PDA

View Full Version : proper way to sell black powder rifle


cnyankee
11-22-2007, 8:34 PM
I just want to make sure I stay within the law. If I sell a black powder rifle I know a dros isnt needed but is there anything I need to do like get a copy of drivers license, or needs to go through an ffl, or etc....


i did use the search feature but couldnt find the anwser

bobfried
11-22-2007, 9:56 PM
It's just like selling a wheel of finely aged Brie, you could do anything you wish but I don't think an FFL would transfer cheese for you; nor would the future owner want to give you anymore information even if he/she loves Brie more than anything else on earth.

Piper
11-22-2007, 10:53 PM
If it's a rifle or a replica of a rifle made prior to 1898, you can sell it to whom ever you want. If it's a muzzleloader or a replica of a muzzleloader made after 1898, you may have to dros it through ffl, but that's just a guess.

Just a heads up, any blackpowder firearm isn't a firearm until a powder charge and ball with cap is in the barrel, then all laws governing a firearm apply.

Army
11-23-2007, 1:17 AM
If you can buy it drectly from Cabelas...you can sell it directly too.

DutchXpatriot
11-23-2007, 1:25 AM
The key is it does not fire "fixed ammunition", as in cartridges.

As far as identifying an individual who's buying such a muzzle loader from you its never a bad idea to ask for a driver's license. If a person refuses and you don't feel good about it then tell him to f-off. There are lots of legitimate buyers who won't give you grief about CYA. Blackpowder or not, loaded or not, its a firearm in the context of being a deadly weapon. Don't treat it like a wheel of cheese unless it smells real bad and has mold growing on it :)

Dutch

DRM6000
11-23-2007, 1:29 PM
just cash and carry is fine. hell, i've seen them sold at sam's club back east.

Parag
11-23-2007, 8:44 PM
Yup, no government involvement (other than paying the sales tax) needed if it's a muzzle-loading black-powder firearm (rifle, revolver, shotgun, etc). If it can accept a cartridge of any sort from the breech, even if it's a paper black-powder cartridge, then it has to go through the usual PPT, DROS, and 10-day wait.

-- Parag

FortCourageArmory
11-23-2007, 8:56 PM
If it can accept a cartridge of any sort from the breech, even if it's a paper black-powder cartridge, then it has to go through the usual PPT, DROS, and 10-day wait.

-- Parag

Not so. A BP paper cartridge is not considered fixed because it does not contain the primer system. The cap is a seperate component and therefore makes the BP gun exempt from registration or transfer requirements. Just a clarification. Not trying to be an a**hole.

CSACANNONEER
11-24-2007, 10:23 AM
Thanks Tim! I never knew that. I'll have to come by and find out more about BPCs from you.

Scarecrow Repair
11-24-2007, 7:59 PM
A BP paper cartridge is not considered fixed because it does not contain the primer system.

I understand a cap and ball gun is not considered loaded unless it has the cap on it. Does it also have to have powder (and a ball?) loaded? Is it considered loaded if it has no powder but does have the cap?

And is a flintlock pan equivalent to a caplock cap?

And to get really technical, how about a matchlock cord?

Then there is a wheel lock -- no powder or cap involved. Any idea how that one works -- cocked maybe?

FortCourageArmory
11-24-2007, 10:12 PM
I understand a cap and ball gun is not considered loaded unless it has the cap on it. Does it also have to have powder (and a ball?) loaded?

Yes. No powder or ball = Not Loaded.

Is it considered loaded if it has no powder but does have the cap?

See above.

And is a flintlock pan equivalent to a caplock cap?

Yes, the pan of a flintlock would be considered equal to a percussion cap.

And to get really technical, how about a matchlock cord?

The pan is the "priming system", not the cord. No priming powder in the pan = not loaded.

Then there is a wheel lock -- no powder or cap involved.

Not exactly correct. A wheel lock has a pan filled with priming powder like the matchlock or flintlock. The hammer (or "dog" or even "cock" in older language) is placed upon a spring-loaded steel drum. The hammer spring is wound and when the trigger is pulled, the steel drum rotates against the flint on the hammer to produce the spark that ignites the charge in the pan.

Any idea how that one works -- cocked maybe?

Same as the matchlock. No powder in the pan = not loaded.

Watch a History Channel program called "The Story Of The Gun". It has all this info on how ancient firearms worked. The technical info was from a phone call to DOJ. The guy that answered actually knew about black powder guns. Said he did some re-enacting. Take it for what it's worth.

Parag
11-25-2007, 5:22 PM
Thanks - brain-misfire on my part. I forgot that paper-cartridges don't have an attached igniter. Doh!

-- Parag

internet_user
11-25-2007, 5:34 PM
what about pistols?

Scarecrow Repair
11-25-2007, 7:04 PM
Not exactly correct. A wheel lock has a pan filled with priming powder like the wheel lock.

All your answers were about what I expected, but I forgot that a wheellock does have a pan which needs priming powder. Same as a matchlock, same as a flintlock. Doh!

Thanks.

FortCourageArmory
11-25-2007, 7:19 PM
what about pistols?

I don't think there were any matchlock pistols, but the other pre-cartridge firearms systems all had handguns using the wheel lock, flintlock, and percuission ignition systems. So, the same rules apply.

internet_user
11-25-2007, 8:32 PM
I don't think there were any matchlock pistols, but the other pre-cartridge firearms systems all had handguns using the wheel lock, flintlock, and percuission ignition systems. So, the same rules apply.

I was looking at these
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp?id=cat20817

and I am sure these wouldn't be on the CA approved handgun list, so thats why I was wondering. Would these be shipped to your door like someone was saying earlier in the thread?

FortCourageArmory
11-25-2007, 8:42 PM
These are all black powder and as such not considered firearms by either the CA DOJ or the ATF. They are exempt from registration and the "approved" roster. If Cablea's will ship to you, then you can order them direct. I say "if" because sometimes companies get weird ideas about what they can or can't ship to CA. Hope that helps.

Scarecrow Repair
11-25-2007, 10:57 PM
I was looking at these
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp?id=cat20817


If you are going to get any, get the 1858 Remington. Easy to clean and swapping cylinders is a ten second job if you ant to do that, altho you have to be careful about preloaded cylinders with caps, and you have to keep the cylinder pin lubed and clean. The Colts are not so easy to clean and the LeMat is not only expensive, it has a really lousy rammer, plus the ratcheting mechanism is a finicky beast designed to get around patents, I think, and easy to foul.

Plus Dixiegunworks has the Remington conversion cylinder to handle cartridges, altho it is expensive.

ETD1010
11-25-2007, 11:19 PM
I had a shop near here tell me that I had to DROS a Ruger black powder because it had the ability to accept a cylinder to fire .44 magnum. . . never heard of that, but it makes sense to a degree.... just wasn't sure if it was true in the case that it was being sold as a cap and ball.... no extra cylinder....

CSACANNONEER
11-26-2007, 5:44 AM
I had a shop near here tell me that I had to DROS a Ruger black powder because it had the ability to accept a cylinder to fire .44 magnum. . . never heard of that, but it makes sense to a degree.... just wasn't sure if it was true in the case that it was being sold as a cap and ball.... no extra cylinder....

Which shop? I want to know who today's idiot is.

Parag
11-26-2007, 8:44 PM
MidwayUSA also sells black-powder muzzle-loaders - pistols and conversion cylinders. They should have no problems shipping them directly to your door.

-- Parag