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Waingro
11-14-2007, 1:45 AM
A guy at my work carries around a rifle in his trunk at all times. He carries it unloaded with ammo in the center console.

I asked him "Why do you carry a rifle in your trunk"

His reply was "Because legally I can't carry a handgun in my glovebox"

I started laughing and I thought about it for a while - I have an older pump shotgun that I would like to carry around in my trunk. I have searched here - there is so much information it is overwhelming.

-Every day to work I pass by numerious schools - would that be a problem?
-It has to be in a "locked container" - I read here that the trunk is considered a locked container - is this true or does it have to be in a case?
-Does it need to have a trigger lock on it?
-Would I need to carry around the papers with it? I cannot find my copy - where could I get another copy to prove the gun is mine?
-Are police aware this is legal for citizens to do? What would be the best method of speaking to a police officer if I am stopped? Alert him of the gun in my trunk or say nothing?

The only places that comes to mind of where not to bring it is airports.

Can someone fill me in with the details?

hitman13
11-14-2007, 1:53 AM
carry it unloaded in the trunk or passenger area.
that is all

and i am unsure about the school zone, but i carry my truck gun through shool zones and really dont care, im not going to the school or anything....

DedEye
11-14-2007, 2:00 AM
A guy at my work carries around a rifle in his trunk at all times. He carries it unloaded with ammo in the center console.

I asked him "Why do you carry a rifle in your trunk"

His reply was "Because legally I can't carry a handgun in my glovebox"

I started laughing and I thought about it for a while - I have an older pump shotgun that I would like to carry around in my trunk. I have searched here - there is so much information it is overwhelming.

-Every day to work I pass by numerious schools - would that be a problem?
-It has to be in a "locked container" - I read here that the trunk is considered a locked container - is this true or does it have to be in a case?
-Does it need to have a trigger lock on it?
-Would I need to carry around the papers with it? I cannot find my copy - where could I get another copy to prove the gun is mine?
-Are police aware this is legal for citizens to do? What would be the best method of speaking to a police officer if I am stopped? Alert him of the gun in my trunk or say nothing?

The only places that comes to mind of where not to bring it is airports.

Can someone fill me in with the details?

Only handguns must be in a locked container, you can carry your shotgun in plain view on your backseat as far as the law cares, as long as there is no ammo in it or physically attached to it. It also does not need a trigger lock. Keep the shotgun in your backseat in a softcase if you want and keep shells in your center console, it's legal.

I'm fairly sure that the safe passage laws allow you to drive through school zones with a firearm without problems as well. As far as if a cop asks if you have a gun in your vehicle, just tell him that you have nothing illegal in your vehicle and that's all your willing to say.

bwiese
11-14-2007, 2:09 AM
A guy at my work carries around a rifle in his trunk at all times. He carries it unloaded with ammo in the center console.

I asked him "Why do you carry a rifle in your trunk?"

His reply was "Because legally I can't carry a handgun in my glovebox!"

Whoa, someone stole (well, paraphrased) my slogan!

Still gotta put that on a Calguns T-shirt.

Waingro
11-14-2007, 3:29 AM
Wow, thanks guys, quick responses - you guys are on top of your game, so keeping it in the truck is okay as long as the ammo is not near the gun. I also just realized that my rear seat folds down into my trunk so I have access from the cab to my trunk. I do not think this would be a problem.

I noticed while searching you have "OOL" documentation stating that you are complying with the law for AR-15 rifles. Can anyone direct me to a printout of any kind of documentation I could show an officer to show that I am carrying this shotgun in my trunk legally?

Do I need to keep my registration papers for the shotgun with the shotgun when I am carrying it in my trunk?

DedEye
11-14-2007, 4:52 AM
Wow, thanks guys, quick responses - you guys are on top of your game, so keeping it in the truck is okay as long as the ammo is not near the gun. I also just realized that my rear seat folds down into my trunk so I have access from the cab to my trunk. I do not think this would be a problem.

I noticed while searching you have "OOL" documentation stating that you are complying with the law for AR-15 rifles. Can anyone direct me to a printout of any kind of documentation I could show an officer to show that I am carrying this shotgun in my trunk legally?

Do I need to keep my registration papers for the shotgun with the shotgun when I am carrying it in my trunk?

What registration papers? I'm guessing you're referring to the DROS. Long guns aren't registered in California and there's nothing you need to keep with your shotgun to prove that it's yours.

This sitehttp://ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php has the info you need about traveling with firearms in California. Just print up the penal code with the relevant section to firearms transportation if you're that worried.

Glock22Fan
11-14-2007, 8:26 AM
This keeping the ammo not attached to the shotgun/rifle legend has been struck down by the courts. Machtinger's book (Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail) shows a picture of a shotgun with an elastic ammo strap on the stock, and clearly says that this is legal.

The relevant case is: People v. Clark, 45 Cal. App. 4th 1147 (1996) (California Official Reports):

"The court held that the trial court committed reversible error in instructing that "[a] shotgun is deemed to be 'loaded' when there is an unexpended shell . . . in, or attached in any manner to, the shotgun," a definition derived from Pen. Code, § 12031, subd. (g). Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood. Even if Pen. Code, § 12031, subd. (g), was applicable, the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. And, to the extent an ambiguity existed, the construction more favorable to defendant should be adopted."

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=75238&highlight=clark

4 Brigada
11-14-2007, 8:38 AM
A guy at my work carries around a rifle in his trunk at all times. He carries it unloaded with ammo in the center console.


In the company I used to work for that would be grounds for instant termination. No weapons (not only firearms) were allowed on campus, even in you car locked complaint with all of CA and federal laws. I always ask whats the difference between a firearm and a weapon. I think it should be by the way its employed, cause a aluminum baseball bat is just a bat until someone uses it to bash a head in. Then its a weapon. Funny

mblat
11-14-2007, 9:46 AM
This keeping the ammo not attached to the shotgun/rifle legend has been struck down by the courts. Machtinger's book (Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail) shows a picture of a shotgun with an elastic ammo strap on the stock, and clearly says that this is legal.

The relevant case is: People v. Clark, 45 Cal. App. 4th 1147 (1996) (California Official Reports):

"The court held that the trial court committed reversible error in instructing that "[a] shotgun is deemed to be 'loaded' when there is an unexpended shell . . . in, or attached in any manner to, the shotgun," a definition derived from Pen. Code, § 12031, subd. (g). Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood. Even if Pen. Code, § 12031, subd. (g), was applicable, the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. And, to the extent an ambiguity existed, the construction more favorable to defendant should be adopted."

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=75238&highlight=clark


You know that is interesting. Does loaded, but not chambered cartridge in a position to be fired? Not advocating anything, but still..... From that quote it seems that the answer is no. However it is loaded as commonly understood.

Kestryll
11-14-2007, 9:52 AM
So if I'm understanding this right I can mount a rifle/shotgun rack below the rear window of my extra cab pickup and put a shotgun with rounds in the sidesaddle or buttstock ammo strap and that is legal.

Is that correct?

Glock22Fan
11-14-2007, 10:08 AM
So if I'm understanding this right I can mount a rifle/shotgun rack below the rear window of my extra cab pickup and put a shotgun with rounds in the sidesaddle or buttstock ammo strap and that is legal.

Is that correct?

IANAL, so I'd hate to suggest that you do this, but my layman's understanding is that it is legal, even though it might not be wise. My biggest fear would be the phobia that the (California) public has concerning guns in sight, and the fact that not all LEO's would know that this is legal. Hey, it isn't just LEO's, it is obvious from the posts on this board that many of our own group do not clearly understand this situation, and many have not read People v. Clark.

thefinger
11-14-2007, 11:16 AM
So if I'm understanding this right I can mount a rifle/shotgun rack below the rear window of my extra cab pickup and put a shotgun with rounds in the sidesaddle or buttstock ammo strap and that is legal.

Is that correct?


Based on the information that I've read in the numerous "trunk gun" threads that have been in the rifleman's forum before, I'd say its legal. However, the possible problem with something like that is that there doesn't seem to be an exact definition of "loaded" to go on. I think that 99.99% of gun-owners would understand that a few shells in the sidesaddle doesn't constitute a loaded gun, but a smooth-talking anti-gunner DA might decide to go after you for the side-saddle thing. If you have a sling that can hold a few shells, that might be a little safer.

aplinker
11-14-2007, 12:12 PM
You need to lock it in the rack through a school zone. Federal Law requirement.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922(q).html

Also keep in mind having it on a college campus or college buildings area at all (even locked up) is apparently not allowed.

dondo
11-14-2007, 12:17 PM
KESTRYLL brings up a good and if I may add sexy point. I have a crew cab chevy truck. A rack mounted under the rear window would be behind the rear seats and out of view. That is a great way to go. Although I could just carry it in a case back there but a rack is so sexed up I might have to take a cold shower. I'll take some pics if I do it. Not the shower you perverts.The rack.

sloguy
11-14-2007, 12:39 PM
KESTRYLL brings up a good and if I may add sexy point. I have a crew cab chevy truck. A rack mounted under the rear window would be behind the rear seats and out of view. That is a great way to go. Although I could just carry it in a case back there but a rack is so sexed up I might have to take a cold shower. I'll take some pics if I do it. Not the shower you perverts.The rack.

what about a shotgun rack in the shower?

PanzerAce
11-14-2007, 1:03 PM
rifle rack would be better. AKs can stand up to the water better than can a shotgun I'm betting.

Waingro
11-14-2007, 1:15 PM
You need to lock it in the rack through a school zone. Federal Law requirement.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922(q).html

Also keep in mind having it on a college campus or college buildings area at all (even locked up) is apparently not allowed.

So in a locked trunk it would be illegal in a school zone? Is this speaking of public colleges only? Now it is getting confusing.

N6ATF
11-14-2007, 1:23 PM
http://www.cabelas.com/hprod-1/0012765.shtml

aplinker
11-14-2007, 2:05 PM
By Federal law it needs to be locked up, either on a rack, a case or in the trunk, and this means all firearms.

There are no exemptions on a college campus, unless you have a CCW, for any guns (even locked up).

So in a locked trunk it would be illegal in a school zone? Is this speaking of public colleges only? Now it is getting confusing.

AJAX22
11-14-2007, 2:53 PM
By Federal law it needs to be locked up, either on a rack, a case or in the trunk, and this means all firearms.

There are no exemptions on a college campus, unless you have a CCW, for any guns (even locked up).

I think you mgiht be wrong on this ucla...

IIRC the federal law specifically exempts secondary schools and college institutions from the locked container requirement (and to those who are reading this NO I don't have that I take to school)

Aditionally the state law with regard to having guns on college campus would seem to specifically refer to carying a concealed weapon or a pistol, not a long gun.

I believe it might be legal (although a really bad idea) to open cary a long gun on college campuses. and I'm almost positive that it is legal to keep a unloaded long gun in your car or truck when on a college campus.

Librarian
11-14-2007, 3:55 PM
I think you mgiht be wrong on this ucla...

IIRC the federal law specifically exempts secondary schools and college institutions from the locked container requirement (and to those who are reading this NO I don't have that I take to school)

Aditionally the state law with regard to having guns on college campus would seem to specifically refer to carying a concealed weapon or a pistol, not a long gun.

I believe it might be legal (although a really bad idea) to open cary a long gun on college campuses. and I'm almost positive that it is legal to keep a unloaded long gun in your car or truck when on a college campus.
I think uclaplinker has it correct: from his link to 18 usc 922 (q)
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

California says 626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.

(e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall
apply:
(1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public
or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1
to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the
grounds of the public or private school.
(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
Section 12001.

(h) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or
buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research,
or administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.
(i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings
owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or
administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
one, two, or three years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.So, apparently California does not care much about long guns in school zones (but cares a lot about firearms on college campuses), while Feds want them locked. Both want them unloaded for transport.

AJAX22
11-14-2007, 4:48 PM
I think uclaplinker has it correct: from his link to 18 usc 922 (q)

California says So, apparently California does not care much about long guns in school zones (but cares a lot about firearms on college campuses), while Feds want them locked. Both want them unloaded for transport.

I agree thats what the statute says...

but college isn't a elementery or secondary school, its a college

a school zone is defined under title 18,921.26

(25) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.


I think it's illigal for highschool or jr. high or even college prep school, but college is not secondary education. its post secondary education isn't it?

Librarian
11-14-2007, 8:36 PM
626.9 (h) and (i) don't say 'school zone' - they explicitly say "the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college", which is why I posted the whole paragraphs.

That those paragraphs are under "the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995" doesn't over ride the exact language.

AJAX22
11-14-2007, 9:59 PM
626.9 (h) and (i) don't say 'school zone' - they explicitly say "the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college", which is why I posted the whole paragraphs.

That those paragraphs are under "the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995" doesn't over ride the exact language.

I see what you mean... I don't know if that prohibition covers firearms in your car, there is no mention of parkinglots or parking structures in the passage.

Waingro
11-14-2007, 10:31 PM
My wife goes to private college productions, plays, musicals, and all the fun stuff I like to do.:rolleyes: Does that mean I would have to remove the shotgun from the trunk before going?

I should elaborate, my wife is disabled and has a hard time waking, we have a parking pass, we get to park on the USC campus - still not the best area however.

Librarian
11-15-2007, 12:16 AM
My wife goes to private college productions, plays, musicals, and all the fun stuff I like to do.:rolleyes: Does that mean I would have to remove the shotgun from the trunk before going?

I should elaborate, my wife is disabled and has a hard time waking, we have a parking pass, we get to park on the USC campus - still not the best area however.

I would think it does mean that.

That being said, what's the risk of being discovered? If one were a student or employee, the exposure is pretty big, and 2, 3 or 4 years in the state pen looks nasty. State pen still looks nasty if you're on campus just two evenings a month, but I'd guess the difference between 2 times and 15-25 times in a month might be worth considering.

My wife does in fact work at a college, and I just spent 4 years as a student - in neither of our combined 20 or so school years of experience has one of our cars been stopped or involved with campus police in any way.

Note also that the restrictions do not apply to CCW holders; if we had a rational CCW issuance policy in the whole state, much of this problem would never present itself.

Waingro
11-15-2007, 12:18 PM
I would think it does mean that.

That being said, what's the risk of being discovered? If one were a student or employee, the exposure is pretty big, and 2, 3 or 4 years in the state pen looks nasty. State pen still looks nasty if you're on campus just two evenings a month, but I'd guess the difference between 2 times and 15-25 times in a month might be worth considering.

My wife does in fact work at a college, and I just spent 4 years as a student - in neither of our combined 20 or so school years of experience has one of our cars been stopped or involved with campus police in any way.

Note also that the restrictions do not apply to CCW holders; if we had a rational CCW issuance policy in the whole state, much of this problem would never present itself.

Well chances are there is a very small percentage of me ever being searched by police, I am 32 now and have never had an incident. I am not gonna to illegally concealed carry or anything illegal.

aplinker
11-15-2007, 4:30 PM
I went over this a bunch of times. I realize this time I listed the conclusion without the reasoning, but Librarian added the relevant passages.

I don't see any exemptions for college campuses to having them in a car, unless you read possession as only on your person. This is potentially a big problem, as any place that's considered a college building (think satellite buildings where classes are held) are restricted. I think grounds would also consider parking lots and roads within campus.

Federal law requires long guns locked up, too. It's odd there's so much conflict between CA and Fed, in the opposite way.

I see what you mean... I don't know if that prohibition covers firearms in your car, there is no mention of parkinglots or parking structures in the passage.

AJAX22
11-15-2007, 4:46 PM
I'll concede that ucla appears to be correct and that I am probably wrong on this.... but I'm still going to try to dig up a definition of posession, its possible that there may be a loophole.

No matter what, it doesn't look like a good idea... but since we've agreed that the school zone prohibition does not apply to colleges. does this mean that I don't have to park 1000 feet away from campus when I park on a public street?

FreedomIsNotFree
11-16-2007, 1:53 PM
One additional point worth mentioning...

Dont forget the intent factor. They must prove that you knew it was a school zone.

Just be sure you dont tell on yourself....its similar to the magazine ban.

Shotgun Man
11-16-2007, 2:15 PM
One additional point worth mentioning...

Dont forget the intent factor. They must prove that you knew it was a school zone.

Just be sure you dont tell on yourself....its similar to the magazine ban.

Smart advice. It might work, but don't count on it. It could be strict liability here.

I'm not a lawyer, no legal advice here.

Maddog5150
11-16-2007, 3:54 PM
I love this question. I need to get a truck gun but my vehicle just doesnt have a convenient place to put the firearm.


-Every day to work I pass by numerious schools - would that be a problem?

I believe if your just passing your fine. I was told by an instructor on CCW that if you have a shotgun in your vehicle near a school and you stop the vehicle then you can get in trouble. I would like to hear more about this from people here who know more about the law than I.

-It has to be in a "locked container" - I read here that the trunk is considered a locked container - is this true or does it have to be in a case?
Legally no but depending on where you live you need to ask yourself if its just worth the hassle.

-Does it need to have a trigger lock on it? trigger and cable locks are not considered locked containers i believe.
-Would I need to carry around the papers with it? I cannot find my copy - where could I get another copy to prove the gun is mine? CYA is always important in this sue happy commie state.
-Are police aware this is legal for citizens to do?
Highly doubt it. The police officers here on this board are but they are a different breed all together. My best friend just graduated form the academy a few months back and was telling me all the things about firearms laws they DONT tell you about. Especially about the legally armed citizen.
What would be the best method of speaking to a police officer if I am stopped? Alert him of the gun in my trunk or say nothing?
See above statement. Are you breaking the law? You have constitutional rights to what you say and for search and seizure. More often than you would think someone walks in and tells me that they were kissing pavement because they informed an LEO about a firearm. Their gun got taken away and they were eventually let go. They were told by LE that they needed the original receipt because the long gun wasnt registered and that they were lucky they wernt getting arrested for their unregistered shotgun or rifle :rolleyes:
Dont get me wrong. LEO have a tough job with alot of dirtbags out there so those who just arnt comfortable around firearms might jump the gun when not needed (NO PUN INTENDED). Granted the LEO here might respectfully disagree but I firmly believe that they are a different breed all together. They shoot on a regular basis and probably dont have qualms about john Q public being armed.