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View Full Version : Anybody want a machine gun?


JHC
11-18-2007, 4:26 PM
Some body removed the wrong section on this demill,,, I smell a setup http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84956347

ar15barrels
11-18-2007, 5:13 PM
Some body removed the wrong section on this demill,,, I smell a setup http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84956347

How is that receiver STILL a machinegun?
You certainly can't make it run full auto without a significant amount of re-constructive surgery.
As you would be de-milling the barrel off the receiver and re-building in a new receiver anyways, it should not really matter which specific part they discard when making the 3 cuts as long as you can't simply weld it all back together and get it to work.

bobfried
11-18-2007, 5:14 PM
Yeah well, how are you going to put it back together? Have a place measure it all and milled out the missing portion, than have it welded back in seamlessly?

If someone wanted to make an MG there are much easier ways than milling out solid steel and welding it back onto a cut milled receiver.

JHC
11-18-2007, 5:28 PM
If you have an ak receiver (albeit a partial one) with an intact dreaded 3rd hole you have a machine gun in the eyes of the ATF, it makes as much sense as a shoestring being an MG but them ATF guys are funny that way.

The pics showing the intact sear trip hole in the rail, the third hole, and the fact that it was demilled with its internals still assembled leads me to beleive it's a trap.

chsk9
11-18-2007, 5:30 PM
duct tape... it works every time:eek:

NeoWeird
11-18-2007, 5:38 PM
I saw that yesterday and thought the same thing!

I was looking for a cheap(er) Romanian side folding stock and stumbled upon it. I found it VERY funny because it had the ENTIRE trigger group in tact, minus the trigger :rolleyes:, but was in otherwise complete shape. Add in that it was saw cut, which has ALWAYS been a problem with the ATF and I could smell trouble the second I opened it.

And for you people that think it's any different than any other demill kit, you're wrong. Notice that he cut the magazine area out and that's it, but left in the ends. All you would need to do is get a new trigger, which I believe is the same for FA and SA, and put a magazine in, press the two together and weld on a piece of flat stock the width of the walls. Add in that it's a milled receiver and it is fishy as hell.

I didn't even bother reading about it once I saw the intact trigger group and the saw cuts. That alone was enough to let me know to GTHO ASAP!

ETA: I Also LOVED this part:

In no event shall TJONESOUTDOORS, its officers, directors, employees and/or other representatives be liable for any damages of any kind, including without limitation, direct, indirect, compensatory, special, consequential, punitive, and/or incidental damages related to the products sold

DoctorCheney223
11-18-2007, 6:56 PM
The problem for the seller is the demil. There are rules for demilling a machinegun and IMO, there is not a significant amount of receiver removed. Unless the weapon is torch-cut with three passes at 1/4" of displacement, at least half of the receiver should be missing.

thanks,
Ron

m03
11-18-2007, 9:59 PM
The problem for the seller is the demil. There are rules for demilling a machinegun and IMO, there is not a significant amount of receiver removed. Unless the weapon is torch-cut with three passes at 1/4" of displacement, at least half of the receiver should be missing.

thanks,
Ron

Doesn't that only matter if it was demilled on US soil?

If the missing section of the receiver was never imported (ie, it was discarded, destroyed, etc. prior to importation), then it could not, at any point, be seen as a machinegun in the eyes of the BATFE. It can't even be proven that it was ever a firearm to begin with (there was never a complete receiver for the BATFE to be able to classify).

It would probably even be difficult to prove that the two receiver sections came from the same rifle.

NeoWeird
11-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Doesn't that only matter if it was demilled on US soil?

If the missing section of the receiver was never imported (ie, it was discarded, destroyed, etc. prior to importation), then it could not, at any point, be seen as a machinegun in the eyes of the BATFE. It can't even be proven that it was ever a firearm to begin with (there was never a complete receiver for the BATFE to be able to classify).

It would probably even be difficult to prove that the two receiver sections came from the same rifle.

The problem is that it is easy to see that at one point in time the rear half WAS a machine gun and, in the eyes of the ATF, still IS a machine gun. Even if it was demilled in another country, then it was illegally imported in since it would be considered a machine gun still. Also, I don't think country of demill is a real factor since all the parts kits I know of entered the country demilled as it was, and they had to meet the ATF's ruling of demill in order to be included. If you see some of the HK style rifle demills the person demilling took no consideration of the future builder and it is VERY apparent in the cuts - such as cutting through the triple frame and barrel instead of just cutting a 1/4" in front of the triple frame. I've heard there are quite a few weapons types whose parts kits will never hit commercial sales in America for just that reason - the country demilling didn't care and enough important parts are gone that the profit margins aren't big enough.

In any event, that IS a machine gun in the eyes of the ATF, and it wouldn't matter if the parts came from different rifles - the front portion alone is fine however the rear portion alone or with the front is NOT.

m03
11-18-2007, 11:49 PM
The problem is that it is easy to see that at one point in time the rear half WAS a machine gun and, in the eyes of the ATF, still IS a machine gun. Even if it was demilled in another country, then it was illegally imported in since it would be considered a machine gun still.

I'd like to see an official letter stating this.

It may be easy to see, but it's certainly not proveable. They could be receiver sections from metal airsoft rifles, for all it matters. There's nothing proving their existance as an actual firearm prior to importation.

Of course, to muddy those waters, the Yunker airsoft rifles were judged to be machineguns since they entered the US with a complete AKM receiver ;)


Also, I don't think country of demill is a real factor since all the parts kits I know of entered the country demilled as it was, and they had to meet the ATF's ruling of demill in order to be included.

Depends. From the pics of the Romanian AKs inside cargo containers that I saw back in 2004, I gather that those typically weren't demilled until they hit the U.S. shores. If that's the case with this collection of parts, then yes, the seller has a problem.


In any event, that IS a machine gun in the eyes of the ATF, and it wouldn't matter if the parts came from different rifles - the front portion alone is fine however the rear portion alone or with the front is NOT.

Again, I think it depends. If it was demilled prior to importation, then I don't see how the BATFE could say it is such, since it never existed in a state that could be judged as a machinegun according to the BATFE prior to passing into their "jurisdiction".

For hypothetical fun, let's say that your a steel importer and you happen to have melted down 1 ton of intact Type-III AK receivers and turned them into a solid block of steel prior to importing your stock. Since these were not properly torch-cut prior to being melted down and subsequently imported, did you just commit multiple felonies by importing a single 1-ton block of steel? If not, how about if I drilled a magical third-hole into the side of this block of steel?

Anybody got a link to an official BATFE letter to clarify?

fal_762x51
11-18-2007, 11:50 PM
I see three holes, not a good sign.

NeoWeird
11-19-2007, 1:09 AM
m03, you are missing a HUGE part of what's wrong. The ATF doesn't care if it's a complete firearm or not in the same way that owning a FA M16 selector is considered a MG in California. There is a reason that EVERY AK parts kit you see has a VERY heavy slented torch cut that goes from in front of the mag release to over the trigger guard - it keeps the trigger guard and magazine release intact while destroying the trigger group's pin location all in one step. If they didn't need to destroy the pin location it would just be a straight cut up to save time, money, frustration, etc. The ATF has also ruled that receivers must be TORCH cut or some other form of cutting that destroys the surronding metal. Back a while ago there was a case where several types of MGs, Stens in particular if I remember right, where band saw cut and the ATF had approved them. They then found out later that the guns would functions, without alteration, by simply installing the trigger group to hold the metal tubing together. They recalled ALL the parts kits, including those that were already sold to private citizens, and declared them MGs. It was at this point that their stance changed on what was acceptable as being torch cut. Now there is nothing preventing you from cleaning up receiver sections and filling in the gaps with weld or new steel; but the surrounding area must be destroyed.

I don't have the time to go digging through the ATF's site, and all sorts of forum backlogs to find the documentation. I know it and just about anyone else who has dealt with these types of items knows it, which is why the OP made a joke topic to bring a giggle to everyone. I'm sorry if you didn't get it or think otherwise but it is the truth. Whether that item is a fully functional receiver or a 'piece' of steel is irrelevant - it has the compeleted FA trigger group in a receiver, whether partial or not, and the ATF views that as an MG. It was either imported by the proper people and insufficently demilled to the point where the ATF STILL views it as an MG and it can not pass on to civilian hands or it was improperly demilled outside the country and illegally demilled as the ATF still views it as a machine gun and it can not pass into civilian hands.

No matter how it happened or how you look at it, it's bad ju-ju and it smells of either a setup or a shady dealer just asking to have his customer logs gone over by JBTs; and especially adding in the wording of his disclaimer it sounds like a VERY bad setup. In any event, everyone needs to stay away from that thing.

ETA: It's also very obvious the seller was aware. The main selling point was the under folding stock but the title never leads you to know that it's for a milled receiver and there are about a dozen pictures and maybe two show the stock, one shows the barrel but only to show that the front of the magazine well is intact, and the rest are various angles of the trigger group, with the trigger removed but the hammer set back to prove the auto sear is functioning, and any angle needed to show that the FA group is intact minus the common trigger. The seller knew EXACTLY what he was doing, either as a shady dealer or as a setup.

sen24
11-19-2007, 9:11 AM
so if you owned one of those old ATF approved cut receivers before they declared them needed to be torch cut, they immediately became machineguns overnight? so any potential demill done from a few years back is contraband? there must be thousands of these that were legally cut in their time period. just trying to understand.

NeoWeird
11-19-2007, 4:49 PM
so if you owned one of those old ATF approved cut receivers before they declared them needed to be torch cut, they immediately became machineguns overnight? so any potential demill done from a few years back is contraband? there must be thousands of these that were legally cut in their time period. just trying to understand.

Well the real issue came around after many countries started to demilitarize their WWII surplus. Even if an old Enfield parts kit was around it wouldn't really matter since it was legally transferable at the time even as a full firearm. Same thing goes for the MGs until the laws started to change. It was when the laws regarding MGs started to change that ex-MG parts kits became a problem. At the time there was talk about what constitutes an MG and what doesn't. The ATF stated that there were certain criteria that needed to be met in order for a once MG to be no longer an MG and the main point was the receiver had to be cut into three or more pieces with guidlines as to the size of pieces, cut placement, etc. I am pretty sure it was either a Sten or other similar SMG that had it's receiver cut with a bandsaw by an importer and the parts kit were sold to civilians with perfectlly good intentions. It was after the fact that it was realized that the bandsaw cuts were so narrow and so clean that the receiver could still ****ion when the trigger group was installed (and by function I mean fire and continue to fire). This is why they declared that it must TORCH cut to sufficently destroy the surrounding metal and the MG features of the receiver. I see examples from time to time on Gunbroker of people who have cleaned up torched cut receivers to the point where they nearly mesh perfectly, so there is no real loss in functionality outside of the auto sear with these kits; the last was a DP-28 that was so clean you could only tell it was a demill on ONE side of the gun, and this was without refinishing of any kind. Bandsaw blades can be very narrow, and most probably run below .1"; if you took a quarter inch of rearward travel out of most SMGs you probably wouldn't effect functionality at all. I am getting off topic though.

The ATF contacted the importer and received a list of all purchasers and as well as starting a recall of the aprts kit. The AT themselves began to investigate as to whether the parts were being used illegally or not. Most by phone calls but some by actual visits. It's a similar issue as to the old open bolt MACs that could be turned full auto with a nickle or the first editions of Walther P22s that hit California. They are still out there, and while not illegal, they are very closely watched for. I remember last year reading about a gun on arfcom who got contact by the ATF for a parts kit he had purchased some years before for a friend. Apparently the ATF got wind of a shaddy dealer and was tracking down possible MGs that were being sold (apparently the dealer didn't demill properly, possibly even intentionally for friends, and the ATF was not happy). In any event, the guy let the ATF know that he had no MG parts, only those parts which were interchanble with a legal semi-auto were used and all other parts were destroyed in the demill process or thrown away. That seemed to be sufficient for them.

It's kind of like the HK G3 kits that Interordnance used to have (what happened to them?) - They came with the FA trigger pack but only a SMALL bit of the reciever and it was only because the barrel trunion was welded to it. FA parts, to the ATF, are no big deal because they have their legal purpose. It's the receiver, or any part of it which could be manipulated to be a MG receiver, that they are after. That receiver chunk, even if it was just a 2" square piece with no stock or barrel trunion, is STILL an MG in the ATFs eyes. Drill a giant hole that destroys the trigger group holes and it's ok once again. Still, destroying evidence doesn't make you innocent and it would easy to prove that it was receiver as an MG and you owned it for any period of time.

ETA: I talk too much. I started to ramble and got lost in thought. I hope that answered the question.