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odesskiy
11-25-2007, 10:50 PM
Ok guys, here's the situation. A few years back my friend's father purchased a handgun for HD. Some time ago my friend's mother and he were and still are under the impression that the father lacks mental capacity to own a handgun. My friend's mother took the gun and hid it for a while. Eventually the parents separated and she moved out at which point my friend ended up with the gun. He doesn't know if he should turn it in to police or if he can legally keep it. What's the right (and the legal) thing to do?

bwiese
11-25-2007, 11:00 PM
That is lilkely a stolen handgun. The other parties had no right to take it. Are they trained professionals, or did they see illegal conduct?

If they had concerns, there were formal channels to address them - they chose not to. And they had the option of moving out first and foremost.

The 'friend' should not retain the property and should return it to its original owner, or to police - but perhaps best thru an attorney.

How stupid can people get?

The SoCal Gunner
11-25-2007, 11:17 PM
How stupid can people get?

I think that is a little harsh. From a legal standpoint, you are 100% correct. BUT as you asked 'are they trained professionals?' and the answer is likely no in respects to being psychiatrists who can diagnose the father or gun owners/lawyers who understand the laws that revolve around firearm ownership and metal capacity.

As I see it, half of the pistol belongs to the mother and she took it for safe keeping. I totally understand why they would take it away from him though. If your friend and mother believed him to be a danger to himself or others, then I would definitely suggest seeking professional help.

metalhead357
11-25-2007, 11:36 PM
I'm siding with Bill on this one. Even with Communal prop- no intra-form, and then the to-the-son transfer...probably without him having an HSC either.

this smells bad. I'd say have him turn it in...........

artherd
11-25-2007, 11:37 PM
If this guy shouldn't have a gun, then he sure as hell should not have other deadly weapons, for instance an automobile.

That said, the gun so far has passed thru IFT (interfamilial transfer) hands, not requiring paperwork. He can *probably* just keep it, assuming the transfer from father was consensual (or he was not in capacity to consent and his wife did so in his place.) He may need an HSC.

A call to Don Kilmer would be a good idea.

metalhead357
11-25-2007, 11:38 PM
If this guy shouldn't have a gun, then he sure as hell should not have other deadly weapons, for instance an automobile.

That said, the gun so far has passed thru IFT (interfamilial transfer) hands, not requiring paperwork. He can *probably* just keep it, assuming the transfer from father was consensual (or he was not in capacity to consent and his wife did so in his place.) He may need an HSC.

A call to Don Kilmer would be a good idea.

but aint there a 30 day limit to file on the intra? Still fudging past any point I'd reccomend.............

odesskiy
11-26-2007, 7:18 AM
I know Bill is right from the legal standpoint, but the situation had nothing to do with stupidity. The father was going through cancer treatment, which further deteriorated his already brittle psyche. He became less willing to control his terrible temper and threatened his wife with the gun in question during one of the arguments. During one of the "calm" periods she convinced him to turn the pistol over to her, and he did it voluntarily, so the gun wasn't stolen. She chose not to file charges against her husband of almost forty years. They ended up splitting up and she moved out, at which point he asked for the gun back. She lied and said that she turned it in to police, but gave it to her son instead. The son does have HSC and owns other firearms. He was aware of it being an intrafamilial transfer, but was reluctant to file the paperwork, since technically his father did not consent to him having the gun.

It's a messed up situation, but it was caused by human emotions and drama and not by "stupidity".

FortCourageArmory
11-26-2007, 7:53 AM
The lie was where the situation turned from family concern to criminal behavior. In refusing to give the gun back and then giving it to another party, the mother basically stole the gun from the father. Brittle psyche or no, she had no right to deprive him of his property. If she was that concerned, she should have sought legal/medical remedy to his having a gun in a brittle psychological state.

Either the son needs to return it to the father or turn it into the police. keeping stolen property is not the solution.

artherd
11-26-2007, 10:05 AM
but aint there a 30 day limit to file on the intra? Still fudging past any point I'd reccomend.............

Yes for handguns, good point.

In light of further info above, the smartest thing to do may be to cut this one up and pretend like it's vanished into thin air.

ar15barrels
11-26-2007, 10:19 AM
and then the to-the-son transfer...probably without him having an HSC either.

Here's a legitimate question...

Does an father-son handgun transfer actually require an HSC card?

Knauga
11-26-2007, 10:55 AM
According to the BOF, it isn't listed as a requirement.

# Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category PDF logo [PDF 10 kb / 1 pg] and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction PDF logo [PDF 481 kb / 2 pg] and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285, subdivision (b).

(PC section 12078(c))



ETA, when I transferred a pistol from my grandfather to me this way, nowhere did it ask if I had an HSC.

bwiese
11-26-2007, 11:15 AM
Knauga, your reading is incomplete. The section you quoted deals with the ability to do so but does not really deal with full requirements

Not that you should really rely on DOJ docs instead of actual Penal code, but from http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf we have:


Handgun Safety Certificate Requirement

Effective January 1, 2003, any person who wishes to receive a handgun through a sale or
transfer must have a valid Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) or a qualifying exemption.
Any person who wishes to obtain an HSC must pass a written test that includes, but is not
limited to, laws applicable to carrying and handling firearms, particularly handguns; responsibilities
of ownership of firearms, particularly handguns; the law related to the private sale/transfer
of firearms; the law as it relates to the permissible use of lethal force; safe firearm storage;
and issues & prevention strategies associated with bringing firearms into the home. (Penal
Code 12071(b)(8).)

And:

PC 12071(b)(8)(B) Commencing January 1, 2003, no dealer may deliver a handgun
unless the person receiving the handgun presents to the dealer a valid handgun safety
certificate. The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the handgun safety certificate
as proof of compliance with this requirement.

Also we have:

PC 12078(c)(2) (2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer
of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another
if both individuals are members of the same immediate family and both of the following conditions are
met:

(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm,
forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information
concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a
description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph
shall be provided to them by the Department of Justice.

(B) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun safety certificate.
.
.
{snip}
.
.
(d)(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent loan of firearms between
persons who are personally known to each other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed
30 days in duration and, when the firearm is a handgun, commencing January 1, 2003, the individual
being loaned the handgun has a valid handgun safety certificate.

ar15barrels
11-26-2007, 11:17 AM
According to the BOF, it isn't listed as a requirement.

ETA, when I transferred a pistol from my grandfather to me this way, nowhere did it ask if I had an HSC.

The last handgun I got from my dad was done on the $10 "act of law" form, but this was before the HSC even existed.
I just wondered if the process had changed.
It looks like it only got more expensive... :rolleyes:

Knauga
11-26-2007, 2:03 PM
Knauga, your reading is incomplete. The section you quoted deals with the ability to do so but does not really deal with full requirements

I bow to your greater expertise. Just goes to show that you can't rely on the DOJ to tell you the law ;)

I had an HSC but nobody asked for that info to prove I was able to have the pistol, they just sent me a confirmation letter. Sounds like the DOJ could have committed a crime if I hadn't had one by transferring the gun to me.

BTW, that was from their FAQ section on transferring firearms.

fairfaxjim
11-26-2007, 6:14 PM
The laws currently require anyone taking possesion of a handgun in CA to have an HSC unless they are in one of the exempt catagories. The form provided by the DOJ BOF does NOT contain that requirement either in the instructions, or by asking for (or providing a place for) an HSC number on the form. They seem to have forgotten that detail when making the form, which was last updated 10/04, after the HSC program was in place.

Another case of having laws so complex that even though "Bureau of Firearms staff will be leaders in providing firearms expertise and information to law enforcement, legislators, and the general public in a comprehensive program to promote legitimate and responsible firearms possession and use by California residents.", they seem to get it wrong as much or more than they get it right. Good thing they got the 58 DA's to prosecute us when they get it wrong!

metalhead357
11-26-2007, 7:05 PM
The laws currently require anyone taking possesion of a handgun in CA to have an HSC unless they are in one of the exempt catagories.

Whats strange/funny is that several have posted here previously on Cal stating <some> got letters back saying the recipient needed a HSC while <some> others did not....I cant find the blasted thread....was just over a year ago IIRC.........

AJAX22
11-26-2007, 7:25 PM
If this took place before the requirement for the interfamilial paperwork then it 'might' be ok.

His father turned the gun over to his mother (while they were both married) the gun was community property and the mom could legally dispose of it in any way she wanted to.

it was never reported stolen, so at this point its basicly an ethics question.

If the father threatened the mother with it, I dont have a moral problem with the son keeping the gun, however IMHO he should tell his father the truth.

What paperwork was/is required all depends on exactly when the gun was given to the mother and then given to the son.