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Timberwolf
12-22-2007, 9:09 PM
We are going over the match schedule for the coming year and are thinking of changing the match from Sat to Sunday. WHat do y'all think?

Prc329
12-22-2007, 9:11 PM
I'm good for either but I believe a couple of the guys have church on sundays.

wildcard
12-22-2007, 9:30 PM
We are going over the match schedule for the coming year and are thinking of changing the match from Sat to Sunday. WHat do y'all think?

I say night matches on Saturday and morning matches on Sunday. It would suck to shoot on Sunday evening and have to work the following morning.

PistolPete75
12-22-2007, 9:50 PM
i say saturday is better. leaves the weekend more open to do other things like church, etc.

sunday is okay too, but like in the afternoon would be great.

Timberwolf
12-23-2007, 6:11 AM
As clarification - night matches would be on Sat night - the day match would be a morning match - remember I have to close the entire range for portions of the match, hence I can't do it in the afternoon.

rksimple
12-23-2007, 6:49 AM
I'm always booked Sundays with church and all. I like the Saturday matches the best. Sunday mornings I think would be harder for people to get away.

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 4:39 PM
Saturday nights and sunday mornings so I can go.
If it has to be saturday, make it the 1st saturday of the month.
That's my only free saturday. ;)

rksimple
12-23-2007, 5:51 PM
Saturday nights and sunday mornings so I can go.
If it has to be saturday, make it the 1st saturday of the month.
That's my only free saturday. ;)

First saturady of the month are the vegas PR matches. What Sunday's are the WEGC PR matches?

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 6:42 PM
First saturady of the month are the vegas PR matches.
What Sunday's are the WEGC PR matches?

2nd sunday of the month at WEGC.
Vegas is far enough away that we don't have to worry about confilicting with them.
If you look hard enough, I'm sure you will find other matches on any given weekend day in phoenix, bakersfield, san diego etc...

rksimple
12-23-2007, 7:25 PM
2nd sunday of the month at WEGC.
Vegas is far enough away that we don't have to worry about confilicting with them.
If you look hard enough, I'm sure you will find other matches on any given weekend day in phoenix, bakersfield, san diego etc...

Well since I'm 45 minutes from Bakersfield and 3.5 hours from Las Vegas, those conflict. APS and the Vegas matches are the only ones held on Saturdays and I hit them both every month. Heck, its probably 2.5hrs for me to get to WEGC. I've become accustomed to spending a little time on the road to get to these matches.

PistolPete75
12-23-2007, 7:28 PM
let's have people vote that are actually going to attend the matches. i think this is a fair statement to say.

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 7:31 PM
Well since I'm 45 minutes from Bakersfield

I was going to make some smart *** comment about being only 45 minutes from Bakersfield no longer qualifying you from living in SOUTHERN california, but I could not come up with a witty enough reply so this is all you get. :)

rksimple
12-23-2007, 7:32 PM
let's have people vote that are actually going to attend the matches. i think this is a fair statement to say.

I plan on it every month. Its a great match with a great group of guys. If its on Sundays, I'll have to bow out of the day matches. Just too many other commitments on Sundays. Saturday nights are still a go, however.

rksimple
12-23-2007, 7:35 PM
I was going to make some smart *** comment about being only 45 minutes from Bakersfield no longer qualifying you from living in SOUTHERN california, but I could not come up with a witty enough reply so this is all you get. :)

Truth be told, the farther away I am from the big cities of socal, the better. I like being able to go 10 minutes from my house and shoot without anyone around me. Or getting off of work during deer season and hunting every evening. Or waking up in the morning and seeing this out of my front window:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b82/rksimple/KerrFebApr07049a.jpg

I grew up in Westchester, and after moving here, I'd never go back.

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 7:43 PM
let's have people vote that are actually going to attend the matches. i think this is a fair statement to say.

I vote for sundays SO THAT I can attend them. ;)

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 7:46 PM
Truth be told, the farther away I am from the big cities of socal, the better.
I like being able to go 10 minutes from my house and shoot without anyone around me.
Or getting off of work during deer season and hunting every evening.

I did not say it was bad thing to not live in southern ca. ;)
I wish I could get out of here too.
Phoenix/Mesa is calling me.

PistolPete75
12-23-2007, 8:13 PM
I plan on it every month. Its a great match with a great group of guys. If its on Sundays, I'll have to bow out of the day matches. Just too many other commitments on Sundays. Saturday nights are still a go, however.

The APS matches will be best for me on saturdays also. Sundays will be very iffy for me.

If it goes to Sundays, I might have to start shooting at ShootingByYourSelf matches, or go drive my butt to Techachapi.

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 8:15 PM
If not the 1st saturday, how about 3rd saturdays?
Does that conflict with any other matches?

rksimple
12-23-2007, 8:29 PM
If not the 1st saturday, how about 3rd saturdays?
Does that conflict with any other matches?

Not that I know of or shoot in. Bill puts on a good match and its always a good time.

Pete-I want to work on a match, or at least a yearly shoot, out on my father in laws mine claim. It would be a hoot to have 1000 acres or so to work with!:D

PistolPete75
12-23-2007, 8:54 PM
Not that I know of or shoot in. Bill puts on a good match and its always a good time.

Pete-I want to work on a match, or at least a yearly shoot, out on my father in laws mine claim. It would be a hoot to have 1000 acres or so to work with!:D

shoot, i can help. i'll be some type of an assistant. i can also help promote it. mayby we can get some vendors to sponser. hmmm....might work well. there is a possibility to make a couple of g's.

we can make it a real tactical match which ukds, cbs, stress factors, multiple hold under shots, etc. that'll be fun!

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 9:01 PM
there is a possibility to make a couple of g's.

That should not even be a factor that's considered when starting a new match.
It's already hard enough to get sponsors for matches with no previous attendence history to show off.
It's even harder if you are not a "known entity" that has done matches before.
Running big matches is thankless work.
Just ask anyone that has done it. ;)

rksimple
12-23-2007, 9:06 PM
That should not even be a factor that's considered when starting a new match.
It's already hard enough to get sponsors for matches with no previous attendence history to show off.
It's even harder if you are not a "known entity" that has done matches before.
Running big matches is thankless work.
Just ask anyone that has done it. ;)

My only concern are the possible legal issues if someone were to fall and get hurt, or fall victim to any other accident, and want to sue. I have to get that squared away first.

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 9:11 PM
My only concern are the possible legal issues if someone were to fall and get hurt, or fall victim to any other accident, and want to sue. I have to get that squared away first.

Waivers.
Insurance. (where all the money goes)
This is why you coordinate matches through an already-setup club that has the legalities all worked out.

rksimple
12-23-2007, 9:18 PM
Waivers.
Insurance. (where all the money goes)
This is why you coordinate matches through an already-setup club that has the legalities all worked out.

The problems with the already setup clubs is that they don't have 1000 acres to make 10-15 different stages all involving 500+ yard shots. That would be nice. I wonder how they do it at ASC as thats the type of match I had in mind. I'll have to send those guys an email. Or maybe it'll be an Area 51 type match...that never happened...really...

PistolPete75
12-23-2007, 9:29 PM
500yard+ stages would be awesome! plus a stage shooting downhill in a steep decline would be great, like a rooftop shot.

i also would like to try team matches too. might be interesting to shoot in one of those also.

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 9:33 PM
The problems with the already setup clubs is that they don't have 1000 acres to make 10-15 different stages all involving 500+ yard shots.

How many shooters do you expect to attract?
How many days will the match be?

10-15 stages is a HUGE undertaking if there are multiple targets on each stage.
You are going to need a lot of steel and LaRue targets or flashers are the way to go at these ranges because you (the RO) often can't reliably call hits on static steel.

PistolPete75
12-23-2007, 9:36 PM
Randall, it's all just for fun talking at this point. ya know, like brainstroming. don't take it too seriously. have fun man, that's why we all shoot right?

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 9:44 PM
Randall, it's all just for fun talking at this point. ya know, like brainstroming. don't take it too seriously. have fun man, that's why we all shoot right?

Sorry, my past experience is speaking. ;)

Shooting IS the fun part.
Running matches is just work.
At BIG matches, the organizers don't even get to shoot.
They send the day driving around and putting out fires.

rksimple
12-23-2007, 9:49 PM
How many shooters do you expect to attract?
How many days will the match be?

10-15 stages is a HUGE undertaking if there are multiple targets on each stage.
You are going to need a lot of steel and LaRue targets or flashers are the way to go at these ranges because you (the RO) often can't reliably call hits on static steel.

The ASC is/was done on the honor system. Every shooter kept his/her own score and it seemed to work well for them. Other shooters would be spotters as well. Theres no way around lots of steel, although some stages would have paper too.

Heres a pic of some of the claim:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b82/rksimple/DSCN3255a.jpg

Heres one of blasting going on, but it gives you an idea of the angles that could be involved:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b82/rksimple/2002Blast3besta.jpg

Timberwolf
12-23-2007, 10:07 PM
If you want help putting on a match let me know and I'll help set it up with you. There's a lot involved behind the scenes before you even get to the 1st stage, believe me when I tell you there's alot involved in working out COFs to make them not only stressfully realistic but doable as well. Also you'll put very little in your pocket once you cover targets, frames, steel, timers, copying, and the personal time you spend promoting, setting up, running, tearing down etc. Start small and then once you're known and get your baptism then try a big one if you want. Mark ran his matches for 2.5 years before he did SCPRC, VU did the same before NorCal and Area 51 came together with the help of Mark and Kurt, both experienced match directors.

Now as an example of what I'm talking about one of the reasons that we're looking at Sunday matches is because with Sat morning matches I have to take a vacation day from work on Fridays to do all the prep work involved before the match at APS. I don't mind doing it and have the vacation time if that's what it takes . . . but I thought I'd see what the concensus was.

rksimple
12-23-2007, 10:11 PM
If you want help putting on a match let me know and I'll help set it up with you. There's a lot involved behind the scenes before you even get to the 1st stage, believe me when I tell you there's alot involved in working out COFs to make them not only stressfully realistic but doable as well. Also you'll put very little in your pocket once you cover targets, frames, steel, timers, copying, and the personal time you spend promoting, setting up, running, tearing down etc. Start small and then once you're known and get your baptism then try a big one if you want. Mark ran his matches for 2.5 years before he did SCPRC, VU did the same before NorCal and Area 51 came together with the help of Mark and Kurt, both experienced match directors.

Now as an example of what I'm talking about one of the reasons that we're looking at Sunday matches is because with Sat morning matches I have to take a vacation day from work on Fridays to do all the prep work involved before the match at APS. I don't mind doing it and have the vacation time if that's what it takes . . . but I thought I'd see what the concensus was.

I think the best thing to do first would be to have an area 51 type thing out there. Kurt shoots for free if he brings some steel!:D That would give some of the shooters that have been to a quite a few local matches to give some input on the location. From there, who knows.

Timberwolf
12-23-2007, 10:14 PM
That sounds good - I've got some steel, poppers, bases and frames. Talk Kurt into his mover set up.

ar15barrels
12-23-2007, 10:35 PM
Now as an example of what I'm talking about one of the reasons that we're looking at Sunday matches is because with Sat morning matches I have to take a vacation day from work on Fridays to do all the prep work involved before the match at APS. I don't mind doing it and have the vacation time if that's what it takes . . . but I thought I'd see what the concensus was.

That's kinda what I would have guessed too.
To hold a GOOD morning match, you almost always set it up the day before.
We do that for our WEGC Action Pistol and 3Gun matches as well.
Putting matches on sundays gives you those few hours of setup on saturday evening instead of on friday.
Nobody wants to show up at 4am and setup in the dark for an 8:00am match.

rksimple
12-24-2007, 6:21 AM
That's kinda what I would have guessed too.
To hold a GOOD morning match, you almost always set it up the day before.
We do that for our WEGC Action Pistol and 3Gun matches as well.
Putting matches on sundays gives you those few hours of setup on saturday evening instead of on friday.
Nobody wants to show up at 4am and setup in the dark for an 8:00am match.

At Kurts matches in Vegas, everyone gets to the range at about 730-800. Everyone helps setting the targets and its done in about 1/2 an hour. The setup at APS isn't quite as conducive to that, due to the topography, but we're willing to help if we can, Bill.

Timberwolf
12-24-2007, 6:34 AM
The biggest problem is time . . . since we can only shoot the low stages (by the office) when the range is closed, which means for a morning match before 0800. Prep work generally takes 2 - 4 hours depending on what props have to be done, etc etc.

rksimple
12-24-2007, 7:32 AM
I hear ya'. We could always just shoot the buff because its already setup. Then have another paper stage closer. Maybe setup a couple of smaller steels up on the hill that can remain there. I hear you guys have some great stuff in store for this year. I look forward to it!

wildcard
12-24-2007, 7:46 AM
I hear ya'. We could always just shoot the buff because its already setup. Then have another paper stage closer. Maybe setup a couple of smaller steels up on the hill that can remain there. I hear you guys have some great stuff in store for this year. I look forward to it!

The buff? Being able to spot your shots against the hillside would be much too easy compared to the current 1/30 hit probability :)

PistolPete75
12-24-2007, 8:32 AM
i could help out too. i don't mind.

i think we have to work on our cbs, more than anything else.

i noticed by first shots of the day are the worst, and then it starts tightning up. i might buy a .22 bolt action too, and start practicing with it. anyone know of a .22 bolt action to buy that will hold 1moa or less? i might end up yanking my brother's ruger. hehee

wildcard
12-24-2007, 8:49 AM
i could help out too. i don't mind.

i think we have to work on our cbs, more than anything else.

i noticed by first shots of the day are the worst, and then it starts tightning up. i might buy a .22 bolt action too, and start practicing with it. anyone know of a .22 bolt action to buy that will hold 1moa or less? i might end up yanking my brother's ruger. hehee

Al's Ruger should hold 1MOA easily. If I recall correctly, all you need to buy is a new scope base and you're ready to go. Look into picking up some Wolf Match .22 as it is known to be the most affordable yet accurate ammo. I've confirmed it myself and it holds true for my rifle. If you're unhappy with its current performance, $100 for a new Green Mountain barrel and/or a bedding job should take car of everything.

Timberwolf
12-24-2007, 1:16 PM
My Savage MkII will hold under 1 MOA

rksimple
12-24-2007, 2:33 PM
The buff? Being able to spot your shots against the hillside would be much too easy compared to the current 1/30 hit probability :)

Our current hit probability is a result of NOT being able to see our impacts. I haven't learned anything from that stage, nor have many others. No data has been recorded other than "miss". It would be nice to get some solid dope for that shot.

PistolPete75
12-24-2007, 4:19 PM
Our current hit probability is a result of NOT being able to see our impacts. I haven't learned anything from that stage, nor have many others. No data has been recorded other than "miss". It would be nice to get some solid dope for that shot.

Pasqual hit it at roughly 30.5 moa if i'm not mistaken. running 2650fps with 168smk.

i was shooting 29.50moa at that time, and i went high.

Timberwolf
12-24-2007, 4:41 PM
Our current hit probability is a result of NOT being able to see our impacts. I haven't learned anything from that stage, nor have many others. No data has been recorded other than "miss". It would be nice to get some solid dope for that shot.

At the risk of loosing friends that stage was designed that way. The best way to shoot that stage if your not sure of your dope or the conditions is to shoot a spoiler into the hill just below the target for your first shot, adjust and then fire for effect with your 2nd shot.

For January though I'm going to use the buff for that stage to give everyone a chance to get some reasonable dope.

Prc329
12-24-2007, 4:48 PM
My 155 scenar load running 2950 on the buffalo was 22.75 moa when Pete and I shot it. On the maiden I ran the same elevation but my windage was off on my scope so I was off to the left. I will never again mess with my scope knobs before a match :(

Prc329
12-24-2007, 4:50 PM
Pasqual hit it at roughly 30.5 moa if i'm not mistaken. running 2650fps with 168smk.

i was shooting 29.50moa at that time, and i went high.

I believe you were at 30 the day we shot the buffalo.

rksimple
12-24-2007, 4:52 PM
For January though I'm going to use the buff for that stage to give everyone a chance to get some reasonable dope.

I'll enjoy that. I always try to learn and log any info that can help me in the future. That stage has been the stinker for me.

wildcard
12-24-2007, 5:09 PM
Our current hit probability is a result of NOT being able to see our impacts. I haven't learned anything from that stage, nor have many others. No data has been recorded other than "miss". It would be nice to get some solid dope for that shot.

Well it certainly doesn't effect the FIRST shot probability.. but it would certainly would make a difference for the subsequent shot(s). I was just referring to being able to hit it.

rksimple
12-24-2007, 5:13 PM
Well it certainly doesn't effect the FIRST shot probability.. but it would certainly would make a difference for the subsequent shot(s). I was just referring to being able to hit it.

Yes, it does affect my first shot probability. I have no solid dope for that distance at that elevation. Once I do, thats one less variable I have to account for in adjusting for all other atmospheric effects. Subsequent CBS's will be based on actual results.

Timberwolf
12-24-2007, 5:17 PM
Don't get too comfortable though, we've go a few new spots we'll be engaging the buff from that will make the present firing line look like the line at Camp Perry. :rofl::rofl:

wildcard
12-24-2007, 5:21 PM
Yes, it does affect my first shot probability. I have no solid dope for that distance at that elevation. Once I do, thats one less variable I have to account for in adjusting for all other atmospheric effects. Subsequent CBS's will be based on actual results.

Can't it be calculated based on the usual factors? What I noticed when I purposely shot low to see my bullet impact on the hillside was that my elevation (based on known come-up, elevation, temperature, and angle) was fine.. but my windage was off due to the thermals. If I only had one more shot..

Timberwolf
12-24-2007, 5:29 PM
Its not just the thermals, are you taking into account the bullet's yaw caused by the rifling. For example Savannah has a 1-10 RH twist - at 865 yards, with my load, I hold .5 MIL to the left on a still day to account for it.

Vu 308
01-01-2008, 8:24 PM
shoot, i can help. i'll be some type of an assistant. i can also help promote it. mayby we can get some vendors to sponser. hmmm....might work well. there is a possibility to make a couple of g's.

we can make it a real tactical match which ukds, cbs, stress factors, multiple hold under shots, etc. that'll be fun!

LOL...think again my friend.

More like put yourself in debt a couple of Gs.

Vu 308
01-01-2008, 8:26 PM
Hey Twolf,

We have matches on the first Sunday and 2nd Saturday of each month.

Are your matches at the end of each month?

Also let me know when you get a full schedule together and I will post it on our internal club site.

PistolPete75
01-01-2008, 8:40 PM
LOL...think again my friend.

More like put yourself in debt a couple of Gs.

i said help out, not invest. nothing more than some elbow greese for me.

Vu 308
01-01-2008, 8:45 PM
That's fine but you said something about a possibility of making a few Gs. I just thought that was funny since the truth is probably the complete opposite.

Not busting your balls or anything.

PistolPete75
01-01-2008, 8:46 PM
it's ryan's place, so he would be making the $$$. i'm in it for the pure fun of shooting. again the reason why i compete. for the pure fun of shooting. if i'm going to make money of anything in the "gun" world, it hopefully be gunsmithing. but that's going to take some time.

hk-p2000
01-01-2008, 8:51 PM
Where are this APS Matches are, what city and what do you need for 1st timers.

Vu 308
01-01-2008, 8:56 PM
LOL...nevermind man..you missed the point.

PistolPete75
01-01-2008, 9:13 PM
APS = A Place To Shoot (Saugus)

aplacetoshoot.net

bolt action .308

PistolPete75
01-01-2008, 9:16 PM
LOL...nevermind man..you missed the point.

no i understand that it costs money to run the matches. like anything else, there is an investment that will take some time to recover. but there must be a point when it turns into profit.

if your running a big match and charge $150 per pop and have like let's say 50 shooters, there got to be profit in that. plus sponser money. merchandise like t-shirts, drinks, and food.

Vu 308
01-01-2008, 9:38 PM
Ok PP...just to give you a rough idea of what it takes to run a big match.

so you say 50 shooters for a 150.00 a piece which is around what I am charging this year for my big event.

Gives you 7500.00 for a budget

Range fees: 1500.00 for 3 bays for 2 days which is dyam cheap.
BBQ for about 75 people: 1500.00
Liquids for 2 days for 75 people. 350.00
T-shirts: 750.00
Trophies: 400.00

That brings you to around 4500.00

Now since you are going to have sponsors they are going to want to send some shooters to your event for free. So you figure you give up about 5 slots for sponsors.

Thats another 750.00
I donate 3 positions for active duty military shooters that specialize in LR shooting: thats another 450.00

That brings us to 5700.00 before we talk about targets or admin cost.

150.00 just in mailing out letters to sponsors.
We won't even discuss the cell phone bill.

I budget about 1000.00 for Targets, props, and misc supplies and emergency home depot runs for whatever. Trust me that 1K goes by fast.

That brings us to right around 6700.00

So...that leaves you around 800.00 for the 1000 other things that come up before a match you have to do.

And if you factor in about a few hundred man hours for the match director and then factor in a good 15 to 20 man crew to pull it all off......now you see why I laughed at profit. Factor in their time and you will never ever be in the positive.

If match directors like Twolf, Mark A. and any other match director that does this month after month charged for their time...no one would be able to afford to shoot the matches.

Why do we do it then? Cause if we didn't no one else would. That's the bottom line. I got into it because I wanted to see the shooting disipline grow on the west coast.

If you ever shoot with Mark A. at West End Gun Club..ask him how much he made doing matches for the past 10 years.

ar15barrels
01-01-2008, 11:00 PM
LOL...nevermind man..you missed the point.

Quite a while ago actually. ;)

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 7:51 AM
OK well by the poll results it appears the matches will stay on Saturday for now. That said the first match of the year at APS will be on 01/26/08 so mark your cals accordingly.

PistolPete75
01-02-2008, 8:50 AM
Ok PP...just to give you a rough idea of what it takes to run a big match.

so you say 50 shooters for a 150.00 a piece which is around what I am charging this year for my big event.

Gives you 7500.00 for a budget

Range fees: 1500.00 for 3 bays for 2 days which is dyam cheap.
BBQ for about 75 people: 1500.00
Liquids for 2 days for 75 people. 350.00
T-shirts: 750.00
Trophies: 400.00

That brings you to around 4500.00

Now since you are going to have sponsors they are going to want to send some shooters to your event for free. So you figure you give up about 5 slots for sponsors.

Thats another 750.00
I donate 3 positions for active duty military shooters that specialize in LR shooting: thats another 450.00

That brings us to 5700.00 before we talk about targets or admin cost.

150.00 just in mailing out letters to sponsors.
We won't even discuss the cell phone bill.

I budget about 1000.00 for Targets, props, and misc supplies and emergency home depot runs for whatever. Trust me that 1K goes by fast.

That brings us to right around 6700.00

So...that leaves you around 800.00 for the 1000 other things that come up before a match you have to do.

And if you factor in about a few hundred man hours for the match director and then factor in a good 15 to 20 man crew to pull it all off......now you see why I laughed at profit. Factor in their time and you will never ever be in the positive.

If match directors like Twolf, Mark A. and any other match director that does this month after month charged for their time...no one would be able to afford to shoot the matches.

Why do we do it then? Cause if we didn't no one else would. That's the bottom line. I got into it because I wanted to see the shooting disipline grow on the west coast.

If you ever shoot with Mark A. at West End Gun Club..ask him how much he made doing matches for the past 10 years.


i'm not here to argue with you. i'm not interested in investing in matches, so you don't have anything to worry. i understand that you do it cause you want to, okay? no need to feel threatened by me. like anything else, you have to have a passion to do something. more power to you.

wildcard
01-02-2008, 8:55 AM
OK well by the poll results it appears the matches will stay on Saturday for now. That said the first match of the year at APS will be on 01/26/08 so mark your cals accordingly.

I'll be there. Who else is in?

Prc329
01-02-2008, 8:59 AM
I should be there.

PistolPete75
01-02-2008, 9:08 AM
i should be there too.

by the way, not to antogonize but i have a "thing" in business administration. if there is a profit to be made, i'll turn it and maximize it. i also have a degree in business administratin with an emphasis in marketing. if you need some help just let me know.

rksimple
01-02-2008, 9:16 AM
Ok PP...just to give you a rough idea of what it takes to run a big match.

so you say 50 shooters for a 150.00 a piece which is around what I am charging this year for my big event.

Gives you 7500.00 for a budget

Range fees: 1500.00 for 3 bays for 2 days which is dyam cheap.
BBQ for about 75 people: 1500.00
Liquids for 2 days for 75 people. 350.00
T-shirts: 750.00
Trophies: 400.00

That brings you to around 4500.00

Now since you are going to have sponsors they are going to want to send some shooters to your event for free. So you figure you give up about 5 slots for sponsors.

Thats another 750.00
I donate 3 positions for active duty military shooters that specialize in LR shooting: thats another 450.00

That brings us to 5700.00 before we talk about targets or admin cost.

150.00 just in mailing out letters to sponsors.
We won't even discuss the cell phone bill.

I budget about 1000.00 for Targets, props, and misc supplies and emergency home depot runs for whatever. Trust me that 1K goes by fast.

That brings us to right around 6700.00

So...that leaves you around 800.00 for the 1000 other things that come up before a match you have to do.

And if you factor in about a few hundred man hours for the match director and then factor in a good 15 to 20 man crew to pull it all off......now you see why I laughed at profit. Factor in their time and you will never ever be in the positive.

If match directors like Twolf, Mark A. and any other match director that does this month after month charged for their time...no one would be able to afford to shoot the matches.

Why do we do it then? Cause if we didn't no one else would. That's the bottom line. I got into it because I wanted to see the shooting disipline grow on the west coast.

If you ever shoot with Mark A. at West End Gun Club..ask him how much he made doing matches for the past 10 years.

I think you missed the point of the type of match I was contemplating. I wanted to do something a la ASC. Its on 1000 or so acres so the "range fee" is non-existent, as well as some of the other expenses you listed. I'd do it for the same reason you do...to allow people a place to compete under some very diverse conditions...something you don't get very often at a range. Extreme angles, temp swings...you get the idea.

I think the first thing to do is have an Area 51 type thing out there thats by invitation only. That will give us the feedback we need.

Twolf-I'll probably make the match this month.

Vu 308
01-02-2008, 9:38 AM
i'm not here to argue with you. i'm not interested in investing in matches, so you don't have anything to worry. i understand that you do it cause you want to, okay? no need to feel threatened by me. like anything else, you have to have a passion to do something. more power to you.

LOL...threatened? And who said we were arguing.

Just shining some light on something you absolutely have no expereience in. Hope to see you at our big event in August. Might give you a better idea when you speak about these things next time.

Roger that on the ASC type of match Rksimple. Hope us boys from NorCal have a few spots. NorCal Practical Precision Rifle Club would be more than happy to haul down some of our steel and equipment for an event like that.

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 9:43 AM
An Area 51 type of match would be good. And by invatation only is better as you can limit the shooters to a runable level, without the marketing, range, and sponser expense.

Set up and event organization etc are not too costly but time heavy. The only expense you'll really have are targets, props etc and there's enough of us to help out on that.

rksimple
01-02-2008, 10:03 AM
LOL...threatened? And who said we were arguing.

Just shining some light on something you absolutely have no expereience in. Hope to see you at our big event in August. Might give you a better idea when you speak about these things next time.

Roger that on the ASC type of match Rksimple. Hope us boys from NorCal have a few spots. NorCal Practical Precision Rifle Club would be more than happy to haul down some of our steel and equipment for an event like that.

Of course you guys will have some spots, especially if you bring steel! I want it to be a relaxed atmosphere where good guys get together and shoot and learn. Coaching, talking, helping, improvising is all encouraged rather than forbidden. And I don't see anything wrong with people keeping their own score. When I start working out the specifics, I'm sure I'll have some questions for you guys.

PistolPete75
01-02-2008, 10:08 AM
just a side note, guys from this forum started shooting for fun and games. everyone in this forum enjoys to shoot. i would like to keep it that way. competition is all fun, and i don't enjoy people being cocky. it wil just take the fun out of shooting. my 2 cents.

i'm definitely one of the more outspoken ones on this forum. but i have a consesus on this issue. keeping it fun is the main point. hope that no one here is loosing focus on this issue.

everything done on this forum was always done for fun and for the enjoyment of shooting. others may take it in a different light.

Prc329
01-02-2008, 10:25 AM
You know whats no fun. Shooting paper targets at 100. That is work now. Working on load accuracy, etc. What is fun is hearing that steel clang. When I get to Angeles I like shooting the steel. Paper is boring and in my opinion should only be used for competition, sighting in and checking loads.

Except for when I messed up my Zero anything under 400 yards is just no real challenge anymore. Maybe I need to try some very small targets at those ranges. It was nice they has a 1 moa target on the 400 yard line at Angeles now.

I need to get out there with you guys to shoot the long stuff with you guys. The most fun I have had shooting was the 865. I couldn't hit it at the match but I really enjoyed the process.

PistolPete75
01-02-2008, 10:29 AM
don't worry nayt, your going to have plenty of time shooting the distance.

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 10:44 AM
Hmmm - guess I'll switch from 5.5" targets to 3" targets at 300, and from 3" to 2" targets at 200 for the next match. LOL

PistolPete75
01-02-2008, 10:44 AM
do it Timber. good trainning. let's hold 1 moa from 500yard and less.

Vu 308
01-02-2008, 10:50 AM
No hard feelings PP...I am pretty outspoken myself.

Looking forward to meeting you guys down south and getting some good trigger time in.

T-Wolf..what time does a match usually end? I figure its about 6 hours from me to APS. Need to figure out some travel logistics.

Vu

wildcard
01-02-2008, 10:51 AM
ooh.. pistolpete just called timber's bluff :)

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 10:54 AM
No hard feelings PP...I am pretty outspoken myself.

Looking forward to meeting you guys down south and getting some good trigger time in.

T-Wolf..what time does a match usually end? I figure its about 6 hours from me to APS. Need to figure out some travel logistics.

Vu

My matches run from roughly 0700 (sign in and go hot at 0730) to 1200.

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 10:56 AM
do it Timber. good trainning. let's hold 1 moa from 500yard and less.

Cool :taz:

Did I mention that I have a 11" x 11" plate up on the 400 hill that we can use for the 865 yd stage. :eek:

Prc329
01-02-2008, 10:57 AM
:) That should be fun.

ar15barrels
01-02-2008, 10:58 AM
How big is the infamous 865yd buffalo now?

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 11:02 AM
How big is the infamous 865yd buffalo now?

the buff is 18"Hx24"W & the maiden is around 13"W x 18"H

ar15barrels
01-02-2008, 11:13 AM
the buff is 18"Hx24"W & the maiden is around 13"W x 18"H

I think I would prefer the buff. ;)

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 11:20 AM
I think I would prefer the buff. ;)

the buff is boring

Prc329
01-02-2008, 11:27 AM
The buffalo is a lot easier to hit since you can spot your misses. The Maiden is placed in such a way that if you miss high you won't know unless you can see the vapor trail.

ar15barrels
01-02-2008, 11:31 AM
the buff is boring

Only because you have shot at it a couple times.
I'm sure that it will not be boring for me when I finally get around to trying it. ;)

wildcard
01-02-2008, 11:32 AM
The buffalo is a lot easier to hit since you can spot your misses. The Maiden is placed in such a way that if you miss high you won't know unless you can see the vapor trail.

You also won't spot your shot if you miss left or right :(

Timberwolf
01-02-2008, 11:44 AM
I'm working on changing the location of the maiden or possibly using another similar target on the hill itself. However, for January it'll probably be the buff so everyone can get their dope. If you know your weapon and load you should be able to get on the buff within 3.