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View Full Version : Gunrunners in Merced, said they will not do another PPT for us,


brianm767
12-27-2007, 1:19 PM
I recently did a PPT at Gunrunners in Merced, it went OK but man they really don't like doing PPT's, she was telling us, she didn't want to offend us, but to her, it's not worth her license to do them and she only gets $10 to put her license on the line, I told her I understood it was a hassle for not much money, but as citizens we have to do a PPT to keep it legal,

During our conversations I had mentioned to her that there was a Fresno dealer who almost refused to do one for me, and I heard from some one else that they did refuse to do one, but I cant confirm that, she was livid, she said I should have reported them to the Ca DOJ, I said yes but they did do mine, so for me there was nothing to report, if they did refuse mine, that would have been different, she said it's dealers like that, that make her do PPT's for people who she would not normally have to do them for.

Well I left and when I got home I got the following email from the other member who I transfer my shot gun to saying that gunrunners had asked him several questions and had determined our transaction was not a PPT and it should have been $100, and they would not do another one for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's his email
She asked how we came into contact if we didn't already know each other. I told her we both frequent an online gun forum that allows the posting of "for sale" items and you listed the shotgun and I wanted it. She said that is wasn't a PPT and that it was an online transaction and she should have charged me $100, not $10 and to tell you that she wouldn't do that again. I didn't have to pay more than what I already paid. I don't know why she considered it an online transaction. It is no different than an ad in the classifieds of a newspaper.

I'd consider an online transaction as:I bought from a dealer or individual and had it shipped to her in which she would need to either fax or mail her FFL first. Then she'd take delivery and I'd do the proper paperwork.

I don't understand her thought process If I would have purchased a firearm off GunsAmerica and contacted her to provide her FFl to the seller, and have her receive the gun, then yes, it's not a PPT and she could charge me what ever she wants, but in this case, what is the difference between cal guns on line classifieds, or if he would have viewed it on line in the Fresno Bees classifieds? no transaction had taken place over the internet, only an agreement to meet and if we were both happy with the deal, we would then go into Gunrunners and do a PPT, the shot gun was not purchased online.

Soldier415
12-27-2007, 1:20 PM
Yet another shop to not give our business to.

Prc329
12-27-2007, 1:25 PM
Buying a gun from 10% and having the FFLs faxed, etc would be an FFL transfer. Buying from a private citizen even though you met online is a PPT. The lady is just mad cause she has to do a little paperwork and can only charge 10. Go elsewhere next time.

Bizcuits
12-27-2007, 1:30 PM
Something to remember, everyone you do business with has been your friend since preschool.

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 1:31 PM
Its easy to figure out what a PPT is.

If the current owner is present in the shop with the gun.

If the buyer is present in the shop at the same time.


THAT is a PPT and is only $10; anything else is not. If the dealer has to accept a shipment or collect monies from the buyer that is another story.

Mike's Custom
12-27-2007, 1:35 PM
WOW. As long as both parties are at the dealer at the same time it is a PPT. In teh "old days" before we had to go through a dealer for a transfer, the federal law was that the person receiving the firearm must be "known" to you. According to the then ATF, you were susposed to know the person you were selling/transfering the firearm too. You were susposed to know that they were not a restricted person. You could not just sell a firearm to anybody and hand them the gun. This was the law but it was not enforced that way at all. Even today, in states that do not require a FFL registration like CA, the transfer must be done to a person known to you. It really isn't legal to take a gun to a gun show and just sell it to someone you have never met. But in CA this does not matter since all person to person transfers must be done through a dealer. Such is a PPT.

bwiese
12-27-2007, 1:39 PM
Its easy to figure out what a PPT is.

If the current owner is present in the shop with the gun.

If the buyer is present in the shop at the same time.

THAT is a PPT and is only $10; anything else is not. If the dealer has to accept a shipment or collect monies from the buyer that is another story.


Um, transactions run as PPTs do not have to be simultaneous face to face...

(1) consignment sales, paperwork for seller's done already/different time than when the buyer's there.

(2) Also, PPTs can be run across CA between two residents/two FFLs as a 'gun show transaction': the first CA FFL gets the gun from the seller and manually captures the ID info and sends the gun to the 2nd CA FFL, where the buyer completes the PPT paperwork.


There is no requirement for PPT transactions for parties to know each other.

The whole goal of the PPT process is, in fact, to allow an outlet for lawful gun sale and sanction a structured environment so such sales are not forced underground/undocumented.

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 1:43 PM
Um, transactions run as PPTs do not have to be simultaneous face to face...

(1) consignment sales, paperwork for seller's done already/different time than when the buyer's there.

(2) Also, PPTs can be run across CA between two residents/two FFLs as a 'gun show transaction': the first CA FFL gets the gun from the seller and manually captures the ID info and sends the gun to the 2nd CA FFL, where the buyer completes the PPT paperwork.


There is no requirement for PPT transactions for parties to know each other.

The whole goal of the PPT process is, in fact, to allow an outlet for lawful gun sale and sanction a structured environment so such sales are not forced underground/undocumented.

But on a "gun show transaction" the FFLs would be able to charge whatever they wanted and are not limited to $10 correct?

kermit315
12-27-2007, 1:45 PM
what is with all the PPT problems lately.

Mike's Custom
12-27-2007, 1:50 PM
But on a "gun show transaction" the FFLs would be able to charge whatever they wanted and are not limited to $10 correct?

Yes, a Gun Show Transaction is different so the PPT fee does not apply. But, a consignment is the same as a PPT and the dealer can charge a consignment fee but only to the seller. Also, a PPT can be a firearm transfered from another dealer in a different area of CA as long as the DROS 2nd party section is filled out and a copy of the CA ID is with the DROS FORM and it is signed by the seller. In this case teh dealer may charge a fee to accept the firearm but can still only charge $10 to the buyer for the PPT.

brianm767
12-27-2007, 1:50 PM
Yah I know she was just pissed because she really didn't want to do a PPT, even when another guy in the store asked , Can I help you? he wasn't aware the other lady was helping us, I said yah we need to do a PPT, he started laughing and said, great my favorite thing to do,

The lady was also telling the buyer to bring proof of residency with him to pick up the gun, I said, excuse me, inst that for hand guns only? then she said oh yah your right, I keep thinking it's a hand gun.

She was also mentioning dealers who were doing transfers of OLL's she said I don't care who you are, that is out right illegal, I said well if it has a non detachable Mag, then it's not illegal as per the current laws , she said well that where it gets unclear.

It's too bad, I really like this store, and the lady in question, she's been very helpful to me in the past and I would like to do business with them in the future, not just PPT, but buying more firearms through her, but at this point, I really don't feel welcomed in her store at all.

Soldier415
12-27-2007, 1:52 PM
Yah I know she was just pissed because she really didn't want to do a PPT, even when another guy in the store asked , Can I help you? he wasn't aware the other lady was helping us, I said yah we need to do a PPT, he started laughing and said, great my favorite thing to do,

The lady was also telling the buyer to bring proof of residency with him to pick up the gun, I said, excuse me, inst that for hand guns only? then she said oh yah your right, I keep thinking it's a hand gun.

She was also mentioning dealers who were doing transfers of OLL's she said I don't care who you are, that is out right illegal, I said well if it has a non detachable Mag, then it's not illegal as per the current laws , she said well that where it gets unclear.

It's too bad, I really like this store, and the lady in question, she's been very helpful to me in the past and I would like to do business with them in the future, not just PPT, but buying more firearms through her, but at this point, I really don't feel welcomed in her store at all.

Sounds like they need to change the name of the shop to FUDRunners

Kruzr
12-27-2007, 2:20 PM
Sure sounds like there was a misunderstanding in the conversation between the lady and the guy you bought the gun from. Did he bother to mention that is was a California forum and not an auction site?

Why not call her back and clear it up and then post the result?

brianm767
12-27-2007, 2:54 PM
Sure sounds like there was a misunderstanding in the conversation between the lady and the guy you bought the gun from. Did he bother to mention that is was a California forum and not an auction site?

Why not call her back and clear it up and then post the result?

Not sure as to what his conversation was with her, except he told her it was a online gun forum, with a classified section,

But I don't think it would matter? no transaction took place on line, we were both there face to face, even if I found a gun on an online auction, but I met the seller in person , and all money and the transfer was done in a local gun shop, wouldn't it still be considered a FTF PPT, IMOP it doesn't matter how or where you come across the gun for sale, it matters how the money and firearm are transfered, to me it's simple, if two people meet in person at a FFL, it's a FTF PPT , and as mentioned earlier, we both don't even have to be there at the same time.

I will call and talk to the lady, but I wanted to wait till the buyer picked up his shot gun, I Dont want to cause any potential problems for him by pissing her off even more before he has to go back in her shop.

But I don't think there's any misunderstanding, other than she does not understand what an online transaction is, or she does and she's just trying to keep us out of there for any future PPT's, Also I emailed the Ca DOJ and asked if our situation would be considered an online transaction, ( I know it's not) and I would like to have their response in hand before I talk to her, so if she still is convinced it was not legit, I can then show her the DOJ's response.

-hanko
12-27-2007, 3:00 PM
Even today, in states that do not require a FFL registration like CA, the transfer must be done to a person known to you.

It really isn't legal to take a gun to a gun show and just sell it to someone you have never met.

But in CA this does not matter since all person to person transfers must be done through a dealer. Such is a PPT.
First sentence: Not at all correct. You MAY ask for a DL or proof of residency if it makes you warm/fuzzy, but legally neither are required. I request proof of age (DL w/ picture).

Second sentence: Not correct either. If the transfer is legal in your state of residence AND you are in your state at the time of transfer, no federal law prohibits the sale. SOME states may prohibit private sales, MANY do not.

I can give you first-hand info having done more than a few gunshow purchases and sales in both TX and ID.

Last sentence: Any long gun at least 50 years old can be PPT'd in CA WITHOUT a licensee being involved.

-hanko

Mike's Custom
12-27-2007, 3:29 PM
First sentence: Not at all correct. You MAY ask for a DL or proof of residency if it makes you warm/fuzzy, but legally neither are required. I request proof of age (DL w/ picture).

Second sentence: Not correct either. If the transfer is legal in your state of residence AND you are in your state at the time of transfer, no federal law prohibits the sale. SOME states may prohibit private sales, MANY do not.

I can give you first-hand info having done more than a few gunshow purchases and sales in both TX and ID.

Last sentence: Any long gun at least 50 years old can be PPT'd in CA WITHOUT a licensee being involved.

-hanko


Again, you missunderstand. A dealer has to have proof of who he receives a firearm from whether it is a CCR or whatever. Federally a FFL is required to have proof of who we aquire a firearm from. If someone in another state says they are Joe E. Blow and at 1313 Mockingbird Ln. then I better have some sort of proof that that is who i received the firearm from. As for other states PPTs the person giving and receiving must be known to each other.

Because of all the different state laws the Federal law now states that "A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his state, if he DOES NOT KNOW or HAVE REASONABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law". Also " A person may only aguire a firearm within the person's own State, except that he or she maypurchase or otherwise aquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided that the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of the sale and the State where the purchaser resides".

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 3:59 PM
As for other states PPTs the person giving and receiving must be known to each other.

So then how does one sell his item to a private party via the newspaper?

In your scenario one is required to either sell it to someone he already knows, or to a gun store.

.22guy
12-27-2007, 4:03 PM
Also I emailed the Ca DOJ and asked if our situation would be considered an online transaction, ( I know it's not) and I would like to have their response in hand before I talk to her, so if she still is convinced it was not legit, I can then show her the DOJ's response.

From what I've read on this thread, it sounds like this lady will be majorly PO'd that you contacted DOJ about this matter, even if you didn't use her name. But it's your right to do it. Let us know how it turns out.

brianm767
12-27-2007, 4:08 PM
From what I've read on this thread, it sounds like this lady will be majorly PO'd that you contacted DOJ about this matter, even if you didn't use her name. But it's your right to do it. Let us know how it turns out.

I didn't use her or the shops name, and I'm sure she's going to be majorly PO'd when I talk to her, and tell her I believe she is wrong , thats why I want to wait till the buyer picks up his gun.

ColdSteel
12-27-2007, 4:35 PM
She was also mentioning dealers who were doing transfers of OLL's. She said I don't care who you are, that is out right illegal. I said well if it has a non detachable Mag, then it's not illegal as per the current laws , she said well that where it gets unclear.

What a crock! During the lower craze those guys were selling $200 lowers along with CWS and the rest of them.

Really... To hell with gunrunners. The service sucks, high prices and bad attitudes.
In their store, if you aint' a cop, you aint' sh.. well, yah kno. ;)

-hanko
12-27-2007, 5:01 PM
Again, you missunderstand. A dealer has to have proof of who he receives a firearm from whether it is a CCR or whatever. Federally a FFL is required to have proof of who we aquire a firearm from. If someone in another state says they are Joe E. Blow and at 1313 Mockingbird Ln. then I better have some sort of proof that that is who i received the firearm from. As for other states PPTs the person giving and receiving must be known to each other.

Because of all the different state laws the Federal law now states that "A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his state, if he DOES NOT KNOW or HAVE REASONABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law". Also " A person may only aguire a firearm within the person's own State, except that he or she maypurchase or otherwise aquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided that the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of the sale and the State where the purchaser resides".
Mike, I should have gone back and noted my post was about ppt's between non-licensees...e.g., if I buy a c&r from anyone, I need to see and verify ID. An -01 ffl has the same obligation.

Thanks

-hanko

pepsi2451
12-27-2007, 5:13 PM
During our conversations I had mentioned to her that there was a Fresno dealer who almost refused to do one for me, and I heard from some one else that they did refuse to do one, but I cant confirm that, she was livid, she said I should have reported them to the Ca DOJ, I said yes but they did do mine, so for me there was nothing to report, if they did refuse mine, that would have been different, she said it's dealers like that, that make her do PPT's for people who she would not normally have to do them for.


Well I probably wouldn't feel bad reporting her depending on what she says when you talk to her.

Fjold
12-27-2007, 5:28 PM
During our conversations I had mentioned to her that there was a Fresno dealer who almost refused to do one for me, and I heard from some one else that they did refuse to do one, but I cant confirm that, she was livid, she said I should have reported them to the Ca DOJ, I said yes but they did do mine, so for me there was nothing to report, if they did refuse mine, that would have been different, she said it's dealers like that, that make her do PPT's for people who she would not normally have to do them for.



She thinks that you should report other FFL's to the DOJ, so if she refuses to do a PPT for you then you should report her.

metalhead357
12-27-2007, 5:33 PM
what is with all the PPT problems lately.


You're catching that too:confused: Makes me wonder what's up with all these FFL's.............

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 5:42 PM
You're catching that too:confused: Makes me wonder what's up with all these FFL's.............

They hate doing 15 minutes of work for $10.

That is understandable as I get paid $85 on a 1 hour minium.

Sucks for them but the law that requires them to do it also prohibits private gun sales. That alone turns people off to buying a private gun and they just go into the friendly local gun store instead.

Sheldon
12-27-2007, 5:50 PM
I remember selling a pistol I had around 1988 or so and doing the transfer at a local police station. It didn't cost anything that I recall. We both showed up, I gave the pistol to the cop, he went into another room with the weapon and when he came back out a few minutes later knew my name (presumeably from running the serial number of the pistol, we did a litle paperwork and went on our merry way....no waiting period hold or anything from what I recall.

metalhead357
12-27-2007, 6:01 PM
They hate doing 15 minutes of work for $10.

That is understandable as I get paid $85 on a 1 hour minium..

Oh no doubts...Me and Xeno and Me and TPF hashed this stuff out ages ago. I think $10 for paperwork is more than fair *WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING* and with that lil' caveot also comes the bit about employeeeeeeeeeeees for the FFL. The FFL might make more per hour, but chances are the employees aint. $10 for 15 minutes of work equates to $40/hr if they know what they are doing and can actually do 4 in an hour....

I have no quams about $10 being fair for the moment. Unless/until the FFL's as a WHOLE step up (in much the same way Wes did early on with the OLL) and say the law is absurd as it is....then they get what put forth into changing it (and that'd be nothing). I HATE paying the fees as I was/am a child of a different era where the PPT route was NON-existant & cash & carry ruled the day.

I hate to sound sooooooo blasay about it; but this law SUCKS...and while it sucketh...they (the FFL) will have to bear the burden with the rest of us non-enlightend, non-annointed-with-BATF-holywater&DOJ-blessing, peons.

At this moment I cant even believe I'm willing to give an inch on anti-gun matters...but then again I'd be up for a WHOLE re-vamp of the system where a NICS instant check and a 10 day wait FOR THE FIRST GUN IN A CALANDER YEAR...with all the rest only being a Instant check and out the door: forget this 10 day maddness. If buffoons those with CCW's and those that buy a lot of guns. Get something closer to the rest of the Union where they dont have half of this crap..........

But in the meantime: If I gotta Pay $35 per....they gotta make due with $10 for 15 minutes worth of work.

If they cant do it in 15 minutes....thats thier problem with the employees they choose to hire/train or thier own predillictions to mediocraty in paperwork that they've dont countelesssssssssss times before.

Boomer1961
12-27-2007, 6:02 PM
I recently did a PPT at Gunrunners in Merced, it went OK but man they really don't like doing PPT's, she was telling us, she didn't want to offend us, but to her, it's not worth her license to do them and she only gets $10 to put her license on the line, I told her I understood it was a hassle for not much money, but as citizens we have to do a PPT to keep it legal,

During our conversations I had mentioned to her that there was a Fresno dealer who almost refused to do one for me, and I heard from some one else that they did refuse to do one, but I cant confirm that, she was livid, she said I should have reported them to the Ca DOJ, I said yes but they did do mine, so for me there was nothing to report, if they did refuse mine, that would have been different, she said it's dealers like that, that make her do PPT's for people who she would not normally have to do them for.

Well I left and when I got home I got the following email from the other member who I transfer my shot gun to saying that gunrunners had asked him several questions and had determined our transaction was not a PPT and it should have been $100, and they would not do another one for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's his email
She asked how we came into contact if we didn't already know each other. I told her we both frequent an online gun forum that allows the posting of "for sale" items and you listed the shotgun and I wanted it. She said that is wasn't a PPT and that it was an online transaction and she should have charged me $100, not $10 and to tell you that she wouldn't do that again. I didn't have to pay more than what I already paid. I don't know why she considered it an online transaction. It is no different than an ad in the classifieds of a newspaper.

I'd consider an online transaction as:I bought from a dealer or individual and had it shipped to her in which she would need to either fax or mail her FFL first. Then she'd take delivery and I'd do the proper paperwork.

I don't understand her thought process If I would have purchased a firearm off GunsAmerica and contacted her to provide her FFl to the seller, and have her receive the gun, then yes, it's not a PPT and she could charge me what ever she wants, but in this case, what is the difference between cal guns on line classifieds, or if he would have viewed it on line in the Fresno Bees classifieds? no transaction had taken place over the internet, only an agreement to meet and if we were both happy with the deal, we would then go into Gunrunners and do a PPT, the shot gun was not purchased online.


I vote that we make this lady the official PPT FFL for all Calguns!:D

It is now everyone's duty within her area to expressly go out of your way to do your PPT's at her shop.

When a merhcant complains allot and bickers and is a general pain in the ar$e about some type of transaction I make it a point to not do business with them except for the one thing that pi$$e$ them off, and I make it a point to do all of that kind of thing with them.

I say lets post a sticky with this ladies FFL info and make her the official CALGUNS FFL for PPT on this fourm.:D

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 6:12 PM
Oh no doubts...Me and Xeno and Me and TPF hashed this stuff out ages ago. I think $10 for paperwork is more than fair *WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING* and with that lil' caveot also comes the bit about employeeeeeeeeeeees for the FFL. The FFL might make more per hour, but chances are the employees aint. $10 for 15 minutes of work equates to $40/hr if they know what they are doing and can actually do 4 in an hour....

I have no quams about $10 being fair for the moment. Unless/until the FFL's as a WHOLE step up (in much the same way Wes did early on with the OLL) and say the law is absurd as it is....then they get what put forth into changing it (and that'd be nothing). I HATE paying the fees as I was/am a child of a different era where the PPT route was NON-existant & cash & carry ruled the day.

I hate to sound sooooooo blasay about it; but this law SUCKS...and while it sucketh...they (the FFL) will have to bear the burden with the rest of us non-enlightend, non-annointed-with-BATF-holywater&DOJ-blessing, peons.

At this moment I cant even believe I'm willing to give an inch on anti-gun matters...but then again I'd be up for a WHOLE re-vamp of the system where a NICS instant check and a 10 day wait FOR THE FIRST GUN IN A CALANDER YEAR...with all the rest only being a Instant check and out the door: forget this 10 day maddness. If buffoons those with CCW's and those that buy a lot of guns. Get something closer to the rest of the Union where they dont have half of this crap..........

But in the meantime: If I gotta Pay $35 per....they gotta make due with $10 for 15 minutes worth of work.

If they cant do it in 15 minutes....thats thier problem with the employees they choose to hire/train or thier own predillictions to mediocraty in paperwork that they've dont countelesssssssssss times before.

If a customer calls me out to fix their computer and it ends up being a power cord and it takes me 2 minutes to fix it, I charge them $85.00.

I think I go above and beyond because I do not charge for estimates; many companies charge travel time and charge for estimates.

It matters not if $10 is "enough" and "fair"; it is not up to the government to decide what my services are worth. Even if they capped it at $500 it would still not be right.

The reason they are forced to charge the $10 is to stop the monopoly that would exist if they did not require it. Because California law REQUIRES that PPTs go through a dealer, the argument is if there is no cap on PPT transfers dealers will charge too much and private citizens will just stop using a dealer and do it in a parking lot.

metalhead357
12-27-2007, 6:23 PM
If a customer calls me out to fix their computer and it ends up being a power cord and it takes me 2 minutes to fix it, I charge them $85.00.

Arn't you also taking part on the thread about morals and ethics? And you find that price to be fair & ethical for some old woman with a computer that doesn't know to check the cords before putting in a repair call????

It matters not if $10 is "enough" and "fair"; it is not up to the government to decide what my services are worth. Even if they capped it at $500 it would still not be right. WhileI agree for the private sector you would be right.....there is the little problem that this IS MANDATED by the state and FFL's *Must* do it; not quite the same analogy.....

The reason they are forced to charge the $10 is to stop the monopoly that would exist if they did not require it. Because California law REQUIRES that PPTs go through a dealer, the argument is if there is no cap on PPT transfers dealers will charge too much and private citizens will just stop using a dealer and do it in a parking lot. Oh no doubts, and that's why it should be made CHEAPER IMO, or the flip flop some have argued; $10 to the state on a PPT and $25 to the dealer...as the state essentially DOES NOTHING.

PanzerAce
12-27-2007, 7:29 PM
FYI guys, the Gunrunner in Merced is NOT a part of the chain, it has been there for like 30 years or something.

Unfortunately, the attitude the the OP posted about doesn't surprise me. I tried to talk to them about OLLs back in the early days and they refused to hear anything of it.

To the OP and to anyone that needs to do a PPT or anything in Merced: You are probably going to be better off going to Stone's Gun Shop on Martin Luther King, south of Hwy 99. They have told me that they will transfer anything if it is legal.

N6ATF
12-28-2007, 12:42 AM
Depends on what their own personal definition of legal is. FFL's opinions seem to vary from actual law. Not saying Stone's is good or bad, just that "legal" is an ambiguous term when used by FFLs these days.

ohsmily
12-28-2007, 12:53 AM
I vote that we make this lady the official PPT FFL for all Calguns!:D

It is now everyone's duty within her area to expressly go out of your way to do your PPT's at her shop.

When a merhcant complains allot and bickers and is a general pain in the ar$e about some type of transaction I make it a point to not do business with them except for the one thing that pi$$e$ them off, and I make it a point to do all of that kind of thing with them.

I say lets post a sticky with this ladies FFL info and make her the official CALGUNS FFL for PPT on this fourm.:D

I laughed out loud at that one.

Mike's Custom
12-28-2007, 11:10 AM
They hate doing 15 minutes of work for $10.

That is understandable as I get paid $85 on a 1 hour minium.

Sucks for them but the law that requires them to do it also prohibits private gun sales. That alone turns people off to buying a private gun and they just go into the friendly local gun store instead.

Some may not like doing PPTs because of the limited fee and the time it takes. It does take longer then 15 minutes and it does cost the FFL money. We have to make copies of CA IDs and provide copies of the gun safe affidavit or make copies of the receipts for your safe or the lock you have to have. We have to take thumb prints that are legible and make sure all the information is correct and hte 4473 is filled out correctly and then there is the liability a FFL has for the misuse of a firearm we made no money on. All of this is something we can lose our licenses over and maybe go to jail and pay fines for. I think everyone needs to stop complaining about FFLs and PPTs and be more then happy that there are dealers to even buy from. Also, a FFL dealer is restriced from selling a person more then one handgun per 30 day period but the same restriction is not put on PPTs and that is really unfair to a FFL. This not only limits how many sale or money a dealer can make in a year but restricts all customers from buying a deale they find at another store while they are under the 30 wait. I doubt that a car salesman would like to be told that his customers can only buy 1 car a month or a Target store told they have to limit their vacuum cleaner sales. How about the cattle industry being told they can only sell one cow to butcher to a grocery store per month?

FFLs are put under huge limitations and for some reason a lot of people seem to think everything is all the dealers fault. Are there bad dealers? Yes, I am sure there are but I also know there are bad customers that want to push a dealer into doing something that is guestionable like selling them HI-Cap mags in pieces so they can "rebuild" their magazines... wink wink. If you want to make a dealer happy don't put them in a situation that makes them uncomfortible. Funny, but I still people telling me how they went to Nevada and "found" some 17round mags for their glocks. Now how am I susposed to respond to them making me part of their crime? As a dealer I try to please all my customers but I have heard more stories about finding hi-cap magazines in the mail box or even worse.

I always do what I call "voting with my dollars". If I don't like a business or a product I don't spend money on it. I don't buy Coke products, I don't buy Levis and I don't shop at Urners for any reason.

gmcal
12-28-2007, 11:30 AM
Sure sounds like there was a misunderstanding in the conversation between the lady and the guy you bought the gun from. Did he bother to mention that is was a California forum and not an auction site?

Why not call her back and clear it up and then post the result?


Kruzr,

I am the buyer of the gun. She picked up that we didn't know each other and after the seller left she asked me how we came into contact. To paraphrase what I said, We are both members of an online gun forum that offers a for sale section for firearms. He was was selling a shotgun and I wanted it.

I can understand how she might think it is a firearms auction site but we met in person to do the transfer. It is no different than me answering an add in the local paper or if he was a guy from work. Regardless, we went in together and she didn't do anything extra than if he was my best friend whom I've known my whole life.

This is my first 12 gauge so I was going to buy some supplies and ammo from her, but after what she said about charging me more I decided to buy from my regular guy. For you guys that are FFL's keep that in mind. I'm very loyal to those shops who offer a fair price and good service. I don't expect anyone to kiss my ***, but I don't appreciate being made to feel like I'm not welcome or I'm bothering you and I speak with my money.

I did want to rent a Wilson CQB while I was there but she wouldn't allow me to do that since the seller had left. She has a 2 person policy for renting guns. That didn't bother me because that is fairly common, but I got the impression she really didn't want earn my money. Maybe she was having a bad day. She has one more chance to turn this into a positive experience.

brianm767
12-28-2007, 2:38 PM
Some may not like doing PPTs because of the limited fee and the time it takes. It does take longer then 15 minutes and it does cost the FFL money. We have to make copies of CA IDs and provide copies of the gun safe affidavit or make copies of the receipts for your safe or the lock you have to have. We have to take thumb prints that are legible and make sure all the information is correct and hte 4473 is filled out correctly and then there is the liability a FFL has for the misuse of a firearm we made no money on. All of this is something we can lose our licenses over and maybe go to jail and pay fines for. I think everyone needs to stop complaining about FFLs and PPTs and be more then happy that there are dealers to even buy from. Also, a FFL dealer is restriced from selling a person more then one handgun per 30 day period but the same restriction is not put on PPTs and that is really unfair to a FFL. This not only limits how many sale or money a dealer can make in a year but restricts all customers from buying a deale they find at another store while they are under the 30 wait. I doubt that a car salesman would like to be told that his customers can only buy 1 car a month or a Target store told they have to limit their vacuum cleaner sales. How about the cattle industry being told they can only sell one cow to butcher to a grocery store per month?

FFLs are put under huge limitations and for some reason a lot of people seem to think everything is all the dealers fault. Are there bad dealers? Yes, I am sure there are but I also know there are bad customers that want to push a dealer into doing something that is guestionable like selling them HI-Cap mags in pieces so they can "rebuild" their magazines... wink wink. If you want to make a dealer happy don't put them in a situation that makes them uncomfortible. Funny, but I still people telling me how they went to Nevada and "found" some 17round mags for their glocks. Now how am I susposed to respond to them making me part of their crime? As a dealer I try to please all my customers but I have heard more stories about finding hi-cap magazines in the mail box or even worse.

I always do what I call "voting with my dollars". If I don't like a business or a product I don't spend money on it. I don't buy Coke products, I don't buy Levis and I don't shop at Urners for any reason.

OK so Mike, I understand that it is a hassle for FFL's to do the transfers, I also understand it's not worth the $10 bucks you get, but in this case, are you saying you don't think I have a reason to complain when a dealer is trying to make us feel like we did something illegal or we pulled a fast one on her, and said I should have charged you $100 , and also basically, dont come back, I wont do another transfer for you?

if thats the case, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with you, I tried to and did every thing by the book, we were both very polite with the store, and their personnel, even when it was very apparent we weren't welcome in there, I even sympathiesd with the dealer , that its not worth the hassle for her. we did all we could to be nice and understanding, but with her attitude, I'm sorry, I feel I have the right to complain, and not because she doesn't want to do the PPT's, I understand that, and if I was a dealer I'd probably feel the same way, it's not that at all, it's because she basically said don't come back under the pretense we did some thing wrong, or pulled a fast one, which is not correct at all..

xbananax
12-28-2007, 3:05 PM
OK so Mike, I understand that it is a hassle for FFL's to do the transfers, I also understand it's not worth the $10 bucks you get, but in this case, are you saying you don't think I have a reason to complain when a dealer is trying to make us feel like we did something illegal or we pulled a fast one on her, and said I should have charged you $100 , and also basically, dont come back, I wont do another transfer for you?

if thats the case, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with you, I tried to and did every thing by the book, we were both very polite with the store, and their personnel, even when it was very apparent we weren't welcome in there, I even sympathiesd with the dealer , that its not worth the hassle for her. we did all we could to be nice and understanding, but with her attitude, I'm sorry, I feel I have the right to complain, and not because she doesn't want to do the PPT's, I understand that, and if I was a dealer I'd probably feel the same way, it's not that at all, it's because she basically said don't come back under the pretense we did some thing wrong, or pulled a fast one, which is not correct at all..

I think his response was to show both sides of the spectrum when it comes to PPTs, and why some FFL's are hesitant to offer them.

I understand the baggage FFL holders carry when it comes to PPT's, which is why I usually try to purchase some ammo or accessories at the time to help out the merchant.

But I would definitely not do business with a store that treated me the same way you were treated. Thats just bad business.

Soldier415
12-28-2007, 3:16 PM
Has anyone contacted Gunrunners management to see what they have to say about this situation?

brianm767
12-28-2007, 3:21 PM
I think his response was to show both sides of the spectrum when it comes to PPTs, and why some FFL's are hesitant to offer them.

I understand the baggage FFL holders carry when it comes to PPT's, which is why I usually try to purchase some ammo or accessories at the time to help out the merchant.

But I would definitely not do business with a store that treated me the same way you were treated. Thats just bad business.

I totally agree with you, I feel their pain, and understand their situation, but we have no choice but to have them to do our PPT's, giving both our situations, I think we should have been treated better, and great ideal, next time I'll drop a few bucks at the time of transfer.

I did plan on purchasing a rifle from them in the near future, needless to say I wont be going back there,

E Pluribus Unum
12-28-2007, 3:47 PM
Some may not like doing PPTs because of the limited fee and the time it takes. It does take longer then 15 minutes and it does cost the FFL money. We have to make copies of CA IDs and provide copies of the gun safe affidavit or make copies of the receipts for your safe or the lock you have to have. We have to take thumb prints that are legible and make sure all the information is correct and hte 4473 is filled out correctly and then there is the liability a FFL has for the misuse of a firearm we made no money on. All of this is something we can lose our licenses over and maybe go to jail and pay fines for. I think everyone needs to stop complaining about FFLs and PPTs and be more then happy that there are dealers to even buy from. Also, a FFL dealer is restriced from selling a person more then one handgun per 30 day period but the same restriction is not put on PPTs and that is really unfair to a FFL. This not only limits how many sale or money a dealer can make in a year but restricts all customers from buying a deale they find at another store while they are under the 30 wait. I doubt that a car salesman would like to be told that his customers can only buy 1 car a month or a Target store told they have to limit their vacuum cleaner sales. How about the cattle industry being told they can only sell one cow to butcher to a grocery store per month?

FFLs are put under huge limitations and for some reason a lot of people seem to think everything is all the dealers fault. Are there bad dealers? Yes, I am sure there are but I also know there are bad customers that want to push a dealer into doing something that is guestionable like selling them HI-Cap mags in pieces so they can "rebuild" their magazines... wink wink. If you want to make a dealer happy don't put them in a situation that makes them uncomfortible. Funny, but I still people telling me how they went to Nevada and "found" some 17round mags for their glocks. Now how am I susposed to respond to them making me part of their crime? As a dealer I try to please all my customers but I have heard more stories about finding hi-cap magazines in the mail box or even worse.

I always do what I call "voting with my dollars". If I don't like a business or a product I don't spend money on it. I don't buy Coke products, I don't buy Levis and I don't shop at Urners for any reason.


I understand what you are saying Mike; it sucks, I know it sucks. One thing you seem to be missing is that if dealers were free to charge whatever they wanted for PPTs it would become prohibitively expensive to go through a dealer.

Let us say all of the dealers charged a reasonable fee of $100 to do a PPT. Now let us say I have a cheaper single shot 12 guage shotgun I wanted to sell for $100.00. If I sold it to a local person and you tacked on your $100 PPT fee it would cost $200.00. As a dealer I am sure that you can stock a cheap single shot 12 gauge for at or close to $200.00.

If I brought the guy into your store as required by law and he saw a brand new shotgun for $200.00 on your shelf then why would he buy my used one? I would lose the sale in a heart beat.

Next time I tried to sell the gun I would not use a dealer; I would sell it cash and carry. Everyone knows that the DOJ can only keep records on long guns for 30 days; tracking down cash and carry transactions on non-stolen firearms would be nearly impossable. To disuade people from doing this they had to make the PPT easily affordable or no one would use it.

This supercedes your right to make money. I have seen dealer pricing as I used to date an employee of a gun shop. I know that on some things you make a killing and on some things you are lucky to make 10%. PPTs are one of the things you must give up to have access to the lucrative firearms business.

gmcal
12-28-2007, 5:27 PM
Has anyone contacted Gunrunners management to see what they have to say about this situation?

I'll report back after I pick up my firearm on 1-5-08. They will be closed for the holidays and won't open until the 5th. Since they still have my gun I'd appreciate it if everyone can wait before they contact them regarding this issue. In all likelyhood, it can be cleared up easily.

For the record, my preferred dealer and myself didn't get off to a great start either. But I believe in giving second chances, and he has given me good customer service since then (I've also recommended him to family and friends and my estimate is he has made close to 10k from myself and those I recommended over the last 3 years). Everyone is entitled to a bad day or misstep every now and again. I hope that is what this was.

I can recognize the fact the PPT's are not profitable nor a pleasure for FFL's, but at the same time they should recognize that they are not profitable nor a pleasure for consumers. We're in the same boat. If the FFL makes it a positive transaction, I'll make it worth their while and buy extra items.

brianm767
12-28-2007, 5:37 PM
I'll report back after I pick up my firearm on 1-5-08. They will be closed for the holidays and won't open until the 5th. Since they still have my gun I'd appreciate it if everyone can wait before they contact them regarding this issue. In all likelyhood, it can be cleared up easily.

For the record, my preferred dealer and myself didn't get off to a great start either. But I believe in giving second chances, and he has given me good customer service since then (I've also recommended him to family and friends and my estimate is he has made close to 10k from myself and those I recommended over the last 3 years). Everyone is entitled to a bad day or misstep every now and again. I hope that is what this was.

I can recognize the fact the PPT's are not profitable nor a pleasure for FFL's, but at the same time they should recognize that they are not profitable nor a pleasure for consumers. We're in the same boat. If the FFL makes it a positive transaction, I'll make it worth their while and buy extra items.


Also for the record, the lady in question is the management/owner/FFL

The store in question is a Mom & Pop store, not affiliated with the other Gunrunners chain.

larryb
12-28-2007, 6:41 PM
Out of curiosity how come you guys did not go through Rob at Breco? I doubt you would have had any of these problems with him. Support the ones that supprt you and screw the haters.

gmcal
12-28-2007, 6:48 PM
I've never heard of Breco. Where is it located?

larryb
12-28-2007, 7:07 PM
I've never heard of Breco. Where is it located?
He is located in Clovis. Awesome friendly guy to deal with.

brianm767
12-28-2007, 7:09 PM
Out of curiosity how come you guys did not go through Rob at Breco? I doubt you would have had any of these problems with him. Support the ones that supprt you and screw the haters.

Because I live in Clovis, actually only a few miles from Breco, but the buyer lives North of Merced, we came to an agreement that made it worth my while to meet in Merced.

For any transactions in my area, I will only use Rod from now on, only met him once, nice and helpful guy,and his his prices are the best in the Fresno area, not to mention how highly recommended he is from all his customers. and he has OLL's , only person I've found in the valley who will touch them.

bohoki
12-28-2007, 7:58 PM
I recently did a PPT at Gunrunners in Merced, it went OK but man they really don't like doing PPT's, she was telling us, she didn't want to offend us, but to her, it's not worth her license to do them and she only gets $10 to put her license on the line, I told her I understood it was a hassle for not much money, but as citizens we have to do a PPT to keep it legal,

if a buyer and seller show up to do a transfer at a gunstore and are turned down i cannot believe that she is willing to loose her california permits over $10

of course if buyer and seller weren't at some time present to fill out their portion of the form then i wouldn't complain i knew a guy who ran a kitchen table ffl and he did me the favor of in-state mail in transfers but that was a favor he was not obligated

Moonclip
12-29-2007, 1:28 AM
I'll report back after I pick up my firearm on 1-5-08. They will be closed for the holidays and won't open until the 5th. Since they still have my gun I'd appreciate it if everyone can wait before they contact them regarding this issue. In all likelyhood, it can be cleared up easily.

For the record, my preferred dealer and myself didn't get off to a great start either. But I believe in giving second chances, and he has given me good customer service since then (I've also recommended him to family and friends and my estimate is he has made close to 10k from myself and those I recommended over the last 3 years). Everyone is entitled to a bad day or misstep every now and again. I hope that is what this was.

I can recognize the fact the PPT's are not profitable nor a pleasure for FFL's, but at the same time they should recognize that they are not profitable nor a pleasure for consumers. We're in the same boat. If the FFL makes it a positive transaction, I'll make it worth their while and buy extra items.

Well put.

DANGERCLOSE
12-29-2007, 1:56 AM
living in the area and having used gunrunners in the past, i can at least tell you that i have stopped doing business with them at all. this also goes for every one that i know. they have been shady in a lot of dealings. they have been trying to sell the store for quite some time now. they recently lost their ffl and the woman just got it back. i use stones gun shop in merced, crt in modesto, and breco in fresno. rob has been the best and i have sent 5 of my friends to him when they bought their guns. he has great deals and works with you on stuff. havent been to his new shop since he opened it. i will be heading down that way to buy an m&p 40 soon. breco is your best bet, and he does oll.

CALI-gula
12-29-2007, 2:47 AM
FYI guys, the Gunrunner in Merced is NOT a part of the chain, it has been there for like 30 years or something.

Thanks for clarifying. By the name, I was thinking of Gunrruners in Duarte, CA throughout the whole thread - and also thinking in all the times I had been there over the past year, I never saw a woman behind the counter.

NOW it makes sense.

.

ybz
12-29-2007, 3:26 AM
with all due respect to store-front FFL, i NEVER understood why they would whine about doing a PPT... yes, i know it's only $10 blah, blah, blah, BUT it brings 2 people into YOUR store, usually 1 person who has never been there... that is part or marketing/advertising... i'm sure (but i could be mistaken) that if you were not there to do the PPT she would be sitting around, so it's not as if she's loosing money... i would have to say, my personal experience with PPT has been positive, and often time i meet someone at the store, they end up buying something there... the real shameful part about FFL like the one the OP is talking about, is that she'll have to do the PPT anyway, so why not do it with a smile and drum up traffic to your store... guns shop owners really need to attend some marketing courses…

audiophil2
12-29-2007, 8:12 AM
I did a PPT a few months back at an FFL I've never been to before. Due to the great customer service and selection I bought a couple guns that easily netted the FFL another $200 from me and I will go back to buy more guns from him. 20 mins for the original PPT got him $10. 20 minutes for the second DROS a few weeks later got him about $210 and another loyal customer. I have 3 FFLs within 8 miles from my house but I would rather drive the 20 miles to give as much sales to him as possible.

Mike's Custom
12-29-2007, 11:24 AM
with all due respect to store-front FFL, i NEVER understood why they would whine about doing a PPT... yes, i know it's only $10 blah, blah, blah, BUT it brings 2 people into YOUR store, usually 1 person who has never been there... that is part or marketing/advertising... i'm sure (but i could be mistaken) that if you were not there to do the PPT she would be sitting around, so it's not as if she's loosing money... i would have to say, my personal experience with PPT has been positive, and often time i meet someone at the store, they end up buying something there... the real shameful part about FFL like the one the OP is talking about, is that she'll have to do the PPT anyway, so why not do it with a smile and drum up traffic to your store... guns shop owners really need to attend some marketing courses…

As a FFL holder I agree with this completely. Usually it is one of my customers that bring is a new guy he is buying from or selling to. In most cases I get a new customer. Are PPTs a pain in the arse for $10? Yes, but in some cases there are benefits too.

Gshock
12-29-2007, 11:47 AM
with all due respect to store-front FFL, i NEVER understood why they would whine about doing a PPT... yes, i know it's only $10 blah, blah, blah, BUT it brings 2 people into YOUR store, usually 1 person who has never been there... that is part or marketing/advertising... i'm sure (but i could be mistaken) that if you were not there to do the PPT she would be sitting around, so it's not as if she's loosing money... i would have to say, my personal experience with PPT has been positive, and often time i meet someone at the store, they end up buying something there... the real shameful part about FFL like the one the OP is talking about, is that she'll have to do the PPT anyway, so why not do it with a smile and drum up traffic to your store... guns shop owners really need to attend some marketing courses…

+1 FFL's should not complain about doing a PPT, it brings customers into the store and if the customers are treated well, there is a good chance they will spend more money in the store. I buy guns, ammo, accesories from a local shop that I could definitely get cheaper online because they are friendly and close, and I would like them to stay in business.

xenophobe
12-29-2007, 9:56 PM
Um, transactions run as PPTs do not have to be simultaneous face to face...

(1) consignment sales, paperwork for seller's done already/different time than when the buyer's there.

Even though the principal is the same, in SJ and many other cities, a pawnbroker report must be filed for a consignment firearm.

A dealer is also not limited to the fees he may charge for a consignment.

(2) Also, PPTs can be run across CA between two residents/two FFLs as a 'gun show transaction': the first CA FFL gets the gun from the seller and manually captures the ID info and sends the gun to the 2nd CA FFL, where the buyer completes the PPT paperwork.

And that is technically not a PPT, it's a gun show transfer and is also specified as such on the DROS, and again, a dealer is not limited to the fee he can charge to do this.

Moonclip
12-30-2007, 1:10 AM
guns shop owners really need to attend some marketing courses…

I've noticed this too. It may just be me, but many gunshop owner/employees are social retards for lack of a better term. They may know something about guns, but next to nothing on how to relate to human beings or how to run a business.

They may have a passion for the shooting sports, but that will only get you so far with poor business skills and people skills.

Boomer1961
12-30-2007, 11:09 AM
I've noticed this too. It may just be me, but many gunshop owner/employees are social retards for lack of a better term. They may know something about guns, but next to nothing on how to relate to human beings or how to run a business.

They may have a passion for the shooting sports, but that will only get you so far with poor business skills and people skills.

Ya,

I liked that Antioch Gun Store that always hired those hotties at the gun shows. They would flirt with ya and touch ya smiling and winking and turning about showing a little T&A. Those gals would work the deals and the fellas were only there to answer the technical questions and to do the paper work. There booth was always real popular. Don't know what happened to them as I went to a couple of gun shows this year after taking many years off and I no longer see those hot chicks anywheres abouts.

Maybe another big gun show dealer can pick up on this business model so we can have a little eye candy to look at when we go to the gun shows.

MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

:party: :jump:

:jump: :party:

:party: :jump:

GTKrockeTT
12-30-2007, 11:28 AM
What a crock! During the lower craze those guys were selling $200 lowers along with CWS and the rest of them.

Really... To hell with gunrunners. The service sucks, high prices and bad attitudes.
In their store, if you aint' a cop, you aint' sh.. well, yah kno. ;)

wrong Gunrunners...re-read the thread. ;)

Mike's Custom
12-30-2007, 1:26 PM
Even though the principal is the same, in SJ and many other cities, a pawnbroker report must be filed for a consignment firearm.

A dealer is also not limited to the fees he may charge for a consignment.



And that is technically not a PPT, it's a gun show transfer and is also specified as such on the DROS, and again, a dealer is not limited to the fee he can charge to do this.

Nope, that is a PPT. At a Gun show you are charging the seller a fee if he is a FFL or dealer but the Gun Show Transaction is there because not all FFL dealers have access to the internet at the gun show. All the GST form does is specify that the firearm was sold at a gun show. Also, if you notice on the back of the 4473 under where the buyer signs and dates the form, there is also a block for entering "Location of sale if at a gun show or qualifying event". For CA it is a way to keep track of firearms sold at gun shows and repeat seller and buyers that may need to have FFLs because of frequent buying and selling. I know of 1 guy in Shafter that was prosecuted for this and he had transferd a couple of them through me so the DOJ and BATF came a looked at my records for proof of his activities and I was subpoenaed and had to go to Fresno to appear in Federal court.

pepsi2451
01-06-2008, 6:54 PM
I'll report back after I pick up my firearm on 1-5-08.

So any news?

ar15barrels
01-07-2008, 12:35 AM
In teh "old days" before we had to go through a dealer for a transfer, the federal law was that the person receiving the firearm must be "known" to you. According to the then ATF, you were susposed to know the person you were selling/transfering the firearm too.

Eaxctly.
At a gun show, you meet a person, notice he has a gun to sell and look at it.
You may have only known him a few minutes before you complete a transaction, but you "know" him before the transaction goes down.

At least that's how it works in free states. ;)

ar15barrels
01-07-2008, 12:45 AM
The reason they are forced to charge the $10 is to stop the monopoly that would exist if they did not require it. Because California law REQUIRES that PPTs go through a dealer, the argument is if there is no cap on PPT transfers dealers will charge too much and private citizens will just stop using a dealer and do it in a parking lot.

What's absurd is that "they" assume "we" would just break the law over the transfer cost.
What "they" should do is create some sort of gov't run method of doing private party transfers.
Police stations with evidence lockers could certainly handle it.

gmcal
01-07-2008, 1:04 AM
So any news?

Picked it up on 1-5, explained that it was not an online auction site and she (the owner/FFL/manager) still claims it is an internet transaction since we came into contact via the internet. I emailed the DOJ to see what they have to say will report back when I hear from them. I did not report them, or even mention their name, just asking the DOJ for clarification between a PPT and internet transaction. Also, she did not attempt to charge me any extra money, just the $10. Service and attitude is crap though and I spent no extra money will unlikely ever go back, unless it is for another PPT:43:

Mike's Custom
01-07-2008, 11:53 AM
Picked it up on 1-5, explained that it was not an online auction site and she (the owner/FFL/manager) still claims it is an internet transaction since we came into contact via the internet. I emailed the DOJ to see what they have to say will report back when I hear from them. I did not report them, or even mention their name, just asking the DOJ for clarification between a PPT and internet transaction. Also, she did not attempt to charge me any extra money, just the $10. Service and attitude is crap though and I spent no extra money will unlikely ever go back, unless it is for another PPT:43:


Actually, there is no such thing as a internet transaction in CA. There is no difference between you, as a customer, ordering a firearm and a FFL ordering a firearm. The Firearm is shipped to a FFL and handled as a Dealer Sale. Since you are a resident of CA you can not purchase any firearm in another state and no FFL in any state can sell a hand gun to someone that is not a resident of that state 90 days prior to the sale. Since you can not purchase a firearm from out of state and it is considered a Dealer Sale and a dealer must collect tax. I know, some do and some don't collect tax but it is their license and their problem. A dealer sale is taxable since you, a non FFL, can not purchase a firearm in any other state. So, there is no such thing as a internet transfer.

brianm767
02-25-2008, 10:58 AM
I finally got my response from the Ca DOJ, and it only took two months!! I must have been on the fast track!

response bellow, along with my orig email at the bottom.

-----
From: Leslie McGovern

Subject: Re: Web Mail to Bureau of Firearms


Dear Mr. M:

In regard to your e-mail inquiry, a private party transfer is a transfer between two California residents. Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer.

Should you have any further questions, you may contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887.

Sincerely,

Leslie McGovern, Analyst
Bureau of Firearms



12/27/2007 1:50 PM >>>

Name: Brian

Message: I have a question regarding a PPT.

I recently placed an online ad for a shot gun that I wanted to sell, it was on a gun forum that I often frequent, Another member contacted me and said he was interested in seeing and "possibly" purchasing the shot gun form me,

We agreed on a meeting place and if we both were happy with the deal we would go into a local gun store and do the face to face PPT which we did.

I had left the store before the other guy and when I got home I got an email from him stating that the FFl had determined our PPT was not legally a PPT and it was an online transaction and she should have charged us $100 and she said she will not do any more PPT for us.

I understand that if I was to purchase a firearm online, and have a FFL send a copy of their license to the seller , have the firearm sent to the FFl to receive it to do the transfer for me, that is an online purchase and the FFl could charge me what ever they wanted,

But this was simply an online add where the purchaser saw the add, agreed to meet in person to discuss the sell and possibly buy, which he did, no transaction took place on line, how is this an online transaction? how is it any different than if I had placed the add in the Sac Bee and the buyer viewed it online and agreed to meet me in person to do a FTF PPT?

Am I missing some thing? or is the FFL wrong?

Thank You




.

brianm767
02-25-2008, 1:20 PM
I finally got my response from the Ca DOJ, and it only took two months!! I must have been on the fast track!

response bellow, along with my orig email at the bottom.

-----
From: Leslie McGovern

Subject: Re: Web Mail to Bureau of Firearms


Dear Mr. M:

In regard to your e-mail inquiry, a private party transfer is a transfer between two California residents. Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer.

Should you have any further questions, you may contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887.

Sincerely,

Leslie McGovern, Analyst
Bureau of Firearms



12/27/2007 1:50 PM >>>

Name: Brian

Message: I have a question regarding a PPT.

I recently placed an online ad for a shot gun that I wanted to sell, it was on a gun forum that I often frequent, Another member contacted me and said he was interested in seeing and "possibly" purchasing the shot gun form me,

We agreed on a meeting place and if we both were happy with the deal we would go into a local gun store and do the face to face PPT which we did.

I had left the store before the other guy and when I got home I got an email from him stating that the FFl had determined our PPT was not legally a PPT and it was an online transaction and she should have charged us $100 and she said she will not do any more PPT for us.

I understand that if I was to purchase a firearm online, and have a FFL send a copy of their license to the seller , have the firearm sent to the FFl to receive it to do the transfer for me, that is an online purchase and the FFl could charge me what ever they wanted,

But this was simply an online add where the purchaser saw the add, agreed to meet in person to discuss the sell and possibly buy, which he did, no transaction took place on line, how is this an online transaction? how is it any different than if I had placed the add in the Sac Bee and the buyer viewed it online and agreed to meet me in person to do a FTF PPT?

Am I missing some thing? or is the FFL wrong?

Thank You




.

Leslie from the DOJ also emailed back and offered to call Gunrunners in Merced, not the chain, and talk to them about a PPT, I said go right ahead, I'll let you know what she says,

Soldier415
02-25-2008, 1:23 PM
Leslie from the DOJ also emailed back and offered to call Gunrunners in Merced, not the chain, and talk to them about a PPT, I said go right ahead, I'll let you know what she says,

Hmmm. tagging to see how this plays out.

ar15barrels
02-25-2008, 1:24 PM
Leslie from the DOJ also emailed back and offered to call Gunrunners in Merced, not the chain, and talk to them about a PPT, I said go right ahead, I'll let you know what she says,

Just a suggestion, but you might consider changing the thread title to "Gunrunners (in Merced) said they will not do another PPT for us"
to avoid people that do not even bother to read the topic from getting confused with Gunrunners in Duarte. ;)

brianm767
02-25-2008, 1:31 PM
Just a suggestion, but you might consider changing the thread title to "Gunrunners (in Merced) said they will not do another PPT for us"
to avoid people that do not even bother to read the topic from getting confused with Gunrunners in Duarte. ;)

Done,

Good ideal, i didn't even know there was a different Gunrunners when I first made the post, I'm in the Central valley, and I never heard of the other gunrunners.

Tankhatch
02-25-2008, 1:48 PM
FFl's should not scream about $10 ptp fee,,, all sales of modern guns must go thru a ffl now, so on the big picture, ffl's now make money by not only getting the selling fee's but are also now getting transfers fee's that are now required and are unregulated as to how much they can charge for their service. In the past (1980's) they only made money by selling guns. Point is,,,, they got more business $$$ now,,,, than they had $$$ before.

Mike's Custom
02-25-2008, 4:17 PM
Eaxctly.
At a gun show, you meet a person, notice he has a gun to sell and look at it.
You may have only known him a few minutes before you complete a transaction, but you "know" him before the transaction goes down.

At least that's how it works in free states. ;)

The part where I posted "known to you" does not apply to CA since all transactions must go through a FFL except for PPT CCRs and CCRs that are old enough for a FFL to sell without a DROS. But, in other states the "know to you" was meant to keep firearms out of felons hands. In other states where you can just hand a used firearm to another person and your done, you are supposed to know that the person receiving the firearm is NOT a felon. At one time way back when, it was believed that all you had to do was ask the person buying the gun if he was a felon. Well, we all know how the felon would answer that one.

Again, I never was arguing with anyone about a FFL PPT was a pain in the arse. I was just pointing out that it is. Like anything else, if there was not a set fee then some dealers would make their fee so high that nobody would use them or if that was their only FFL within a reasonable distance they would be hostage to the high fee. It is funny, but the DOJ agents that I have talked all agree that the $10 is not fair and should be higher. At least based on a decent hourly shop rate. I will gladly do PPTs and I don't complain about it. It is part of what I must to do stay a firearms dealer.

Gryff
02-25-2008, 5:02 PM
She's an idiot. Educate her, and if she argues, ask her to spell her name for you so that you get it correct in the report you file with the CADOJ.

We need all the gunshops we can get, but some of these business owners forget that they have obligations to things other than just their own profit. Part of the cost of doing business as a gun dealer is putting up with the transfers that are mandated by the state.

On the other hand, it never hurts to throw them a bone by poiniting out that you are going to pick up some ammo or accessories while in doing the PPT. Point out that putting up with their frustration helps get them business that actually IS profitable.

monkey
02-25-2008, 7:20 PM
The FFL biting the bullet and accepting the $10 fee for a PPT is setting up the next transaction where the customer, when treated well, will come back for other purchases. As it stands, Gunrunners (Merced) has lost at least 2 customers (probably more thanks to this internet forum) over not wanting to do a rather simple PPT. Penny-wise pound-foolish...

And as far as her lack of understanding on CA law regarding PPTs, this is the most egregious part of the story. FFLs are agents of the state and are required to know all applicable federal and state laws pertaining to the use of the license. I cannot express how sick and tired I am of walking into a gun shop, asking about this or that only to be drawn into an unbelievably and inexcusably ignorant conversation about CA or federal law. The only upside to this phenomenon is that they tend to be wrong toward the safe side. Thankfully, more often than not, they'll be incorrect in claiming something is illegal. At least this is so ignorantly conservative as to keep the customer safe from legal harm.

FEDUPWBS
02-25-2008, 8:19 PM
The FFL biting the bullet and accepting the $10 fee for a PPT is setting up the next transaction where the customer, when treated well, will come back for other purchases. As it stands, Gunrunners (Merced) has lost at least 2 customers (probably more thanks to this internet forum) over not wanting to do a rather simple PPT. Penny-wise pound-foolish...

And as far as her lack of understanding on CA law regarding PPTs, this is the most egregious part of the story. FFLs are agents of the state and are required to know all applicable federal and state laws pertaining to the use of the license. I cannot express how sick and tired I am of walking into a gun shop, asking about this or that only to be drawn into an unbelievably and inexcusably ignorant conversation about CA or federal law. The only upside to this phenomenon is that they tend to be wrong toward the safe side. Thankfully, more often than not, they'll be incorrect in claiming something is illegal. At least this is so ignorantly conservative as to keep the customer safe from legal harm.

Yep, I say it till Im blue in the face. But people spend $ w/ these FFLs because it doesnt effect them (yet).

SVT-40
02-25-2008, 10:44 PM
Doing PPT's is sometimes a pain especially if you are alone in the shop. One other issue many of you have not considered is during the 10 day waiting period the FFL has to store the firearm. That means taking the liability if it were to be stolen in a burglary or robbery. So the FFL has to have enough excess storage space to be sure he has enough room just in case he has to store these PPT firearms.


The FFL cannot plan for these events and thus has to keep space allocated just in case PPT firearms are brought into the shop. That means buying an additional safe and not having the space for other items.

On the plus side of PPT's you do get new customers into the shop. I always try to be as pleasant as possible in hopes the transferee's will do additional business, but there are no guarantees.


The only way a dealer can legally avoid doing PPT's is if the store doesn't sell that class of firearms.

As an example Turners does not sell concealable firearms (pistols and revolvers) because they don't sell these type of firearms they are not compelled to do PPT's on concealable firearms. They are however compelled to do them on rifles and shotguns.

Jstgone
07-28-2012, 9:18 PM
If you go to Gunrunner's in Merced these days you will find a very helpful atmosphere. They are doing PPT's no problem.

TKM
07-28-2012, 9:35 PM
Why waste your first post replying to a thread from 2007?

Gallant makes insightful helpful posts.

Goofus digs so deep into the necro-web he may as well be a black wizard.

p7m8jg
07-28-2012, 9:38 PM
I think Gunrunners has changed hands recently. New owners. When I go there to shoot they're as friendly as can be. Hope this from 2007 doesn't reflect on the new people.

gunprofit
07-29-2012, 12:10 AM
Face it, dealer hate PPT. There is no money in it and it is a huge waste of their time. Next time you do a PPT tell the dealer up front you know they can't make a living off it and pay them a fair amount of say $75.00. Problem solved!

TKM
07-29-2012, 12:13 AM
Face it, dealer hate PPT. There is no money in it and it is a huge waste of their time. Next time you do a PPT tell the dealer up front you know they can't make a living off it and pay them a fair amount of say $75.00. Problem solved!

Wrong, next.

freonr22
07-29-2012, 12:42 AM
weird

tenpercentfirearms
07-29-2012, 8:24 AM
Why on earth would you necro post this? I was reading the beginning and Bill Wiese says remote PPTs are valid and I am thinking, "Is he smoking crack?" Then I see it was from 5 years ago.

gunprofit
07-29-2012, 8:59 AM
Where do Calgunners get off thinking that if they give a dealer $10.00 for a PPT that the dealer has to kiss their ring finger and the ground they walk on. DEALERS HATE CALGUNNERS AND THEIR PPT. They are a pain the the butt. They never buy anything and expect everything. Oh, sure they lie their butts off saying they buy, but the truth is they never do. Calgunners have a "sense of entitlement". I give you $10.00 and you suck my >>>>>>. And if you don't, I get on the web and tell everyone in the world that you don't give customer service. Heck, what would you do for a lousy 10 bucks? You can't even buy lunch at McDonalds for that anymore. Sooner or later when the dealers have had enough of calgunners and their ppts, they will get together and have their reps pass legislation correcting this situation. Calgunners call it a "Marketplace" and that's what it is and has become, a gun marketplace. I personally know guys who buy, resale, all the time to make a profit. That's what the dealers will point out. Calguns has facilitated a marketplace for guys to buy, sell, firearms. The fee needs to be increased accordingly. What astounds me is the attitude of calgunners. Like Boomer1961 saying that we should all go their and do our PPTs and that would fix her. Where in the heck does he get off thinking he can punish someone and force someone to do what he wants them to do. That kind of attitude from calgunners is what this is all about. That's why dealers hate them!

tenpercentfirearms
07-29-2012, 9:30 AM
Where do Calgunners get off thinking that if they give a dealer $10.00 for a PPT that the dealer has to kiss their ring finger and the ground they walk on. DEALERS HATE CALGUNNERS AND THEIR PPT. They are a pain the the butt. They never buy anything and expect everything. Oh, sure they lie their butts off saying they buy, but the truth is they never do. Calgunners have a "sense of entitlement". I give you $10.00 and you suck my >>>>>>. And if you don't, I get on the web and tell everyone in the world that you don't give customer service. Heck, what would you do for a lousy 10 bucks? You can't even buy lunch at McDonalds for that anymore. Sooner or later when the dealers have had enough of calgunners and their ppts, they will get together and have their reps pass legislation correcting this situation. Calgunners call it a "Marketplace" and that's what it is and has become, a gun marketplace. I personally know guys who buy, resale, all the time to make a profit. That's what the dealers will point out. Calguns has facilitated a marketplace for guys to buy, sell, firearms. The fee needs to be increased accordingly. What astounds me is the attitude of calgunners. Like Boomer1961 saying that we should all go their and do our PPTs and that would fix her. Where in the heck does he get off thinking he can punish someone and force someone to do what he wants them to do. That kind of attitude from calgunners is what this is all about. That's why dealers hate them!

The problem with your rant is that the law requires dealers process PPTs because the law mandates all transaction (for the most part) must be through a dealer. So dealers can't really complain that they don't make enough money for PPTs when it is part of being a gun dealer. Well I mean they can, but no one is going to care and I believe rightfully so.

Personally, I don't make a PPT a big deal. I try and get their paperwork taken care of and finished in a quick manner and then invite them to look around. PPTs are hardly the big deal some dealers make them out to be.

Calgunners might be all of those things you said, but what does that have to do with me processing PPTs in accordance with the law? Calgunners can make money left and right, but that means nothing to me as when two guys come in to do a PPT, it doesn't matter where they came from, who they are, or what they are doing. If they make their request in writing signed by both parties, I must complete the PPT upon request. It is that simple.

CSACANNONEER
07-29-2012, 9:31 AM
Where do Calgunners get off thinking that if they give a dealer $10.00 for a PPT that the dealer has to kiss their ring finger and the ground they walk on. DEALERS HATE CALGUNNERS AND THEIR PPT. They are a pain the the butt. They never buy anything and expect everything. Oh, sure they lie their butts off saying they buy, but the truth is they never do. Calgunners have a "sense of entitlement". I give you $10.00 and you suck my >>>>>>. And if you don't, I get on the web and tell everyone in the world that you don't give customer service. Heck, what would you do for a lousy 10 bucks? You can't even buy lunch at McDonalds for that anymore. Sooner or later when the dealers have had enough of calgunners and their ppts, they will get together and have their reps pass legislation correcting this situation. Calgunners call it a "Marketplace" and that's what it is and has become, a gun marketplace. I personally know guys who buy, resale, all the time to make a profit. That's what the dealers will point out. Calguns has facilitated a marketplace for guys to buy, sell, firearms. The fee needs to be increased accordingly. What astounds me is the attitude of calgunners. Like Boomer1961 saying that we should all go their and do our PPTs and that would fix her. Where in the heck does he get off thinking he can punish someone and force someone to do what he wants them to do. That kind of attitude from calgunners is what this is all about. That's why dealers hate them!

Oh, dealers hate calgunners and PPTs. Well, first of all, I don't know any decent FFLs who hate me. There might be one or two that don't like me because, I've made my feelings known about their bad CS or illegal activities. But, I don't give them business anyway. As far as hating PPTs, no one likes them. However, the law is clear and both seller, buyer and FFL are bound by it. A PPT takes less than 10 minutes at any semi-compitent FFL. Now, if you only include the $10 fee and forget the free advertising (I don't know how much it costs in advertising to FORCE two people to visit a shop) that's $60/hr or a bit over $120K per year to do nothing but PPTs all day.

My last PPT was for a $90 Highpoint. Most shops would have thought I couldn't afford anything else. Addax laughed at me but understood I knew what I was buying and why (just a toy). As soon as it was done (about 7 minutes), I ordered one of their billet lowers from them. I also introduced another calgunner to their shop and their great customer service.

Anyway, please tell us which shop you own so that we will all avoid spending any money, on PPT or anything else, there. BTW, I happen to own more than a few non budget firearms too. I have several scopes that individually are worth more than a couple of my cars. So, again, please let me know where your shop is so, I won't accidently waste your time by visiting it.

gunprofit
07-29-2012, 9:49 AM
I don't own a store. I'm not a dealer. It does amaze me the righteous holier than thou attitude tenpercent and csacannoneer take with the "its the law" and the "it takes less than 10 minutes by a competent dealer" bullcrap! hahahaha. What a joke.

CSACANNONEER
07-29-2012, 9:57 AM
I don't own a store. I'm not a dealer. It does amaze me the righteous holier than thou attitude tenpercent and csacannoneer take with the "its the law" and the "it takes less than 10 minutes by a competent dealer" bullcrap! hahahaha. What a joke.

Maybe you've never been to a compitent gun shop before? Why don't you tell us how long it should take and why every dealer accepted doing PPTs as a part of their business before they got or renewed their license. Do you understand that no one has forced anyone to do a PPT against their will? If a FFL doesn't want to deal with PPTs, they are free to close or move to another state. The simple fact is that they choose to be FFLs in Ca and therefore choose to do PPTs for $10 each. Isn't America great? Everyone is free to make choices and later beach about how their choices suck.

gunprofit
07-29-2012, 9:59 AM
And the biggest joke CSACANNONEER is that you threaten to boycott a store (should I have one), and we all know calgunners don't spend money in the stores. So, what harm could you do? No that's funny, I don't care who you are, that's funny!

robcoe
07-29-2012, 10:07 AM
If you go to Gunrunner's in Merced these days you will find a very helpful atmosphere. They are doing PPT's no problem.

http://www.novarata.net/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

CSACANNONEER
07-29-2012, 10:08 AM
And the biggest joke CSACANNONEER is that you threaten to boycott a store (should I have one), and we all know calgunners don't spend money in the stores. So, what harm could you do? No that's funny, I don't care who you are, that's funny!

Really? I've spent "a few dollars" in local stores. In fact, I'd guess that over 50 of the firearms I've purchased in the last few years were from dealer's inventories. I prefer finding that hidden jem on the used rack than buying something sight unseen. Besides, dealers make a bigger profit on used guns than on new ones. But, I'm glad your narrow mindedness allowed you a good laugh.

BTW, how much experience do you have with PPTs? How many have you been involved in? How long do you think they should take?

Myself? I've been involved with hundreds (as buyer, seller or dealer (back when I worked for a shop). In my experience, they take less than 10 minutes unless, you're at Bass Pro, Turner's or another incompetent shop.

mikeinla
07-29-2012, 10:45 AM
And the biggest joke CSACANNONEER is that you threaten to boycott a store (should I have one), and we all know calgunners don't spend money in the stores. So, what harm could you do? No that's funny, I don't care who you are, that's funny!


High School?????
I just picked up a PPT from a local FFL yesterday and then proceeded to purchase a NEW rifle from that FFL. Who knows what I will buy ten days from now from that FFL.

$814.51 in NOTHING???


http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr159/mikeinla100/paperwork.jpg

tenpercentfirearms
07-29-2012, 11:26 AM
I don't own a store. I'm not a dealer. It does amaze me the righteous holier than thou attitude tenpercent and csacannoneer take with the "its the law" and the "it takes less than 10 minutes by a competent dealer" bullcrap! hahahaha. What a joke.

LOL is correct. I don't have a choice. If a person properly requests a PPT, I am violating the law by not doing it. Not sure how that makes me holier than thou, but I have to follow the law.

Additionally, I am a gun dealer. So I am not quite sure how I would be telling you bull crap when I say PPTs do not take that long. I usually can get guys done with the start of their PPT in ten minutes. Then I still have to sign them out at the end and that can take 10-20 minutes and paperwork takes about 5-10 more minutes.

I would rather not do PPTs, but the state has mandated them. It is what it is. I just deal with it and provide superior customer service. Not much else I can do.