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View Full Version : Should FFLs be allowed to charge more than $35 for a PPT?


TonyNorCal
12-23-2007, 11:55 AM
California State Law limits dealers to $35 for a PPT* transfer. The breakdown is $25 to the state and $10 to the dealer.

The reason for this is likely to encourage people to use an FFL to facillitate a legal transfer. Since most firearms in CA require an FFL, having a minimal fee encourages compliance.

However, a dealer or those sympathetic can make an argument that only allowing a $10 profit for all the work involved (paperwork, time, dealing with the customer twice, storage, etc) is unfair and contrary to running a profitable business.

So, do you think an FFL should be permitted to charge more for a PPT?

*Just to be clear...

a PPT is when both parties (buyer and seller) are present at the FFL to conduct the transfer. This is what's limited to $35.

When a customer has an item sent to an FFL (doesn't matter from where) then the FFL is free to charge whatever he wishes for his fee.

I include this because it seems people tend to confuse the different types of transfers and fees allowed.

RP1911
12-23-2007, 11:57 AM
A dealer may charge more than $35.00 for a PPT. As long as the dealer specifically breaks down the charges for anything over $35.00 and is upfront with it.

bohoki
12-23-2007, 12:00 PM
A dealer may charge more than $35.00 for a PPT. As long as the dealer specifically breaks down the charges for anything over $35.00 and is upfront with it.

really hmm i thought there was a law

John Browning
12-23-2007, 12:03 PM
A dealer may charge more than $35.00 for a PPT. As long as the dealer specifically breaks down the charges for anything over $35.00 and is upfront with it.

The law is very specific. They cannot charge fees that total more than $35, and they cannot refuse to do the transfer if you don't agree to buy something else or pay them anything beyond $35. $35, that's it. To add: If they want to break down the $10 they get, they certainly can. They can charge you 56 cents for ink, 44 cents for oxygen use, 1.20 for carbon dioxide emission, $7 for storage and 80 cents for electricity, but THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR, THE TOTAL FEES CANNOT EXCEED $35.

The DOJ and the ATF are always looking for a good reason to revoke a FFL, and this would be considered good enough reason to pull your ticket to the firearms dealing party. It may not be the most profitable or enjoyable adventure, but having a FFL is not all sunshine and rainbows. You can risk your entire livelyhood for $10, but that probably isn't a smart move.

M. Sage
12-23-2007, 12:22 PM
Other:

They should be able to charge whatever they feel like, but PPT should be allowed without a dealer or other third party. Problem solved.

rue
12-23-2007, 12:41 PM
Hmm,
I just did one the other day where both parties were present(me and the other guy) and the FFL is charging me $50.. He said I can pay when I pick it up but should I say something? I emailed him asking him what the charge was and he said $50
I also bought 2 OLL's and he said they can't be on the same DROS which I get and I did a separate DROS for the lowers @ $50 for both lowers but since both of us were present and I didn't need his FFL to have the pistol shipped isn't it just a separate transaction PPT?

M. Sage
12-23-2007, 12:52 PM
Wow, Rue. That guy is BSing you big time.

You can do multiple long guns on one DROS. Max PPT charge is $35. Oh, and they can't refuse to do a PPT.

Not that I agree with limiting the max charge, but the other option would be to allow gun owners to do PPT without requiring a third party... which is how it should be. As it is now, everybody's rights are getting shredded.

John Browning
12-23-2007, 12:58 PM
Hmm,
I just did one the other day where both parties were present(me and the other guy) and the FFL is charging me $50.. He said I can pay when I pick it up but should I say something? I emailed him asking him what the charge was and he said $50
I also bought 2 OLL's and he said they can't be on the same DROS which I get and I did a separate DROS for the lowers @ $50 for both lowers but since both of us were present and I didn't need his FFL to have the pistol shipped isn't it just a separate transaction PPT?

If it is for just a PPT, he can't charge you $50. He will probably give you your $15 back if you ask him about it, unless he wants you to put in a call to DOJ.

I'm not sure about the details on the second part, but the lowers can be on the same DROS if they are from the same party as the other gun you bought. They are also $35 for one, and $10 I believe for the other.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8

If he won't treat you fairly, you can always throw him under the bus and call DOJ. It certainly isn't nice, but neither is theft, which he is trying to do to you.

Satex
12-23-2007, 1:06 PM
The reason for this is likely to encourage people to use an FFL to facillitate a legal transfer. Since most firearms in CA require an FFL, having a minimal fee encourages compliance.

However, a dealer or those sympathetic can make an argument that only allowing a $10 profit for all the work involved (paperwork, time, dealing with the customer twice, storage, etc) is unfair and contrary to running a profitable business.

So, do you think an FFL should be permitted to charge more for a PPT?



I disagree with your analysis. DROS is a required process, so there is nothing about fee control to "encourage" people to use it. The fee is probably restricted because of NRA pressure to prevent it from becoming a method to prevent gun ownership, i.e. a $5,000 per firearms DROS fee would help significantly reduce gun ownership.

Since DROS is a legal process, the fees should be controlled. Fair allotment is made to compensate the dealer for his time and most important - the dealer makes his money on the firearm, not on the DROS.

rue
12-23-2007, 1:14 PM
Well the long gun part of my dealings with him was for two lowers I ordered from out of state where I had him send his FFL info to them so he charged me $50 for that and told me It would be the same for 1 lower or 5 lowers it didn't go up if I bought more than 1.

When I went to do the paperwork I brought a friend along with a pistol and wanted to do a PPT as well (different transaction). He's saying it's $50 for both transactions so I'm a little confused what to do here. I never paid him yet but after reading the PC code it's seems clear to me it's a max. charge of $35 for a pistol PPT.

kermit315
12-23-2007, 1:24 PM
I would print out the PC and take it with you when you go to pick up. If he still gives you a hard time, tell him you are calling DOJ, and then do it. JMO, but there is no room for trying to steal money from somebody for a service that is required. That is the same as DMV charging you more for your plates than what you actually have to pay, so they make more money.

I voted for no, however wanted to be more like Illinois, I sell you something, you pay me and we go about our business. There is more to it than that, but no third party to pay and definately no 10 day wait.

joe_sun
12-23-2007, 1:28 PM
Other:

They should be able to charge whatever they feel like, but PPT should be allowed without a dealer or other third party. Problem solved.


Exactly what I was going to post.

RP1911
12-23-2007, 1:29 PM
really hmm i thought there was a law

Correct for PPT. i screwed up (temp memory malfunction and confusion with dealer sale).

Here is the pertinent info from DOJ's website:

How much is the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) fee?

The State's DROS fee is $19.00 which covers the costs of the background checks and transfer registry. There is also a required $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, the dealer may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a state fee. In the event of a private party transfer, the firearms dealer may additionally charge a fee of $10 per firearm transferred.

When settling on the purchase price of a firearm and before completing the transaction, you may want to ask the dealer to disclose and identify any and all fees he/she is charging to complete the transaction.

(PC Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806)



I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.
(PC section 12072(d))

Sorry about my hasty response before.

Fjold
12-23-2007, 2:06 PM
Well the long gun part of my dealings with him was for two lowers I ordered from out of state where I had him send his FFL info to them so he charged me $50 for that and told me It would be the same for 1 lower or 5 lowers it didn't go up if I bought more than 1.

When I went to do the paperwork I brought a friend along with a pistol and wanted to do a PPT as well (different transaction). He's saying it's $50 for both transactions so I'm a little confused what to do here. I never paid him yet but after reading the PC code it's seems clear to me it's a max. charge of $35 for a pistol PPT.

He treated you fairly on the two lowers DROS.

He can only charge you $35 for the pistol PPT.

gmcal
12-23-2007, 4:24 PM
I think they should be able charge a little more, say $50 total instead of $35. They aren't really spending that much time on it, should be less than 1 hour total. If you allowed dealers to charge whatever they wanted, many would jack up the price so it would be cheaper to buy from them, and private individuals selling used firearms could get hosed on prices. I understand why they charge for internet sales, but PPT doesn't cost them potential sales. After an experience I had on Friday, I think there should be definition of interenet sales.

Para
12-23-2007, 4:28 PM
It is a government regulated transaction, so yes I believe the price should be fixed.

tenpercentfirearms
12-23-2007, 6:30 PM
Handgun PPT's suck big time. I wouldn't mind being about to make $25 on them.

I just look at it as part of the service of owning a gun shop though. I make enough money doing other things I don't mind wasting my time on a PPT.

CavTrooper
12-23-2007, 6:43 PM
Hell no.
The state wants to encourage PPT through an FFL? they need to be FREE! No fee to the state, no fee to the FFL. FFL wants to make a few bucks off of the transfer, get it from the state, theyre the ones forcing you to do them.

socalguns
12-23-2007, 6:52 PM
Free, exactly.

Soldier415
12-23-2007, 6:54 PM
Regardless of everything else. We are required to use an FFL for the transfer. I know that the FFL doesn't make any money on it for his and his staff's time, which I do not think is right, so I always make it a point to buy at least a box of ammo or some cleaning supplies so that they are at least compensated for their time.

You do honest work, you deserve an honest buck in my humble opinion.

rue
12-23-2007, 8:34 PM
He treated you fairly on the two lowers DROS.

He can only charge you $35 for the pistol PPT.

I agree with you about the lowers.
I'm not trying to knock this guy and I'm not telling who it is to anyone in the open or in PM's. I hope he only charges me the $35 though when I pick it up.

It was a PPT for sure since my buddy who owned the guy brought it with me and was present for the transfer. I actually was at another gun store earlier that day and they were going to do it for me but I said no as I figured I'd let the guy who is doing my OLL DROS do it and keep my business with people who support us in our OLL builds. In my area he's one of the only ones I hear. I remember the place where we were at said it was $35 bucks and when I was done with all the paperwork at the guy who was doing my OLL stuff he said $50 for the lowers, $50 for the PPT. My first thought was so much for trying to help him out by doing my PPT there... I figured my bad for not asking first and then I saw these posts about $35 bucks being the max.

CSACANNONEER
12-23-2007, 8:41 PM
In a few years, the cost of doing PPTs will run every FFL out of bussiness unless the fees can be adjusted for inflation.

CSDGuy
12-23-2007, 8:57 PM
I actually don't care WHAT a dealer can charge for a PPT as long as all dealers are capped at the same amount. Currently, it's $35. I don't care if it can be adjusted for inflation, but there must be a statutory max that nobody can exceed. This way, regardless of where you go, the playing field will be level. To further encourage this, there should also be some severe consequences if someone is overcharged for a PPT.

gmcal
12-23-2007, 8:59 PM
Would FFL's be allowed to do them at set times (known slow periods, or days) or by appointment? I think that would go along way towards helping them out. On Friday (at noon) when I did mine, the shop was pretty slow. That was the only money made during that time. I understand why they wouldn't want to do one on a busy weekend.

tgriffin
12-23-2007, 10:16 PM
I agree with you about the lowers.
I'm not trying to knock this guy and I'm not telling who it is to anyone in the open or in PM's. I hope he only charges me the $35 though when I pick it up.

It was a PPT for sure since my buddy who owned the guy brought it with me and was present for the transfer. I actually was at another gun store earlier that day and they were going to do it for me but I said no as I figured I'd let the guy who is doing my OLL DROS do it and keep my business with people who support us in our OLL builds. In my area he's one of the only ones I hear. I remember the place where we were at said it was $35 bucks and when I was done with all the paperwork at the guy who was doing my OLL stuff he said $50 for the lowers, $50 for the PPT. My first thought was so much for trying to help him out by doing my PPT there... I figured my bad for not asking first and then I saw these posts about $35 bucks being the max.

Gentlemen,

I know the FFL in question, and in fact was present (I believe) when Rue was there last week. The FFL in question indeed DOES charge only $35 for the PPT. He charges (and is very upfront about) a $15 storage and handling fee associated with every transaction that requires a firearm being stored within his place of business. Considering his situation, the convenience of his hours and flexibility of schedule, I do not find the additional $15 to be an inconvenience. Where else can you do a DROS in Contra Costa County after 7pm?

metalhead357
12-23-2007, 10:21 PM
I'd love a return to the old sys...the one WITHOUT an FFL....but FAT CHANCE on that one anytime soon:chris:


So until the law changes--- they gotta stick to the same stooooooopid laws we do.

Sgt Raven
12-23-2007, 11:02 PM
I'd love a return to the old sys...the one WITHOUT an FFL....but FAT CHANCE on that one anytime soon:chris:


So until the law changes--- they gotta stick to the same stooooooopid laws we do.


Exactly!

John Browning
12-23-2007, 11:29 PM
Gentlemen,

I know the FFL in question, and in fact was present (I believe) when Rue was there last week. The FFL in question indeed DOES charge only $35 for the PPT. He charges (and is very upfront about) a $15 storage and handling fee associated with every transaction that requires a firearm being stored within his place of business. Considering his situation, the convenience of his hours and flexibility of schedule, I do not find the additional $15 to be an inconvenience. Where else can you do a DROS in Contra Costa County after 7pm?

There are those of us who don't want to burn $15 for storage that is legally required. A dealer can only assess a storage fee AFTER the expiration of the 10 day waiting period. They can't charge you extra to do what they are legally required to do to stay in business.

Sgt Raven
12-23-2007, 11:51 PM
There are those of us who don't want to burn $15 for storage that is legally required. A dealer can only assess a storage fee AFTER the expiration of the 10 day waiting period. They can't charge you extra to do what they are legally required to do to stay in business.

No, you have between 10 and 30 days to pick the firearm up. After 30 days they could charge a storage fee. ;)

tenpercentfirearms
12-24-2007, 7:25 AM
Yeah, I don't think they can charge a storage fee. If I were the customer I would say, "Ok, I don't want to pay the storage fee. I will store it at my house and bring it back for the sign out." If they refuse, then you refuse to pay the $15 storage fee. That is BS pure and simple.

Sgt Raven
12-24-2007, 7:49 AM
I had a dealer charge me an extra $15.00 on a PPT last year. I didn't report him to DOJ, but I won't buy anything from him or send anyone else to him. When you add that $15 + the $22 in diesel I spent driving to there twice, I should have had the seller ship the shotgun to the dealer thats 10 minutes from my house. He would have charged me $50 + $25(state fee) and I would have had the shotgun 12 days sooner.

In this deal a PPT at Tabor's $25(dealer) + $25(state) +$22(fuel)= $72 and I had to be there at a certain time.

My local dealer $50(dealer) + $25(state) + $3(fuel)= $78 and I could have done it at my time and recieved it 2 weeks earlier. In hindsight I should gone this way.

What the seller spent in fuel to drive to that dealer, his friend, would have covered the shipping.

Max-the-Silent
12-24-2007, 7:59 AM
I vote yes - dealers should be able to charge whatever the market will bear.

Dealers should not be limited by legislative edict as to what they charge.

The legislature should keep it's collective nose out of our safes and out of the dealers business as well.

tenpercentfirearms
12-24-2007, 8:20 AM
I vote yes - dealers should be able to charge whatever the market will bear.

Dealers should not be limited by legislative edict as to what they charge.

The legislature should keep it's collective nose out of our safes and out of the dealers business as well.

That is fine in theory, but when the state mandates you must do your service with me, laissez faire goes out the window. If I could charge whatever I wanted for a PPT, I would charge $100 plus DROS. It would only encourage you to buy new guns from me. :43:

That is why if the state is going to mandate it, they need to put a cap on it.

TonyM
12-24-2007, 8:53 AM
That is fine in theory, but when the state mandates you must do your service with me, laissez faire goes out the window. If I could charge whatever I wanted for a PPT, I would charge $100 plus DROS. It would only encourage you to buy new guns from me. :43:

That is why if the state is going to mandate it, they need to put a cap on it.

Or, encourage people to try to do FTF w/o an FFL..

I usually PPT 2 or 3 guns, then buy a new one from that FFL.

If the FFLs with shops around here charged $100 for PPT's, I'd just use the "Kitchen Table" FFLs we have here that even do out of state transfers cheap. I'm not likely to pay that kinda money for a used gun transfer, since everyone thinks their 10 year old, shot to s**t, barely cleaned handgun is worth 95% of the new price to begin with. All the deals are down there in the southern part of the state! :)

chuck762
12-24-2007, 4:44 PM
That is fine in theory, but when the state mandates you must do your service with me, laissez faire goes out the window. If I could charge whatever I wanted for a PPT, I would charge $100 plus DROS. It would only encourage you to buy new guns from me. :43:

That is why if the state is going to mandate it, they need to put a cap on it.

Yeah, I'd like to make 200 bucks an hour also.
If dealers were allowed to charge whatever they wanted with the current transfer laws you would see non list pistols being sold out of state instead of being sold to cali buyers. So yes, you would make some more money but in the long run cali gun owners would (as usual) loose out by having the number of collectable pistols disappear.

So as long as I am forced to transfer a used firearm through a dealer then I think there should be a cap on the amount. Yeah, socialism at it's finest but at least everyone gets the dirty end of the stick. ;)

tenpercentfirearms
12-24-2007, 5:26 PM
If the FFLs with shops around here charged $100 for PPT's, I'd just use the "Kitchen Table" FFLs we have here that even do out of state transfers cheap. I'm not likely to pay that kinda money for a used gun transfer, since everyone thinks their 10 year old, shot to s**t, barely cleaned handgun is worth 95% of the new price to begin with. All the deals are down there in the southern part of the state! :)You wouldn't if the kitchen table FFLs charged $100 also. Or the kitchen table guy decides he will do them for a bargain at the price of $75. If the state doesn't set a cap, then the price will rise.

just4fun63
12-24-2007, 5:45 PM
If the government mandates something you must do they have to cap it at a price that all people can reasonably afford. I am no longer in the firearms retail business but am still in the retail business and there are just some things you have to do in order to be in business. In a field as regulated as firearms you have to know things will be set by government, I don't agree with this but it is a fact of life right now. I kind of relate this to tax, should a retailer be able to set his own sales tax above and beyond what the gov requires?

rue
12-24-2007, 6:54 PM
Gentlemen,

I know the FFL in question, and in fact was present (I believe) when Rue was there last week. The FFL in question indeed DOES charge only $35 for the PPT. He charges (and is very upfront about) a $15 storage and handling fee associated with every transaction that requires a firearm being stored within his place of business. Considering his situation, the convenience of his hours and flexibility of schedule, I do not find the additional $15 to be an inconvenience. Where else can you do a DROS in Contra Costa County after 7pm?

I think you have the wrong FFL I'm in Sacramento county.

jandmtv
12-24-2007, 7:30 PM
lol, hahaha, he said $15 storage fee. hahahahahaha. omfg..... 2E8B can you really be that (censored)?

i think ppt is capped at a correct amount. dealers have to take the good with the bad. they make alot of money on items that sell themselves most of the time. so they should perform the ptt at the low rate it is set at. hell give me a ffl and ill be more than happy waste my time selling guns and doing as many ppts as i can. $10 for 15 minuets of work is not that bad. plus while you are doing the ptt. the customer is looking around your store, and they end up buying something anyway. its a win win.

Soldier415
12-24-2007, 7:32 PM
Something to think about. PTP Transfers bring someone into your shop. If they receive excellent friendly service when they know you are not making any money for it...don't know about you guys, but that would strongly entice me to take my business there for my next purchase

PLINK
12-25-2007, 12:41 AM
Hmm,
I just did one the other day where both parties were present(me and the other guy) and the FFL is charging me $50.. He said I can pay when I pick it up but should I say something? I emailed him asking him what the charge was and he said $50
I also bought 2 OLL's and he said they can't be on the same DROS which I get and I did a separate DROS for the lowers @ $50 for both lowers but since both of us were present and I didn't need his FFL to have the pistol shipped isn't it just a separate transaction PPT?

I agree with you about the lowers.
I'm not trying to knock this guy and I'm not telling who it is to anyone in the open or in PM's. I hope he only charges me the $35 though when I pick it up.

It was a PPT for sure since my buddy who owned the guy brought it with me and was present for the transfer. I actually was at another gun store earlier that day and they were going to do it for me but I said no as I figured I'd let the guy who is doing my OLL DROS do it and keep my business with people who support us in our OLL builds. In my area he's one of the only ones I hear. I remember the place where we were at said it was $35 bucks and when I was done with all the paperwork at the guy who was doing my OLL stuff he said $50 for the lowers, $50 for the PPT. My first thought was so much for trying to help him out by doing my PPT there... I figured my bad for not asking first and then I saw these posts about $35 bucks being the max.

I know exactly who you are talking about. We are very happy that this FFL only charges $50 total ($25 for DROS and $25 for his fee) for non-PPT transfers. It is almost unheard of that an FFL will only charge $25 on top of the $25 that has to go to the state. Call any gun store in Sac and ask what they charge on top of the DROS for non-PPT, out of state, internet sale, etc transfer where two FFL's are involved. The responses you get will surprise you. Besides that none of the shops in Sac deal with OLL's.

People drive from far distances to pay this price and to get the friendly service this FFL offers.

Here is what your OLL transfer could look like from another FFL.

$25 - DROS
$50 - transfer fee
$10 - $40 (maybe more) for each additional long gun ie OLL.

I know this part of your transaction is not what your complaint is about but some people (maybe not you) have no idea.

Yes the law says $35 for PPT. Maybe it was a miscommunication. He may or may not have an additional fee, I don't know. But consider the above info if you ask him about your $15.

tenpercentfirearms
12-25-2007, 7:10 AM
I think ppt is capped at a correct amount. dealers have to take the good with the bad. they make alot of money on items that sell themselves most of the time. so they should perform the ptt at the low rate it is set at. hell give me a ffl and ill be more than happy waste my time selling guns and doing as many ppts as i can. $10 for 15 minuets of work is not that bad. plus while you are doing the ptt. the customer is looking around your store, and they end up buying something anyway. its a win win.I see a lot of you have the theory down on this, but not the actual application.

If the PPT is a long gun, you can count on it maybe only taking 15 minutes of your time, the first time they come in. However, they do have to pick the firearm up as well. So there is about 30 minutes spent on a $10 sale. That might be fine and dandy if I have nothing in stock to sell, but if I have guns on the rack and other customers waiting, this is not the kind of business that is going to keep my doors open.

Now we didn't even take into consideration what happens if it is a handgun. You might have to give them the HSC test which adds time onto the transaction and then at the end you have to do the handgun safety demonstration that is going to add on at least another 5 minutes of testing and one more piece of paper.

I really think those of you who think DROS and the paperwork is just this wonderful, fun thing to do have never done DROS and paperwork. I used to not mind it, but when you have a shop full of customers, you don't finish the paperwork right then and there. Then you have to go back later on and try and finish it. You have to double check everything, find the guns in the book so you can sign them out, and then file the paperwork away.

Now I agree with you, I see PPTs more as a service and it does give guys a chance to come into the shop, but those of you pretending like you would do PPTs all day long obviously have never been gun dealers or you would most certainly change your mind.

And just in case you don't know, hunting licenses, fishing licenses, and PPTs do not necessarily translate into sales. They sometimes do, but not as often as I would like.

No complaints here, I can always get out of the business. I am just telling you my experience.

bohoki
12-25-2007, 7:54 AM
I see a lot of you have the theory down on this, but not the actual application.

If the PPT is a long gun, you can count on it maybe only taking 15 minutes of your time, the first time they come in. However, they do have to pick the firearm up as well. So there is about 30 minutes spent on a $10 sale. That might be fine and dandy if I have nothing in stock to sell, but if I have guns on the rack and other customers waiting, this is not the kind of business that is going to keep my doors open.

Now we didn't even take into consideration what happens if it is a handgun. You might have to give them the HSC test which adds time onto the transaction and then at the end you have to do the handgun safety demonstration that is going to add on at least another 5 minutes of testing and one more piece of paper.

I really think those of you who think DROS and the paperwork is just this wonderful, fun thing to do have never done DROS and paperwork. I used to not mind it, but when you have a shop full of customers, you don't finish the paperwork right then and there. Then you have to go back later on and try and finish it. You have to double check everything, find the guns in the book so you can sign them out, and then file the paperwork away.

Now I agree with you, I see PPTs more as a service and it does give guys a chance to come into the shop, but those of you pretending like you would do PPTs all day long obviously have never been gun dealers or you would most certainly change your mind.

And just in case you don't know, hunting licenses, fishing licenses, and PPTs do not necessarily translate into sales. They sometimes do, but not as often as I would like.

No complaints here, I can always get out of the business. I am just telling you my experience.

what would be a good fee then for a private party transfer?

i think $35 is too much to pay to comply with the law especially when selling a beater single shot shotgun

ca should have a ppt dros be free and let the shop owners charge $10 for the paperwork they should encourage the legal transfer not hinder it by charging exorbitant fees

private party transfers bring 2 customers to your store

tenpercentfirearms
12-25-2007, 11:02 AM
Like I said, I look at it as more of a service, so $10 doesn't hurt me any. It is just part of the business. Or tell you what $10 for long guns and $20 for handguns would be fair. I hate handgun DROS.

I just think anyone who says they would do PPTs all day long and those of you who pretend like that $10 is worth it have never owned a gun shop and processed a complete 4473 and DROS before including the A&D book. If you had, you wouldn't want to do PPTs for $10 all day long.

Boomer1961
12-25-2007, 12:38 PM
Huh?

We may agree or disagree if $10 is enough for this service.

I just finished 3 weeks of jury duty at $7 per day, now how is this different than making a dealer make only $10 by performing mandatory community service as a condition of his license.

How about a lawyer that gets his yearly pick by the judge for a pro bono, and why is it the powerful lawyers get the easy cases or are able to hire somone else to take there place while others get picked for a mass murder trial that lasts 2 years with no hopes of writing a book.

How about Interns who end up getting paid minimum wage when their hours versus pay are figured out and they have to work 48 or 72 hour shifts.

The FFL is a privelage so I hae no issues with mandating prices for particular community services. I would hope the government though would be reasonable and not do anything that would drive them out of business (NOT GOING TO HAPPEN as we all know with Clinton's past war against the FFL with lawyer teams developing anti-gun packages/tactics for cities to use like the requiring of $5,000,000 insurance for the dealer that sells just 12 guns a year and the 1000 feet away from a school that only leaves a small corner in the back of the dumps available as a school free zone).

As for requiring the FFL to do the transaction the way it is most advantageous to you, get real, this is America and they are out to get a buck. The ones that did not eat their vegetables or go to bed on time or insisted on playing video games instead of doing their homework when they were little will zap it to you and make the quick short term buck. The good dealer will want repeat business and also realize there is a good chance the customer is just doing a small transaction to test your honesty so he helps you save money in hopes of making much more later.

Try not to confuse what is mandatory versus non-mandatory because it is really not right to call the ATF on an FFL just because they did not do the deal the way it saved you the most money. This is really not fair and is like using nuclear bombs on the shop lifter. You can explain to the FFL how to do it to your liking but if you are not satisfied please leave it as not doing business with them and recommending others to stay away. That is more appropriate.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

:party: :jump:

:jump: :party:

:party: :jump:

Mike's Custom
12-25-2007, 2:27 PM
First off, the poll question has no bassis in accuracy. A CA FFL dealer can ONLY charge up to $10 for a PPT. The DROS fee to the state is $25 and is NOT to be confused with the PPT fee. Now that that has been corrected there is no law that limits the FFL from charging a PAPERWORK FEE. Just like buying a car, (DOC FEE) or a house (loan fee or origination fee), a dealer may charge any amount for his time to fill out the paperwork and also may charge a fee for the Safe Handling Demonstration Affidavit.

I find it funny that a lot of firearms buyers complain about a FFL making a little (and I mean little) money for their time and license but think nothing of spending $1000 on a 10/22. They grip about $10 or $20 on the gun then buy all the parts online where people they don't even know make more profit on the parts then the FFL did selling the gun and the online guys don't have to pay CA licensing or have to deal with all the CA gun laws or the BATFE or CADOJ. Just seems like something is skewed in the wrong direction to me.


i think ppt is capped at a correct amount. dealers have to take the good with the bad. they make alot of money on items that sell themselves most of the time. so they should perform the ptt at the low rate it is set at. hell give me a ffl and ill be more than happy waste my time selling guns and doing as many ppts as i can. $10 for 15 minuets of work is not that bad. plus while you are doing the ptt. the customer is looking around your store, and they end up buying something anyway. its a win win.

I can guarentee that if you had a FFL you would be *****ing about having to do PPTs for $10 or ONLINE transfers in no time at all. And, if you think a FFL makes "alot of money on items that sell themselves" then you have a lot to learn. A dealer is lucky to make 20% on firearms and that is including shipping ot them. Considering we pay OVERNIGHT shipping for hand guns we are lucky to make 15% and in some case it is a break even deal on the less expensive handguns. And if you think I am hedging this try shipping a handgun through UPS or FED EX overnight. Yes, I know that you can ship cheaper with USPS but the wholesalers don't do that or give us the option. If you really had any balls you would get your own FFL and put us all out of business doing free PPTs and online transfers and selling new firearms at cost all while you do this full time while trying to make a car and house payment and paying CA utility bills. Oh, and eating, let's not forget buying food. All the gun buyers in CA should be happy that there are us dealers still left in business since we can make as much or more on Welfare and eat government cheese for free.

Now, to the facts. In a study released by the NSSF a couple years ago they figured that on a average of 20% mark-up on a firearm and hourly wage of $20 that a CA FFL dealer loses $14+ on every firearm they sale. This includes the time it takes to sell the customer the firearm, the ordering, processing in and out of their books and time spend DROSing the firearm. So, anyone that wants to be a CA FFL dealer all you have to do is apply and jump in. Now, if you want to be really mad then think about this; Glocks cost about $80-100 to make. Think about that next time you think a dealer is making to much money on a firearm.

kermit315
12-25-2007, 6:48 PM
First off, the poll question has no bassis in accuracy. A CA FFL dealer can ONLY charge up to $10 for a PPT. The DROS fee to the state is $25 and is NOT to be confused with the PPT fee. Now that that has been corrected there is no law that limits the FFL from charging a PAPERWORK FEE. Just like buying a car, (DOC FEE) or a house (loan fee or origination fee), a dealer may charge any amount for his time to fill out the paperwork and also may charge a fee for the Safe Handling Demonstration Affidavit.


Correct me if I am wrong, but when an FFL does a PPT, as required by law, that price includes the paperwork associated with it, does it not? You are not paying for the FFL to stand there, you are paying for paperwork and storage by proxy...period. They didnt sell you the gun, the didnt sent a copy of their FFL off so someone could do an internet order, they are doing a paperwork drill that is required by law. Thats it. There is no provision for a "paperwork fee". The law says $35.00 MAX for a PPT, and that includes the paperwork, which makes sense, because that is all that a PPT is other than keeping the gun in the FFL's safe for 10 days.

Dont get me wrong, I dont wish for anybody to get shortchanged. I think PPT should be me paying you for a gun and us both parting ways. However, this is the law and has to be adhered to.

Not sure on the HSC affidavit, I dont have to deal with that, thank god.

Sgt Raven
12-25-2007, 8:31 PM
First off, the poll question has no bassis in accuracy. A CA FFL dealer can ONLY charge up to $10 for a PPT. The DROS fee to the state is $25 and is NOT to be confused with the PPT fee. Now that that has been corrected there is no law that limits the FFL from charging a PAPERWORK FEE. Just like buying a car, (DOC FEE) or a house (loan fee or origination fee), a dealer may charge any amount for his time to fill out the paperwork and also may charge a fee for the Safe Handling Demonstration Affidavit.

I don't pay DOC fees or loan fees, if they want to sell me that house or car, they can eat those fees or take that amount off the price of the house or car.

CavTrooper
12-25-2007, 8:33 PM
First off, the poll question has no bassis in accuracy. A CA FFL dealer can ONLY charge up to $10 for a PPT. The DROS fee to the state is $25 and is NOT to be confused with the PPT fee. Now that that has been corrected there is no law that limits the FFL from charging a PAPERWORK FEE. Just like buying a car, (DOC FEE) or a house (loan fee or origination fee), a dealer may charge any amount for his time to fill out the paperwork and also may charge a fee for the Safe Handling Demonstration Affidavit.
....snipped.

The LAW limits $35 TOTAL for everything involved in a PPT. No "paperwork", "storage", "pain and suffering" extra fees may be added.

12082.
The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee.

Im sorry but thats the LAW. I have to do a transfer through an FFL, it should be FREE! Any $$$ paid to the dealer, should come from the STATE, they are the ones FORCING you and I do do the transfer this way.
Go ahead and do your best to charge more, youll get away with it for awhile, but eventually, someone will bust you out for your illegal operations.

John Browning
12-25-2007, 8:34 PM
First off, the poll question has no bassis in accuracy. A CA FFL dealer can ONLY charge up to $10 for a PPT. The DROS fee to the state is $25 and is NOT to be confused with the PPT fee. Now that that has been corrected there is no law that limits the FFL from charging a PAPERWORK FEE. Just like buying a car, (DOC FEE) or a house (loan fee or origination fee), a dealer may charge any amount for his time to fill out the paperwork and also may charge a fee for the Safe Handling Demonstration Affidavit.



There is a law that prohibits the total fees on a PPT from exceeding $35. If you charge a paperwork fee, or a storage fee, or an origination fee or whatever, that's fine. However, that has to be part of the $10 you make in the legally allowable TOTAL fee of $35.

As others have said, the law is clear as crystal on this. If the dealer charges more than $35 total, the dealer has broken the law. Dealers that break the law don't remain in business. Therefore, by the transitive property, if a dealer charges more than $35 for a PPT, they won't remain in business.

CavTrooper
12-25-2007, 8:42 PM
12082.
The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee.


Just for GP:

I like how the dealers and some others are talking about charging MORE for the PPT, but no one ever mentions charging LESS!
If a dealer decided to charge LESS than $10 for a PPT thatd be the dealer Id trust!

Moonclip
12-26-2007, 12:12 AM
I know a dealer that charges less for a PPT for LE.

CaliGunOwner
12-26-2007, 3:13 PM
Since the FFL does all the paperwork for the state & is repsonsible to keep those records, they should be able to charge at least as much as the state charges --- $25

Sgt Raven
12-26-2007, 3:40 PM
Since the FFL does all the paperwork for the state & is repsonsible to keep those records, they should be able to charge at least as much as the state charges --- $25

By all rights the state should get the $10. and the FFL should get the $25. of the $35. for a PPT. :rolleyes:

thedrickel
12-26-2007, 3:45 PM
What I want to know is, why does the state get $25 for NOTHING. Running an NICS check does not cost $25. :cuss:

Just another advantage to the C&R license - screw the state out of their 25$ gun purchase tax.

metalhead357
12-26-2007, 4:06 PM
What I want to know is, why does the state get $25 for NOTHING. Running an NICS check does not cost $25. :cuss:

Just another advantage to the C&R license - screw the state out of their 25$ gun purchase tax.


Yep money for nothing for a service that essentially puts you into a contract with the FFL....and lest some forget the Constititon specifically prohibits a citizen necessitating being in ANY contract save for inclusion in the Constitution itself.

Bring back the days of cash & carry!!!!!!! It works in other states!!!!!!

Mike's Custom
12-27-2007, 11:36 AM
Again, the DROS fee is $25 and a FFL can not charge more for the DROS. The PPT fee is $10 for a total of $35. The PPT fee is NOT $35. The PPT fee is $10. Any dealer can charge a PAPERWORK fee as long as it is not represented in the DROS or a PPT fee. It must be listed seperately and if there is such a fee, and there are some places that do charge for their time, it must be charged to all DROS's they process and not just to PPTs. The law only states that a dealer can ONLY charge $10 for the PPT not including the DROS fee.

kermit315
12-27-2007, 11:46 AM
any paperwork that arises from doing a PPT is included in the 10 dollar fee and the 25 dollar DROS. They can NOT tack on more "fees" on top of that including a "paperwork" fee.

12082.
The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076.

This addresses your paperwork fee.

thedrickel
12-27-2007, 12:06 PM
Again, the DROS fee is $25 and a FFL can not charge more for the DROS. The PPT fee is $10 for a total of $35. The PPT fee is NOT $35. The PPT fee is $10. Any dealer can charge a PAPERWORK fee as long as it is not represented in the DROS or a PPT fee. It must be listed seperately and if there is such a fee, and there are some places that do charge for their time, it must be charged to all DROS's they process and not just to PPTs. The law only states that a dealer can ONLY charge $10 for the PPT not including the DROS fee.


Hello, anybody home???

E Pluribus Unum
12-27-2007, 12:58 PM
Again, the DROS fee is $25 and a FFL can not charge more for the DROS. The PPT fee is $10 for a total of $35. The PPT fee is NOT $35. The PPT fee is $10. Any dealer can charge a PAPERWORK fee as long as it is not represented in the DROS or a PPT fee. It must be listed separately and if there is such a fee, and there are some places that do charge for their time, it must be charged to all DROS's they process and not just to PPTs. The law only states that a dealer can ONLY charge $10 for the PPT not including the DROS fee.

I'm sorry Mike but you are mistaken here. As posted above, on FACE TO FACE PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFERS you are not permitted to charge any more than $10 + the $25 DROS.

Now, internet sales or private transfers where both parties are not present (face to face) you are free to charge what you want.

In the isolated instance when two private parties contact you and want to do a private party transfer face to face you MUST do it and you MUST only charge $10 for your services. It is one of the things you give up as a dealer for the opportunity to sell guns. The reason they did this was to discourage street sales. If it costs $100 or more to transfer a gun less people will do the background check. By requiring a maximum charge of $10 + $25 they stop more felons from owning guns because a legitimate person will more likely insist on going through the DROS process. I know if I ever sell my gun to a private party I will pay the $35 to go through a dealer for liability reasons.

If you have been charging anything over the $10 for face to face private transfers, you've been breaking the law. I would rectify it as soon as possible. Call the DOJ asap and they will tell you its true. Sorry bud.