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Mustang
06-29-2013, 3:01 PM
I've been interested in Palma and F class matches for a few years now, but was not sure about how much it might take to get into it.

Earlier this week I glommed this Winchester 70 .308 rifle at an auction.



Comes with a Hart barrel and OK Weber sights. I've obviously heard good things about Hart barrels, but does anyone know anything about OK Weber sights?

Better pics when it arrives.

Ahhnother8
06-29-2013, 3:39 PM
Otto Weber does not make sights. He sells British and German ones and is out of Oregon. Great guy and can be very helpful. The rear sight looks like an RPA or Paramount. Either work quite well. Cannot tell for sure what the front is, but it may be Anschutz. It appears to also be set up for a Unertl scope. Load up some rounds and come out and shoot.

www.okweber.com

Zenja
06-29-2013, 3:57 PM
I always wished they made a LH version of Win 70,
one of the all time cool long range accurate rifles
Z

Mustang
06-29-2013, 4:30 PM
Otto Weber does not make sights. He sells British and German ones and is out of Oregon. Great guy and can be very helpful. The rear sight looks like an RPA or Paramount. Either work quite well. Cannot tell for sure what the front is, but it may be Anschutz. It appears to also be set up for a Unertl scope. Load up some rounds and come out and shoot.

www.okweber.com

Thanks, Ahhnother.

There was only the one pic and a very spare description (basically Winchester 70, Hart Barrel and OK Weber sights), so I don't know much about this rifle, such as round count, etc. Hopefully it is a good shooter.

I wouldn't be surprised about the Unertl sight blocks...this auction featured many target type rifles, including a bunch with Unertl scopes. The rifles and scopes were separated and sold separately, with the scopes usually going for more that the rifles.

The rifles that had target sights were sold with the sights.

Do target shooters still use the Unertl style scopes and are they competetive?

phish
06-29-2013, 5:23 PM
Unertl's are more for collectors. They'll still work if in good condition, but most just put a rail on top and get an apropriate scope.

I don't know if the RPA or Paramount sights use the Redfield iron sight mounting system. Since they're of Commonwealth origin, probably not. :p

hopefully the barrel has some life left in it

I shot my Winchester in a couple of f-class matches. It was more comfortable to shoot than my Savage since I have an adjustable stock. I've since gone with a Barnard in an Eliseo chasis, so it fits me perfectly.

Mustang
06-29-2013, 5:30 PM
I'm hoping it still has some life in it.

I knew I was taking a risk, so I bid accordingly.

Pthfndr
06-29-2013, 6:03 PM
Nice rifle Steve. Put a scope on it for shooting F Class in a t-shirt during the hot summer months and use the iron sights for shooting Palma when it gets cooler and you can use a shooting coat.

mattt
06-29-2013, 6:20 PM
Rob are you ncppr guys shooting the next 3x600?

russ69
06-29-2013, 6:35 PM
I always wished they made a LH version of Win 70, one of the all time cool long range accurate rifles...

Gary Anderson had no trouble winning NRA championships shooting a right hand gun left handed. Including rapid fire. (I never could but I'm no Gary Anderson)

russ69
06-29-2013, 6:41 PM
I'm hoping it still has some life in it.

I knew I was taking a risk, so I bid accordingly.

No risk there, that is a fine rifle. Back in the 60s and 70s the national rifle matches would be full of these rifles. It was pretty standard equipment before the AR-15 took over the world. If the rifle has a stripper clip guide and an internal magazine, it was probably used to shoot NRA highpower. If it's single shot, it was used for NRA long range shooting. You have a nice Palma/NRA match rifle.
Take a close up of the rear sight and we can tell you what it is. Worse case, it needs a new barrel but you can still win matches with this kind of rig. Oh, please tell us what your winning bid was.

Mustang
06-29-2013, 6:52 PM
No risk there, that is a fine rifle. Back in the 60s and 70s the national rifle matches would be full of these rifles. It was pretty standard equipment before the AR-15 took over the world. If the rifle has a stripper clip guide and an internal magazine, it was probably used to shoot NRA highpower. If it's single shot, it was used for NRA long range shooting. You have a nice Palma/NRA match rifle.
Take a close up of the rear sight and we can tell you what it is. Worse case, it needs a new barrel but you can still win matches with this kind of rig. Oh, please tell us what your winning bid was.



Thanks, Russ. got it for $650 plus a 15% "buyer's premium...call it $750.

Did I do OK?

Mustang
06-29-2013, 6:54 PM
Nice rifle Steve. Put a scope on it for shooting F Class in a t-shirt during the hot summer months and use the iron sights for shooting Palma when it gets cooler and you can use a shooting coat.

Thanks Rob.

Saw you at the clean up today, but didn't get a chance to say hi.

I would love to find a decent deal on a Unertl scope and see what this can do with an old school set up.

Fjold
06-29-2013, 7:20 PM
I always wished they made a LH version of Win 70,
one of the all time cool long range accurate rifles
Z

They do.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/Guns/DSC01296.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Fjold/media/Guns/DSC01296.jpg.html)

Pthfndr
06-29-2013, 8:37 PM
Thanks Rob.

Saw you at the clean up today, but didn't get a chance to say hi.

I would love to find a decent deal on a Unertl scope and see what this can do with an old school set up.

This guy sells Unertl scopes http://unertl.alexweb.net/for_sale.htm

russ69
06-29-2013, 9:07 PM
Thanks, Russ. got it for $650 plus a 15% "buyer's premium...call it $750. Did I do OK?

I think so. It would cost 3 or 4 times that to build a better rifle. Without the original barrel, the collector value is lower but I think these rifles are under valued mostly because there are so few target shooters/collectors competing for these guns. I'd buy these all day long at 750 each.

Mustang
06-30-2013, 6:15 AM
This guy sells Unertl scopes http://unertl.alexweb.net/for_sale.htm


Thanks for the link, Rob.



I think so. It would cost 3 or 4 times that to build a better rifle. Without the original barrel, the collector value is lower but I think these rifles are under valued mostly because there are so few target shooters/collectors competing for these guns. I'd buy these all day long at 750 each.


Thanks, Russ.

I posted this picture on a long range shooting forum and someone recognized the rear sight. As Annnother8 suspected, it is an RPA Trakker sight.

I'll have to wait for it to arrive and hope that it is a good shooter.

Mustang
07-01-2013, 9:53 AM
Got some good news from a poster on another Forum (Long Range Target Shooting). He was actually at the auction that I won this rifle at (I was bidding on line). He stated that all the rifle were in excellent shape.

Also advised that he had gotten two target rifles and that both came with logs...one had 300 rounds through it and the other 30. Apparently the prior owner, who is deceased, was a long time Camp Perry shooter and had lost his sight about 12 years ago. That sure seems sad.

Mustang
07-02-2013, 10:15 AM
Got some more good news today. I spoke with the gun store owner who is handling the shipments for the auction house. They advised that many of the rifles from the auction came with shooting logs and some even came with brass. Whatever came to them with the rifle will be shipped with the rifle.

He was not at his store, so he could not say whether my rifle came with brass or a log, but it might.

I found the prior owner's obituary on line...sounded like a great American.

russ69
07-02-2013, 10:55 AM
... Apparently the prior owner, who is deceased, was a long time Camp Perry shooter and had lost his sight about 12 years ago. That sure seems sad.

We all have to die but at least our guns can live for another match with a new shooter.

Mustang
07-24-2013, 3:48 PM
The rifle arrived at my FFL and I had a chance to look it over before it started the 10 day waiting period. I did take the sights with me.

The rear is an RPA Trakker and in great shape.

Fjold
07-24-2013, 4:04 PM
Good for you! The right handed can work for F class prone because you use the front rest/bipod so your right hand is free to work the bolt. Palma will much more difficult since you will have to reach over the top of your gun with your left hand. You are going to disturb your butt position and lose your sling tension since you don't want to break your lock with your right hand and have the glove on.

five.five-six
07-24-2013, 4:09 PM
nice find!

Mustang
07-24-2013, 4:11 PM
Thanks, guys.

The barrel is a very heavy Hart 30" barrel and is in great shape. Trigger is adjustable and excellent and the action has been bedded.

highpower790
07-24-2013, 5:53 PM
there is one very similar on GB now.post 70 Win,Obermeyer barrel,Jewel Trigger,Paramount Rear and Tompkins front sight .

Mustang
07-24-2013, 7:12 PM
Can you provide a link? I can't seem to find it on GB.

Thanks

killshot44
07-24-2013, 7:51 PM
Bring it up to SacValley, 2nd weekend of the month.
Got a Palma match on Saturday and a 3x1,000 on Sunday.

Excellent find.

Mustang
07-25-2013, 8:33 PM
I'll definitely do that.

Mustang
08-27-2013, 7:07 PM
Finally picked up my Winchester "long range rifle" from my FFL.

It looks great and I believe it has some potential...



Trigger is GREAT! Anyone recognize what it is?

ar15barrels
08-28-2013, 12:33 AM
Trigger is GREAT! Anyone recognize what it is?

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/grant729/British/7064a2cd-1a49-4d5d-bc70-b065a63b7ab0_zpsf1743b66.jpg

Jewel HVR.

Mustang
08-28-2013, 6:08 AM
Jewel HVR.


Thanks, barrels.

Is that a good one?

Fjold
08-28-2013, 8:57 PM
Thanks, barrels.

Is that a good one?

Excellent trigger.

ar15barrels
08-29-2013, 12:59 AM
Thanks, barrels.

Is that a good one?

Excellent bench trigger.
Don't get it dirty though.

Gutz
08-29-2013, 1:02 AM
Nice find!

Twinspool
08-29-2013, 4:42 AM
Didn't Noma put ~15k rounds through a model 70 early in her career?

Mustang
08-29-2013, 5:55 AM
Thanks, guys.

I'm trying to decide what to do about the scope. I could put a lot of money into a Unertl scope and use the mounting blocks or use the existing holes to mount a modern scope.

The front holes are about .875" apart and the the rear holes are about .440" apart. Does that sound like standard?

What is the best type of scope base for F class?

russ69
08-29-2013, 9:02 AM
Unertls are great scopes with nice long eye relief but they are obsolete. The external micrometer adjustments are exposed to the elements and a little dirt under a turret and you loose your zero. You'll want a receiver mounted scope on a 20 MOA picatiny rail.

Mustang
08-29-2013, 9:18 PM
Thanks, Russ.

NorCalFocus
08-29-2013, 9:24 PM
Saw your post on sniper central.

Awesome looking shooting stick sir.

Mustang
08-30-2013, 7:48 PM
Thanks, Focus

6mmintl
08-31-2013, 7:14 AM
cartridge is too big and recoil will kill you, the new hot cartridge is the 7.62x39mm Lapua.

killshot44
09-01-2013, 12:03 AM
cartridge is too big and recoil will kill you, the new hot cartridge is the 7.62x39mm Lapua.

Now here was a nice 30+ post thread and you had to go and do that.....

Wrangler John
09-01-2013, 4:44 AM
Thanks, guys.

I'm trying to decide what to do about the scope. I could put a lot of money into a Unertl scope and use the mounting blocks or use the existing holes to mount a modern scope.

The front holes are about .875" apart and the the rear holes are about .440" apart. Does that sound like standard?

What is the best type of scope base for F class?

That is the standard hole spacing for target scope bases. Here is the place where everything is available: https://www.championshooters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=featured&Itemid=101 The distance between the bases is critical to the click value of the rear mount on the Unertl, your rifle will already be set up correctly.

I have two Unertl Target Scopes, a 2" Target in 20x and a 1-1/2" Target in 20x with a 10x interchangeable eyepiece (no they are not for sale). I used these for hunting varmints for years on a .22-250 Remington 40X BR rifle with a 27.25" barrel (Hart barrels were factory installed by Remington). Those scopes cost new, $122.00 and $107.00, the old 1-1/4" Target scope I sold off years ago cost $89.84 from Esmans' in the early 1970's. About five years ago I contacted Unertl for parts and mounts all of which were available. Changing out a set of mounts ran $350, more than the scope cost originally. They were planning to reintroduce the 1-1/2" (IIRC) scope as a retro project. I am not aware if they are still in business.

There was never any problems getting dirt under the rear external adjustments and loosing zero, even in the dusty conditions of a Central California cattle ranch. When looking through these scopes the clarity and brightness is astounding, especially the 2" and Programmer my buddy bought.

I sat behind a fallen tree and managed to kill 37 ground squirrels at ranges from 75 to 200 yards within about twenty minutes using the 2" Target Scope with nary a hiccup. The "boing" of the recoil spring at every shot is entertaining. I finally had to move to a new position as the landscape ran out of squirrels. The total carnage was in excess of 200 squirrels that day and the scope never missed a beat.

They may be obsolete (although I saw a benchrest shooter using a new custom high end scope of a similar pattern recently at the range, the name escapes me) many precision shooters are "freezing" the internal adjustments of current scopes and fitting them to custom externally adjusted mounts. What goes around - comes around.

For the .308 you'll want a Unertl with Posa-Mounts and bases. And maybe the Magnum Clamp Ring for the recoil spring.

Hart barrels are among the finest made. I had one custom made for me last year in .204 Ruger to fit a M-4 Colt Carbine and Hart made it to my exact specifications. It is a sub .5 MOA shooter. Every Hart barrel I have owned has been particularly accurate.