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View Full Version : SBR Question, are folders considered SBR?


Boomer1961
12-14-2007, 5:09 PM
As defined by IGGY and the rest of the girls at DOJ.

Is a rifle, for the purpose of measuring the 26" length requirement, done on a folding stock firearm with the stock folded?

I ask because it is clear from the Federal standpoint it is not, only measured with the folding stock open (but if it is a readily removable stock then it is different, kind of strange).

Now I see this auction for an UZI barrel which says in CA it must be 18" so it is over 26" long when measured with stock folded. I knew about the Michigan law that said this and even could find it on the states website
.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=87340271

A little more confusing for CA as they only say.

"(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
< span class="description">(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.

(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person."

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

Now I always thought that CA followed most everyone on this and measured with the stock open and not like Michigan which I have been aware of for some time.

More confusing is I thought that they sold the folding stock UZI's and AK's with 16"+ a little" barrels before each of the assault weapons bans and if so these would have been less than 26" overall when folded.

Is this dealer blowing smoke up everyone's skirt to get more sales?

Anyone else have a lawfully registered AW UZI, AK, other that is less than 26" when stock is folded?

Anyone of some links to post to sites that are allowed to speak definitively to the states interpretation?

My searching at this forum and on Google was not clear on this, mostly by not talking about such specific to CA.

THANKS EVERYONE!

dustoff31
12-14-2007, 5:25 PM
More confusing is I thought that they sold the folding stock UZI's and AK's with 16"+ a little" barrels before each of the assault weapons bans and if so these would have been less than 26" overall when folded. THANKS EVERYONE!

They did sell them that way. I have an A model with a 16" barrel that I bought in the early 80's and registered in the '91 go round.

It's in AZ and I'm here right now so I can't measure it, but I'm sure it's over 26". Although maybe not by much. Will be going back to AZ Sunday, if no one else has the info by then, I'll measure it and post.

JHC
12-14-2007, 5:50 PM
Either way Fed minimum is 26, CA is 30 inches

ke6guj
12-14-2007, 7:39 PM
CA's stock folded 26" minumum ruling is via case law, IIRC.

JHC, CA's 30" law only applies to semi-autos. If under 30", then they are an AW by just that fact. IF it was single-shot, bolt, pump, or lever-action, then the 26" length rules apply.

Clodbuster
12-14-2007, 9:19 PM
Correction: 30" AW law applies to semi-auto CENTERFIRE rifles.

CLod

CA's stock folded 26" minumum ruling is via case law, IIRC.

JHC, CA's 30" law only applies to semi-autos. If under 30", then they are an AW by just that fact. IF it was single-shot, bolt, pump, or lever-action, then the 26" length rules apply.

ke6guj
12-14-2007, 9:43 PM
Doh, forgot to mention that part. Thanks for the clarification.

bwiese
12-14-2007, 9:46 PM
CA's stock folded 26" minumum ruling is via case law, IIRC.

Correct. Yeah - Raffles, Ruggles, something like that.

Boomer1961
12-14-2007, 10:39 PM
CA's stock folded 26" minumum ruling is via case law, IIRC.

JHC, CA's 30" law only applies to semi-autos. If under 30", then they are an AW by just that fact. IF it was single-shot, bolt, pump, or lever-action, then the 26" length rules apply.


Hey thanks, any link to that ruling?

For Federal Law
27 CFR sec. 179.11. On a folding stock weapon you measure with
the stock extended, provided the stock is not readily detachable,
and the weapon is meant to be fired from the shoulder.


Also out of curiosity, since so many were sold with 16" barrels what is everyone doing to make their firearm safe?

Specifically if I hypothetically owned a Pre-ban but lawfully registered Norinco AK assault weapon and it was just a tad shy of 26" when folded could I just add the AK-74 break which would make it 27" when folded?

I hate to think of the tens of thousands of californians with folding stock AK's and Uzi's that are breaking "case law" that is not well advertised.

I guess for my Uzi I will have to get that 18" barrel, but that is a rather easy and cheap fix considering. In the meantime I guess I will mount the wood stock.

I have heard of this before and posted about this but received the "if it is a folder it is measured without it folded" response.

Man, CA gun laws are confusing and if you own firearms in CA you will end up breaking the law by just taking a nap and missing the latest thing against the law like I did with my practice grenade (the one mounted on a plaque that said COMPLAINT DEPARTMENT PLEASE TAKE A NUMBER) which I had to throw away because I found out that like 5 years earlier they made it a felony to have dummy ordnance.

Boomer1961
12-14-2007, 11:12 PM
Wow, my .015 seconds of fame!:D

Use to be 15 minutes, then 1.5 minutes, then 15 seconds, then 1.5 seconds, but now they only have time for 0.015 seconds.

I did a google search on this topic and this thread was like the third item!

Hurrah CALGUNS!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=California+short+barrel+rifle+26%22+folding+stoc k&btnG=Google+Search:D

Oh, and I also found this one

People vs Rooney (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/people_v_rooney.txt)

ke6guj
12-14-2007, 11:33 PM
Correct. Yeah - Raffles, Ruggles, something like that.

CLose. Rooney.

Hey thanks, any link to that ruling?


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/people_v_rooney.txt


edit: I see that Boomer already found Rooney.

Boomer1961
12-15-2007, 12:04 AM
CLose. Rooney.




http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/people_v_rooney.txt


edit: I see that Boomer already found Rooney.


.....and I still wonder....

.....what nearly 10,000 californians by my estimate.....

....maybe less, maybe more.....

did as they bought these things as well as I.....

But it would appear a flash hider by that case law would be enough, maybe a pipe bubble gummed to the uzi would be enough as well.

I still wonder how folks could purchase these things even after this ruling though, is it an obscure ruling like the obscure 922 that gets everyone's panties bunched up and buying Tapco junk to put in their weapon as assembly of the foriegn evil feature weapon is verboten and George Dubya Bush the junior of juniors has BATFEabcxyz out to get all of us!

Well it looks like $100 for an 18" uzi barrel and $30 for an AK flash hider this week but like so much like a total waste, ya know what I mean, a total complete waste where I could donate that money to the homeless instead to the gun accessory industry that promotes these obscure bans to sell more product.

Ford8N
12-15-2007, 5:07 AM
.....and I still wonder....

.....what nearly 10,000 californians by my estimate.....

....maybe less, maybe more.....

did as they bought these things as well as I.....

But it would appear a flash hider by that case law would be enough, maybe a pipe bubble gummed to the uzi would be enough as well.

I still wonder how folks could purchase these things even after this ruling though, is it an obscure ruling like the obscure 922 that gets everyone's panties bunched up and buying Tapco junk to put in their weapon as assembly of the foriegn evil feature weapon is verboten and George Dubya Bush the junior of juniors has BATFEabcxyz out to get all of us!

Well it looks like $100 for an 18" uzi barrel and $30 for an AK flash hider this week but like so much like a total waste, ya know what I mean, a total complete waste where I could donate that money to the homeless instead to the gun accessory industry that promotes these obscure bans to sell more product.

Always, always remember, these gun laws are not about safety or crime. They are all about discouraging gun ownership, nothing else. Hell, even the idiots that write this waste don't even understand what's going on.

socalguns
12-15-2007, 7:22 AM
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalCalifornia
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/CaseRefCARooney

Boomer1961
12-15-2007, 3:09 PM
Hey everyone,

I want to thank you all for your kindly responses, I know they took time to do so this is greatly appreciated.:D

I even found better search terms to use on google like "case law" that helped me find the Rooney thing.

Anyone know if there have been other instances of this decision being used to prosecute, or at least persecute (take guns away and wag their finger at you!).:eek: