PDA

View Full Version : Driving with an OLL AR15


sac1022
12-28-2007, 10:50 PM
I am a newbie here. I would like to ask what kind of paper works I have to bring with me when driving with an OLL AR15 in my car. Of cause the rifle is unloaded and stored the trunk in a locked hard-case. All information will be appreciated.
Thanks.

Shane916
12-28-2007, 10:53 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=71762

and

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

and

Info/Documents from:

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalCalifornia

Your OLL doesn't have to be locked up by law, but if you want to then thats cool too :)

sac1022
12-28-2007, 11:14 PM
Thanks Shane916. You are the man.

I have another question. Does the magazine must stay with the gun or it can be removed?

Army
12-29-2007, 12:17 AM
Remove the upper. Leave the 10rd mag in the well, it is NON-REMOVABLE. (I would, even with a BB or P-50)

The only paperwork you need, is a drivers license, vehicle registration, and proof of insurance.

tacticalcity
12-29-2007, 12:24 AM
I would not bother removing the upper. There is no point. The lower is the weapon. It is the point of contention all by itself.

Odds are it will never come to any of this...but worst case, it is best to be prepared.

I keep my paperwork in my rifle case with the rifle. It is a typed summery of why my rifle is legal. It includes summaries of SB23, and the Harriot Decision, and includes the legal definition of a fixed magazine. It also includes the reference number in the CCR so if they doubt me they can look it up. My paperwork explains how the three legal points mentioned above apply to my specific build. It is idiot proof.

If it is in the trunk, then that is the only "locked container" you need. If these is a magazine inserted inside the well make sure it is empty. The weapon needs to be unloaded. Loaded magazines can however be inside the trunk, in a separate compartment of the case or in another container all together. If they are hi-cap make certain they are pre-ban. There are ways to tell the difference in most cases.

Should he confiscate my rifle, after being presented with the above, and after my politely asking to speak with his superior, I now not only will get my rifle back, but I have a pretty good civil case as well. So why should I be rude to him? It really pays to be polite when dealing with the police, and really costs you not to be. If you're ducks are in a row, let him screw up and be patient while you elevate it to the next level.

Linh
12-29-2007, 3:12 AM
Thanks Shane916. You are the man.

I have another question. Does the magazine must stay with the gun or it can be removed?

Make sure you read the law. Like others have said if you use a bullet button then leave it attached with no ammo of course. You should remove it if you are using the monstergrip.

It's really *** that people have to buy a gun lock with the OLL but it's not requred to be locked up in a car.

robitrocks
12-29-2007, 10:32 AM
I keep my paperwork in my rifle case with the rifle. It is a typed summery of why my rifle is legal. It includes summaries of SB23, and the Harriot Decision, and includes the legal definition of a fixed magazine. It also includes the reference number in the CCR so if they doubt me they can look it up. My paperwork explains how the three legal points mentioned above apply to my specific build. It is idiot proof.
+1 I take a 3 ring notebook with all the AR/AK Memos from CalGuns. I also printed up the guide off of 10% with the pictures of different OLL builds (thanks Wes!). If a LEO sees you have your ducks in a row, he's going to be much more open-minded to your legality arguments. :D

Thorsen
12-29-2007, 4:00 PM
I would not bother removing the upper. There is no point. The lower is the weapon. It is the point of contention all by itself.

Odds are it will never come to any of this...but worst case, it is best to be prepared.

I keep my paperwork in my rifle case with the rifle. It is a typed summery of why my rifle is legal. It includes summaries of SB23, and the Harriot Decision, and includes the legal definition of a fixed magazine. It also includes the reference number in the CCR so if they doubt me they can look it up. My paperwork explains how the three legal points mentioned above apply to my specific build. It is idiot proof.

If it is in the trunk, then that is the only "locked container" you need. If these is a magazine inserted inside the well make sure it is empty. The weapon needs to be unloaded. Loaded magazines can however be inside the trunk, in a separate compartment of the case or in another container all together. If they are hi-cap make certain they are pre-ban. There are ways to tell the difference in most cases.

Should he confiscate my rifle, after being presented with the above, and after my politely asking to speak with his superior, I now not only will get my rifle back, but I have a pretty good civil case as well. So why should I be rude to him? It really pays to be polite when dealing with the police, and really costs you not to be. If you're ducks are in a row, let him screw up and be patient while you elevate it to the next level.

There is no way to tell if a mag is pre ban if someone has completely rebuilt preban mags.

hawk81
12-30-2007, 5:13 PM
Thorsen is correct, no one can tell if a magazine is pre-ban or not. Because you can rebuild magazines with new parts(including the bodies with post ban date codes).

Chunky_lover
01-24-2008, 6:15 PM
Remove the upper. Leave the 10rd mag in the well, it is NON-REMOVABLE. (I would, even with a BB or P-50)

The only paperwork you need, is a drivers license, vehicle registration, and proof of insurance.

I have a soft bag I carry mine in with a lock on the zippers, and I have a bb but if I leave the mag in how do I run the cable lock through the gun, I go through the mag hole and the bolt area. I have a trigger lock but it doesnt fit. Im also in a suz so I just keep it behind the back seat hidden from view. Bty the soft bag has broken zipper pulls so I use those key rings ( the type probably on your house keys) with the lock but you can just unscrew the keyring over the lock to unzip the bag.

aplinker
01-24-2008, 6:23 PM
Why is everyone so nervous?

It doesn't matter to have long guns locked up, as mentioned. Further, even for pistols, you don't need a hard case when you lock it up, just fully enclosed.

Besides, if a police officer reasonably believes you have weapons in the car it doesn't matter if they're locked up or not as he can check they're unloaded. So why worry about a locked case?

It is prudent to keep a mag in the magwell with a BB, as it makes the description of fixed magazine easier to explain.

Chunky_lover
01-24-2008, 6:27 PM
I thought there was some type of law having a gun with a lock on it when its in a vehicle, plus when you buy a new gun they make you buy a new lock thats ca approved just to leave the store. Im pretty sure the gun has to have a lock on it when transporting it in a vehicle, dont know if the case needs to be locked.

762cavalier
01-24-2008, 7:00 PM
I thought there was some type of law having a gun with a lock on it when its in a vehicle, plus when you buy a new gun they make you buy a new lock thats ca approved just to leave the store. Im pretty sure the gun has to have a lock on it when transporting it in a vehicle, dont know if the case needs to be locked.

Long guns DO NOT need to be locked up. The requirement for locking a gun are for handguns and "assault weapons". It is perfectly legal to drive around with an SKS in the front seat and a full stripper clip as long as it is not touching the gun.;)

MonsterMan
01-24-2008, 7:47 PM
Someone on Calguns was saying that Los Angeles County had different laws regarding driving with rifles in their automobile? They said that they had to be locked up while transporting a regular rifle. Is that true?

Can county's have different laws than the State? Or does a Californian need to follow only State Law?

If it is true, I would like to be pointed to the actual law where I can read it myself.

ohsmily
01-24-2008, 8:10 PM
If they are hi-cap make certain they are pre-ban. There are ways to tell the difference in most cases.


No, there is no way to tell, unless the magazines simply weren't in production at the time of the ban (i.e. springfield XD magazines) and even then it will be difficult to prove that you illegally imported them, etc.

Josh3239
01-24-2008, 9:30 PM
I keep the laws in my rifle bag printed straight from the DOJ's website and highlighted the important stuff, stuff like a definition of a magazine locked rifle. I figure that LE will take it more seriously if he sees that it came from the CA DOJ's website

Mac
01-25-2008, 5:45 AM
I don't understand why you guys are stressing over the open magwell issue if it has a BB?

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

1. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:


With a BB it is NOT detachable except with the use of a tool.

Why try to present it as a permanently fixed mag to LEO inspection. So it has an open magwell - so what? The BB
makes it non detachable except with a tool = Legal.

Or the other long thread "LEO vs OLL" I read where the OP
says to the LEO he either uses a tool or breaks it open and top loads it, which is BS if you have a BB. Everyone drops the mag with a tool.

I understand you would want to stack everything in your favor, when conversing with LEO's to show compliance but the deception seems pointless since it is not detachable other than with a tool. Open magwell or not. Easy to show and tell a LEO by inserting the mag and trying to detach it without a tool. Why the subterfuge?

EOD Guy
01-25-2008, 7:38 AM
Long guns DO NOT need to be locked up. The requirement for locking a gun are for handguns and "assault weapons". It is perfectly legal to drive around with an SKS in the front seat and a full stripper clip as long as it is not touching the gun.;)

Only if you never come within 1,000 feet of a school. Federal law then requires that all firearms be in a locked container. There are a few exceptions, including one if you have a CCW.

On the other hand, I doubt if local law enforcement is interested in enforcing Federal laws.

Josh3239
01-25-2008, 2:55 PM
I don't understand why you guys are stressing over the open magwell issue if it has a BB?

Because a large amount of LE don't know the laws and most would probably think your doing something illegal just by having an AR15. More and more LE are learning about fixed magazines (a la the Carbon 15, FAB 10, Prince 50) which incorporate no attachable magazine. Bullet buttons are still new to California. But lets not forget that AR15s and lowers are still being confiscated by LE and the DOJ. I am not going to point fingers, but there have been plenty of people with legal firearms who have been harrassed, jailed, and spent much money to prove their innocence.

Is it legal? Absolutely. Is there a difference between an arrest and a convictions? Absolutely. Best not to poke the bear. Besides, showing a paper that says the law on it could make a LE simply think it is wrong, made up, or lies.

Heck, we still have members joining who think an open magwell is an AW. Your average Californian thinks an AK47 is illegal to own. Best to do the safest route. Sure its legal, but that doesn't mean you should necessarily flaunt it. Personally, if a magazine in the rifle makes me even .000000001% safer from an arrest, why not do it???

grammaton76
01-25-2008, 3:06 PM
Why try to present it as a permanently fixed mag to LEO inspection. So it has an open magwell - so what? The BB
makes it non detachable except with a tool = Legal.

When dealing with an LEO at a traffic stop, you are most likely talking to a guy who gets argued with over 50% of the time and hears "...flow of traffic..." all day long. Statistically speaking, probably 80% of the time someone tries to argue with an LEO that they aren't breaking the law, they are.

So, do you want to spend a lot of time with the LEO trying to convince him you're not in that 80%? Or do you want to keep an empty magazine in the magwell while transporting the weapon?

I personally am perfectly happy to keep an empty mag in the magwell. (corrected from earlier)

Josh3239
01-25-2008, 3:09 PM
So, do you want to spend a lot of time with the LEO trying to convince him you're not in that 80%...I personally am perfectly happy to keep an empty magwell in the weapon.

The LEO does get argued with all the time and deals with lots of scumbags. I am doubtful you'll convince him.

And I think you meant "perfectly happy to keep an empty magazine in the weapons magwell", yes? ;)

grammaton76
01-25-2008, 4:20 PM
The LEO does get argued with all the time and deals with lots of scumbags. I am doubtful you'll convince him.

And I think you meant "perfectly happy to keep an empty magazine in the weapons magwell", yes? ;)

Erm, yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry! :) But yes, the lack of convincing is exactly what I was getting at.

bohoki
01-25-2008, 4:29 PM
Erm, yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry! :) But yes, the lack of convincing is exactly what I was getting at.

yes if you keep an empty 10 rounder in it then it makes it harder for them to insert a detachable magazine

(enough confusion there for good faith excuse from the leo to haul you in)

Mac
01-25-2008, 4:40 PM
So, do you want to spend a lot of time with the LEO trying to convince him you're not in that 80%? Or do you want to keep an empty magazine in the magwell while transporting the weapon?

I personally am perfectly happy to keep an empty magwell in the weapon.

And transporting a loaded firearm is a no no - right. How are you going to show the LEO that it is indeed unloaded?
Cuz with that mag in it it sure looks that way. Actuate the BB and drop the mag? I would not argue anything. I would simply say "The mag is not detachable unless a tool is used." And show him/her. Sort of the same thing if they ask if it's loaded. You or they have to prove it is not . Calmly.
6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other I guess.

I know one thing - no one is searching my car without a warrant. Then the dog and pony show starts.
As far as getting pulled over in a traffic stop - I don't fit the profile. Not really worried about it.

grammaton76
01-25-2008, 4:48 PM
And transporting a loaded firearm is a no no - right. How are you going to show the LEO that it is indeed unloaded? Cuz with that mag in it it sure looks that way. Actuate the BB and drop the mag?

Easy, tell him to hinge it open like any flop-top AR. A lot of folks transport empty mags in their magwells because they don't want case lint getting into their actions. And, it's a lot more concrete to explain an unloaded and locked-in magazine to an LEO checking on loaded status, than it is to explain an empty magwell to one who's wondering about detachable status.

I would not argue anything. I would simply say "The mag is not detachable unless a tool is used." And show him/her. Sort of the same thing if they ask if it's loaded. You or they have to prove it is not . Calmly.
6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other I guess.

The difference here is that "loaded" and "unloaded" are absolutely rock-solid, easy to prove status's. "Fixed" vs "detachable" can involve wading into PC (and moreover, seeing the empty magwell may cause the DOJ's memos to load in his/her head), and an LEO will just haul you in rather than try to argue it.

Given the task of explaining "fixed" or "unloaded", I would much rather explain or demonstrate "unloaded". :)

Josh3239
01-25-2008, 4:51 PM
And transporting a loaded firearm is a no no - right. How are you going to show the LEO that it is indeed unloaded?
Cuz with that mag in it it sure looks that way.

Explain that it is a fixed mag and lock the bolt back. 1) the bolt won't lock back if a round is fed 2) by locking the bolt back you can see there are no cartridges in the magazine or chamber.

The point is that while this is legal you best not flaunt it because people have been harrassed and/or arrested for off list lower receivers, off list rifles, no evil features - detachable mags, and fixed magazines. It is foolish to believe that won't happen to you just because you have some papers that you claim to LE is law and that you will convince him.

Think about this, how many criminals get arrested and plead not guilty? How many say to the officer that they didn't do anything? I am guessing most, in other words you won't be that different from the real criminals.

In the end it is perfectly legal and if you do feel safe doing it, then by all means do it. Just keep in mind that by leaving the magazine in you can save much time and money.

Mac
01-25-2008, 5:09 PM
I did not mention any papers/paperwork?
hmm now I'm back to that uneasy feeling about OLL's.

Since I reg'd my weapons in 2k, it's all academic to me.
Too bad. I was getting ready to build after much research here and at Arfcom. Guess I'm back on the fence now.

Jax
01-26-2008, 3:35 AM
Thorsen is correct, no one can tell if a magazine is pre-ban or not. Because you can rebuild magazines with new parts(including the bodies with post ban date codes).


Careful on your logic. I can prove 100% a mag has never been rebuilt even if that mag has been disassembled and reassembled several times.

aplinker
01-26-2008, 4:15 AM
I'll bite. Tell me how.

Are you willing to bet $10,000 you're right?

Careful on your logic. I can prove 100% a mag has never been rebuilt even if that mag has been disassembled and reassembled several times.

Diablo
01-26-2008, 7:34 AM
I'll bite. Tell me how.

Are you willing to bet $10,000 you're right?


Tag for outcome and information.

Stormfeather
01-26-2008, 2:43 PM
Careful on your logic. I can prove 100% a mag has never been rebuilt even if that mag has been disassembled and reassembled several times.


How about careful on your statements? Ive got 20 mags, and you wont be able to tell me which ones are rebuilt and which ones arent. I got $10000 on it too.

boltstop
01-26-2008, 3:31 PM
I'm confused now. If you need to keep an empty mag in the magwell while
transporting the gun, how am I supposed to load it at the range?

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 4:04 PM
Removable magazines only work on bullet buttons. You don't need to keep the mag inside or outside while transporting on a bullet button. It is smarter to keep the mag inside the magwell to avoid special attention when not shooting.

If you are using a lock like the Prince 50, you must "shotgun" or "scissor" your rifle open and load the mag.

boltstop
01-26-2008, 6:46 PM
If I am at the range with my bullet button AR and (let's say) a cop is
there. I remove the mag with the tool to reload. Isn't that the same
situation as driving with no mag in the magwell?

aplinker
01-26-2008, 7:18 PM
OK, let's start with this...

I've been at ranges many, many times with my Cali-legal OLLs when LEO were present. I've never been hassled, confronted, etc.

The point of keeping a mag in the magwell is to help avoid extra explanations. You can simply say, "it's not a detachable magazine," and stop there.

With the magazine out of the magwell you would need to explain the definition of detachable and perhaps demonstrate. It's simply advisable and easier to explain with the mag in there.

It doesn't change the fact that the firearm itself is INCAPABLE OF ACCEPTING A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE.

Ease of explanation is nice in a situation on the side of the road. At a range, LEO are in a different situation. They're much more relaxed.

If I am at the range with my bullet button AR and (let's say) a cop is
there. I remove the mag with the tool to reload. Isn't that the same
situation as driving with no mag in the magwell?

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 7:28 PM
OK, let's start with this...

I've been at ranges many, many times with my Cali-legal OLLs when LEO were present. I've never been hassled, confronted, etc.

The point of keeping a mag in the magwell is to help avoid extra explanations. You can simply say, "it's not a detachable magazine," and stop there.

With the magazine out of the magwell you would need to explain the definition of detachable and perhaps demonstrate. It's simply advisable and easier to explain with the mag in there.

It doesn't change the fact that the firearm itself is INCAPABLE OF ACCEPTING A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE.

Ease of explanation is nice in a situation on the side of the road. At a range, LEO are in a different situation. They're much more relaxed.

:iagree:

Look, this isn't a discussion about what is legal or illegal. It is a discussion about what is smart and will get little attention from LE. Driving around with an OLL and no magazine in the rifle could possibly earn you a discussion with LE about whether your rifle is an AW. Heck, driving around with an AR15 is a risk in it of it self.

Is it likely a cop will bother you for having an AR15? No. Is it likely a cop will bother you if the magazine is out of the well on a Bullet Button? No. But it is all possible.

All of this is personal preference. Personally, I keep the magazine in the well when I am driving around. It is in a locked container in my trunk. It is not law for a rifle to be in a locked container in the trunk. That is my choice and I feel it is best for me personally. I am 100% fine shooting my AR and dropping the mag at the range. However, when I see uniformed LE my AR goes in my gun case. I am not doing anything illegal, but I am not interested in a LEO even looking at my AR. Many people are don't feel that way, that is just me personally. You guys have to do what makes you comfortable.

odysseus
01-26-2008, 7:37 PM
How about use a monsterman so you have no pistol grip, and swap mags all day long at the public range?

Jax
01-26-2008, 8:50 PM
Have you ever heard of "tool Marks" this is how LE can prove a spent casing came from a gun. The ejector/ chamber/ firing pin leaves a "finger print".

This can be applied to a mag. Based on the wear marks, type of metal, metal stock, corrosion (or lack of), dis-similar corrosion aging and stress life aging of a spring, I can date the mag.

Based on all that in a lab, I can disassemble a BM mag (stamped 2 06), and tell you with if the spring, follower and floor plate are consistant with those BM were using to make mags in 2006. There are several mags produced where I can with 100% certainty tell you it was made prior to 2000, and also several I can say were produced after 2000.

this is a costly task, but just something to keep in mind.

BTW I have some coopers without springs/followers I may sell...:D

aplinker
01-26-2008, 9:49 PM
As I figured, you're completely unaware of CA law. You must also be a fan of CSI or some other senseless TV forensics drivel. ;)

Any magazines owned prior to the ban can be rebuilt entirely from new parts. Thus there is absolutely no way to tell if a magazine is pre-ban.

Have you ever heard of "tool Marks" this is how LE can prove a spent casing came from a gun. The ejector/ chamber/ firing pin leaves a "finger print".

This can be applied to a mag. Based on the wear marks, type of metal, metal stock, corrosion (or lack of), dis-similar corrosion aging and stress life aging of a spring, I can date the mag.

Based on all that in a lab, I can disassemble a BM mag (stamped 2 06), and tell you with if the spring, follower and floor plate are consistant with those BM were using to make mags in 2006. There are several mags produced where I can with 100% certainty tell you it was made prior to 2000, and also several I can say were produced after 2000.

this is a costly task, but just something to keep in mind.

BTW I have some coopers without springs/followers I may sell...:D

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 9:56 PM
How about use a monsterman so you have no pistol grip, and swap mags all day long at the public range?

Me personally, I love my evil features. If I wanted detachable mags and no evil features I'd get myself something like an M1A. Besides, it only slows your reloads by what 4 seconds?

sleepur606
01-26-2008, 9:57 PM
As I figured, you're completely unaware of CA law. You must also be a fan of CSI or some other senseless TV forensics drivel. ;)

Any magazines owned prior to the ban can be rebuilt entirely from new parts. Thus there is absolutely no way to tell if a magazine is pre-ban.

I have to agree. Even if you were able to use wear marks to date a magazine used in an AR, whether OLL or not, you'd only be able to tell how "used" it was, not how old. If you gave a mag to a 12 year old in 1998 and he didn't use it but four (4) times up to this point, and gave a magazine to your best friend one year ago, a friend who goes out shooting his AR all the time, you'd be hard pressed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the mag given to the 12 year old was not newer, assuming there were no date stamps.
Along with that, if a person were to buy PMag bodies to reassemble their legal pre-ban mags, and another were to buy disassembled mags and assemble them into 30 round mags, how would you be able to prove which was legal and which was not?

I think someone is out $10,000...and it sure aint me.

Later
Chris

technique
01-26-2008, 10:03 PM
Me personally, I love my evil features. If I wanted detachable mags and no evil features I'd get myself something like an M1A. Besides, it only slows your reloads by what 4 seconds?

I love my monsterman. I dont think it slows your reloads, it just takes practice.:D

Jax
01-26-2008, 10:07 PM
I was talking about PROVING a mag stamped 2 06, was never rebuilt.

You are correct a mag made 12 years ago isnt a problem.. a mag made 12 years ago with new parts isnt a problem......

.its the guy who thinks he can buy a BM mag stamped 2 07, and just tell LEO its a rebuilt mag...not going to work...it would take them 1 day in the lab to PROVE it was not rebuilt and is FACTORY original.

So when someone says, "they can't tell ....dont worry" I say..."WATCH that logic my friend..it may lead to trouble that isnt worth it."

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 10:13 PM
I dont think it slows your reloads, it just takes practice.:D

The bullet button doesn't slow your reloads?

Ech0Sierra
01-26-2008, 10:22 PM
And a glove with a pin on the index finger. :D

technique
01-26-2008, 10:26 PM
The bullet button doesn't slow your reloads?

Was that a question or a statement? I didn't say the bb slowed reloading, i can reload with my monsterman in way less than 4 seconds. I believe you said it slows you down by 4 seconds. standing, kneeling, prone, and on the move, all in less than 4 seconds. I said doing that with a monsterman just takes a little getting used to, but just practice.

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 10:28 PM
Ohhh, I was talking about the Bullet button. Running a bullet button slows your reloads down by about 4 seconds. No big deal for me.

And a glove with a pin on the index finger. :D

That would definetly make it as fast as a featureless.

Jax
01-26-2008, 10:31 PM
The bullet button doesn't slow your reloads?

He is correct, BB will not slow down the replacement of a mag if you know how to do it quickly.....

what does slow down that swap, is the CALIFORNIA LAW, which when read properly means you must separate the upper from the lower and remove the pistol grip BEFORE you can remove the mag from the mag well.

For those people in other states they can use a BB if they want and do not have to take the gun apart before swapping mags.

Which is why when I come to California, I will NEVER have an empty mag well in my BB equiped AR. I ( will soon ) have a MMG AR, so my 30rd mags make my empty mag well BB AR ILLEGAL.

That being said, I could reload my BM top loader in seconds..so it really doesnt slow you down that much.

J_Rock
01-26-2008, 10:34 PM
Its OK(read:legal) to drop your mag with a BB you know.

USN CHIEF
01-26-2008, 10:36 PM
:lurk5:

Ech0Sierra
01-26-2008, 10:41 PM
:popcorn::lurk5::shifty:

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 10:44 PM
He is correct, BB will not slow down the replacement of a mag if you know how to do it quickly.....

First off he talking about the Monsterman grip doesn't slow his reloads. Secondly, unless you have tiny, pointy object attached to your finger the bullet button definetly slows your reloads. So unless you have a tiny, pointy tool attached, taped, or secured in some way I am calling BS on the idea that a bullet button absolutely does not in any way slow your reloads.

what does slow down that swap, is the CALIFORNIA LAW, which when read properly means you must separate the upper from the lower and remove the pistol grip BEFORE you can remove the mag from the mag well.

Not if you have a bullet button.

Which is why when I come to California, I will NEVER have an empty mag well in my BB equiped AR. I ( will soon ) have a MMG AR, so my 30rd mags make my empty mag well BB AR ILLEGAL.

You do realize you can have an empty mag well with BOTH a bullet button or a featureless right?

That being said, I could reload my BM top loader in seconds..so it really doesnt slow you down that much.

Uhhhhhhhhhh.... that is exactly what I said. If reloading a toploader takes you seconds doesn't an estimate of 4 seconds sound accurate??? Hell, after I go empty it takes me about 4 seconds to pick up my punch, actuate the bullet button and drop the mag, and put in a new one. Do you consider 4 seconds "that much"???

USN CHIEF
01-26-2008, 10:46 PM
This is getting goood...

technique
01-26-2008, 10:49 PM
This is getting goood...

real good!

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 10:49 PM
Glad we are entertaining you Chief :D

technique
01-26-2008, 10:51 PM
Josh3239... i like how you roll!

Jax
01-26-2008, 10:54 PM
First off he talking about the Monsterman grip doesn't slow his reloads. Secondly, unless you have tiny, pointy object attached to your finger the bullet button definetly slows your reloads. So unless you have a tiny, pointy tool attached, taped, or secured in some way I am calling BS on the idea that a bullet button absolutely does not in any way slow your reloads.



Not if you have a bullet button.



You do realize you can have an empty mag well with BOTH a bullet button or a featureless right?



Uhhhhhhhhhh.... that is exactly what I said. If reloading a toploader takes you seconds doesn't an estimate of 4 seconds sound accurate??? Hell, after I go empty it takes me about 4 seconds to pick up my punch, actuate the bullet button and drop the mag, and put in a new one. Do you consider 4 seconds "that much"???


Are you telling me, its your understanding I can have several loaded 10rd mags, and just use a tool to swap then out at the range.... I dont think that is the case.

Its my understanding of the law...and please go easy on me, since I am not a CA res yet...that it is ILLEGAL to detach a 10rd mag from a weapon with a pistol grip...PERIOD. The second that mag is removed the weapon is illegal if the upper has a FH, or VFG or if the lower has a pistol grip on it.

simply using a tool to swap mags is not legal under the law, ,,,,,its legal to have to use a tool to remove the mag.... there is a BIG differance.

aplinker
01-26-2008, 10:56 PM
You're definitely not up on CA law. I would suggest you read a lot more before posting. This post of yours is full of misinformation, along with your statement about mag rebuilds.

He is correct, BB will not slow down the replacement of a mag if you know how to do it quickly.....

what does slow down that swap, is the CALIFORNIA LAW, which when read properly means you must separate the upper from the lower and remove the pistol grip BEFORE you can remove the mag from the mag well.

For those people in other states they can use a BB if they want and do not have to take the gun apart before swapping mags.

Which is why when I come to California, I will NEVER have an empty mag well in my BB equiped AR. I ( will soon ) have a MMG AR, so my 30rd mags make my empty mag well BB AR ILLEGAL.

That being said, I could reload my BM top loader in seconds..so it really doesnt slow you down that much.

technique
01-26-2008, 10:57 PM
Are you telling me, its your understanding I can have several loaded 10rd mags, and just use a tool to swap then out at the range.... I dont think that is the case.

Its my understanding of the law...and please go easy on me, since I am not a CA res yet...that it is ILLEGAL to detach a 10rd mag from a weapon with a pistol grip...PERIOD. The second that mag is removed the weapon is illegal if the upper has a FH, or VFG or if the lower has a pistol grip on it.

simply using a tool to swap mags is not legal under the law, ,,,,,its legal to have to use a tool to remove the mag.... there is a BIG differance.

Its readily attachable, not detachable! And you may use a tool.

Josh3239
01-26-2008, 10:57 PM
Dam, we need the CalGuns FAQs updated. Anyone else wanna take this?

I'll just leave it at this: http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=265

aplinker
01-26-2008, 10:58 PM
Please read over the 1000+ threads on the bullet button.

The BB renders the firearm incapable of accepting detachable mags. You are required to use a tool to remove the mag and can do so to swap for a loaded one once one has been emptied. Mind you ONLY 10rd mags can be used.

That you have to use a tool to remove the mag EVERY TIME means it's not capable of accepting a detachable magazine. It's perfectly legal.

Try reading the "newbie" thread here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=56818

If you're unfamiliar with CA law and not a CA resident, why are you giving advice and trying to answer questions as though you know the law?



Are you telling me, its your understanding I can have
several loaded 10rd mags, and just use a tool to swap then out at the range.... I dont think that is the case.

Its my understanding of the law...and please go easy on me, since I am not a CA res yet...that it is ILLEGAL to detach a 10rd mag from a weapon with a pistol grip...PERIOD. The second that mag is removed the weapon is illegal if the upper has a FH, or VFG or if the lower has a pistol grip on it.

simply using a tool to swap mags is not legal under the law, ,,,,,its legal to have to use a tool to remove the mag.... there is a BIG differance.

jacques
01-26-2008, 11:02 PM
I was talking about PROVING a mag stamped 2 06, was never rebuilt.

You are correct a mag made 12 years ago isnt a problem.. a mag made 12 years ago with new parts isnt a problem......

.its the guy who thinks he can buy a BM mag stamped 2 07, and just tell LEO its a rebuilt mag...not going to work...it would take them 1 day in the lab to PROVE it was not rebuilt and is FACTORY original.

So when someone says, "they can't tell ....dont worry" I say..."WATCH that logic my friend..it may lead to trouble that isnt worth it."

My Son was telling me that the other day "...nobody could tell the difference..."

I was thinking today that there must be some kind of "date stamp" or "Lot stamp that could easily be tracible through the manufacture as to when the part was produced.

aplinker
01-26-2008, 11:11 PM
This is getting really redundant...

pre-ban mags can be rebuilt entirely out of new parts, any new parts. As such it would be impossible to tell the difference between a pre-ban rebuilt magazine built all out of new parts and a magazine that's new.

Again, please reference the newbie thread I referenced above.

It's an unenforceable law.

However, I do not recommend or suggest circumventing it. I'm merely pointing out how things are.



My Son was telling me that the other day "...nobody could tell the difference..."

I was thinking today that there must be some kind of "date stamp" or "Lot stamp that could easily be tracible through the manufacture as to when the part was produced.

Jax
01-26-2008, 11:30 PM
You're definitely not up on CA law. I would suggest you read a lot more before posting. This post of yours is full of misinformation, along with your statement about mag rebuilds.

First off, Yes I am not up on how you guys are reading the BB laws. I read then quite differently, and will reread all information again.

on the second point, you are very wrong. If you think you can buy a brand new 30rd mag (that has a date stamp) in some other state, and bring it to CA and just tell people you rebuilt a pre-ban you owned...you are wrong to believe that will hold up under lab testing and an LEO investigation.

I really dont care what you do. Your life choices are yours. Will the DA spend 1000s of dollars proving what you did just to get a single lone felony...probably not. Will the DA spend 10,000s of dollars proving criminals are doing that...you bet they will. Do not underestimate the power of a high profile case, where the DA has a chance to be in the spotlight and make a name for themself.

aplinker
01-26-2008, 11:38 PM
You're not understanding the law.

There are no "bullet button" laws. There are the PC codes for assault weapons and the definition of a detachable magazine. Based on those it's completely legal. You need to read the newbie FAQ. The legality and use is clearly laid out.

As far as mags go, at no point did I suggest to anyone to break the law and build illegal ones. I said that there is absolutely no way a LEO, forensic expert, anyone can tell the difference between a rebuilt magazine and one that isn't, as parts from new magazines can be used in rebuilds. Your far-fetched flights of fancy are just that. Additionally, it won't be long before hi-cap mags are available via legal avenues of sale. The whole law is an unenforceable sham.



First off, Yes I am not up on how you guys are reading the BB laws. I read then quite differently, and will reread all information again.

on the second point, you are very wrong. If you think you can buy a brand new 30rd mag (that has a date stamp) in some other state, and bring it to CA and just tell people you rebuilt a pre-ban you owned...you are wrong to believe that will hold up under lab testing and an LEO investigation.

I really dont care what you do. Your life choices are yours. Will the DA spend 1000s of dollars proving what you did just to get a single lone felony...probably not. Will the DA spend 10,000s of dollars proving criminals are doing that...you bet they will. Do not underestimate the power of a high profile case, where the DA has a chance to be in the spotlight and make a name for themself.

technique
01-26-2008, 11:38 PM
First off, Yes I am not up on how you guys are reading the BB laws. I read then quite differently, and will reread all information again.

on the second point, you are very wrong. If you think you can buy a brand new 30rd mag (that has a date stamp) in some other state, and bring it to CA and just tell people you rebuilt a pre-ban you owned...you are wrong to believe that will hold up under lab testing and an LEO investigation.

I really dont care what you do. Your life choices are yours. Will the DA spend 1000s of dollars proving what you did just to get a single lone felony...probably not. Will the DA spend 10,000s of dollars proving criminals are doing that...you bet they will. Do not underestimate the power of a high profile case, where the DA has a chance to be in the spotlight and make a name for themself.

You can buy replacement parts, individually from another state if you like, and replace the parts on your pre ban. That is very legal! even if they have a current date stamp.

technique
01-26-2008, 11:40 PM
You're not understanding the law.

First off, at no point did I suggest to anyone to break it. I said that there is absolutely no way a LEO, forensic expert, anyone can tell the difference between a rebuilt magazine and one that isn't, as parts from new magazines can be used in rebuilds. Your far-fetched flights of fancy are just that.

On the bullet button issue, you need to read the newbie FAQ. The legality and use is clearly laid out.

Quick draw!!!

odysseus
01-26-2008, 11:45 PM
Me personally, I love my evil features. If I wanted detachable mags and no evil features I'd get myself something like an M1A. Besides, it only slows your reloads by what 4 seconds?

I guess that depends if you have pre-ban mags or not. I have a registered AW from back in the day and pre-ban mags, so I am not locked into 10 rnds, and wish to use them on an OLL build.

My main question intended, was if people felt more comfortable at a public range with a MMG (obviously with no features) than doing the whole BB thing around LE. The MMG is certainly legal just like the M1A, even with pre-ban mags - or I would hope so having not heard anyone being challenged with this config (might have missed it).

Jax
01-26-2008, 11:47 PM
My Son was telling me that the other day "...nobody could tell the difference..."

I was thinking today that there must be some kind of "date stamp" or "Lot stamp that could easily be tracible through the manufacture as to when the part was produced.


its a lot more then that. The metal used to make the spring is not the same as the metal used last year, or even last month in some cases. the follower is bought through several vendors, so If I have a mag stamped 2 07. it would take about 1 day to prove the spring and follower were also from the same lot of parts that were used to make mags on 2 07 from factory.

mix that with a quick check of the wear of the spring, corrosion and a couple un-answered questions..like "ok who sold you the rebuild kit".."Oh you said you rebuilt a 1990 Adventure line mag....but the spring and follower are brand new made from new stock bought by the manufacturer of the mag last year..."

What they are talking about is there is no way to prove I didnt
1)replace a bad spring last week.
2)replace a bad follower last month
3)replace a bad case last year.
all on the same mag. they are correct...as long as that is what you did.

A good DA can sell poop to a stupid jury...you gonna risk a felony conviction on..."they can't tell" :rolleyes:

aplinker
01-26-2008, 11:54 PM
Can you please stop spreading misinformation. You are clearly not aware of California law.

ALL of the parts of a pre-ban magazine can be replaced with new parts that were made today. In other words, all parts of a preban could me replaced to make a magazine that's entirely made of brand new parts. As a result there is no way to tell the difference between a new magazine and one that has been rebuilt. PERIOD.

I provided links for you that clearly lay this out. You should spend your time reading and educating yourself on California law before moving here rather than posting your lack of understanding on this forum.


its a lot more then that. The metal used to make the spring is not the same as the metal used last year, or even last month in some cases. the follower is bought through several vendors, so If I have a mag stamped 2 07. it would take about 1 day to prove the spring and follower were also from the same lot of parts that were used to make mags on 2 07 from factory.

mix that with a quick check of the wear of the spring, corrosion and a couple un-answered questions..like "ok who sold you the rebuild kit".."Oh you said you rebuilt a 1990 Adventure line mag....but the spring and follower are brand new made from new stock bought by the manufacturer of the mag last year..."

What they are talking about is there is no way to prove I didnt
1)replace a bad spring last week.
2)replace a bad follower last month
3)replace a bad case last year.
all on the same mag. they are correct...as long as that is what you did.

A good DA can sell poop to a stupid jury...you gonna risk a felony conviction on..."they can't tell" :rolleyes:


Odysseus, I feel equally comfortable with both. Both configurations are completely legal. I do like being able to drop mags, though. If i were to pick one, I'd rather have full function over full-featured. I can live without a PG and collapsible stock. That being said, for range toys, the BB is more fun, as features make it nice.

I guess that depends if you have pre-ban mags or not. I have a registered AW from back in the day and pre-ban mags, so I am not locked into 10 rnds, and wish to use them on an OLL build.

My main question intended, was if people felt more comfortable at a public range with a MMG (obviously with no features) than doing the whole BB thing around LE. The MMG is certainly legal just like the M1A, even with pre-ban mags - or I would hope so having not heard anyone being challenged with this config (might have missed it).

Jax
01-26-2008, 11:58 PM
You can buy replacement parts, individually from another state if you like, and replace the parts on your pre ban. That is very legal! even if they have a current date stamp.


Ya I have a BM stamped 2 06 infront of me I will sell to anyone in CA...thats not the point. I also have about 4 or 5 coopers with no date, and a box old Colts and a box of Okays, I have atleast 10 Adventure lines still in storage in CA. I bought my first AR in 1986. I have plenty of parts to make rebuilds from.

The point is if you think your "you can't tell the difference" is going to hold up...you are betting a felony conviction on stupidity and ignorance of science.

technique
01-27-2008, 12:12 AM
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/forum/popcorn.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

aplinker
01-27-2008, 12:13 AM
1.) rebuilding old magazines entirely out of new parts is completely legal

2.) there are no laws regarding the possession of ANY magazine

3.) I would never imply anyone should skirt the law.

All of these statements are what I've said and are 100% true. Stop inferring nonsense.

I'm willing to bet my understanding of science far surpasses yours.

You still didn't take my challenge. Are you willing to bet $10,000 that you can tell the difference between a rebuilt and a new magazine?

One last thing, if you're in CA now and are offering that magazine built in 2006 for sale, you have just committed a felony.


Ya I have a BM stamped 2 06 infront of me I will sell to anyone in CA...thats not the point. I also have about 4 or 5 coopers with no date, and a box old Colts and a box of Okays, I have atleast 10 Adventure lines still in storage in CA. I bought my first AR in 1986. I have plenty of parts to make rebuilds from.

The point is if you think your "you can't tell the difference" is going to hold up...you are betting a felony conviction on stupidity and ignorance of science.

technique
01-27-2008, 12:20 AM
bwiese.bwiese.bwiese...http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/gen053.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Jax
01-27-2008, 12:57 AM
1.) rebuilding old magazines entirely out of new parts is completely legal TRUE

2.) there are no laws regarding the possession of ANY magazine FALSE

3.) I would never imply anyone should skirt the law. "then why say, Dont worry no one can tell"

All of these statements are what I've said and are 100% true. Stop inferring nonsense.

I'm willing to bet my understanding of science far surpasses yours. No way it does, you dont even undderstand the first thing about manufacturing science

You still didn't take my challenge. Are you willing to bet $10,000 that you can tell the difference between a rebuilt and a new magazine? You dont have $10.00 let alone 10,000.

One last thing, if you're in CA now and are offering that magazine built in 2006 for sale, you have just committed a felony.

I live in Wa and I am moving to CA. and it not against the law for me to sell a BM 30rd mag case dated 2 06 to anyone. It is against the law for me to offer for sale a 30rd mag complete with or without date stamp made before or after 2000...I do not skirt the laws with ignorant loop hole redneck double talk like , "dont worry..no one will know."

I have been in the business of metallurgic quality control for over 25 years. If a mags company would allow me access to their QC records you would be $10,000 lighter in the wallet...but they wouldn't...but they would for a DA..which means you lose your 2A rights...or do I have to explain what a felony conviction means to you. If you really think buying random springs and followers to put in a mag is the same as buying a factory original newly manufactured mag...you are wrong.

You have to make a mag the same as a factory original you have to:
a)Find out what vendor they were using for the spring at the time of the date stamp.
b) do the same thing for the follower.

So if I need to do this to make a 100% copy of the original mag....do you think a DA wouldnt be able to tell if a mag you SAY is rebuilt is really original.

Do you understand the chances of you buying the same freaking stock spring and follower on line...that came with the mag case you have..the chances are well over what it would take for a jury to say you are lying.

I have known a guy who ripped off Colt by rebuilding the Mags and saying they were defective...Colt didnt test the parts...a DA would since they are trying to prove you are lying...do you see the difference now???

How about sending $10,000 worth of Colt mags back and tell them they are defective...do you think Colt would do some basic investigating before they sent you $10,000 of their stuff? They would, and you would be sent a letter alone with the bad mags stating they have proven the internal parts are not the same as the ones they were using during the time frame the mag bodies were made...therefore the mags have been rebuilt and the defect warranty is voided.

You are the one spreading lies. You are the one offering bad advice. My advice was simple...."dont let your logic of no one will know cause you to make a bad choice."

Jax
01-27-2008, 1:20 AM
Oh yeah I just found this on CALGUNS.NET front page.

Please tell me how this allows me to use a "tool" to swap mags at the ready line WITHOUT first removing the upper and pistol grip...Am I reading this correct.....plz advise...

For AR type rifles – since the serialized receiver is separate from the barrelled action (“barrelled upper”)
– one should not attempt to use a .22 rimfire, pump-action, or bolt action upper assembly in combination
with a pistol-gripped receiver with an open magazine well that can accept centerfire magazines. It isn’t
clear if this would, or would not, be regarded as an assault weapon – especially since an off-list AR-type
receiver with just a pistol grip attached could well be regarded as one. This is an issue that may have to
wend its way through courts, so these configurations should be avoided.
To be legally safe in California, an off-list AR15-type lower receiver should never have a pistol grip or
telestock, etc. attached unless and until a nondetachable (fixed) 10-rd magazine is already affixed.
When repairing or dismantling such a rifle, features such as pistol grips, telestocks, etc. must first be
removed before removing the fixed 10-rd magazine.

aplinker
01-27-2008, 1:29 AM
First off, let's start with your statement that there are laws regarding possession of any magazine. Please, show me penal code that says this. There isn't any. The ONLY things that are illegal are selling, offering for sale, importing, giving, etc. There is no mention of buying or possession.

I NEVER said "don't worry no one can tell." I said the law is ridiculous and unenforceable because there's no way to tell the difference between a magazine that's new or rebuilt if EVERY PIECE can be replaced. Because everything has been replaced there's no basis to be able to tell the difference. Besides, the crime is not in the possession, but in those things stated above.

You are completely wrong about what is needed to rebuild a broken magazine.

I can buy a disassembled parts kit from a brand new PMAG from Magpul, disassemble one of my broken prebans and then reassemble it using all new parts from Magpul. How can you tell that that mag is or is not a preban? Again, you haven't read one bit of the law or the explanations I posted for you to read. The rebuilt magazine in no way has to be a copy of the original. You're completely misinformed.

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely 100% WRONG on every count of your understanding of me and the law.

The ONLY thing you've said that's good advice is "don't break the law," but really that statement goes without saying since the entire point of this forum is to comply with the law.

I live in Wa and I am moving to CA. and it not against the law for me to sell a BM 30rd mag case dated 2 06 to anyone. It is against the law for me to offer for sale a 30rd mag complete with or without date stamp made before or after 2000...I do not skirt the laws with ignorant loop hole redneck double talk like , "dont worry..no one will know."

I have been in the business of metallurgic quality control for over 25 years. If a mags company would allow me access to their QC records you would be $10,000 lighter in the wallet...but they wouldn't...but they would for a DA..which means you lose your 2A rights...or do I have to explain what a felony conviction means to you. If you really think buying random springs and followers to put in a mag is the same as buying a factory original newly manufactured mag...you are wrong.

You have to make a mag the same as a factory original you have to:
a)Find out what vendor they were using for the spring at the time of the date stamp.
b) do the same thing for the follower.

So if I need to do this to make a 100% copy of the original mag....do you think a DA wouldnt be able to tell if a mag you SAY is rebuilt is really original.

Do you understand the chances of you buying the same freaking stock spring and follower on line...that came with the mag case you have..the chances are well over what it would take for a jury to say you are lying.

I have known a guy who ripped off Colt by rebuilding the Mags and saying they were defective...Colt didnt test the parts...a DA would since they are trying to prove you are lying...do you see the difference now???

How about sending $10,000 worth of Colt mags back and tell them they are defective...do you think Colt would do some basic investigating before they sent you $10,000 of their stuff? They would, and you would be sent a letter alone with the bad mags stating they have proven the internal parts are not the same as the ones they were using during the time frame the mag bodies were made...therefore the mags have been rebuilt and the defect warranty is voided.

You are the one spreading lies. You are the one offering bad advice. My advice was simple...."dont let your logic of no one will know cause you to make a bad choice."

aplinker
01-27-2008, 1:30 AM
That is a very old understanding from the days of being conservative.

The original author of that FAQ says the same.


Oh yeah I just found this on CALGUNS.NET front page.

Please tell me how this allows me to use a "tool" to swap mags at the ready line WITHOUT first removing the upper and pistol grip...Am I reading this correct.....plz advise...

For AR type rifles – since the serialized receiver is separate from the barrelled action (“barrelled upper”)
– one should not attempt to use a .22 rimfire, pump-action, or bolt action upper assembly in combination
with a pistol-gripped receiver with an open magazine well that can accept centerfire magazines. It isn’t
clear if this would, or would not, be regarded as an assault weapon – especially since an off-list AR-type
receiver with just a pistol grip attached could well be regarded as one. This is an issue that may have to
wend its way through courts, so these configurations should be avoided.
To be legally safe in California, an off-list AR15-type lower receiver should never have a pistol grip or
telestock, etc. attached unless and until a nondetachable (fixed) 10-rd magazine is already affixed.
When repairing or dismantling such a rifle, features such as pistol grips, telestocks, etc. must first be
removed before removing the fixed 10-rd magazine.

Jax
01-27-2008, 2:10 AM
I am really trying to be civil here, but you keep running this loophole on the truth.

First off, let's start with your statement that there are laws regarding possession of any magazine. Please, show me penal code that says this. There isn't any. The ONLY things that are illegal are selling, offering for sale, importing, giving, etc. There is no mention of buying or possession. It is illegal in several states to have high cap mags. In several states OWNERS of high cap mags are allowed to rebuild them...period. You can not buy a complete high cap mag, or sell a high cap mag.

I NEVER said "don't worry no one can tell." I said the law is ridiculous and unenforceable because there's no way to tell the difference between a magazine that's new or rebuilt if EVERY PIECE can be replaced. Because everything has been replaced there's no basis to be able to tell the difference. Besides, the crime is not in the possession, but in those things stated above. I am telling you for the last time...you are 100% wrong. A there isnt one manufacturer of springs that everyone useses, or follower. If an LEO suspects you have driven across state lines and bought a high cap mag, he can arrest you. During their investigation they can and will be able to prove in court the mag is in the original state as it left the factory....Do you go through a green light because you see the other cars have a red light...No. You make an assumption based on what you know. Juries will do the same after being presented with the evidence that all the parts came from the same factory, at the same time as the mag was made..... you get convicted

You are completely wrong about what is needed to rebuild a broken magazine.

I can buy a disassembled parts kit from a brand new PMAG from Magpul, disassemble one of my broken prebans and then reassemble it using all new parts from Magpul. How can you tell that that mag is or is not a preban? Again, you haven't read one bit of the law or the explanations I posted for you to read. The rebuilt magazine in no way has to be a copy of the original. You're completely misinformed. I never said you couldnt do this...in fact I have stated several time, and now have several IMs from people wanting my mag cases..I have no problem selling them disassembled since its illegal for me to bring these into CA. You can totally replace every part of a mag that you own..period..end of story...what you and I are talking about is simply saying you rebuilt it when infact its a factory original made after 2000. I will grant you this....A mag with a date stamp of 1 01, (Jan 2001) wilh all original parts would be next to impossible to say for sure it was all original. I am talking about a mag with a stamp with less then 2 years on it. That my friend is well within current technology to determine if the internal parts are the ones that came with the mag. If its a Colt, or BM...extremly likely they will have all the info on record as to who sold them the springs and the metallugic break down on the steel, the QA acceptance report on the break test with the ISO cert required. They just dont buy springs and slap them in bodies. they test them and record the findings, they also use vendors who have tested them and know what they are selling. the vendors are also required by contract with Colt and BM to certify the springs were made IAW standards using known stock. that stock is tracable to a metal vendor who has to certify what they used in the process...and on and on. Really man when you are dealing with a spring manufactures vary widely. the metal willbe completely different under testing. That differance can change month to month depending on supplys.

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely 100% WRONG on every count of your understanding of me and the law. I think I maybe wrong on my understand of you...I had a bad first impression, but I still have not seen any legal advise stating I can swap mags at the ready line using a "tool" since a detactable mag isnt the same as a attching mag.

The ONLY thing you've said that's good advice is "don't break the law," but really that statement goes without saying since the entire point of this forum is to comply with the law.

I am coming from a free state...I like my freedoms and dont take them lightly. I am moving to a state with some of the worse gun laws on the books and I have been reading for 2 weeks now. I have no intention of breaking any law.

aplinker
01-27-2008, 2:28 AM
Again, let me reiterate, this isn't about doing something illegal, but about pointing out the ridiculousness and how unenforceable the magazine law is.

There are no laws in CA regarding possession. I am not talking about anywhere else. Owners here are allowed to rebuild them from any parts, new or old. There is no requirement to maintain possession of the old parts or to prove anything about whether or not the magazines were rebuilt. That burden of proof falls on the state.

It doesn't matter what parts are used. Let's say, for example, a LEO arrives at the range and sees two people at the range. One has 5 pmags, the other has 5 pmags. Person A rebuilt 5 preban mags using pmags. Person B illegally imported 5 pmags. How can the LEO tell the difference? How could the DA? Every part in both person's magazines would be newly manufactured. It doesn't matter when those parts were manufactured. It doesn't matter what they're made of. The DA would have to prove the person who has them illegally imported or manufactured the magazines. Everything else is legal. That is why the law is ridiculous and unenforceable.

Now, about the bullet button.

I'm going to steal from Wes' explanation, cause it will help
PC 12276.1 says you cannot have a “semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following…” The main question is what does the law say a “detachable magazine” is? CCR 978.20(a)

““detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.”

If you have a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle that has a magazine that requires the use of a tool to remove, it does not meet the definition of a “detachable magazine” and as a result, the restrictions in PC 12276.1 do not apply.

OK, now... the bullet button instantly engages EVERY TIME a magazine is inserted. Without removing the bullet button, there is no way for the rifle to be capable of accepting a detachable magazine, as per the definition above. Hence, you can drop the magazine using a tool anytime or keep the magwell open when then bullet button is installed.

Alternatively, if you don't have ANY of the features listed in that PC (pistol grip, collapsible stock, flash hider, etc...), you CAN have a detachable magazine semi-automatic rifle.




I am really trying to be civil here, but you keep running this loophole on the truth.



I am coming from a free state...I like my freedoms and dont take them lightly. I am moving to a state with some of the worse gun laws on the books and I have been reading for 2 weeks now. I have no intention of breaking any law.

Jax
01-27-2008, 3:41 AM
Again, let me reiterate, this isn't about doing something illegal, but about pointing out the ridiculousness and how unenforceable the magazine law is.

There are no laws in CA regarding possession. I am not talking about anywhere else. Owners here are allowed to rebuild them from any parts, new or old. There is no requirement to maintain possession of the old parts or to prove anything about whether or not the magazines were rebuilt. That burden of proof falls on the state.

It doesn't matter what parts are used. Let's say, for example, a LEO arrives at the range and sees two people at the range. One has 5 pmags, the other has 5 pmags. Person A rebuilt 5 preban mags using pmags. Person B illegally imported 5 pmags. How can the LEO tell the difference? How could the DA? Every part in both person's magazines would be newly manufactured. It doesn't matter when those parts were manufactured. It doesn't matter what they're made of. The DA would have to prove the person who has them illegally imported or manufactured the magazines. Everything else is legal. That is why the law is ridiculous and unenforceable. I agree the law is ridiculous. That being said, first the LEO would need to be ignorant of the laws on High caps in your instance. If he was and the DA had a hair up his butt to convict someone of transporting high caps into the state, the guy with the factory original mags had best hope Magpul doesnt keep records of spring steel certs on file...mag body made 3/2004, mag spring matches to 98% same steel used during 3/2004, but only not prior months or post 3/2008/floor plate matches to current standards from 4/2003 to 5/2004, Follower matches to 98% of the 3/2004 mag runs. Conclussion= mag provided by DA has a 98% chance to be a factory original mag produced on 3/2004. stored onsite till 6/2004, and was part of lot #12863 sold to AZ Gun Runners of AZ on 1/2005....oh yeah juries love to hear stats...Any lawyer will tell you that you are guilty in their eyes until you prove otherwise...dont care what the law says...Oh did I mention the DA has a CC reciept dated 2/2005 from AZ gun runners with your name on it...lol

I get what you are saying...it is very hard to prove where the mag came from, but its best to not say things like "dont worry, no one can find out" or "everybody does it..." that stuff leads down a dark road.

Now, about the bullet button.

I'm going to steal from Wes' explanation, cause it will help


OK, now... the bullet button instantly engages EVERY TIME a magazine is inserted. Without removing the bullet button, there is no way for the rifle to be capable of accepting a detachable magazine, as per the definition above. Hence, you can drop the magazine using a tool anytime or keep the magwell open when then bullet button is installed. I see what you are saying now, since to insert a mag you must depress the BB, with a tool, so in that respect, its not a detactable mag...that I can understand.

Alternatively, if you don't have ANY of the features listed in that PC (pistol grip, collapsible stock, flash hider, etc...), you CAN have a detachable magazine semi-automatic rifle. Ya I do want to use my 30rd mags, so i will have a A2 stock, normal Hgs or atleast no VFG and a muzzle comp only..with a MMG.

NRAhighpowershooter
01-27-2008, 4:01 AM
keep it civil or I'm deleting this whole thread.........

aplinker
01-27-2008, 4:06 AM
For what seems the 100th time, at no point did I say anything along the lines of "dont worry, no one can find out" or "everybody does it..."

In fact, what I've said is quite the opposite.

I think your understanding of what would be provable by a DA and understandable by an LEO is way off.

In the example I provided above both person A and person B have magazines entirely made from parts that were made after 2006. By looking at the magazines there would be absolutely no way to tell the difference. What is the difference between them?

Sure, they could even have a credit card receipt from a store in AZ that sells gun parts. That still isn't enough. You could have bought magazines in AZ, disassembled them into parts, then used those parts to rebuild your magazines here in CA.

What you're not understanding is that it doesn't matter where that mag or the parts came from. It ONLY matters whether or not the person imported or manufactured a high capacity magazine. The existence of a magazine with new parts doesn't prove that in any way. The existence of an AZ receipt doesn't prove it, either, as there are logical reasons for how both could be legal.

Lastly, the Bullet Button doesn't require the use of a tool to attach the magazine, as this doesn't matter. It's the detaching that requires the use of a tool. Every time a magazine is removed from the firearm a tool is required, so the firearm is incapable of accepting a detachable magazine, thus it's not an assault weapon even with the specified features.


Ya I do want to use my 30rd mags, so i will have a A2 stock, normal Hgs or atleast no VFG and a muzzle comp only..with a MMG.

Just don't put a VFG, flash hider, pistol grip, thumbhole stock, collapsible stock or rocket/flare/grenade launcher on it.

Jax
01-27-2008, 5:50 AM
For what seems the 100th time, at no point did I say anything along the lines of

In fact, what I've said is quite the opposite.

I think your understanding of what would be provable by a DA and understandable by an LEO is way off.

In the example I provided above both person A and person B have magazines entirely made from parts that were made after 2006. By looking at the magazines there would be absolutely no way to tell the difference. What is the difference between them? You are right, in your situation it would be next to impossible to prove...

Crossing the border with that same mag will get you a felony conviction if you can''t prove you rebuilt one. Juries are going to go for, "Prove I didnt rebuild a mag" defense. Juries dont think like that. Your lawyer will tell them they have to find you "not guilty" because the states cant prove you didnt, then state will tell them 1+1 =2. They are new mags parts are consistant with the date code from the manufacturer (1) + he was coming from a state that sells new mags (1) = he bought the mags new and was transporting them into CA.....The fact remains a DA can prove the parts came from a certain run of mags with the date code stamped on the mag.

Sure, they could even have a credit card receipt from a store in AZ that sells gun parts. That still isn't enough. You could have bought magazines in AZ, disassembled them into parts, then used those parts to rebuild your magazines here in CA. More ammo for them to nail you with..unless it states MAGAZINE PARTS


What you're not understanding is that it doesn't matter where that mag or the parts came from. It ONLY matters whether or not the person imported or manufactured a high capacity magazine. The existence of a magazine with new parts doesn't prove that in any way. The existence of an AZ receipt doesn't prove it, either, as there are logical reasons for how both could be legal. I agree, and its also legal for you to own a switchblade, but you can't buy one, sell one, or transport one...so how did you get it? I built it... OK, prove it


Lastly, the Bullet Button doesn't require the use of a tool to attach the magazine, as this doesn't matter. It's the detaching that requires the use of a tool. Every time a magazine is removed from the firearm a tool is required, so the firearm is incapable of accepting a detachable magazine, thus it's not an assault weapon even with the specified features. I understand that..And please don't try to say its not a loophole...we all know why the law was written and what the intent was...Hopefully the DAs will get so flooded with arrest and protests that they back off, I guess that will help out..it did for the one-handed opening knives after they were classified as automatics (by way of spring, gravity or force = automatic by the old laws) If not then they will just see what you guys are doing and re-write the law to include mag must be welded with 35 bolts and blind rivots with two part apoxy resin sealant...lol



Just don't put a VFG, flash hider, pistol grip, thumbhole stock, collapsible stock or rocket/flare/grenade launcher on it.


Its getting late..this was a great discussion. You schooled me on the current woes and legal mombojumbo in CA. I had fun thanx man.

Mac
01-27-2008, 6:01 AM
I think I'll use this as my signature? too long?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=53271&highlight=breaking+news

On page 9 (10th page, if title page counted), right above Ignatius Chinn's signature, we have the key statement:


"DOJ has never indicated nor implied that it would not enforce Penal Code
section 12276.1 or section 978.20(a) of the Regulations, or that district
attorneys within the state would be at liberty to take action inconsistent
with Penal Code section 12276.1 or the Regulations. DOJ does not consider
a magazine attached by a screw, requiring a screwdriver for removal, to
be a detachable magazine."

aplinker
01-27-2008, 7:42 AM
The defense wouldn't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. There are also regs stating that leaving the state of CA and returning with your hi-cap mags is perfectly legal, as well. That's further reason that all of those instances are legal. Also, if the person in that scenario brought them into CA in pieces, they have violated no law.

Again, possession of a magazine entirely built from post-ban parts does not constitute a crime. Traveling from AZ to CA with said magazine doesn't constitute a crime. Only the importation or manufacture is a crime. Given the number of legal ways to possess them, it's impossible to show a given magazine is illegal, no matter what the date of manufacture, where the parts were purchased, etc.

Further complicating your argument, and which I didn't even bother to bring up before, is that finding a magazine is completely legal, as well. So, if someone could find and keep high capacity magazines left behind at the range, in the desert, etc... Lastly, it's legal for an armored car company to import and sell high caps. It's also legal to buy them in CA -- there is nothing in the PC about buying. This is yet another way to legally acquire them.

The Bullet Button follows the law as written. As such, it's 100% legal. It would require modification to the written law for that to change. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Its getting late..this was a great discussion. You schooled me on the current woes and legal mombojumbo in CA. I had fun thanx man.

Ech0Sierra
01-27-2008, 8:02 AM
:hurray::hurray::clap::clap::hurray::hurray:

NRAhighpowershooter
01-27-2008, 12:14 PM
OK.. both main posters have had their say.. this thread has run it's course...