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TimG
12-27-2007, 1:45 PM
I should say negligent discharge, not accidental I suppose. On Christmas day, my Dad wanted to see my Glock G26 (My Dad is a former M.P. and a retired deputy Sheriff so he knows firearms) so I open up the safe and hand it to him. I have a bad habit of keeping a loaded magazine in the pistol but no round in the firing chamber. So my Dad takes it out of the holster and with the pistol pointed down (in the safest direction possible) pulled the slide back and confirmed that there was no round chambered but from the steep angle he was holding it at did not see the top round in the magazine. He released the slide as I was turning away to grab my coffee, and there's only one way to decock a Glock...... Let me tell you, a 9mm round fired inside a closed garage is louder than hell. The round grazed my safes door and put a big dent in the very bottom corner and there's some lead splatter on the floor. but no other damage thank God. Which brings up a question, I cannot find that bullet anywhere. No pieces of the jacket, no lead parts... nothing. The distance from the muzzle to the safe was about three feet. Did that round disintegrate or should I keep looking ??

Anyhow, that was a loud and very disturbing reminder of the four rules. There were many things I did wrong as well as my Dad. Needles to say, none of my pistols have magazines in them anymore.

Soldier415
12-27-2007, 1:47 PM
YIKES.

Glad your OK, and that you manned up and called it a negligent discharge.

Definately a learning experience, glad no one got hurt. good luck finding the round...

5968
12-27-2007, 1:51 PM
Glad to hear you guys didn't get hurt. Basic firearm safety rules should always be observed for this reason. Not trying to bash on you. I'm glad that you posted what happened as gentle reminder to all of us.

thedonger
12-27-2007, 1:56 PM
My Father did that very same thing once. Once. The round went into the safe door.

While showing his collection to my sisters boyfriend. :rofl2: They both just about had to change their pants.

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 1:57 PM
(My Dad is a former M.P. and a retired deputy Sheriff so he knows firearms)

What does that mean? Some of the most arrogant yet firearm ignorant people I know are ex-military or ex-leo.

I would rather train someone who knows nothing and knows it than someone who does not know everything, but thinks it.

As far as the NG... no biggie; the basic rules were followed, though not correctly it is much better than doing nothing; the muzzle was still pointed in a safe direction. Its better than shooting a hole in your door and killing bathroom tiles... :)

U2BassAce
12-27-2007, 1:57 PM
I blame it on Glock!:D

Glad no one was hurt! ;) That must have been quite the shock!!

ocabj
12-27-2007, 2:04 PM
To properly check if a firearm is unloaded:

1. Remove the magazine if applicable.
2. If magazine not removable, unload all rounds in the internal magazine.
3. Open action to visually and physically check that there is no round in the chamber.
4. Visually and physically check to see that the magazine follower is visible and no rounds in the magazine, if magazine non-removable.

When you hand an 'unloaded' firearm to someone else, always unload and verify unloaded. Show the person you are handing it to that it is unloaded (action open, show chamber and show magazine is removed or that there are no rounds in the magazine if non-removable).

TimG
12-27-2007, 2:11 PM
To properly check if a firearm is unloaded:

1. Remove the magazine if applicable.
2. If magazine not removable, unload all rounds in the internal magazine.
3. Open action to visually and physically check that there is no round in the chamber.
4. Visually and physically check to see that the magazine follower is visible and no rounds in the magazine, if magazine non-removable.

When you hand an 'unloaded' firearm to someone else, always unload and verify unloaded. Show the person you are handing it to that it is unloaded (action open, show chamber and show magazine is removed or that there are no rounds in the magazine if non-removable).

Exactly. I was rather complacent and handed him a pistol with a loaded magazine in it. He was complacent in thinking that just because no round came out when he pulled the side back that it was clear.

I just posted that as a friendly reminder to us all

tonb
12-27-2007, 2:11 PM
To properly check if a firearm is unloaded:

1. Remove the magazine if applicable.
2. If magazine not removable, unload all rounds in the internal magazine.
3. Open action to visually and physically check that there is no round in the chamber.
4. Visually and physically check to see that the magazine follower is visible and no rounds in the magazine, if magazine non-removable.

When you hand an 'unloaded' firearm to someone else, always unload and verify unloaded. Show the person you are handing it to that it is unloaded (action open, show chamber and show magazine is removed or that there are no rounds in the magazine if non-removable).

+1

I keep my 1911 loaded as well; when I hand it to someone I eject the magazine and check/clear the chamber before handing it over slide locked back.

When handed any gun, including one that someone has just cleared in front of me, I eject the mag if present and check/clear the chamber.

If those steps were followed this would not have happened.

Glad no one got shot!

thedonger
12-27-2007, 2:14 PM
In my large safe I do not store any guns with loaded mags inside the gun. I do keep some loaded mags in the safe if needed. The only weapons I keep with loaded mags also have one in the chamber and in a quick access location.

brianm767
12-27-2007, 2:15 PM
Well I wont go into any of the things already mentioned, as I'm sure your already aware of the mistakes that were made, and they will not be repeated.

It is a good lesson for all of us,

But to your question, I would keep looking for that round, seems to me it or pieces of it have to be some where?

Have you checked all exterior walls and interior house walls to make sure that round was contained in your garage?

Your neighbors dog hasn't seemed to stop barking since the incident has he?

I can see it now, ten years from now you'll be cleaning your garage and say, There it is!

Fjold
12-27-2007, 2:16 PM
The bullet is somewhere in the garage or else there is a hole and it is outside.

Soldier415
12-27-2007, 2:18 PM
Well I wont go into any of the things already mentioned, as I'm sure your already aware of the mistakes that were made, and they will not be repeated.

It is a good lesson for all of us,

But to your question, I would keep looking for that round, seems to me it or pieces of it have to be some where?

Have you checked all exterior walls and interior house walls to make sure that round was contained in your garage?

Your neighbors dog hasn't seemed to stop barking since the incident has he?

I can see it now, ten years from now you'll be cleaning your garage and say, There it is!

One more question...did you happen to have a fresh pair of shorts handy? :D

tonb
12-27-2007, 2:24 PM
Oh and to the OP, thanks for posting this it is a good reminder for us all to not get lazy. Takes balls to come out and say I messed up...

MudCamper
12-27-2007, 2:33 PM
I don't think the OP did anything wrong. His dad did.

I don't care what anybody says when they hand me a firearm. ("It's not loaded. It's loaded." whatever.) It is in my hand and is now my responsibility.

AJAX22
12-27-2007, 3:00 PM
My grandfather did something similar back in 1943.

He was an MP who was visiting my grandma, and my great grandfather (his soon to be father in law) expressed an interest in his 1911 (my great grandfather had served as an officer in the czarist russian army)

My grandfather dropped the mag, racked the slide to clear the chamber, rchecked it to insure that it was empty, pulled the trigger to decock and handed the pistol to my great grandfather.

great grandfather looked it over, and said that it was nice, then handed it back.

Then my grandfather proceded to:

Insert Magazine
Rack slide to clear chamber :rolleyes:
point gun in a safe direction
decock by pulling trigger

BANG

and the coffee table lost a leg

ccwguy
12-27-2007, 4:05 PM
There's always that 'magic' bullet that jumps into the gun. Negligent yes, the pistol should have been cleared and cleared again, then handed off locked open and checked and checked again by the receiving party.

Sorry if I sound abrasive, but you let your guard down! NEVER let your guard down. The penalty for such is a kick in the *** and half you bullet are belong to me.

rebelmark26
12-27-2007, 4:24 PM
Whats with the ND's lately...a friend of mine's sister did that over Thanksgiving...you should ALWAYS drop the magazine before racking a firearm.

j1133s
12-27-2007, 4:37 PM
I don't think the OP did anything wrong. His dad did.

I don't care what anybody says when they hand me a firearm. ("It's not loaded. It's loaded." whatever.) It is in my hand and is now my responsibility.

From reading this, the OP didn't verify that his Glock was unloaded. His dad also didn't fully verify that the gun handed to him was unloaded.

Becareful, and always verify that a pistol is unloaded even if it was just checked in front of you by someone else. OP, I am glad that nobody's hurt !

virulosity
12-27-2007, 5:04 PM
To answer the OP's question about where the round went: it is possible for JHPs to frag if they hit a solid surface head on. There may be six or seven sharp pieces of copper littered around the garage.

CSDGuy
12-27-2007, 5:12 PM
To answer the OP's question about where the round went: it is possible for JHPs to frag if they hit a solid surface head on. There may be six or seven sharp pieces of copper littered around the garage.
If this is the case, you'll undoubtedly will will find those pieces with your feet... this summer!

magsnubby
12-27-2007, 6:12 PM
I don't think the OP did anything wrong.

I Never hand anyone a pistol that has a loaded magazine. I always drop the mag (even if the mag is empty), visually and physically check the chamber, secure the magazine, then hand them the gun minus the magazine.


His dad did.

You're half right.

FortCourageArmory
12-27-2007, 8:48 PM
Did that round disintegrate or should I keep looking ??

First off, good to hear that no one was hurt. Secondly, the round probably disintegrated. Lead (even copper-jacketed lead) tends to do that when it impacts a solid impenetrable (sp?!?) surface. Wood, drywall or furniture padding would have captured the bullet. A solid steel vault door wouldn't. Stop looking.

ocabj
12-27-2007, 8:54 PM
With regards to the bullet, it's highly unlikely that it disintegrated. If anything, the jacket sheared from the lead core and they are in separate pieces.

drdanno84
12-27-2007, 9:11 PM
I was chambering a round in my ak 47 a few years back and "boom" the round shot out and scared the s@it out of me. Luckily I was out in the desert
and the weapon was pointed in a safe direction. I soon became familar with the "slam fire" phenomenon! Now when I chamber any round in any firearm
it is always pointed in a safe direction.

Greg-Dawg
12-27-2007, 9:40 PM
I have a bad habit of keeping a loaded magazine in the pistol....

Time to change this habit. Glad you're ALIVE to share this story. This is an excellent reminder to FULLY unload a weapon when "showing it off".

tankerman
12-27-2007, 10:01 PM
I'm a little surprised that someone as familiar with firearms as your father would not know the feel of a gun with a loaded mag. Otherwise what you described him doing was not checking the chamber, I think most folks refer to that as chambering a round.

ryang
12-27-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm a little surprised that someone as familiar with firearms as your father would not know the feel of a gun with a loaded mag.I highly doubt anyone who is unfamilar with a G26 would be able to tell. With 115gr HP the thing fully loaded weighs less than many (empty, non-plastic) full-sized pistols.

SJshooter
12-27-2007, 10:16 PM
I am curious as to what the legal ramifications of this ND could be. Does the gun owner have a duty to report it? What would happen if a neighbor heard the shot and called the police and they showed up to ask what happened?

N6ATF
12-27-2007, 10:41 PM
Let me just say... hooray for Glocks.

bruss01
12-28-2007, 3:03 AM
Glad no one was hurt. Another example of why "There is no such thing as an unloaded gun." The exception being one that is PRESENTLY without a magazine and has the action open, empty chamber visible.

I've never understood putting guns in storage (vault, safe, etc.) with a loaded mag - the idea being that if it's a defensive gun, it needs to be available in a defensive time frame, i.e. 10 seconds or less. That means unlocked, within easy reach and already loaded. At my home, anything outside the safe is RELIGIOUSLY loaded, anything inside the safe is religiously unloaded. Whenever we handle guns in the home, for purpose of display (not defense), cleaning, etc. it is our practice to remove magazine, lock action open, and carry the gun in our palm, not by the grip so it is obvious to one and all that an unloaded pistol is being handled.

No such thing as an unloaded gun. Doesn't exist. If you aren't looking at an open, empty chamber and a vacant mag well, IT IS BLOODY WELL LOADED AND NEEDS TO BE TREATED AS SUCH. Even if it was unloaded half a second ago, if the chamber went closed then it's loaded NOW. A round got teleported in there, don't you see. This is one of those true-falsehoods that will save lives and embarassment if followed.

Kudos again to the OP who had the stones to post this, a great reminder for all of us.

M. Sage
12-28-2007, 5:24 AM
With regards to the bullet, it's highly unlikely that it disintegrated. If anything, the jacket sheared from the lead core and they are in separate pieces.

I dunno. Bullets fly into a lot of tiny pieces when they hit something hard (like thick steel or concrete) at full speed. I'm sure that if he finds anything, it'll be in a lot more than two pieces.

tenpercentfirearms
12-28-2007, 6:23 AM
Honestly, if I were you, I would not store my guns unloaded as this will just happen again. I would store them all loaded. That way the next time you hand a firearm to someone, you know it is loaded and you will be sure to completely unload it and lock back the slide before handing it over.

I think the semi-loaded state directly led to this incident and if all of your guns were loaded, you would have been more careful.

Actually, having a ND when I was 21 with an M1 Carbine was the best thing that ever happened to me. I most certainly don't assume anything anymore. A very humbling experience.

sloguy
12-28-2007, 6:46 AM
accidents happen. the important thing is no one was hurt. the other important thing is that you wont make the same mistake as easily. everyone has an accident sometime. hopefully they are small ones where no one gets hurt.

my worst accident story is kinda funny. we were out squirrel hunting and it was slow, so, i was positive the rifle was empty with no round in the chamber and took a practice pull sighted on a bird way the heck off in the distance sitting on a wood fence post. "BOOM" and we see a cloud of what looks like feathers. luckily for the bird he was out of my zeroed range and i didnt compensate by aiming high. knocked a hole in the fence post a few inches below the birds feet. we were seeing fence dust and splinters, not feathers. the bird didnt even fly away, he shakes off and i swear, birds can have mad faces.

anyway, i learned. no serious harm done.

762cavalier
12-28-2007, 6:50 AM
Wes- That is what I do. ALL handguns in my house are loaded. I have told my family members that ALL handguns are loaded. When one is picked up it is picked up and made safe before handling.

I had a ND/AD when I was about 22 with a shotgun. was unloading it by racking the slide,chambering a round, racking the slide,etc. On the last round as I chambered the shell the gun went off. Scared the crap out of me. After that I just went to bed. When my roommate got home all he saw was the shotgun sitting on the ground a hole in the ceiling and white powder everywhere.:rofl2:
I dug the shotgun slug out of the ceiling the next day. It went through the plastered wall, clipped through a 2x4, clipped another 2x4, and was kept from leaving the house by the asphalt shingle, which had a good dent in it.
Since then I have been WAY more careful with guns.;)

ivanimal
12-28-2007, 7:54 AM
My dad used to say it's the unloaded gun that will kill you.:(. Isnt there anyone you can sue, its just not American to admit your mistake and learn from it. We need more warnings printed on our firearms.:rolleyes:

Glad you are safe. I am going to make my son read this thread. Thanks for being honest and posting this.

TimG
12-28-2007, 8:28 AM
I crawled around on my hands & knees last night and found several very small pieces of lead and copper, most were like 1/16 of an inch or smaller. Around where the bullet hit the floor there were pieces of lead that were like sand. I found a piece on the other side of the garage that was about as big and as flat as a pinky nail. I'll have to post some pics if I can figure out the camera but you can see where it grazed the door of the safe (the door was open), hit the very bottom corner then the floor. That dent on the bottom of the safe is going to stay there as a reminder.

None of my nieghbors heard the shot as far as I know.

M. Sage
12-28-2007, 9:33 AM
None of my nieghbors heard the shot as far as I know.

They're probably assuming it was something else. Most people don't think they've heard a gun shot when they hear one.

R_P_Rizzo
12-28-2007, 10:16 AM
If you want to know where the bullet went, just wait for the next time it rains. :D

Soldier415
12-28-2007, 10:21 AM
Most people don't think they've heard a gun shot when they hear one.


That's because they have only heard gunshots on TV shows and in movies :rolleyes:

Turbinator
12-28-2007, 10:36 AM
Let me just say... hooray for Glocks.

Let me just say...

This has nothing to do with the gun in question being a Glock. There was also a 1911 mentioned in this thread.

The reality is that it comes down to the people handling the guns, just as everyone else has mentioned. Without people, guns are useless inanimate objects, regardless of the inclusion or exclusion of features, the maker, or the quality (or lack thereof) of the item in question.

Thanks for your useful insight and contribution to this thread.

Turby

psriley
12-28-2007, 11:07 AM
Thanks for posting, and I'll add my relief that no one was hurt.

My procedure for handing someone one of my firearms:

Insist the other person observes, regardless of their experience level.

Retrieve firearm from safe, eject mag, if present (not usually, since I store all but one of my guns dry).

Rack slide three or four times, which would clear a
chambered round, and the next three "magic rounds".

Lock slide open.

Visually verify empty chamber, and that I can see all the way through the magwell.

Hand firearm to the other person butt-first, muzzle down.

Watch while other person points firearm in a safe direction, drops slide and repeats multiple slide rack. Anyone who is going to handle one of my firearms will know to do this.

Same procedure to hand firearm back to me.

I repeat this procedure myself prior to placing firearm back in safe.

No exceptions ever.

U2BassAce
12-28-2007, 11:23 AM
Yep. When I hand someone a semi auto handgun my procedure is.

Point HG in safe direction
Drop mag
Cycle slide and with slide stop lock lever, lock back slide
Visually and physically check that firearm is unloaded
Hand to person with slide still locked back and no mag in HG

GenLee
12-28-2007, 11:50 AM
Kudos again to the OP who had the stones to post this, a great reminder for all of us.[/QUOTE]

Thanx for the post, A great reminder to us all. Safety is never practiced enough.

duenor
12-28-2007, 1:00 PM
Please post a pic. I'd like to see what kind of damage an RSC can take.

I do have a few pieces of useful information I'd like to share.

1. Some guns you have to have loaded to be useful. Shotguns, for example, that use tube magazines. Thus it all guns should be considered loaded, and clearing a weapon each time is of importance. Many people dont properly clear a semiauto handgun because it is difficult to visually and physically inspect that a gun is indeed empty - a certain amount of strength is necessary to pull the slide back. What is suggest is this (and for semiauto handguns only)

a. drop the magazine
b. pull the hammer back (again applies only to hammer models), lock
c. pull the slide back with your weak side fingers so that you can examine the chamber. this is easy now because the hammer is already back. do it 3x to be sure. you should be able to see right through the mag well each time.

if you really want to be sure that it is empty, lock the slide back and stick a pinky inside the chamber. that said, if you do ever find a round in there you have not been servicing / observing your gun properly and you will need to replace that extractor at least at that point.

The hammer-back, chamber-check method is used by several instructors these days as a means of checking the chamber in a gun that is already loaded as well. it also allows the user to see if he has a round chambered so that if he gets into a fight he wont pull on an empty chamber.

Finally, this is why all my semi-auto guns have decockers (even the CZ52 and Mak). I hate having to worry about finger slip when thumbing down. do ensure that your decocker actually works, though. the CZ and Maks have had reports of click-bang decockers before.

GammaRei
12-28-2007, 9:06 PM
I only have a Revolver, kinda really difficult for me to not notice that a round is in the chamber. I always use a light source to make sure its clear just to be safe. But other than me bein a moron and sayin Im so safe (knocks on wood) its glad to hear that you and yer dad are ok.

- G

PS: Teach yer dad to double check.

robitrocks
12-28-2007, 11:03 PM
if you really want to be sure that it is empty, lock the slide back and stick a pinky inside the chamber. that said, if you do ever find a round in there you have not been servicing / observing your gun properly and you will need to replace that extractor at least at that point.


:iagree: Good point.

CSACANNONEER
12-28-2007, 11:18 PM
With regards to the bullet, it's highly unlikely that it disintegrated. If anything, the jacket sheared from the lead core and they are in separate pieces.

You're more than welcome to come to the indoor range I work at. Shoot at the steel plate backing 50' down range and see how much of a FMJ is left after hitting something hard. 10:1 the bullet is now just lead dust and a few small fragments of copper.

N6ATF
12-28-2007, 11:59 PM
my worst accident story is kinda funny. we were out squirrel hunting and it was slow, so, i was positive the rifle was empty with no round in the chamber and took a practice pull sighted on a bird way the heck off in the distance sitting on a wood fence post. "BOOM" and we see a cloud of what looks like feathers. luckily for the bird he was out of my zeroed range and i didnt compensate by aiming high. knocked a hole in the fence post a few inches below the birds feet. we were seeing fence dust and splinters, not feathers. the bird didnt even fly away, he shakes off and i swear, birds can have mad faces.

Ha!

Let me just say...

This has nothing to do with the gun in question being a Glock. There was also a 1911 mentioned in this thread.

...

Thanks for your useful insight and contribution to this thread.

Turby

My sarcasm is just not able to be appreciated on this side of the pond...

Turbinator
12-29-2007, 12:18 AM
My sarcasm is just not able to be appreciated on this side of the pond...

Sorry. I didn't see a sarcasm smiley in your post, though.

Turby

StraightShooter
12-29-2007, 12:32 AM
When I put away my home defense pistol (beretta m9) i put the loaded mag in a little more than half way. In the event that i need the gun all i have to do is push it in the rest of the way and rack the slide. If i go to pick it up and give it to someone to look at then the magazine will either fall out on its own or if for some reason it doesnt fall out, it isnt high enough to enable a round to be chambered. Of course though I still always make it a point to detatch the mag, check and recheck my gun before handing it to anyone.

sloguy
12-29-2007, 9:09 AM
ive taken to the habit that any gun i keep loaded at home i stick a blue piece of masking tape with the word "loaded" written on it. it seems to be a good system.

E Pluribus Unum
12-29-2007, 12:14 PM
ive taken to the habit that any gun i keep loaded at home i stick a blue piece of masking tape with the word "loaded" written on it. it seems to be a good system.

Your system invites death and is VERY dangerous.

There is a much better system; every gun is always loaded all of the time; check and re-check; THAT is the only system.

Ironchef
12-29-2007, 8:35 PM
To the OP,
Shouldn't YOU have cleared it before giving it to him? Or did he grab it from your safe and do his "negligent" check?

When doing my HSC and studying basic gun handling, I believe it's mentioned that ANY person handling a firearm should clear it...even if it's going back and forth between two people. "Assuming" it's always loaded is the reason.

N6ATF
12-29-2007, 11:27 PM
Sorry. I didn't see a sarcasm smiley in your post, though.

Turby

If you have to say you're being sarcastic, you might as well not say have said anything sarcastic at all.

eckerph
12-30-2007, 4:18 PM
(My Dad is a former M.P. and a retired deputy Sheriff so he knows firearms)

99% this statement is very false.