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G17GUY
11-25-2007, 10:07 PM
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/DN-markdavis_1121edi.ART.State.Edition1.36d835b.html

Obama's signs of disrespect

What kind of candidate chooses to ignore patriotic gesture? asks MARK DAVIS


12:00 AM CST on Wednesday, November 21, 2007

You are standing in a crowd as the national anthem is played. Where is your right hand?

Maybe it is over your heart, maybe not. If it isn't, what does that say about you? Perhaps nothing. Maybe patriotic gestures aren't your thing. Maybe you just forgot.

But what does it mean if you consciously avoid this gesture at a campaign event while you are running for president of the United States?

This has happened and not just once to Democrat Barack Obama. Our job is to figure out how much it matters.

Curiosity about the most famous such instance has sparked interest in the most viewed page at Web watchdog Snopes.com, the heroic souls who beg us to check the accuracy of items in our inboxes before forwarding them to hundreds of gullible people.

Turns out this one is true, and cameras were there to record it.

At an Indianola, Iowa, campaign event in September, as the national anthem is sung, candidates Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bill Richardson stand respectfully, hands over their hearts. Mr. Obama's hands are nonchalantly clasped in front of him, as if he were in line at the dry cleaners.

We all can decide for ourselves whether this is a big deal or not. It is to me, as much for the senator's clumsy explanations as for the symbolism, both of which may be windows to at least part of his soul.

First, let us stipulate that a hand over the heart during the national anthem is no guarantee of good citizenship. Countless elected scoundrels and lawbreakers have performed this gesture, as will attendees at Ku Klux Klan rallies and other dens of iniquity.

But this is about the conscious and repeated choice to not do what custom requires. "Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't," said a campaign spokesperson. "In no way was he making any sort of statement."

Oh, yes, he is. The statement is: "Sometimes I am willing to do what the patriotic etiquette of my country requires, and sometimes I am not. The fact that I seek the highest office in the land makes no difference whatsoever in this regard."

This should give pause. And coupled with Mr. Obama's unfathomable explanation of his lapel pin habits, it rises to the list of those little things that might mean a lot.

In October, reporters noticed that the senator had stopped wearing a U.S. flag pin on his lapel. He lamely replied that he had come to associate the pin with some false kind of patriotism that presumed some political beliefs he did not share.

In other words, unlike immediately after 9/11, when men of all political stripes wore such pins, they are found today chiefly on the lapels of people who actually share the troops' desire to win the war.

This was sad, ham-handed logic, but a flag pin is something one can wear or not wear. I don't always wear one, and if I don't, it isn't because I'm feeling less patriotic that day.

Lapel pins are purely a matter of choice. Flag etiquette in public is not. It is required of every American who wishes to conform with behaviors that show devotion to country. Failure to face the flag, hand over heart, as the anthem is sung or Pledge of Allegiance is recited, is a loud yell that says, "I will not be a part of this." This requires an answer to the question: Why not?

If Mr. Obama believes that honoring the American flag as our national anthem is played is not required of him, one might wonder: In what other ways might we see him reject American traditions? I don't suggest he is some closet radical, but if he truly believes that he needs to avoid the gestures that show pride for his country because he feels they subsume a particular political opinion, that is a frightening precept.

His occasional choice is to snub the flag our soldiers wear in combat today, the flag that adorns every national monument we cherish, the flag that symbolizes freedom for Americans of every color, faith and political party.

If that is not enough to earn Mr. Obama's respect, 100 percent of the time, then the list of reasons he is unfit for the presidency just grew longer.

Mark Davis is heard weekdays from 8 to 11 a.m. on WBAP-AM, News/Talk 820. His e-mail address is mdavis@wbap.com.

{WebSlide} Photo: See the photo for yourself.

{WebDesk} Link: See the Snopes.com entry on Barack Obama and the U.S. flag.

dallasnews.com /extra



http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=765784

Scarecrow Repair
11-25-2007, 10:39 PM
If waving the flag is a sign of patriotism, then I guess used car lots must be owned by the most patriotic SOBs around.

Frankly, I am tired of all the flag waving politicians who pay lip service to vets and cut their hospital care and shaft them at every available opportunity, no to mention how little respect they show for the constitution. I'd trust Obama more for NOT waving the flag than any current politician who DOES wave it while spouting nonsense.

artherd
11-25-2007, 11:17 PM
YAWN, this is the stupid kind of substance-less polarizing bull**** that handlers stay up all night worrying about.

Anyone who gives a flying **** is *completely* missing the point! We have one of the largest deficits in history, the dollar is in the ****, we have an endless war we can't win and is costing American lives, we have a choice between a socialist and an inexperienced frat-boy for the leader of the Free World; and we're printing articles ABOUT A ****ING PIN?!

I weep for our future.

chickenfried
11-25-2007, 11:24 PM
"Hey, Cedric! Bob! This guy won't wear a ribbon!"

DedEye
11-25-2007, 11:33 PM
YAWN, this is the stupid kind of substance-less polarizing bull**** that handlers stay up all night worrying about.

Anyone who gives a flying **** is *completely* missing the point! We have one of the largest deficits in history, the dollar is in the ****, we have an endless war we can't win and is costing American lives, we have a choice between a socialist and an inexperienced frat-boy for the leader of the Free World; and we're printing articles ABOUT A ****ING PIN?!

I weep for our future.

Well said sir!

bwiese
11-25-2007, 11:43 PM
The deficit is large only numerically, not as percent of GNP. Gene Hoffman has some good data on that - and another tax cut will reduce the size of that.

The war is far less expensive than the pension + healthcare outlays for Fed Gov't employees. I'd far rather supply more hardware in the Persian Gulf to kill Muslims than to pay for lifetime healthcare for midlevel secretaries & janitors at the EPA OSHA BATF EEOC etc etc.

Exports are roaring along because our products are now affordable in spite of high gov't-mandated labor costs. Our cost of employment is not necessarily due to high wages per se, but high infrastructure/compliance/legal costs allocated per employee).

We have a war that has already been won several years ago, we just are failing as social welfare administrators. We need to drop a nuke to show who's Boss and move on. (And that will raise the dollar for those concerned about that.)

Barack Hussein Obama concerns me because he's even to the left of Hilary, and is fundamentally un-American. And I do indeed have problems with a Pres who has 'Hussein' as a middle name.

artherd
11-26-2007, 12:22 AM
The deficit is large only numerically, not as percent of GNP. Gene Hoffman has some good data on that - and another tax cut will reduce the size of that.
True, but it's still alarming. I don't exactly consider Europe to be an economic powerhouse anymore (300 years ago; sure. Are we headed there?)

The war is far less expensive than the pension + healthcare outlays for Fed Gov't employees. I'd far rather supply more hardware in the Persian Gulf to kill Muslims than to pay for lifetime healthcare for midlevel secretaries & janitors at the EPA OSHA BATF EEOC etc etc.
I'm right there with ya, but we're paying those anyway 'war' or not. We also got DHS and TSA, essentially new multibilliondollar three-letters, out of the current administration/war/fear.

Exports are roaring along because our products are now affordable in spite of high gov't-mandated labor costs. Our cost of employment is not necessarily due to high wages per se, but high infrastructure/compliance/legal costs allocated per employee).
Tell me about it, workers comp is killing me; and we've never had a claim!

We have a war that has already been won several years ago, we just are failing as social welfare administrators. We need to drop a nuke to show who's Boss and move on. (And that will raise the dollar for those concerned about that.)
The war itself we won in a few weeks, I wish we never would have stuck around; but the whole goal was stabilizing the middle-east through spreading democracy and opportunity. On the surface it's a good idea, how do you fight extremism anywhere? Give the ****ers jobs!


Barack Hussein Obama concerns me because he's even to the left of Hilary, and is fundamentally un-American. And I do indeed have problems with a Pres who has 'Hussein' as a middle name.

It's a pretty unfortunate coincidence that's for sure!

JohnJW
11-26-2007, 12:40 AM
Barack Hussein Obama concerns me because he's even to the left of Hilary, and is fundamentally un-American. And I do indeed have problems with a Pres who has 'Hussein' as a middle name.

That's like saying you don't shoot Glock because it sound funny. I'm sure 50 years ago people probably said the same for Giuliani. My first choice is McCain, then Richardson and I really could care less if Richardson's last name is Richardson or Lopez or whatever. Obama is un-American? Really? and I suppose you're the authority on what is American or not.

Charliegone
11-26-2007, 12:49 AM
Ehh...Bush stepped on the American flag....

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/images/flag.jpg

Maybe he didn't notice or I don't know....but...yeah...

troyus
11-26-2007, 1:42 AM
Cheney wears a flag on his suit and he's a piece of ****.

I'm sure Cunningham did too before he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and got sent to prison. Anyone can talk the talk.

troyus
11-26-2007, 1:55 AM
The deficit is large only numerically, not as percent of GNP. Gene Hoffman has some good data on that - and another tax cut will reduce the size of that.

The war is far less expensive than the pension + healthcare outlays for Fed Gov't employees. I'd far rather supply more hardware in the Persian Gulf to kill Muslims than to pay for lifetime healthcare for midlevel secretaries & janitors at the EPA OSHA BATF EEOC etc etc.

Exports are roaring along because our products are now affordable in spite of high gov't-mandated labor costs. Our cost of employment is not necessarily due to high wages per se, but high infrastructure/compliance/legal costs allocated per employee).

We have a war that has already been won several years ago, we just are failing as social welfare administrators. We need to drop a nuke to show who's Boss and move on. (And that will raise the dollar for those concerned about that.)

Barack Hussein Obama concerns me because he's even to the left of Hilary, and is fundamentally un-American. And I do indeed have problems with a Pres who has 'Hussein' as a middle name.

Exports are picking up because the dollar is currently worthless. Due to the war and money the government doesn't have and needs to borrow to fund it. Have you traveled lately? Everything costs about double what it did 10 years ago when abroad. Killing muslims won't solve the problems here. Killing is not the ideal solution to any problem.

Dropping nukes to show people 'who is boss'... wow... you're joking right? That's such primitive thinking I am stunned. Can you imagine the environmental/political/social ramifications of that? There's literally so much fallout from that idea I can't bother to write it all down. It's just plain ignorant. It sounds like something I'd hear from a skinhead or a Klansman.:rolleyes:

Mize
11-26-2007, 2:30 AM
Killing is not a solution to any problem? That sounds pretty ignorant too! Some people can't be talked to. I don't think nukes are the answer either. The dollar is still the "gold standard."
I agree with Bill... most of the time... I like my mini 14 :)

Rob P.
11-26-2007, 7:42 AM
The deficit is large only numerically, not as percent of GNP. Gene Hoffman has some good data on that - and another tax cut will reduce the size of that.

The war is far less expensive than the pension + healthcare outlays for Fed Gov't employees. I'd far rather supply more hardware in the Persian Gulf to kill Muslims than to pay for lifetime healthcare for midlevel secretaries & janitors at the EPA OSHA BATF EEOC etc etc.

Exports are roaring along because our products are now affordable in spite of high gov't-mandated labor costs. Our cost of employment is not necessarily due to high wages per se, but high infrastructure/compliance/legal costs allocated per employee).

We have a war that has already been won several years ago, we just are failing as social welfare administrators. We need to drop a nuke to show who's Boss and move on. (And that will raise the dollar for those concerned about that.)

Barack Hussein Obama concerns me because he's even to the left of Hilary, and is fundamentally un-American. And I do indeed have problems with a Pres who has 'Hussein' as a middle name.

I hear the dissatisfaction in your post regarding the current situation. However, it isn't Obama or any of the other candidates who created that situation. It was GW with some help from the Clinton's. Who in turn had some help from Bush the elder and the Reagan years are in there too. Essentially, our political problems have been building since WWII when we went global.

Isolationism isn't the answer. We discussed that issue back in the 40's and eventually realized that we cannot stand if we stand alone. So, we are now the world's watchdog and policeman. The middle east war is the current iteration of that.

Obama's name is troubling to me only in the sense that people link it to the current middle east conflicts without any basis for doing so. It is the same as saying that you wouldn't patronize any business who is run by some guy with the name of Adolph. Adolph Coors runs a pretty decent business and has done so for over 100 years yet no one considers that business to be related to Hitler. There are countless people in history with great namesakes who were slimeballs. Many too who have the same name as our greatest oppressors who have done great works. The NAME doesn't matter.

Yet we are now going to decide who our future president is going to be based on a name, a lapel pin, a hand over the heart, etc instead of what the person has DONE! in their life.

Of all of those running for president, very few have done good work. Most are slime with checkered pasts. Obama is one of the former. And, while he may not be the best choice, he's the least worrisome of those in the front of the pack.

troyus
11-26-2007, 8:50 AM
Killing is not a solution to any problem? That sounds pretty ignorant too! Some people can't be talked to. I don't think nukes are the answer either. The dollar is still the "gold standard."
I agree with Bill... most of the time... I like my mini 14 :)

I said it is not the ideal solution. It is not ideal because it cannot be undone at a later time.

Once you drop the bomb/pull the trigger, there is no going back.

FortCourageArmory
11-26-2007, 8:57 AM
"Nothing wrong with killing as long as the right people get shot." A quote from a pop icon. Seemed appropriate.

Glock22Fan
11-26-2007, 10:29 AM
What effing scares me is that there isn't one "serious" candidate on either side for whom I want to vote. Bill Richardson or Ron Paul would be the most acceptable, but the top candidates in their respective parties need to take each other out before either of these stands a chance.

The only thing I'm sure of is that I will vote against Hillobama, no matter what.

How did we arrive in this scary situation?

xrMike
11-26-2007, 12:27 PM
Dropping nukes to show people 'who is boss'... wow... you're joking right? .:rolleyes:Unfortunately, he is not.

N6ATF
11-26-2007, 12:57 PM
No fake patriotism while simultaneously using the Constitution printed on toilet paper!!

Prc329
11-26-2007, 1:07 PM
I find it hard to take a candidate serious that can not do something as simple as salute the flag of the country he plans to try and run. I already decided his inexperience was enough for me not to like him as a candidate but small stuff like this solidifies my problems with him.

This is coming from a black man that would love to see a realistic black individual put up a real good showing at the polls.

Waingro
11-26-2007, 1:24 PM
YAWN, this is the stupid kind of substance-less polarizing bull**** that handlers stay up all night worrying about.

Anyone who gives a flying **** is *completely* missing the point! We have one of the largest deficits in history, the dollar is in the ****, we have an endless war we can't win and is costing American lives, we have a choice between a socialist and an inexperienced frat-boy for the leader of the Free World; and we're printing articles ABOUT A ****ING PIN?!

I weep for our future.

100% agree. Fix our country, personally I don't care how many wives you had, how you do or don't show patriotism, or the color of your skin. (I would put sex in there but I don't want Hilliary to win;))

artherd
11-26-2007, 3:12 PM
100% agree. Fix our country, personally I don't care how many wives you had, how you do or don't show patriotism, or the color of your skin. (I would put sex in there but I don't want Hilliary to win;))

Hell I don't care how many BJs you give (or got) in the oval office, infact I'm all for either, just run the place! :D

megavolt121
11-26-2007, 3:34 PM
Um, there was a video of this incident somewhere online... They were singing the National Anthem, not saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

PS If you find the video, make sure you mute it because the singer really really sucks, she's even worse than William Hung!

troyus
11-26-2007, 3:43 PM
Um, there was a video of this incident somewhere online... They were singing the National Anthem, not saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

PS If you find the video, make sure you mute it because the singer really really sucks, she's even worse than William Hung!

But was it this bad?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XdI37HbztWI

accordingtoome
11-26-2007, 3:48 PM
"Hey, Cedric! Bob! This guy won't wear a ribbon!"

he prob has a Karate class with little kids too..

:D

Josh3239
11-26-2007, 4:26 PM
I find it hard to take a candidate serious that can not do something as simple as salute the flag of the country he plans to try and run. I already decided his inexperience was enough for me not to like him as a candidate but small stuff like this solidifies my problems with him.

Definely agree with Prc329, Barack Obama IMO is a terrible candidate. Setting aside his beliefs on issues like guns, setting aside he is a 1 term senator with a questionable attendance record, the fact that he cannot show respect to the flag and those who risked their lives and bodies for it is disrespectful to me and this country. I am shocked that so many people are okay with it.

People say stuff to the effect of "good he isn't another politician who bull****s us", I ask, in a presidential candidate we only have the option between patriotic or good? We can't do both? It's okay to have a candidate running for the most powerful office in this country and he cannot even put a hand over his heart to respect this country and the men who helped build it?

If the only defense to Obama is "good he isn't another dishonest politician like GWB, we should be fixing the country" then you may want to reconsider another candidate because that is a horrible defense. The guy cannot show respect to this country but has the ability to fix it? Please...

Cheney wears a flag on his suit and he's a piece of ****.

That doesn't change the fact that he loves this country and did what he thought was necessary to help it. Whether good or bad he did what he thought was in America's best interest. People's opinion of him has no relation to the flag on his jacket.

For the record, I like Bill have a problem electing a Muslim or someone with the middle name Hussein. You guys can make analogies about Glocks to funny names or Adolph to Hitler but the fact is that there isn't a large amount of people who are connected culturally, religously at the least, who seek to destroy America named Adolph or Glock.

DedEye
11-26-2007, 5:04 PM
That doesn't change the fact that he loves this country and did what he thought was necessary to help it. Whether good or bad he did what he thought was in America's best interest. People's opinion of him has no relation to the flag on his jacket.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

troyus
11-26-2007, 6:08 PM
For the record, I like Bill have a problem electing a Muslim or someone with the middle name Hussein. You guys can make analogies about Glocks to funny names or Adolph to Hitler but the fact is that there isn't a large amount of people who are connected culturally, religously at the least, who seek to destroy America named Adolph or Glock.

If you don't want Obama, that's your call. He's not my first pick either. It's the principle of (some of) the reasoning behind the conclusions that I don't see any validity for. Can't we be greater men than deciding on someones virtues by a flag pin, or the NAME they were born with? Because really how far off from gender, hair color, sexual orientation, or skin color is that line of thinking?

Also, Obama isn't Muslim. Are you Jewish, Josh, "Jehoshuah"? Even if you are... how many guys named Josh have you known that are NOT Jewish? I can think of several. Anyway, you can read up on facts about the guy on snopes, before slamming him into the ground due to his name.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp


Decide on a candidate because of their policies and their track record, not their race, gender, or their name. In a sense it's a depressing thing to argue about, but then I realize 50 years ago this discussion wouldn't even take place. So at least that's some improvement.

Hoop
11-26-2007, 6:23 PM
But was it this bad?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XdI37HbztWI

I like the part where the camera focuses on the huge, uniformed shaved ape who doesn't look very happy.

Mize
11-26-2007, 7:22 PM
After watching that cop butcher our anthem, I don't know whether to cry or beat the hell out of something. Why!?

trashman
11-26-2007, 7:47 PM
The war is far less expensive than the pension + healthcare outlays for Fed Gov't employees. I'd far rather supply more hardware in the Persian Gulf to kill Muslims than to pay for lifetime healthcare for midlevel secretaries & janitors at the EPA OSHA BATF EEOC etc etc.

Hmm...this got my attention, and I think you're wrong on this point, empirically speaking. A quick look at EOP's *actual* 2006 outlays for "Former Civilian Personnel" - including pensions and health & life insurance = $67.8 billion.

And from CBO testimony, the cumulative cost of the War on Terror, including Vet benefits, is $604 billion from 2001-2007. An average cost of $100 Billion / year.

And while I appreciate the sentiment here, Bill - (namely, that our Federal workforce is expensive and not particularly high value) a good case can be made that $255 billion in salaries paid to all federal workers (including DOD salaries) is positive stimulus for the economy, even if a chunk of it is pure pragmatic/political graft.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/empl.html
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/86xx/doc8690/10-24-CostOfWar_Testimony.pdf


We have a war that has already been won several years ago, we just are failing as social welfare administrators.

Or more accurately, we failed as a geopolitical power. We blew it. The thing the NeoCons got right was the "You break it, you own it". We own it, and this Thing Of Ours is going to cost us, and our kids, for a long time.

I have held for a while the long view that this was an inevitable conflict (I supported the war from the outset); but the fact that we've handled this poorly makes me wonder what the conflict with China will look like -- economic or military. We're stretched too thin to compete. And it just didn't have to be this way.

--Neill

dustoff31
11-26-2007, 10:56 PM
Decide on a candidate because of their policies and their track record, not their race, gender, or their name.

Now this is quite reasonable. Should we conclude that Obama intends to do for the rest of country what he has done for Chicago and the State of Illinois?

N6ATF
11-27-2007, 12:12 AM
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

And evil intentions... but that's too obvious.
:43:

troyus
11-27-2007, 1:44 AM
Now this is quite reasonable. Should we conclude that Obama intends to do for the rest of country what he has done for Chicago and the State of Illinois?

Yes... firearm registration, decaying of 2nd amendment rights.

Otherwise, he's not so terribly bad. And by bad I mean Hillary, Bush, or Guiliani.

Why are all the great presidents dead?:shrug:

MINIsandpirate
11-27-2007, 5:14 AM
At this point the dems are in hot water...the congress/senate that was gonna fix everything...get us out of the war and what not...failed miserably...they hold an approval rating almost 10% lower than the president...say what you want about GWB but at least he had the cojones to do what he believed was right...and stick with it....not run when it turned south(like all those phony dems senators who voted for the war and are now bad mouthing it)...i think we are still stuck on the idea of how a war should be....where there is some evil empire like figure that we have to crush....the face of the enemy is everchanging...how do you think Gore would have reacted to 9/11?would he have pulled a clinton and tossed money at the terrorists responsible in hopes they will go away....the fact of the matter is everyone thinks clintons presidency was great....barring certain things he did (bj or not what he did was wrong)...but in fact he was riding the windfalls that followed the first gulf war....fact of the matter is 9/11 changed everything...it will never be the same....why are all the good presidents dead? they served their times and have passed into memory...its about time we stopped this idealistic view on how the world should be and take in what it is today....you want to stop the terrorists?take away the one thing that spreads their message and fear tactics the most....the media....it seems CNN gives them the biggest voice...showing a insurgent made video of them sniping us? you may think its bringing balanced news but all your doing is giving our worst nightmare a voice....right now we are paying the price for inaction and things that should have been dealt with in a swift and deadly manner years ago...what did bin laden say after the first attempt on the WTC...i will return to finish the job....lo and behold what happened? what we need is a president who will not blink...a president who will stare down our worst nightmares and fears and say "you cannot break us, we will weather this storm"...

just my .02:D

troyus
11-27-2007, 8:21 AM
what we need is a president who will not blink...a president who will stare down our worst nightmares and fears and say "you cannot break us, we will weather this storm"...

just my .02:D

Haha, man, I didn't vote for Bush before and I'm sure as hell not going to do it now! ;)

Prc329
11-27-2007, 8:23 AM
You gotta give Bush credit where credit is due. He does have a set of steel, hairy balls. We haven't had a President with a pair in a long time. He may have taken bad advice but he did what he thought was best.

Hoop
11-27-2007, 8:26 AM
Why are all the great presidents dead?:shrug:

Because they're dead. If they were still alive we probably wouldn't like them as much.

Regardless, I would never vote for Obama. The only thing he has going for him is that he's not near as plastic as Hillary, other than that they are the same thing.

Scarecrow Repair
11-27-2007, 8:39 AM
At this point the dems are in hot water

Your analysis is completely off the mark. The Bushies have shown seven years of fumbling and bumbling. Far from sticking to his plan, he started that war with no plan and has since gone thru several, each time claiming first that it is not a change, then claiming it will change things. Voters notice things like that, and Katrina, and the Alaskan bridge to nowhere, and seven years of it rankles.

As for the Dems being in hot water for not accomplishing anything, you misunderstand both politics and voters. It is Congress which has not accomplished anything, not the Dems, and if you look at the details of polling, the Dems in Congress rate higher than the GOP. Voters pay attention.

Voters aren't stupid, but they don't care about fine details. They make their decisions based on broad feelings, and the GOP has had seven years to make those feelings bad. Congress will go more Democrat this time around than last because the GOP has lost too much credibility, just as Democrats lost too much in the 1980s and took a long time to recover.

As for the presidency, any consideration of the polls show that none of the candidates have any kind of lock. The GOP is pretty lucky, first in not having a VP running, because they would have to pick him and he would lose by contamination, and second because the Democrats are still too disorganized to pick a candidate who doesn't look like Bush-lite.

Smokeybehr
11-27-2007, 8:47 AM
Ehh...Bush stepped on the American flag....

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/images/flag.jpg

Maybe he didn't notice or I don't know....but...yeah...

That's not a flag. That's a representation of the flag. There's a huge difference in the way they can be treated.

Res
11-27-2007, 9:04 AM
Haha, man, I didn't vote for Bush before and I'm sure as hell not going to do it now! ;)

Umm,, no one is going to vote for Bush because he isn't running for anything.

dustoff31
11-27-2007, 9:08 AM
Yes... firearm registration, decaying of 2nd amendment rights. Otherwise, he's not so terribly bad.

Everyone should read the quote above and remember it. It fully explains why folks in California are in the situation you find yourselves in regard to guns.

brando
11-27-2007, 9:44 AM
Chickenhawks and jingoist blowhards always seem to forget one thing: actions define patriotism, not words or symbols. I'm so ****ing sick of the polarized koo-aid drinking nuts out there calling anyone who disagrees with the Christian Conservative mindset "un-American."

If you really want to show what a patriot you are, that you put your country before all else, go fight a war you disagree with the Administration over. Not loyalty to party, not loyalty to ideology, but loyalty to your citizens.

MINIsandpirate
11-27-2007, 2:04 PM
the dems are in hot water....every single thing they promised that got them into the posistion they are in has not come to pass....sure its not just the dems in congress/senate...BUT...they do make up the majority....and saying the dems arent responsible is irresponsible....people are running around touting hillary....if we go back in our collective minds a few years back...who was the biggest killer in recent memory of the overall strength of the military...it was clinton....closing down bases....cutting fleet sizes...reduced spending on equipment...many of the things that save us in the field were created during the clinton era but it wasnt deemed prudent so it was never put into production...fact of the matter is the same generals and admirals who hillary is *** kissing to happens to be the same ones bill threw under the bus and used....and when it comes to the war....i can say i have served my time in hell

trashman
11-27-2007, 3:53 PM
t...if we go back in our collective minds a few years back...who was the biggest killer in recent memory of the overall strength of the military...it was clinton....closing down bases....cutting fleet sizes...reduced spending on equipment...many of the things that save us in the field were created during the clinton era but it wasnt deemed prudent so it was never put into production..

Actually, Don Rumsfeld was the most recent active advocate of downsizing the military.

--Neill

brando
11-27-2007, 4:01 PM
Not to mention he inherited a Cold War military in a Post-Cold War world- downsizing was inevitable, regardless of who was president. But yeah, being in the Army during those years truly sucked.

MINIsandpirate
11-27-2007, 7:08 PM
we need that cold war level of strength these days...answer me this...what is more terrifying to witness....a battalion of army ground pounders or a battleship or 2 sitting off your coast...in these days of terror tactics and psychological warfare....i say bring out the big guns...it has just become too damn play nicely anymore...and as for the conventional ground troops...i say pull them out and let the spec-ops boys go play....some of them trained these same idiots back in the cold war days....i say let the spec-ops units handle it by any means necessary

MINIsandpirate
11-27-2007, 7:09 PM
if the terrorists want to play who can scare who the most....they really are barking up the wrong tree

RRangel
11-27-2007, 8:02 PM
Not to mention he inherited a Cold War military in a Post-Cold War world- downsizing was inevitable, regardless of who was president. But yeah, being in the Army during those years truly sucked.

Oh please, it wasn't that long ago that people can't remember. He's part of the reason I left the military. It didn't have to go down the way it did if it weren't for him and his administration.

Bizcuits
11-27-2007, 8:42 PM
While yes this is disrespectful, but so is wearing a flag when you really don't give a rats *** for what it stands for... Which is what most politicians do... I care more about my dog licking it's a$s clean and weather or not it'll lick me afterwards, then I do if Obama has an american flag pin on his collar.

Pin or not, hes still a gun grabbing mulism liberal.

DedEye
11-27-2007, 8:52 PM
we need that cold war level of strength these days...answer me this...what is more terrifying to witness....a battalion of army ground pounders or a battleship or 2 sitting off your coast...in these days of terror tactics and psychological warfare....i say bring out the big guns...it has just become too damn play nicely anymore...and as for the conventional ground troops...i say pull them out and let the spec-ops boys go play....some of them trained these same idiots back in the cold war days....i say let the spec-ops units handle it by any means necessary

Park the battleships off whose coast? That's just one of the problems with fighting a noun and not a country.

Bizcuits
11-27-2007, 9:15 PM
Park the battleships off whose coast? That's just one of the problems with fighting a noun and not a country.


Start a draft, and take on everyone expect england :)

troyus
11-28-2007, 8:27 AM
Umm,, no one is going to vote for Bush because he isn't running for anything.

It was a joke. Sheesh.:rolleyes: