoperable tail light" when asked that that meant he said "did not illuminate." the light was broken but covered by the red tape (completely.)
my testimony and investigators testimony and video tape proved the cop to be full of crap.....the prosecutions jaws hit the floor..but in the end the judge still took the cops word for it. talk about justice.

PBRStreetgang
12-03-2009, 12:45 AM
"A person told you that they were not doing anything illegal and that caused you to have a reasonable suspicion that they were doing something illegal? Does that make sense to you?"

As an honest law abiding citizen, I do see your point, however you must have never been LE. As a police officer, I have rarely had any criminal ever say they were guilty and were doing something illegal. Almost everyone says they are "not doing anything illegal" ;)

Good luck, and be safe.

Mendo223
12-04-2009, 1:20 PM
I have a hard time believing that the cop is gonna accept a NO when he sees the big black case in my trunk. (i have suv so you can see into back seats and trunk area)

should i tint my windows?

what if they decide to make up some stuff like "i smell beer" (a bottle from a sixpack broke) or i smell smoke (my stoner brother always smells like weed and he was in the car earlier)

i like the thread but i still think a cop is gnna wanna see whats in the gun case or backpack or whatever. they are nosy invasive people.

Mendo223
12-04-2009, 1:25 PM
pbr basically summed up my suspicions. cops can do whatever they want. i dont understand why they can just "protect and serve" instead of harassing and invading peoples privacys, causing troubles and ruining peoples lives, just to fill their quotas. i never want to become a cop, they must have no souls.

Cokebottle
12-04-2009, 1:45 PM
Put a small guitar amp in the back next to it.... he'll see the amp and his brain will "click" into "guitar" when he sees the case instead of "gun".

He might then change the question to "do you have any drugs or needles in the car?", but won't mention guns ;)

bakokid
12-04-2009, 9:38 PM
pbr basically summed up my suspicions. cops can do whatever they want. i dont understand why they can just "protect and serve" instead of harassing and invading peoples privacys, causing troubles and ruining peoples lives, just to fill their quotas. i never want to become a cop, they must have no souls.

unfortunately thats what our counrty has come to. we always hear about how bad law enforcement has it, how hard the job is, so then the answer is to make their job easier by taking away more rights of the people. then they get the da an judges on their side to, they all work together and the civilian who pays their bills is the dangerous outsider. not that there isnt good cops out there, they r just few and far between.

Matt C
12-04-2009, 11:13 PM
As an honest law abiding citizen, I do see your point, however you must have never been LE.

Wrong.


As a police officer, I have rarely had any criminal ever say they were guilty and were doing something illegal. Almost everyone says they are "not doing anything illegal" ;)

Which is why I would never bother asking. I either developed RS/PC, or had some other legal avenue to search the vehicle, or I let the person go. What you are basically saying is that this: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." means nothing to you and you can search whomever you want.

ja308
12-07-2009, 8:09 AM
I believe a re reading of the 4th amendment is in order.
ja308

ja308
12-07-2009, 8:13 AM
thank you Blackwater Ops,for your service +knowledge.

TURBOELKY
12-08-2009, 7:03 PM
I always thought if I told a cop "no you cant search", they would figure out somehow to search because you said NO. What are they going to do when you say no?? just say "ok, no problem, have a great day young man!"? Doubt it. If my stuff was not homebuilt, I wouldn't be so worried. But if I get pulled over and they find a ak-pistol (home built) in my pickup, they are more than likely going to flip!:eek: I did put some markings on it, and a personal serial number so they dont think I defaced the numbers, but there still is no registration. Although we may be aware there is no registration needed on a homebuilt gun, most of them are NOT! And that is what scares me....but I'll still go shooting with it.

bakokid
12-09-2009, 8:36 AM
keep a sled/clip in it, it holds no bullets thus making the homemade pistol legal, take it out when u get to ur destination.....as for reg for a homemade pistol im not real clear on.....and say "i do not consent to search."
more power to u for the home made stuff.

Cokebottle
12-09-2009, 11:49 AM
keep a sled/clip in it, it holds no bullets thus making the homemade pistol legal, take it out when u get to ur destination.....as for reg for a homemade pistol im not real clear on.....and say "i do not consent to search."
more power to u for the home made stuff.
"Do not consent to search" doesn't work if he can see the gun case, or if you answer "Yes" to the question "Do you have any guns".
If you have a gun and he knows it, he is within his rights to perform an e-check to verify that it is unloaded and being transported legally.
He does not have the right (though will probably do it anyways) to run the serial number unless he has RS/PC that you have or intend to commit a crime.

That said, it's still a pretty loose definition of "commit a crime", IE, the gun is locked in your trunk, but the rear seats fold down without a key and the gun is not in it's own locked container. While he may let you slide with a warning that the trunk is not adequate with the folding rear seat if you are cool and cooperative, he does have you on "committed a crime" and it would give him the legal authority to run the serial numbers.

bakokid
12-10-2009, 7:41 AM
good point but i see searching the vehicle and doing an "e-check" as two different things.

Bhobbs
12-16-2009, 2:24 PM
If you deny a LEO permission to search your car can that be then used as probable cause to search it? I mean they could say that any person with nothing to hide would have no reason to deny the search. Only people involved in illegal activities would deny the search. My dad was pulled over a while back for a burned out tail light and he denied the search. They then proceeded to remove him from the car and search it for 2 hours finding nothing. He filed a report but nothing came from it.

odysseus
12-16-2009, 2:35 PM
My dad was pulled over a while back for a burned out tail light and he denied the search. They then proceeded to remove him from the car and search it for 2 hours finding nothing. He filed a report but nothing came from it.

This is a common sad state of affairs in reality. While LE often gets certain criminals this way, they also burn normal legal people all the time with nonsense like that of trumped up PC to search. Then comes the "you had nothing to worry about then, you weren't doing anything illegal", or the classic "you shouldn't be around here", but your civil liberties bruised up a bit, and an ever slowly increasing police powers over it.

It will always be the classic challenge, LE doing a frustrating job, citizens wanting to "crack" down at any cost, and the same citizens being handled badly by new tactics and bends of the law to get the job done.

AndrewMendez
12-17-2009, 3:00 AM
If you deny a LEO permission to search your car can that be then used as probable cause to search it? I mean they could say that any person with nothing to hide would have no reason to deny the search. Only people involved in illegal activities would deny the search. My dad was pulled over a while back for a burned out tail light and he denied the search. They then proceeded to remove him from the car and search it for 2 hours finding nothing. He filed a report but nothing came from it.

That is against your 4th amendment rights, and your father should talk to a Lawyer.

bakokid
12-17-2009, 8:12 AM
If you deny a LEO permission to search your car can that be then used as probable cause to search it? I mean they could say that any person with nothing to hide would have no reason to deny the search. Only people involved in illegal activities would deny the search. My dad was pulled over a while back for a burned out tail light and he denied the search. They then proceeded to remove him from the car and search it for 2 hours finding nothing. He filed a report but nothing came from it.

oh those poor officers their job must be so hard and stressful! (sarcasm)
thats what they sign up for and get paid well for. at the very least they should get a few years in prison for what they did. i cant watch the show Law and Order cause they constantly bash our rights cause it makes their job harder....and recently said people like glenn beck make people murder immigrants when they should be worried about a broken health care system....
dont believe someones bs when they try to sell out ur rights whether it be to fight terrorism, help LE, or save us from global warming. those are the potential cost of freedom and as such are our individual choice and not up for govt protection. protect yourself, feed yourself, buy yourown healthcare, and leave everyone else alone

Mr.CRC
12-21-2009, 9:44 AM
pbr basically summed up my suspicions. cops can do whatever they want. i dont understand why they can just "protect and serve" instead of harassing and invading peoples privacys, causing troubles and ruining peoples lives, just to fill their quotas. i never want to become a cop, they must have no souls.

They are human, and as humans will act according to the incentive system in which they function. It is as simple as they collect a paycheck in return for writing citations and arresting citizens. There is no solution to be found by appealing to ideals or principles, ie. "the police should protect and serve." Maybe they should, but reality is they won't because that is not the incentive. There may be a few principled LEOs, but they are the minority. Even many who think they are principled (as with all of us) really act according to incentives. The vast majority of people do not behave according to principles, rather their behavior is conditioned according to incentives. Therefore, on average, that is how groups of people will behave.

The only hope is to change the incentives from getting paid to arrest (an incentive structure which is more profitable when there is more crime, to getting paid to minimize arrests and crime. Privatization of security services and voluntary government (or DROs) is the only hope. Unfortunately, only a tiny minority have ever even heard of the libertarian free market concepts that could provide solutions, and the government schools statist indocrination camps do everything in their power to ensure that a child's mind never hears of any ideas that may hint at the possibility that we could solve our own problems with private institutions.

I suppose that an interim improvement may also be possible, without so far reaching a transformation as to voluntary government, by incrementally changing the legal structure so as to increase the degree to which the state must prove not just violation of the law, but criminal intent to violate the law, in such cases as frequently plague gun owners who are threatened with draconian punishments for innocuous errors in following the law.

Either improvement however seems unlikely, as it appears we are sliding inexorably toward totalitarianism, regardless of the protestations of both sides of the one party system. The left, in addition to being entirely incapable of comprehending markets, can't grasp that their every proposal to help simply increases the state's power. The right can't grasp that you simply can't retain "freedom" while at the same time expanding a global empire (increasing state power). Both sides are hopelessly easy to dupe into believing that "threats" are lurking around every corner. It is not incorrect that there are threats. But the fact is that almost the entirety of the "threats" are self-created. This will remain the case as it is in the state's interest to see it continue. We have no intention of defeating our "enemies," because the state largely created them. While they may be a threat to the safety of the people, they are for that very reason the health of the state. Again, people function only according to incentives.

If you wish to accuse me of wandering, I concede guilt.

wayneco
12-25-2009, 7:17 AM
If you are stopped by police, you aren't required to converse with him. You need to hand over your license, vehicle registration and proof of insurance.

Wouldn't an appropriate answer to any "knock and talk" questions which is nothing more than an attempt to interview a subject "here is my license, registration and proof of insurance, officer. I don't believe we have anything to discuss" be sufficient?

I often drive around the country in an expensive RV. Sometimes the cops knock and talk. If you're foolish enough to willingly be engaged, it is your fault. I remember once I loaded up from my building I own there and ready to pull out of San Francisco but it was too late to drive so my wife and I decided to go to sleep there in a legal parking spot nearby with my then 5 week child in the vehicle. The cops came by for a knock and talk and asked me to invite them inside at about 2am in the morning. I laughed mightily and told them police or not, waking me up at 2am and asking to be invited inside wasn't polite, police or not and that I never invite police into my domicile or residence, which this motorcoach was at the time — and declined.

What could they do? Nothing. They left. I told them not to wake me up after 10pm ever again if they saw me parked around there, it wasn't appropriate and sent them packing. Never got visited by SFPD again, pulled out in the morning for my home in northern Nevada.

My father was a CHP officer for over 25 years so I'm familiar with cops. I don't hate or disrespect them, because of my familiarity with them i don't get intimidated by them but I'm also firm with them, too. I value all my rights and try to calmly and politely assert them when necessary and it has worked out for me for decades. I also do not hesitate to tell them I'm family when one tries to engage me, I assume that sometimes it could mean the difference between a hostile and neutral or hopefully positive encounter.

The only time I discuss guns with police in California is when I'm not carrying one! :)

Grindstone
01-06-2010, 12:38 PM
"You may not search my vehicle."

An option which is a more expansive denial while still being short and sweet is, "I do not consent to any searches or seizures."

Sinixstar
01-07-2010, 1:36 AM
My experience with police has been simple.

Answer the questions. Be honest, Be direct and keep it short and sweet.
"yes sir", "no sir", "i believe I was going 55mph sir", etc...

In the example of the guy saying "i have nothing illegal in my car". Well - that's fine, but that's not what you were asked. You were asked if there's weapons in the vehicle. That's a simple yes or no question. His answer would have raised suspicion with me as well - because his answer didn't really answer the question.

WarCriminal
01-07-2010, 5:23 AM
Yeah, thats why i roll desperado style, but with a soft electric guitar case instead of a hard case. It fools EVERYONE. i actually am a guitarist when people ask. (i pretend). if i knew how 2 post pics i would.

Cokebottle
01-07-2010, 11:41 AM
Yeah, thats why i roll desperado style, but with a soft electric guitar case instead of a hard case. It fools EVERYONE. i actually am a guitarist when people ask. (i pretend). if i knew how 2 post pics i would.
Or just slap a Fender or Gibson logo on the SKB/Pelican and you're set.

Cokebottle
01-07-2010, 11:43 AM
My experience with police has been simple.

Answer the questions. Be honest, Be direct and keep it short and sweet.
"yes sir", "no sir", "i believe I was going 55mph sir", etc...

In the example of the guy saying "i have nothing illegal in my car". Well - that's fine, but that's not what you were asked. You were asked if there's weapons in the vehicle. That's a simple yes or no question. His answer would have raised suspicion with me as well - because his answer didn't really answer the question.
Okay... and when the cop's "question" isn't a question at all?

I was walking home from the post office one evening, a cop rolled into the parking lot I was walking through and simply said "You look familiar".
He repeated this several times when I didn't answer.

clintiam
01-14-2010, 9:02 PM
PC is easy enough for LEO's to get as they'll just keep you on site until the puppies with badges who eventually become canine cokeheads show up. They'll have no problem sniffing out ammo and/or the g.s.r. on the weapon itself.

diginit
01-15-2010, 8:38 PM
pbr basically summed up my suspicions. cops can do whatever they want. i dont understand why they can just "protect and serve" instead of harassing and invading peoples privacys, causing troubles and ruining peoples lives, just to fill their quotas. i never want to become a cop, they must have no souls.

This one got to me.... To Protect and to serve? Who?
It has already been proven in the SC that an police officers job is to: "Protect the interests of the city they serve and to inforce the laws." A quote from the SC decision. They have NO legal obligation to protect you as a citizen.:mad: Remember this!
So much for our forefathers busting their a*ses and dying for the cause.
Kinda makes me sick....True, police are a necessary evil, But to protect and to serve...My A*s...

team1320
02-18-2010, 12:30 AM
great info..

TURBOELKY
02-18-2010, 7:57 PM
agreed.

gorblimey
02-28-2010, 9:06 PM
This one got to me.... To Protect and to serve? Who?
[...]
Kinda makes me sick....True, police are a necessary evil, But to protect and to serve...My A*s...


To protect and serve the corporatist-statist plutocracy against the "little people". To provide the ultimate backstop - legitimized murder - for every law and regulation, whereby a cascading failure to obey ends up with the citizen on the receiving end of a mag dump.

For instance... Peon is given some bull**** ticket. "I say you turned on a red, your word against mine, that'll be $450." Peon doesn't pay the bull**** ticket. Ticket turns into a bench warrant. Peon is pulled over but doesn't wish to get arrested for bull****, "You know what, copper, go fsck yourself." Cop radios for the coroner and goes on a two week vacation.

Isaiah4Autumn
03-03-2010, 10:48 AM
just bought a 10 rounder for travel...thanks for the thread; good stuff

pottymouth310
03-04-2010, 10:22 PM
what happens if you do say "No" if a policemen ask if they can search your car. wouldn't that cause more trouble?

Cokebottle
03-05-2010, 6:06 PM
what happens if you do say "No" if a policemen ask if they can search your car. wouldn't that cause more trouble?
It depends on what lead up to the "no".
If you admitted to having guns, then he has the right to verify that they are being transported unloaded. He may or may not actually check... a couple of Calgunners have reported that they've been asked, said "Sure, it's locked up in the back", and the cop said nothing more about it.
This would also apply if the guns, or strong evidence of guns (shot up targets, ammo boxes, and a case) are in plain view.
Also, an NRA sticker has been ruled as NOT reasonable suspicion, and at least in my experience, cops appear to be aware of it, as I've been flying an NRA sticker for over 4 years and have never been pulled over.

But assuming that none of the above applies... you haven't admitted (or been asked) about having guns in the car, the courts have ruled that declining to consent to a search under your 5A rights does not justify RS/PC for a search.
However, do keep in mind that when you refuse to consent, his radar will go into high-gain looking for RS/PC, and you are unlikely to get a warning if the stop was for a traffic violation.

Francis Marion
03-06-2010, 9:51 AM
I understand and support a person's assertion of their rights.

People who own, transport and shoot OLL firearms do so legally, in my opinion.

So, if asked 'Do you have any firearms in your vehicle?', what's the down side to responding 'yes' if you're transporting them properly?

The point is, if we exclude possible risk and inconvenience from our interactions with police, we also fail to educate our police on the legal validity of OLLs.

As an OLL firearm owner, should you be ready, even if you're not willing, to talk to a cop (with a CalGuns flowchart and passages of relevant CA law), at least until such time as OLLs are no longer remarkable.

As an OLL firearm owner, you can assert your rights to deflect police attention from the contents of your vehicle, of course. But the day may come when you find yourself, despite your preference otherwise, discussing the contents of your gun case with an LEO, and I think you had better be prepared to discuss this matter in a confident, practiced and legally sound manner.

OLL owners should have the reference material in mind (and in print!) to take- and pass- this 'final exam' when it is given.

Cokebottle
03-06-2010, 12:34 PM
The point is, if we exclude possible risk and inconvenience from our interactions with police, we also fail to educate our police on the legal validity of OLLs.
A cop that's ready to take you in for your OLL is not going to be open to an education from you.
Put yourself in his place, but change the situation, maybe to something drug related.
Who are you going to believe... your training, or what your suspect tells you is legal.
As an OLL firearm owner, should you be ready, even if you're not willing, to talk to a cop (with a CalGuns flowchart and passages of relevant CA law), at least until such time as OLLs are no longer remarkable.
The flowchart may be helpful, maybe not.
I was introduced to it and lurked on the forum for about 6 months before I joined CGN, and my first reaction when my friend showed me the link was "Ya, right... I can own an assault rifle with one small change to the mag release just because some yahoos on the internet claim that it's legal? I don't think so!"

Now today... combining the flowchart with the SacPD and OCSD training bulletins, you've got a better leg to stand on.

Francis Marion
03-06-2010, 12:47 PM
Agreed, nobody wants to live in a police state, but the prospect of choosing to talk to a cop about your OLL is a situation which can happen, despite assertions of rights and any preventive measures taken. OLL owners may want to practice for that time to avoid a needless arrest, to educate the police, and end the matter uneventfully.

If you clam up, you increase the cop's index of suspicion and maybe therefore your probability of arrest. Cop sees an 'illegal' rifle, the owner won't explain away the illegality, so unsurprisingly the cop makes an arrest. Yes, you're asserting your rights the whole time, but choosing to clarify the cop's mistaken understanding might have prevented the whole incident. You can go about your business without the hassle and expense of arrest and defense. I'd rather buy cases of ammo than buy time inside and release from the justice system for the sake of proving a point. Think it out before hand what you're going to do and why, and prepare.

Roseville Ranger
03-06-2010, 2:02 PM
Law enforcement officers, when on duty, have only one purpose, and that is arrest and cite citizens. They have no other function in our society.

that seems awful general. As someone who was 1 step away from being a CHP officer, the way you see officers is as a bad guy. they are there to help, i have several times gotten advice, etc from them, there job is to protect people first and help people second.

Pavel
03-28-2010, 11:14 PM
This is a great thread. I started getting into the OLL AR's and guns in general a couple of years back, and most of my time having firearms and transporting them from place to place has been spent in Arizona. In AZ, I got used to having a loaded firearm next to me in a holster in my vehicle most of the time and open carrying wherever and such.

Now that I am living back in CA, I worry about driving anywhere with a firearm and espescially my Colt LE6940 (has a raddlock now). I guess I don't feel confident that I know the laws well enough, espescially
since laws pertaining to firearms even vary from county to county in CA.

So let me see if I have the basics down.... 1. I can drive with my rifle (even oll) in the back of my tahoe in rifle case 2. Handgun must be in a locked case in back 3. Firearms must be unloaded

I might be making a range trip soon. Excellent point about keeping gun cases out of view as well as all other firearms related stuff. Am I missing something?? Thanks guys

frankiejoe577
03-31-2010, 6:15 PM
When I'm pulled over in my honda minivan, wife and kids inside, and upon handing my license and registration to the cop, and he quickly asks if i have any guns in the vehicle (and I do, legally stowed), how do I answer? Do I say "I don't want to answer that question" because he doesn't have PC to ask or pursue a search?

I know it's not something asked at a traffic stop, but if it is....what's safe protocol regardless of what firearm I'm carrying?


yes, someone please address this



I do not have anything illegal in my vehicle

Cokebottle
03-31-2010, 7:24 PM
I do not have anything illegal in my vehicle
Not smart.
While it is not consenting to a search, you don't know what one of the kids may have picked up, or what a passenger may have left in your car... or if you bought it used, what the previous owner may have left behind.

Simply politely refuse to answer the question.

mgw12
04-03-2010, 7:54 PM
A am so NEW to this it is crazy..I have been around firearms my whole life and was trained to have GREAT respect for them..BUT I have no clue of the abreviations that are used!?? :o:confused::D

What does "OLL" mean AND is there a special list to teach me these abreviations!? ...ask me something about mountain biking, rock crawlin, 4 wheelin, freshwater fishing or the bible! I might be able to help you out!!!;) heh-heh

Vladimir
04-04-2010, 9:36 PM
A am so NEW to this it is crazy..I have been around firearms my whole life and was trained to have GREAT respect for them..BUT I have no clue of the abreviations that are used!?? :o:confused::D

What does "OLL" mean AND is there a special list to teach me these abreviations!? ...ask me something about mountain biking, rock crawlin, 4 wheelin, freshwater fishing or the bible! I might be able to help you out!!!;) heh-heh

OLL stands for Off List Lower, lower receiver on an ar-15 thats considered the "Firearm" and goes through the backround check.

advocatusdiaboli
05-13-2010, 8:19 AM
Also, an NRA sticker has been ruled as NOT reasonable suspicion, and at least in my experience, cops appear to be aware of it, as I've been flying an NRA sticker for over 4 years and have never been pulled over.

Can you cite that case please? I am curious to know if it is controlling in California.

rifle man
05-15-2010, 3:40 AM
New to calguns. Have read the flowchart..but not sure i understand it. Bought my stag
2ht ar15 at a gunshow in coasta mesa about two years ago. It came equiped with a bullet button. I was told by the salesman that with the bb makes the rifle cal legal and
also that the rifle could now possess all the nasty,except highcap mags.Im still very nervous transporting it to the range. Has anyone out there heard any thing from cal DA
or DOJ on the legality of the bullet button?

Cokebottle
05-15-2010, 3:55 PM
New to calguns. Have read the flowchart..but not sure i understand it. Bought my stag
2ht ar15 at a gunshow in coasta mesa about two years ago. It came equiped with a bullet button. I was told by the salesman that with the bb makes the rifle cal legal and
also that the rifle could now possess all the nasty,except highcap mags.Im still very nervous transporting it to the range. Has anyone out there heard any thing from cal DA
or DOJ on the legality of the bullet button?
DOJ is silent on the issue. The only official response from them is "It is up to the 55 individual California District Attorneys"

WRT to the various DAs, people have been arrested for legal AR's and AK's equipped with a maglock.
To date, there have been zero successful prosecutions, and most recent cases have resulted in the charges being dropped after a phone call from one of the Calguns attorneys.

Both Sacramento PD and Orange County Sheriff have issued training memos informing the field officers that the bullet button is indeed within the boundaries of the law.

I printed out color copies of these memos, along with the flowchart, and laminated them to keep with me.
I also made 20 copies of all of the above in B&W to hand to any officer (or civilian) who may have questions.

rifle man
05-15-2010, 11:04 PM
thanks cokebottle. Very helpful information, made copies of the pdf. I will carry these in my rifle case from now on.

Wherryj
05-28-2010, 5:38 PM
I can't belive no one's posted this yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Just remember, "If your woman is mad at you, leave her at home."

Is this what that link was supposed to lead to?
"500 Internal Server Error
Sorry, something went wrong.

A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation.

If you see them, show them this information: (approximately 400 random characters)"

I suppose that this post being 2 years old might have something to do with it, but that's a pretty funny error code.

MoBait
06-08-2010, 7:08 PM
Last week I was driving home after a fishing trip and made a u turn at a 3 way intersection (no stop sign or signal lights). The officer behind me cut me off while I was making the u-turn. Two officers exit the vehicle and approach. The driver asks for license, reg and insurance. Before I can get them:

PO: Do you have any firearms in the car?
ME: I have nothing illegal in the vehicle.
PO: I asked if you have any firearms in the car.
ME: I do not have anything illegal in my vehicle.
PO: Step out of the car and put your hands behind your back.
ME: (Handcuffs applied)
PO: Do you think a legal gun wont kill someone?
PO: When I ask you if you have any firearms it's for my survival.
PO: Did you know you have committed a crime by not answering my question?
ME: What crime is that?
PO: Penal code 148, you should check it out.
ME: I will.
PO: Did you know its illegal to have a gun in your car?
ME: Really? How do people go to shooting ranges?
PO: So, are you getting back from the shooting range?
ME: No.
PO: Wait here.
ME: (stood for 10 minutes)
PO: So you said you were at the range today, right?
ME: No, I did not say that.
PO: (Takes my handcuffs off and gives me citation for illegal u-turn)
Cover PO: Did you ask to search his car?
PO: I figured he wouldn't let us.
PO: Will you let us take a look in your car?
ME: Not without a warrant.
Cover PO: (to me): Just wait, one of these days it'll be your turn
PO: I hope you don't leave your car parked here overnight.
ME: Have a good night officers.

It was definitely a very weird encounter. Did I handle this improperly?

Matt C
06-08-2010, 10:33 PM
Actually you did pretty well except here:

PO: Did you know its illegal to have a gun in your car?
ME: Really? How do people go to shooting ranges?
PO: So, are you getting back from the shooting range?

He was baiting you and you took the bait rather than remain silent, then you gave him a reason to go fishing for probable cause. He could have easily searched and then said he thought you said you were at the range and were transporting weapons, even though that's not really what you said.

Every time you open your mouth you are risking the officer hearing or interpreting something you say as either a waiver of your rights, or as something incriminating. That is why it's best to remain silent if you are asked any questions, ESPECIALLY if you are already in handcuffs. Overall I think you did very well though, you did avoid a search, which could have caused you much more problems depending on what the officer thought about what was in your car.

By the way, PC 148 is resisting or obstructing, and exercising your right to remain silent cannot be prosecuted under that code. If you actually lied and said there were no weapons when there were weapons, then MAYBE he might have something.

slobson
06-12-2010, 8:39 AM
Last week I was driving home after a fishing trip and made a u turn at a 3 way intersection (no stop sign or signal lights). The officer behind me cut me off while I was making the u-turn. Two officers exit the vehicle and approach. The driver asks for license, reg and insurance. Before I can get them:

PO: Do you have any firearms in the car?
ME: I have nothing illegal in the vehicle.
PO: I asked if you have any firearms in the car.
ME: I do not have anything illegal in my vehicle.
PO: Step out of the car and put your hands behind your back.
ME: (Handcuffs applied)
PO: Do you think a legal gun wont kill someone?
PO: When I ask you if you have any firearms it's for my survival.
PO: Did you know you have committed a crime by not answering my question?
ME: What crime is that?
PO: Penal code 148, you should check it out.
ME: I will.
PO: Did you know its illegal to have a gun in your car?
ME: Really? How do people go to shooting ranges?
PO: So, are you getting back from the shooting range?
ME: No.
PO: Wait here.
ME: (stood for 10 minutes)
PO: So you said you were at the range today, right?
ME: No, I did not say that.
PO: (Takes my handcuffs off and gives me citation for illegal u-turn)
Cover PO: Did you ask to search his car?
PO: I figured he wouldn't let us.
PO: Will you let us take a look in your car?
ME: Not without a warrant.
Cover PO: (to me): Just wait, one of these days it'll be your turn
PO: I hope you don't leave your car parked here overnight.
ME: Have a good night officers.

It was definitely a very weird encounter. Did I handle this improperly?

although its been stated before, it should be noted that the assertion that the car is free from anything illegal is dangerous: with state laws being numerous and obscure, violating one is meant to be nigh impossible so as to facilitate easy search. also, if you are dealing with a particularly nasty LEO (which it certainly sounds like you were) then getting into an argument/pissing match is probably not the best idea for a number of reasons. I don't meant to be overly critical or say I would be able to restrain myself from ripping into the guy either, no :TFH: here. all in all I would say bravo, way to keep your head in a tough spot

diginit
06-14-2010, 9:17 PM
Did you know it was illegal to have a gun in your car?


Why would ANY LEO say it is illegal to have a gun in your car when it isn't?. Even UOC is legal in a vehicle. Providing you are not within 1000ft of a K-12 school. LOC if in an area where shooting is not prohibited. Not to mention if in a locked case. This cop was either a complete jerk or totally ignorant of the law. Report this to his supervisor.

Dangerpin
06-15-2010, 12:58 PM
Ignorant or fishing, more likely the latter. Trying to get you to open your mouth and give them reason to investigate further, at best. At worst try to get you to incriminate yourself.

The real problem with this is it comes off as ignorance and arrogance and leaves a huge negative wake. If you were unknowledgeable about they law you could say, "A law enforcement officer told me that having a gun in your car was illegal." And FUD spreads.

I know why LEOs do it, it is such an amazingly successful tactic from what I hear. I just wish they could see all the downsides.

diginit
06-15-2010, 7:43 PM
Causing law abiding citizens to dislike and distrust LE. Making MORE enemies of their "used to be" backup. Yes. There certainly is a downside.

stshooter
06-17-2010, 2:13 PM
This is why so many folks dislike and fear police,I understand why the officer was careful,but dont be a tool I think you should write a formal complaint letter and detail the experience to there department

kel-tec-innovations
06-20-2010, 2:44 AM
DON'T TALK TO COPS, ADVICE FROM LAWYER

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SID45
06-20-2010, 3:31 AM
You did very well!!! A LEO can make up something and lie about it, just like what he said that "its is illegal to have a firearm in the vehicle. " Anything just to make you say something that would get you in trouble.

packnrat
06-21-2010, 8:11 AM
i am just glad i did not get asked about guns a couple years back. i was moving some of my rifles and pistols....must have had a good thirty of them in the truck....yes that many at one time. no joke. (and ammo)...:eek:
got pulled over had my lights on was not so good weather some miles back it was daylight and i had a plate light out...just a reason for a bored cop to pull me over. might have thought i was on the way to dump some junk. as the bed was full and under a tarp.
no ticket just a talking to. otherwise i handled it just by the book, yes sir...no sir.. only a very short answer to all questions..NO general talking. both doors locked. manual windows.



:TFH:


.

Cokebottle
06-21-2010, 6:15 PM
otherwise i handled it just by the book, yes sir...no sir.. only a very short answer to all questions..NO general talking. both doors locked. manual windows.
And 9 times out of 10, that's exactly how it's handled.

kel-tec-innovations
06-22-2010, 4:37 PM
So basically when a Cop ask you if you have a firearms in your vehicle you should just answer I have nothing illegal in the car ?

RivCoFireman
06-30-2010, 5:52 PM
Instead of "I have nothing illegal in my car" Which seems like evading to me. Whats wrong with invoking your 5th amendment right against self-incrimination? Afterall, anything you say can and will be used against you. Merely invoking doesn't give PC, does it?

BAGunner
07-15-2010, 3:17 PM
When confronted with "Do you have firearms in your vehicle", can you counter that with "Is it OK to record our conversation?". This way, you are not being evasive... you are implying you might bring the case to the court, and use the recording as evidence. They will know that you are law-abiding and know how to defend your rights.

Based on the Cop's response "PO: When I ask you if you have any firearms it's for my survival. ", I think they are assuming you are the criminal. Putting myself in their shoes, I think "Do you mind if I record our conversation" is a good answer.

Edit: I think you can also reply with "I don't have loaded firearm", which is the truth... answers the question... and serves the cops "survival" mindset.

Chun

Dangerpin
07-19-2010, 9:44 AM
Edit: I think you can also reply with "I don't have loaded firearm", which is the truth... answers the question... and serves the cops "survival" mindset.

Chun

If you admit that you have a firearm they are allowed to do the e-check search. Even if you specify that it is unloaded. I really don't think this answer is going to lead you anywhere you want to go.

digitalCajun
07-19-2010, 12:37 PM
You can't say "no" because that's lying
You can't say "I have nothing illegal" because you may have inadvertently broken some kind of law
You can't say "yes" because then that's PC for a search


So what's the suggested answer here?

Chaingun
07-25-2010, 6:58 AM
I had a situation 15-20 years ago while getting gas at night, a cruiser pulls up behind me and an officer jumps out accusing me of reckless driving. He then grabs the keys out of my hand and searches my vehicle, finding nothing. I received a ticket for something else, and after 1 year and going though the appeals process had the ticket thrown out by a 2nd judge.

If the officer is intent on searching your vehicle there isn't much you can do. I brought it up during the citation hearing with the 1st judge replying "there's a war on drugs, you do support the war on drugs?". There's only so much arguing you can do in a day.

Chaingun
07-25-2010, 7:06 AM
DON'T TALK TO COPS, ADVICE FROM LAWYER

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At a friends house, a DA said "Whatever you state will be used against you in court". What you state to an officer can be misconstrued in his mind to mean something else, and he may/will use it against you in court.

Matt C
08-09-2010, 8:49 AM
You can't say "no" because that's lying
You can't say "I have nothing illegal" because you may have inadvertently broken some kind of law
You can't say "yes" because then that's PC for a search


So what's the suggested answer here?

Lying to a local (city/state/county) cop is not generally a crime [lying to a FEDERAL agent probably is though, so shut up and get a lawyer]. Certainly saying I have nothing illegal to a local cop when that seems to be the case, regardless of some unknown factor, does not seem like something likely to be prosecuted. If you are really that concerned, say nothing. Nothing can't be used against you, and it can't be used at PC for a search either, because it's just that: nothing.

Instead of "I have nothing illegal in my car" Which seems like evading to me. Whats wrong with invoking your 5th amendment right against self-incrimination? Afterall, anything you say can and will be used against you. Merely invoking doesn't give PC, does it?

PC is an exception to the right to be free from search without a warrant. You don't waive one right by exercising another.

willm952
08-12-2010, 4:25 PM
Mr.CRC. Agree with you on the behavior. How do you get someone to do something for you by threat of force or give them a good reason to.

You may want to check out videos on you tube by anti-terrorist. A brit but intelligent and spot on. He's basically stating that police are revenue agents.

Just look at oakland. Lay off 80 officers. Remaining do what? Write tickets for revenue collection. Expired registration tags = threat to public safety? Not by themselves. But they are a threat to the state's income. I agree on regulation such as valid dl, insurance. Do police departments need the income from tickets etc?

Check out Colima Rd. in Rowland Hts. sometime in the early to middle of the month. At once, I saw 3 chp had someone pulled over writing ticket within 2 blocks of each other. Distance wise it was less than 1 city block. This happens regularly. We need to get chp off of local streets, they don't do a damn thing for public safety on local.

OLL, I haven't been hasseled about them. Doesn't mean I won't get hasseled.

Prudent thinking to have the registration papers for the rifle with an empty mag in the mag-well and 10/20, 10/30 or that unsightly 10/30 with the poser window.

I'm always polite to any leo I run into. Don't run into very often.
But being polite, respectful of the leo's authority but assertive is much more helpful to your cause than rude and belligerent. Why needlessly provoke a situation?

Just my 2 cents.

SoninCA
08-27-2010, 6:30 PM
I need help please, my son got into a traffic accident, a construction truck threw a ladder, my son swerved to avoid it and hit an wall.
My son had legal firearms stored in his trunk as he was going to the range this weekend.
The CHP at first said that none of the legally purchased (all purchased new through proper FFL) the CHP said that none of them checked out and that the CHP would confiscate all of the guns.
When my son mentioned he knew a former higher up in NRA-the handguns miraculously checked out.

BUT the two "ugly" guns did not "check" out-the excuse given was that S&W assigns the same serial number to several guns.

The CHP confiscated both CA LEGAL rifles and all of the 10 round clips.

This is about $5 Grand worth of equipment-my son is getting into three gun competition.

I am not sure where to post his I need help.

the CHP kept my son on the side of 101 for about two hours without medical care-his neck is messed up.

I am in MO and I am at wits end-how can this happen in US.

Help please.

SoninCA
08-27-2010, 6:33 PM
I want to note that my son was polite and cooperative with the officers

Cokebottle
08-27-2010, 7:02 PM
Have him get in touch with the Calguns Foundation ASAP.

SoninCA
08-28-2010, 1:39 AM
I contacted Oaklander and Mr Weise.

both lowers on firearms are OLL and legal AND both guns comply to all laws. My son is a law abiding citizen and he made sure the firearms are legal.

they confiscated the expensive sights, too , they refused to let my son remove the sights.

My son has a hurt neck, too, muscle spasms from the accident that have his neck improperly straightened out the neck....thanks, CHP for keeping my son on the side of the freeway without medical care while they searched his clothes and confiscated his CA legal OLL firearms.

"that's beautiful"--CHP quote just prior to confiscating that "beautiful" gun.

CHP officer also said to my husband that our son was not injured-is he a doctor? If my son was not injured why did ER doctor say otherwise?

Just saying the officer my husband spoke to on the phone sure reacted weird when my husband said "you guys better not be taking those guns to the range"

not only is my son's neck and back hurt from the accident (the CHP let the truck that threw the ladder get away) but the CHP has illegally confiscated the guns AND the scopes etc AND all of the CA legal magazines-why would they take the legal magazine?

CHP refused to let my son get his scopes (trigicon) that he saved up his money for.

I am a very upset momma about now-this is so illegal-the CHP violated the law here and put my son's health at risk.

SoninCA
08-28-2010, 1:42 AM
I just realized I might have made a mistake-I am understanding the OLL to mean on the legal list for CA-as my son's guns are legal.

these guys should not have kept my son on the roadside ogling his guns while my son should have been being seen by an ER doctor.

SoninCA
08-28-2010, 1:46 AM
Thank you, Rich, I am sorry as tired and worried and I forgot my manners. I am very grateful that you guys are here. very grateful. I am sick about this situation just sick.

mecam
08-28-2010, 6:03 AM
I just realized I might have made a mistake-I am understanding the OLL to mean on the legal list for CA-as my son's guns are legal.

these guys should not have kept my son on the roadside ogling his guns while my son should have been being seen by an ER doctor.

Even though they were OLL, they still need to be configured legally either by using a Bullet Button or Featureless configuration. Do you know if they were legally configured?



-

SoninCA
08-28-2010, 6:49 AM
Yes, my son researched it extensively, the confiscated guns were both California legal top to bottom.

mecam
08-28-2010, 7:01 AM
Yes, my son researched it extensively, the confiscated guns were both California legal top to bottom.

Interesting, you would think CHP would be educated about this by now. Which county did it happen in?

SoninCA
08-28-2010, 7:16 AM
On 101 near of Sunnyvale. I think it was Santa Clara-been about a decade since we lived there, so not sure of county-it is the bullet button he has on both the rifles- 100% CA legal.
I am quite concerned about whole thing. I have terrible feeling about it all. That and my son was hurt in the accident and I am about 1800 miles away in another state.

Cokebottle
08-28-2010, 11:50 AM
I just realized I might have made a mistake-I am understanding the OLL to mean on the legal list for CA-as my son's guns are legal.

these guys should not have kept my son on the roadside ogling his guns while my son should have been being seen by an ER doctor.
OLL = Off List Lower.... you were correct in your use of the term.

I wish you the best in the resolution of this issue, and with the injury, it appears that you certainly have a case for a civil suit.

SoninCA
08-28-2010, 11:43 PM
Thanks-we're getting help-kid's still in a lot of physical pain. So that is first and foremost.
Second is we just want the legal firearms returned.
Hoping that that will be the case on Monday.

SoninCA
08-31-2010, 9:51 AM
Not resolved , the situation has gone from bad to worse.

HotIce
09-08-2010, 8:14 PM
Not resolved , the situation has gone from bad to worse.

Mind you (or anyone from CGF eventually following this) to elaborate as far as legally possible, about the status of this case?

SoninCA
09-09-2010, 10:48 PM
Jason Davis is handling it-he is awesome! As is Calguns! Simply awesome!!!!!
Will post update when we can.

mecam
09-13-2010, 1:16 PM
Jason Davis is handling it-he is awesome! As is Calguns! Simply awesome!!!!!
Will post update when we can.

Awesome, keep us updated. CHP needs to start handing out the flowchart to all it's officers. :rolleyes:

SoninCA
10-04-2010, 7:16 PM
rifles returned today-over one month after they were confiscated and there is damage-bent charger handle and some other stuff bent and documented by camera at the station upon pick-up.
MRI results-my son has 5 herniated disks in his lower back as a result of the car accident.
I am not happy that he was detained for almost three hours without medical care.
Yes, the CHP need the flow chart and a better understanding of CA penal code.

2Bear
10-10-2010, 11:25 PM
Glad you got your property back.

Here's hoping your son makes a quick and full recovery.

HK Chef
05-26-2012, 12:26 PM
Just so I understand. If I have my firearms in my vehicle and get pulled over I do not have to let the officer know FIRST thing? I just want to make sure because it was mandatory if you got pulled over in Alaska to let the officer know right away before you gave any paperwork or anything.

CSACANNONEER
05-26-2012, 12:43 PM
Just so I understand. If I have my firearms in my vehicle and get pulled over I do not have to let the officer know FIRST thing? I just want to make sure because it was mandatory if you got pulled over in Alaska to let the officer know right away before you gave any paperwork or anything.

If you have a LTC, you might be required to. Since it is illegal for anyone (except those with a LTC) to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle on a public road, Ca doesn't have the same requirement that AK does. You do not have to tell a LEO that anything is or is not in your vehicle.

HK Chef
05-26-2012, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the info.

budprop
06-07-2012, 6:53 AM
Good info. I have been pulled over twice while transporting to the range, once on the way out to Jamul riding with a buddy of mine, and once on the way to Dulzura with my 9yo son. Both times were pleasant and we had no issues (other than the reason we were pulled over). The first time my buddies truck wasn't registered (I didn't check before I got in), he explained the issue (smog failure, 30 day fix it, new to CA due to active duty orders...he's an idiot), LE (CHP) told us to stay off the freeway or they would impound the truck. Agreed it was a beautiful day for shooting and told us a back-road way to get where we were going. Never once asked to see the firearms or even asked if they were loaded.
Second time I was pulled over due to a bad light on my jeep. LE ended up asking my son about firearms safety, complained about the never ending cash flow associated with owning a Jeep and told us to have a good day.
I am pretty savvy about my rights, and do NOT trust LE or Government to preserve/protect said rights. Even with the pleasant experiences I have had with LE and my weapons I have in both instances had my recorder on to protect and preserve my rights. I use a cool little app on my cell phone called cop recorder. It is easily started, will record as long as you have memory, runs in the background so it isn't detectable, and uploads to wherever you want it to.
Also, whenever you "sign" a ticket or official paperwork make sure you put "without prejudice UCC 1-308" near your signature.

NorCal Einstein
06-08-2012, 9:22 AM
Good info. I have been pulled over twice while transporting to the range, once on the way out to Jamul riding with a buddy of mine, and once on the way to Dulzura with my 9yo son. Both times were pleasant and we had no issues (other than the reason we were pulled over). The first time my buddies truck wasn't registered (I didn't check before I got in), he explained the issue (smog failure, 30 day fix it, new to CA due to active duty orders...he's an idiot), LE (CHP) told us to stay off the freeway or they would impound the truck. Agreed it was a beautiful day for shooting and told us a back-road way to get where we were going. Never once asked to see the firearms or even asked if they were loaded.
Second time I was pulled over due to a bad light on my jeep. LE ended up asking my son about firearms safety, complained about the never ending cash flow associated with owning a Jeep and told us to have a good day.
I am pretty savvy about my rights, and do NOT trust LE or Government to preserve/protect said rights. Even with the pleasant experiences I have had with LE and my weapons I have in both instances had my recorder on to protect and preserve my rights. I use a cool little app on my cell phone called cop recorder. It is easily started, will record as long as you have memory, runs in the background so it isn't detectable, and uploads to wherever you want it to.
Also, whenever you "sign" a ticket or official paperwork make sure you put "without prejudice UCC 1-308" near your signature.

I thought I could figure out what UUC 1-308 means with some quick searching, but it looks like it would take a whole day of reading to really understand what it means before I start to consider adding it to my signature when signing traffic tickets.

budprop
06-10-2012, 8:14 AM
Basically UCC 1-308 retains your common law rights. This is not the arena to discuss this but do a little reading to learn the basics. Your eyes will be opened.

2nab
06-11-2012, 2:06 PM
I've only had positive interaction with LE in regards to firearms and many of the LE I know are the most pro-gun, pro first ammendment, pro citizen carry individuals around.

What I haven't heard addressed here is while you are all speaking I hope from the perspective of a law abiding person who carries and transports in a legal fashion, nobody is acknowledging that we as law abiding may be 1 in 3, 1 in 5, or more, outnumbered by individuals who do not carry or transport legally, including those who utilize firearms for the purpose of commiting crimes. That is what the LE deals with constantly and if they ask you a couple questions to determine you are not a threat to others and send you happily on your way, I hope people will not lump them together with the "bad guys", and view them as the "enemy", as some have suggested here, when they are actually out there looking for and trying to protect you from the real "bad guys" who would not hesitate to cause harm to you or your family.

PrimerDust360
08-07-2012, 11:25 PM
All the more reason to get a "Discreet" bag for your OLLs rather than a "gun shaped" tactical or rifle bag.

This is what I do. I transport my AR in a guitar "gig bag" with the 2 zippers locked together. I have a PT Cruiser that I bought because I have a 120 lb. dog, and the rear seats pop out giving him plenty of room back there. Unfortunately without rear seats there is no easy way for me to cover the cargo area in back. During a traffic stop the officer will be able to see back there and if there is what is obviously a rifle case I'll be asked about it. If there is something that looks like a guitar case the officer probably won't think twice about it.

DogpawSlim
09-28-2012, 5:24 PM
I appreciate that this thread exists, but there is a significant amount of incorrect information in these six pages. Please be aware that there are many exceptions to the warrant requirement in the Fourth Amendment and, thus, many legal methods by which the police can search your person or your vehicle without a warrant. I think the best advice is contained in the first post; be respectful, don't consent to a search (if you don't want to consent to a search), and don't give them a reason to search you in the first place. If you do consent to a search, and change your mind, revoke your consent.

buster1960
09-29-2012, 6:28 AM
I'm a long haul truck driver and have been for 30+ years. Hypothetically lets say I have a handgun safe bolted down in the sleeper area of the truck COMPLETELY out of reach from the drivers seat. I would keep my spare cash and a handgun in there. I am stopped frequently at the scales and on the roadside and inspected. I have never been asked by a LEO if I have any weapons in the truck. If I was asked permission to search the truck, I would polity refuse a search of the drivers or "residence" compartment of the truck for any reason. Being that the gun is in a safe bolted to the truck in the "Residence area" of the truck, how does the law handle this? I realize that different states have different laws and I have to abide by them. There is nothing in the FMCSA (the laws truckers live by) that prohibits carrying a firearm for personal defense. I have asked the FMCSA this question.
I will soon have a Florida nonresident CCl.
If asked by a LEO for permission to search and I polity refuse and then was asked again, I would simply say that I have been on the road for a while and don't want anyone but my wife digging around in my dirty undies and then polity refuse a search again.

Ostrey
09-30-2012, 7:08 PM
I am under the impression that cops do NOT need probable cause to search your car..especially after the patriot act. They can search for any reason they deem necessary. Am I wrong?

Three ways a Police Officer can search your vehicle:

1. With permission

2. Probable Cause ( they see, smell or you admit to illegal substance or items)

3. Pre-inventory search if your car is getting towed due to your arrest :chris:

TheBerryMan
10-06-2012, 8:47 PM
I'm a farmer. And we all carry firearms in our trucks. We've had every animal imaginable sneak into our ranches. including rattlesnakes, coyote, boar, seen bear tracks and lets not forget about the mountain lions that have been known to get close enough our workers see them. I would never take an animal unless necessary, which ive only done a couple times. I went out and bought wild boar tags and got me a couple of them. I scare them off most of the time.

highspeednodrag
10-08-2012, 7:34 AM
So wait a second...reading this thread brings up a question for me...

When I'm pulled over in my honda minivan, wife and kids inside, and upon handing my license and registration to the cop, and he quickly asks if i have any guns in the vehicle (and I do, legally stowed), how do I answer? Do I say "I don't want to answer that question" because he doesn't have PC to ask or pursue a search?

I know it's not something asked at a traffic stop, but if it is....what's safe protocol regardless of what firearm I'm carrying?

Ironchef asked a very good question on 01-02-2008 that has not been answered, at least in this thread.

The question is in the context of a LEO car stop of a person with no wants or warrants - for example a minor mechanical problem like a failed taillight.

I have a 100% purely clean criminal and traffic record and was also asked this once. I had been safely weaving around some deep potholes caused by construction work, was pulled over and immediately the officer asked, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" I had no guns or anything else "of interest" in the car, said so, and he let me go after I explained that I was avoid damaging potholes.

But the question remains, how should that question be answered?
If you have gun(s) in the car and the officer asks if you have them responding with anything other than "yes" would be a lie. Let's say there was no probable cause to search the car or even ask about guns.

If a LEO asks, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" does that require an honest answer?
Is it a question to which a LEO has the right to an honest answer?


What are prudent ways to response to this question?

By the way, I do have an old M1A that has the muzzle flash hidder that makes mine an "assault weapon" and mine is a duly registered assault weapon (RAW). My understanding is that my California driver's license and on-line law enforcement records show that I am a gun owner and that this information pops up on the LEO's in-car computer in a car stoop. That may have been why the LEO asked about guns.

artoaster
10-09-2012, 6:37 AM
That's easy. The answer If a LEO asks, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" is:

No, there is nothing in my car you need to know about.

And, when he frames another question concerning guns you simply ask, "why, am I being detained?"

When he says no that should be the natural end of that conversation because he is just fishing with his questions and doesn't intend to search you anyway.

myk
10-09-2012, 5:58 PM
So...when an LEO pulls up our information, they can see that we're registered gun owners?

TheBerryMan
10-12-2012, 3:37 PM
Yes they know we own firearms. My dad has ben asked before in LA county.

myk
10-13-2012, 12:27 AM
Yes they know we own firearms. My dad has ben asked before in LA county.

So if we're ever in a traffic stop at what point do they know this information? When they run our vehicle plates? Our ID's? Kinda defeats the point of not volunteering information about whether we have firearms in the car or not, right?

Sublime_AC
10-14-2012, 3:02 PM
Never talk to the police.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

lanwarrior
10-14-2012, 4:59 PM
So if we're ever in a traffic stop at what point do they know this information? When they run our vehicle plates? Our ID's? Kinda defeats the point of not volunteering information about whether we have firearms in the car or not, right?

Why do they NEED to ask if we have firearm in the car, even when they KNOW we have a registered firearm? That's the question.

Are they threatened just the fact the laptop n their car state that I have a gun? What if I am a 300 lbs world champion UFC? Are they going to feel threatened too?

TheBerryMan
10-14-2012, 5:48 PM
Idk how they know we are gun owners but they do. my dad was pulled over. cop asked him if he had any guns in the car. he said no. then the cop told him that it came up that he was the owner of SEVERAL firearms.

Galli1565
11-03-2012, 10:53 PM
All I have to say is "totality of the circumstances" 95% of the time I will not ask if there are guns in the car. Unless you have Remington/Winchester/magpul/bcm...etc stickers on your car, are wearing camo, have hunting/shooting gear or seem like someone who would be armed. Even at that if you say, "yes I have_________ guns in my car" I will probably ask two questions. Are they loaded? Are they in a locked container away from the cab?

Ill run you, make sure you aren't a murder suspect, have warrants, are on parole or probation. Then do my paperwork and send you on your way, I might inspect I might not. Just because I can doesn't mean I do 100% of the time. It's not the end of the world, we aren't going to take your guns away and lock you up. Unless you earn it, it's really that simple.

Advice: laminate and carry the AW flow chart with your rifle. I printed them and laminated a bunch of copies for the guys I work with. Stuff like that goes a long way.

A.M.
11-04-2012, 7:57 PM
Can someone explain what an OLL is exactly? I've tried to search but am more confused.....

artoaster
11-06-2012, 6:20 AM
Easy. Off List Lower. Look up California Penal Code 12276.

ursusarticus
11-11-2012, 8:11 PM
I hope to not make this too long so please bare with me. I am a retired cop, and avid gun owner. And as a LE I would like to put in my two cents. I have always been a good guy cop. I liked to treat everyone with respect until they did something that warranted my not doing so. However, with the advent of the “officer safety doctrine” and the Patriot Act, our department policy became a very simple one. Everyone was asked, traffic stop or FI, “do you have any weapons.” If someone responded “yes, they are in the trunk” I generally never asked another question about it, with the exception on the occasional stop where the individual(s) elaborated on what he/she had in the trunk, and we ended up having a nice conversation on the accuracy, and affordability of the weapon(s).

Now before I elaborate on the next paragraph please keep in mind a couple of things. First, I am lot older now, and have a much different attitude, and although it was my job, and stealing a line from “Cool Hand Luke” “calling it your job boss don’t make it right” at the time I was doing what our department dictated, and what I was taught.

I had on one occasion a person say something along the lines of “I have nothing illegal in my vehicle.” I asked him if he was LE or an Attorney, and how he was so certain that he had nothing illegal in his automobile. Again he stated he had nothing illegal in the vehicle. I felt that this was being evasive, and as such gave me reasonable suspicion to search his immediate area within the vehicle. Within the vehicle I found 2 spent 9mm casings. Since we were stopped in an area that had a “history” of violent crime, which one can argue is almost every major city in the US at some place and at some point, I felt I now had probable cause to search the rest of the vehicle.

Long story short, we went to court, the court found I was justified in my reasonable suspicion because “of what could be considered an evasive answer to my questions” and my probable cause search was justified because the “spent shell casings were consistent with type and caliber of known assaults in the area”.

The bottom line is two fold. First, if LE wants to look, they will find a way. It is really not that hard, and especially in the current political and world climate, it is almost too easy I am sorry to say. Second and ultimately the only real thing that matters avoid the problem and have nothing illegal in your vehicle. It is really the only defense you have in the long run.

We can write all day here in this forum about how to avoid problems with the police, be it OLL, concealed carry, or whatever. It really is about the facts. If you are breaking the law, you are getting a ticket, or going to jail. Do the innocent find themselves in bad situations unjustifiably? Yes it happens, and I am hopeful that the legal system, flawed in places it might be, can and will protect them.

Know the laws, obey them, and work to educate those who do not, and maybe we as gun owners can one day no longer be looked upon as potential “bad guys”, especially in a society where it is supposed to be our right to keep and bear them.

This is what our state has come too. To have any reasonable prospect of going to a rifle range to engage in a perfectly (for now) legal activity You are better off having your range buddy who is a member of the Kalifornia state bar next to you in your vehicle as you drive to the range.

Ninety
11-12-2012, 11:33 PM
All I have to say is "totality of the circumstances" 95% of the time I will not ask if there are guns in the car. Unless you have Remington/Winchester/magpul/bcm...etc stickers on your car, are wearing camo, have hunting/shooting gear or seem like someone who would be armed. Even at that if you say, "yes I have_________ guns in my car" I will probably ask two questions. Are they loaded? Are they in a locked container away from the cab?

Ill run you, make sure you aren't a murder suspect, have warrants, are on parole or probation. Then do my paperwork and send you on your way, I might inspect I might not. Just because I can doesn't mean I do 100% of the time. It's not the end of the world, we aren't going to take your guns away and lock you up. Unless you earn it, it's really that simple.

Advice: laminate and carry the AW flow chart with your rifle. I printed them and laminated a bunch of copies for the guys I work with. Stuff like that goes a long way.

What if you are on probation? Informal . Obviously it gives you the right to search and what not, but would it incline you to do so?

Great topic btw thanks to everyone for all the input.

Eric B
11-17-2012, 6:42 PM
I eight years I haven't seen a search and seizure clause with informal probation.

profbri
11-25-2012, 10:58 AM
If you are driving over the speed limit, even if it is with the flow of traffic, and get pulled over, the speeding gives LE PC, doesn't it?

artoaster
11-25-2012, 12:59 PM
If you are driving over the speed limit, even if it is with the flow of traffic, and get pulled over, the speeding gives LE PC, doesn't it?

Probable cause for speeding? Search vehicle, no.

hartins
01-08-2013, 11:53 AM
That's easy. The answer If a LEO asks, "Do you have any guns in the car or anything I should know about?" is:

No, there is nothing in my car you need to know about.

And, when he frames another question concerning guns you simply ask, "why, am I being detained?"

When he says no that should be the natural end of that conversation because he is just fishing with his questions and doesn't intend to search you anyway.

This may be true as far as it goes. You could also just crack open the window and slide out your CDL, Registration and Proof of Insurance, and say absolutely nothing. However, if the reason for the stop progresses beyond the VC violation you may have a problem.

There is no need to offer information that will lead to more questions. But conduct yourself in a polite non challenging manner. Displaying any "attitude", either excessively aggressive or defensive, will only lead to more inquiry.

Of course there is much to be said of knowing that you are in complete compliance in the first place. And if there is a direct question with no wiggle room regarding transporting a firearm, and you have a firearm on board, be truthful and direct. Again, there is no need to offer unsolicited information. But do not lie; that will likely cause you even more grief.