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Itchyfinger79
08-06-2013, 4:00 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new to the site and loving all the information that I'm gathering from here.

I want to buy a reasonable long range rifle with a scope and wanted to see what people recommended. I'm not a experience shooter (not yet), just looking to get into this hobby. Thanks

highpower790
08-06-2013, 4:05 PM
if your close to the sacramento area,check out the sacramento valley shooting center.this coming weekend will be long range matches sat andsun.plenty of helpfull friendly people there to point you in the right direction.

SIKwitIT
08-06-2013, 4:07 PM
Get a .22 and practice. In the mean time keep researching. Soooooo much information out there.

CSACANNONEER
08-06-2013, 4:11 PM
Since you're not an experienced shooter, I strongly suggest getting a good quality .22lr and a scope that costs twice as much as the rifle. This will improve your shooting skills and, if you shoot it out to +100 yards, it'll improve your long range skills as well. BTW, I am a NRA certified rifle instructor who shoots 1000 yard matches with big guns. But, .22lrs are the best training tools you'll ever find.

Maltese Falcon
08-06-2013, 4:13 PM
Big, long thread here with lot's of good info.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=799868

.

tal3nt
08-06-2013, 4:37 PM
ruger american

russ69
08-06-2013, 5:16 PM
A good 22 and a few years of practice and you'll be ready to go. Or you can get a 338 and skip the right to the top of the class.....:devil2:

postal
08-06-2013, 6:16 PM
Standard advice is get a rem 700-in 308. spend as much as you can on good glass. Also have a 22lr.

I went savage years ago. That rifle was about $700.

Just today I ***FINALLY*** got a **GOOD** scope.... Bushnell Elite tactical G2 DMR 3.5-21X. They run about $1,300 ish. Notice the scope is near double the price of the rifle? It's twice as important.

Russ....:rofl2::rofl2:

Dattebayo
08-06-2013, 6:47 PM
Aside from shooting .22lr which is a really great way to learn the fundamentals of shooting, the Remington 700 or a Savage 10 in 308 is fairly standard starting point. There are others like Tikka and Howa, but the Remington and Savage models have the most aftermarket support.

ar15barrels
08-06-2013, 6:50 PM
You will probably get better advice on precision/longrange rifles on the CAPRC.com forums than you will here...

6mmintl
08-06-2013, 7:24 PM
I would recommend you starting out in full distance silhouette rifle shooting shot at 200-500 meters shot off hand or off the bench here in northern California, then you can go to long range matches 600-1000 if in the Sacramento area.


Out to 500 meters a .243/.260.308 hunting rifle weight barrel will give you good feedback and be competitive with minimal work like bedding and trigger work. cost will be lower and you can upgrade the platform later if money is tight.

Beyond 600 you will need a purpose built rifle or one of the factory built target rifles with specialty fast twist long barrel and heavier stocks, .223, .
243 .260 6.5x284, .308, .300 mag calibers etc. . Savage or Remington's.

Try the 22 lr route as suggested above, try smallbore silhouette (40/60/77/100 meters) or maybe some long range prone shooting 100-200 yards if done in your area, Richmond Rod and Gun does a monthly long range match in NorCal.

Yes, there is way too many Ricky recon/double tapping/mall Ninja's on these forums that loiter on the 25/50 yard sniper line with bling carbines.

A few of us do know a bit about custom guns ad competition so filter out information carefully.

Treadstone
08-06-2013, 8:43 PM
So you're not that experienced, ok no prob. Get a .22 rifle (Marlin, Ruger or similar). Buy 1000 rounds of ammo, then attend the next Appleseed clinic in your area.

Don't bother spending $1000+ on a decent long range setup until you know the fundamentals of marksmanship.

And trust me, you will LOVE Appleseed!

Itchyfinger79
08-07-2013, 12:45 PM
Thanks everyone for your advice. I will start off with a 22LR with a really nice scope and see how I do. Thanks again

Merc1138
08-07-2013, 12:54 PM
Wait. Someone is actually taking the advice about starting with .22lr and learning fundamentals to build a solid foundation, without insisting that they want to go straight to a manly .308 tactical sniper rig?
http://cdn.overclock.net/c/c9/c9898916_mother-of-god-super-troopers1.jpeg

FMJBT
08-07-2013, 3:16 PM
You will probably get better advice on precision/longrange rifles on the CAPRC.com forums than you will here...


Damn. And I was just going to suggest a 408 CheyTac. I don't have one myself, but I hear they're "Da Bomb".

skkeeter
08-07-2013, 4:07 PM
Damn. And I was just going to suggest a 408 CheyTac. I don't have one myself, but I hear they're "Da Bomb".

Your way off!! Op, accept nothing less than a .557 T-REX for a beginner's rifle:eek:

janus408
08-07-2013, 5:04 PM
Savage FV-SR .22lr + SWFA SS 10x.

10k rounds.

Time to practice.

Alternatively... 10/22 + tech sights + Appleseed.

killshot44
08-07-2013, 5:07 PM
Is it possible for a "Long Range Rifle" thread to end in less than 50 posts?

If so, it's a first.

Yay

Wnick308
08-07-2013, 6:23 PM
Is it possible for a "Long Range Rifle" thread to end in less than 50 posts?

If so, it's a first.

Yay

No, keep it going!!! POST POST POST


Sent 2700 feet per second.

StraightShooter
08-07-2013, 6:44 PM
I seriously think that starting off with a 22 to learn long range marksmanship is a waste of time and money. Hitting targets out to 600-700 yards with an off the shelf rem 700 and a good scope is easy considering there is no wind. In my experience practicing shooting in the wind with a 22 at shorter ranges doesn't really translate to better wind calls at long range with larger caliber rifles. Also shooting a 22 doesn't really help with fundamentals in the sense that you need to learn to manage recoil and how to position yourself behind the gun to stay on target and provide a solid support for the rifle. 22's don't recoil so they are worthless in that regard. I personally think you will be miles ahead if you just buy a simple rem sps or 5R right off the bat with a decent scope like a bushnell or a vortex PST and some ammo.

Then when you're good with that you can upgrade to a full custom in a performance caliber like .243 Win, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoore, etc.

russ69
08-07-2013, 7:33 PM
I seriously think that starting off with a 22 to learn long range marksmanship is a waste of time and money....

I don't think any prone shooters would agree with this. The 100 yard smallbore prone target has a small 10 ring (the metric target is half that). The 22LR blows around more than a centerfire and it teaches you how still you have to be to get a center hit. It's an excellent way to learn the fundamentals of shooting and reading the wind.

LynnJr
08-07-2013, 8:36 PM
If you want to get into longrange shooting get a Savage in 6BR or 6.5X284 and shoot longrange.
Learning longrange by practicing with a 22 is like learning to drive a D9 Catepillar by practicing with a Tonka Toy.
I would also stay clear of the guys running around in fatigues and jumping through tires.
If you want to shoot longrange take up Palma F-class or Benchrest and leave the gung ho stuff to the Rambo types.

CobraRed
08-07-2013, 9:05 PM
I seriously think that starting off with a 22 to learn long range marksmanship is a waste of time and money. Hitting targets out to 600-700 yards with an off the shelf rem 700 and a good scope is easy considering there is no wind. In my experience practicing shooting in the wind with a 22 at shorter ranges doesn't really translate to better wind calls at long range with larger caliber rifles. Also shooting a 22 doesn't really help with fundamentals in the sense that you need to learn to manage recoil and how to position yourself behind the gun to stay on target and provide a solid support for the rifle. 22's don't recoil so they are worthless in that regard. I personally think you will be miles ahead if you just buy a simple rem sps or 5R right off the bat with a decent scope like a bushnell or a vortex PST and some ammo.

Then when you're good with that you can upgrade to a full custom in a performance caliber like .243 Win, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoore, etc.

My first 3 years and 10's of thousands of rounds as a shooter were almost explicitly .22lr. Bolt action, lever action, iron sights, scopes all prone. I believe it did a tremendous service to my ability to then transition to longer range higher cal and I feel makes me the long range precision shooter I am today.

I wouldn't hold this opinion with much certainty if it wern't for the many new "out of the box" shooters I've tried to coach recently compared to those who have some to much .22lr, shotgun and/or pistol experience. To assume distance shooting is a wind game is to forget yourself as a new shooter.

The fundamentals and mental factor show up in huge differences of capability in new precision shooters. I've seen this in apocalyptic proportions recently shooting next to a buddy of mine teaching his friend who had never shot anything. Spent half a day shooting, closest target we have at my range spot is 550 and the targets aren't huge. Didn't hit a damn thing, all that ammo not one swinging plate. Sink or swim doesn't have a mystical effect in my experience.

Spent the first 20 mins arguing about where the target is (I could see it with no magnification) and how to see through the scope. Compare this to a co-worker of mine who wanted me to teach her son - I thought I do it just for the sake of getting out shooting and not much would come of it. But he owned an AR and a Springfield .45 and used it often. He's the fastest to take up longrange I've ever seen.

I've seen multiple cases just likes these, even at 100 yard ranges.

ar15barrels
08-07-2013, 9:12 PM
I seriously think that starting off with a 22 to learn long range marksmanship is a waste of time and money.

I disagree.
A 22 will teach the basics of marksmanship and save barrel wear, shooter fatigue and significant sums of money.
22 wind calls are similar to what a 308 would be at 4x shorter distance.
Shooting 100yds with a 22 is similar windage to 400yds with a 308.
Shooting 200yds with a 22 is similar windage to 800yds with a 22.

Learning occurs with experience putting rounds on target in all sorts of conditions.
You can easily fire 150-200 rounds of 22 in a single range session and not be fatigued from recoil and muzzle blast.
Most people are worn out shooting a 308 at 50-60 rounds in a range session.
When a shooter masters a 22 at 200yds, they are ready to jump into a centerfire and push the target out to 800yds and beyond.

We all know that there is no skills to be gained by starting shooting a higher performance cartridge such as a 6mm or 6.5mm in the beginning and barrel life is one big reason why 308 is such a good starting cartridge for midrange amd longrange.
The shooter can get a solid 3000 rounds barrel life before a 308 barrel starts to open up.

CK_32
08-07-2013, 11:55 PM
Head over to snipers hide and search around there for a while.


About as good as the LR info and shooters get over there.

luchador768
08-08-2013, 1:10 AM
Maybe look into the .17hrm. I chose that as my first precision rifle. I've been shooting since I was 5 (36 years ago) and found the .17 to be a great way to ease into precision. Ammo is a bit easier to find than .22lr. It shoots very flat too.

LynnJr
08-08-2013, 8:10 AM
The problem with starting with a 22 is he will spend 2 years practicing something he didn't want to do in the first place and use up all his equipment money at the same time.
If he starts off with a Savage 6BR the accuracy will be better than most 308's and the barrel life is just as good or better.The ballistics also match a 300 win mag but with less recoil than a 308.
Unless he is going into a competition that limits him to a 308 there are much better cartridges out there that will aid his shooting rather than hinder his shooting.Most new shooters need more aid and less hindering in my opinion.
Learn the discipline you want to learn and forget about wasting money elsewhere.

To the poster who shot 22's for several years before going to longrange.
If your buddy took a new shooter out and spent a day with him and he couldn't hit a gong at 550 yards he should get a new barrel put on that rifle or change the scope as something is seriously wrong.I can take a kid out to 600 yards who has never fired a gun and in 2 hours the gong will be boring for him/her to hit anymore.

I let a new shooter use my rifle and his first 10 not 5 shot group at 1000 yards was 9 inches and I was disappointed.

I let another guy use my 6BR back-up gun for his first match ever and he placed 7th at a National Championship and only did that bad because he listened to the wrong person while I was in the pits pulling his targets.

JNunez23
08-08-2013, 9:06 AM
I began with a 10/22 with some Nikon glass and really focused on 100-200 yds with that just to get the hang of shooting a rifle without breaking the bank.

I think you're on the right track OP, good luck!

StraightShooter
08-08-2013, 9:22 AM
The problem with starting with a 22 is he will spend 2 years practicing something he didn't want to do in the first place and use up all his equipment money at the same time.
If he starts off with a Savage 6BR the accuracy will be better than most 308's and the barrel life is just as good or better.The ballistics also match a 300 win mag but with less recoil than a 308.
Unless he is going into a competition that limits him to a 308 there are much better cartridges out there that will aid his shooting rather than hinder his shooting.Most new shooters need more aid and less hindering in my opinion.
Learn the discipline you want to learn and forget about wasting money elsewhere.

To the poster who shot 22's for several years before going to longrange.
If your buddy took a new shooter out and spent a day with him and he couldn't hit a gong at 550 yards he should get a new barrel put on that rifle or change the scope as something is seriously wrong.I can take a kid out to 600 yards who has never fired a gun and in 2 hours the gong will be boring for him/her to hit anymore.

I let a new shooter use my rifle and his first 10 not 5 shot group at 1000 yards was 9 inches and I was disappointed.

I let another guy use my 6BR back-up gun for his first match ever and he placed 7th at a National Championship and only did that bad because he listened to the wrong person while I was in the pits pulling his targets.

I agree. Reading mirage at long range is critical to hitting your target. Shooting on the 100 yd range with your 22 won't teach you mirage. You'll be pissed when you have dumped 2500 bucks on a 22 rifle and ammo and spent all that time learning wind just to go to your first LR match and see that the wind flags are going the opposite direction as the mirage and can't figure out how to hit the target.

bubbapug1
08-08-2013, 9:38 AM
The biggest factor at 1000 yards is wind. He can own the best rifle in the world and still not shoot well if he doesn't develop his wind skills.

That's were practice with a 22lr comes in. If he plots out his wind drift for 1, 2, and 3 o'clock wind directions at various wind speeds he can set out flags every 25 yards out to 100 or 200 yards with a 22 and go at it. That's what I have finally figured out I needed to do after trying a 308 and 284 at 1000 yards. Both guns can do the job, but the wind plays a significant role in scoring 10's instead of 8's and 9's.

Op, you can get a great 22lr from CMP for a mere $425 or buy a savage on Calguns for about the same price. Throw a swfa Ss 16x42 scope on it and your gtg for you wind education.

By the book "the wind book for rifle shooters" and you'll be set for developing the skills you need to compete in f class in a few months.

As to caliber, a 7mm 180 grain bullet requires much less windage calls than a 308 175 smk. The 308 is not the way to go for 1000 yards. Go either 6.5 x 284, or some sirt of 7mm variant.

thai562
08-08-2013, 9:53 AM
Save your money and get a good used condition Remington 700 PSS, or 5R in 308 or other 700 with aluminum bedded stock. And a good scope mount and scope.
Don't worry buying high quality used rifle and scope, they are much better than brand new low quality rifle and scope.
And just practice.
The above rifles in 308 can reach out to 800y-1000y, they can grow with you as your skill improve without any additional cost.
Maybe buy better ammo later, or start reloading.

GJC
08-08-2013, 1:20 PM
So you're not that experienced, ok no prob. Get a .22 rifle (Marlin, Ruger or similar). Buy 1000 rounds of ammo, then attend the next Appleseed clinic in your area.

Don't bother spending $1000+ on a decent long range setup until you know the fundamentals of marksmanship.

And trust me, you will LOVE Appleseed!

:iagree:

CSACANNONEER
08-08-2013, 2:40 PM
Thanks everyone for your advice. I will start off with a 22LR with a really nice scope and see how I do. Thanks again

Don't forget to buy quality ammo. With cheaper .22lr ammo, you'll never know if that flyer was you or the ammo. Look for Wolf Match, Eley, SKS, CCI Green Label, etc. CCI mini mags or anything that costs less than that isn't going to give you the precision you'll need to help you learn.

skkeeter
08-08-2013, 3:22 PM
Don't forget to buy quality ammo. With cheaper .22lr ammo, you'll never know if that flyer was you or the ammo. Look for Wolf Match, Eley, SKS, CCI Green Label, etc. CCI mini mags or anything that costs less than that isn't going to give you the precision you'll need to help you learn.

Agree tremendously^^^^
Lapua centerX has worked the best out of all my .22's at distance. The wolf match is great as well, but opens up a bit at over 100y. The Lapua is much more consistent. Green tag used to be my go to distance round but was discontinued.

CobraRed
08-08-2013, 5:52 PM
To the poster who shot 22's for several years before going to longrange.
If your buddy took a new shooter out and spent a day with him and he couldn't hit a gong at 550 yards he should get a new barrel put on that rifle or change the scope as something is seriously wrong.

The barrel and scope in question seems to work just fine for the owner.

Putting an accurate expensive rifle in front of an inexperienced shooter is nothing more than just that - an expensive rifle in the hands of a novice.

Now, you can wax poetic about your own rifle and cartridge selection all you want - that doesn't really address my point.

Saying long range is all about wind reads and scope math isn't far off the mark, I concede that. All I'm saying is it's helpful to learn to shoot before you long range shoot - otherwise there wouldn't be so many people wasting ammo at the 100 yard mark on paper.

Merc1138
08-08-2013, 6:05 PM
Saying long range is all about wind reads and scope math isn't far off the mark, I concede that. All I'm saying is it's helpful to learn to shoot before you long range shoot - otherwise there wouldn't be so many people wasting ammo at the 100 yard mark on paper.

Exactly. There's a reason why fundamentals are called fundamentals. All you have to do is visit any public range and take a look at targets on the 100 yard line. Not everyone is shooting a "precision" rifle, but you see tons of targets that look like they came off of a shotgun patterning board, when the people doing the shooting are resting on sandbags or a bi-pod. I'm also not talking about something silly like "LOL, that guy can't maintain a 4MOA group", I'm talking about not being able to hit a pie plate at 100 yards. It's possible that some of those people have a malfunction, sight/scope mounting issue, but a lot of them simply have zero idea what to do, because no one ever told them(and some people just don't care because they just want to make loud noises, that's fine too as long as they're being safe about it).

Giving those people a nice custom precision rifle with nice optics isn't going to do a damn thing to improve their shooting at 100 or 500 yards. What it will do is make a bigger dent in their wallet unless you're willing to foot the bill while they're learning.

CobraRed
08-08-2013, 6:48 PM
^+1

And saying that "putting a bunch of $ into a .22" is a waste makes me laugh.

1st $2500 on a .22lr rifle and ammo? Great comparison

2nd Who has ever looked back and regretted buying a simple straight shooting .22?

roentgen
08-08-2013, 7:02 PM
Forgive me if I'm off base - I'm not an experienced rifle shooter.

For pistols, it's all about trigger control and sight picture, right? Dry firing so you don't flinch with expected recoil. I would expect the same in regards to fundamentals of rifle shooting too.

Maybe this is the difference between the two camps here; CobraRed is assuming the fundamentals need to be learned and ingrained, StriaghtShooter maybe is assuming the fundamentals of shooting are there, and they need to learn the additional skills of wind etc.

If the OP has no shooting experience, then I would also suggest a 22. With no recoil, firing a 22 should lead to good basic trigger and sight picture skills. Recoil management will come next with the larger calibers. These fundamentals (learned on pistols) transferred pretty well for me to my initial rifle experience, such that the first time on a 200 yard line I was able to hit an 8" target on my second shot, after figuring out my offset.

russ69
08-08-2013, 7:46 PM
Forgive me if I'm off base - I'm not an experienced rifle shooter. For pistols, it's all about trigger control and sight picture, right? Dry firing so you don't flinch with expected recoil. I would expect the same in regards to fundamentals of rifle shooting too...

Things are different for rifle shooting. First you need to build a solid prone position, that can take years to master. Maybe I'm a slow leaner but it took me a long time to develop my final prone position and I was competing a lot at the time. Next you need to develop or find the right load for your gun. Rifle targets are really small and it takes a solid position, a good gun, and the right load to do well in precision rifle shooting. I know of no master or high-master class shooter that has not spent a considerable amount of time shooting smallbore.
Centerfire is built on top of your rimfire experience. You now have to add, reloading and wind into your program and without the foundation of rimfire, you'll have no idea what is happening. Skipping rimfire is the same as jumping into Formula 1 without ever racing karts. I guess it can happen but you'll find very few that excel going on that pathway.

LynnJr
08-08-2013, 9:20 PM
The barrel and scope in question seems to work just fine for the owner.

Yet he couldn't get the student on the gong at a relatively short distance.

Putting an accurate expensive rifle in front of an inexperienced shooter is nothing more than just that - an expensive rifle in the hands of a novice.

Your right all new shooters should start out with cheap inaccurate rifles.Lets see they shoot these cheap inaccurate rifles get frustrated and soon quit altogether.I don't see that as helpful.

Now, you can wax poetic about your own rifle and cartridge selection all you want - that doesn't really address my point.

Well it actually shows the deficeincies in your approach.Doing it the way you suggest the OP after 3 years won't have 2 seconds worth of longrange shooting under his belt but will be shooting the most expensive 22 ammo available.When he gets to the range my shooter will have 3 years worth of longrange wind doping under his belt and will have a good idea of what to do.Your shooter will be firing a centerfire for the first time and learning how to flinch with his new friend recoil while attempting to convert his 22 dopes to his outdated outclassed 308 which already leaves him at a marked disadvantage.

Saying long range is all about wind reads and scope math isn't far off the mark, I concede that. All I'm saying is it's helpful to learn to shoot before you long range shoot - otherwise there wouldn't be so many people wasting ammo at the 100 yard mark on paper.

The reason people tend to shoot at 100 yards is that is whats available to them that they can hit reasonably well.If they had better guns they would graduate on there own to the longer distances.Lots of ranges in California but very few a new shooter can use at 1000 yards on their own.As to the wind reading I know very few shooters who can actually read he wind.

To the guys suggesting the 22 and recommending he buy Lapua ammo Center-X and the like wouldn't he be better off using Eley which completely dominates all the Benchrest and Meters matches?

I couldn't with a clear conscience suggest to anyone that they need a 308 to shoot longrange unless the rules mandate its use.For longrange shooting which to my way of thinking is past 600 yards why would you put yourself at a disadvantage before the first round is fired?

ar15barrels
08-08-2013, 9:37 PM
All I'm saying is it's helpful to learn to shoot before you long range shoot

This is the MOST IMPORTANT concept to take away from this thread.
My recommendation of starting with a 22 is to LEARN TO SHOOT, not to learn to shoot long distance.
If you can't shoot good at short distance, you certainly can't shoot good at long distance...

In the same regard, shooting good at short distance in NO WAY gaurantees you can shoot good at long distance.
Once you figure out how to shoot good at short distance, THEN you can start learning the wind and shooting at long distance.

CobraRed
08-08-2013, 9:37 PM
I didn't say someone should shoot for 3 years explicitly using .22. That's just what I did because I happened to start when I was 13.

You're just making straw men arguments.

Long ranges are rare and usually are far away and/or cost more to shoot at. 6BR, 7mmX, 6.5x284 ammo is expensive. Those rifles can be expensive. The glass needed to shoot long range is expensive.

Now, i don't know what type of "reasonable" budget the OP had in mind, but a shooter shooting often and for cheap will be well on his way to learning the fundamentals (and having fun) before another might even be done putting a match rifle together and aquiring ammo or learning to reload.

CobraRed
08-08-2013, 9:48 PM
Once you figure out how to shoot good at short distance, THEN you can start learning the wind and shooting at long distance.

So you practice fundmentals.... then try more difficult things once you have skills to build on?

This is a crazy new regiment we're wading into, gunna change the shooting scene altogether once people hear about this.

Merc1138
08-08-2013, 9:58 PM
I didn't say someone should shoot for 3 years explicitly using .22. That's just what I did because I happened to start when I was 13.

You're just making straw men arguments.

Long ranges are rare and usually are far away and/or cost more to shoot at. 6BR, 7mmX, 6.5x284 ammo is expensive. Those rifles can be expensive. The glass needed to shoot long range is expensive.

Now, i don't know what type of "reasonable" budget the OP had in mind, but a shooter shooting often and for cheap will be well on his way to learning the fundamentals (and having fun) before another might even be done putting a match rifle together and aquiring ammo or learning to reload.

Just ignore LynnJr. He's so far out of touch with reality I wonder how he understands English. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=799650 Read that if you want to see more of his nonsense.

ar15barrels
08-08-2013, 10:04 PM
So you practice fundmentals.... then try more difficult things once you have skills to build on?

This is a crazy new regiment we're wading into, gunna change the shooting scene altogether once people hear about this.

It's a game changer indeed...

LynnJr
08-09-2013, 8:40 AM
Just ignore LynnJr. He's so far out of touch with reality I wonder how he understands English. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=799650 Read that if you want to see more of his nonsense.

Over 12,000 posts and you haven't learned a thing.

Please realize there are actual real shooters who visit this website once in a while.

6 NORMA BR
Sku:
18671
Caliber:
6 NORMA BR
Handed:
Right
Rate of Twist:
8
Weight:
11 lbs
Overall Length:
46.25"
Barrel Length:
26"
Ammo Capacity:
1
MSRP:
$1395.00

Here is the full retail price on a rifle that will ballistically outperform any 308 at 1000 yards and the ammo cost $39.99 a box.
Yes he can learn with a 22 but that is simply wasting time when he can shoot right now and do what he wants to do not rather than what you want him to do.

Long ranges are rare and usually are far away and/or cost more to shoot at. 6BR, 7mmX, 6.5x284 ammo is expensive. Those rifles can be expensive. The glass needed to shoot long range is expensive.

Do you honestly see the price of these items dropping after he spends the next three years practicing with his 22?

CobraRed
08-09-2013, 12:24 PM
Spend $2600 on a rifle

($1400 rifle, $80 base, $75 rings, $75 bipod and $1000 glass)

Then spend $2 a pop aiming the first shots you've ever fired while using a scope you've had no practice adjusting at targets 600+ yards away.

Solid advice.

Altahick
08-09-2013, 12:40 PM
just get a savage .243. cheap enough to practice with, shoot 100 yds or so to learn, then when you starting long range the rifle is more than capable. when the time comes (if the time comes) that you are outperforming the rifle you can have it rebarreled pretty cheap, change stock,, trigger etc. of course the remington 700, ruger american etc etc are good choices, but i am a big savage fan. it would be a good idea to start with a .22 but you can learn on a centerfire rifle just costs more

Merc1138
08-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Over 12,000 posts and you haven't learned a thing.

Please realize there are actual real shooters who visit this website once in a while.

6 NORMA BR
Sku:
18671
Caliber:
6 NORMA BR
Handed:
Right
Rate of Twist:
8
Weight:
11 lbs
Overall Length:
46.25"
Barrel Length:
26"
Ammo Capacity:
1
MSRP:
$1395.00

Here is the full retail price on a rifle that will ballistically outperform any 308 at 1000 yards and the ammo cost $39.99 a box.
Yes he can learn with a 22 but that is simply wasting time when he can shoot right now and do what he wants to do not rather than what you want him to do.

Uhhh... I think your example rifle is missing something there.

1. $1400 rifle
2. ??????
3. $2/rd ammo

Did you even read the OP?

BTW yes I know real shooters visit this website. Did you type that to remind yourself of this?(you can claim to be the most "real shooter" all you want, but you're still just delusional)

LynnJr
08-09-2013, 1:46 PM
Spend $2600 on a rifle

($1400 rifle, $80 base, $75 rings, $75 bipod and $1000 glass)

Then spend $2 a pop aiming the first shots you've ever fired while using a scope you've had no practice adjusting at targets 600+ yards away.

Solid advice.

Speaking of straw men you are kidding right?Seriously You have to be kidding?

You want him to buy a 22 rifle ammo a scope scope bases and rings then once he learns the fundamentals he buys the rifle I recommend so double your $2600 and you want him to spend $5200.You must be kidding right?Do it all twice
Now that is Sound Advice.

Also who said he starts shooting at 600 yards? Couldn't he shoot a box or two through it at 100 first? Then move out to 600 like most people do?
Your advice doubles his costs and takes him away from what he wants to do.


Merc1138

I can see You have difficulty in following what is being said just like your earlier rant on the headspace thread.

If you read that original thread You will see were a poster said an action wouldn't close on his go gauge.A few posts later the same poster said the ammo fit the chamber and the action would loosen up after some shooting so all would work okay.Remember he said it wouldn't close on the go gauge.I notice you didn't say that he was delusional did I miss that? He did say it wouldn't close didn't he?

You simply don't understand headspace and that is obvious so why not start a new thread and ask about it?

I will give you some help but if the reading becomes difficult don't panic just ask for an explanation.

If I drop two barrels off at Gary O'cocks shop or Lester Bruno's shop they will chamber them up in 6ppc for me.They are both gunsmiths and are both in the Benchrest Hall Of Fame.
When the barrels show up chances are that the headspace won't be the same.This does not matter to a real shooter as they will adjust there reloading dies to make up for the variation.
I know you don't understand any of that but it is true.
Now go start a new thread titled "Headspace"and ask why and you can cut copy and paste what I wrote so you ask it right.

FMJBT
08-09-2013, 2:02 PM
So you practice fundmentals.... then try more difficult things once you have skills to build on?

This is a crazy new regiment we're wading into, gunna change the shooting scene altogether once people hear about this.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71oVzhntOzL._SX342_.jpg

Merc1138
08-09-2013, 2:08 PM
Speaking of straw men you are kidding right?Seriously You have to be kidding?

You want him to buy a 22 rifle ammo a scope scope bases and rings then once he learns the fundamentals he buys the rifle I recommend so double your $2600 and you want him to spend $5200.You must be kidding right?.

No one ever told him to spend $2600 on a .22lr rifle. You definitely are delusional.

CobraRed
08-09-2013, 2:17 PM
Speaking of straw men you are kidding right?Seriously You have to be kidding?

You want him to buy a 22 rifle ammo a scope scope bases and rings then once he learns the fundamentals he buys the rifle I recommend so double your $2600 and you want him to spend $5200.You must be kidding right?Do it all twice
Now that is Sound Advice.

Also who said he starts shooting at 600 yards? Couldn't he shoot a box or two through it at 100 first? Then move out to 600 like most people do?
Your advice doubles his costs and takes him away from what he wants to do.

Im not the one saying spend $2500 on the first thing he ever shoots, you are.
I'm not the one saying a new shooter should be able to shoot 600+, you are.

I actually outlined the cost of the route you suggested, you're just wildly throwing around numbers to support your argument

i.e. Strawman

russ69
08-09-2013, 2:27 PM
No one ever told him to spend $2600 on a .22lr rifle. You definitely are delusional.

That would be my recommendation. You just can't have too good of a 22LR Rifle (or too many). Nothing will teach you the fundamentals better than a top Olymipic level gun. Like this: http://www.champchoice.com/prod-1913_IN_1918_ALUM_STOCK_PRECISE__LG_GRIP___RIGHT_-3664.aspx

Grated everyone I know started with galley rifle shooting back in the day.

CobraRed
08-09-2013, 2:30 PM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71oVzhntOzL._SX342_.jpg

Oh cool, we're doing pictures now


http://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/18173/1817370043b5a93c903df30ed72c0f5edc616690.jpg

That would be my recommendation. You just can't have too good of a 22LR Rifle (or too many). Nothing will teach you the fundamentals better than a top Olymipic level gun. Like this: http://www.champchoice.com/prod-1913_IN_1918_ALUM_STOCK_PRECISE__LG_GRIP___RIGHT_-3664.aspx

Grated everyone I know started with galley rifle shooting back in the day.
Haha, if the OP's budget is $3,300 w/out optics then I just might concede the point of getting a 6-7mm rifle from the get go. Yet, still doing days worth of shooting at the 100 yard line first (assuming again $ isn't an issue).

But really, who has regretted buying thier .22 rifle?

Merc1138
08-09-2013, 2:55 PM
But really, who has regretted buying thier .22 rifle?

The oddball forum user here and there that complains about .22 being a sissy round.

The $3300 anschutz... lol. I was thinking more along the lines of a $400-$600 rifle, Kimber/CZ/Savage/etc.

Stockton
08-09-2013, 3:04 PM
Sight picture. Breathing. Cheek weld. Trigger squeeze. Dime or washer. BB gun back yard. Less than 100$ to learn. 10/22 269$ to learn. Cheap BSA 60$.

CSACANNONEER
08-09-2013, 3:48 PM
I know a few people who have started their shooter careers by buying 50cal BR rifles. One, in particular can shoot very well and is a well respected 50 shooter and, now a highly regarded developer/vendor of the "Eng rest". Another one shot a 150 15x during one day of a 2 day match. That's a perfect score. But, those are the exceptions. Spending $2000 of a .22lr will more than pay for itself in the saving from ammo, travelling to 1000 yard ranges, etc. So, yea, spending $3000 on a quality .22lr that won't depreciate and then spending another $5000 on a centerfire set up would end up SAVING the OP thousands of dollars in the long run.Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Altahick
08-09-2013, 3:56 PM
No one ever told him to spend $2600 on a .22lr rifle. You definitely are delusional.

he is

LynnJr
08-09-2013, 4:06 PM
Im not the one saying spend $2500 on the first thing he ever shoots, you are.
I'm not the one saying a new shooter should be able to shoot 600+, you are.

I actually outlined the cost of the route you suggested, you're just wildly throwing around numbers to support your argument

i.e. Strawman

Well post what the costs for the 22 with base rings and scope are now and what the cost and the build would be on your recommended rifle for 3 years down the road.Also post what the scope base and rings will cost in 3 years.

This is were you will now say buy a $50 rifle and a $20 scope to learn on and in 3 years everything will be cheaper for longrange right?

I fully understand you honestly believe that everybody needs to sweep the shop floor before they can move up the ladder and make pizza sauce but in reality this is not true.Some shooters will never get it no matter how much 22 shooting they do while others will take to it like a duck to water.
Your outline of my costs is spot on s a factory Remington plinker costs about $400 less.
Tell us what rifle he should get in 3 years as you have really peaked my interest.
And here is an Official group such at a registered match at 600 yards with quite a few more holes in it.

Merc1138
08-09-2013, 4:11 PM
Well post what the costs for the 22 with base rings and scope are now and what the cost and the build would be on your recommended rifle for 3 years down the road.Also post what the scope base and rings will cost in 3 years.

This is were you will now say buy a $50 rifle and a $20 scope to learn on and in 3 years everything will be cheaper for longrange right?

I fully understand you honestly believe that everybody needs to sweep the shop floor before they can move up the ladder and make pizza sauce but in reality this is not true.Some shooters will never get it no matter how much 22 shooting they do while others will take to it like a duck to water.
Your outline of my costs is spot on s a factory Remington plinker costs about $400 less.
Tell us what rifle he should get in 3 years as you have really peaked my interest.
And here is an Official group such at a registered match at 600 yards with quite a few more holes in it.

The only one coming up with "3 years" seems to be you. Now you're going in the opposite direction with your hyperbole about $50 rifles and $20 scopes. We get it, you don't like .22lr. We don't care why you don't like .22lr. Just stop posting lies and nonsense already.

osis32
08-09-2013, 4:15 PM
Lynn you're dealing only on the extreme spectrum which most people do not fit into. There are way more average shooters than naturals or hopeless combined. I don't know many people that learned how to run before they could walk or any instructor that has advised that method for learning.

FMJBT
08-09-2013, 7:34 PM
A simple, accurate rifle like the Savage Mk II varmint would be my suggestion for a first rifle to learn on. For optics, again simplicity and affordability are deciding factors here. Go with something proven and cheap like the Bushnell 10X40 mil dot. You'll get a rock solid scope that allows you to learn all the tricks of rangefinding and holds using mils, or dialing in corrections with the matching mil turrets. Total cost of the rifle, optics, base and rings would be around $550.00.

The 22 doesn't have to merely be a stepping stone to get to a larger rifle either. It can be a valuable training tool to augment your heavier caliber rifles. Even with a variety of larger caliber rifles at my disposal, I still use the Savage Mk II on a regular basis. It's a great way to keep your skills reasonably fresh without having to lug a bunch of equipment out to the desert. I can go to the local range and shoot out to 100, 200 or 300 yards all day, and not feel like a burnt chakboard eraser from laying out in the desert sun and having dirt blasted into my face for several hours. Don't get me wrong, nothing compares to hearing the delayed "Ping!" of ringing steel at a distance, and the sunburn is a small price to pay for getting to do that. Sometimes though, it is nice to dial it back a bit and plink at paper or cans with a 22 at reduced ranges.

Grimey
08-09-2013, 8:07 PM
Why not a Savage 12LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor ?

magnusson
08-09-2013, 8:28 PM
Long range is for pillow biters who like the prone position, real men bump fire their AKs with a 12 pack of Bud in the woods.

LynnJr
08-09-2013, 9:35 PM
The only one coming up with "3 years" seems to be you. Now you're going in the opposite direction with your hyperbole about $50 rifles and $20 scopes. We get it, you don't like .22lr. We don't care why you don't like .22lr. Just stop posting lies and nonsense already.

CSACANNONEER
So, yea, spending $3000 on a quality .22lr that won't depreciate and then spending another $5000 on a centerfire set up would end up SAVING the OP thousands of dollars in the long run.Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

russ69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
No one ever told him to spend $2600 on a .22lr rifle. You definitely are delusional.
That would be my recommendation. You just can't have too good of a 22LR Rifle (or too many). Nothing will teach you the fundamentals better than a top Olymipic level gun.


Merc1138
I think your reading skills could use a little bit of polishing.
I would never tell someone interested in Longrange shooting to buy a 22.I wouldn't tell someone interested in Formula 1 to buy a 3 speed Schwinn bicycle either.
You didn't put up a post about the headspace you know nothing about but now your handing out more bad advice on a sport you know nothing about.I just finished posting on the Calfee website and come here to find out from you of all people that I don't like 22's.You simply can't make this stuff up.

To the OP if you live in northern California you are cordially invited to shoot longrange using my guns and my ammo for free.We will shoot at 600 yards and post your targets here.You won't need any 22 ammo or camo and we won't check the headspace on my rifles.
If you live in southern California and are free on September 22nd I will be at the Ojai 600 yard match if I get my A zone deer before that.I will pay your entrance fees and you can shoot two of my guns free of charge with free ammo with 10 minutes worth of my instructions and we will post the targets here for all to see how you did.

If you never hit the target as was mentioned earlier I will give you a brick of good 22 ammo.

Steve_In_29
08-09-2013, 10:00 PM
Any body that thinks a NEW shooter should skip learning the fundamentals on something like a .22 and instead jump right into a 1000yd setup is an idiot.

This is akin to what I have seen in the 4x4 world, where someone that has never wheeled in their life but has a good paying job decides to start. They proceed to buy a new Jeep (or other vehicle) and head down to 4WheelParts with their credit card. After laying out close to $40K (vehicle and mods) they drive to the trail and proceed to destroy their new toy (and in some cases hurt themselves) through having no idea what they are supposed to do once the tires get off pavement.

A quality bolt gun in .22 from Savage or CZ along with a decent scope can be had for less then $1K. Buy some match .22 ammo and go for it. Once the shooter can reliably make single hole groups at 100yds he is ready to step up to larger calibers and longer distances.

Unless the OP has more money then he knows what to do with and an iron shoulder, there is no way he is going to be able to afford/withstand the amount of rounds he will have to put down range to MASTER the basics with a centerfire 1000yd round.

A .22 will allow him to INEXPENSIVELY shoot the THOUSANDS of practice rounds required to develop the requisite muscle memory needed for repeatable groups.

Merc1138
08-09-2013, 10:14 PM
Now he's rambling about F1 and 3 speed bicycles. Wow.

Altahick
08-09-2013, 10:20 PM
Any body that thinks a NEW shooter should skip learning the fundamentals on something like a .22 and instead jump right into a 1000yd setup is an idiot.

This is akin to what I have seen in the 4x4 world, where someone that has never wheeled in their life but has a good paying job decides to start. They proceed to buy a new Jeep (or other vehicle) and head down to 4WheelParts with their credit card. After laying out close to $40K (vehicle and mods) they drive to the trail and proceed to destroy their new toy (and in some cases hurt themselves) through having no idea what they are supposed to do once the tires get off pavement.

A quality bolt gun in .22 from Savage or CZ along with a decent scope can be had for less then $1K. Buy some match .22 ammo and go for it. Once the shooter can reliably make single hole groups at 100yds he is ready to step up to larger calibers and longer distances.

Unless the OP has more money then he knows what to do with and an iron shoulder, there is no way he is going to be able to afford/withstand the amount of rounds he will have to put down range to MASTER the basics with a centerfire 1000yd round.

A .22 will allow him to INEXPENSIVELY shoot the THOUSANDS of practice rounds required to develop the requisite muscle memory needed for repeatable groups.


this is good advice. i see two logical options to begin in long range shooting. a nice bolt action .22 cheap, and great to learn the fundamentals. or a savage, remington, ruger etc .223, .243 etc. with a bolt action .223 or .243 you can still learn fundamentals somewhat cheap(ish) and still get 200,300 yd and so on practice.

russ69
08-09-2013, 10:27 PM
...The $3300 anschutz... lol. I was thinking more along the lines of a $400-$600 rifle, Kimber/CZ/Savage/etc.
Don't think small. Why limit yourself?

... BB gun back yard. Less than 100$ to learn. 10/22 269$ to learn. Cheap BSA 60$.
My backyard "BB" guns are also Olympic quality. They are almost as expensive as good 22 rifles and by that I mean expensive German rifles.

...The 22 doesn't have to merely be a stepping stone to get to a larger rifle either. It can be a valuable training tool to augment your heavier caliber rifles....
I didn't get serious about smallbore shooting until I wanted to improve my highpower scores. It stepped up my highpower shooting a ton.

Merc1138
08-09-2013, 10:51 PM
Don't think small. Why limit yourself?


My backyard "BB" guns are also Olympic quality. They are almost as expensive as good 22 rifles and by that I mean expensive German rifles.


I didn't get serious about smallbore shooting until I wanted to improve my highpower scores. It stepped up my highpower shooting a ton.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not disagreeing with the comment about the anschutz being worthwhile, I just don't think it's particularly necessary. If the OP wants to spend that much, sure why not.

RobGR
08-09-2013, 11:04 PM
OP, don't go .22lr, go .17 hmr :43:

Definitely take an Appleseed class as well.

Cypriss32
08-09-2013, 11:11 PM
Hmm buy this, buy that.... I'm so confused.

russ69
08-09-2013, 11:27 PM
Don't get me wrong. I'm not disagreeing with the comment about the anschutz being worthwhile, I just don't think it's particularly necessary. If the OP wants to spend that much, sure why not.

I hear you. An Anschutz target rifle is a major expense. You have to be really serious to lay out that kind of bread.

ar15barrels
08-10-2013, 12:04 AM
Well post what the costs for the 22 with base rings and scope.

$500 Savage mark 2tr
$300 Nikon buckmaster 4.5-15x40 with mildot reticle amd side focus
$40 egw picatinny rail
$60 TPS 1" medium rings
$85 Harris S-BRM bipod
$15 pod-loc
$60 sling
$600 case of wolf match target ammo (5000 rounds)
~$100 Appleseed weekend of instruction on fundamentals.
That should keep a new precision rifle shooter busy for a solid year of quality shooting.

Clever
08-10-2013, 1:15 AM
RUGER 22LR SEMI, TAUGHT ME THE TRUE BASICS OF SHOOTING..THAT WAS 30 YEARS AGO AND I STILL USE THE SAME BASICS.. ITS TRUE WALK BEFORE YOU RUN.

milotrain
08-10-2013, 10:29 AM
Nearly everyone I know who really shoots well still spends time with their .22LRs to keep them honest. These are Master and High Master highpower shooters who are always checking themselves with a .22 benchmark.

A good friend who shoots smallbore almost exclusively now started in highpower and long range. Won a number of competitions with a .308 at 1k even though there were ballistically better rounds on the line, and now routinely cleans the metric prone target.

If you can shoot a .22 well then you can shoot long range well. You still need to learn wind and ranging but you can begin with wind by shooting the .22 at 200 yards and ranging is just time spent on the glass.

Altahick
08-10-2013, 1:12 PM
Hmm buy this, buy that.... I'm so confused.

what is your budget? what is your level of experience?

milotrain
08-10-2013, 3:11 PM
I will go out on a limb now and say his 4th target will be smaller than 90% of those posting on this thread have/will Ever shoot at the same distance.


I'll take that bet. 30 or so people in this thread and I'd make the educated guess that the following will outshoot him.

Russ69
Randall
highpower790
Steve-in-29
Killshot44
cobrared
humbly, me.

Another thing that has not been discussed is that the 6BR is not a trivial round to run load dev on. I wouldn't recommend a new shooter start with a round that they HAVE to reload and is finicky about it's reloads. In this case .308 or .30-06 would shine, but even better is .22lr. When a new driver wants to get into racing most people recomend that they take whatever car they have and start small by autocrossing. You don't start someone by telling them to race spec miata and "oh by the way, you should learn how to weld and build a roll cage too." Success is found by reducing variables.

janus408
08-10-2013, 4:07 PM
This thread is way too long, with too much bickering.

There is a reason so many experienced shooters (I am not one of them) are recommending .22lr. There is a reason so many experienced shooters on SH build .22lr trainers.

Really, if you are into long range/precision shooter, there is no reason not to own a .22lr. For the price of a decent scope on a .308 or larger rifle, you can build a full .22lr setup + ammo. So why not start there.

/endthread

Steve_In_29
08-10-2013, 6:59 PM
Steve-in-29
So he can't shoot a 6BR at shorter distances if he wants to? Why not?
Please tell us how much it will cost the OP to shoot 10,000 rounds of 6BR as opposed to the same amount of match .22 ammo. It's simple economics for anyone that isn't independently wealthy.

Plus now he needs to master the not inconsequential art of reloading the 6BR before he is even able to hit the range for practice. You don't want the OP to "waste his time and money" on a .22 setup but you want him to spend more then the .22 would cost (for the reloading gear) before he even knows if he has the requisite skills and dedication to compete in the long range world.

Please copy the part of my post were I said for him to skip the fundamentals.Your entitled to your own opinion just not your own facts...
You can do your own cut and paste to answer your question.

The "fact" is my post only stated "anyone" (note the none specificness) that thinks a NEW SHOOTER should try to master the basics of marksmanship and build (through tens of thousands of repetitions) the requisite shooting skills with a high-power and costly cartridge instead of with a .22 is an "idiot".

It's interesting that since my post makes no mention of "skipping the fundamentals" at all and if as you claim, you never said (or implied) "skip the fundamentals" that you still felt the need to identify yourself with the heretofore unnamed "idiot" in my post.

It appears your reading comprehension is as lacking as your shooting advice.

LynnJr
08-10-2013, 7:15 PM
Why would he need to reload for the 6BR?
This is were you guy lose me.You make stuff up because you simply don't know the answers.Why don't you know the answers because you don't ask questions of those that do know.You would rather argue than learn something.
Why reload when new factory ammo runs $39.99 a box.As you don't even know that why would anyone trust your advice?
I like shooters with tenacity but when I read this I realise something is amiss.

Plus now he needs to master the not inconsequential art of reloading the 6BR before he is even able to hit the range for practice. You don't want the OP to "waste his time and money" on a .22 setup but you want him to spend more then the .22 would cost (for the reloading gear) before he even knows if he has the requisite skills and dedication to compete in the long range world.

CSACANNONEER
08-10-2013, 10:02 PM
Steve-in-29
AR15Barrels
So he spends $2000 playing with a 22 for a year if I tallied your post right. Merc1138 by the way thinks $2000 is absolutely nuts.
So he is now out $2000 and still needs a rifle and ammo for longrange which is why he started this thread in the first place.I went cheap with a Savage and was told that spending that much on a longrange rifle is delusional so maybe just maybe these posters have either never shot longrange or they got moms password and are in big trouble when she finds out.

I have offered him two opportunities to shoot world class rifles at 600 yards with myself as the coach free of any charge.I would also like to post his targets for everyone here to view and I don't think he will be embarrassed at all with the results.
I will go out on a limb now and say his 4th target will be smaller than 90% of those posting on this thread have/will Ever shoot at the same distance.

First, How would he "be out" $2000 after shooting 5000 rounds? The way I see it is that after 5000 rounds of solid training with Randall's proposed set up, he would be ahead at least $3000 based on $1 per round of half azz decent not quite match quality centerfire ammo. Of course, that doesn't even account for the fact that he will still have $1400 worth of his original investment. So, after a solid year of shooting, he would have a years worth of experience, a nice .22lr set up and $3000 in savings to invest in a centerfire outfit. He'll also have a much better idea of exactly what he needs for his specific anticipated application. Yep, after a year, he'll have saved enough money on ammo to almost buy a basic centerfire set up for not much more than the amount his $2000 investment has saved him and, he'll get the added bonus of having a nice rimfire rifle for free.


As far as the 90% thing goes, the last record group I shot at a 1000 yard match was 4 7/8". But, after just two matches with my rifle, a friend of mine, who had never shoot 1000 yards before this June, was able to shot a 4 1/2" group at the FCSA World Championships this July. So, while I coached him a bit and he's produced a smaller group than I have, he has a long history of competitive rimfire shooting. Was it the coaching or his mastering the fundamentals with rimfires? BTW, the first record group he ever shot at 1000 was sub 7". Was that beginners luck, skill or great coaching? Since I was his coach, I'll be the first to rule that out. I've got to go with his ability to shoot long range is directly related to his previous experience shooting rimfires.

janus408
08-11-2013, 4:12 AM
I've got to go with his ability to shoot long range is directly related to his previous experience shooting rimfires.

Another great place to end this thread. What you learn on the .22lr transfers over to larger calibers and longer distances. So to save yourself money, or to take advantage of local ranges that many have a max distance of 300yards, go for a .22lr.

Steve_In_29
08-11-2013, 10:47 AM
Why would he need to reload for the 6BR?
This is were you guy lose me.You make stuff up because you simply don't know the answers.Why don't you know the answers because you don't ask questions of those that do know.You would rather argue than learn something.
Why reload when new factory ammo runs $39.99 a box.As you don't even know that why would anyone trust your advice?
I like shooters with tenacity but when I read this I realise something is amiss.
Excuse me for thinking that someone going to the not inconsiderable expense of a full blown 1000yd setup would want to handload his ammo to wring every iota of accuracy he could from it.

You notably didn't answer my question as to cost but I will do the math for the OP based on your provided info.

6BR: 10,000rds divided by a 20rd box = 500 boxes x $39.99 = $19,995.00
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)

So it would cost the OP roughly $18,000.00 to avoid "wasting his money" on a .22 setup (rifle/scope/ammo).
If ever the words "EPIC FAIL" applied, this is it.

LynnJr
08-11-2013, 1:25 PM
You notably didn't answer my question as to cost but I will do the math for the OP based on your provided info.

6BR: 10,000rds divided by a 20rd box = 500 boxes x $39.99 = $19,995.00
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)

So it would cost the OP roughly $18,000.00 to avoid "wasting his money" on a .22 setup (rifle/scope/ammo).
If ever the words "EPIC FAIL" applied, this is it.

Ooops did I forgot to answer a question? As you don't know anything about the 6BR which is extremely popular in longrange shooting I figured why waste the bandwith.
His 22 ammo will run him Eley Match .22lr Ammunition Box of 50
Starting at: $13.70 $2750 for decent stuff not the best stuff.I know you wanted him to shoot junk ammo in the 22 so you can try and make a point but lets atleast be realistic.

You also failed to mention how many new barrels he would have to put on his 6BR gun to shoot 500 boxes of ammo but maybe 500 boxes is normal wear and tear on YOUR centerfire barrels?
Can you tell me how many boxes of centerfire ammo you shot in 2012?
Can you give us a percentage of guys shooting longrange that shoot 500 boxes of ammo per year?
Is it 80% or higher?


CSAcannoneer
If I take this guy out to the range what size 5 shot groups would he be shooting without his 22 fundamental training on his very first day? I want to gauge how much larger his groups are going to be with no experience versus spending $2750 on rimfire ammo and $2600 on the rifle or $5350.

Earlier in this thread someone accused myself of not liking 22's so I am including a picture here.I don't know anything about the picture or what it is of or about so maybe that poster can help me out here? Is it even firearms related?

Merc1138
08-11-2013, 2:42 PM
You notably didn't answer my question as to cost but I will do the math for the OP based on your provided info.

6BR: 10,000rds divided by a 20rd box = 500 boxes x $39.99 = $19,995.00
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)

So it would cost the OP roughly $18,000.00 to avoid "wasting his money" on a .22 setup (rifle/scope/ammo).
If ever the words "EPIC FAIL" applied, this is it.

Ooops did I forgot to answer a question? As you don't know anything about the 6BR which is extremely popular in longrange shooting I figured why waste the bandwith.
His 22 ammo will run him Eley Match .22lr Ammunition Box of 50
Starting at: $13.70 $2750 for decent stuff not the best stuff.I know you wanted him to shoot junk ammo in the 22 so you can try and make a point but lets atleast be realistic.

You also failed to mention how many new barrels he would have to put on his 6BR gun to shoot 500 boxes of ammo but maybe 500 boxes is normal wear and tear on YOUR centerfire barrels?
Can you tell me how many boxes of centerfire ammo you shot in 2012?
Can you give us a percentage of guys shooting longrange that shoot 500 boxes of ammo per year?
Is it 80% or higher?


CSAcannoneer
If I take this guy out to the range what size 5 shot groups would he be shooting without his 22 fundamental training on his very first day? I want to gauge how much larger his groups are going to be with no experience versus spending $2750 on rimfire ammo and $2600 on the rifle or $5350.

Earlier in this thread someone accused myself of not liking 22's so I am including a picture here.I don't know anything about the picture or what it is of or about so maybe that poster can help me out here? Is it even firearms related?

If you're trying to make some mockery of people, you're not very good at it(it'd be nice if you could also learn how to use the quote function). Yes, I'm aware of who Bill Calfee is, you're not him. How you got that embroidery or what it's supposed to mean is pretty irrelevant, so if you're hoping for it to bring you some "cred", nope.

The fact is that your advice is generally terrible, your attitude sucks, you're bad at math, you can't even propose a budget to someone for a rifle and include the scope, and now you want to have some superiority complex over Eley match as if Wolf MT is the equivalent of Blazer bulk. You may be a great shooter, but I doubt many people will give a crap considering your attitude. If there was such a way for someone to be so over the top to the point of being a blight on the shooting community in general... you've managed to pull it off.

CSACANNONEER
08-11-2013, 3:21 PM
LynnJr,

I don't think anyone here has questioned your shooting ability. But, many here are questioning your method of training new shooters. The simple facts are that a new shooter will spend less money and have the access to get quality trigger time at many more ranges throughout the country if he/she has a rimfire rig to learn on. For me, the nearest 1000 yard range which I have good access to is about 3 hours away. I can shoot 600 yards at several places within an hour of me but, I can shoot 100-200 yards at those ranges plus many more which are closer to me including my front yard. You've got to admit that good trigger time with a rimfire is a lot better than not having the ability to drive hours to a range so you don't get any trigger time. Right? It's obviously easier and cheaper for a new shooter to learn the fundamentals without having to make a six hour trip to a 1000 yard range. Quality practice with a rimfire is 1000X better than zero practice without one. That said, I will strongly encourage the OP to take you up on your offer to give him some experience and one on one coaching. That alone should save him a year or two's worth of trying to learn on his own like I had to. Lucky for me that I have been able to glean tidbits here and there from the likes of Lynn McMurdo, Skip Talbot, Randy Dierks, Paula Dirks, Lee Rasmusen, Sheri, Rasmusen, Mark Avakian, Brett Berger, Buddy Clifton and many others over the years but, no one ever gave me the generous opportunity that you're offering the OP.

toby
08-11-2013, 3:30 PM
Oh! another my dick is bigger than your dick thread...:kest:

fonzy
08-11-2013, 6:45 PM
^You called? ^

highpower790
08-11-2013, 6:52 PM
Quite the pissing match!

LynnJr
08-11-2013, 7:55 PM
If you're trying to make some mockery of people, you're not very good at it(it'd be nice if you could also learn how to use the quote function). Yes, I'm aware of who Bill Calfee is, you're not him. How you got that embroidery or what it's supposed to mean is pretty irrelevant, so if you're hoping for it to bring you some "cred", nope.

I am not trying to make a mockery of anybody but some of the posts here are doing a pretty good job of it all on there own.A mirror is sometimes a handy instrument to have.The name Bill Calfee rings a bell with me because he is the best 22 gunsmith currently doing work on this planet and I would never say I am him but I might be his "Waterboy".The shirts were presents from "Big Dog" and if you know of Bill Calfee the names should not surprise you or anyone else familiar with his work.I used quotation marks so I solved another of your issues.


The fact is that your advice is generally terrible, your attitude sucks, you're bad at math, you can't even propose a budget to someone for a rifle and include the scope, and now you want to have some superiority complex over Eley match as if Wolf MT is the equivalent of Blazer bulk. You may be a great shooter, but I doubt many people will give a crap considering your attitude. If there was such a way for someone to be so over the top to the point of being a blight on the shooting community in general... you've managed to pull it off.

My advice comes from many years of experience in many longrange disciplines and it was to buy a Savage in 6BR and shoot factory ammo at 600 yards and further.I gave the price of the rifle and the ammo earlier but you might have missed that? I didn't see anyone offering much scope advice just a ballpark price of what a scope might cost.I guess I missed your post on scope choices so please link it here.I was actually a math major but tend to round things off if I find they are to be used as generalities rather than graded.
My opinion on scopes for those viewing is to get what your eyes prefer and not what someone else suggests on a message board.I have several Nightforce 12-42's but my father whom I shoot with prefers the 8-32.I don't like the 8-32 so I get what my eyes prefer.Shooters also tend to promote what they have and not necessarily what is best.
I am not a great shooter just someone who has always liked shooting and once in a while I get lucky.I don't understand your comment on my attitude as I believe YOU were the one to use derogatory language in this post and also the earlier post you linked.Delusional ring a bell?
As to being a blight on the shooting community I actually know several shooters a vice president of a shooting organization a match director
and his coharts that fit that bill much better than myself and I see some of them post here


CSACANNONEER
I gave the OP my honest opinion as someone who seriously tries to promote longrange shooting.I enjoy shooting longrange and have mentored as many new shooters as anyone I know in the various disciplines I like to shoot.
If you have someone interested in longrange shooting such as the original poster I will loan them my guns and ammo free of obligation and let them see if this is what they really want to do before they go wasting copious amounts of money.I call it being prudent while at the same time letting them see what it takes to be competitive.As not all longrange is competitive I also have a somewhat large collection of rifles that can be used for varmints,hunting big game or blasting targets on public lands all at extreme distances and mainly just for fun.
I find most of the comments here geared towards tactical competition and I would not limit anyone to a single discipline without going over the various requirements of such.
If you noticed I am the only poster offering the OP a chance to use top of the line gear without obligation and to offer him/her some guidance as well.I am confident that I can get a new shooter on target at 600 yards and that there targets will be respectable.This is not bragging this is experience and knowing ones equipment.
I hope this helps explain why I would spend so much time on what most would consider a trivial topic at best?
I see from your posts you shoot 50BMG.I have two 50 bmg unlimited guns built on McMillan actions.

CSACANNONEER
08-11-2013, 8:18 PM
Lynn,

Yes, I noticed that you are the only one who's offered to let the OP use your equipment and commend you for that. I would have and have done the same in the past but, I've got too much on my plate to make a similar offer right now. Besides, the OP isn't looking for a set up based on a 50BMG cartridge. However, if the OP had registered for the CGSSA reloading club precision rifle class I'll be giving next weekend, he would have been able to meet the rest of the class at Angeles next Sunday and use either of my 50s to hit the little red pig at 600 with every round he had loaded during the class. But, he isn't registered for the class so, that's not an option and, that is why I encouraged him to take you up on your offer.

Have you shot FCSA Matches? If so, do you currently shoot them?

In the end, we are going to have to agree to disagree about learning on a rimfire instead of spending more to learn on a more expensive gun to feed.

Altahick
08-11-2013, 8:28 PM
you all should just quit arguing with Lynn hes delusional and always will be

Merc1138
08-11-2013, 8:30 PM
My advice comes from many years of experience in many longrange disciplines and it was to buy a Savage in 6BR and shoot factory ammo at 600 yards and further.I gave the price of the rifle and the ammo earlier but you might have missed that? I didn't see anyone offering much scope advice just a ballpark price of what a scope might cost.I guess I missed your post on scope choices so please link it here.I was actually a math major but tend to round things off if I find they are to be used as generalities rather than graded.
My opinion on scopes for those viewing is to get what your eyes prefer and not what someone else suggests on a message board.I have several Nightforce 12-42's but my father whom I shoot with prefers the 8-32.I don't like the 8-32 so I get what my eyes prefer.Shooters also tend to promote what they have and not necessarily what is best.
I am not a great shooter just someone who has always liked shooting and once in a while I get lucky.I don't understand your comment on my attitude as I believe YOU were the one to use derogatory language in this post and also the earlier post you linked.Delusional ring a bell?
As to being a blight on the shooting community I actually know several shooters a vice president of a shooting organization a match director
and his coharts that fit that bill much better than myself and I see some of them post here


CSACANNONEER
I gave the OP my honest opinion as someone who seriously tries to promote longrange shooting.I enjoy shooting longrange and have mentored as many new shooters as anyone I know in the various disciplines I like to shoot.
If you have someone interested in longrange shooting such as the original poster I will loan them my guns and ammo free of obligation and let them see if this is what they really want to do before they go wasting copious amounts of money.I call it being prudent while at the same time letting them see what it takes to be competitive.As not all longrange is competitive I also have a somewhat large collection of rifles that can be used for varmints,hunting big game or blasting targets on public lands all at extreme distances and mainly just for fun.
I find most of the comments here geared towards tactical competition and I would not limit anyone to a single discipline without going over the various requirements of such.
If you noticed I am the only poster offering the OP a chance to use top of the line gear without obligation and to offer him/her some guidance as well.I am confident that I can get a new shooter on target at 600 yards and that there targets will be respectable.This is not bragging this is experience and knowing ones equipment.
I hope this helps explain why I would spend so much time on what most would consider a trivial topic at best?
I see from your posts you shoot 50BMG.I have two 50 bmg unlimited guns built on McMillan actions.

You can't say that a rifle costs X compared to another rifle, when in reality it's going to be X + optic. It doesn't matter if he spends $300 or $3000, that's still more than the cost you stated(and kind of a necessity considering the rifle you mentioned).

Instead of name dropping now you're just dropping titles of people you know. Yes, it's bragging. You've been doing lots of bragging. Doesn't make you any more correct either.

Steve_In_29
08-12-2013, 10:56 AM
Ooops did I forgot to answer a question? As you don't know anything about the 6BR which is extremely popular in longrange shooting I figured why waste the bandwith.
His 22 ammo will run him Eley Match .22lr Ammunition Box of 50
Starting at: $13.70 $2750 for decent stuff not the best stuff.I know you wanted him to shoot junk ammo in the 22 so you can try and make a point but lets atleast be realistic.

You also failed to mention how many new barrels he would have to put on his 6BR gun to shoot 500 boxes of ammo but maybe 500 boxes is normal wear and tear on YOUR centerfire barrels?
Can you tell me how many boxes of centerfire ammo you shot in 2012?
Can you give us a percentage of guys shooting longrange that shoot 500 boxes of ammo per year?
Is it 80% or higher?


CSAcannoneer
If I take this guy out to the range what size 5 shot groups would he be shooting without his 22 fundamental training on his very first day? I want to gauge how much larger his groups are going to be with no experience versus spending $2750 on rimfire ammo and $2600 on the rifle or $5350.

Earlier in this thread someone accused myself of not liking 22's so I am including a picture here.I don't know anything about the picture or what it is of or about so maybe that poster can help me out here? Is it even firearms related?
I haven't been posting on the Centerfire Forum much but it sure didn't take long to figure out the wacko on it.

Your reading comprehension as well as ability to follow a logical conversation seems to be very lacking. The OP is NOT an already-well-versed-shooter that is simply looking to get into a new discipline. He is, by his own admission in the opening post of this thread, "not an experienced shooter". How does one gain "experience"...through practice. He will have and be able to afford MUCH more practice with a .22 setup that will allow him to fire thousands of rounds a year then he would with a centerfire setup that he might shoot a couple hundred rounds a year through. Which part of that don't you understand?

Plus even if he never moves on to long range shooting he will still have a nice .22 setup that he, his children and even grandkids can use for the rest of their lives. A rifle/scope combo that can be had for right at $1,000.

Wolf MT is far from "junk ammo" and while I freely admit it is not Olympic Competition quality, it is perfectly suited, both in cost and consistancy, for the OP to develop his basic marksmanship skills. Such skills that are ONLY developed through LOTS of practice, which is where the 10,000rds came from. That number was not given as an expectation of how many rounds he (or anyone) would shoot in a year through a centerfire rifle.

Since you asked (though it has no bearing to the conversation) I shot approximately 2,000rds of centerfire and 10,000ish rounds of .22 ammo last year (I also dry-fired even more then that). Definitely not shooting that much this year though with the increase in costs and decrease in availability.

Strange that with your claimed ability to take a person from non-shooter to consistant hits at 1000yrds in a weekend, that the military hasn't snapped you up for one of their Sniper Training Programs yet.

luchador768
08-12-2013, 11:24 AM
I love that the OP checked out of this thread two pages ago.

FMJBT
08-12-2013, 11:48 AM
I love that the OP checked out of this thread two pages ago.


Lol, threads like this are what drive grown men to take up things like needlepoint and crochet as a hobby. ;)

LynnJr
08-12-2013, 9:59 PM
CSACAONNONR
I have only been to Palomino outside of Sparks for one 50 BMG match but didn't compete.I had Randy Dierks build me my first gun and wanted to get a handle on what I was going to need.I was a FCSA member for years but haven't renewed lately.

Merc1138
Its only bragging if you can't back it up.In this example I can and you can't.
Good luck with your shooting if you actually shoot and remember to get a handle on headspace.

Steve in 29
Your reading comprehension as well as ability to follow a logical conversation seems to be very lacking. The OP is NOT an already-well-versed-shooter that is simply looking to get into a new discipline. He is, by his own admission in the opening post of this thread, "not an experienced shooter". How does one gain "experience"...through practice. He will have and be able to afford MUCH more practice with a .22 setup that will allow him to fire thousands of rounds a year then he would with a centerfire setup that he might shoot a couple hundred rounds a year through. Which part of that don't you understand?

If you ever get the chance to shoot longrange the first thing you will notice is not many shooters show up.
If someone posts they would like to give longrange shooting a try I encourage them to do so.
The rest of the posters here yourself included go on a campaign that he has to shoot 10,000 rounds through a 22 at 200 yards for three years before ever attempting such a thing.
That is 100% pure BS and on top off that you managed to scare yet another shooter away.
You are not helping anyone and are instead discouraging those who want to give the sport a try.
My reading is spot on as I managed in one post to figure out who knows what and who is a keyboard warrior on this forum.
I only hope the OP contacts myself for a day of shooting some truly accurate rifles so we can dispel all of the bad info given out on this thread by posters such as yourself.
One gains longrange shooting experience by shooting longrange which is my recommendation.Your recommendation has him shooting shortrange with a squirrel gun.I know wacko when I see it and the shoe doesn't fit me.I do know who it fits though.

Merc1138
08-12-2013, 10:34 PM
CSACAONNONR
I have only been to Palomino outside of Sparks for one 50 BMG match but didn't compete.I had Randy Dierks build me my first gun and wanted to get a handle on what I was going to need.I was a FCSA member for years but haven't renewed lately.

Merc1138
Its only bragging if you can't back it up.In this example I can and you can't.
Good luck with your shooting if you actually shoot and remember to get a handle on headspace.

Steve in 29
Your reading comprehension as well as ability to follow a logical conversation seems to be very lacking. The OP is NOT an already-well-versed-shooter that is simply looking to get into a new discipline. He is, by his own admission in the opening post of this thread, "not an experienced shooter". How does one gain "experience"...through practice. He will have and be able to afford MUCH more practice with a .22 setup that will allow him to fire thousands of rounds a year then he would with a centerfire setup that he might shoot a couple hundred rounds a year through. Which part of that don't you understand?

If you ever get the chance to shoot longrange the first thing you will notice is not many shooters show up.
If someone posts they would like to give longrange shooting a try I encourage them to do so.
The rest of the posters here yourself included go on a campaign that he has to shoot 10,000 rounds through a 22 at 200 yards for three years before ever attempting such a thing.
That is 100% pure BS and on top off that you managed to scare yet another shooter away.
You are not helping anyone and are instead discouraging those who want to give the sport a try.
My reading is spot on as I managed in one post to figure out who knows what and who is a keyboard warrior on this forum.
I only hope the OP contacts myself for a day of shooting some truly accurate rifles so we can dispel all of the bad info given out on this thread by posters such as yourself.
One gains longrange shooting experience by shooting longrange which is my recommendation.Your recommendation has him shooting shortrange with a squirrel gun.I know wacko when I see it and the shoe doesn't fit me.I do know who it fits though.

No one ever said he had to shoot 10,000 rounds either. Do I need to go back and count the lies you've posted in this thread about supposed statements from people?

"squirrel gun" lol.

BTW, (and seriously, is using the quote function so difficult?) you haven't backed anything up. The only thing you've done(and it's not something minor, I didn't feel a need to comment on this as CSACANNONEER already posted something that was close to my own sentiment on the matter) is offer to let the guy shoot your guns. That's great, no one is giving you crap for that. But you've repeatedly lied, posted nonsense, misquoted people, put words in other people's mouths that were never stated, and fairly consistently managed to talk crap about everyone else's choices in equipment with your comments about "junk ammo" and "squirrel guns". You're pretty much doing the same thing(albiet from a different perspective) that people get sick of from the "Tacticool operator" types. It's not exactly endearing. Flies, vinegar, honey, and all that.

Steve_In_29
08-13-2013, 12:37 AM
If you ever get the chance to shoot longrange the first thing you will notice is not many shooters show up.
If someone posts they would like to give longrange shooting a try I encourage them to do so.
The rest of the posters here yourself included go on a campaign that he has to shoot 10,000 rounds through a 22 at 200 yards for three years before ever attempting such a thing.
That is 100% pure BS and on top off that you managed to scare yet another shooter away.
You are not helping anyone and are instead discouraging those who want to give the sport a try.
My reading is spot on as I managed in one post to figure out who knows what and who is a keyboard warrior on this forum.
I only hope the OP contacts myself for a day of shooting some truly accurate rifles so we can dispel all of the bad info given out on this thread by posters such as yourself.
One gains longrange shooting experience by shooting longrange which is my recommendation.Your recommendation has him shooting shortrange with a squirrel gun.I know wacko when I see it and the shoe doesn't fit me.I do know who it fits though.
Yet again, you have proven that you are incapable of carrying on a logical discussion or comprehending what other people post. The only shoe I see is the one in your mouth attached to your foot.

Contrary to the words you insist on putting in every bodies mouths, neither myself nor anyone else here, has said that long-range-shooting is learned by any means other then long-range-shooting.

What you have consistently failed to grasp is that the OP stated he is an inexperienced shooter and given that admission, he needs to practice the basics of marksmanship to get a solid foundation on which to build any long-range skills. A foundation that any TRUE marksman will tell you is based on repetition and practice.

Given the OPs stated lack of experience, what was prudently recommended by almost everyone but you, was that he purchase a quality .22 rifle/scope which would allow him to get in the requisite practice in the most affordable way. $2 a pop 6BR rounds are not a cost effective way to learn basic marksmanship for anyone short of an Oil Sheik.

Since you have shown yourself to also be mathematically challenged I will break my arbitrarily selected 10,000rds figure down for you as well. It equals less then 200rds of .22 a weekend for a year or a brick-a-weekend for 5 months. Not exactly an insurmountable delay prior to moving on to long-range if he still so desired.

If anything it is your psychotic, troll-like behavior in this thread that put the OP off from taking you up on your offer to let him shoot your rifle. Though I now notice you didn't actually make that offer until well after the OP had taken the advice on a .22 and left the thread.

I still find it hard to believe that our government (or a PMC) has let someone with your supposed skill at teaching marksmanship slip through their fingers and hasn't offered you a high paying job teaching our nations snipers. Since it seems that all a non-shooter needs is a couple hours with you and they are a consistent 1000yd killer that can be sent out to the front.

On Edit: By the way I have shot long-range before at the local NRA Regional here and the 50 target firing line was full. Stock M1 Garand with open sights at 1000yds. No 6BR or fancy rifle/scope thank you very much.

LynnJr
08-13-2013, 8:34 AM
Merc1138
"No one ever said he had to shoot 10,000 rounds either. Do I need to go back and count the lies you've posted in this thread about supposed statements from people?"
"But you've repeatedly lied, posted nonsense, misquoted people, put words in other people's mouths that were never stated, and fairly consistently managed to talk crap about everyone else's choices in equipment with your comments about "junk ammo"

Steve in 29
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)
"I will break my arbitrarily selected 10,000rds figure down for you as well. It equals less then 200rds of .22 a weekend for a year or a brick-a-weekend for 5 months. Not exactly an insurmountable delay prior to moving on to long-range"
"Lapua centerX has worked the best out of all my .22's at distance. The wolf match is great as well, but opens up a bit at over 100y."

Now I fully realise that your a little thick Merc1138 but the above quotes are in the form of quotes and they show you as the liar don't they?
As to squirrel gun isn't that a very common name given to 22's?
As to junk ammo would that not describe ammo that "opens up" a 100 yards earlier than you want the OP to practice at?

You then ramble on saying I am putting words in peoples mouths.I believe its actually called cut copy and paste and its taken directly from there posts.Again please read the posts and comprehend what they are saying before replying.If that is supposed to be in quotes let me know.

This is for Steve in 29

Contrary to the words you insist on putting in every bodies mouths, neither myself nor anyone else here, has said that long-range-shooting is learned by any means other then long-range-shooting.

"A good 22 and a few years of practice and you'll be ready to go."

"When a shooter masters a 22 at 200yds, they are ready to jump into a centerfire and push the target out to 800yds and beyond."

I think those are quotes taken from this thread that actually show you as the liar here an that the person with the foot in his mouth is obvious to all reading.

Back on topic if that is even remotely possible?
Anyone wanting to get into longrange shooting should give it a try.There is no magic to it as some would have you believe and it is fun for beginners and seasoned veterans alike.Practice and more importantly learning from your mistakes while practicing is what will make you a better longrange shooter.

Merc1138
08-13-2013, 8:38 AM
No, I can't say I've heard many people these days call a .22lr target rifle a "squirrel gun", nor does Steve_in_29's math demand that the OP shoot 10,000 rounds. He was giving you a cost difference example. Also, it's still not "junk ammo".

You've got issues.

LynnJr
08-13-2013, 10:46 AM
Merc1138
This kinda says it all doesn't it?

Merc1138
I need a LIFE!!

Once you figure out what headspace is and how it works I would suggest you spend 3 years learning the fundamentals with a 22 "Squirrel Gun" before ever attempting a longrange shot.
For some people yourself included baby steps would be the best approach.

Merc1138
08-13-2013, 11:58 AM
Why I can't image how anyone could possibly take all of your BS as being an unnecessarily hostile elitist jerk. How about some excerpts? You'll also note that I don't need to misquote anyone, or type out incorrect statements while claiming it's just a use of "copy and paste" like you have. Insult after insult, repeatedly talking crap about a group of people you've apparently never met and know nothing about, making silly proclamations about some status you claim yet no one cares about, attacking people over their post count and automated user title change that occurs with post count, and I'm sure I've missed some other snide comment of yours in this thread about weekend warriors or something.


I would also stay clear of the guys running around in fatigues and jumping through tires.
If you want to shoot longrange take up Palma F-class or Benchrest and leave the gung ho stuff to the Rambo types.



To the poster who shot 22's for several years before going to longrange.
If your buddy took a new shooter out and spent a day with him and he couldn't hit a gong at 550 yards he should get a new barrel put on that rifle or change the scope as something is seriously wrong.I can take a kid out to 600 yards who has never fired a gun and in 2 hours the gong will be boring for him/her to hit anymore.


Over 12,000 posts and you haven't learned a thing.



Now go start a new thread titled "Headspace"and ask why and you can cut copy and paste what I wrote so you ask it right.


I think your reading skills could use a little bit of polishing.
I would never tell someone interested in Longrange shooting to buy a 22.I wouldn't tell someone interested in Formula 1 to buy a 3 speed Schwinn bicycle either.
You didn't put up a post about the headspace you know nothing about but now your handing out more bad advice on a sport you know nothing about.I just finished posting on the Calfee website and come here to find out from you of all people that I don't like 22's.You simply can't make this stuff up.


This is were you guy lose me.You make stuff up because you simply don't know the answers.Why don't you know the answers because you don't ask questions of those that do know.You would rather argue than learn something.



Earlier in this thread someone accused myself of not liking 22's so I am including a picture here.I don't know anything about the picture or what it is of or about so maybe that poster can help me out here? Is it even firearms related?


Good luck with your shooting if you actually shoot and remember to get a handle on headspace.

Steve in 29
Your reading comprehension as well as ability to follow a logical conversation seems to be very lacking.


The rest of the posters here yourself included go on a campaign that he has to shoot 10,000 rounds through a 22 at 200 yards for three years before ever attempting such a thing.

Your recommendation has him shooting shortrange with a squirrel gun.I know wacko when I see it and the shoe doesn't fit me.I do know who it fits though.


Now I fully realise that your a little thick Merc1138 but the above quotes are in the form of quotes and they show you as the liar don't they?


This is for Steve in 29


I think those are quotes taken from this thread that actually show you as the liar here an that the person with the foot in his mouth is obvious to all reading.


Merc1138
This kinda says it all doesn't it?

Merc1138
I need a LIFE!!

Once you figure out what headspace is and how it works I would suggest you spend 3 years learning the fundamentals with a 22 "Squirrel Gun" before ever attempting a longrange shot.
For some people yourself included baby steps would be the best approach.

ar15barrels
08-13-2013, 12:39 PM
How about some excerpts?

Holy crap.
I just found out that I am a Rambo type.
I don't shoot palma, f-class or benchrest and I own a BDU top that I use as my shooting coat as I had a sling loop sewn into the left shoulder!
I bought the BDU top because it was heavy duty, made in the USA and way more affordable and cooler in hot weather than a dedicated shooting jacket.
I never know that simply having the camo print on it was going to turn me into rambo.
They need to put that piece of info on a surgeon generals warning and sew it into the shirt before they sell them.

I wonder if I can dye it black to cover the camo print.
Shoot, then I would be a NInja.

I just can't win...

jakuda
08-13-2013, 12:44 PM
At least there is still some interest in long range rifle shooting. There are far fewer people who compete in Bullseye or free pistol, where the slow fire strings are at 50 yards one handed.

FMJBT
08-13-2013, 2:25 PM
Holy crap.
I just found out that I am a Rambo type.
I just can't win...

Col. Trautman: "We didn't make you this fighting machine Randall. We just chipped away the rough edges. You're always going to be tearing away at yourself until you come to terms with what you are. Until you come full circle...."

Merc1138
08-13-2013, 2:31 PM
Col. Trautman: "We didn't make you this fighting machine Randall. We just chipped away the rough edges. You're always going to be tearing away at yourself until you come to terms with what you are. Until you come full circle...."

No.... if he's a "Rambo type", then he's not really Rambo. I'm thinking more along the lines of a Reb Brown.

Who is Reb Brown you may ask? Only one of the most promising action stars of the 80's. Just look at how many barrels his AR has!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/Strike_Commando_FilmPoster.jpeg

Wait... so many AR barrels... arbarrels... rambo type..

Holy crap. Randall is really Reb Brown!

FMJBT
08-13-2013, 3:06 PM
^^^
Lol, I can't tell if thats a cobra tattoo on his arm, or a cat turd.


On a side note, those barrels look pretty thin, like .22 thin. Imagine how many squirrels that thing could take out.... :eek:

Merc1138
08-13-2013, 3:16 PM
^^^
Lol, I can't tell if thats a cobra tattoo on his arm, or a cat turd.


On a side note, those barrels look pretty thin, like .22 thin. Imagine how many squirrels that thing could take out.... :eek:

Barrels on an AR looking .22 thin, like the same diameter of 5.56? :p Besides, there's 7 barrels, notice the huge 6BR barrel in the middle of the 6 smaller barrels that doesn't have any muzzle flash.

Man.. you don't know Reb Brown? Next thing I know you'll tell me you don't know who Pierre Kirby is.

LynnJr
08-13-2013, 3:52 PM
FMJBT
"On a side note, those barrels look pretty thin, like .22 thin. Imagine how many squirrels that thing could take out.... "

I think you might hit a sensitive nerve with Merc1138 if you mention 22 and squirrel in the same sentence?

Randall
Do you jump through tires? I thought from my limited time here you were an across the course type shooter.?

Cypriss32
08-13-2013, 4:18 PM
Holy crap.
I just found out that I am a Rambo type.
I don't shoot palma, f-class or benchrest and I own a BDU top that I use as my shooting coat as I had a sling loop sewn into the left shoulder!
I bought the BDU top because it was heavy duty, made in the USA and way more affordable and cooler in hot weather than a dedicated shooting jacket.
I never know that simply having the camo print on it was going to turn me into rambo.
They need to put that piece of info on a surgeon generals warning and sew it into the shirt before they sell them.

I wonder if I can dye it black to cover the camo print.
Shoot, then I would be a NInja.

I just can't win...

I remember you played sniper at the XTREME match........

ar15barrels
08-13-2013, 5:49 PM
Randall
Do you jump through tires? I thought from my limited time here you were an across the course type shooter.?

Not very often, but I have probably had to run through tires 3 times in the last 18 years of shooting matches.

Here is the most recent stage that required us to run through tires:
qiuO-pLx94I

That's NOT me in the video.
I shoot Precision Rifle, 3gun, IPSC/Action Pistol and Steel challenge.
I help run Precision Rifle matches monthly.
I don't get to do as much run-n-gun style shooting as I used to...

russ69
08-13-2013, 6:57 PM
Not very often, but I have probably had to run through tires 3 times in the last 18 years of shooting matches...

Does the asymmetrical tread pattern affect your grouping?

ar15barrels
08-14-2013, 1:03 AM
Does the asymmetrical tread pattern affect your grouping?

The tires you run through at matches are usually bald.
No tread...

Shooting off of a stack of tires is actually really neat because you can rest the gun on the tires solidly, then just flex the whole stack to adjust the elevation of your aim.

Steve_In_29
08-14-2013, 8:52 PM
Steve in 29
.22: 10,000rds divided by a 500rd brick = 20 bricks x $59.99 = $1,199.80 (Wolf MT)
"I will break my arbitrarily selected 10,000rds figure down for you as well. It equals less then 200rds of .22 a weekend for a year or a brick-a-weekend for 5 months. Not exactly an insurmountable delay prior to moving on to long-range"
Corrected my name for you. Seems you once again demonstrated your lack of attention-to-detail.

You are also still showing your inability to comprehend what is written, because you are fixated on the 10,000rds figure as some kind of requirement when I plainly stated and others understood it to be, simply a number picked to demonstrate the exponential cost increase involved for a new shooter trying to learn the basics with your recommended centerfire cartridge over a rimfire rifle.

While the 10,000rd figure was somewhat arbitrarily provided for the cost comparison example, it does have validity as far as mastering-the-basics-goes since it is a not unrealistic amount of .22 ammo to shoot in the pursuit of such. My kids and then grandson would easily go through double that amount in a year of range trips. Luckily a brick was only $5 back when my kids were learning, unlike what it cost me for the grandson. :eek:

This is for Steve in 29
"Contrary to the words you insist on putting in every bodies mouths, neither myself nor anyone else here, has said that long-range-shooting is learned by any means other then long-range-shooting."

"A good 22 and a few years of practice and you'll be ready to go."

"When a shooter masters a 22 at 200yds, they are ready to jump into a centerfire and push the target out to 800yds and beyond."

I think those are quotes taken from this thread that actually show you as the liar here an that the person with the foot in his mouth is obvious to all reading.
Quotes that simply recommend a .22 for learning the basics of shooting don't support your position that, "people are telling the OP to learn long-range shooting with a .22" in the slightest. Where do your selected quotes say anything about long-range shooting??

Why is it that you are totally incapable of differentiating between recommendations about mastering the basics of shooting and learning how to shoot long-range? :facepalm::facepalm:

In your favor though, you have definitely convinced me that you don't have your foot in your mouth, because I can see that there is no way for your foot to reach your mouth now that you have shown us how deep your cranial orb is inserted into your rectal cavity. My head hurt just trying to make sense of your cut/paste hodgepodge mess.

Steve_In_29
08-14-2013, 8:57 PM
.......On a side note, those barrels look pretty thin, like .22 thin. Imagine how many squirrels that thing could take out.... :eek:
Strangely enough, that round they use for the "i" sure does seem to be a rimfire. Note the slight flare of the base. LOL

LynnJr
08-14-2013, 11:01 PM
Hey Steve in 29
I am not fixated with 10,000 rounds at all.You are the one posting here about buying 10,000 rounds and how you yourself shoot 10,000 rounds I just used YOUR example and most thought it was silly as did I.

I recommend zero rounds of 22 but for some reason you can't figure that out.

I am also fully capable of differentiating what is being said here.The OP wants to shoot longrange and you want him to learn fundamentals with a squirrel gun then after some arbitrary amount of time a lightbulb will go off above his head and it will suddenly be the right time to shoot longrange.

I want him to learn longrange by shooting longrange and you think that is impossible.

Merc1138
08-14-2013, 11:08 PM
Hey Steve in 29
I am not fixated with 10,000 rounds at all.You are the one posting here about buying 10,000 rounds and how you yourself shoot 10,000 rounds I just used YOUR example and most thought it was silly as did I.

I recommend zero rounds of 22 but for some reason you can't figure that out.

I am also fully capable of differentiating what is being said here.The OP wants to shoot longrange and you want him to learn fundamentals with a squirrel gun then after some arbitrary amount of time a lightbulb will go off above his head and it will suddenly be the right time to shoot longrange.

I want him to learn longrange by shooting longrange and you think that is impossible.

Again with the elitist jerkwad attitude. How do you manage to not end up with spit in your food every time you go out to eat?

Also there you go again trying to prove something. No one has questioned your shooting ability(no one seems to care either), yet you keep wanting to brag. Sure, people are obviously in disagreement with your ideas about how to learn basic shooting fundamentals, but it's your attitude that has gotten so many people(and apparently not just this thread, an entire club based off what you've posted in the other) irritated just from communicating with you.

As far as the plaques
http://i.qkme.me/3qh31a.jpg

I still don't agree with your ideas of how to learn fundamentals.

FMJBT
08-14-2013, 11:11 PM
Strangely enough, that round they use for the "i" sure does seem to be a rimfire. Note the slight flare of the base. LOL

It does actually look like a .22 now that you mention it. I also like how they drew they guys mouth to have the same "OMG! I think I'm having a stroke!" lopsided snarl that Sylvester Stallone has. Oddly enough, after reading through most of this thread, thats about how half of my face feels as well. Pretty sure I felt something up in HQ go "pop!' about half a page ago.... ;)

LynnJr
08-15-2013, 3:16 AM
Merc1138
You don't even know what headspace is and yet you think somebody out there actually cares about your opinion on longrange shooting? Really!!!!!
The OP is way out in front of you.
Merc1138
I need a LIFE!!
Again this truly says it all and it was put there for good reason someone is telling you something.

Merc1138
08-15-2013, 7:48 AM
Merc1138
You don't even know what headspace is and yet you think somebody out there actually cares about your opinion on longrange shooting? Really!!!!!
The OP is way out in front of you.
Merc1138
I need a LIFE!!
Again this truly says it all and it was put there for good reason someone is telling you something.

And now you're starting to sound like a broken record.

LynnJr
08-15-2013, 9:16 AM
And now you're starting to sound like a broken record.

Not really.
People here are seeking good sound advice from people familiar with the subject at hand.If you don't have knowledge of what the poster is after You really shouldn't post as that only confuses them further.
In this example I have many years of longrange shooting experience a sall amount of success and I am willing to take the poster shooting and teach him/her how it is done.
I see very few posters here with the willingness to actually help the poster with his/her desired goal yourself included.I see lots of posts about learning fundamentals at short distances hoping they will help this poster when he/she decides to do what they came here asking about.

You on the other hand don't understand basic reloading vocabulary and are not helping the original poster in any way.Are YOU willing to take the poster shooting?
Do you have the required equipment?
Do you have the skills?
If not your just wasting bandwith.

Merc1138
08-15-2013, 9:32 AM
Not really.
People here are seeking good sound advice from people familiar with the subject at hand.If you don't have knowledge of what the poster is after You really shouldn't post as that only confuses them further.
In this example I have many years of longrange shooting experience a sall amount of success and I am willing to take the poster shooting and teach him/her how it is done.
I see very few posters here with the willingness to actually help the poster with his/her desired goal yourself included.I see lots of posts about learning fundamentals at short distances hoping they will help this poster when he/she decides to do what they came here asking about.

You on the other hand don't understand basic reloading vocabulary and are not helping the original poster in any way.Are YOU willing to take the poster shooting?
Do you have the required equipment?
Do you have the skills?
If not your just wasting bandwith.

Sorry, but at this point it really only looks like you volunteered just so you could show off. No, I don't setup bro-dates with random people from the internet. The fact that you can't even grasp the concept of what basic shooting fundamentals even are simply reinforces the point that you don't understand what you're talking about. Maybe you're one of those people who happens to have been a "natural", doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. You have taken it upon yourself to declare that everyone is somehow out to get you, and that no one believes your self proclaimed superior shooting skills. Whether you developed your attitude problem after years of shooting, or had it before you got started is irrelevant, but it's still a problem.

As far as "wasting bandwidth" goes, your troll thread and lame story about a lawsuit over a raffle isn't any better(btw, the OP doesn't seem to have come back either, nor do I blame him).

FMJBT
08-15-2013, 9:44 AM
^^^^

Gahhhh!!! There it goes again..... "**** Pop! ****"

http://coolfunnypicz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Sylvester-Stallone-Photoshoppe-face-Funny-Picture.jpg

ar15barrels
08-15-2013, 10:37 AM
I see very few posters here with the willingness to actually help the poster with his/her desired goal yourself included.I see lots of posts about learning fundamentals at short distances hoping they will help this poster when he/she decides to do what they came here asking about.

I help run precision rifle clinics where we start off with the fundamentals of marksmanship at 100yds and then take shooters out to 1000yds over 4 days of instruction.
The clinics are 1 day a month over four months in spring of each year.
By the end of the 4th clinic, the shooters have a solid foundation in precision and longrange rifle marksmanship.

The most important part of those 4 days is the 100yd fundamentals day.
That is the day where we see the most significant improvements in the shooters.
The second day is 200-600yds, spotting/calling shots, gathering hard dope, using ballistic calculators to generate soft dope and a little bit of mirage reading.
The 3rd day is unsupported and improvised positions such as shooting from barricades, out of cars, off of props etc...
The last day is all spent at 800, 900 & 1000 where they learn how to run pits, wind flags amd mirage and when to use/trust mirage vs. flags.

Just because you don't see me posting up in this thread offering to teach the guy does NOT mean that i am not actually out there helping new shooters...

StraightShooter
08-15-2013, 10:43 AM
I help run precision rifle clinics where we start off with the fundamentals of marksmanship at 100yds and then take shooters out to 1000yds over 4 days of instruction.
The clinics are 1 day a month over four months in spring of each year.
By the end of the 4th clinic, the shooters have a solid foundation in precision and longrange rifle marksmanship.

The most important part of those 4 days is the 100yd fundamentals day.
That is the day where we see the most significant improvements in the shooters.
The second day is 200-600yds, spotting/calling shots, gathering hard dope, using ballistic calculators to generate soft dope and a little bit of mirage reading.
The 3rd day is unsupported and improvised positions such as shooting from barricades, out of cars, off of props etc...
The last day is all spent at 800, 900 & 1000 where they learn how to run pits, wind flags amd mirage and when to use/trust mirage vs. flags.

Just because you don't see me posting up in this thread offering to teach the guy does NOT mean that i am not actually out there helping new shooters...

Yep any new shooter who wants to learn long range marksmanship should hook up with Randall and the CAPRC. They will get you squared away.

jakuda
08-15-2013, 11:01 AM
Look, one of the reasons people say to start with 22LR is that you don't have to worry about reloading and equipment to a large degree. And everything starts out cheap.

You can have success spending money on a centerfire rifle and all the ammo or reloading stuff now too, as long as you understand what to devote your energies to, which is trigger control. It's too easy for beginners to get sucked into conjuring up the best barrel, bullet, powder, scope, and all the stuff that people focus on instead of getting better.

*shrug*

Cypriss32
08-15-2013, 11:19 AM
SoCal guys should go shoot with Caprc and the Brady bunch....

postal
08-15-2013, 1:20 PM
SoCal guys should go shoot with Caprc and the Brady bunch....

CAPRC is a good start. There are others.

In norcal, is another group that does similar at a range around sacto. (I know you knew that- posting it up for others)

----------------

On another topic.....

Currently I only have 1 single member 'blocked'.... that member ends in '..jr'-

Been blocked for some weeks now and life is so much more pleasant.

It's not hard to do, just go to your control panel... You'll be glad you did. I only see what he posts when someone else quotes it.

Steve_In_29
08-15-2013, 6:58 PM
I help run precision rifle clinics where we start off with the fundamentals of marksmanship at 100yds and then take shooters out to 1000yds over 4 days of instruction.
The clinics are 1 day a month over four months in spring of each year.
By the end of the 4th clinic, the shooters have a solid foundation in precision and longrange rifle marksmanship.

The most important part of those 4 days is the 100yd fundamentals day.
That is the day where we see the most significant improvements in the shooters.
The second day is 200-600yds, spotting/calling shots, gathering hard dope, using ballistic calculators to generate soft dope and a little bit of mirage reading.
The 3rd day is unsupported and improvised positions such as shooting from barricades, out of cars, off of props etc...
The last day is all spent at 800, 900 & 1000 where they learn how to run pits, wind flags amd mirage and when to use/trust mirage vs. flags.

Just because you don't see me posting up in this thread offering to teach the guy does NOT mean that i am not actually out there helping new shooters...
Sounds like a great class. What is the cost?

Just for info I was wondering if you get many people in the class who have no real shooting experience? Is the first day's instruction aimed at actually learning the basics or just tuning the students up on what they already know?

Are the students encouraged/expected to get in some range practice time between attending each class?

LynnJr
08-15-2013, 7:09 PM
Randall
You were one of the few in my earlier comment and I realize what you do for the shooting sports.
I shoot with Jerry Tierney who reset 22 records a couple years back has won the NBRSA Nationals several times and is the best wind reader I know.He credits his smallbore shooting with helping him reach the level he is at today and I respect his opinion as well.
I naturally do things my own way and think I can get a new shooter up to speed pretty quickly and after that start they can shoot and hopefully learn from there mistakes which is my biggest concern.
I don't advocate skipping the fundamentals I advocate learning them at your desired distance or distances.
As you already know most shooters have several barrels so they can practice or compete.
In my opinion I can get the new shooter who hasn't been misguided by others up to par quickly.If that same shooter has been internet taught I have a very difficult time as I have to de-program all of the myths first.

Cypriss32
08-15-2013, 7:17 PM
CAPRC is a good start. There are others.

In norcal, is another group that does similar at a range around sacto. (I know you knew that- posting it up for others)

----------------

On another topic.....

Currently I only have 1 single member 'blocked'.... that member ends in '..jr'-

Been blocked for some weeks now and life is so much more pleasant.

It's not hard to do, just go to your control panel... You'll be glad you did. I only see what he posts when someone else quotes it.

Yep you should see my panel......... All the resellers, *******s, leftists, and idiots are blocked.

Steve_In_29
08-15-2013, 7:24 PM
Merc1138
I need a LIFE!!
Again this truly says it all and it was put there for good reason someone is telling you something.
Yet again showing a lack of attention to detail and comprehension, in that you seem to think an arbitrarily chosen and automatically applied appellation of a User's Status (based on post count) to a member's name somehow conveys anything other then a sense of humor on the part of the Board's designer.

I would hope that (though not entirely sure) you aren't trying to claim that the Board's underlying programming code is one of the "others" that are somehow on your side in this issue?

russ69
08-15-2013, 7:49 PM
Yep you should see my panel......... All the resellers, *******s, leftists, and idiots are blocked.

Who's left? I guess it makes for quicker reading?

Cypriss32
08-15-2013, 7:54 PM
Who's left? I guess it makes for quicker reading?

Just you and Randall....... KISS. Duh?

LynnJr
08-15-2013, 8:05 PM
Yet again showing a lack of attention to detail and comprehension, in that you seem to think an arbitrarily chosen and automatically applied appellation of a User's Status (based on post count) to a member's name somehow conveys anything other then a sense of humor on the part of the Board's designer.

I would hope that (though not entirely sure) you aren't trying to claim that the Board's underlying programming code is one of the "others" that are somehow on your side in this issue?

If it fits and in this case it does wear it.

You might read the post by Postal and give that a try.I would also recommend you get a 22 and shoot 10,000 rounds a year for three years before attending Randall's class.

Randall I hope this gives you a three year headstart.
LOLROFLMAO

Steve_In_29
08-15-2013, 8:56 PM
Hey Steve in 29
I am not fixated with 10,000 rounds at all.You are the one posting here about buying 10,000 rounds and how you yourself shoot 10,000 rounds I just used YOUR example and most thought it was silly as did I.

I recommend zero rounds of 22 but for some reason you can't figure that out.

I am also fully capable of differentiating what is being said here.The OP wants to shoot longrange and you want him to learn fundamentals with a squirrel gun then after some arbitrary amount of time a lightbulb will go off above his head and it will suddenly be the right time to shoot longrange.

I want him to learn longrange by shooting longrange and you think that is impossible.
Once again a fail at comprehension on your part. No where did I (or others) say the OP would learn to shoot long-range by shooting a .22. Even more importantly, you are failing at comprehending the fact that the OP stated he had very little shooting experience period.

What I and others recommended was that he first spend time on a .22 to develop his basic marksmanship skills (sight alignment/sight picture/trigger control/breathing/natural point of aim/etc). Which are all ONLY developed by shooting (the more the better) and are the building blocks of successfully shooting at longer ranges. Something that is recognized by every branch of the military and all (non-savant) competition shooters, which only YOU are finding "silly". The mystical light bulb you mention would simply be his target, when it consistently shows a single hole group. Not a lot of thought needed there.

"Most people"?..unless you are counting the voices in your head, there was a single poster besides yourself that disagreed with the MAJORITY posting on this thread, who all espoused the .22 route. Hardly the definition of "most".

You have been irrationally, tilting-at-windmills through this whole thread, as not one poster has stated that it is "impossible to learn long-range by shooting long-range". We have all agreed that is in fact the ONLY way to learn long-range. You however seem to be locked-in-a-loop and unable to deviate from your parrot-like script when it comes to it being in the OP's best interest financially to FIRST master the basics of marksmanship (made much easier on an affordable platform) before moving on to learning the basics of shooting long-range with its exponentially higher outlay per shot.

None of us have even stated it is impossible to learn the basics of marksmanship by shooting something larger then a .22. Just that .22 is a MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE and accessible way to do so. I may be wrong but I would bet even you didn't spend your formative shooting years mastering the basics by shooting $2 a pop rounds like you are telling the OP to do.


Nice plaques, would actually mean something if they had a name or other identifying mark tying them to you though. Absent that it's just some random picture you found on the web to me and beyond that it's simply a logical fail as far as supporting your position, as they have no bearing on the discussion.

Steve_In_29
08-15-2013, 9:17 PM
If it fits and in this case it does wear it.

You might read the post by Postal and give that a try.I would also recommend you get a 22 and shoot 10,000 rounds a year for three years before attending Randall's class.

Randall I hope this gives you a three year headstart.
LOLROFLMAO
There is definitely a village somewhere missing their idiot.:facepalm::facepalm:

ar15barrels
08-16-2013, 1:45 AM
Sounds like a great class. What is the cost?

Just for info I was wondering if you get many people in the class who have no real shooting experience? Is the first day's instruction aimed at actually learning the basics or just tuning the students up on what they already know?

Are the students encouraged/expected to get in some range practice time between attending each class?

I think they are $60 per day for members and $75 for non club members and that includes lunch.
We do it to help the shooters and cover range fees, not for the money.

We get a few really new shooters per class, but most people already have done bad habits to break.
Virgin shooters are actually easier to teach because they have no pre-conceived notions of how things work.
You can show them something, have them try it and if it works for them, they just stick to it.

We structure the clinics specifically so the shooters have homework between clinics and 2-3 weekends of time between clinics to get out and work on their own.

Steve_In_29
08-16-2013, 6:54 AM
Thanks Randall. Was asking in case I ever had occasion to recommend the class to anyone.

LynnJr
08-16-2013, 7:53 AM
We get a few really new shooters per class, but most people already have done bad habits to break.
Virgin shooters are actually easier to teach because they have no pre-conceived notions of how things work.

Winner winner Randall gets a chicken dinner.I couldn't agree more.Its also why woman tend to shoot very well.They don't have bad habits already and they don't think they know it all already so they listen to there coach/mentor.

The young guys who already know everything there is to know tend to be harder to teach and are easily spotted in a crowd.They are even easier to spot on an internet forum.