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glockman19
12-08-2007, 8:50 AM
From today's LA Times.
The State Fish & Game Commission has expanded it's ban on the use of lead ammunition in hunting grounds that also are home to California Condors.
Earlier this year, the state Legislature outlawed most lead ammunition in hunting rifles, saying that rare California condors suffer lead poisioning when they eat animal carcuses left behind by hunters. Friday's 3-1 voteby game commissioners goes further, however, and prohibits the use of lead in firearms that are .22 caliber or smaller.
"It's important because it you talk to condor recovery biologists, the #1 threat to condor recovery is lead poisioning," said Kim Delfino, a representative of the group Defenders of Wildlife. With only about 300 California condors left, 17 of the birds statewide were found this year to have lead poisioning.
The New regulations go nto effect July 1, 2008.

johnny_22
12-08-2007, 9:37 AM
From Associated Press:

"
The regulation bans hunters from using lead ammunition in .22 caliber or smaller guns -- often used to kill smaller animals like squirrels and rabbits -- that lawmakers did not include because there are no non-lead bullets on the market for those guns. Commissioners said they hoped their rule would encourage manufacturers to make alternatives."

http://cbs13.com/local/ammunition.california.condor.2.606561.html

Well, there is one company in Canada working on it and a few in Europe, but, none for sale,yet!

Thank you DFG for stopping rabbit and squirrel hunting in the central valley.

mk19
12-08-2007, 9:51 AM
this is just a bunch of bs, dictatorship. lets see what are mainly all bullets made out of?? lead ofcourse. what the hell are you suppose to use now to shoot small varmints with?
THANKS SAM PAREDES YOU RETARD.

Kiba
12-08-2007, 10:10 AM
Thank you DFG for stopping rabbit and squirrel hunting in the central valley.

By how I read the bill most of the Central Valley is excluded.

Is there a handy-dandy DFG map yet showing the "no lead" zones?

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_0801-0850/ab_821_bill_20071013_chaptered.html

3004.5. (a) Nonlead centerfire rifle and pistol ammunition, as
determined by the commission, shall be required when taking big game
with rifle or pistol, as defined by Section 350 of the department's
mammal hunting regulations, and when taking coyote, within the
department's deer hunting zone A South, but excluding Santa Cruz,
Alameda, Contra Costa, San Mateo, and San Joaquin Counties, areas
west of Highway 101 within Santa Clara County, and areas between
Highway 5 and Highway 99 within Stanislaus, Merced, Madera, Fresno,
Kings, Tulare, and Kern Counties, and within deer hunting zones D7,
D8, D9, D10, D11, and D13.

Still, it probably won't be long before it expands... and A South is already a huge zone.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/deer/cazonemap.html

Californio
12-08-2007, 10:33 AM
I knew this would happen, soon it will be no lead in the entire State, gun control at it finest.

So Parker wins, but ammo is regulated or priced beyond the common man to afford.

LAK Supply
12-08-2007, 10:43 AM
This is a great time to not live in CA. What a ridiculous bunch of BS.

lawnrevenge
12-08-2007, 10:45 AM
Is it just me or do others also wish the the condors were extinct instead of endangered. :mad:

elenius
12-08-2007, 11:13 AM
So are we going to be completely overrun by squirrels and rabbits now?

lawnrevenge
12-08-2007, 11:18 AM
So are we going to be completely overrun by squirrels and rabbits now?

No will just have to use poison or traps:rolleyes:

Oh wait:mad:

Kiba
12-08-2007, 11:22 AM
So Parker wins, but ammo is regulated or priced beyond the common man to afford.

Oddly enough, if you read the whole bill there is a provision for vouchers-- hunters in the "no lead" areas of Zone A can use them to procure no-lead ammo for equivalent cost of lead ammo. However it says "To the extent that funding is available"-- so probably not, it'll probably all be consumed on "adminstrative fees." Ugh.

What's really scary is the non-lead ammo has to be on an "Approved Ammo" list. First we have our handgun safety roster, now we're going to have a "certified non-lead ammo roster." :eek:

(b) By July 1, 2008, the commission shall establish, by
regulation, a public process to certify centerfire rifle and pistol
ammunition as nonlead ammunition, and shall define, by regulation,
nonlead ammunition as including only centerfire rifle and pistol
ammunition in which there is no lead content. The commission shall
establish and annually update a list of certified centerfire rifle
and pistol ammunition.

I wonder if that will be just factory complete loads or bullets only for us reloader-types?

What another bureaucratic nightmare.

lawnrevenge
12-08-2007, 11:25 AM
I think I'm expanding my monster job search to out of state.

DrjonesUSA
12-08-2007, 11:29 AM
Is it just me or do others also wish the the condors were extinct instead of endangered. :mad:


I was thinking the exact same thing as I read the article this morning in my local communist rag.

Solidsnake87
12-08-2007, 11:47 AM
Anybody want to give the rest of the condors some lead poisoning?

Hunter
12-08-2007, 11:48 AM
I'll wait to see this in writing as the Commission can set policys for the Fish and Game to follow and when it come to regulations changes, it must hold public meetings for input. Even then their general regulation duties are to set bag limits, seasons and method of take when it comes to regulations. So actually changing a statute of the Fish and Game Code, in this case from banning lead centerfire rifle and pistol ammunition to now include leaded rimfire and pellet ammo (as the article makes one believe) is not possible by their vote only. If is was, why did we have the AB821 to start with.

http://www.fgc.ca.gov/html/overview.pdf

DrjonesUSA
12-08-2007, 11:54 AM
Just a friendly reminder that the DOJ/BOF regularly monitors and posts here, so be careful what you say.

AJAX22
12-08-2007, 1:08 PM
Is there any way to get the actual GPS coordinates from the condor tracking monitors?

I think the information should be made available to hunters so they can be sure to avoid hunting around the condors nexting areas.

CitaDeL
12-08-2007, 1:45 PM
Anybody want to give the rest of the condors some lead poisoning?



Do you really believe that if there were no more condors left (ie: completely extinct), that they would lift the lead ammo ban?

glockman19
12-08-2007, 1:48 PM
Do you really believe that if there were no more condors left (ie: completely extinct), that they would lift the lead ammo ban?

of course not. This is not meant to save condors' as much as it is another backdoor gun ban.

Let's see Who makes non-lead bullets? NO ONE.

glockman19
12-08-2007, 1:53 PM
What would be a good material othre than lead for bullets?

adamsreeftank
12-08-2007, 2:12 PM
What would be a good material othre than lead for bullets?

Depleted Uranium...

bwiese
12-08-2007, 2:29 PM
Relax.
Let's not go off half-cocked (so to speak) about these regs and 821.

Many areas are not condor habitat, and many people who shoot aren't hunters :)

Fjold
12-08-2007, 2:38 PM
of course not. This is not meant to save condors' as much as it is another backdoor gun ban.

Let's see Who makes non-lead bullets? NO ONE.


Barnes makes .224 and .243 lead free bullets:

Barnes Bullets ® is introducing the Varmint Grenade™, an all-new lead-free varmint bullet that delivers explosive results. Originally developed for military applications, the bullet’s copper-tin composite core is highly frangible, greatly reducing the chance of ricochets. The new flat-base, hollow-cavity bullet remains intact at ultra-high velocities, yet fragments explosively on impact. Virtually vaporizes ground squirrels and prairie dogs, even at extended range. The bullet blows up completely at high speed, creating little or no exit wound on larger animals. Leaves coyote and bobcat pelts virtually undamaged. Delivers sniper-like accuracy for dependable long-range kills.

glockman19
12-08-2007, 2:48 PM
Today the population of California condors has grown to more than 275. Of those, about 125 live in the wild at Big Sur, Pinnacles, Ventura County and the Grand Canyon, with a few in Baja California, Mexico. The rest live in captivity at the Los Angeles Zoo, San Diego Wild Animal Park and other facilities.

So We're going to create a law and enforce it for 125 birds in the wild?

Wild condors inhabit large territories, often traveling 250 kilometers (150 mi) a day in search of carrion.[25] In the early days of its existence as a species, it is thought that the California Condor lived off of the carcasses of the "megafauna", which are now extinct in North America. They still prefer to feast on large, terrestrial mammalian carcasses such as deer, goats, sheep, donkey, horse, pigs, mountain lions, bears, or cattle. Alternatively, they may feed on the bodies of smaller mammals, such as rabbits or coyotes, aquatic mammals, such as whales and sea lions, or salmon. Bird and reptile carcasses are rarely eaten. Since they do not have a sense of smell,[26] they spot these corpses by looking for other scavengers, like smaller vultures and eagles, who cannot rip through the tougher hides of these larger animals with the efficiency of the larger condor. They can usually intimidate other scavengers away from the carcass, with the exception of bears, which will ignore them, and Golden Eagles, which will fight a condor over a kill or a carcass.[14] In the wild they are intermittent eaters, often going for between a few days to two weeks without eating,[25] then gorging themselves on 1–1.5 kilograms (2–3 lb) of meat at once, sometimes to the point of being unable to lift themselves off the ground.[27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Condor

I don't know about you but when I'm hunting, Bullet recovery is important. I want to judge the distance of the shot taken to the bullet's depth & expansion. perhaps I need a 180 grain for that shot instead of a 150 or 165 grain. And When I field dress my animal I normally dispose of the inerds by digging a hole and covering like I was taught to.
So...If I'm recovering my bullet where is the condor getting lead from?

and also...what other metal acts as a similar projectileif historically this is what they are made of?


Quote:
Lead (pronounced /ˈlɛd/) is a chemical element in the periodic table that has the symbol Pb (Latin: plumbum) and atomic number 82. A soft, heavy, toxic and malleable poor metal, lead is bluish white when freshly cut, but tarnishes to dull gray when exposed to air. Lead is used in building construction, lead-acid batteries, bullets and shot, weights for model railroad cars, and is part of solder, pewter, and fusible alloys. Lead has the highest atomic number of all stable elements, although the next element, bismuth, has a half life so long (longer than the estimated age of the universe) it can be considered stable. Like mercury, another heavy metal, lead is a potent neurotoxin that accumulates in soft tissues and bone over time.

I'd bet lead from bullets is a microfraction of the lead in the enviornment. Lead used in building construction, lead-acid batteries, weights for model railroad cars, and is part of solder, pewter, and fusible alloys is a more likely cause of lead poisioning. Should we banned them all?

glockman19
12-08-2007, 3:00 PM
Fjold,
Barnes makes .224 and .243 lead free bullets:
Great but I hunt with .223, 308 & 30-06, .44mag. Until they have ammunition available I can't hunt. I'm not reloading yet. Perhaps lead slugs from shotguns iare exempt?:rolleyes:

bwiese,
Many areas are not condor habitat, and many people who shoot aren't hunters
Condor Habitat::eek:
Distribution and habitat

California Oak savanna on the east flank of Sonoma MountainFive hundred years ago, the California Condor roamed across the American Southwest. However, due to their decline in numbers, the last wild bird was taken into captivity for the breeding program in 1987. Recently, captive-bred condors have been released in southern California, Baja California, and at the Grand Canyon.[1] There are two sanctuaries dedicated to this bird, the Sisquoc Condor Sanctuary in the San Rafael Wilderness[19] and the Sespe Condor Sanctuary in the Los Padres National Forest. These areas were chosen because of their prime condor nesting habitat.

The condors live in rocky scrubland, coniferous forests, and oak savannas.[20] They are often found near cliffs or large trees, which they use as nesting sites. Individual birds have a huge range and have been known to travel up to 250 kilometers (150 mi) in search of carrion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Condor

It's a large enough area from northern CA to The grand Canyon and south through Baja. It's just a matter of time.

bwiese
12-08-2007, 3:01 PM
Glockman,
You are correct.

Unfortunately you and other Californians were screwed over by the idiocy of GOC/Sam Parades.

It will be up to enterprising Calgunners and NRA West Coast staff to recognize the appropriate legal bounds of AB821 and supporting regulations and see that they don't go overboard.

This week I'll (and I'll bet hoffmang will too) be looking at regs & 821.

RRangel
12-08-2007, 3:03 PM
From very few condors to near 300 today. It looks like they're doing fine. Why is it that today a ban on ammunition can be justified with even less hunting in the same areas than all the previous decades when there was only a handful in the wild? They made such a recovery without it.

This ban sounds like environmental hype. Maybe with fewer people concerned about hunting something like this is more easily implemented.

glockman19
12-08-2007, 3:10 PM
Unfortunately you and other Californians were screwed over by the idiocy of GOC/Sam Parades.

I know...It hurts...:90:

Nahuatl
12-08-2007, 3:14 PM
The final regulatory language is not posted yet at the F&G Commission website. The Assembly bill included centerfire rifles and pistols used by hunters pursuing big game and coyotes. The Commission has apparently expanded the definitions to include all lead "projectiles" in all firearms including shotguns, birdshot, sabots, buckshot, slugs, muzzleloaders and rimfires, and all non-game including crows, starlings, and bobcats.

I'm waiting for the final language to see how they parse "resident small game" which includes not only cottontails, jacks, and squirrels, but also doves, quail, chukar, partridge, grouse, pheasant, and turkeys. That's bound to get even messier.

The Commission's ruling as it is now goes way beyond the legislature's intent and the final language is bound to be even worse.

scrat
12-08-2007, 3:17 PM
so let me get this straight. You can not legally use centerfire and rim fire lead ammo when hunting.

Ok then i guess i will be shooting my blackpowder rifle.

Solidmch
12-08-2007, 3:30 PM
From today's LA Times.

All this for a crappy little buzzard that gets more lead from the air than it does from my .22 bullet that it will never eat.

sobiloff
12-08-2007, 3:32 PM
Ok then i guess i will be shooting my blackpowder rifle.

From the article: "The owners of antique guns and hunters who make their own ammunition must also carry non-leaded bullets or pellets when they are in condor habitat, an area that encompasses most of California's central coast. Ammunition will be considered lead-free if it contains less than 1 percent lead."

Guess you're still restricted. :(

halifax
12-08-2007, 5:36 PM
Another Link (http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20071208/NEWS/712080422)

Commission president Richard Rogers said the panel needed concrete evidence before it could act. That came this summer when a team of scientists from the UC Santa Cruz linked the lead in condors' blood to that in lead bullets.

I'd like to know how this was done.

Didn't that FBI criminologist that claimed he could trace lead in bullets to the actual box of cartridges they came from get totally slammed for bunk science? He'd been doing it for more than 20 years :mad:

If the UCSC study is even remotely based on the same bunk science it should be brought to light.

bohoki
12-08-2007, 5:38 PM
so its only against the rules to hunt with lead containing bullets

its ok to target shoot right? its not like the birds are going out of ther way to peck lead bullets off the dirt

Salty
12-08-2007, 5:48 PM
So how about the lead in the water from all of the electronic crap with lead solder in it that we throw away each year? probably does more lead related damage to the environment than bullets ever will. How do we know that the Condors aren't ingesting lead from their water supply.

Salty
12-08-2007, 5:54 PM
And to think, all this for an ugly *** glorified vulture that is apparently dumb enough to eat chunks of lead and feast on diseased carcasses.
They were by the way, going extinct on their own before humans had anything to do with it. Maybe we should just stop interfering and let natural selection do it's job.

Hunter
12-08-2007, 6:37 PM
From the article: ".... Ammunition will be considered lead-free if it contains less than 1 percent lead."


This is interesting as the actual law states "lead free". Meaning not less than 1 percent or even 1 PPM...it means zero!

This is why some folks were trying to get the AB812 amended, to spell out a minimum threashold of lead, before it passed....but it wasn't done. Even Barnes states that their "lead free" copper bullets actually contain traces of lead in them and are not 100% lead free.

tankerman
12-08-2007, 6:52 PM
Barnes makes .224 and .243 lead free bullets:

Barnes Bullets ® is introducing the Varmint Grenade™, an all-new lead-free varmint bullet that delivers explosive results. Originally developed for military applications, the bullet’s copper-tin composite core is highly frangible, greatly reducing the chance of ricochets. The new flat-base, hollow-cavity bullet remains intact at ultra-high velocities, yet fragments explosively on impact. Virtually vaporizes ground squirrels and prairie dogs, even at extended range. The bullet blows up completely at high speed, creating little or no exit wound on larger animals. Leaves coyote and bobcat pelts virtually undamaged. Delivers sniper-like accuracy for dependable long-range kills.
Are they on the "Approved list"?

Next they will say the frangible bullets are being ingested and doing damage to the bird's digestive tract.

This is nothing more than a an attempt to reduce the amount of hunters and peck away at gun owners

CSACANNONEER
12-09-2007, 9:14 AM
Would this make hangun hunting with solid copper bullits illegal?

I believe all (except lead) monolithic handgun bullets are considered AP rounds by Ca law and are a felony to have!

AKman
12-09-2007, 9:27 AM
According to the local paper, simple possession of lead ammo while hunting will also be banned.

Also, copper is toxic, so I would expect an expansion of these ammo bans.

Ford8N
12-09-2007, 10:26 AM
In 2007, according to Cal F&G ten year statistics, only 253,311 hunting licenses were sold. The lowest amount in the last ten years. I would guess that that will go even lower now that zone A cannot use lead bullets. EVEN .22 RIMFIRE!

The pot temp gets cranked up a little more for the frogs...:eek:

bulgron
12-09-2007, 11:30 AM
Just out of curiosity, where does the State Fish & Game commission get it's funding? Isn't it at least partially paid for out of hunting licenses?

When no one bothers to hunt in CA anyway, won't the State Fish & Game commission be 50% out of business -- until the tree huggers can figure out a way to ban fishing too?

It sure seems to me that they're cutting their own throat. Who needs a Fish & Game commission, anyway, if no one's hunting.

chris
12-09-2007, 11:31 AM
Just a friendly reminder that the DOJ/BOF regularly monitors and posts here, so be careful what you say.

I don't give a rats backside if they look here.

As for the condor I can't wait for it to be extinct. The bird is on it's way out anyway. There will still be people who will use lead and will never get caught. There are so few gmae wardens in the firls how often do you see one.

During duck season I hardly see one a very seldom get checked at all. That does not mean that they are not here. If you are deer hunting or whatever and out walking around what the chances a game warden is gonne be there.

But as for the GOC and CRPA thanks for nothing you morons we had this beat and you guys screwed us all in the end!!!!:mad:

chris
12-09-2007, 11:44 AM
Glockman,
You are correct.

Unfortunately you and other Californians were screwed over by the idiocy of GOC/Sam Parades.

It will be up to enterprising Calgunners and NRA West Coast staff to recognize the appropriate legal bounds of AB821 and supporting regulations and see that they don't go overboard.

This week I'll (and I'll bet hoffmang will too) be looking at regs & 821.


Good Idea Bill and Hoffmag keep us updated it's time for Californians who want change do it for ourselves. Thumbs up on the idea.

DougH9
12-09-2007, 12:26 PM
"its ok to target shoot right? its not like the birds are going out of ther way to peck lead bullets off the dirt"


Not for long. The driving force behind this law cares nothing of hunters or birds.

1911man
12-09-2007, 3:43 PM
From what I had read in a news article about last spring that the tracking signals in the condors where all grouped together in a circling motion near King city. When they arrived where the condors where circling a rancher had just shot a bnunch of squirrels and left them out their.
Then another story that I just heard about was that last year condor trackers found a dead condor and tested the blood and found that is had a high lead content, but what they also found was glass, AA batteries, and peices of aluminum cans.If this true, these dumb bird are pretty much doomed anyway. I shoot squirrles down in Los Padres near king city on weekends, I benefit then hotels owners, resturants, and help control the spread of diseases to other animals. If what I read was right their is a banned on squirrel shooting in that area with lead. Right? I see that 22 rimfire go right through the squirrels. It just does not make any sense!

M. Sage
12-09-2007, 4:19 PM
Do you suppose LEO's including DFG wardens can use lead in the affected areas? There clearly can't be a double standard now could there. Non tox loads will be the norm in 10 yrs I would bet. Waterfowl loads are 100% non tox and have been for almost 20yrs.. Cost will come down if it's the norm. I don't support the law but there are work arounds usually after someone bends you over.

...there's no such thing as "non-toxic." You've got to make the shot out of something, and that something is going to be some kind of metal. Metal is going to be toxic at some level or another.

Cav: Relax. We're here to help.

AJAX22
12-09-2007, 4:26 PM
If I start using silver bullets for reloading would it run afoul of any of the armour piercing bullet laws?

How are pistol hunters supposed to hunt if AP ammo in CA is any non lead ammunition.

Kestryll
12-09-2007, 5:59 PM
This thread has had the baiting and trolling removed, these are not allowed on this forum. This is a serious issue and warrants serious discussion not trolling for arguments.

We now return you to your thread already in progress

CSACANNONEER
12-09-2007, 6:25 PM
so let me get this straight. You can not legally use centerfire and rim fire lead ammo when hunting.

Ok then i guess i will be shooting my blackpowder rifle.

Well, I'll try this again. When I asked scrat what he was casting his bullets out of, I was not baiting or trolling. I truely wanted to know if he had found an alternative to lead for casting muzzleloading bullets. Has anyone found a suitable substitute? Could we use our lead casting equipment to cast heavy shot or bismuth roundballs?

bohoki
12-09-2007, 7:47 PM
Well, I'll try this again. When I asked scrat what he was casting his bullets out of, I was not baiting or trolling. I truely wanted to know if he had found an alternative to lead for casting muzzleloading bullets. Has anyone found a suitable substitute? Could we use our lead casting equipment to cast heavy shot or bismuth roundballs?

plumbing solder

CSACANNONEER
12-09-2007, 7:59 PM
plumbing solder

Geat idea. Have you tried it? Do you know the weight differences off the top of your head?

If I used non lead solder to cast bullets (maybe even centerfire bullets) how can DFG tell that there's no lead in them? Will they end up taking them in for testing and ruining my day's hunt? I'm sure that no one can answer these questions yet but, they need to be addressed.

Hunter
12-09-2007, 8:36 PM
.... how can DFG tell that there's no lead in them? Will they end up taking them in for testing and ruining my day's hunt? I'm sure that no one can answer these questions yet but, they need to be addressed.

One has to wonder if the Wardens will be issued lead testers. Kind of like the hand held ones used for testing the plastics on toys?

Californio
12-10-2007, 7:05 AM
The CF&G can't get all its funding from licenses. They have a fleet of 5 or 6 54' Catamarans, new since 2001?, and 2 65' long range patrol boats, the cost of those boats and the yearly expenses to run the fleet, would surely consume the entire budget just to maintain and fuel the fleet.

The catamarans are very good looking, sea going vessels, would not mind one myself.

Hunter
12-10-2007, 8:49 AM
The CF&G can't get all its funding from licenses. They have a fleet of 5 or 6 54' Catamarans, new since 2001?, and 2 65' long range patrol boats, the cost of those boats and the yearly expenses to run the fleet, would surely consume the entire budget just to maintain and fuel the fleet.

The catamarans are very good looking, sea going vessels, would not mind one myself.


A lot of the funding for the marine unit of the CDFG comes from the commerical fisheries fees, licenses, ect.. vs just the normal sportsman fishing licenses (of which there is about 2.5 million issued).

I do agree with you on the boats....very nice million dollar units.

http://i3.tinypic.com/8a4xklf.jpg

Nahuatl
12-10-2007, 3:01 PM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e230/Coyotl/CondorMortality2.jpg

Californio
12-10-2007, 3:12 PM
A lot of the funding for the marine unit of the CDFG comes from the commerical fisheries fees, licenses, ect.. vs just the normal sportsman fishing licenses (of which there is about 2.5 million issued).

I do agree with you on the boats....very nice million dollar units.

http://i3.tinypic.com/8a4xklf.jpg

Hunter,

That hull is sweet, I have only seen them hanging on a can, I would like to see one on the foil at 26kts.:D

My coastal boat is a 21' catamaran RIB with a foil system, it fly's and get 5 ktm to the gallon while doing it.

Of the 2.5 million fishing licenses issued, any idea of the number of Ocean Enhancement Stamps sold?

Hunter
12-10-2007, 4:00 PM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e230/Coyotl/CondorMortality2.jpg

So 3 out of 15 die from lead in CA and 11 of the 15 killed by lead are in AZ and yet it is CA hunters that have to suffer!

Note also in CA that 10 die from powerlines vs 1 in AZ. Maybe we need to push to take down those powerlines!

bohoki
12-10-2007, 4:50 PM
So 3 out of 15 die from lead in CA and 11 of the 15 killed by lead are in AZ and yet it is CA hunters that have to suffer!

Note also in CA that 10 die from powerlines vs 1 in AZ. Maybe we need to push to take down those powerlines!

i notice the number of starving ones is greater than the lead poisoned (could there be a link?) maybe if they drop more butchered carcases in the area they wont eat the bullet riddled

Smokeybehr
12-10-2007, 5:50 PM
So 3 out of 15 die from lead in CA and 11 of the 15 killed by lead are in AZ and yet it is CA hunters that have to suffer!

Note also in CA that 10 die from powerlines vs 1 in AZ. Maybe we need to push to take down those powerlines!

Look closely at the footnotes. Eight out of the 12 "lead poisoning" deaths are "suspected but not confirmed". There's your bulls**t right there.

Nahuatl
12-11-2007, 6:03 AM
Read the chart closely and pay attention to the footnotes. The "Smoking Gun" is ONE dead condor in California confirmed to have died of lead poisoning. I've read the scientific review many times - the authors had an obvious political agenda - which is a blatant violation of scientific principles. Their data was instantly suspect, but no one in authority had the intelligence or the attention span to wade through the crap and get to the truth.

Oooooooo. look at the purty boat! vrum vrum vrum!

Church ME, Gwiazda R, Risebrough RW, Sorenson K, Chamberlain CP, Farry S,
Heinrich W, Rideout BA, Smith DR. 2006. Ammunition is the principal source of
lead accumulated by California condors re-introduced to the wild. Environ Sci
Technol. 40(19):6143-50.

Molly Church wants to save the world. Here are the two people who somehow propelled one dead condor into the lead ban.

"Past efforts to ban lead ammunition in California have been stymied by opposition from hunting groups. But this year the situation is very different. As a direct result of a scientific study led by UCSC graduate student Molly Church, the California Department of Fish and Game recommended a ban on the use of lead bullets throughout the range of the California condor. Legislation to enact such a ban is now moving through the state legislature.

"Church, who earned a master’s degree in environmental toxicology in 2004 and is now at the University of Pennsylvania’s School of Veterinary Medicine, was able to match the lead in blood samples from condors to the lead in ammunition obtained from a variety of sources throughout central California. She used a proven “fingerprinting” technique based on the unique isotope ratios found in different sources of lead.

"Donald Smith, professor and chair of environmental toxicology, was Church’s adviser and a coauthor of the scientific paper reporting her findings. He has testified at several hearings in Sacramento before State Senate and Assembly committees considering the bill to ban lead ammunition.

http://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/img/2007/09/church_molly.250.jpg

Nahuatl
12-11-2007, 6:33 AM
Abstract:

The endangered California Condor (Gymnogyps californianus) was reduced to a total population of 22 birds by the end of 1982. Their captive-bred descendants are now being released back into the wild in California, Arizona, and Baja California, where monitoring indicates they may accumulate lead to toxic levels. Fragments of ammunition in the carcasses of game animals such as deer, elk, and feral pigs not retrieved by hunters or in gut piles left in the field have been considered a plausible source of the lead, though little direct evidence is available to support this hypothesis. Here, we measured lead concentrations and isotope ratios in blood from 18 condors living in the wild in central California, in 8 pre-release birds, and in diet and ammunition samples to determine the importance of ammunition as a source of exposure. Blood lead levels in pre-release condors were low (average 27.7 ng/mL, SD 4.9 ng/mL) and isotopically similar to dietary and background environmental lead in California.

A two-endmember mixing model defined by the background 207Pb/206Pb ratio of representative condor diet samples (0.8346) and the upper 207Pb/206Pb ratio of the ammunition samples (0.8184) was able to account for the blood lead isotopic compositions in 20 out of the 26 live condors sampled in this study (i.e., 77%). Finally, lead in tissues and in a serially sampled growing feather recovered post-mortem from a lead-poisoned condor in Arizona evidence acute exposure from an isotopically distinct lead source. Together, these data indicate that incidental ingestion of ammunition in carcasses of animals killed by hunters is the principal source of elevated lead exposure that threatens the recovery in the wild of this endangered species.


Focus.

"In contrast, blood lead levels in free-flying condors were substantially higher (average 246 ng/mL, SD 229 ng/mL) with lead isotopic compositions that approached or matched those of the lead ammunition."

The standard deviation is almost equal to the average.

lawnrevenge
12-11-2007, 6:49 AM
Well, my question is what other sources of lead would be available for the condors and are they the same isotopic composition?

IIRC from my chemistry classes, the ratio is almost always around .80-.85 because of the nature of lead. We need a lead fishing weight ban as well as a lead zepplin ban just to be safe.

Nahuatl
12-11-2007, 7:08 AM
I'm sitting here reading Ms. Church's Master's Thesis.

A condor necropsy by the SD Zoo Society found 16-17 pellets in a dead condor's gizzard, but the pellets were misplaced and were unavailable for analysis. This is good science?

If there were a smoking gun, it was the comparison of the isotope ratios of the pellets from the condor's gizzard and the lead in its blood. BUT THESE MORONS CLAIM TO HAVE MISPLACED THE LEAD PELLETS. Where are those pellets?

I used to identify offending ships who had pumped their bilges in Santa Monica Bay by analyzing and comparing the Nickel/Vanadium ratio in the tarballs from the beach. We need the ratios to be within .005 for proof. Their lead ratios don't rise anywhere near this level of comparison without mathematical massage. More later.

As a scientist I take nothing at face value and only let the data speak. If Ms. Church has a political agenda or her advisor has a pre-conceived conclusion in mind before the analysis, then they are making a mistake.

Is it possible spiked samples were confused with analytical samples? Of course. Matrix samples, blanks, spikes, and standards are sitting around every laboratory and without a thorough examination of the lab and its procedures it's impossible to determine whether the analyses were accurate.

The half-life for lead in blood is reported to be less than 14 days. Yet no one has correlated any seasonal variation in lead levels. Hunting season = elevated lead levels. But the guys doing the chemistry have a political agenda - so they probably toss any data that doesn't agree with goal.

Californio
12-11-2007, 7:22 AM
Politics does not require logic, reason or scientific method, just the smoke screen of emotion to pass idiotic laws. Identify something as evil and it becomes evil.

Nahuatl
12-11-2007, 8:04 AM
Her whole study is based on one box each Winchester and Remington .270. .30-'06, .30-30, some donated Win. and Rem. shells in the same calibers and some donated .280 (same brands). Two boxes of Remington shotgun shells and one box of Winchesters (no shot sizes or styles given). This is a very incomplete data set.

The numbers for most of her isotopic composition data do not add up. In the end, they had to use a "mixing model" to explain why the blood isotopes don't match up to the ammo, and even then could only include 77% of her samples. The rest of the data lay outside even this bizarre math.

If you start at a very low lead level - and all the added lead is from ammo - the isotopic ratios should almost match those in ammo perfectly - and they do not.

I agree that the lead has to come from somewhere and ammo is a likely culprit. But this piece of scientific speculation did not prove it in any way.

I'm voting for pre-supposition of results by her faculty advisor. "This is the conclusion regardless of the data. Use my conclusion, or you do not graduate."

xrMike
12-11-2007, 8:25 AM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e230/Coyotl/CondorMortality2.jpgEdit: Answer to my question was posted on page 7. Thanks Nahuatl, great info!

Damn that woman is ugly -- glue some feathers on her and she'd look kinda like a condor!

RRangel
12-16-2007, 10:34 AM
Remember they started with 22 captive condors.

Look at the success with the recent condor numbers. It would appear to be another overzealous law. When the condors become more numerous will the legislature repeal it?

More recently there has been less hunting and you can deduce that by observing declining license buyers. So with presumably more hunters and lead ammunition over the last two decades the condors were able to make a great recovery, yet our leftist rule makers enact a lead ban. That's more than likely because it seems that their favorite thing to do is enact bans, especially when it has to do with gun owners.