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Harbinger
11-12-2007, 3:55 PM
*** UPDATE *** Management at Imbert & Smithers refunded me $15. I consider this issue resolved. Thank you to everyone for their input.

I was just at Imbert & Smithers in San Carlos for a PPT (face to face Pistol purchase with another Calgunner) and was charged $50 for the transaction. I balked at the price and asked if they know it wasn't legal. The salesman stated that he wouldn't do PPTs if he couldn't charge $25 on top of the DROS. I told him that refusing PPTs was also illegal, but unfortunately I didn't have my trusty penal code book with me.

I suppose I'll print out the applicable code and FAQ from the DOJ website and bring them in when I pick up the pistol. Hopefully I can get a $15 refund, as the total allowable price is $35 for PPT.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8
http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/code/getcode.html?file=./pen/12001-13000/12070-12086

What recourse do I have if they won't budge on the fees? Do I call the DOJ?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

jandmtv
11-12-2007, 3:59 PM
wow, really? that the most ridiculous thing ive heard. a gun store willfully breaking the law to turn a bigger profit..... contact the doj, im sure this isnt the first time they have done that.

jandmtv
11-12-2007, 4:04 PM
im sure they know the law, they didnt get to be a ffl dealer by not knowing the law, its seems to be more of a "i know what the law sais but i dont care, its my store and i can do as i please" situation to me

Harbinger
11-12-2007, 4:05 PM
I think I'm willing to give him a second chance.

I think jandmtv is right, though. This CAN'T be the first time they've done this....

ETA: Just read your post, though. You're right, they SHOULD and most likely DO know the law. Why should I allow them a second chance?

Mike

Harbinger
11-12-2007, 4:19 PM
Good point... plus I don't want to burn any bridges. I may need these guys some time in the future.

:Angel_anim:

One more chance, then I'll drop a dime.


Mike

jandmtv
11-12-2007, 4:20 PM
all the instances you speak of fall under grey line, besides the sks, this is different, i cant think of any ffl that doesnt know the doj rates by heart!


not neccesarily.i know a (older guy that reminds me of a mean grandpa)guy who does it for fun. he brought in a listed aw for guy.doj showed up and they made him send it back. he didn't think it was because it was a 9mm.or take for instance dealers who won't touch oll or says they are illigal.what about the thread were a dealer said the sks with a pipe on the end was a gernade launcher.all misimformed


EDIT: im not saying dont give them a 2nd chance, im just saying they know damn well what they are doing is illegal.

rkt88edmo
11-12-2007, 4:20 PM
If you don't like it go somewhere else.

This thread pops up about once every 4 months, here is a recent one.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=38935

Do you think $5 or $10 compensates the FFL fairly for the time they spent on your PPT?

ETA, here are some others:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=28014
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=43181

When I did notary work, we always had to be specific about what we charged for notary acts and what was extra because of the state mandated maximum fees. There were no restrictions on how much to charge over all, so it all becomes a bit of a name game. As you can read, they can make up any fee they want to, storage, appearance, facility, paperwork, processing, booger picking, etc.

Harbinger
11-12-2007, 4:26 PM
ETA: My bad, the link you sent was for another PPT. However, I think it's FANTASTIC that a thread like this pops up often. If we don't tell each other who's over-charging, how can we know not to drive 45mi like I did today?

This particular transaction was a PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFER, FACE TO FACE. There is California PENAL CODE that specifically forbids charging more than $10 in addition to the $25 DROS. Read the first link below. It makes things crystal clear:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8
http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/code/getcode.html?file=./pen/12001-13000/12070-12086

I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with dealers charging any amount they want on transfers, but face-to-face PPT is a whole different ball of wax.

It doesn't matter what you or I think an FFL should be charging, in this situation.

Mike

Harbinger
11-12-2007, 4:27 PM
From http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8 :

I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
2. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

(PC section 12072(d))

thedrickel
11-12-2007, 4:36 PM
Yes, we know that is they law, they know that is the law, but for some reason they insist on breaking it and risking their license for less than 20$. :confused:

What is the penalty specified in the penal code for this offense? We could send a LEO in to do a PPT and then said LEO could get their attention with the appropriate penal code.

Harbinger
11-12-2007, 4:40 PM
What is the penalty specified in the penal code for this offense? We could send a LEO in to do a PPT and then said LEO could get their attention with the appropriate penal code.

According to 12082. (d) of the California Penal code, the dealer could be charged with a misdemeanor.

I'm not out to smear a dealer here. I want to give him a second chance... and warn the rest of you that I&S may attempt to break the law when you use them for PPT. If this is a redundant thread rkt88edmo, please lock it now.

Mike

rkt88edmo
11-12-2007, 4:43 PM
ack you're right, reading comprehension is low today.

Of the 5 FFLs I've used in the last few years 3 want more than $35 for PPT, I think it is fairly widespread.

jandmtv
11-12-2007, 4:46 PM
and fairly illegal, if we are forced to follow the law, so should they. they are no better than us.

timmy8151
11-12-2007, 4:50 PM
Imbert & Smithers did the same thing to a guy that bought a Mini 14 from me. The guy didnt make a big deal so we continued with the transaction. Even though Imbert is 5 minutes from my house I will NEVER do business with them again. While I'm not a big fan of snitching, I really think something needs to be done about this.

devjunk762
11-12-2007, 4:51 PM
There's a reason the PPT fee is mandated, controlled, and low- mainly because they (legislature) want to ensure that people LEGALLY transfer firearms without wincing at the prices. Can you imagine if stores could arbitrarily charge whatever they wanted to for PPT fees?

Additionally, another rational for controlling PPT fees is that the FFL is making their living from selling firearms to people and NOT from simply performing PPT transactions. Performing PPT functions as an FFL is part of the function of BEING an FFL in this state- it sucks, it takes time, and is a big headache, but that's the job.

However, an FFL can REFUSE to conduct a PPT for a handgun if they normally don't deal in handguns. This is the reason why Big 5 won't perform a handgun PPT for you...

I feel for all CA FFLs, and they do deserve our support to keep them in business- it's a tough business. But, on the other hand, what this guy did was illegal and he should "fix the issue". I would alert him to the penal code, and ask him if he'd like to give you a refund for the excess amount because "this was an honest mistake."

Morales
11-12-2007, 5:32 PM
Lets look at this from the other side, please. When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour. In that time, the employee may not make any sales, nor assist any other customers in any meaningful way. He must also fill out a great deal of paper work, some of which he will have to do after you leave. After all of it, the store will make almost no money for all of his time, and if he is working on commission, then he will miss making a sale for his store and himself for as long as it takes to finish you up. Not only that, but if the store is understaffed, then the customers who went there to buy something that the store can actually profit from have to wait until your business is finished. Think of how many people who came to buy something roll their eyes and walk out when they see the guy ahead of them tell the clerk "I'm here to do a PPT." I've seen employees at gun stores argue over who has to do the PPT, it gets bitter sometimes. Its not uncommon for one employee to say this to another right in front of a customer: "I did the last one, you do this one." or even better "You owe me lunch, do this and we'll call it even." I understand you don't want to spend a lot of money, hence you're buying a used gun, but understand that YOU have to go through about 1/10 th the effort that the poor bastard guy behind the counter does. What it boils down to is that there is nothing in it for anyone but you when you do a PPT. And I think stores should be able to charge more.

jandmtv
11-12-2007, 5:39 PM
this is not a matter of wheather they should be able to charge more or not, its a matter of they are now allowed to charge more by law, so they shouldnt, but still do, and at the same time, they preach to us about how they know the law in and out, god forbid you ask them a question about the legality of something that is.

timmy8151
11-12-2007, 5:44 PM
When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour

Most places I've been to take no more than a half hour. The only exception was Target Masters (which took nearly a 1.5 hours).

Solidmch
11-12-2007, 5:48 PM
Thats why I like going to Irvington Arms. Those guys are great. I went to a ffl in Castro Valley (NOT CV GUNS). He refused to do it. Then told me he would do it for 10% of the MSRP of the gun. I left. I dont want to do business with guys like that. I dont need any company or gun shop.

wayoutwest
11-12-2007, 5:49 PM
Lets look at this from the other side, please. When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour. In that time, the employee may not make any sales, nor assist any other customers in any meaningful way. He must also fill out a great deal of paper work, some of which he will have to do after you leave. After all of it, the store will make almost no money for all of his time, and if he is working on commission, then he will miss making a sale for his store and himself for as long as it takes to finish you up. Not only that, but if the store is understaffed, then the customers who went there to buy something that the store can actually profit from have to wait until your business is finished. Think of how many people who came to buy something roll their eyes and walk out when they see the guy ahead of them tell the clerk "I'm here to do a PPT." I've seen employees at gun stores argue over who has to do the PPT, it gets bitter sometimes. Its not uncommon for one employee to say this to another right in front of a customer: "I did the last one, you do this one." or even better "You owe me lunch, do this and we'll call it even." I understand you don't want to spend a lot of money, hence you're buying a used gun, but understand that YOU have to go through about 1/10 th the effort that the poor bastard guy behind the counter does. What it boils down to is that there is nothing in it for anyone but you when you do a PPT. And I think stores should be able to charge more.

Maybe if your at Big 5, but the regular shops should be able to process it in less than 15, probably 10 if you can fill out the paperwork quickly. At least in my experience, in both Fremont and Martinez, quick and easy. TM in Milpitas have their own forms which adds to the time it takes to process them.

thedrickel
11-12-2007, 6:02 PM
Yep, I've never had a PPT take longer than 15 minutes.

FYI - peninsula/SF guys, Jackson Arms will no longer transfer anything that looks like an AK. Owner flipped his lid and they won't do them any more, even though I did an NDS3 build there a few months ago. City Arms will do it if there is no pistol grip, whether or not there is a mag-lock. Guess they don't understand the difference between their fixed-mag AR on the wall and my fixed-mag AK on the counter (none). :rolleyes:

But I am more PO'd that Jackson wouldn't do it. They'll let me shoot it there cause they know it's legal, yet they won't do the legally mandated PPT. I guess my money is green enough for range fees, targets and ammo but not for a stinkin PPT.

emc002
11-12-2007, 6:03 PM
Most places I've been to take no more than a half hour. The only exception was Target Masters (which took nearly a 1.5 hours).

A fellow CalGunner & I just traded 3 guns and completed all 3 PPTs in less than 30 minutes...

mike452
11-12-2007, 7:14 PM
Do I call the DOJ?


I would give DOJ a call and never use them again.

Some people believe they deserve more than others even if breaking the law.
Price gouging laws were made because of them.

OR believe they are doing all of us a favor to be in the gun business in CA and forget about it...

DedEye
11-12-2007, 7:21 PM
Are FFLs allowed to charge $1-2 more ($37 total) for "paperwork?"

Fjold
11-12-2007, 7:30 PM
If you think that it's OK for the FFL to charge more than $35 give him a tip.

The law was specifically written so that people would go through an FFL for the background check and not sell them on the black market.

If the FFL's could charge as much as they want for PTP's many would be charging $100 or more because that's what they feel they could make if they sold you a new gun.

If you don't think that they would, you are being naive. Look at how many are willing to break the law for $10-$20 now.

G17GUY
11-12-2007, 7:32 PM
Are FFLs allowed to charge $1-2 more ($37 total) for "paperwork?"


Not for face to face. Out of state they can charge what they want.


Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.
(PC section 12072(d))

HKROB
11-12-2007, 7:38 PM
I just PPT 2 pistols at turners $41 each (dros included)took about 50 min for both.Their was a **** load of paper work.

hoffmang
11-12-2007, 7:41 PM
Guys,

Why exactly should we give retailers a pass on the laws we have to follow? I want all CA FFL's to care about pushing back on Sacramento. Right now there isn't a lot of interest from our local retailers (absent a few who frequent this board) to be active in opposing new legislation.

Not being involved means getting stuck with a legally mandatory face to face PPT fee that isn't enough to cover the costs and violating the Penal Code when they try to circumvent it.

-Gene

halifax
11-12-2007, 7:42 PM
I was just at Imbert & Smithers in San Carlos for a PPT (face to face Pistol purchase with another Calgunner) and was charged $50 for the transaction. I balked at the price and asked if they know it wasn't legal. The salesman stated that he wouldn't do PPTs if he couldn't charge $25 on top of the DROS. I told him that refusing PPTs was also illegal, but unfortunately I didn't have my trusty penal code book with me. :mad:

I suppose I'll print out the applicable code and FAQ from the DOJ website and bring them in when I pick up the pistol. Hopefully I can get a $15 refund, as the total allowable price is $35 for PPT.



Since the dealer is required by law to post conspicuously all fees charged, you really don't need to "print out the applicable code". Just find the conspicuously posted fee schedule. :)

12071.1(b)...

(11) The licensee shall post conspicuously within the licensed premises a detailed list of each of the following:
(A) All charges required by governmental agencies for processing firearm transfers required by Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.
(B) All fees that the licensee charges pursuant to Sections 12082 and 12806.
(12) The licensee shall not misstate the amount of fees charged by a governmental agency pursuant to Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.


12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072...

...The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction...

...(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

G17GUY
11-12-2007, 7:45 PM
I just PPT 2 pistols at turners $41 each (dros included)took about 50 min for both.Their was a **** load of paper work.


35+31 = 66 What does the reciept say the extra dough is for?

Steyr_223
11-12-2007, 7:49 PM
Anyone knows Iggy's phone number? Time to drop a dime on I and S..

Harbinger
11-12-2007, 7:50 PM
Lets look at this from the other side, please. When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour.

This transaction took less than 10min to complete.... and is MANDATED BY LAW to be performed upon request and at a SET AMOUNT.

I'll say it again: It doesn't matter whether we sympathize with the 'plight of the dealers'. Hoffmang is right, this is LAW and should be battled in court rather than in my pocket book.

Mike

G17GUY
11-12-2007, 7:52 PM
Thats why I like going to Irvington Arms. Those guys are great. I went to a ffl in Castro Valley (NOT CV GUNS). He refused to do it. Then told me he would do it for 10% of the MSRP of the gun. I left. I dont want to do business with guys like that. I dont need any company or gun shop.

ANDREOTTI ?

stagolee
11-12-2007, 8:17 PM
Good point... plus I don't want to burn any bridges. I may need these guys some time in the future.

Mike

1) They don't appear to care about burning bridges with you, the customer.

2) The merchant needs the customer moreso than the customer needs the merchant.

berg
11-12-2007, 8:34 PM
1) They don't appear to care about burning bridges with you, the customer.

2) The merchant needs the customer moreso than the customer needs the merchant.

It's too bad that I&S has this policy because I LOVE to go there. I have spent a bunch of money there over time and put several long guns on consignment with them. I consider Imbert and Smithers some of the "good guys" in this business even though they aren't interested in the OLL thing.

Over charging on the transfer is not too cool but it's not a deal breaker for me to go there. I do my transfers at Big 5.

phil conrad
11-12-2007, 8:59 PM
I just PPT 2 pistols at turners $41 each (dros included)took about 50 min for both.Their was a **** load of paper work.

I have done PPT at several Turners. Some have been goood and some just awful. Plus Turners has some of their own rules that take on a life of their own.

dfletcher
11-12-2007, 9:00 PM
I don't quite understand how anyone could rationalize any FFL dealer knowingly & willfully violating the law. By mandating FFL dealer participation in a PPT the state is in effect requiring a gun buyer and seller to visit the gun store - state sponsored foot traffic through their store. Half the battle in getting customers.

I really hesitate to tell someone else their business, but instead of illegally grabbing a few extra dollars and alienating a buyer, what would have been the effect of charging correctly and throwing in some crappy little gun sock or similar $3.00 item to the fellow buying the gun?

As an aside, I was at a gun store last week and a fellow was questioning the high total cost of the transfer & transaction. The gun store owner stated part of the cost was due to sales tax in the state the gun was sent from - Oregon.

chico.cm
11-12-2007, 9:08 PM
Feeling sorry for FFL's is not something I am equipped to do.
No one forced them into this line of work. It takes a unique person who is willing to jump through the hoops just to get licensed.
The fee structure is something all FFL's were well aware of when entering the market. If they objected, they should have picked a different line of work.
If the guy is an employee and misses a commission while doing my PPT, I don't care. That's the job. Customer Service is still to be expected in gun stores, no?

JeffM
11-12-2007, 10:17 PM
Feeling sorry for FFL's is not something I am equipped to do.
No one forced them into this line of work. It takes a unique person who is willing to jump through the hoops just to get licensed.
The fee structure is something all FFL's were well aware of when entering the market. If they objected, they should have picked a different line of work.
If the guy is an employee and misses a commission while doing my PPT, I don't care. That's the job. Customer Service is still to be expected in gun stores, no?

+1

Well said.

bohoki
11-12-2007, 11:17 PM
has anybody tried a private party transfer at big-5?

WINGEDSWORD
11-12-2007, 11:40 PM
Turn the s.o.b. in. Any business that thinks it can ignore the law and treat it's customers any way they want to. deserves to be OUT OF Business!
This story reminds me of a gun shop that USED to be down here in L.A. B&B
sales. The following was one of their favorite tricks. ALL S&W service type
pistols came from Smith, with two magazines. Smith intended the buyer to have both. B&B used to remove one magazine and put it into their "Spares stock". They would They would sell the base gun at a "Discount". Then, if you wanted a spare mag, they would sell you the one they stole! Eventually,
their shady practices caught up with them.(More than just the mags) There is now, no B&B. If A shop is willing to break the law and cheat their customers
in one area, you may be certain that they are crooked in several others!

hitman13
11-12-2007, 11:58 PM
yes i did a rifle, allthough i dont think they do pistols

hitman13
11-12-2007, 11:59 PM
that was to the big5 question

hitman13
11-13-2007, 12:00 AM
...

DRM6000
11-13-2007, 12:05 AM
i would give the store a chance to rectify your situation so you can hopefully, be refunded the overpayment. try to find out why they charge an additional fee. then, turn them in.

thedrickel
11-13-2007, 12:31 AM
Easy on the drunk posting ehh . . .

http://i6.tinypic.com/71ogq42.jpg

Danield
11-13-2007, 8:22 AM
i went to gunrunners in Duarte 10 days ago to do a PPT on 2 OLLs, i was charged $60. I didnt know then that the PPT fees are laws. so, i got screwed too.

Harbinger
11-13-2007, 8:48 AM
Thanks for the responses, guys.

I've printed up the DOJ's guidelines and the appropriate penal code. I will point to the sign on the wall (if they have the proper signage) that says the same.

I will update everyone on Friday the 23rd, when I pick up the pistol.

Mike

TonyNorCal
11-13-2007, 9:02 AM
has anybody tried a private party transfer at big-5?


I did a PPT at Big 5 for a Remington 870.

It actually went quite well and didn't take more than half an hour. However (and this is a big however), this may not be typical of most Big 5 PPTs. When I did mine I called ahead, talked to a manager, and then asked for him by name upon arrival.

I would not just cold show up at Big 5 as you may find that the people on duty have no clue. Definitely call ahead and make sure there's someone there who knows how to do it.


This manager was nice and easy to deal with.

~~

I want to add that when I tried to use my C&R + COE to cash and carry several M44s from another Big 5 it took 2 hours and calls to the district manager. I ended up leaving that day with said rifles...but it was a bit of an adventure:)

1911man
11-13-2007, 10:52 AM
I just went down to my local gun shop, and asked them how much would a transfer fee and they told me $35 for long guns and $60 for handguns. I asked him why so much and he told me it was because of the demo on the handgun. Can they charge for that to? Isn't the demo on handguns about 15 to 20 minutes? that's about $100 an hour! That is how they get around it, charging anything they want.

CACitUP
11-13-2007, 12:48 PM
If you don't like it go somewhere else.

Do you think $5 or $10 compensates the FFL fairly for the time they spent on your PPT?



Uh.....YES.

It took my FFL a whole 5 minutes to complete a transaction last week, and we had to fill all the paperwork out. If Im not mistaken, $10 is the delaers cash. Wow....that $120 an hour. Quit *****en and start the paperwork ;)

mike452
11-13-2007, 1:05 PM
I just went down to my local gun shop, and asked them how much would a transfer fee and they told me $35 for long guns and $60 for handguns. I asked him why so much and he told me it was because of the demo on the handgun. Can they charge for that to? Isn't the demo on handguns about 15 to 20 minutes? that's about $100 an hour! That is how they get around it, charging anything they want.

They can charge whatever they want for the safety demonstration.
If we only count the minutes we actually work, we'll all be making way more than that.

If a FFL want to charge extra for their valuable time, then I should be able to change them for wasting my time. If they want to change me $75 for a 30 min task, then I should get pay for anything beyond 30 minutes. My skill set puts me at a $125/hr billing rate. :D

Steyr_223
11-13-2007, 1:12 PM
" B&B used to remove one magazine and put it into their "Spares stock". They would They would sell the base gun at a "Discount". Then, if you wanted a spare mag, they would sell you the one they stole! Eventually,
their shady practices caught up with them.(More than just the mags) There is now, no B&B. If A shop is willing to break the law and cheat their customers
in one area, you may be certain that they are crooked in several others!"

Years ago at Traders in San Leandro, I went to pickup a CZ75BD. They only gave me one ten round mag. Said if I wanted another mag I would have to pay for it. I pointed out that they should come with too. Offered to call CZ support on their 800 number...They gave me the 2nd mag..

:)

Toolbox X
11-13-2007, 1:15 PM
Lets look at this from the other side, please. When you do a PPT, the transaction usually takes a minimum of 45 minutes to one hour. In that time, the employee may not make any sales, nor assist any other customers in any meaningful way. He must also fill out a great deal of paper work, some of which he will have to do after you leave. After all of it, the store will make almost no money for all of his time, and if he is working on commission, then he will miss making a sale for his store and himself for as long as it takes to finish you up. Not only that, but if the store is understaffed, then the customers who went there to buy something that the store can actually profit from have to wait until your business is finished....I understand you don't want to spend a lot of money, hence you're buying a used gun, but understand that YOU have to go through about 1/10 th the effort that the poor bastard guy behind the counter does. What it boils down to is that there is nothing in it for anyone but you when you do a PPT. And I think stores should be able to charge more.

You've nailed it. This is one more way CA FFL's get screwed.

BUT....

The law for the $35 charge on PPT's is there to encourage people to transfer their pistols and rifles legally, through a dealer, instead of a parking lot illegally.

The DOJ destroys all DROS records after 90 days, so selling a rifle to someone in a parking lot doesn't leave much of a trace. If FFL's are allowed to charge $50 or $100 for a person to sell their own property to someone else, and there isn't any record anyway, people are simply going to buy and sell guns illegally, which puts guns into the hands of criminals.

Want to buy my SKS rifle for $120? Okay, let's go drive 45 minutes to the FFL, you can pay a $100 transfer fee, have the dealer hold the rifle for you for 10 days after which you get to then drive all the way back to the dealer. Or I can just hand you the SKS, you hand me $120, and we each go our separate ways and no one knows any different because all DROS records are destroyed after 90 days anyway.

Can you see the problem?

The problem is not that dealers aren't allowed to charge enough. The problem is PPT's are too expensive and inconvenient. We WANT people to transfer guns legally. That's what keeps guns out of the hands of criminals.

My proposed solution is no waiting period on PPT's and all PPT's can be processed at any police or sheriff station for $10, and every gun show will have a PPT table that can handle any PPT on the spot for the same $10 and no waiting period. This would take the PPT burden off of FFL's and prevent a lot of criminals from getting guns.

tgriffin
11-13-2007, 1:31 PM
My proposed solution is no waiting period on PPT's and all PPT's can be processed at any police or sheriff station for $10, and every gun show will have a PPT table that can handle any PPT on the spot for the same $10 and no waiting period. This would take the PPT burden off of FFL's and prevent a lot of criminals from getting guns.

Damn fine idea. That makes so much sense its not even funny. Which is exactly why they will never allow it. :mad:

joe4702
11-13-2007, 8:42 PM
Didn't some of these same FFLs lobby IN FAVOR of the law requiring all private gun sales go through them? I guess they didn't expect the legislature to put a cap on the fee they could charge.

HKROB
11-13-2007, 9:14 PM
35+31 = 66 What does the reciept say the extra dough is for?

DROS fee $19
DOJ safty fee $1
doj eq fee $5
transfer fee $10
Cable lock that they make you buy $5.99
sales tax $0.46
TOTAL $41.45

The total out the door for both transfers was $82.90

WINGEDSWORD
11-13-2007, 11:29 PM
Now to post about a couple of FFL's that wants to do what they are supposed to. Gun country, In Burbank charges just what they are supposed to. They are friendly and helpful. They are a great little store! Another one that also does right by it's customers, is Bain and Davis in San Gabriel. Also quick, friendly,
knowlegable and fair. A bit far for me, but They always seem to have what I need, when I need it!

williamkwong
11-14-2007, 12:42 AM
I've done all my transfers through Roger's Relic...except my first pistol. They never charged excessively. Even a PPT on a lower was $35...and the whole process was less than 20 mins. I dont know what difference a PPT on a handgun is however.

RECCE556
11-16-2007, 7:01 AM
When you deal with Turners, just return the lock for a refund. People do it all the time and there is no law that says you can't do that.

Lefkiguy
11-17-2007, 12:37 AM
As a carry on of Toolbox X's last answer, When you are the seller in a ptp, you do get a form which says that you are no longer the owner of the firearm. If it is used later in a crime, that would come in handy to remove you from liability. (vs selling that "SKS" in the parking lot) Something to hold on to. If, of course, anyone actually wanted to SELL a gun. I'm considering a vault if I get around to building a new house.

Harbinger
11-23-2007, 1:18 PM
*** UPDATE *** Management at Imbert & Smithers refunded me $15. I consider this issue resolved. Thank you to everyone for their input.

The SoCal Gunner
11-23-2007, 1:48 PM
i went to gunrunners in Duarte 10 days ago to do a PPT on 2 OLLs, i was charged $60. I didnt know then that the PPT fees are laws. so, i got screwed too.

I think it's time to go back and show them your receipt and demand a refund if it was indeed a PPT. OLLs are considered long guns and and I believe it is $35 for the first and $10 max for each additional long gun. Don't tell me they processed two different DROS for you?

The only time a FFL can charge additional fees, as long as they are listed, is for a dealer sale, cosignment return, or return to paw (I don't even know what those are).

When I first purchased 2 OLLs via PPT, the FFL charged me $45. I didn't know the law at the time and I didn't really care. Might have been a slip but I also ordered 2 OLLs from out of state later on and the same FFL only charged me $35 for that transfer. Great guy.

BB63Squid
11-23-2007, 2:33 PM
I've done all my transfers through Roger's Relic...except my first pistol. They never charged excessively. Even a PPT on a lower was $35...and the whole process was less than 20 mins. I dont know what difference a PPT on a handgun is however.

+1 for Lisa and Roger. I purchased a revolver from a fellow CG and a local dealer in Campbell/SJ wanted to charge me 35+100 for the PPT. Realizing that if they would screw me on a PPT they would certainly screw me on any other purchase. So I asked around and UCLAplinker turned me on To Roger's Relics, I gave them a call. Lisa was more than willing to help, told me the legally mandated fee's and e-mailed me their contact info.

When we did the paperwork Lisa took maybe 15 minutes to do everything. When I picked it up Roger verified my ID, paperwork, gave me the safety test all in 10 minutes.

Granted, R.R's didn't make a bunch of money for their time. They did however show me they were honest, costumer oriented people and I will do business with them again. This is not the case for the original dealer whom I will NEVER spend another dollar in their shop ever again. In addition, if asked by my local buddies, I will steer them away from the shady dealer.

Harbinger
11-23-2007, 3:31 PM
what took place in order for you to get your money back

I had to speak with the owner's daughter (current manager on duty), who refunded me $15 and asked that I make note of it in this post. I had presented them with a copy of the DOJ's website and they presented me with a printed copy of this thread.

My hope is that they will review the penal codes and DOJ guidelines and make the correct choice on future transactions.

Mike

OutlawDon
11-23-2007, 3:35 PM
I had to speak with the owner's daughter (current manager on duty), who refunded me $15 and asked that I make note of it in this post. I had presented them with a copy of the DOJ's website and they presented me with a printed copy of this thread.

My hope is that they will review the penal codes and DOJ guidelines and make the correct choice on future transactions.

Mike


Mike,

That's great to hear. How are you liking that 686? ;)

I guess from now on, it's $35 for all PPT's there?

Thanks for getting the train rolling on this one!

-Don

Jeffrock
11-23-2007, 3:35 PM
Now to post about a couple of FFL's that wants to do what they are supposed to. Gun country, In Burbank charges just what they are supposed to. They are friendly and helpful. They are a great little store! Another one that also does right by it's customers, is Bain and Davis in San Gabriel. Also quick, friendly,
knowlegable and fair. A bit far for me, but They always seem to have what I need, when I need it!
Gun Country is awesome! Ernie is the man. I highly recommend Gun Country to anyone in the area looking for a good place to ppt guns.

devjunk762
11-23-2007, 3:49 PM
Great news on the fee 'reduction'...
Hopefully it stays the same for all new PPT transfers there from now on. :mad:

However, from the tone of the transaction, I would NEVER want to transfer anything there EVER. I count on my FFLs to know the laws, and not screw me over in the process (especially illegally). :eek:

Anyways, it sounds like you handled this entire affair in a forthright and honest manner. +1

WokMaster1
11-23-2007, 4:03 PM
Mike,

That's great to hear. How are you liking that 686? ;)

I guess from now on, it's $35 for all PPT's there?
Thanks for getting the train rolling on this one!

-Don

Only if you say the password. "2 weeks".:D

thedrickel
11-23-2007, 6:53 PM
I had to speak with the owner's daughter (current manager on duty), who refunded me $15 and asked that I make note of it in this post. I had presented them with a copy of the DOJ's website and they presented me with a printed copy of this thread.

My hope is that they will review the penal codes and DOJ guidelines and make the correct choice on future transactions.

Mike

It's good to hear that they read calguns. Now, if only they would read the AR/AK FAQ, they could drum up some more legal business. As much as I like Roger's Relics, Imbert & Smithers is a much more convenient place for me.

Harbinger
11-23-2007, 7:30 PM
Mike,

That's great to hear. How are you liking that 686? ;)

I guess from now on, it's $35 for all PPT's there?

Thanks for getting the train rolling on this one!

-Don

Cleaned it and then took it to San Leandro, today. It's every bit the laser beam I'd dreamed it would be! It's quite tame with .38s and MONSTROUS with .357s. :43:

Thanks again Don!

Mike

OutlawDon
11-23-2007, 10:59 PM
Cleaned it and then took it to San Leandro, today. It's every bit the laser beam I'd dreamed it would be! It's quite tame with .38s and MONSTROUS with .357s. :43:

Thanks again Don!

Mike

You're welcome, and glad you are the new owner and lovin' it.

BTW, here's my first AR I just finished. Got the GGG GS-1 rail today to raise and extend the scope, so I am heading to San Leandro myself tomorrow to test this thing out. ;)

DPMS 20" Bull Barrel Lo Pro Upper
Spike's Lower
Stag LPK
Ergo Grip
A2 stock
Bullet Button
Harris Bipod
Bushnell 4200 6-24x40

http://healthbydon.com/ar15.jpg

82A1CAL
11-24-2007, 9:22 PM
Gun laws in CA is so complicate that even most FFL dealer don't fully understand them. I didn't know I was over charged a whole $4 until I read the link below. :D Orange County Shooting Range charged me $70 for 2 PPT pistols transfer.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#8