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advantage1one
12-18-2007, 6:34 AM
Does anyone know how much markup a private gun shop makes on the sale of new guns, both pistols and revolvers, and rifles/shotguns? I'm not talking about the bigger stores like Turner's and Bass Pro, but rather the independent gun shops that I would like to buy from, but they are usually much more expensive. Also, is it likely they will negotiate their prices? I've never tried, just paid what they wanted...thanks in advance for any info you may have.

Bongos
12-18-2007, 6:45 AM
From my experience, on new guns, the most on mark up is about 10%... and that is for large and small, gun store makes there money on the accessories..mark up is in the 100s of percentile. Used and consignment guns are also very good money makers (ever notice the price of a used gun is less than a new gun by about $50-$100?, well they buy guns at anywhere from 10% of the guns MSRP to at most 60%,,,this is all based on demand, rarity, and popularity of that gun...

trashman
12-18-2007, 6:58 AM
Used and consignment guns are also very good money makers (ever notice the price of a used gun is less than a new gun by about $50-$100?, well they buy guns at anywhere from 10% of the guns MSRP to at most 60%,,,this is all based on demand, rarity, and popularity of that gun...

I have heard that repeatedly over the years from dealers on both coasts; the "big" money is in used guns. I think that's even more true today since for new guns now everybody runs to gunbroker to see if cost OTD =/< cost+shipping+dros+xferfee from an out of state dealer.

glockman19
12-18-2007, 7:35 AM
Does anyone know how much markup a private gun shop makes on the sale of new guns?
Glocks cost around $75 to manufacture. Add a 250% markup to retailers & LEO and the price comes to about $190. Add the Retailer markup of 250% and you get somewhere around $465.

kurac
12-18-2007, 7:39 AM
I also believe they make more on used guns. For consignment sales the going rate is 20% and used guns move at maybe 3-5 times the rate of new guns. A desireable S&W, COLT or Winchester will normally be gone within hours of coming in. New guns from the same manufacturers may take weeks to sell and I don't know that they make 20% on those. In addition to all that, when you have a full shelf of guns on consignment, its not your money tied up there in inventory, its other peoples money which makes it even more profitable cause you can invest your cash in other areas.

FortCourageArmory
12-18-2007, 9:27 AM
Speaking as a retailer, the mark-up on new firearms is slim. Especially for those of us in small stores. Why? Because I can't afford to buy 100 of something to get the "good" deal from any of the distributors like Wal-Mart does or Turners or Bass Pro. I look for good deals on used guns because as someone said, that's where the $$ are in this business.

Auction houses are another source of great deals for the dealer....at least this dealer. And I don't mean Auction Arms or GunBroker. I mean actual auction houses like Rock Island. There are a few local auctions I go to as well looking for deals that I can turn a profit on. And as prices go, I am a firm believer that if I get a smoking hot deal on a gun, I want to pass that smoking hot deal on to my customer. Not to the point of losing money though.

As for using the Internet to buy guns to the exclusion of the local guy, remember that if you keep doing that, eventually you will drive the local guy out of business. Then who will do your transfer for you?

Soldier415
12-18-2007, 9:40 AM
As for using the Internet to buy guns to the exclusion of the local guy, remember that if you keep doing that, eventually you will drive the local guy out of business. Then who will do your transfer for you?

+ 1,000,000

I refuse to buy from the internet. I would much rather spend a few extra dollars and support my local store. Then again, my local gun shop has excellent staff and service, so I enjoy going there for whatever reason as I usually end up spending an hour or two.

zinfull
12-18-2007, 9:55 AM
Buying local is nice but if you collect C&R pistols the local shops do not have what you want. May be once a year a gun comes in and you are able to get to it before some one else does, especially the workers. So I do not like the high price for a internet transfer on something they would not carry. I am the one taking the risk if the gun or seller is good or not. I have to pay the shipping and up front money, they just have to file paper work. If I bought and brought the gun into CA it would cost $19. That is why I think anything over $40 is gross.

Jerry

bear308
12-18-2007, 10:01 AM
Glocks cost around $75 to manufacture. Add a 250% markup to retailers & LEO and the price comes to about $190. Add the Retailer markup of 250% and you get somewhere around $465.

what the hell are you talking about,

When we sold here we were getting about 60 bucks on a Glock. I sure as hell never saw a Glock come in for less than $420 from the distributors. Maybe they make a big markup but we sure as hell weren't. I don't know what deals turners runs, but thats the way it worked here.

As to the original poster, it depends on the individual business. We worked on a fixed markup from wholesale, on everything. Guns around 15% and accessories is more. If you were to walk into a store that stocks a few and they're trying to get rid of em you might get lucky. Best advise I can give you is; DO NOT mention the internet and start slow. Try to talk them down $20 this and start increasing from there, if you insult them you'll never get a deal on it.

kurac
12-18-2007, 10:21 AM
Glocks cost around $75 to manufacture. Add a 250% markup to retailers & LEO and the price comes to about $190. Add the Retailer markup of 250% and you get somewhere around $465.

Um, yeah, I am sure it takes more than an hour of maching time to mill the slide on a glock and maybe another half hour for the barrel. Thats an hour and half. Last time I was in the machining business we were getting $75-$110 per hour per machine so we can assume $112-$165 just to machine those two parts. All the other crap doesn't cost much but I would be willing to bet it costs $150-$200 to build a Glock.

bwiese
12-18-2007, 10:21 AM
Glocks cost around $75 to manufacture. Add a 250% markup to retailers & LEO and the price comes to about $190. Add the Retailer markup of 250% and you get somewhere around $465.

You're nuts.

Glocks may indeed have a *raw* cost of materials of $75 to mfgr. What about direct-to-item labor? That's probably $10/gun alone for mfgr, testing, boxing, putting on the shelf, shipping out...

But if they sold at that $85 price they'd not only not break even, they'd go broke in a screamingly dramatic fashion.

That $75 you quote, if even remotely correct, certainly does not include corporate overhead, sales overhead, etc.

And it most certainly does not include insurance/legal overhead which alone will run $70-$100 or so per gun *alone*.

It also would not include compliance testing for states that require it, and would not include any allocations for R&D development of new guns, advertising/marketing efforts, or reserves for warranty replacements, etc.

I suspect the corporate break-even cost - given all the above costs - is gonna run at least somewhere around $240ish for a Glock.

You also have to figure there's a 10% Fed excise tax for handguns, and that the distributor is gonna clear a fair amount per handgun for tying up a big chunk of cash in inventory -- the distributor can often make a bit more than the dealer on a gun sale.

rue
12-18-2007, 10:34 AM
Buying local is nice but if you collect C&R pistols the local shops do not have what you want. May be once a year a gun comes in and you are able to get to it before some one else does, especially the workers. So I do not like the high price for a internet transfer on something they would not carry. I am the one taking the risk if the gun or seller is good or not. I have to pay the shipping and up front money, they just have to file paper work. If I bought and brought the gun into CA it would cost $19. That is why I think anything over $40 is gross.

Jerry

:iagree:

QuarterBoreGunner
12-18-2007, 10:37 AM
When I was in the biz, the basic mark was either 15% or $50 bucks, whichever was higher. Accessories and ammo is where you make your real money to pay the bills, plus we had the indoor range which is pretty low overhead (reloads from Bulls-X, targets in bulk from Alco or Plumfire and lights.) We didn't usually haggle or match prices, we usually didn't have to, having the lowest in the area. Though LC Action could beat us on Glocks as they were the local distributor. Don't know if that's still true or not.

Want to make a small fortune in the gun business? Start with a large fortune and...

carl8808
12-18-2007, 11:03 AM
Maybe someone can clue me in as well on this. I have seen pistols out of CA go for a very reduced price compared to my local shops. High demand pistols like Glock, HK, and so forth usually there is not much give. however I have seen Sig's and Springfield's going for a hundred or more less online....that seems kinda strange to me.
I agree, buy from the local guys and keep it honest. However if I go into a shop and some ***** who works there gives me the "well guess you should have bought if from that shop if they have it at that price" when the guy around the corner has the same thing for 40-50 less.... I will !!!

QuarterBoreGunner
12-18-2007, 11:15 AM
Cali prices are usually higher than the national average for pretty much everything, that's part of it. Also I think a lot of the online prices are from smaller shops with in less expensive parts of the country - less overhead so they don't need to make as much on each sale to keep the lights on.
Or maybe it's the opposite for some online sellers; they're big enough that they get a break from the distributors (or maybe they ARE the distributors - we were for H&K for a long time and used to sell out of state all the time) and get a lower price 'cause they buy larger amounts.

metalhead357
12-18-2007, 5:00 PM
Well I'm gonna poo where I eat:eek: I cant comment on the rest of the makers but those comments on the Glocks might not be that far off...I dont think they're spec on but they might be a tally for the assembly line cost; but not including everything Bill had mentioned.

After years of buying from one mom&pop shop at some pretty good/ok deals I finnally hit them up when I was in the market for a Glock 26. I did some homework and asked <nicely> if they'd ship one in for me; Guy pretty much says he could still beat the prices I found. So ALL done and said-- Gun, Dros, tax AND shipping I paid a smidge under $400. I was shocked and litterally asked if he was still making any money. He said yeah- $65's worth:eek:... I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to figure the gun went through a distributor that also made some money....but that FFL clearly stated to me he was paying less than $300 on them while they lasted (Circa 2001-2002)............. but then again- them deals are HARD to find; these days I pay a different kitchen counter guy $15 above his cost and he's happy.............and he's flat out told me too the distributors are still making money..

PIRATE14
12-18-2007, 5:13 PM
Dealer on GLOCKS is 450-500 which doesn't include overnight shipping....they might run a big special but not usually.....

Only way that you might get'em cheaper is from a big buy that went bad from some LE/DEPT that balked....

If you can get a used GLOCK for 200 and sell it for 400....that's good....prolly not going to happen...

Buy one a new one for 460 and sell it for 500.....not so good....

the distros are making some bucs but they have $$$$ inventory.....the big manufactures are the guys making the $$$$

jmgray
12-18-2007, 5:39 PM
I suspect the corporate break-even cost - given all the above costs - is gonna run at least somewhere around $240ish for a Glock.

I agree, 250+ is probably more reasonable. During WWII (depending on the year), a 1911 cost any where from $15-$50 to make. That is 60 years ago, on a simpler gun, manufactured by multiple companies, on tooling that had been perfected for that model over 30 years prior, and cranking out at a very high volume.

xenophobe
12-18-2007, 6:47 PM
Glocks cost around $75 to manufacture. Add a 250% markup to retailers & LEO and the price comes to about $190. Add the Retailer markup of 250% and you get somewhere around $465.

lol what? Smoking crack is bad for your health...

Dealer cost on a Glock starts at about $430 and goes up depending on the model.

A dealer will pay $200-$300 for a used glock which can sell for $300-$400 depending on model, condition and accessories.

xenophobe
12-18-2007, 6:50 PM
Maybe someone can clue me in as well on this. I have seen pistols out of CA go for a very reduced price compared to my local shops. High demand pistols like Glock, HK, and so forth usually there is not much give. however I have seen Sig's and Springfield's going for a hundred or more less online....that seems kinda strange to me.

A lot of online dealers sell out of their houses. That reduces overhead immensely.

Some gunbroker and auctionarms dealers sell for $20-$30 over cost... they don't mind being bottomfeeders and since they're not doing any transfers, they don't have rent, mortgage, bills, etc to pay.

Turbinator
12-18-2007, 7:03 PM
I work for a company that has manufacturing overhead. The cost of this overhead is roughly 7.5% the cost of product, I've been told.

Turby

JTROKS
12-18-2007, 7:08 PM
Um, yeah, I am sure it takes more than an hour of maching time to mill the slide on a glock and maybe another half hour for the barrel. Thats an hour and half. Last time I was in the machining business we were getting $75-$110 per hour per machine so we can assume $112-$165 just to machine those two parts. All the other crap doesn't cost much but I would be willing to bet it

Yup! A machinist is about $30 - 40 an hour plus the cost of bits and machine time. If a company can get the slides, barrel and misc part machined in China that'll be a money maker. :D

JTROKS

peter455
12-18-2007, 7:42 PM
Retting has a 25-30% markup on new guns and 40-60% on accessories. Turners has a 15% markup on new guns and 30-40% on accessories. These two are the high and low.

Used gun markup is a minimum of 100%. (no one passes on a "smoking deal" to the customer)

Only wholesalers buy 100 guns at a time, and are able to take advantage of the discount hat gets you. Wholesalers have a maximum 10% markup on guns.

QuarterBoreGunner
12-18-2007, 8:06 PM
He said yeah- $65's worth... I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to figure the gun went through a distributor that also made some money....
Any one familiar with blue label Glocks?
On the old tupperware Glock box a blue label on the end meant it was an LEO Glock. Same thing as a regular Glock but sold with the LE only magazines.
Weeeell, back in the day, uhm, unscrupulous dealers would get LEO blue label Glocks (which are sold at a fantastic discount, around $325.00 for all 9mm and .40s and $355 for 10mm and .45s) and then sell them to the general public at less than retail for the area. If Glock caught a dealer doing it, they'd cut them off.

Stormfeather
12-18-2007, 8:08 PM
I was working for a security company a few years ago, and they decided to upgrade their firearms inventory from S&W Sigma series to Glock 17's. I contacted Glock directly and dealt with them. We had a regional distributor that was going to handle the transfer. Our cost, with total inventory trade-in, was going to be $328.00 per gun, for 200 pistols. That was from Glock. Im sure someone here can do the math, as Sigmas werent worth much on trade-in. As for the poster saying that Glock makes them for $75.00 each, I would have to say you are pretty much off base here. With all the overhead, labor costs, insurance, packaging, Im sure that it costs more than a mere $75.00. I for one would be interested in where you came up with that number.

4D5auto
12-18-2007, 8:53 PM
Manufacturing cost on a gun really isn't all the much. The only two people who make the real $$ are the manufacturer and the wholesaler!! Back in the day, I had my FFL and I owned a Machine Shop, trust me when I say, manufacturing costs for that product isn't that much. Especially today's Polymer Receivers, which are manufactured 99.99% Off Shore for next to absolutely nothing. Other parts are stamped, cast, with minimal one and two step machine procedures. Then you have these parts in vast quantities that don't cost that much. Example, Springer XD's, Receivers are made in Croatia.
The manufacturer mark up is between 3-500%!!!

Anyway, shops around here are from 22% and up!

glockman19
12-18-2007, 10:55 PM
what the hell are you talking about,

When we sold here we were getting about 60 bucks on a Glock. I sure as hell never saw a Glock come in for less than $420 from the distributors. Maybe they make a big markup but we sure as hell weren't. I don't know what deals turners runs, but thats the way it worked here.

As to the original poster, it depends on the individual business.

Let's face it your prices just suck on your guns and ammo too. I've bought and seen Glocks for $430 in group buys. Try reading.

Um, yeah, I am sure it takes more than an hour of maching time to mill the slide on a glock and maybe another half hour for the barrel. Thats an hour and half. Last time I was in the machining business we were getting $75-$110 per hour per machine so we can assume $112-$165 just to machine those two parts. All the other crap doesn't cost much but I would be willing to bet it costs $150-$200 to build a Glock.

I'm simply quoting from an article where Gaston Glock was quoted as saying his cost to produce one gun was $75. The article was from Forbes Magazine.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0331/064.html

You're nuts.

Glocks may indeed have a *raw* cost of materials of $75 to mfgr. What about direct-to-item labor? That's probably $10/gun alone for mfgr, testing, boxing, putting on the shelf, shipping out...

But if they sold at that $85 price they'd not only not break even, they'd go broke in a screamingly dramatic fashion.

That $75 you quote, if even remotely correct, certainly does not include corporate overhead, sales overhead, etc.

lol what? Smoking crack is bad for your health...

Dealer cost on a Glock starts at about $430 and goes up depending on the model.
Yes $430. and the most I've paid is $550 for a Glock 19 with night sights NIB 2 mags, case.

Sorry disappoint you guys:

"These days Glock GmbH has an estimated $100 million in sales, two-thirds of it from the trigger-happy United States. A gun that retails for $500 can be manufactured for $75, and the company has a pretax margin nearing 60%, estimates John Farnam of Defense Training International, a LaPorte, Colo. small arms instructor."

tenpercentfirearms
12-18-2007, 11:09 PM
I make what I can, where I can, when I can. That is what I mark items up. I try to make at least 15% but will make up to 150% if I can get away with it. I definitely spend too much time in that shop not to be making as much as possible.

Salty
12-18-2007, 11:51 PM
Keep in mind that for every hour someone is milling away on the factory floor there is typically another two hours of office work being done by someone else, especially on newer products. The office workers also get paid 2-3 times more than the factory workers.

metalhead357
12-19-2007, 5:28 AM
i think wes said along time ago they start at 440. the guy that got a glock for alittle over 400 including dros and tax got a used gun most likely


nope- NIB. From the sounds of it- I think my FFL mighta stumbled onto one of those balked contracts...... or maybe one of the blue label specials; but nope no leo mags.........

xenophobe
12-19-2007, 1:49 PM
Yeah, would have been a blue label box... but a FFL selling one of those to non-LE or non-FET exempt firearms could get in trouble if the ATF were to find out.

QuarterBoreGunner
12-19-2007, 2:13 PM
Yeah, would have been a blue label box... but a FFL selling one of those to non-LE or non-FET exempt firearms could get in trouble if the ATF were to find out. You'd be surprised at how often it happened back in the 90's. I'd be RO the range and notice a shooter with a blue label Glock box in one of the lanes. An innocent question would confirm that the owner wasn't LEO, but had just picked up their new, bargain priced Glock from a local dealer (now thankfully, out o' the gun biz).

metalhead357
12-19-2007, 2:32 PM
Yeah, would have been a blue label box... but a FFL selling one of those to non-LE or non-FET exempt firearms could get in trouble if the ATF were to find out.


so back to the balked contract idea...that or he found himself a distributor to the distributors; this shop was not "it" for the LEO so I dont think that was the route they woulda taken.....

RollingCode3
12-19-2007, 7:22 PM
Dealers usually get glock in for 440, but on the other hand, glocks do offer discount to LEOs. The LEO packages come with three mags instead of two

CRTguns
12-19-2007, 9:22 PM
Glocks cost around $75 to manufacture. Add a 250% markup to retailers & LEO and the price comes to about $190. Add the Retailer markup of 250% and you get somewhere around $465.

Dude... try and speak with some experience or fact- that way ya won't sound redikerus.
Glocks cost retailers about $440. Period.

250% retail markup? Check your math. We are lucky to clear 25% on a sale.

edittman1
12-19-2007, 11:42 PM
Usually tiers are 20-30% in all industries.

So, if something costs $300, the dealer makes 30% off that. So we'll say $100 for simplicity. Then, the distributor also marked it up 30% on $200, so it made roughly 70ish bucks. The manufacturer sold it for $130, and also made 30%. Which would be like $75 or something.

So, a glock at $525...
Dealer: 407
Distributor: 320
Manufacturer: 240

Something like that. This model does not apply to everything though obviously, and may not apply directly to the firearm market either, just some theoretical figures.

Moonclip
12-20-2007, 12:32 AM
Things vary depending on the item and the industry. Grocery stores for the most part are suppose to have thin profit margins, they make it in volume. I've heard of 50%-100% margins in other industries.

I read once it cost about $13 to make a Raven .25acp which I believe as I remember dealers selling them sometimes for $50 NIB.

Why does Glock offer such a deep discount to LE? I assume they want John Q. Public to see the local cop carrying one and think he has to have one also. Doesn't Glock have 65% of LE market? If Glock was smarter, they would the extent the LE discount or even free Glocks to rappers!

Stormfeather
12-20-2007, 2:47 AM
Let's face it your prices just suck on your guns and ammo too. I've bought and seen Glocks for $430 in group buys. Try reading.

I'm simply quoting from an article where Gaston Glock was quoted as saying his cost to produce one gun was $75. The article was from Forbes Magazine.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0331/064.html

Yes $430. and the most I've paid is $550 for a Glock 19 with night sights NIB 2 mags, case.

Sorry disappoint you guys:
"These days Glock GmbH has an estimated $100 million in sales, two-thirds of it from the trigger-happy United States. A gun that retails for $500 can be manufactured for $75, and the company has a pretax margin nearing 60%, estimates John Farnam of Defense Training International, a LaPorte, Colo. small arms instructor."



Im waiting to read Gaston Glock saying that he can make the gun for $75.00. . . havent found it yet, can you help me find it? Sorry to disaapoint you there kid, but Gaston Glock didnt day that. Re-read the article then check your facts. Or, just follow your own advice. Try Reading. . .

glockman19
12-20-2007, 7:55 AM
Stormfeather,

I tend to believe the Forbes article. So you overpay for guns.

YES Glocks cost less than $100 to manufacture, I believe the $75 figure, to produce.

Don't like it. Don't believe it? Call them up and ask them. Tel.: +1 770-432-1202. Also, LEO cost $398. I spoke with Craig in Customer Service.

I believe it.

FinweElensar
12-20-2007, 10:59 AM
As for using the Internet to buy guns to the exclusion of the local guy, remember that if you keep doing that, eventually you will drive the local guy out of business. Then who will do your transfer for you?

In my area, there's one guy who primarily does online transfers(Rob Blank). I don't think he's going anywhere.

I'm not rich enough to "support" the local guy. I gotta squeeze every dollar to buy more guns.

bear308
12-20-2007, 11:56 AM
Let's face it your prices just suck on your guns and ammo too. I've bought and seen Glocks for $430 in group buys. Try reading.


Well we sell 35,000 rounds of that "over priced" ammo every week. You should come down and get some. DO NOT attempt to single me out for having high prices on guns. All of the retailers that have chimed in this thread have been right along course with what I said. If you want to continue a delusional Jihad against myself and my business you will not enjoy what happens. See how it feels.

Anyway, if you were buying guns in group buys that are going for less than what it costs me to buy one, good for you. Hey you should try going to B & B or Pony express and look at some of the new models. OH THATS RIGHT, YA CAN'T DO THAT ANYMORE BECAUSE THEY'RE GONE.

eta34
12-20-2007, 12:04 PM
Glock does offer discounts to LEOs, but there are only certain "certified" dealers who do that program. Two in southern CA are the Orange Co. Sheriff's Range Store and ProForce in Brea.

As far as the gun shop owners "marking up" their products, why do you think they are in business? For many of these guys, this is their sole source of income. Should they sell the gun at a loss to you so you will stop whining?

I look at it much like the for sale forums on this site. If you don't like the price, find the product somewhere else.

glockman19
12-20-2007, 12:23 PM
bear308,

Don't be so over sensitive.

DO NOT attempt to single me out for having high prices on guns. All of the retailers that have chimed in this thread have been right along course with what I said. If you want to continue a delusional Jihad against myself and my business you will not enjoy what happens. See how it feels.

First, I'm NOT singling you out.

Second, But...What are you talking about? What Jihad?

Third, It's NOT your business. A little Sensitive aren't we.

Forth, Sounds like a threat to me. Thanks for putting it in writing and posting it.

I NEVER said anything about the price just the manufacturing cost. It's not going to stop me from buying them in the $450-$550 range.

The fact remains, Glocks cost less than $100 to manufacture. The article I linked to figures $75. All Glock Customer service will verify over the phone was Less than $100.

Happy Holidays

GenLee
12-20-2007, 12:23 PM
+ 1,000,000

I refuse to buy from the internet. I would much rather spend a few extra dollars and support my local store. Then again, my local gun shop has excellent staff and service, so I enjoy going there for whatever reason as I usually end up spending an hour or two.

I would love to second you on thoughts of putting local shops out of business and staying off the internet deals, However i live in San Diego, So I know of no shops here willing to sell nor transfer me a say a SAIGA, Vector AK, AR, other than a Bushy Carbon 15Ca(Junk in MHO), AR-15 mags, and only one shop who will sell me an over priced OLL with only one choice. Stag (Which i am a fan of and did buy one from him) but stil need to drive to SFV for transfers and yes thats two trips there and back as we know. If there were options here in San Diego I would agree with your post but to my knowledge there is not, so the internet is a must for me.

bear308
12-20-2007, 12:45 PM
Lets beak it down.

Don't be so over sensitive. Pot, this Kettle, how are ya



First, I'm NOT singling you out. Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
Let's face it your prices just suck on your guns and ammo too

Second, But...What are you talking about? What Jihad?

Third, It's NOT your business. Do I make my money by running the place? My name is not on th deed, but my livelihood is still at stake.

Forth, Sounds like a threat to me. Thanks for putting it in writing and posting it. anytime

I NEVER said anything about the price Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
Let's face it your prices just suck on your guns and ammo too just the manufacturing cost.
Happy Holidays

Happy Holidays too you as well.

Soldier415
12-20-2007, 12:46 PM
:lurk5:


:hide:

glockman19
12-20-2007, 1:25 PM
:chillpill:Bear,
Pot, this Kettle, how are ya ?

First, I'm NOT singling you out. Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
Let's face it your prices just suck on your guns and ammo too Truth as a defense :rolleyes:

Do I make my money by running the place? NO My name is not on the deed, but my livelihood is still at stake. :confused: It's a job, you're an employee, (nothing wrong with that). You brought it up. ;)
Forth, Sounds like a threat to me. Thanks for putting it in writing and posting it. anytime, IMHO not very bright. :whistling:

And Finally, YES, I always inquired to prices of guns I was looking at when I was a member of TFL and you were always more expensive. Your Reloaded Ammo is More expensive than Factory New loads, and I'll keep my brass thank you.

I will give credit where credit is deserved. Your Owner/Employer is a good guy. :hurray: A Fair and equitable businessman. He compensated me, you do the math, to the tune of 500 rounds of 45 ACP, apologized and refunded my membership after the Egregious behavior by other TFL Employees at another location.

Finally to all other Dealers & FFL's I feel for your margins. I think you should all get together and do Co-Op buys to get better prices, that you can pass along to customers and increase margins. If you could even get LEO pricing @ $389 a gun and sell it for $450 you're still making more dollars on the sale and passing along a better price to the public.

Paratus et Vigilans
12-20-2007, 1:51 PM
Wow . . .

Everyone is always absolutely convinved that the OTHER guy is making a pile of money and getting rich.

Unless the "other guy" is Bill Gates or Rupert Murdoch, you're wrong. Sorry.

Just the humble opinion of one who has to bring the expectations of his clients, and his potential clients, back to earth on a regular basis.

:cool2:

Soldier415
12-20-2007, 2:00 PM
*Ahem*

http://www.4estgimp.com/HL2/sigs/IBTL-Door.jpg

Mac
12-20-2007, 2:22 PM
....

OpticsPlus
12-20-2007, 2:37 PM
Trust me, we did not get into the gun business to be millionaires lol. Like others have said your dealers who buy a few at a time are getting them for $440ish, if Glock makes them for $75 (which I highly doubt the do) your local FFL is not buying them for that cheap though. With Online sellers (Yes like us) you have to markup your products less and less because you always find it cheaper. Hell our prices are low but we have seem them go for less than we can purchase them for.

QuarterBoreGunner
12-20-2007, 2:38 PM
The money is in used guns.
Maybe once upon a time.
But with the internet and so much information as to the real value of a prospective seller's used gun, not so much anymore. When a seller can go online and see, for example, on GunBroker.com (http://www.gunbroker.com/) or GunsAmerica (http://www.gunsamerica.com/) that a similar gun, in the same condition is selling for X and the dealer tells him it's worth X minus, the seller feels slighted. But what's the dealer to do? The idea is to make a profit, keep the lights on and pay the employees, plus be able to have a slight margin to purchase new stock and so the cycle goes on and on.
But if the dealer buys the gun for what it's really worth, then he needs to mark it up to an unrealistic value to make a little money. This tends to put off prospective buyers.
Therefore consignment sales is where it's at now. I'll take 20% of whatever it sells for and I'll do my best to get you the most for it, 'cause a better deal for you is a better deal for me, right? That way no one feels cheated or low-balled.

xenophobe
12-20-2007, 2:45 PM
To the consumer, it doesn't matter what it costs a manufacturer to make a gun... it doesn't matter what jobber price the wholeseller gets, it doesn't matter what price they sell to the gun dealer... It matters that the gun dealer can mark up a firearm enough to actually make a profit, not just stay in business.

A retail store has a LOT of bills they need to pay. More bills than a lot of other types of businesses... and you think insurance, rent, PG&E and other bills are easy?

There just isn't the markup in firearms that there is in any other sector of retail sales. Pawn Shops, Groceries, Clothing and Furiniture... they all have higher average profit margins...

As for used guns... a dealer doesn't make as much as you would think a lot of the time. To get used guns coming in, we often have to pay top dollar, or the seller will just take his guns elsewhere.

PIRATE14
12-20-2007, 4:31 PM
I would love to second you on thoughts of putting local shops out of business and staying off the internet deals, However i live in San Diego, So I know of no shops here willing to sell nor transfer me a say a SAIGA, Vector AK, AR, other than a Bushy Carbon 15Ca(Junk in MHO), AR-15 mags, and only one shop who will sell me an over priced OLL with only one choice. Stag (Which i am a fan of and did buy one from him) but stil need to drive to SFV for transfers and yes thats two trips there and back as we know. If there were options here in San Diego I would agree with your post but to my knowledge there is not, so the internet is a must for me.

So you haven't seen my new store post.......

Now back on topic......

RELOAD243
12-20-2007, 5:43 PM
Let's face it your prices just suck on your guns and ammo too. I've bought and seen Glocks for $430 in group buys. Try reading.



I'm simply quoting from an article where Gaston Glock was quoted as saying his cost to produce one gun was $75. The article was from Forbes Magazine.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0331/064.html




Yes $430. and the most I've paid is $550 for a Glock 19 with night sights NIB 2 mags, case.

Sorry disappoint you guys:

"These days Glock GmbH has an estimated $100 million in sales, two-thirds of it from the trigger-happy United States. A gun that retails for $500 can be manufactured for $75, and the company has a pretax margin nearing 60%, estimates John Farnam of Defense Training International, a LaPorte, Colo. small arms instructor."
Better learn to read, the article says "an instructor in colo says it cost $75 to make" and he does not say where he came up with that idea...

CRTguns
12-20-2007, 8:35 PM
You're nuts.

Glocks may indeed have a *raw* cost of materials of $75 to mfgr. What about direct-to-item labor? That's probably $10/gun alone for mfgr, testing, bo...............fair amount per handgun for tying up a big chunk of cash in inventory -- the distributor can often make a bit more than the dealer on a gun sale.

that's funny- Even Bill says so. I though I was going out on a limb saying something negative about "Glockman's" own reality.

Maybe Glockman should change his name... to something like malicious gun-related-rumor-man. Maybe.


I heard he was an *********** or something- and there's ****** of him *****************************. And he ******** his ******right out the window while driving on *************.
And he's got an ****** who can ********* any day of the week. So*******************************************. AAAAND he ********************************************.
With all due respect.

radioactivelego
12-20-2007, 9:29 PM
Glocks cost around $75 to manufacture. Add a 250% markup to retailers & LEO and the price comes to about $190. Add the Retailer markup of 250% and you get somewhere around $465.If you were able to machine illegal aliens out of scrap 6061-T4 then maybe it would cost that much.

It's the distributor that marks the **** out of the guns. Easily 30-50% of the final cost can be had in distributor fields depending on the brand.

M5police
12-20-2007, 9:42 PM
I havent seen a single dealer in CA sell a Glock for $475.00 or so. Everyone is in the high 520s and even 600 for a Glock. Distributors such as RSR and some other ones sell it to dealers for $440.00 plus shipping unless you are LEO then its around 380 or 390 I dont remember under Glocks LE/Military discount program. Most places outside of CA mark up their guns 25-50 bucks depending on the dealer, but here it seems like going rates can vary all the up to a hundred bucks or more. This of course Iam referring to bay area/large city prices. Im sure prices may be lower in the stix.

And for everyones information. I remember 7 years ago when a Federal Inspector from the Dept of Treasury had his issued Glock 17 with night sights stolen out of his truck. Dont ask why he put it in an unlocked glovebox. The Treasury department charged him $250.00 to replace his firearm. Now they wouldnt have done that unless they can buy the gun at that low ball price that civvies cant.

tenpercentfirearms
12-20-2007, 9:50 PM
Finally to all other Dealers & FFL's I feel for your margins. I think you should all get together and do Co-Op buys to get better prices, that you can pass along to customers and increase margins. If you could even get LEO pricing @ $389 a gun and sell it for $450 you're still making more dollars on the sale and passing along a better price to the public.
You might feel my pain, but you don't understand the gun business. Why do you think it is that not a single wholesaler in this whole country sells Glocks for anything less than $440? If they do, they will not wholesale Glocks anymore.

Do you think authorized Glock LEO dealers can just sell their guns cheaper? No. All Glock LEO orders require mounds of paperwork and they can only be sold to LEOs, not anyone else.

Glock very carfully controls the pricing and you can't just make a "co-op" and get Glocks cheaper. The only thing you can do as a dealer is join in on the Glock Stocking Dealer program and get them for $405 once a year. Last year I bought 5 or 10 this way. The limit is 15 guns. This year I will buy 15 without hesitation.

Guys who offer Glocks for $440 are either whole salers or people who work for free. My Glock price is currently $550. It costs money to keep them in stock. If you want to go find one somewhere else, that is fine. There are always plenty of customers who will come in and spend the money at the shop. It really, honestly isn't a big deal. You could probably even ask for a few bucks off or order a lot of guns for me and I will cut you a break. I don't take any of this gun business too seriously.

Moonclip
12-20-2007, 11:47 PM
Well we sell 35,000 rounds of that "over priced" ammo every week. You should come down and get some. DO NOT attempt to single me out for having high prices on guns. All of the retailers that have chimed in this thread have been right along course with what I said. If you want to continue a delusional Jihad against myself and my business you will not enjoy what happens. See how it feels.

Anyway, if you were buying guns in group buys that are going for less than what it costs me to buy one, good for you. Hey you should try going to B & B or Pony express and look at some of the new models. OH THATS RIGHT, YA CAN'T DO THAT ANYMORE BECAUSE THEY'RE GONE.


I also don't shoot at firing line range as IIRC it is $18 to shoot if you don't buy thier ammunition which I consider expensive. People buy firing line ammo because of this or beacuse they are casual occasional shooters that don't really keep up with what ammo can be purchased or reloaded for. Also I have had issues with attitudes of some of the help at the HB location so I'd rather spend elsewhere. And B&B closed for many reasons besides internet competition.

And believe me, as long as guns are allowed, there will be someone in business to supply them, kind of a survival of the fittest thing. Turners seems to survive even with all the internet competition. If your business can't compete or be inovative to prevent it???

In bear308's defense I was involved the an indoor range before also and I feel your pain. Believe me people, no ones really getting filthy rich in that industry generally. It's hard to in whats essentially a hobby business.

Moonclip
12-21-2007, 12:00 AM
Maybe once upon a time.
But with the internet and so much information as to the real value of a prospective seller's used gun, not so much anymore. When a seller can go online and see, for example, on GunBroker.com (http://www.gunbroker.com/) or GunsAmerica (http://www.gunsamerica.com/) that a similar gun, in the same condition is selling for X and the dealer tells him it's worth X minus, the seller feels slighted. But what's the dealer to do? The idea is to make a profit, keep the lights on and pay the employees, plus be able to have a slight margin to purchase new stock and so the cycle goes on and on.
But if the dealer buys the gun for what it's really worth, then he needs to mark it up to an unrealistic value to make a little money. This tends to put off prospective buyers.
Therefore consignment sales is where it's at now. I'll take 20% of whatever it sells for and I'll do my best to get you the most for it, 'cause a better deal for you is a better deal for me, right? That way no one feels cheated or low-balled.

I sorta agree with you but with some observations. Remember dealers can't buy a lot of non listed handguns out there so they have to do a consignment even if they feel they can make more buying it outright.

And I know a dealer that charges 40% consignment fee and stil gets in a fair amount of consignments! I really doubt though that people checking online auction sites is really hurting gun dealers trying to buy used guns from the walk in. I doubt your average gun seller does so. I think a lot of a gun delaers bread and butter used gun buys for resale is like the widow selling her hsubands guns. A 90yo woman is not generally going to look at gunsamaerica or a blue book and then walk in and demand close to their pricing. And the unscrupulous dealer will financially rape her.

Consignments are a great deal for all I feel. If I'm consigning guns I don't have to deal with shady people or tire kickers myself, the dealer does and he puts my stuff in front of alot of interested customers. The dealer maked 20-30% without and cash outlay of his own. The customer gets a decent deal in some cases, of interesting and older guns that are hard to find in California. I almost never buy new guns, I've only bought one this year IIRC and like 15 used ones, many that were on consignment.

bear308
12-21-2007, 5:05 PM
I also don't shoot at firing line range as IIRC it is $18 to shoot if you don't buy thier ammunition which I consider expensive. People buy firing line ammo because of this or beacuse they are casual occasional shooters that don't really keep up with what ammo can be purchased or reloaded for. Also I have had issues with attitudes of some of the help at the HB location so I'd rather spend elsewhere.

It actually doesn't matter whether you purchase ammo from us or not. It's always $18 for the first on a lane, unless they are members. However additional shooters are less. 3 people on a lane @ TFL = $36, # people @ ASR = 36. It'd be cool if it were cheaper, however we are packed a lot. Supply and demand in action.

I have a guy that shoots ~400 rounds of our ammo every week ( been doing so for over ten years.) I understand that it is more expensive than other places, but we are selling it (and it's still the same markup that it started out as).

And I am sorry that you had an issue in HB, they have made a few changes over the last year. You might want to swing in and check em out. If your ever up in my neck of the woods swing buy, I'll set you up with the "special price".:)

I'd like to apologize for some my muddying of this thread earlier, it didn't need to be responded to, but I have a hard time not responding.

Blue
12-21-2007, 5:18 PM
Stormfeather,

I tend to believe the Forbes article. So you overpay for guns.

YES Glocks cost less than $100 to manufacture, I believe the $75 figure, to produce.

Don't like it. Don't believe it? Call them up and ask them. Tel.: +1 770-432-1202. Also, LEO cost $398. I spoke with Craig in Customer Service.

I believe it.

Also, they're made out of country right?

CRTguns
12-22-2007, 11:03 AM
Wes and Bill And Myself all say authoritatively, that Glockman is wrong. Does this constitute libel or slander? So be it. Yer wrong dude.

MedSpec65
12-22-2007, 11:34 AM
It's the gun and pistol smithing aspect of the business I'm curious about. I've noticed my local dealer is not real anxious to perform custom work on my pistol, especially during hunting season when he's busy tuning rifles. I've got a feeling the market doesn't allow much profit margin on repair and custom smithing work. Also, certified gunsmiths are hard to find.

FinalBoss
12-22-2007, 2:44 PM
Top Glock usually has the best Glock prices. TopGlock.com.
Right now they have free shipping too. So, high 400s for a Glock, free shipping, and DROS @ Bright Spot Pawn or Cold War Shooters and you are good to go.

The way I see it, support your local stores but they must realize that they must evolve with the times or close up shop. Offer something that the internet sellers cant (which is a low price). Things like GREAT customer service and a good purchase experience. Just my .02.

Fjold
12-22-2007, 6:35 PM
The cost of raw materials and the unit time to produce the gun may be $75, averaging it over the thousands of guns produced.

But add in their corporate overhead including, adminstrative costs, taxes, shipping, insurance, govenrment fees and licenses, advertising, tooling costs, building maintenance, etc.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of other costs that have to be added in to the total costs of the product.

FinalBoss
12-22-2007, 11:48 PM
I think the Internet has caused local stores to evolve. It helps level the playing field. That does not mean stores are not going to have higher prices than the Internet. Stores have to pay rent and salaries so they are probably not neting any more than the Internet stores. Internet is fine for things local stores don't sell or if you are "well informed" and know exactly what you want to buy. However, storefronts are much better when you need to ask questions, touch and feel merchandise, compare things side to side, etc. That adds value and is worth paying a little more for. At some point in time all of us had to "learn". I prefer to deal with local / regional dealers and FFL's because they are in business to support me.

That is where "service" comes in. TPF, CWS, Lanworld, and others here provide great service. You are not getting ripped off if you pay a little more with them. Support your local dealer and FFL unless they give bad service (more than just once) or have really bad pricing. Everyone just has to decide for themselves what $ difference on a firearm would cause them to go to an Internet vendor.

Very well put. =)

CALI-gula
12-23-2007, 12:01 AM
How much do gun shops make?

Well, they don't make much. Most of the items they sell are made by other companies or manufacturers.

Some gun shops offer re-loaded ammo, so you could say they make that, but overall, they only sell goods that are made by other entities. I know some gun shops that make mountains out of mole-hills, or make Iggy mad, or make people wish they never entered their gun shop, or make up their own gun laws, or make many mistakes, or make up some really good stories about the items they sell (which other people might simply call "lies" or "ignorance") however, you have to give them credit for making something after all. ;)

.

Blue
12-23-2007, 12:08 AM
Not enough or they'd be a more popular business.

Para
12-23-2007, 3:21 PM
people must make a profit to stay in business. Is there something wrong with that?

You have the choice of if you want to buy from them. The internet makes it really easy.

Its Capitalism wheres the problem?

thedrickel
12-23-2007, 3:47 PM
people must make a profit to stay in business. Is there something wrong with that?

You have the choice of if you want to buy from them. The internet makes it really easy.

Its Capitalism wheres the problem?

That's what I say about illegal immigrants and the US labor market :D

Para
12-23-2007, 3:52 PM
good point!

valleyrat
12-24-2007, 10:47 AM
or make up their own gun laws

.

True dat. I was at a store in Culver City and overheard a salesperson telling a customer that he "could only shoot his registered AW on state designated locations". I really couldn't believe my ears.