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View Full Version : Value of truing and blueprinting actions


wildcard
11-28-2007, 3:36 PM
Alright.. there's plenty of hype regarding truing actions and blueprinting.. but I have to ask if it is for accuracy or just a smoother running action? Yes.. I understand what is physically done.. but what is the value of it?

This weekend, I will argue that simply bedding a factory action and recrowning the factory barrel can CONSISTENTLY make a factory 700P shoot .5 MOA groupings center to center at 100 yds.

Would it be fair to say that 2 5-shot groupings on the same sheet of paper will be a sufficient to prove my point on a initial informal basis? I'll do more groupings another day since I don't have that many rounds loaded up. Actually.. I'll do a third grouping to see how well the 168 gr. Nosler Custom Competition bullets does compared to the SMK. Hope there's no wind.. anyone want to join me out at Burro?

I'll of course post my results regarless of if I confirm of reject my hypothesis.

PistolPete75
11-28-2007, 3:48 PM
there is a problem with your testing. the issue is that it should be done over several groups within a limited amount of time. meaning, the barrel should be shot hot and not when it's just cold.

that is why if i ever get the opportunity in the future, i want to videotape my findings. i want to use my custom r+d rifle and nayt's rifle which is almost the same to mine expect the twist rate is 1:10 while mine is 1:11. but almost identical.

then i want to take Joe's build which will probably take a few months, since i now need to order parts and do the exact testing with the same ammo used within the same lot#.

i say at least 50 rounds within 20 minutes should be fired, and all group sizing should be averaged out to determine final grouping size. i expect all three rifles to do a mininum of 1/2moa or i would think there is a quality issue somewhere. this is using high end stocks, barrels, etc. all three rifles should hold 1/2moa as expected by the competition shooters out there.

Jason, if yours can do that, hey why spend all that money on a custom rifle right? let's prove it true or false!

shoot if your rifle can hold 1/2moa all day, all long. why the hell should anyone blueprint their action, buy an expensive barrel, stock, etc when a Stock 700 P with bedding can do the same? i'm sure shooters out there want to know if there dollars are being wasted on just "glamour" products. what work and what doesn't is the question.

wildcard
11-28-2007, 3:59 PM
shoot if your rifle can hold 1/2moa all day, all long. why the hell should anyone blueprint their action, buy an expensive barrel, stock, etc when a Stock 700 P with bedding can do the same? i'm sure shooters out there want to know if there dollars are being wasted on just "glamour" products. what work and what doesn't is the question.

That's exactly what I want to know!

I hear ya.. but like I said, it's just a initial informal finding to prove that it's capable of .5 MOA in the first place.

The next step will be more rounds + more groups - slow fire
Then we can do the same number of rounds + same number of groups - rapid fire.

I will of course want to use a machine rest when doing it on a formal basis.

We'll see what I come up with this weekend while shooting off a bipod and rear "sand sock." I'd go get a rest.. but it's just for fun.

PistolPete75
11-28-2007, 4:00 PM
no worries, when your ready to test your rifle out in a few weeks let me know. i'm having a special contraption being made up to hold down a rifle for testing purposes which will eliminate all shooter skills.

i always root for the underdog! whoot whoot. if your rifle can out do all three, wouldn't that just be the day! gunsmiths out there are going to hate us. i am pretty dam confident though, that r+d and joe's rifle will hold 1/2moa all day long on a hot barrel.

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 4:32 PM
1/2 MOA is all you NEED.
BAH.

1/4 MOA is what you WANT.

If my custom AR barrels won't shoot 1/2 MOA, something is wrong with the shooter or ammo.
I have a bunch of customers that routinely shoot sub 1/2 MOA with autoloaders.
For a bolt gun to be worthwile, it really should show you some 1/4 to 1/3 MOA groups.
Not consistently mind you, but they had better be popping up daily.
Every group from a fixed rest should go 1/2 MOA or better.

Keep in mind that this group is from an autoloader:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/gfx/300wtarget2.jpg

Mute
11-28-2007, 4:37 PM
Take the factory rifle through a strenuous training course like Storm Mountain or fire enough rounds in a short enough time that the barrel would burn to the touch and see how it does. If it can hold those groupings beyond 200 yards then you might have something to talk about.

wildcard
11-28-2007, 4:43 PM
Yet at the same time you've helped somewhat prove my point assuming you're stating facts. If those groups are achievable from a autoloader then certainly it may cast some doubt on the value of trueing and blueprinting. I realize i'm comparing apples to oranges here.. but I'm just using whatever data is available to me until I see some valid empirical proof.

I'm just taking this a step further and trying to achieve .5 MOA accuracy without custom parts such as the barrel.

Peter.. thats another thing to consider in your testing. If you're going with a custom barrel, you may want to test with just the barrel changed before testing with the new barrel + trueing/ blueprinting. This way you'll be controlling for the variable of the barrel.

wildcard
11-28-2007, 4:50 PM
Take the factory rifle through a strenuous training course like Storm Mountain or fire enough rounds in a short enough time that the barrel would burn to the touch and see how it does. If it can hold those groupings beyond 200 yards then you might have something to talk about.

Just trying to figure it out. I'm not saying i'm right or that my factory rifle is a butt kicker.. but i'm willing to put my question to the test! Like any other "scientific study," I need a hypothesis to start off with and am just trying to gather some data as informal as it may be. Besides.. I always hear about people just buying the rifles and stripping it down to customize so I want to see just how well I/ it can shoot without dumping a bankroll on it.

Fjold
11-28-2007, 5:05 PM
Some guns yes, some guns no. There are guns that will never shoot 1/2 MOA no matter what is done with them. There are some factory guns that will shoot 2s and 3s all day long. The amount of work that you put into an action depends on what the initial condition of the action/barrel are.

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 5:12 PM
If you're going with a custom barrel, you may want to test with just the barrel changed before testing with the new barrel + trueing/ blueprinting. This way you'll be controlling for the variable of the barrel.

You can't change the barrel before doing the truing as the barrel would no longer fit into the threads properly.
You could do some of the truing and then re-set the factory barrel, but I doubt you would see much change.
It's the better barrel that makes most of the difference, even without the truing.
The truing is just something you do because it corrects for really FUBAR receivers.
Not ALL receivers are FUBAR, but you can't easily tell if one was or not without actually DOING the truing work.
By the time you have the receiver setup in such a way to as measure if it's FUBAR or not, you might as well just true it and not worry about measurements.

For example, I true have trued the fronts of AR receivers as well.
Those sub 1/2 MOA groups come from premium quality barrels with all sorts of truing done while the barrel is being made.

Here's an example of measuring AR receiver face runout:
http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech/receiver-face-runout.jpg

The runout gets removed in the same setup:
http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech/receiver-facing.jpg

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 5:16 PM
Expounding on barrels...

Most factory bores are not straight.
Now, take a crooked barrel blank and profile it.
What do you get?
Un-even barrel wall thickness.

What happens when steel heats up?
It expands.

What happens when there's more steel on one side of the barrel to heat up?
It expands away from the side with more thickness.

This is why it's important to shoot "hot" groups and more important to see IF (first) a barrel wanders and WHERE (secondly) it wanders and (lastly) HOW MUCH it wanders.
A perfect barrel with a straight bore and even barrel wall thickness is not going to wander nearly as much as a crooked one.

rksimple
11-28-2007, 5:20 PM
Truing the action/boltface will make mating surfaces square. We all know that. This will help to ensure that the bullet is seated squarely in the chamber each time, or concentric to the bore. Another given. This repeatability is whats desired and will make the rifle shoot consistently. The bullet gyrating eccentrically down the bore is something even the best crown can't fix. Trueing will also allow the rifle, as it heats up, to continue to shoot to POI, albeit, the groups may open up. My Savage, as it heats up, will begin to push my POI about 1-1.25 MOA to the right. My guess is the mating surface of the barrel nut is not square to the receiver (or vice versa) or the barrel nut mating surface isn't square to the threads. As it heats up, one side will expand more than the other and, poof, misses abound. FWIW, the barrel is COMPLETELY free floated.

Prc329
11-28-2007, 5:22 PM
My factory remmy barrel as it heats up throws the last round in a 5 shot group to the right about .75 moa.

rksimple
11-28-2007, 5:22 PM
Expounding on barrels...

Most factory bores are not straight.
Now, take a crooked barrel blank and profile it.
What do you get?
Un-even barrel wall thickness.

What happens when steel heats up?
It expands.

What happens when there's more steel on one side of the barrel to heat up?
It expands away from the side with more thickness.

This is why it's important to shoot "hot" groups and more important to see IF (first) a barrel wanders and WHERE (secondly) it wanders and (lastly) HOW MUCH it wanders.
A perfect barrel with a straight bore and even barrel wall thickness is not going to wander nearly as much as a crooked one.

Great post! This is something most don't understand. A quality barrel is one that will do more than shoot .5MOA groups while you let it cool for each string.

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 5:22 PM
I'm just taking this a step further and trying to achieve .5 MOA accuracy without custom parts such as the barrel.

The biggest single improvement you can do to a factory barrel is to cut a good crown on it.

I see this over and over and over in AR's that I work on.
It's not uncommon for a barrel to shoot 30% smaller groups after just a crown job.

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 5:24 PM
My Savage, as it heats up, will begin to push my POI about 1-1.25 MOA to the right. My guess is the mating surface of the barrel nut is not square to the receiver (or vice versa) or the barrel nut mating surface isn't square to the threads. As it heats up, one side will expand more than the other and, poof, misses abound. FWIW, the barrel is COMPLETELY free floated.

Cut the barrel in half.
Measure the wall thickness all the way around.
I see 0.020" or more as COMMON to factory barrels.
If you don't want to cut a barrel in half, come over to my shop.
I have about 100 cut-off barrel stubs and a pair of calipers or even a tubing wall thickness micrometer if you want to knock yourself out measuring them all. :D

Mute
11-28-2007, 5:26 PM
Just trying to figure it out. I'm not saying i'm right or that my factory rifle is a butt kicker.. but i'm willing to put my question to the test! Like any other "scientific study," I need a hypothesis to start off with and am just trying to gather some data as informal as it may be. Besides.. I always hear about people just buying the rifles and stripping it down to customize so I want to see just how well I/ it can shoot without dumping a bankroll on it.

It will definitely be a nice little academic exercise. Time permitting, I'd be glad to contribute to the testing.

rksimple
11-28-2007, 5:26 PM
Cut the barrel in half.
Measure the wall thickness all the way around.
I see 0.020" or more as COMMON to factory barrels.

Most likely. Regardless, the addition of a barrel nut, with mating surface and threads, just introduces more opportunity for deviation from "square."

ETA: Once I get a couple 700 receivers, and my SPR build setup with decent optics, I'm sure I'll be spending plenty of time in your shop.

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 5:28 PM
The addition of a barrel nut, with mating surface and threads, just introduces more opportunity for deviation from "square."

Not so much.
The barrel nut, just like the bolt head, is self centering.
This is partly why Savages shoot well to begin with.

PistolPete75
11-28-2007, 6:12 PM
Take the factory rifle through a strenuous training course like Storm Mountain or fire enough rounds in a short enough time that the barrel would burn to the touch and see how it does. If it can hold those groupings beyond 200 yards then you might have something to talk about.

that is my intended goal. i'm not knocking r+d. his stuff is the best on this side of the coast. shoot, i'm spending almost 3k on my build with Randy. i want to see equal results is what i'm saying. be it 1/4 or whatever moa it turns out to be. R+d will be the benchmark rifle. enough said, right? i know i got lofty goals. how can I compare to r+d? Randy Cain is a godsmith. Yes, I agree. I can dream right? If you don't ever try, you will never succeed in life.

strenuous tests will be done, and yes on a hot barrel. otherwise what's the point, right? just trying to turn a dream into a reality.

don't know why your sooo angry Randall. I have no ill will against you, and I thought we were on the same team. You do ar15s, and Joe does 700s. That is what you said, right? All I want to say Randall is I have no ill will against you. I always look at things with a big picture. I don't let little things get in the way. Nayt's rifle is a perfect candidate for this task. I wish you would join in our project, but that is up to you. It's almost an exact match to my current build. Wouldn't it be nice to participate and get some nice creditability out of this? It's my pocket book that is taking the hit on this project, and i am garanteing all work performed to high quality standards. Don't hate, participate. It can be a AR15barrels/ Bones' Brigade Armory project. The whole point of this project is not to make tons of money. It's just something enjoyable that Joe and I like to do. For a couple of grand, it's worth taking a little risk, right?

Imagine this guys, a high quality custom rifle built within 4 weeks from the time you place the order for less pricing than the competitors. Customer service is key I think. That's always been my business motto. As long as there is a market, there's an opportunity.

Fjold
11-28-2007, 6:37 PM
Not so much.
The barrel nut, just like the bolt head, is self centering.
This is partly why Savages shoot well to begin with.

+1.

I see gunsmiths talk bad about the multi-piece bolt of the Savage until they figure out that a floating bolthead centers itself and makes it shoot more accurately.

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 6:46 PM
I see gunsmiths talk bad about the multi-piece bolt of the Savage until they figure out that a floating bolthead centers itself and makes it shoot more accurately.

Anyone ever notice that AR bolts can also self center to some degree?

wildcard
11-28-2007, 7:08 PM
Thanks for the explanations on truing, guys. Seeing it in layman's terms was sure a lot easier than trying to understand it through the laws of thermal dynamics/ expansion :)

Well.. I'll do my test this weekend and see what happens! I need to put the theory to the test.

Cypriss32
11-28-2007, 8:25 PM
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.

rksimple
11-28-2007, 8:36 PM
Not so much.
The barrel nut, just like the bolt head, is self centering.
This is partly why Savages shoot well to begin with.

The bolt head yes. The barrel nut, not so much. The threads have to be square to the face of the nut. Thats why SSS will true the nut as well on custom work. The face of the nut then has to be square with the receiver, too. Even though its relatively self-centering, you run into the same problem with expansion as you do with a non-centered bore.

The bolt head design rocks as you get quite a bit of lug engagement with it floating.

rksimple
11-28-2007, 8:41 PM
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.

I'm past 5k on my Savage 308. Well into 2k on the 12fv. Most of the contributors to this thread do shoot their rifles quite a bit.

Adam-you buyin' a new SH IOR?

Cypriss32
11-28-2007, 9:04 PM
Im shure some shoot their rifles alot, and some dont. But I wouldnt waiste that much money if I wasnt totaly into shooting. (unless the new girl says im not allowed to go as much, but Shes the first communist ive dated....shes "open" to new things she says)

As soon as the new shipment comes in im hoping to have my name on one. I can use another FFP scope. I got the premier 6.5-20x on my 308 now, and im moving it to my 30-06 next weekend when I pick it up.

My AR has lost total interest with me right now. Im hoping she will like shooting and ill let her use it. That gives me an excuse to get the 338 stiller tac action to build my little baby up. The 338 in AICS 2.0 with 5-25x S&B
300gr SMKS are the choice. Also cant forget about the AR10 in 308, will be my most used rifle ive ever had. Hoping to run out the barrel in 1 year, and run 500+ rounds an month. Prolly throw the IOR SH scope on that. Rock 24" barrel 1-11.25 barrel for 155s Scenars, and 175gr SMKS. And LC brass to a hot 2950 FPS, dont care about case life.

rksimple
11-28-2007, 9:16 PM
And LC brass to a hot 2950 FPS, dont care about case life.


2950 in a gas gun?:eek: Watch out for flying parts! J/k.

Can't wait to see the 338 Stiller. Are you going to get the 5-25 S&B with mil turrets? I'm looking at the DT mil turrets and P4fine reticle, but midway doesn't stock them. Cheapest I've been able to find is 2650. Maybe theres a discount if I buy 2...

Fjold
11-28-2007, 9:33 PM
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.

Need to get out and shoot?

My Savage 110 is on it's third barrel right now after wearing out a 243 and a 22.250 barrel already. The barrel on it now is one is getting replaced after the spring ground squirrel season because it's on it's third season and will be gone also.

I have over 5,000 rounds through a Remington 308, the jump to the lands is over .130" but it will still hold 1 MOA so it hasn't had it's barrel changed yet.

As far as not being able to shoot, when you take a coyote at over 700 yards tell me about it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/AntelopeHunt025.jpg

rksimple
11-28-2007, 9:38 PM
As far as not being able to shoot, when you take a coyote at over 700 yards tell me about it.



I got a squirrel at 550 at 5 dogs...does that count?:D

You shoot there much, Frank?

ar15barrels
11-28-2007, 9:40 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/AntelopeHunt025.jpg

Damn, that dude's ugly. ;)

That's a perfect example of why you don't post pictures of yourself on the internet.
You don't see Nayt and I doing that.
We KNOW that we are ugly as sin.

Timberwolf
11-28-2007, 10:54 PM
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.

1200 and 500 are not high round counts - hell Savannah is pushing 3500 on her present barrel (her 3rd) and my Chandler is a close 2nd with 2650. Damnest thing is I still can't shoot worth .02 cents. But . . . I can "point and click" pretty good. ;)

ocabj
11-28-2007, 11:31 PM
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.

If we're pulling out the tape measures...

1966 rounds in my competition AR (Service Rifle) from October 2006 to present.
4000+ rounds in my practice AR from February 2007 to October 2007 (just rebarrelled, 66 rounds in new barrel).

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 6:51 AM
Not high? I had the rem for under 7 months, and the savage for around 2 months. We will see how the coming months are, if i move out with some friends, and next semesters 18 units, I hope to still shoot. But partys are the upmost priority right now. Hell i might even meet a better girl that i can marry. This weekend im gona test some scenars out of my rifle. Any OAL to work from, same say in lands, some say mag lengh (for you S/A guys)

rksimple
11-29-2007, 7:16 AM
Not high? I had the rem for under 7 months, and the savage for around 2 months. We will see how the coming months are, if i move out with some friends, and next semesters 18 units, I hope to still shoot. But partys are the upmost priority right now. Hell i might even meet a better girl that i can marry. This weekend im gona test some scenars out of my rifle. Any OAL to work from, same say in lands, some say mag lengh (for you S/A guys)


The scenars have been good to me at an OAL of 2.830. It has a pretty good jump at that OAL and still shoots great. I wouldn't jam them.

Fjold
11-29-2007, 7:18 AM
I got a squirrel at 550 at 5 dogs...does that count?:D

You shoot there much, Frank?

I like shooting the little buggers running around on the 500 meter line but I haven't been there in the last year or so. I like their benches for load development but a rancher here lets me shoot on his place and it a lot closer to town.



Randall,

I know I'm ugly but at least I'm a good shot!

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 8:24 AM
You computer comandos need to get your *** out and shoot your rifles. What use is spending 3k on a rifle and 2k on a scope when you cant shoot it worth 2 cents? I have my high round count factory rifles:
Rem700 ive put 1200 rounds threw in its time
Savage im up to 500 as it is.

i would most guys here are not keyboard commandos, but shooters. hell, i put about 300-400 rounds of .308 down my barrel a month.

wildcard
11-29-2007, 9:10 AM
Enough talk.. I couldn't care less if somebody blew 20,000 down their barrels. It boils down to how good you are may it be after you shot 500 or 5K rounds. For all I know, all a person has had access to is a 100 yd range where all they do is benchrest.

I vote that if a person wants to challenge the skill and experience of another, they do it at the range or match :)

Alright cypriss.. I have absolutely no idea how you shoot even with your high round count which must count for something, but i'm always up for a challenege.. anybody want in? I'm always up for some friendly competition!

wildcard
11-29-2007, 9:15 AM
The scenars have been good to me at an OAL of 2.830. It has a pretty good jump at that OAL and still shoots great. I wouldn't jam them.

I liked my SMKs at 2.830.. but if the projectile had that little burr at the end of it adding 0.005, I would experience reliability issues with my mag. Strangely enough 2.815 seems to be a sweet spot for me.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:24 AM
I liked my SMKs at 2.830.. but if the projectile had that little burr at the end of it adding 0.005, I would experience reliability issues with my mag. Strangely enough 2.815 seems to be a sweet spot for me.

i keep my 168s at 2.800 oal. but my scenars in my new rifle is going to be 2.830 as recommended by Randy.

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 9:29 AM
Ok, so I have a box of 155 scenars, winchester large rifle primers, FGMM or LC brass and an 8lb jug of Varget.
I don't have load data for the scenars. :(
How much varget do I want to be running under a 155 Scenar at about 1.81" to 1.82" OAL?

26" barrel and FGMM brass so I don't need to push it quite as hard as some of you primer-pocket-eaters. :D
What's the "charge range" I want to be in?

Timberwolf
11-29-2007, 9:32 AM
Alright cypriss.. I have absolutely no idea how you shoot even with your high round count which must count for something, but i'm always up for a challenege.. anybody want in? I'm always up for some friendly competition!

I'm in . . . ;)

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:35 AM
I'm in . . . ;)


i'm in! might be the last time before my 700 p get revamped. last place buys lunch for everyone! how does that sound?

wildcard
11-29-2007, 9:43 AM
How much varget do I want to be running under a 155 Scenar at about 1.81" to 1.82" OAL?


Wow.. that's a real short cartridge.. you must have some super custom chamber! Is it the 308 Winchester Ultra Short? :)

wildcard
11-29-2007, 9:44 AM
i'm in! might be the last time before my 700 p get revamped. last place buys lunch for everyone! how does that sound?

Sounds like a plan :)

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:53 AM
Wow.. that's a real short cartridge.. you must have some super custom chamber! Is it the 308 Winchester Ultra Short? :)


it's the new wildcat cartridge.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 10:02 AM
Ok, so I have a box of 155 scenars, winchester large rifle primers, FGMM or LC brass and an 8lb jug of Varget.
I don't have load data for the scenars. :(
How much varget do I want to be running under a 155 Scenar at about 1.81" to 1.82" OAL?

26" barrel and FGMM brass so I don't need to push it quite as hard as some of you primer-pocket-eaters. :D
What's the "charge range" I want to be in?

I'd start with around 44gr and chrono them. I'm at 44.8 with RA60 (military) brass and it shoots pretty well at 2830 fps.

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 10:58 AM
Wow.. that's a real short cartridge.. you must have some super custom chamber! Is it the 308 Winchester Ultra Short? :)

Ever notice how the #1 and the #2 are right next to each other on the keyboard? :rolleyes:

I'm actually shooting the 30 BR.
Didn't you get the memo?

:rofl2:

Just neck up one of these:
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd7benchrestremington.jpg

Prc329
11-29-2007, 11:59 AM
I'm pushing my scenars at 2900 using 45.5 of RL15 in win brass with BR2 primers.

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 1:24 PM
Anyone else up to the callenge? Im shure you will all get your chances to take me on at one point. Timberwolf no cheating again.

Nobody laid down terms for this compition? i dont think im the greatest shooter ever on earth, personally i have room for improvment. We shall see, set the terms place and time.

Prc329
11-29-2007, 1:29 PM
When?

Cold bore shot at the buffalo?

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 1:33 PM
Ohhh ya I forget to add one thing, if you think im attacking anyone on the internet think again........... Im just bringing up some points, Not everyone can handle that I guess.

Timberwolf
11-29-2007, 1:38 PM
Anyone else up to the callenge? Im shure you will all get your chances to take me on at one point. Timberwolf no cheating again.

Nobody laid down terms for this compition? i dont think im the greatest shooter ever on earth, personally i have room for improvment. We shall see, set the terms place and time.

I suggest either Dec 15 or 16 - APS - between 0700 and 0730 (pray no fog) - three shots @ buff @ 865 from prone - and Cypriss no pressure hehehehehe

Prc329
11-29-2007, 1:42 PM
I suggest either Dec 15 or 16 - APS - between 0700 and 0730 (pray no fog) - three shots @ buff @ 865 from prone - and Cypriss no pressure hehehehehe

I'd be down for that one. Gotta repaint my rifle this weekend but I would join you guys for that one.

Timberwolf
11-29-2007, 1:46 PM
I'm on that weekend - so I'll just need to know which day so I can arrange to open early, etc etc. Hell might even convince Bob to paint the buff for us the evening before.

wildcard
11-29-2007, 2:05 PM
Ohhh ya I forget to add one thing, if you think im attacking anyone on the internet think again........... Im just bringing up some points, Not everyone can handle that I guess.

haha. no worries.. you just provided a good excuse to initiate a friendly competition. "Computer Commandos" vs. High Round Counters

Looks like Timberwolf may be willing to take point on setting the parameters. I'm down for anything. And i'll be siding with the Computer Commandos :)

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 2:28 PM
I dunno guys, my birthday is dec13. The girls wana do something that weekend. No offence but id rather be with some good looking girls then shooting my rifle anyday. I hope you all feel the same.
If nothing goes down, you got caliber restrictions?

Anyone know somebody to bed and do some minor stock work with my manners/M70 build?

Prc329
11-29-2007, 2:32 PM
I dunno guys, my birthday is dec13. The girls wana do something that weekend. No offence but id rather be with some good looking girls then shooting my rifle anyday. I hope you all feel the same.
If nothing goes down, you got caliber restrictions?

Anyone know somebody to bed and do some minor stock work with my manners/M70 build?

I'm married.

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 2:35 PM
Im not..........yet.

chickenfried
11-29-2007, 2:39 PM
:rofl2:

wildcard
11-29-2007, 2:49 PM
Hot girls are a dime a dozen.. and they'll still be there when you get back from your morning of shooting. But if y'all got morning plans already.. then you just bought yourself more time to practice :) I'm still up for a fun shoot though!

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 2:51 PM
Marriage is a funny thing.
We spend our lives trying to be around women.
Then we get married and spend our lives trying to get away from women.

Why do you think so many people have hobbies that their wives are not interested in?

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 3:00 PM
Thats why Ive been dating totaly liberal girls.....its kinda wierd.
But it will be a weekend encursion if we do anything. I shall see, if i do it will be a sunday and once again it wont be till 12-2pm before i can arrive. I will be going out for shure the night before, and it WILL be a long night.

Prc329
11-29-2007, 3:01 PM
We spend everyday of the rest of our lives with our wives. We need a break.

wildcard
11-29-2007, 3:04 PM
We spend everyday of the rest of our lives with our wives. We need a break.

I read: Stay single :)

I already got trapped in my girl's web though.. sigh.. at least she shoots and stays out at 1000 yds to check my target for me via radio!

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 3:26 PM
she shoots and stays out at 1000 yds to check my target for me via radio!

Is she smart enough NOT to go shooting with you when you are mad at her?

Our gun club is equipped with shovels in case of fire.
The standing joke is that if a shooter mortally injures himself, the SOP is to dig a hole, bury him, divy up his gear and disavow all knowledge of him ever being at the range that day.

Is the dirt soft behind the 1000 yard targets?

Timberwolf
11-29-2007, 3:31 PM
Lame . . . no worries . . . if its mid day I'll either put the 6" plate up at 400 and it'll be the same best out of three from prone or we'll shoot a 5 shot dot drill at 100 with 3/4" dots - not as fun as the buff at 865 but still enough to seperate the chaff from the wheat. Just remember no pressure . . . :drool5:

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 3:38 PM
Lame? Its my one weekend to do and get what I want!
Im surprissed you can see that far bill..........
The phone range........why hello.........Its my new rifle done. ohh-no!

Timberwolf
11-29-2007, 3:45 PM
Careful jr these old eyes still see far enough to "point and click".

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 3:52 PM
these old eyes still see far enough to "point and click".

Good glass will do that. ;)

Timberwolf
11-29-2007, 3:54 PM
Good glass will do that. ;)

amen to that

Prc329
11-29-2007, 4:30 PM
I read: Stay single :)

I already got trapped in my girl's web though.. sigh.. at least she shoots and stays out at 1000 yds to check my target for me via radio!

I love my wife more then I ever thought possible but sometimes you gotta get out and clear your mind and wife and kids will keep you to occupied. Laying behind my rifle is zen like, even when I'm shooting like ****.

Joe308
11-29-2007, 5:38 PM
i might have to go in this challenge with a .223

my 700p has been taken apart for blueprinting, and a new rock barrel has been ordered! momma, we got another one in the oven!

this is pistolpete75 by the way.

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 5:57 PM
my 700p has been taken apart for blueprinting, and a new rock barrel has been ordered!

Make sure you keep calling Mike Rock.
I have a couple barrel blanks on order with him for over a year now.

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 5:58 PM
this is pistolpete75 by the way.

You should probably login with your own username...

Prc329
11-29-2007, 6:05 PM
He has been shipping my barrel for 2 weeks now.

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 6:49 PM
I heard the same thing from ROCK, it took him 8 months to deliver my 30cal barrel.

wildcard
11-29-2007, 6:49 PM
i might have to go in this challenge with a .223


It'll be just like old times!

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 6:54 PM
Whatever u want me to shoot an AR?

wildcard
11-29-2007, 6:58 PM
Heck no.. bring whatever you're best with :)

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 7:01 PM
he said it's quite possible to get it done in 10 weeks. i'll call him in two months, just to make sure. same exact barrel, AMU contour 1:11 twist expect this one has no flutes.

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 7:19 PM
Allright ill snap some pics make your choice. Give me a few mins.

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 7:19 PM
He has been shipping my barrel for 2 weeks now.

Whenever I call, my barrels will be done in two weeks too. :(

I'll believe it when I see the charge hit my card...

rksimple
11-29-2007, 7:24 PM
Whenever I call, my barrels will be done in two weeks too. :(

I'll believe it when I see the charge hit my card...

Dang. All this talk of waiting so dang long for a rock has me thinking Broughton...or Krieger, or Hart or somebody who won't take so long. Better start looking around...

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 7:25 PM
anyone know how much i can sell a SPS stock for? practically brand new with less than 100 rounds of usage.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 7:27 PM
Dang. All this talk of waiting so dang long for a rock has me thinking Broughton...or Krieger, or Hart or somebody who won't take so long. Better start looking around...

i was thinking broughton or obermeyer but decided an another rock barrel to match my first build.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 7:29 PM
i was thinking broughton or obermeyer but decided an another rock barrel to match my first build.

I'll wait even longer for an obey. Krieger said 12 weeks when I called...don't know about Broughton. I'll call tomorrow.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 7:30 PM
all things that take time are usually waiting for.

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 7:32 PM
Guys call up George @ GA precision, he has too many 1-11.25 barrels in stock he will hook u up!

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 7:34 PM
Guys call up George @ GA precision, he has too many 1-11.25 barrels in stock he will hook u up!

don't plan on shooting 175smk anymore.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 7:34 PM
Guys call up George @ GA precision, he has too many 1-11.25 barrels in stock he will hook u up!

I thought I'd give him a call tomorrow too. He usually seems to have a lot of barrels in stock from different manufacturers. I guess pacnor's always an option too.

Prc329
11-29-2007, 7:40 PM
Hmm. I might just do that. Are they rock creek?

rksimple
11-29-2007, 7:42 PM
don't plan on shooting 175smk anymore.

Doesn't matter. Due to the length and bearing surface of the 155 scenar, it needs a twist like the 175 SMK would. Are you going with a tighter twist?

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 7:44 PM
i'm sticking with the exact twist on my first build. 1:11

i need to keep the two builds the same. only differences would be a 1.5 stock, badger 20moa base, badger rings, and leupold mark 4 instead of 2.0 stock, seekins 20moa base and rings with a uso sn3 tpal.

i'll be keeping only one build at the very end.

my current build will be the under dog.

on a side note, i did a little machining today just for fun. it was pretty cool to see the shavings fall off the bare metal.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 7:48 PM
Isn't it a rock, pete? I thought most of the rock blanks in 308 were 1 in 11.25, unless otherwise specified. Don't know for sure.

Prc329
11-29-2007, 7:51 PM
Isn't it a rock, pete? I thought most of the rock blanks in 308 were 1 in 11.25, unless otherwise specified. Don't know for sure.

Mine is a 1-10.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 7:53 PM
Isn't it a rock, pete? I thought most of the rock blanks in 308 were 1 in 11.25, unless otherwise specified. Don't know for sure.

you can do whatever you want, countour, twist rate, barrel length, fluting.

yes both barrels are Rock.

Also, if the build comes out to what I'm expecting, it might be given away to a shooter that will compete in matches throughout the year, wearing the Bones' Brigade Armory shirt and shooting the rifle. Must be an accomplished shooter, placing top 2 in the local matches in southern cali.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 7:56 PM
Oh of course you can do whatever you want, but isn't the "standard" 5R barrel a 1 in 11.25? You can tell I shoot factory barrels. I shoot whatever the heck comes on the gun!

FWIW, theres an interesting article on Lilja's website about barrel twists and "overstabilization." Its a good read.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 8:03 PM
Oh of course you can do whatever you want, but isn't the "standard" 5R barrel a 1 in 11.25? You can tell I shoot factory barrels. I shoot whatever the heck comes on the gun!

FWIW, theres an interesting article on Lilja's website about barrel twists and "overstabilization." Its a good read.

I believe it's the MTU contour that comes in 11.25 twist. not 100% sure, trying to dig it out of my memory.

ar15barrels
11-29-2007, 8:38 PM
I'll wait even longer for an obey. Krieger said 12 weeks when I called...don't know about Broughton. I'll call tomorrow.

If Krieger tells you 12 weeks, believe it.
They usually beat their quote by a day or two.
I have used a bunch of Krieger barrels.
Good stuff there.

Mike Rock is good stuff too, when you can get them.

Cypriss32
11-29-2007, 8:39 PM
#7 1-11.25 is standered barrel guys, you all need to call Randy and ask himbout a rock barrels, ohh ya ask George too. Id run a 1-11.25 NOT an 1-10, 1-10 if for 30-06 and 300win/wsm, ultra mags. Try to get an bartlien, Schneider Barrels, or Obermeyer. I hear the obermeyer are the FASTest barrels out there. Too much propiganda in rock barrels it sounds like, im discovering this learning from the man himself, Randy. He builds em, i trust him with whats the best.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:05 PM
1:11.25 twist is primarily designed to shoot 175smk. i also got advice from Randy and he said 1:11 to 1:12 twist is optimal for shooting 155 and 168. again the reason for going to 1:11 twist.

wildcard
11-29-2007, 9:10 PM
I've waited almost 5 months for my Satern cut barrel :(

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:12 PM
anyone use a Seekonk 1-75lb variable torque wrench? worth getting? good quality? there is always something to get for gunsmithing, it seems like. good thing Joe is making some of his own tools! what a machinist, huh? he says a true machinist should be able to make any tool given the time.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 9:14 PM
1:11.25 twist is primarily designed to shoot 175smk. i also got advice from Randy and he said 1:11 to 1:12 twist is optimal for shooting 155 and 168. again the reason for going to 1:11 twist.

The 1 in 11 will sling the 175 just fine. Its not the weight of the bullet that is the determinant of which twist rate to use. Its the bearing surface of the bullet and resultant length. Ones with less bearing surface tend to be longer and require more twist. Theoretically, the 155 SMK would require less twist to stabilize vs. the 155 scenar as the scenar is much longer than the SMK.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 9:15 PM
anyone use a Seekonk 1-75lb variable torque wrench? worth getting? good quality?

Any Seekonk wrench is going to be top of the line. Whats the price?

wildcard
11-29-2007, 9:15 PM
anyone use a Seekonk 1-75lb variable torque wrench? worth getting? good quality? there is always something to get for gunsmithing, it seems like. good thing Joe is making some of his own tools! what a machinist, huh? he says a true machinist should be able to make any tool given the time.

Haven't used it.. but can't go wrong with Seekonk..

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:16 PM
Any Seekonk wrench is going to be top of the line. Whats the price?

looks like $160 at brownells plus the 1/4" socket converter which is $4 more.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:21 PM
by the way, custom brakes are being designed at this minute. i got to see the prototype. it's looks great! we're going to try it out in the next couple of weeks. i'll post a range report later when we get to test it out.

Prc329
11-29-2007, 9:21 PM
looks like $160 at brownells plus the 1/4" socket converter which is $4 more.

$127.95
$3.04

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:22 PM
$127.95
$3.04

cool, i need to get a tool that disassembles the bolt. let me look for the part. brb

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:25 PM
and this part too, please. thanks a million!

488-001-000

Prc329
11-29-2007, 9:29 PM
No discount on that guy. Order them?

Prc329
11-29-2007, 9:30 PM
Check your pms Pete

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:31 PM
yep, thanks!

we're gonna make your rifle top notch, no worries nayt. he explained alot of the actual machine work that was needed, and he said it should be a cinch.

rksimple
11-29-2007, 9:33 PM
yep, thanks!

we're gonna make your rifle top notch, no worries nayt. he explained alot of the actual machine work that was needed, and he said it should be a cinch.

Dang pete. You got me all worked up over this stuff with Joe. Hes in lancaster? I have tomorrow off. Is he going to be around? I'd like to get a look see at this stuff.

Timberwolf
11-29-2007, 9:40 PM
All this talk about barrels from Rock - let me through a slider in on ya - Savannah's is a 1-10 Rock 5R and it'll shoot everything from 190s down to 150s with no problem. Also its the fastest barrel I've ever owned.

Don't get hung up on the twist. As a rule the 1-12s were made for the 168 bullet but they'll sling 175s all day long just keep the velocity above 2650. The 1-11.25 was specifically made for the 175 SMK but it'll sling 190s and the 1-10 was always the 30 cal do all.

PistolPete75
11-29-2007, 9:40 PM
Dang pete. You got me all worked up over this stuff with Joe. Hes in lancaster? I have tomorrow off. Is he going to be around? I'd like to get a look see at this stuff.

ya, it's pretty cool. he has his own workshop in his backyard. it's like 800 square feet. he works out of it with his fulltime business making car parts.

shoot, he was going to make his own torch wrench too, but i decided against it. i want to save him time and the drama of doing it.

i have to see him again once i get the rest of the tools and nayt's rifle in my hands. i'll call you before i head out there and we could go together.

thing i like about him the most is he is really chill and relaxed. makes life alot easier, plus it makes it easier on the whole trust factor.

Prc329
11-29-2007, 9:44 PM
All this talk about barrels from Rock - let me through a slider in on ya - Savannah's is a 1-10 Rock 5R and it'll shoot everything from 190s down to 150s with no problem. Also its the fastest barrel I've ever owned.

Don't get hung up on the twist. As a rule the 1-12s were made for the 168 bullet but they'll sling 175s all day long just keep the velocity above 2650. The 1-11.25 was specifically made for the 175 SMK but it'll sling 190s and the 1-10 was always the 30 cal do all.

That is why I chose 1-10. I'll mainly shoot the 155s but I like to experiment every now and then with other stuff. Been wanting to mess with some 190s just for ****s and giggles.

Cypriss32
11-30-2007, 2:08 PM
Ya, sounds like Mike@ Rock barrels sorted out the problems. Looks GTG justs needs to work on his comunication time.

DJDace
11-30-2007, 3:29 PM
I've waited almost 5 months for my Satern cut barrel :(

Ugh, I forgot you ordered a Satern barrerl wildcard :( I really hope it comes through for you by 1st quarter 2008. Some guys on the Grendel forum waited 10+ months for a barrel, especially now since AA is ordering Saterns for their GSR rifle.

wildcard
11-30-2007, 3:53 PM
Ugh, I forgot you ordered a Satern barrerl wildcard :( I really hope it comes through for you by 1st quarter 2008. Some guys on the Grendel forum waited 10+ months for a barrel, especially now since AA is ordering Saterns for their GSR rifle.

Can't wait.. I got 6 10-round mags.. couple hundred brass... and everything else waiting to go. This ought to make me a bit more competitive with the mag loaders to shave of a few seconds. Weight savings will be nice too.. but i'm wondering how the Magpul 93B stock will function in prone.

DJDace
11-30-2007, 4:25 PM
Can't wait.. I got 6 10-round mags.. couple hundred brass... and everything else waiting to go. This ought to make me a bit more competitive with the mag loaders to shave of a few seconds. Weight savings will be nice too.. but i'm wondering how the Magpul 93B stock will function in prone.

If I was you ... get the Command Arms sniper stock. It's light, has storage, built in mono-pod, good cheek weld and adjustable LOP. If I had been going for a light build I would have taken it over the PRS.

ar15barrels
11-30-2007, 10:21 PM
we're gonna make your rifle top notch, no worries nayt. he explained alot of the actual machine work that was needed

Who is "he"?

PistolPete75
12-01-2007, 11:27 AM
Who is "he"?

i thought you weren't interested in the build anymore, so it really shouldn't matter to you. since you withdrew yourself from participating, please don't participate. nayt in the end has nothing to worry about, cause i am garanteing all work and the parts 100%. meaning it's my pocketbook that is taking the risk. if you will stop hating, you can still participate. it's up to you. i am a reasonable man, and like i said before i have no ill will against you.

hypertex
12-01-2007, 2:11 PM
FYI, just ordered a barrel from Gary Schneider, he qouted 6-8 weeks.

Prc329
12-01-2007, 3:27 PM
WOOHOO barrel did ship. Card was charged.

ar15barrels
12-01-2007, 5:14 PM
i thought you weren't interested in the build anymore, so it really shouldn't matter to you.
since you withdrew yourself from participating, please don't participate.

What gave you that idea?

Cypriss32
12-01-2007, 5:34 PM
Cant we all get along?

PistolPete75
12-01-2007, 5:47 PM
What gave you that idea?

funny, i thought you were mad at me and didn't want to do the build with us. so i guess everything is good then. sounds good. i'm happy your in the project with us! :0)

once we get nayts rifle and barrel, i'll give you a call. we will have the reamer, go and no gauges, etc. you do not need to spend a penny on this project.

let's do this!

rksimple
12-01-2007, 5:50 PM
With Joe and Randall, I think this is going to turn out perfectly.:D

Prc329
12-01-2007, 6:35 PM
:jump:

PistolPete75
12-01-2007, 6:35 PM
With Joe and Randall, I think this is going to turn out perfectly.:D

i also have a detailed guide to install a match barrel and blueprint an action. we gonna do this!

we'll name it the "SCPRC" project.

wildcard
12-01-2007, 6:44 PM
Yay. No more drama. I usually just sit back and watch the show.. but it's no fun when it's between my friends. Good to see it's settled.

PistolPete75
12-01-2007, 6:48 PM
i may not be a machinist or a gunsmith, but i am a resourceful guy! :)

guide will be an autocad instructional illustration explanating in full detail what to do.

with Randal heading the project, Joe machining, with the help of the guide i expect to get this done the first time around! whoot whoot!

PistolPete75
12-01-2007, 7:03 PM
disclaimer to the public. there is no exchange of money being done here. it's simply a friend getting a rifle worked on by another friend with no exchange of money or other forms of payment. no business is being done here by any means. joe hernandez is not a gunsmith and is not gunsmithing as defined by the atf. joe, randall, and i are not acting as a business in anyway or pretending to be one.

Mute
12-02-2007, 5:14 PM
This should be fun. Pictures when done, definitely.

Prc329
12-02-2007, 11:01 PM
Hey Pete check your PMs.

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 8:59 AM
got your pm and replied. yes, everything is all good and all is participating in the first SCPRC project.

this is going to be a fun project. the minimum thing i want to get out of this is to at least be able to accurize 700s within our group which would be totally cool. there is too much talent here to let it go to waste.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 9:16 AM
Does he have a CNC machine by any chance? Maybe we can all "borrow" his machine and each make our own receivers under supervision :) No markings.. no serial numbers.. maybe just "SCPRC - Bones Brigade Custom." I'm just talking out of my butt.

So when does the first rifle get completed? I'm looking to get started on my 700 Long Action real soon! Say.. do you offer custom engraving?

As for my testing.. I'll be doing it this coming weekend instead.. I had the 500 yard range to myself so hanging out at 100 yds wasn't going to happen. I got to shoot out to 600 yds.

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 9:17 AM
we will be using this as a guide.

THE COMPLETE ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO PRECISION RIFLE BARREL FITTING

http://www.precisionshooting.com/books.html

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 9:22 AM
Does he have a CNC machine by any chance? Maybe we can all "borrow" his machine and each make our own receivers under supervision :) No markings.. no serial numbers.. maybe just "SCPRC - Bones Brigade Custom." I'm just talking out of my butt.

So when does the first rifle get completed? I'm looking to get started on my 700 Long Action real soon! Say.. do you offer custom engraving?

As for my testing.. I'll be doing it this coming weekend instead.. I had the 500 yard range to myself so hanging out at 100 yds wasn't going to happen. I got to shoot out to 600 yds.

both Randall and Joe does not have a CNC. they are both manual lathes.

CNC machinary and programming takes some major dollars. It's done for commercial purposes.

most likely, Joe and I are just going to be hobbyist gunsmith doing our own stuff. Mayby one day, we can open a shop. Issue is we need a FFL gunsmithing license to be legit and go into business unless we can get it approved at his workshop located in his residence which we are researching with the city right now.

For now, we are just doing it for fun and for the sake to see if we can get it done.

Prc329
12-03-2007, 9:24 AM
Does he have a CNC machine by any chance? Maybe we can all "borrow" his machine and each make our own receivers under supervision :) No markings.. no serial numbers.. maybe just "SCPRC - Bones Brigade Custom." I'm just talking out of my butt.

That would be cool. Buy our own block of stainless steel and "make" our own receivers.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 9:27 AM
That would be cool. Buy our own block of stainless steel and "make" our own receivers.

You know what i'm talking about :)

Prc329
12-03-2007, 9:28 AM
Anyone know a source for Remington actions without getting into the custom actions? Midway has them but I want to see of I can find them cheaper.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 9:31 AM
Anyone know a source for Remington actions without getting into the custom actions? Midway has them but I want to see of I can find them cheaper.

I recall that Brownells has them.

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 9:41 AM
it would be way cool to make our own actions. i got charged $350 from Randy. i paid $925 on my 2.0 stock, so i don't feel bad at all.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 9:49 AM
it would be way cool to make our own actions. i got charged $350 from Randy. i paid $925 on my 2.0 stock, so i don't feel bad at all.

I still can't get over the price of those stocks! I guess i'm a traditionalist and favor the McMillan stocks. The A4 has my attention when I decide to go full custom...

Prc329
12-03-2007, 9:51 AM
Once you add a Badger bottom metal to any stock you start pushing an AICS cost.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 9:55 AM
Once you add a Badger bottom metal to any stock you start pushing an AICS cost.

Well like they say.. maybe I just need one of each :)

Though seriously it's not the price of the rifles that gets me.. it's having to buy the optics!

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 9:57 AM
Well like they say.. maybe I just need one of each :)

Though seriously it's not the price of the rifles that gets me.. it's having to buy the optics!

my wife and i budgeted last night. i have zero dollars to spend next year on shooting. what i have, is what i shoot. these are my last projects guys. :(

thank God, i got all my stuff ordered. they don't count, since the order was already placed. (loophole)

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 10:02 AM
Well like they say.. maybe I just need one of each :)

Though seriously it's not the price of the rifles that gets me.. it's having to buy the optics!

get the ior 3-18 ffp scope. it's not illuminated, but it's one hell of a scope for the money!

Prc329
12-03-2007, 10:05 AM
get the ior 3-18 ffp scope. it's not illuminated, but it's one hell of a scope for the money!

I concur with his assessment. I also have word that IOR will be making the 4-14x50 in FFP and mils but is about a year away.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 10:13 AM
get the ior 3-18 ffp scope. it's not illuminated, but it's one hell of a scope for the money!

It's what i plan to do! Now does anyone know how I can change that $1300 price tag into something significantly less? :p

wildcard
12-03-2007, 10:16 AM
my wife and i budgeted last night. i have zero dollars to spend next year on shooting. what i have, is what i shoot. these are my last projects guys. :(

thank God, i got all my stuff ordered. they don't count, since the order was already placed. (loophole)

Does that also include reloading components? :(

You're not completely locked down since you're free lance.. you KNOW miscellaneous money makers will come up!

Prc329
12-03-2007, 10:17 AM
Sperm bank and blood bank. Sell a kidney. Sell your girlfriends eggs. Eat top roman for a month or 4.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 10:26 AM
Sperm bank and blood bank. Sell a kidney. Sell your girlfriends eggs. Eat top roman for a month or 4.

Or the big payout is selling your body to science :) Top ramen for months.. I knew people in college that did that.

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 11:06 AM
It's what i plan to do! Now does anyone know how I can change that $1300 price tag into something significantly less? :p


looked for used ones for about $1050, just wait a little bit.

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 11:07 AM
Does that also include reloading components? :(

You're not completely locked down since you're free lance.. you KNOW miscellaneous money makers will come up!


i'm still going to reload, but i have to conserve. i dunno if i can blast freely like i did before. my 300-400 will be like cut in half, and will be substituted for .223 bolt action.

i only make like 4k a month now. i used to make like 12k, and the last couple of years before 20-30k/month. i'm on a downward spiral. i can't pay all the bills at my current cash flow rate. my wife and i need to combine our income to barely make out without going into our savings. must conserve.

if it gets any worse, i might have to go look for a real job! anyone need their lawn mowed? i work for reloading components. :(

problem with real estate, feast or famine. i definitely see famine coming in real fast.

rksimple
12-03-2007, 11:59 AM
i work for reloading components. :(



Come on up to Tehachapi. I need another dental hygienist. I'll pay you in scenars.

PistolPete75
12-03-2007, 12:00 PM
Come on up to Tehachapi. I need another dental hygienist. I'll pay you in scenars.


hehe, LOL.

wildcard
12-03-2007, 12:27 PM
Come on up to Tehachapi. I need another dental hygienist. I'll pay you in scenars.

Make it SMKs and I may have to consider changing career paths :)

Prc329
12-03-2007, 12:33 PM
I'll do your billing from home for scenars, RL15 and range time.

hypertex
12-03-2007, 1:32 PM
Anyone know a source for Remington actions without getting into the custom actions? Midway has them but I want to see of I can find them cheaper.

Group buy?

wildcard
12-03-2007, 1:50 PM
Group buy?

I would on a custom action!

hypertex
12-03-2007, 2:35 PM
I would on a custom action!

Don't forget that there is a $30-50 rebate on 700's from Remington (http://www.remington.com/library/promotions/2007_open_season_on_savings.asp) until the end of the year.