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View Full Version : **UPDATE**03JAN**Dang dealers!


CavTrooper
12-26-2007, 11:24 PM
Why must dealers go above and beyond the law and make things tough for the customer? I almost though I had found a small shop Id be willing to deal with, but after tooday I may have to rethink that position.
Im trying to work a deal with a board member here and the local dealer had quoted a good price for the transfer, however, he wont accept the rifle from the other person, only from an FFL! Its just another hassle that isnt worth dealing with. Of course the only other place was a Turners, fortunatley the staff was extreamly helpful and pointed me in the direction of a FFL that charges less then the original and would most likely accept from a private party. checking them out tomorrow, if it doesnt work out, Ill be on the hunt for someone close by I can work with.
Oh well, things could be worse I guess.
Merry christmas and Happy New Year all!

Moonclip
12-27-2007, 12:30 AM
Let us know the names of the guilty parties. So we can know who is better to do business with. I'm surprised Turners was so helpful on this.

railroader
12-27-2007, 5:27 AM
Where do you live so someone can point you toward an ffl that is local for you. Mark

PIRATE14
12-27-2007, 7:02 AM
It's a highly regulated industry and dealers will run their business as they see fit......

Turners was helpful cause they don't want to do the paper work.....;)

dfletcher
12-27-2007, 7:32 AM
Why must dealers go above and beyond the law and make things tough for the customer? I almost though I had found a small shop Id be willing to deal with, but after tooday I may have to rethink that position.
Im trying to work a deal with a board member here and the local dealer had quoted a good price for the transfer, however, he wont accept the rifle from the other person, only from an FFL! Its just another hassle that isnt worth dealing with. Of course the only other place was a Turners, fortunatley the staff was extreamly helpful and pointed me in the direction of a FFL that charges less then the original and would most likely accept from a private party. checking them out tomorrow, if it doesnt work out, Ill be on the hunt for someone close by I can work with.
Oh well, things could be worse I guess.
Merry christmas and Happy New Year all!

I appreciate that the people on this forum are honest and law abiding, but I'm certain we're all aware that's not how the rest of the world operates. With respect to an FFL not accepting a gun from a non - FFL I'd ask the following: If someone you didn't know handed you a brown paper bag and said they'd pay you $50.00 to walk it across the street - right past the PD cruiser that's been watching the place for the last few days - would you do it? Maybe not the best analogy, but I'm sure that's how FFL dealers in CA feel.

I know there are exceptions granted for long term customers, but my expectation is always that the deal must go from FFL to FFL.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
12-27-2007, 7:34 AM
Pirate14,
and dealers will run their business as they see fit......

When people take there business elsewhere because his dumb stuff he's not making money.
No money =Closed.
This FFL that he's talking about is making he's own RULES.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
12-27-2007, 7:45 AM
dfletcher,
No, Not on long guns.

but my expectation is always that the deal must go from FFL to FFL.

That's no the Law.

Lon Moer
12-27-2007, 9:11 AM
Those type dealers are as much our enemy as any anti- is, do not support them. ;)

dfletcher
12-27-2007, 9:29 AM
dfletcher,
No, Not on long guns.

but my expectation is always that the deal must go from FFL to FFL.

That's no the Law.

Yes, I realize it's not the law and I don't think I asserted it was the law. That's just the way they want to do business and judging how often this subject comes up, I'd say there alot of FFLs doing business this way. Probably costs them some lost $$$, but it's their decision and although it may not be convenient for me, I have a difficult time disagreeing with them.

Mike's Custom
12-27-2007, 10:00 AM
As a FFL dealer we MUST provide proof of who we received a firearm from. If that person is from out of state or even teh area we hav no way to know who it actually came from. Since we FFL dealers can be prosecuted and shut down it is not in our best interest to do something we are not comfortible with. I require all NON FFL transfer to supply a copy of their drivers license and proof of address just like any CA resident must provide to a FFL dealer. I do not accept a PO BOX on a DL or ID and if that is what they have then they must also provide a verifiable address and Ph #. If I receive a firearm without this information I will not DROS the firearm until I receive this information. All I ask for is the information required by the BATFE and DOJ. If at any time someone doesn't like what a FFL does then they are welcome to apply for their own FFL. The whole process takes about 4 to 6 months and only cost a few hundred dollars.

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 10:06 AM
As a FFL dealer we MUST provide proof of who we received a firearm from. If that person is from out of state or even teh area we hav no way to know who it actually came from. Since we FFL dealers can be prosecuted and shut down it is not in our best interest to do something we are not comfortible with. I require all NON FFL transfer to supply a copy of their drivers license and proof of address just like any CA resident must provide to a FFL dealer. I do not accept a PO BOX on a DL or ID and if that is what they have then they must also provide a verifiable address and Ph #. If I receive a firearm without this information I will not DROS the firearm until I receive this information. All I ask for is the information required by the BATFE and DOJ. If at any time someone doesn't like what a FFL does then they are welcome to apply for their own FFL. The whole process takes about 4 to 6 months and only cost a few hundred dollars.

Haven't seen you around much.... hows Kristen?

Mike's Custom
12-27-2007, 10:17 AM
She is doing great.

FEDUPWBS
12-27-2007, 10:22 AM
Those type dealers are as much our enemy as any anti- is, do not support them. ;)

DAMN STRAIGHT!!!! +10000000%

bohoki
12-27-2007, 11:25 AM
if i was an ffl i wouldnt accept firearms unless they were from another ffl

what if joe shmoe sends stolen gun but gives his name as bill chill 123 happy street ,wacko texas

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 11:46 AM
if i was an ffl i wouldnt accept firearms unless they were from another ffl

what if joe shmoe sends stolen gun but gives his name as bill chill 123 happy street ,wacko texas

Guns come back as stolen all of the time. PPT transfers find all kinds of stolen guns, the FFL is not liable for that.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
12-27-2007, 11:53 AM
Bohoki,
That's why you have to send them your CDL with the long gun.

SP1200
12-27-2007, 12:17 PM
If someone you didn't know handed you a brown paper bag and said they'd pay you $50.00 to walk it across the street - right past the PD cruiser that's been watching the place for the last few days - would you do it?


Actually it should be more like: If a guy asked me to take a legal unloaded fire arm and pay me $50 bucks to walk it across the street I would!...

dfletcher
12-27-2007, 4:29 PM
Actually it should be more like: If a guy asked me to take a legal unloaded fire arm and pay me $50 bucks to walk it across the street I would!...

Me too. Unless it was something worthwhile then I might divert it for a few shooting sessions ....

But the point is, you don't know whether or not what's in the bag is legal & why take a risk?

AnniesGetYourGun
12-27-2007, 4:39 PM
Why must dealers go above and beyond the law and make things tough for the customer? I almost though I had found a small shop Id be willing to deal with, but after tooday I may have to rethink that position.
Im trying to work a deal with a board member here and the local dealer had quoted a good price for the transfer, however, he wont accept the rifle from the other person, only from an FFL! Its just another hassle that isnt worth dealing with.

I believe that I'm the dealer in this story. If you choose to refuse to do business with me, you are free to do so, but I ask you to reconsider.

I consider my position to be well-taken. I choose to have a clear FFL paper trail for any gun I receive. This is helpful, in fact necessary, for several reasons. Let's assume the following hypothetical situation: Joe Gunowner sends me a firearm intended for John Gunbuyer. John looks at the piece and says, "This isn't what I expected. I don't want it." Where does the gun go from here? I can't send it back to Joe. I can only send it to an FFL. If Joe doesn't want it back or doesn't provide me with an FFL who will accept it or he just disappears, then that gun is now in limbo.

I don't own it. Therefore I can't sell it. John doesn't own it; he refused it. Joe doesn't want it. It's now just here. I consider the hassle that would ensue for me in a situation like this one to outweigh the hassle a person sending me a gun might have to put up with in finding a sending FFL.

There are other situations that experience has shown me could arise, leading to hassles that, in the clearing of them, would, at the very least, distract me from the actual business that I must do. Forgive me for not going into a protracted explanation of what they could be.

In any event, I suspect that it is not the "hassle" that is the crux of the complaint but the added cost. I sympathize with that. We all want to keep our costs down and in recognition of that I offered to lower my receiving charge by fully one third for Calguns members. That offer still stands.

There are, however, considerations in doing business that go beyond the strict law. These considerations, based on experience, have led me to my current policy. Some of you have expressed the preposterous idea that this policy makes me an "enemy" of gun owners. I think that's not a well-thought-out opinion. I sell guns; I want every decent person in America to own guns. Wanting that, though, doesn't mean I have to put myself on a hook I can't get off of. Having a dealer in an untenable position doesn't do gun owners any favors.

It's ironic that opening myself up to Calguns and offering my services at a reduced price should lead to my being bad-mouthed on the forum and characterized as an enemy of gun owners. Maybe cooler heads and a reconsideration of the circumstances might help some of you to understand that although I have a policy that may be objectionable to you, we are all in this California-gun-ownership boat together and the way I choose to maintain my business so that I may not become one of the falling mom-n-pop-gun-store dominoes will allow me to continue selling you guns and give you another place to buy them. It doesn't make me a villain.

Thanks for reading this and allowing me to defend my position.

Jerry Fried
Annie's Get Your Gun

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 4:52 PM
I believe that I'm the dealer in this story. If you choose to refuse to do business with me, you are free to do so, but I ask you to reconsider.

I consider my position to be well-taken. I choose to have a clear FFL paper trail for any gun I receive. This is helpful, in fact necessary, for several reasons. Let's assume the following hypothetical situation: Joe Gunowner sends me a firearm intended for John Gunbuyer. John looks at the piece and says, "This isn't what I expected. I don't want it." Where does the gun go from here? I can't send it back to Joe. I can only send it to an FFL. If Joe doesn't want it back or doesn't provide me with an FFL who will accept it or he just disappears, then that gun is now in limbo.

I don't own it. Therefore I can't sell it. John doesn't own it; he refused it. Joe doesn't want it. It's now just here. I consider the hassle that would ensue for me in a situation like this one to outweigh the hassle a person sending me a gun might have to put up with in finding a sending FFL.

There are other situations that experience has shown me could arise, leading to hassles that, in the clearing of them, would, at the very least, distract me from the actual business that I must do. Forgive me for not going into a protracted explanation of what they could be.

In any event, I suspect that it is not the "hassle" that is the crux of the complaint but the added cost. I sympathize with that. We all want to keep our costs down and in recognition of that I offered to lower my receiving charge by fully one third for Calguns members. That offer still stands.

There are, however, considerations in doing business that go beyond the strict law. These considerations, based on experience, have led me to my current policy. Some of you have expressed the preposterous idea that this policy makes me an "enemy" of gun owners. I think that's not a well-thought-out opinion. I sell guns; I want every decent person in America to own guns. Wanting that, though, doesn't mean I have to put myself on a hook I can't get off of. Having a dealer in an untenable position doesn't do gun owners any favors.

It's ironic that opening myself up to Calguns and offering my services at a reduced price should lead to my being bad-mouthed on the forum and characterized as an enemy of gun owners. Maybe cooler heads and a reconsideration of the circumstances might help some of you to understand that although I have a policy that may be objectionable to you, we are all in this California-gun-ownership boat together and the way I choose to maintain my business so that I may not become one of the falling mom-n-pop-gun-store dominoes will allow me to continue selling you guns and give you another place to buy them. It doesn't make me a villain.

Thanks for reading this and allowing me to defend my position.

Jerry Fried
Annie's Get Your Gun


Your side was well articulated. I admire you for your conviction. No one is implying that you MUST do things a certain way. If you have enough business that you can refuse to accept transfers from other non-FFLS then by all means do it.

The point is this however:

You make a LOT more money on a gun that is purchased through your distributor than you do on a private sale. I often come across dealers that hate to do private sales because there is less money in it and often incurs more hassle. If you have made a personal business decision not to deal with this hassle that is fine, you will lose some business over it. You are gambling that the business you lose will be the PITA customers and you are probably right. He was not bad mouthing you he simply stated your policy and said he now had mixed feelings about doing business with you because of them. Maybe he is one of the PITA customers you are trying to avoid? You don't know. Regardless, he has a right to post your policies and decide whether he wants to do business with you.

CavTrooper
12-27-2007, 6:44 PM
Ive never stated the dealer in questions name and I will neither confirm or deny if it is even the dealer that posted in this thread.
Calling around today I came across two other dealers with the same policy until I finally found one that feels that following the LAW as it is written is sufficent for him. Also, he had the cheapest fee of all the dealers I contacted, thats the place Ill be doing buisness from now on!
I respect every buisness owners right to run thier buisness as they see fit. Its thier butt on the line when it comes to dealing with the LAW, and if they feel the need to overprotect themselves then that is thier perogitive. HOWEVER, it also my right as a paying customer to not like it and take my buisness somewhere else, which I did and will contiune to do.
Maybe this is not an exactly accurate comparison but I feel it comes close to explaining how I feel:
We here are all aware of what the LAW says about "assault weapons", whats banned, whats not, etc. Usually when someone here comes across a dealer that will not transfer a NON-Kalshnikov Saiga or OLL, you have a large group that will get riled up about how the dealer is not up on the law, wont do buisness, etc., etc. the LAW on "AWs" is clear, whats banned, whats not. Well, the LAW on transfers is clear as well, whats required and whats not, and long guns are not required to go from an FFL to another FFL. Its not unreasonable for a dealer to want it to go that way, its just not the LAW.
A long gun coming UPS or whatever with a copy of the senders DL is sufficent to complete the process with all the information required, asking for anything more than that, to me, is an inconvienence and I wont deal that way.
BTW- Folks need to quit the complaining about how hard it is to be a FFL dealer, Its the buisness you chose, if its so hard, QUIT.

ar15barrels
12-27-2007, 9:06 PM
You are gambling that the business you lose will be the PITA customers and you are probably right.

I would love to get rid of all the PITA customers.
They are the "nickel and dime" guys that don't want you to make any money on them no matter how much service you provide.
They are the ones with the sense of entitlement.
They truly believe that you should sell to them at dealer cost (because they found what dealer cost was by reading on the internet) with no regard for the business needing to make any money or keep it's doors open.

I get this all the time.
"Well, I can buy that from XX dealer for less money" but they fail to realize that XX dealer will not install the doodad on their rifle.
I tell them what my installation charges for said doodad and give them my price with installation if they want to buy the doodad from me.
By the time you figure shipping the doodad, waiting and then driving back to have it installed, it's usually easier to just pay my price.
There are guys that try to save money and do it anyways and then ***** about my installation charge.
It's like they expect me to work for free... :rolleyes:

ohsmily
12-27-2007, 9:25 PM
I consider my position to be well-taken. I choose to have a clear FFL paper trail for any gun I receive. This is helpful, in fact necessary, for several reasons. Let's assume the following hypothetical situation: Joe Gunowner sends me a firearm intended for John Gunbuyer. John looks at the piece and says, "This isn't what I expected. I don't want it." Where does the gun go from here? I can't send it back to Joe. I can only send it to an FFL.

Why not? Also, what changes if it came from an FFL? Using your same hypothetical, but adding in the seller using an FFL to send the gun...WHAT CHANGED? Nothing.

ar15barrels
12-27-2007, 9:33 PM
Why not? Also, what changes if it came from an FFL? Using your same hypothetical, but adding in the seller using an FFL to send the gun...WHAT CHANGED? Nothing.

He can send it back to the "sending" FFL and that FFL can release it back to the seller.

odesskiy
12-27-2007, 10:21 PM
Here's a question. If Joe Seller sends the gun, it is probably not for John Buyer to inspect and make up his mind. Chances are, John Buyer has already paid Joe Seller for the gun, hence he is very unlikely to just look at the gun and say "I don't want it".

The only situation I can see where the FFL would get stuck with a gun, is where it's a handgun that isn't on the CA Roster. In this case John Buyer is SOL - he paid for the gun, but it can't be DROS'd. As far as Joe Seller is concerned, the transaction is completed - he fulfilled his obligation by getting paid and shipping the gun. I am a little unclear on what the FFL is supposed to do here? I suppose distroying the gun would be the only logical option.

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 10:34 PM
I would love to get rid of all the PITA customers.
They are the "nickel and dime" guys that don't want you to make any money on them no matter how much service you provide.
They are the ones with the sense of entitlement.
They truly believe that you should sell to them at dealer cost (because they found what dealer cost was by reading on the internet) with no regard for the business needing to make any money or keep it's doors open.

I get this all the time.
"Well, I can buy that from XX dealer for less money" but they fail to realize that XX dealer will not install the doodad on their rifle.
I tell them what my installation charges for said doodad and give them my price with installation if they want to buy the doodad from me.
By the time you figure shipping the doodad, waiting and then driving back to have it installed, it's usually easier to just pay my price.
There are guys that try to save money and do it anyways and then ***** about my installation charge.
It's like they expect me to work for free... :rolleyes:

I'm self employed too; after buying a gun from you, they come to me and try to rewsce me on computers. They buy a $50 router from me and think that entitles them to free support for a year. THat or they will pay me $85 to format and reinstall the OS on their computer and then when Johnny downloads too much midget porn and gets a virus I am supposed to fix it under warranty. I understand his reasoning completely; my point is if you make the business decision to do that then don't complain when you lose business because of it.

The OP did not even post the name of the shop... he was just expressing his frustration.

ohsmily
12-27-2007, 10:46 PM
He can send it back to the "sending" FFL and that FFL can release it back to the seller.

Or he could just send it back to the seller. An FFL may ship a gun to the owner. When you send a gun in for service, the manufacturer ships it directly back to you, NOT to your FFL. So where is the advantage of being able to return the gun to the seller's FFL as opposed to the seller himself?

ar15barrels
12-27-2007, 10:49 PM
Or he could just send it back to the seller. An FFL may ship a gun to the owner. When you send a gun in for service, the manufacturer ships it directly back to you, NOT to your FFL. So where is the advantage of being able to return the gun to the seller's FFL as opposed to the seller himself?

Have you ever sent in a glock for service?
They require it to be shipped back to an FFL.

I know the laws, but I'm just saying...

N6ATF
12-27-2007, 10:53 PM
Just another reason why Glock RULES!

ar15barrels
12-27-2007, 10:55 PM
Just another reason why Glock RULES!

Not so much.
Rather than re-framing my 2nd gen gun, I just bought a 3rd gen gun and sold the 2nd gen gun.
I actually ended up about $100 ahead when all was said and done. :)

ohsmily
12-27-2007, 11:42 PM
Have you ever sent in a glock for service?
They require it to be shipped back to an FFL.

I know the laws, but I'm just saying...

No. Springfield Armory and Taurus. Both shipped the gun directly back to me.

tenpercentfirearms
12-28-2007, 6:41 AM
It is a dealer's choice plain and simple. I disagree with Annies on the reasoning too.

First, a person can send me their gun for service and I can send it directly back to them. If I am wrong on this, please let me know. So there is no reason not to accept to a firearm from a private party directly other than you just don't want to.

Second, a customer must understand when they transfer a gun through me, I don't care anything about it. If it is broken, not new, the wrong item, not on the CA list, or anything else, it is not my problem...period! The only time it could get a bit crazy is if some moron sends me an assault weapon. I have already decided in my mind I am going to turn it over to the Taft Police Department because it very well could be a set up. Again, that isn't my problem either.

I personally need to make up a rules of return form or something on transfers and post it on my website and in my shop. It would say something along the lines above and also: "Any firearms left unclaimed after 60 days will become property of Ten Percent Firearms." Something like that.

If a guy gets pissed and doesn't want the gun, he spent the money on it already, so if he says no, that is his loss. If the seller wants it back, they can send me shipping and I will send it back. If they don't, then their loss if they refunded the gun without taking out the shipping.

Basically, on a transfer, I am not out any money whatsoever if the deal goes sour. Best case scenario, I could run up on a free gun. Worst case scenario, I end up shipping the gun back and it only costs me a little time.

Accepting guns lawfully from anyone who wants to send them to me = more business. I honestly don't understand why companies have more restrictive policies when they don't need to and it doesn't benefit them.

Well, actually, there really is only one reason having all transfers go FFL through FFL. You want to discourage transfers. Just call a spade a spade.

kermit315
12-28-2007, 7:59 AM
well said tenpercent

rg_1111@yahoo.com
12-28-2007, 8:45 AM
AR15barrels,
Glock is a pistol. Were NOT talking a pistol were talking RIFLE. If you really know the laws. You know it does NOT have to be sent FFL to FFL.
We are talking long gun.

10 %,
It is the dealer choice. Its also the customers choice to use any body that has a FFL the knows the Law.
Its like this if you yourself buy something do you want to pay $70. more than you should.
Don't take this wrong i like your service and will do business with you because you have FANTASTIC service.

ar15barrels
12-28-2007, 9:26 AM
AR15barrels,
If you really know the laws. You know it does NOT have to be sent FFL to FFL.


I do know the law and it's a glock policy, not the law.
That's why I was 'just saying'... ;)

dfletcher
12-28-2007, 10:30 AM
For the FFL Dealers posting here, but if a non - rostered handgun shows up (and let's assume we won't get creative and turn that DA Smith into a SA only Smith or semi auto Browning HP into a rimfire single shot) what do you do with it? Can't go forward & DROS, the seller doesn't want it back - really, as a practical matter what do you do?

M. Sage
12-28-2007, 10:48 AM
You can't tell me that there isn't a process for firearms like there is in the auto repair biz.

My boss has claimed at least two cars since I started working for him, because those cars were badly damaged and "written off" by the customers (whose poor maintenance lead to the damage in the first place.)

Leave your car in our shop too long, we'll place a lien on it. Much like TPF said above.

In the situation of an off-roster handgun? Claim it as abandoned and put it up on Gunbroker.

ETA: Some of us at least, appreciate awesome customer service. I know that I'm happy to pay more for great service, and I'm a legendary cheapskate.

ar15barrels
12-28-2007, 3:13 PM
For the FFL Dealers posting here, but if a non - rostered handgun shows up (and let's assume we won't get creative and turn that DA Smith into a SA only Smith or semi auto Browning HP into a rimfire single shot) what do you do with it? Can't go forward & DROS, the seller doesn't want it back - really, as a practical matter what do you do?

You let the buyer (whom you can't legally DROS it too) sell it out of state and ship it to the new buyer's FFL.

Maddog5150
12-28-2007, 5:18 PM
Turners was helpful cause they don't want to do the paper work.....;)

Riiiiiiiight. So we were helpful for being lazy and not money on an FFL? The paperwork at the store level is extremely minute compared to a PPT yet we are the bad guys for saving this guy some money. Yup. ya caught us :rolleyes:
No this wasn't me who helped this guy but I thank him none the less for the Kudos.

Annies, I dont care what anyone here says. My father and I will still be loyal customers. My dad buys more guns from you than me :p

Moonclip
12-29-2007, 12:25 AM
well said tenpercent

I agree, very well put. I talked to my father recently about all this PPT overcharging tomfoolery of late and this FFL to FFL monkey business and he also agrees that we should try to do more business with dealers that don't pull this.

Will I still go to Annie's? Yes. Will I go to other dealers when doing an out of state transfer and in the process of doing so be more inclined to go there to purchase other firearms? Also yes.

I've noticed Ade's is very accomidating to receiving firearms(don't know if he requires FFL to ship to him but the fees are reasosnable, also don't know how he acts about PPT's) and he is cool about OLL's. Guess what, his shop is usually swarmed. I go to Ades more often due to location than Annie's but I usually notice it's more crowded at Ade's.

CavTrooper
01-03-2008, 9:10 PM
Went to check out the shop my new rifle will be shipped to today, it hadnt arrived yet when I got there but they were kind enough to give me a call this evening to let me know it had arrived. I will be there tomorow to check it out and start the paperwork.
HOWEVER, the main reason for this post was to let you all know that the MISSION PAWN shop in Montclair was very friendlyand helpful. Not a huge selection of arms but what they had was reasonably priced, so reasonable that when I found a combo gun I have been looking for for the last year an a half I had to buy it!
So the friendly dealer brought a customer into his store with his reasonable transfer policy and prices and sold a firearm off his shelf because of it. I know now that if im in the market for a new piece, his will be the first shop I check!
THANKS MISSION PAWN!

USN CHIEF
01-03-2008, 9:21 PM
Well congratulations to you.. I can't wait to go start the DROS on two handguns that I am buying from fellow cal gunners tomorrow...