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View Full Version : Legal way to have a 3 round burst or more?


ARRRR-15
11-24-2007, 9:32 AM
I was thinking of this after reading the definition of a machine gun.

12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code.

Now it doesn't say when you would need to pull the trigger(i.e. in between each shot of before each shot).

My question is; what if you designed a rachet system that had to be pulled 3 times then three rounds would be fired? Now you still pull the trigger 3 times for the firearm to manually reload and fire 3 times. I know this is a crazy idea, but just thought I should trow it out there.

CSACANNONEER
11-24-2007, 9:39 AM
It's been done! But, it is considered a "multi-burst trigger activator" and therefore not legal in Ca.

Piper
11-24-2007, 9:48 AM
I can legally throw an 8 round burst of .32 calibers out of my long gun. It's my Ithaca model 37 with folding stock.

ARRRR-15
11-24-2007, 9:50 AM
Roger that. Always looking for new ways to have fun, legally that is.:)

bohoki
11-24-2007, 10:00 AM
some company tried to comply with that logical rule and make a stock with a spring that when the 10/22 recoiled the trigger reseted allowing your finger to actuate the trigger upon rebounding but the atf called it a machine gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8AbTKvykE

chiefcrash
11-24-2007, 10:49 AM
but the atf called it a machine gun


after they had already approved it as not a machinegun...

bwiese
11-24-2007, 10:53 AM
Even if you found a loophole in the state definition there's still the Feds to worry about. So it's moot.

jester
11-24-2007, 11:28 AM
Double ought buck=8 or 9 .32 cal. pellets

bobfried
11-24-2007, 4:13 PM
Bump firing is your friend.

m03
11-24-2007, 7:09 PM
My question is; what if you designed a rachet system that had to be pulled 3 times then three rounds would be fired? Now you still pull the trigger 3 times for the firearm to manually reload and fire 3 times. I know this is a crazy idea, but just thought I should trow it out there.

It's been tried before. Adding extra steps to the process of firing legally turns it into a situation where the 3 pulls (according to your example) equals a single trigger action.

You can set it up to fire once when pulled and again when released. I think there's a BATFE approved mod for the Mini-14 to allow this.

Or you could just move to a free state and purchase a machinegun via Form 4 ;) See subguns.com for details.

jumbopanda
11-25-2007, 12:04 AM
You can set it up to fire once when pulled and again when released. I think there's a BATFE approved mod for the Mini-14 to allow this.


This also happens when you have an out-of-spec disconnector or hammer.


Blackrazor, the Colt Lightning/Taurus Thunderbolt pump action rifle can be fired by holding down the trigger and pumping the action.

bwiese
11-25-2007, 12:06 AM
1) Let's say I take the disconnector out of a pump action shotgun, so that when I cycle the pump and hold down the trigger, the gun fires immediately upon cycling the pump. I've heard this could somehow be construed as a machine gun, simply because I can hold down the trigger (single function) and fire more than one shot, but it seems to me that the "manual reloading" aspect of a pump assures that no pump action firearm can EVER be a machine gun right?

In that case I'm sure the pump becomes the trigger. It still takes one individual action cycle to fire one round. How that action is exactly accomplished is irrelevant.


2) I've been thinking about this whole "single function of the trigger" part of the definition of a machine gun. Does the pull & release constitute two different functions, or one "combined" function. In other words, if I put together a trigger which fired a round upon pulling, and then another round fired upon releasing the trigger, would this be a machine gun?

I'd think so. I think it's a "trigger cycle" - one complete cycle of trigger action, one round fired. With $100K you might have a chance of a win in Fed & state courts. But then Gatling guns only require some fraction of angular rotation per round and they're legal, at least Federally.

What if I put together a firearm with a stacked set of 5-20 triggers, all side by side, but offset slightly, so that the triggers looked like a miniature staircase. As you pulled through this series of triggers, you could touch off 5 (or 20) rounds extremely fast, would this be a "machine gun", since you are technically functioning 5 (or 20) independent triggers?

That's an edge case, probably OK.

Is an old school (Civil War era) gatling gun really a "machine gun" if it uses a manually operated hand crank?

Not sure about CA - prob OK though. Certainly Federally legal - saw a nice new one at the Big Reno Show a couple of years ago in 45/70 for $10+K.

It would, however, be highly illegal to apply a Makita power drill on the crank hub of such a gun. <bseg>

Waingro
11-26-2007, 12:10 PM
This reminds me, I've always had a few lingering questions about machine guns, might as well bring them up here and see what y'all think of them.

1) Let's say I take the disconnector out of a pump action shotgun, so that when I cycle the pump and hold down the trigger, the gun fires immediately upon cycling the pump. I've heard this could somehow be construed as a machine gun, simply because I can hold down the trigger (single function) and fire more than one shot, but it seems to me that the "manual reloading" aspect of a pump assures that no pump action firearm can EVER be a machine gun right?

A buddy of mine got a brand new Rem shotgun and it did that right out of the box. Don't ask me.

bohoki
11-28-2007, 7:30 PM
In that case I'm sure the pump becomes the trigger. It still takes one individual action cycle to fire one round. How that action is exactly accomplished is irrelevant.



I'd think so. I think it's a "trigger cycle" - one complete cycle of trigger action, one round fired. With $100K you might have a chance of a win in Fed & state courts. But then Gatling guns only require some fraction of angular rotation per round and they're legal, at least Federally.



That's an edge case, probably OK.



Not sure about CA - prob OK though. Certainly Federally legal - saw a nice new one at the Big Reno Show a couple of years ago in 45/70 for $10+K.

It would, however, be highly illegal to apply a Makita power drill on the crank hub of such a gun. <bseg>

what if you hook it up to a stationary bicycle