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WolfMansDad
11-11-2007, 8:58 PM
The OLL disposal thread got me thinking, and I'd like to share some thoughts with you all about risk and the OLL movement. Specifically, I'd like to put some perspective on the one case I know anything about, Matt Corwin's.

As most of you know, Matt (aka BlackwaterOPS) was arrested earlier this year at his home, and all of his firearms were siezed. His arrest was the result of an accusation made by someone at the school Matt attended at the time, East L.A. College. Matt was accused of being a danger to the school because he was a firearms enthusiast. Some enthusiastic but perhaps poorly-thought-out range videos posted on his myspace page, combined with the then-fresh Virginia Tech tragedy, were enough to convince a judge that Matt posed a danger to the school. Matt was arrested, and the judge set bail high enough that Matt languished in jail for three weeks before his family and the good guys at Trutanich-Michel were able to bail him out.

Now, those of you who know Matt will realize that this accusation is absurd. The actual criminal complaints used against him were also absurd, but I want to focus on the real issue here, the reason behind Matt's arrest. The criminal complaints are merely the justification. Matt is outgoing, popular, and well adjusted. He is a veteran and was, at the time of his arrest, serving as president of the associated student body of his school. He also, unfortunately, stood out in comparison to his classmates. He was not latino in a predominantly latino student body. He is a Libertarian - and was active in his college Libertarian's club and second amendment club - on a campus where many of the students and most of the professors are outright Marxists. In short, he was different, and that made him enemies as well as friends. Those enemies saw an opportunity in the hysteria that followed the Virginia Tech tragedy to do Matt harm, and harm him they did.

In the grossest display of treachery and injustice, one of these individuals forged an email after Matt was released on bail, signing his name to a threat of violence. This forgery was apparently designed to get him thrown back in jail, and it almost worked. The sherriff's department was preparing to take Matt back into custody when Trutanich-Michel proved that the email was forged and identified the real author.

Now, Matt is a good kid. He is not a gang banger or "wannabe," and he aspires to become a productive member of society, either through further service to his country or a legal career. Both aspirations would be jeopordized if he were to be convicted of even a misdemeanor. His family, while a loving one, is also one of modest means, and modest means are often not enough to hire an attorney who will see that justice is done.

Matt was very active in the OLL movement and a regular on calguns. When he was arrested, many, many calgunners stepped up and donated funds for his legal defense. It was through calguns, if I remember correctly, that he was put in contact with the excellent attorneys at Trutanich-Michel.

Let me make this very clear. Matt was not arrested for having off-list rifles. He was arrested for believing in freedom and saying so in public. If, when they had raided Matt's home, the police had found only a single, noncontroversial, "safe" gun and a few boxes of ammunition, I doubt very seriously they would have apologized, given him his gun back, and left him in peace. No, not owning OLLs would not have helped Matt at all. In fact, it is probably safe to say that it was his OLL's that got him out of jail, not in it. Because of his participation in calguns and the OLL movement we, his "brothers in arms" so to speak, gave him the support he needed to fight the scurrilous and unsubstantiated charges leveled against him. Would all of you who donated have done so if he had not been a member of this forum? Would you have done so if his rifles had been mini-14s or 10/22s, instead of the once-controversial kind that brought us all together here?

Benjamin Franklin once said, when he and his friends were opposing another tyrannical government, "We must hang together, or surely we will all hang separately." Matt Corwin stands and fights on the front lines of a battle for all of our freedoms. He, and every other OLL owner, deserves our gratitude and support. If the gun banners get their off-list rifles, your 10/22 will be next, or my pump shotgun. Don't believe for a minute that getting rid of your unbuilt lower will make that crowd happy, or you any safer. Our strength - and we have the strength to win this fight and one day overturn the California AW ban - comes from our unity. If you have an OLL, built or unbuilt, don't destroy or transfer it out of fear. Don't abandon the movement to appease the enemy.

bwiese
11-11-2007, 9:05 PM
Thanks WMD, good post.

I wish to also emphasize the number of known LE contacts w/OLL present (traffic stop, etc.) with favorable outcomes now *exceeds* the known OLL incidents of the past. In fact most of the past inicdents were early on in 2006. The BWO case had a lot of drama in it with so much publicity that DAs have a hard time backing down - it was not a DOJ-driven case and LA DA office scorns DOJ FD/BoF.

DedEye
11-11-2007, 9:08 PM
:79:

Good post.

savageevo
11-11-2007, 9:42 PM
Thank you. wolfmandad for the inspiration. I hope every calgunner reads this.

Knight
11-11-2007, 9:45 PM
I'm sorry, what is Mr. Corwin currently charged with? I understand some charges were dropped, but what remains?

savasyn
11-11-2007, 9:46 PM
Destroy or sell OLLs??? Heck, I was thinking about getting a few more!

williamkwong
11-11-2007, 10:10 PM
That was a great read.

Thanks.

Crazed_SS
11-11-2007, 10:13 PM
*flamesuit on*

Well written post, but it a little too idealistic for me.

I noticed you said BWOs case isnt about the Off-list rifles, but after looking at the criminal complaint, it sure looks like it is. When they posted pics of his guns on the news, I noticed shotguns, a M1A SOCOM, and some pistols. I didnt see the SOCOM or Shotgun listed in the criminal complaint. If he didnt have the Off-list stuff, right now he'd be facing charges for what? Brass Knuckles and Throwing stars?

Off-list rifles adds unecessary risk and complexity to my life. Everyone has they own risk/benefit gauge.. For me the potential trouble that could be caused by having an Offlist rifle FAR outweighs the benefit. I'm not gonna tell anyone else not to own one, but it just isnt for me. The "movement" seems pretty healthy and the loss of one or two people wont hurt anything. Last time I was at the gun show, CWS looked like they making money hand over fist on Saigas, CA-complian PS90's, and OLLs. :)


EDIT:
And before anyone says I'm a sell out/wuss/nancy/etc, check post #35 in the thread below and then see Matt's response to me.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=48894&page=4&highlight=evening+news
What happened to the cops needing "a lot of backup" to subdue him? The news said he was arrested without incident.
Reality is what happened. It's easy to talk big on a message board, but when stuff happens in real life, all that crap quickly goes out the window.

Knight
11-11-2007, 10:26 PM
I noticed you said BWOs case isnt about the Off-list rifles, but after looking at the criminal complaint, it sure looks like it is. When they posted pics of his guns on the news, I noticed shotguns, a M1A SOCOM, and some pistols. I didnt see the SOCOM or Shotgun listed in the criminal complaint. If he didnt have the Off-list stuff, right now he'd be facing charges for what? Brass Knuckles and Throwing stars?

:yes: Exactly my point.

Bizcuits
11-11-2007, 10:32 PM
Interesting read. Although, I myself still am nervous of OLL's.

I'd love nothing more then to grab an AK, throw on a MMG and finally put my old 30rds to use! However considering I juggle my bills and work overtime to just be able to go out with the woman. I can't afford the risk of being stuck in a court battle or losing my job, when I barelly can afford my life now.

I've been in court battles before with friends and family. I hate them, their stressful and cost to much. In the end, I can wait for the blurred line to get more visible. Until then I'll have to settle for my 30rd paper weights and my Mini-14.

ivanimal
11-11-2007, 10:37 PM
I would rather stand with Matt and risk all than lay down and lose all.

draconianruler
11-11-2007, 10:52 PM
I didn't know people were destroying their OLLs. They should sell it to me for cheap instead :D

adamsreeftank
11-12-2007, 12:38 AM
I would rather stand with Matt and risk all than lay down and lose all.

Well said.

Muzz
11-12-2007, 1:54 AM
I would rather stand with Matt and risk all than lay down and lose all.
Amen.

aileron
11-12-2007, 5:25 AM
WMD, good post. :D


To BlackWaterOps.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin

tenpercentfirearms
11-12-2007, 7:45 AM
Man, I live in Kern County and OLL sales are just as strong as ever.

Actually, we will be working on making the OLL mainstream over the next year. Stay tuned.

Crazed_SS
11-12-2007, 8:04 AM
WMD, a good read definitely.

alot of people I know are now selling or trading their OLL's. most of them are scared to use their rifles, mainly for what happened to me and matt, and the general attitude of OLL's with law enforcement. but also because of whats been happening at burro canyon as well. the way one of my better friends put it, "I just cant afford to prove my rifle is legal in court"


Can you blame them though? As blasphemous as this might sound, for some people certain things in life might be more important than guns. I shoot more as a hobby, not as a way of life. I'm also into cars as a hobby. If putting a new exhaust on my car put me at risk of being mistakenly arrested for a felony, then I guess I'll the stock exhaust would have to do. Calling it giving up rights, selling out, whatever.. for those people you know that have said "no mas" and got rid of their off-list rifles, they're just doing what they think is prudent to protect themselves and their livelihood.

Us that have wussed out are just taking advice in your sig there :)

bwiese
11-12-2007, 8:13 AM
One has to ask oneself what they've done wrong in life to not be able to afford an attorney.

Especially as we've radically dropped the cost of defense - a package can be dropped into the lap of an ordinary local-yokel criminal attorney.
BWOs situation was unique.

Also, I will continue to reiterate that it appears it's just dudes 26yrd old and younger that seem to have problems, which brings into questions overall behavior, etc.

Gator Monroe
11-12-2007, 8:21 AM
Rimfires (AK98-T,WASR 22,RPK-T, Carbon 15, and the soon to be Imported GSG 5) will be a direction for OLL shy firearms enthusiasts to go in their EBR/AK/AR quest here in Ca.:eek:

Glock22Fan
11-12-2007, 8:23 AM
One has to ask oneself what they've done wrong in life to not be able to afford an attorney.

Well, let's see; one could have a wife that is disabled, and really needs to quit work some 15 years ahead of normal retirement, and who has massive medical bills. Considering that it can take 3 - 5 years before disabled benefits are approved (assuming that they are going to be) and little or no income in the meantime, then maybe one doesn't want to risk getting involved with hundreds, let alone tens of thousands (or more) in legal bills.

Bizcuits
11-12-2007, 8:25 AM
Also, I will continue to reiterate that it appears it's just dudes 26yrd old and younger that seem to have problems, which brings into questions overall behavior, etc.

Most people under 26 are still juggling school, careers, families, relationships and rentals. Post 26, your going to find many more established persons who have homes and solid careers to fall back on.

Crazed_SS
11-12-2007, 8:32 AM
One has to ask oneself what they've done wrong in life to not be able to afford an attorney.

Especially as we've radically dropped the cost of defense - a package can be dropped into the lap of an ordinary local-yokel criminal attorney.
BWOs situation was unique.

Also, I will continue to reiterate that it appears it's just dudes 26yrd old and younger that seem to have problems, which brings into questions overall behavior, etc.

From what I've seen here, good attorneys are expensive. Thousands and 10's of thousands of dollars expensive. Even if I had 10's of thousands in the bank (which I dont), I would rather not throw it all away over some BS gun charges.

I do have prepaid legal through my work.. they take 8 dollars out of my check every 2 weeks. Wonder if they could defend an OLL case :)

PIRATE14
11-12-2007, 9:56 AM
This country was born from idealists........:chris:

While legal fees are expensive.....at least you aren't really risking all.....

Our legal fees have gone into 10Ks of thousands of dollars but luckily the OLL continue to be popular and are fueling the expanding line-up available to the gun owning CALIFORNIANs.........

The amount of FFLs that are handling these products is expanding....once again making them more available and easier to procure......

Owning a stripped lower isn't really that big of risk.......none at all......

JCG
11-12-2007, 12:41 PM
As I said in another post, each individual needs to take on the amount of risk they are comfortable with.

However there are some of us who have fought (and continue to fight) for the rest of us gunowners.

Myself, SPG, BWO, and many others have all fought, and in BWO's case is still fighting, a legal battle that benefits the greater good.

There is nothing wrong with being an idealist. As was already said, this country was built by idealists.

Fighting these legal battles are very expensive, and jail and all the other BS is no picnic, but the fight needs to be fought.

My legal battles (including my divorce) have left me completely broke. A little over two years ago I owned a house (with alot of equity) had a very healthy bank account and a six figure job. I don't ave any of that any more. Would I do it all over again? Without hesitation! I have spent the past two years fighting for the two most important things in my life...... my son, and my rights.

I have another 2 years and 4 months left on my firearms prohibition. But I am ok with that knowing that in Santa Clara County no one will have to go through what I did because of a Saiga. To me it was all worth it.

10TH AMENDMENT
11-12-2007, 4:38 PM
From what I've seen here, good attorneys are expensive. Thousands and 10's of thousands of dollars expensive. Even if I had 10's of thousands in the bank (which I dont), I would rather not throw it all away over some BS gun charges.

I do have prepaid legal through my work.. they take 8 dollars out of my check every 2 weeks. Wonder if they could defend an OLL case :)

Short answer...No.

Long answer...HELL NO! ;)

bwiese
11-12-2007, 4:41 PM
Prepaid legal is a joke. Traffic, DUI, probate, maybe. That's it.

However, for non-publicity (i.e., non-BWO-style) cases involving a legally-configured OLL, the cost has dropped - - providing we here know about the case and can talk with attorney and get him up to speed.

If you have a competent general criminal defense attorney, enough materials can be supplied to get him up to speed in a couple of hours.

chico.cm
11-12-2007, 8:35 PM
Thanks for the pep talk WMD!
*Raises hand*
I make a motion that one of the General Officers at CG.N make up Tshirts that say something to the effect of: "Free Matt Corwin". And sell them for $5 or $10 to start a OLL defense fund.

(p.s. I realize that Matt is not incarcerated, but he is certainly not free yet!)

Experimentalist
11-12-2007, 8:51 PM
Most of us have heard brave words in gun shops, and yet many of these same individuals can't be bothered to vote.

I"m not pointing fingers at any particular persons. I have great sympathy and respect for those that have fought the good fight in the court rooms.

I'm talking about the self-deluded fools who will vow a bloody revolution should "they" confiscate all the guns. Talk about a drunkards oath!

So, come the next election (for President, by the way), are you going to exercise your right to vote and influence your future, or does the stink of "keyboard commando" cling to you?

deldgeetar
11-12-2007, 11:01 PM
As I said in another post, each individual needs to take on the amount of risk they are comfortable with.

However there are some of us who have fought (and continue to fight) for the rest of us gunowners.

Myself, SPG, BWO, and many others have all fought, and in BWO's case is still fighting, a legal battle that benefits the greater good.

There is nothing wrong with being an idealist. As was already said, this country was built by idealists.

Fighting these legal battles are very expensive, and jail and all the other BS is no picnic, but the fight needs to be fought.

My legal battles (including my divorce) have left me completely broke. A little over two years ago I owned a house (with alot of equity) had a very healthy bank account and a six figure job. I don't ave any of that any more. Would I do it all over again? Without hesitation! I have spent the past two years fighting for the two most important things in my life...... my son, and my rights.

I have another 2 years and 4 months left on my firearms prohibition. But I am ok with that knowing that in Santa Clara County no one will have to go through what I did because of a Saiga. To me it was all worth it.

As a resident of Santa Clara County, an owner of a Saiga and a reader of your legal battles, I thank you for your efforts. I take your situation as an example to strive for when fighting for my rights.

WolfMansDad
11-13-2007, 1:46 PM
This country was born from idealists........:chris:

While legal fees are expensive.....at least you aren't really risking all.....

Our legal fees have gone into 10Ks of thousands of dollars but luckily the OLL continue to be popular and are fueling the expanding line-up available to the gun owning CALIFORNIANs.........

The amount of FFLs that are handling these products is expanding....once again making them more available and easier to procure......

Owning a stripped lower isn't really that big of risk.......none at all......

Has the revenue from your California sales helped you fight legal battles on our behalf?

bwiese
11-13-2007, 1:57 PM
Has the revenue from your California sales helped you fight legal battles on our behalf?

It's gone toward helping him fight his own battles which are ongoing, and probably subsidized The Right People's unbilled support of other folks.

Hector is right up their on the Sh*t List and for all I know probably has funny clicking noises on his phone line. And he still doesn't back down.

4 Brigada
11-13-2007, 2:08 PM
The amount of FFLs that are handling these products is expanding....once again making them more available and easier to procure......

When is this wave going to Fresno. Cause as of today only one FFL /dealer will handle AR type OLL. Forget any other type of OLL.

hoozaru
11-13-2007, 2:18 PM
2nd amendment rights, truth, justice and freedom

how much do they cost? thousands of dollars? hundreds of thousands? millions?

larryb
11-13-2007, 4:06 PM
When is this wave going to Fresno. Cause as of today only one FFL /dealer will handle AR type OLL. Forget any other type of OLL.


Just use Breco in Clovis. Great guy to deal with. I could have sworn i seen a OLL rifle at Herb Bauers a few weeks back. I could be wrong as i didnt spend much time shopping there.

DIG
11-13-2007, 4:21 PM
great post!;)

I hate the thought of destroying a perfectly legal OLL. Now I'm going to have bad dreams tonight!:eek:
For the people that may be paranoid about owning an OLL, and a fixed-mag configuration doesn't provide peace of mind, just take the rifle apart while storing in your safe (remove pistol grip, etc...). It only takes a minute or two.

FEDUPWBS
11-13-2007, 4:32 PM
Just use Breco in Clovis. Great guy to deal with. I could have sworn i seen a OLL rifle at Herb Bauers a few weeks back. I could be wrong as i didnt spend much time shopping there.

Love Breco, but he will not touch anything other than AR type OLL.

anotherone
11-13-2007, 4:34 PM
One has to ask oneself what they've done wrong in life to not be able to afford an attorney.

I think the point that was being made here isn't that not all of us can afford an attorney, but rather that we would rather not have to risk spending our money on one. Even the smallest legal bills will top $1,000 and I can think of at least 5 or 10 things I'd rather have for $1,000 than going to court with an attorney.

4 Brigada
11-13-2007, 4:45 PM
Just use Breco in Clovis. Great guy to deal with

Yeap he is the only one, but only AR OLL. Im one of those sick bastards that likes FAL type rifles.

larryb
11-13-2007, 4:47 PM
Love Breco, but he will not touch anything other than AR type OLL.

Not to sure what you are looking for but he had some type of AK on the rack that i seen this morning when i was there.

soopafly
11-13-2007, 4:47 PM
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you are that worried about owning a built up off-lister, then leave it as a stripped reciever. In that state, it is 1) not a semi-auto firearm; 2) not a "rifle"; 3) does not posess any prohibited SB23 features. You'll be fine. I say buy more lowers/recievers!!!!

4 Brigada
11-13-2007, 5:26 PM
If you are that worried about owning a built up off-lister

Soopa, Im worried about not being able to have the parts to build a CA legal rifle, based on someone elses fear (FFL/Dealer) loosing their livelyhood for doing nothing wrong or illegal. Just scared by the BOF. Not right.

Crazed_SS
11-13-2007, 6:13 PM
great post!;)

I hate the thought of destroying a perfectly legal OLL. Now I'm going to have bad dreams tonight!:eek:
For the people that may be paranoid about owning an OLL, and a fixed-mag configuration doesn't provide peace of mind, just take the rifle apart while storing in your safe (remove pistol grip, etc...). It only takes a minute or two.

It's not the configuration that I'm worried about.. Im more worried a clueless LEO/DA would consider an Off-list rifle a Cat-2 AW due to the series language that is still being used.

bwiese
11-13-2007, 8:02 PM
It's not the configuration that I'm worried about.. Im more worried a clueless LEO/DA would consider an Off-list rifle a Cat-2 AW due to the series language that is still being used.

That really hasn't happened except in the 2005/6SJ Saiga case.

It's more the Cat 3 thing w/other cases and not understanding fixed mags (along with DOJ proposals on DOJ website that have now been removed courtesy of work by Gene Hoffman and Oaklander). I don't think there's been any MM or U15 cases or gripless cases - that seems to have sunk in.

DIG
11-13-2007, 8:13 PM
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you are that worried about owning a built up off-lister, then leave it as a stripped reciever. In that state, it is 1) not a semi-auto firearm; 2) not a "rifle"; 3) does not posess any prohibited SB23 features. You'll be fine. I say buy more lowers/recievers!!!!

yeah, what he said!:clap:

Grouch
11-13-2007, 8:37 PM
Not to sure what you are looking for but he had some type of AK on the rack that i seen this morning when i was there.

It's an Armscor AK22. Not a real ak.

Bizcuits
11-13-2007, 8:56 PM
I don't think there's been any MM or U15 cases or gripless cases - that seems to have sunk in.

This is what I'd like more info on, as the MMG and U15s interest me, where as the locked mags don't. I always figured the MMG build would be more subject to inspection and confusion then the locked mag build.

bwiese
11-13-2007, 8:59 PM
This is what I'd like more info on, as the MMG and U15s interest me, where as the locked mags don't. I always figured the MMG build would be more subject to inspection and confusion then the locked mag build.

Actually not. Seems that once "off list" is dealt with, the 'weirdness" of MMG says "I'm funky for a reason." There are fewer U15 stocks out there given understandable price differential, but I'd bet the same thing.

blackrazor
11-13-2007, 10:30 PM
I just don't get it. I have a letter SPECIFICALLY stating, in black and white, signed by Alison Merrilees herself, that the DSA ZM4 is legal to purchase and own in CA so long as it doesn't have any offending features. It just doesn't get any more clear cut than that folks. Now, if you want to be super, uber paranoid, just buy one of the named OLL's, like the ZM4, or the JP, or any of the other ones. I can't even think of anything in this state that I'm more sure you CAN own than a DOJ approved OLL. I don't have a letter from the DOJ specfically authorizing me to own my kitchen sink, but I do have one authorizing me to own my ZM4's. I feel more confident in the legality of my possessing DSA ZM4 receivers than I do owning anything else.

BTW folks, I think it's time to man up a bit. I mean Jesus, if there are people without the guts to own a gun, even when it's specifically authorized by our master overlords, then just what the hell are you all going to do if (when) .gov really goes nuts and really starts stripping all your rights away??? I think we all know the answer to that one... and it's sad. Of couse, everyone's got their excuse, their kids, their friends, family, house, money, blah blah blah. In the end it's all just another Bull@#$%# excuse.

The bill of rights ain't worth the paper it's printed on if you'd rather sit at home watching TV reruns instead standing up for your rights as a human being.

dondo
11-13-2007, 10:48 PM
BTW folks, I think it's time to man up a bit. I mean Jesus, if there are people without the guts to own a gun, even when it's specifically authorized by our master overlords, then just what the hell are you all going to do if (when) .gov really goes nuts and really starts stripping all your rights away??? I think we all know the answer to that one... and it's sad. Of couse, everyone's got their excuse, their kids, their friends, family, house, money, blah blah blah. In the end it's all just another Bull@#$%# excuse.

The bill of rights ain't worth the paper it's printed on if you'd rather sit at home watching TV reruns instead standing up for your rights as a human being.
Is this a pep talk for the third grade soccer team? Nothing like being condescending to people who have some fears about OLL's. Don't belittle someones concerns about their families, children, house by calling it a bull **** excuse. Some people do no have the same confidence you have in that piece of paper you own. Its their choice and they arent attacking people who own OLL's or calling their endeavor trite. It has nothing to do with standing up or being a man. And just because someone here has second thoughts on owning OLL does not make them rerun watching couch potatoes. If in their eyes their families or financial well being can be threatened, how can you argue with them or call them a name. That makes you an ***hole. You man up and keep this forum a place for anyone that needs or wants the information of OLL's courteous and civil. Lets try at least to answer the questions at hand and remedy legitimate concerns of those in our group.

MrLogan
11-13-2007, 10:57 PM
"Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live--at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance--just one chance--to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take OUR FREEDOM!"--Mel Gibson's William Wallace

Now that's a pep talk. :D

Addax
11-14-2007, 12:13 AM
WMD,

That is an excellent Post, and I could not agree with you more.

I have felt that if you help those in need, others will always step in to help you when you are in need.

If Matt needs more help, please advise.

Regards,
Addax

tenpercentfirearms
11-14-2007, 5:01 AM
This is what I'd like more info on, as the MMG and U15s interest me, where as the locked mags don't. I always figured the MMG build would be more subject to inspection and confusion then the locked mag build.

Bill is right, it might be the opposite. The DOJ tried to change the definition of "capable of accepting" a detachable magazine through the regulation process. We pretty much stopped that in its tracks. So you are probably more likely to have a rifle confiscated with a fixed magazine device.

However, if someone is bent on confiscating your rifle, they will probably do it with anything you have built up. Nothing is really safe if some tyrrant wants to screw with you. Hell they could confiscate your pistol grip pump action shotgun if they are stupid enough.

If people don't want to do OLLs, that is fine. I am not going to insult them for it. I am however going to try and spread the info and message anyway. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice their comfortable lifestyle for what is apparently a small issue like this.

Some people think there is a bigger picture and think this is certainly worth standing up for. You make your decision and live by it. All this is a personal matter and I can only speak for myself.

You are all going to jail. All your base are belong to us! :D

dondo
11-14-2007, 9:15 AM
Bill is right, it might be the opposite. The DOJ tried to change the definition of "capable of accepting" a detachable magazine through the regulation process. We pretty much stopped that in its tracks. So you are probably more likely to have a rifle confiscated with a fixed magazine device.

However, if someone is bent on confiscating your rifle, they will probably do it with anything you have built up. Nothing is really safe if some tyrrant wants to screw with you. Hell they could confiscate your pistol grip pump action shotgun if they are stupid enough.

If people don't want to do OLLs, that is fine. I am not going to insult them for it. I am however going to try and spread the info and message anyway. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice their comfortable lifestyle for what is apparently a small issue like this.

Some people think there is a bigger picture and think this is certainly worth standing up for. You make your decision and live by it. All this is a personal matter and I can only speak for myself.

You are all going to jail. All your base are belong to us! :D

It would be pretty wierd for you NOT to stand up and make it a priority since you are the business and all.

I have no problem with OLL's and LOVE that they are available and I don't fear them. I just personally think as a group , being gun owners, should do what we can to support ourselves. The man who has second thoughts on OLL's yet has a safe with an 870 and a couple Marlin lever actions is no less a supporter of the 2nd amendment than the guy with a safe full STAG AR's...legally configured of course.

tombinghamthegreat
11-14-2007, 9:58 AM
That was a good post WolfMansDad. I almost bought one at the gun show, but someone beat me to the sale. I feel it is worth the risk and if the legal situation gets worse, a more "hands on" approach is need in defending the constitution.

Red_5
11-14-2007, 11:22 AM
Good post WMD.

We all need to do our part to keep the freedom we have and get back some that we've lost.

Getting hung out to dry for exercising your rights is wrong, no doubt about it. Not having the option to choose for yourself because you have no rights, well that's a real b*tch.

HillBilly
11-14-2007, 8:00 PM
I am interested, just as an honest question, how many calgunners with families and kids and mortgages and careers actually still have the "I will stand up against .gov regardless of the legal case...i am right and will fight it...."

I know in my personal case, it is nice to see people who say they are willing to fight, but honestly I am not...not for this. I'm not telling my kids that I spent their college fund on a lawyer because daddy had to have an OLL, that is just irresponsible and stupid. All the papers saying its legal are useless here. You still have a very high chance of getting a cop who doesn't sympathize, and a DA who is willing to charge you regardless, and I can't risk that. I, like some of the others, will not be seen in public with an OLL. I will stick with my mini14 so that I can see my kids grow up without a broke felon for a father.

Good luck to the next BWO; all that is assured is that it won't be me, as I have more to lose than gun rights.:cool:

hoffmang
11-14-2007, 8:07 PM
HillBilly,

Mortgage: Check
Disabled Child: Check
Normal Child: Check
Wife: Check

Desire to bend over and take it: Nope.

You die a little when you decide to not care about fighting for your freedom. Do you want your kids living in a nation that doesn't trust them to defend themselves from the bad things in this world?

The Bonus of owning an OLL is at least you don't have to risk your life to advance liberty like so many others have had to.

-Gene

dondo
11-14-2007, 8:14 PM
I am interested, just as an honest question, how many calgunners with families and kids and mortgages and careers actually still have the "I will stand up against .gov regardless of the legal case...i am right and will fight it...."

I know in my personal case, it is nice to see people who say they are willing to fight, but honestly I am not...not for this. I'm not telling my kids that I spent their college fund on a lawyer because daddy had to have an OLL, that is just irresponsible and stupid. All the papers saying its legal are useless here. You still have a very high chance of getting a cop who doesn't sympathize, and a DA who is willing to charge you regardless, and I can't risk that. I, like some of the others, will not be seen in public with an OLL. I will stick with my mini14 so that I can see my kids grow up without a broke felon for a father.

Good luck to the next BWO; all that is assured is that it won't be me, as I have more to lose than gun rights.:cool:

You started off really well there. I think a lot of tough talkers would think twice if somehow the legal scales of justice tipped against us and there some serious liabilities to owning them (there are already actually). What I don't agree with for one is I don't think anybody has been convicted of anything concerning an OLL. I am in no way that schooled on the cases going on but I think most have been dropped however people have incurred some pretty serious expenses and the loss of their firearms. Also that last statement about more to lose than gun rights makes it sound like gun rights is something you immediately are not in favor of the minute you do not support OLL's. Thats where it gets wierd to me. You owning a MINI14 is just as important to the fight for the 2nd Amendment as owning 12 OLL's. People who are the "all or nothing" type that somehow align themselves in a higher moral struggle and "will fight to the death" is just plain crazy talk and keyboard commando...or single with nothing to lose. But at that point, just go get laid.

PIRATE14
11-14-2007, 8:39 PM
Well....things will always move ahead....

Everyone has to decide for themselves what their comfort level is....but if your a closet OLL owner.....good on ya....at least that is something.....

It seems to me that most OLL arrests had other issues surrounding them at the time....now whether or not having one around will cause further aggrevation is undecided.....

Too me you can't be a little bit pregnant.......

I gave many years to protect and defend the constitution, so I won't just shrug my shoulders now........

There a tons of people wanking about the pres/immigration/gas/inflation.....etc. Well somethings you can have a direct influence on....others your just along for the ride......

OLL......you can have a direct influence on the outcome.......which seems mostly like money right now, so bust open your wallet.....donate.....

M. Sage
11-14-2007, 9:35 PM
I am interested, just as an honest question, how many calgunners with families and kids and mortgages and careers actually still have the "I will stand up against .gov regardless of the legal case...i am right and will fight it...."

No kids, but...

My wife's a college student, we've got little in terms of money. Not homeowners... I do have a career, though. After watching people get their off-list rifles, I finally managed to get one (two, technically - I've got a bare NDS-3 sitting on a bookcase), knowing full-well what could happen. If it happens, it happens. I agree with Gene: I can't just let it go.

Addax
11-14-2007, 9:50 PM
+1

I am not only opening my wallet to donate, but to also buy more OLL / OLR!

Keep the momentum moving forward..





Well....things will always move ahead....

Everyone has to decide for themselves what their comfort level is....but if your a closet OLL owner.....good on ya....at least that is something.....

It seems to me that most OLL arrests had other issues surrounding them at the time....now whether or not having one around will cause further aggrevation is undecided.....

Too me you can't be a little bit pregnant.......

I gave many years to protect and defend the constitution, so I won't just shrug my shoulders now........

There a tons of people wanking about the pres/immigration/gas/inflation.....etc. Well somethings you can have a direct influence on....others your just along for the ride......

OLL......you can have a direct influence on the outcome.......which seems mostly like money right now, so bust open your wallet.....donate.....

blackrazor
11-14-2007, 10:03 PM
all that is assured is that it won't be me, as I have more to lose than gun rights.

This is exactly my point, this is what's happened to America. And really it's not just about gun rights... it's about all rights, and what people are willing to do to protect them. And if the average person isn't willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their freedoms, who's going to do it for them? I actually find myself hoping that all this talk I hear about "gun rights" is just a bunch of BS, because if we all really believe that owning a gun is a *right*, then it's pathetic how easy we've made it for the government take our rights away.

The founding fathers risked EVERYTHING they had for freedom and independence, and they had just as much to lose as anyone else here. So when someone says they've got "too much to lose" is just a bull$%#@ excuse. The founders had families, they had land, and they risked everything so that we might sit here bask in the freedom we didn't earn.

MonsterMan
11-14-2007, 10:23 PM
+1000000

I agree totally.


This is exactly my point, this is what's happened to America. And really it's not just about gun rights... it's about all rights, and what people are willing to do to protect them. And if the average person isn't willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their freedoms, who's going to do it for them? I actually find myself hoping that all this talk I hear about "gun rights" is just a bunch of BS, because if we all really believe that owning a gun is a *right*, then it's pathetic how easy we've made it for the government take our rights away.

The founding fathers risked EVERYTHING they had for freedom and independence, and they had just as much to lose as anyone else here. So when someone says they've got "too much to lose" is just a bull$%#@ excuse. The founders had families, they had land, and they risked everything so that we might sit here bask in the freedom we didn't earn.

Mute
11-14-2007, 10:24 PM
I'll be damned if I'm going to back down when I'm not the one breaking the law. The people pushing through these OLL arrests are the ones breaking the law.

deldgeetar
11-14-2007, 10:26 PM
This is exactly my point, this is what's happened to America. And really it's not just about gun rights... it's about all rights, and what people are willing to do to protect them. And if the average person isn't willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their freedoms, who's going to do it for them? I actually find myself hoping that all this talk I hear about "gun rights" is just a bunch of BS, because if we all really believe that owning a gun is a *right*, then it's pathetic how easy we've made it for the government take our rights away.

The founding fathers risked EVERYTHING they had for freedom and independence, and they had just as much to lose as anyone else here. So when someone says they've got "too much to lose" is just a bull$%#@ excuse. The founders had families, they had land, and they risked everything so that we might sit here bask in the freedom we didn't earn.

Well said, and our freedoms have been badly eroded because of the sentiments referred to above. Owning an offlist rifle is a large middle finger to an oppressive government that feels that it bestows rights upon us, rather than our rights being inherent. Chief among those rights is a right to bear arms and defend oneself against threats. "Threats" includes a tyrannical government, and expressed by our founders in the Declaration of Independence. Understandably someone would fear for the family's safety and well being, but I believe it was Ben Franklin who said "Those who would sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither."

artherd
11-14-2007, 11:27 PM
If you 'have too much to loose', then my friends, you have truely already lost.

I have plenty to loose, but I and others like me stood and held fast to doing what we know is legal anyway, despite the risk of persecution. Many of us have seen the fire come down upon us, and many of us continue to do exaclty what we know to be legal still.

To all those out there with PLENTY to loose, who take a stand anyway, I salute you.
-Ben.

artherd
11-14-2007, 11:29 PM
2nd amendment rights, truth, justice and freedom

how much do they cost? thousands of dollars? hundreds of thousands? millions?

priceless.

artherd
11-14-2007, 11:30 PM
I don't have a letter from the DOJ specfically authorizing me to own my kitchen sink, but I do have one authorizing me to own my ZM4's. I feel more confident in the legality of my possessing DSA ZM4 receivers than I do owning anything else.

Frankly, I think one can teach their kids a lot by standing up for what they belive is right, even, nay especially if there may be consequences for doing so.

troyPhD
11-15-2007, 12:19 AM
I hope we're not beginning to criticize the individuals who surrendered their ~$800 OLLs in exchange for dropped charges and avoidance of further accumulation of legal fees that far exceed the cost of the lost firearm itself. Judging by the sentiment in this thread, it sounds as if some might be calling those individuals cowards for not taking the risk and standing up for their rights.

I do believe that each of us should pick our fights carefully and invest in those where we do have significant leverage. To avoid one fight is not necessarily cowardly. In many cases, I would say it demonstrates prudence.

tenpercentfirearms
11-15-2007, 4:53 AM
I hope we're not beginning to criticize the individuals who surrendered their ~$800 OLLs in exchange for dropped charges and avoidance of further accumulation of legal fees that far exceed the cost of the lost firearm itself. Judging by the sentiment in this thread, it sounds as if some might be calling those individuals cowards for not taking the risk and standing up for their rights.

I do believe that each of us should pick our fights carefully and invest in those where we do have significant leverage. To avoid one fight is not necessarily cowardly. In many cases, I would say it demonstrates prudence.

I am not criticizing anyone, but from my read, the criticism seems to be aimed more at those unwilling to even buy an OLL, not those that give theirs up.

Personally, I will never fault a guy for taking a deal instead of fighting it all the way out. I am only responsible for my own actions and decisions.

Mute
11-15-2007, 6:40 AM
I think the criticism is the belief that (and this is just a perception) this is just about guns and that not having OLLs is a small sacrifice not worth fighting for and those of us who are dead set against this are just saber rattlers. To some of us this is more than an issue of guns. It's about a government that treats its law-abiding citizens with absolute contempt. While they flog us with their intrusive laws, they see no need to abide by them when it goes against their desires. This just doesn't sit well with me.

However, I believe each person has to make their own decision and first take care of their family, so for those who choose not to own OLL, I have nothing against them as they must do what is best for them. In the end it is still about freedom and personal choice.

Red_5
11-15-2007, 8:53 AM
What he said! It's not just about guns.

If only I were so articulate...


This is exactly my point, this is what's happened to America. And really it's not just about gun rights... it's about all rights, and what people are willing to do to protect them. And if the average person isn't willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their freedoms, who's going to do it for them? I actually find myself hoping that all this talk I hear about "gun rights" is just a bunch of BS, because if we all really believe that owning a gun is a *right*, then it's pathetic how easy we've made it for the government take our rights away.

The founding fathers risked EVERYTHING they had for freedom and independence, and they had just as much to lose as anyone else here. So when someone says they've got "too much to lose" is just a bull$%#@ excuse. The founders had families, they had land, and they risked everything so that we might sit here bask in the freedom we didn't earn.

Crazed_SS
11-15-2007, 9:05 AM
This is exactly my point, this is what's happened to America. And really it's not just about gun rights... it's about all rights, and what people are willing to do to protect them. And if the average person isn't willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their freedoms, who's going to do it for them? I actually find myself hoping that all this talk I hear about "gun rights" is just a bunch of BS, because if we all really believe that owning a gun is a *right*, then it's pathetic how easy we've made it for the government take our rights away.

The founding fathers risked EVERYTHING they had for freedom and independence, and they had just as much to lose as anyone else here. So when someone says they've got "too much to lose" is just a bull$%#@ excuse. The founders had families, they had land, and they risked everything so that we might sit here bask in the freedom we didn't earn.

If you're not afraid of not losing anything and think being concerned for one's well-being is a BS excuse, can I ask why you even bother with fixed-mags, BBs, and MMGs? Why not just say "screw this!", take a REAL stand, and build a fully functional AR? Nothing right now is physically stopping you from doing it.

Could it be that you're scared if losing your freedom if caught, and for that reason you just sit their and accept unjust gun laws?

M. D. Van Norman
11-15-2007, 9:14 AM
The founding fathers risked EVERYTHING they had for freedom and independence, and they had just as much to lose as anyone else here.

The Founders risked everything, but they also had the Continental Army and France backing them up.

WolfMansDad
11-15-2007, 9:15 AM
To some of us this is more than an issue of guns. It's about a government that treats its law-abiding citizens with absolute contempt. While they flog us with their intrusive laws, they see no need to abide by them when it goes against their desires. This just doesn't sit well with me.

However, I believe each person has to make their own decision and first take care of their family, so for those who choose not to own OLL, I have nothing against them as they must do what is best for them. In the end it is still about freedom and personal choice.

Well said, Mute. Those of you who think this is an isolated issue, and that staying out of it will guarantee your children's future security, haven't been paying attention. Over our kids' future looms the shadow of an overbearing and tyrannical government, one that exercises its authority over its subjects at a whim but recognizes no checks on its own power. Ever heard of habeas corpus, due process, or protection from illegal search and seizure? Our federal government has decided that all of these can be suspended at any time and without any real justification. The right to keep and bear arms? That one we are all familiar with. Freedom of speech? That requires more space than I have here.

Ask your kids how many of these rights they are allowed to exercise in their schools. Our schools, both public and private, condition our kids to accept a tyrannical government, a police state. Most of us don't see this because we were also conditioned. We think it's normal, just like we've come to accept mandatory handgun registration or full-auto bans.

The OLL movement, and in fact the whole right to bear arms issue, is part of a much larger struggle over the nature of government in America. Make no mistake, if we lose this struggle, worse will follow. Your kids will not be safe if the government is not bound by its own laws.

If you have "too much to lose" to buy or keep an OLL, even a stripped lower, no one will hold it against you if you sit this fight out. However, don't think that sticking with your mini-14 or bolt-action hunting rifle will make you any safer than having an OLL. If you are a gun owner, you are a target. If you really want to stay out of this fight, you will have to get rid of all of your guns, not just your stripped lowers. You might also want to comb your house for illegal knives, karate weapons, billy clubs, or "weighted gloves." You did realize that all those things were banned while you weren't looking, didn't you? Giving up some of your weapons, but not all of them, is just appeasing the enemy. It will only embolden them, and pretty soon they'll be back for more.

If you want to stay out of this fight, I won't hold it against you. Everybody has to make their own decisions about where they will draw the line. I just want you to know where that line is and what's really at stake.

WolfMansDad
11-15-2007, 9:19 AM
If you're not afraid of not losing anything and think being concerned for one's well-being is a BS excuse, can I ask why you even bother with fixed-mags, BBs, and MMGs? Why not just say "screw this!", take a REAL stand, and build a fully functional AR? Nothing right now is physically stopping you from doing it.

Could it be that you're scared if losing your freedom if caught, and for that reason you just sit their and accept unjust gun laws?

We still follow the law becuase we still believe the law is important. The law is a social contract between individuals, and between the government and the citizens. If one party decides to break that contract, it is bad. If both parties decide they are no longer bound by it, the social order breaks down.

How could we ask the state of California to abide by the law if we aren't willing to? No, we must continue to abide by the law, and we must demand that the government do so as well.

Edited to add: When an unjust law is passed, you fight WITHIN THE SYSTEM to strike it down. You don't just decide to break the laws you don't like. The capacity to strike down an unjust law is fundamentally why judicial branch of government exists, and why it is separated from the legislative one.

Glock22Fan
11-15-2007, 9:28 AM
I'll fight for your/our right to own these firearms, but owning one myself is pretty far down my list of priorities.

Just because I don't own one, doesn't mean I'm chicken.

4 Brigada
11-15-2007, 9:44 AM
The fight/struggle can be different for everyone as long as we fight together. against the commun injustice, Gun owner rights are just that to me it doesnt matter. OLL today, something else tomorrow. Name calling, point finger and critizing each others position will only serve to divide us, and we all know how that movie ends. Do what you can for the second amendment, every little bit helps.

Crazed_SS
11-15-2007, 9:48 AM
We still follow the law becuase we still believe the law is important. The law is a social contract between individuals, and between the government and the citizens. If one party decides to break that contract, it is bad. If both parties decide they are no longer bound by it, the social order breaks down.

How could we ask the state of California to abide by the law if we aren't willing to? No, we must continue to abide by the law, and we must demand that the government do so as well.

Edited to add: When an unjust law is passed, you fight WITHIN THE SYSTEM to strike it down. You don't just decide to break the laws you don't like. The capacity to strike down an unjust law is fundamentally why judicial branch of government exists, and why it is separated from the legislative one.

Agreed 100%, but I still think what keeps gun owner's within the law is the threat of punishment for breaking it, not because they have some kind of respect for the system :)

Everyone has their own comfort level, even Bwiese has continually discouraged people from messing with 80% receivers because of what he perceives to be murkiness in the law. Of course the people who like to use 80% receivers believe their completely within the law.

Also, regardless of how often people invoke the founding fathers, in reality people do value their security and well-being. What would be the point of freedom with no security? You'd be dead in a week. A balance has to exist.

However, don't think that sticking with your mini-14 or bolt-action hunting rifle will make you any safer than having an OLL

Maybe I'm deluding myself, but today, right now in California, I feel safer owning a Mini-14 or bolt-action rifle vs a Saiga or OLL AR. All one has to do is spend a few hours reading through threads on this board and it's clear that the whole off-list situation is unique. You dont have FFLs scared to transfer Mini-14s and bolt-action rifles. You dont have people being arrested for legally configured Mini-14's. You dont have 8 page threads of people getting arguing whether nr not it's risky to own a Mini-14. :)

That's not to saying owning a Mini-14 or bolt-action rifle is without risk, just that there is less risk when compared to an off-list rifle. Personally, the risk of owning a Mini-14 is acceptable to me, whereas the risk of an off-list rifle isnt..

4 Brigada
11-15-2007, 9:58 AM
Agreed 100%, but I still think what keeps gun owner's within the law is the threat of punishment for breaking it, not because they have some kind of respect for the system


I dont agree with that statement, dont think people are kept honest by fear of punishment. I think you are right about some people and the respect for the system. But honest/non law breaking people have respect for themselfs that keeps them honest. People dont have to be keep "in line" by threats, specially in a free society.

dondo
11-15-2007, 1:28 PM
I dont agree with that statement, dont think people are kept honest by fear of punishment. I think you are right about some people and the respect for the system. But honest/non law breaking people have respect for themselfs that keeps them honest. People dont have to be keep "in line" by threats, specially in a free society.

Well...personally I would go buy a grip of 30 round mags in Vegas and bring them home if it wouldn't make a FELON. So in that respect, the threat of punishment makes me not do that, not some moral responsibility to a law dictating the number of rounds to a magazine. I think CrazedSS has a good point there. OLL's are walking a fine line. I hear nothing but disgust and distaste for the system and its "oppressive" and "tyrannical" ways. A lot of honest and non-law breaking individuals that own OLL's are doing anything they can to squeak closer to owning a legitimate AR. I support it whole heartedly, I just agree with Crazed SS more that the punishment side has a grester effect on the choices we make IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION than honoring the system, the same system that is trying to take them away. Thank you, I will be here all week. Try the meatloaf.

PIRATE14
11-15-2007, 3:19 PM
That's not to saying owning a Mini-14 or bolt-action rifle is without risk, just that there is less risk when compared to an off-list rifle. Personally, the risk of owning a Mini-14 is acceptable to me, whereas the risk of an off-list rifle isnt..

No, but there have been people arrested w/ improperly configured Minis and SKS......there is a false sense of security just cause it's sold in Turners....

We'll hammer them cause they should have known better but.......

There is risk in everything we do.......

Crazed_SS
11-15-2007, 3:38 PM
No, but there have been people arrested w/ improperly configured Minis and SKS......there is a false sense of security just cause it's sold in Turners....



"improperly configured" being the key phrase here. It follows that someone would be arrested for an improperly configured Mini-14, SKS, M1A, etc.
Conversely, with OLLs people are being arrested and having rifles confiscated for properly configured, LEGAL rifles. Big difference.. :)

And yes, there is risk in everything, but somethings are more riskier than others. For example, I'd install a couple bolt-on mods to my car, but I wouldnt throw on nitrous because I wouldnt want to risk damaging the car. There's risk for damage with both modifications, but the risk with the nitrous is much greater.. of course people who use nitrous would say, "As long as it's setup right, youll be fine!" :)

HillBilly
11-15-2007, 6:43 PM
This is exactly my point, this is what's happened to America. And really it's not just about gun rights... it's about all rights, and what people are willing to do to protect them. And if the average person isn't willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their freedoms, who's going to do it for them? I actually find myself hoping that all this talk I hear about "gun rights" is just a bunch of BS, because if we all really believe that owning a gun is a *right*, then it's pathetic how easy we've made it for the government take our rights away.

The founding fathers risked EVERYTHING they had for freedom and independence, and they had just as much to lose as anyone else here. So when someone says they've got "too much to lose" is just a bull$%#@ excuse. The founders had families, they had land, and they risked everything so that we might sit here bask in the freedom we didn't earn.


They also had a little more riding on it that we do here. Let's be honest, What is the ultimate outcome of this "stand" we are speaking of? Rulings are overturned and we get black rifles in all their glory until the next democratic administration, then we do it all over again? Does anyone really expect that California will become Arizona because of this? And is that small gain worth jail time?

Someone above said it well..."Pick your battles". It should never be confused that I am not completely pro 2A. I find it to be the most important right afforded to us by the founding fathers. But stop kidding yourself if you think you are making some heroic stand against the establishment because you use a bullet button in public. Is that really worth fighting a court battle you may win, but will be paying on for the rest of your life? And no, you might not be convicted, but you sure face a shot at rotting there in that cell while they sort it out...hence my reference to BWO. Sorry, I sympathize with him and find it absurd he was even questioned, but he is not advancing my freedom by sitting there.

Perhaps I am just a realist...shooting an OLL at the public range is not my idea of making a stand, and I doubt it is the ideal way to restore our 2A rights. I can do better by donating and volunteering for organizations that protect my rights where it counts, and helping to bring more young people into the love of shooting sports. This is not to undermine people like Arthur and Hector and others who did take a huge risk for us. More power to them...I just don't have the interest in racking up felony charges for you folks!:p

I don't see it that anyone here is advancing my rights because they dare to own a OLL. And with that being said, I never said I don't own an OLL. I am just not going to risk getting caught with one in my car or assembled, and I am not interested in mounting a Ruby Ridge standoff in my cul-de-sac because my rifle is grey area in the eyes of local LEO's, even though I have papers saying it is legal. I just want my kids to grow up safe and happy, and I don't believe this issue is strong enough to risk that for. Now...let's talk about full firearms seizures and the actual complete redaction of our 2A rights, and i'll stand with you fellas WHEN it gets to that point...until then, i'm picking my battles.;)

Bizcuits
11-15-2007, 7:19 PM
I have to admit, this thread has me leaning towards buying a OLL. A few fears have been addressed. Might have to grab a lower with my tax refund.

Bizcuits
11-15-2007, 7:21 PM
I am not interested in mounting a Ruby Ridge standoff in my cul-de-sac

You do know Randy Weaver is a millionaire now right? He stood his ground and paid the price, but did win. He lost his son and his wife though, which is far more then the ultimate price, as one should never out live their own son.

oaklander
11-15-2007, 7:52 PM
I have a mortgage, a professional career, a child, and an ex-wife. I also have several OLLs built up into legal rifles.

Here's some of them:

http://sixaddiction.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/normal_IMAG0121.JPG

dondo
11-15-2007, 8:20 PM
You do know Randy Weaver is a millionaire now right? He stood his ground and paid the price, but did win. He lost his son and his wife though, which is far more then the ultimate price, as one should never out live their own son.
No. Not even close did he win. He lost his wife and son. I know you pointed that out as a foot note to your statement. No matter how you look at it "they" took everything away from him and then what....gave him a couple bucks. He didnt win, he got a severance package and the deal sucks balls. Sorry for weaving out of the lane here.....

dondo
11-15-2007, 8:23 PM
They also had a little more riding on it that we do here. Let's be honest, What is the ultimate outcome of this "stand" we are speaking of? Rulings are overturned and we get black rifles in all their glory until the next democratic administration, then we do it all over again? Does anyone really expect that California will become Arizona because of this? And is that small gain worth jail time?

Someone above said it well..."Pick your battles". It should never be confused that I am not completely pro 2A. I find it to be the most important right afforded to us by the founding fathers. But stop kidding yourself if you think you are making some heroic stand against the establishment because you use a bullet button in public. Is that really worth fighting a court battle you may win, but will be paying on for the rest of your life? And no, you might not be convicted, but you sure face a shot at rotting there in that cell while they sort it out...hence my reference to BWO. Sorry, I sympathize with him and find it absurd he was even questioned, but he is not advancing my freedom by sitting there.

Perhaps I am just a realist...shooting an OLL at the public range is not my idea of making a stand, and I doubt it is the ideal way to restore our 2A rights. I can do better by donating and volunteering for organizations that protect my rights where it counts, and helping to bring more young people into the love of shooting sports. This is not to undermine people like Arthur and Hector and others who did take a huge risk for us. More power to them...I just don't have the interest in racking up felony charges for you folks!:p

I don't see it that anyone here is advancing my rights because they dare to own a OLL. And with that being said, I never said I don't own an OLL. I am just not going to risk getting caught with one in my car or assembled, and I am not interested in mounting a Ruby Ridge standoff in my cul-de-sac because my rifle is grey area in the eyes of local LEO's, even though I have papers saying it is legal. I just want my kids to grow up safe and happy, and I don't believe this issue is strong enough to risk that for. Now...let's talk about full firearms seizures and the actual complete redaction of our 2A rights, and i'll stand with you fellas WHEN it gets to that point...until then, i'm picking my battles.;)

Well said.

PIRATE14
11-15-2007, 8:36 PM
"improperly configured" being the key phrase here. It follows that someone would be arrested for an improperly configured Mini-14, SKS, M1A, etc.
Conversely, with OLLs people are being arrested and having rifles confiscated for properly configured, LEGAL rifles. Big difference.. :)


Well the point being is that the powers that be should be able to descern bwtn the two and not lump them together.........cause, one is legal the other isn't.........not just because you don't like it.....doesn't fly in court.....

Are we farther ahead today....than yesterday....

At what point will everyone rally to the cause.......when the bullets are flyin......what will you be riskin then.......or just a war of words and $$$ in court.....

I've been there when bullets are flyin and it's not much fun..........

hoffmang
11-15-2007, 8:54 PM
Crazed,

I suggest you read some King:

I hope you are able to ace the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/popular_requests/frequentdocs/birmingham.pdf

I put a monsterman or a mag lock on my AR because I'm more useful outside of a jail than inside it right now. In fact, I'd recommend everyone who cares about OLL related issues read that letter. King knew that of which he spoke.

There may come a time when the laws are so manifestly unjust that its worth breaking them. On balance, its very legal to have a correctly configured off list semiautomatic rifle and use it at a range. I do it all the time without any issue.

To be clear, I am not saying that someone who surrenders a rifle to make a bogus charge go away is doing something wrong. I am however challenging the world view of someone who choses not to demand to be treated with respect by his subservient government. They work for us and not vice versa. We all lose sight of that at our peril.

Now for those of you trying to denigrate the "fight" position with "well, it'll all come back with some other new administration" you are really being obtuse. Precedent matters. Taking back large chunks of our right to Keep and Bear Arms in an environment where the country is heading the right direction outside of the 5 bad States is really, really important.

Think about it this way. If everyone on this board took your attitude that the risks were not worth it, we'd have new regulations retroactively banning "legal" SKSes...

I understand some people feel so enfeebled that they don't wish to expose themselves to the risk of owning an OLL. I hope you don't drive to work in the morning where your risk of death is orders of magnitude higher than your risk of arrest for owning an OLL. Fear of OLL's is like fear of flying. You aren't going to die in the plane, but you're actually relatively likely to die in the car on the way to the airport...

-Gene

Bizcuits
11-15-2007, 9:18 PM
No. Not even close did he win. He lost his wife and son. I know you pointed that out as a foot note to your statement. No matter how you look at it "they" took everything away from him and then what....gave him a couple bucks. He didnt win, he got a severance package and the deal sucks balls. Sorry for weaving out of the lane here.....

You obviously got my point. :eek:

dondo
11-15-2007, 9:28 PM
You obviously got my point. :eek:
mmm...I guess I did. Nod and courtsey.

artherd
11-16-2007, 12:07 AM
There is a hugely signifigant difference between doing what is LEGAL, but unloved by LE, and doing something ILLEGAL that really ought to be legal but CLEARLY IS NOT LEGAL.

Confusing the two is to miss the point.

However to answer your question, if I had $100m+ to my name, absolutely I would act to hunt for standing to challenge SB23 on it's face, with the uptmost respect for the principles our government was founded upon. And I absolutely would win.

That said, I merely have sufficent funds at this time to wipe my *** with "series" language once and for all (oh, and a few more upcoming surprises) :D

I am not horribly well off, I have a mortgage and a profession I must continue to work in. I choose to dedicate a fair portion of my income to 2A matters, and to my freedom and civil rights in general. Perhaps it goes back to being written an illegal ticket at 17 and watching the system walk all over me and my under-educated parents.

Perhaps I just don't enjoy being kicked in the proverbial teeth by anyone, wether (or perhaps especially) they have an Exempt plate or not.

-Ben.

If you're not afraid of not losing anything and think being concerned for one's well-being is a BS excuse, can I ask why you even bother with fixed-mags, BBs, and MMGs? Why not just say "screw this!", take a REAL stand, and build a fully functional AR? Nothing right now is physically stopping you from doing it.

Could it be that you're scared if losing your freedom if caught, and for that reason you just sit their and accept unjust gun laws?

artherd
11-16-2007, 12:19 AM
I'll fight for your/our right to own these firearms, but owning one myself is pretty far down my list of priorities.

Just because I don't own one, doesn't mean I'm chicken.

Well put. I pity only people for whom an OLL is a priority, but they are too afraid to persue it.

Those with the means, the desire, and the ability to excercise their freedom, who do not, are the essence of slaves.

Shotgun Man
11-16-2007, 7:36 AM
Crazed,

I suggest you read some King:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/popular_requests/frequentdocs/birmingham.pdf

[...]

I understand some people feel so enfeebled that they don't wish to expose themselves to the risk of owning an OLL. [...]

-Gene

"enfeebled"-- great word. I thought you made it up. I looked it up in the dictionary and discovered it dates from the 14th Century.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/enfeeble

blackrazor
11-16-2007, 8:16 AM
Personally, one of my greatest hopes is that I actually get arrested for possessing an OLL. I don't think it will ever happen, but I wish it would, I really do. I would LOVE to be given the chance to mop the floor with the DOJ/DA. 90% of the reason I own an OLL is for the opportunity to shove it in the face of those who loathe its existance. In a manner of speaking, flaunting ownership of an OLL turns you into a permanent sting operation targeting .gov, the best thing we can hope for is that they fall for it.

Someone above said it well..."Pick your battles".

I disagree. Picking your battles is EXACTLY what the government wants you to do. By "picking your battles" you are playing right into the hands of the Brady center's gun banning strategy. They know that by keeping people divided they can win.

When you say you're "picking your battles", all you're really saying is, you're only going to take a stand for the rights that *you* feel strongly about, and screw the rights of your neighbor. United we stand, divided we fall.

MudCamper
11-16-2007, 8:55 AM
Personally, one of my greatest hopes is that I actually get arrested for possessing an OLL. I don't think it will ever happen, but I wish it would, I really do.

Hey, if you really mean that, here's what you should do: Get a Harley. Strap a couple bandannas full of ammo accross your chest. Sling an AR or two over your back. Then ride around town on your way to the range. That oughta attract some attention.

blackrazor
11-16-2007, 9:33 AM
LOL! Funny you should mention that, a friend of mine and I did almost exactly what you're talking about back in '99, not long after the AW ban passed. We rode a bike a couple of (unloaded) AK's, simply because we knew that it would be one of our last chances to do so before the end of the year. Didn't attract nearly as much attention as we thought, we didn't get pulled over or yelled at or anything, and this was up in the bay area! Go figure... getting arrested for legal behavior is not as easy as you think.

A few months ago I went and stopped a police traffic trap (they were busting people for illegal left hand turns at an intersection) by holding a sign at the corner warning people of the cops. Of course, the cops got really pissed about all that lost revenue (each ticket was $200), and even though they held me there for 45 minutes, they still couldn't figure out how to bust me.

I'm sure that someday some over zealous LEO to make his move and arrest me, and that will be my lucky day. Especially since most of the time I'm setting them up and have a guy nearby with a camcorder and parabolic mic.

P.S. Here's a nice pic of that cop looking through his little rule book trying to find something to charge me with. What a joke!

dondo
11-16-2007, 10:04 AM
I would just like to toss in a thanks to all who are discussing in this thread and keeping everything civil and courteous. It is refreshing to read through the thread and not sift through all the flames. This topic goes right to the heart of the forum itself and everyone is presenting their cases calmly and with a touch of class. Boooyah.

artherd
11-16-2007, 10:08 AM
"enfeebled"-- great word. I thought you made it up. I looked it up in the dictionary and discovered it dates from the 14th Century.


Gene is an old soul!

artherd
11-16-2007, 10:16 AM
A few months ago I went and stopped a police traffic trap (they were busting people for illegal left hand turns at an intersection) by holding a sign at the corner warning people of the cops. Of course, the cops got really pissed about all that lost revenue (each ticket was $200), and even though they held me there for 45 minutes, they still couldn't figure out how to bust me.

I've done the same thing, but had a friend (who works for a local news station :) videotaping me the whole time. Cops were afraid to come witing 20 feet of me, and evnetually left for more fertile revenue grounds.

Earstwhile, I have had 2 vehicles stolen by mexicans in the same town, in just 2 months. You think maybe we could relax the immigration requirements, get these people into the system, and possibly step up oh I don't know REAL CRIME investigations?

No, it's much more profitable to write me tickets, I have to actually pay.

4 Brigada
11-16-2007, 10:20 AM
"enfeebled"-- great word.

I suffer from that condition on occasion but it occurs, the day after enhibriation.

JCG
11-16-2007, 11:50 AM
To those that stated they feel safe with a Mini - 14, I can say from personal experience you are deluding yourself to an extent.

When I was first arrested, the police charged me with AW charges for the M1 carbines with 15 round mags, and my AB 50 registered Barrett 99.

The DA discharged all charges a few weeks later, then refiled the two AW counts on the Saigas.

As someone already said being a gun owner makes you a target.

You should read some of the paperwork that my ex-wife has filed in our custody issue....... "gun nut" "cache of military weapons"............

Addax
11-16-2007, 7:26 PM
+1 Gene!

Everyone, how did the Anti Gun folks and lobby grow in number and size over the years?

They grew in number and strength because they cared enough about their crazy notions that banning all guns was the best thing for all Americans.

Don't we care about our lawful rights and the laws that legally allow Off List Lowers and Off List Rifles as long as they are configured in a California Compliant / Non AW configuration?

The more we rally around our lawful rights to own / posses Off List Firearms, and the more we educate each other and keep each other informed, the more our numbers will grow.

Consider that OLL/OLR's have been comming into the state for over 2 years now, and that there thousands of us gun owners who legally own these rifles.

Don't you think we have a lobby and a following that is going to grow in numbers?

I think we have allot of good people that legally own OLL/OLR's and I truly believe that we have to stick with our commitment to keep our legal firearms.



Crazed,

I suggest you read some King:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/popular_requests/frequentdocs/birmingham.pdf

I put a monsterman or a mag lock on my AR because I'm more useful outside of a jail than inside it right now. In fact, I'd recommend everyone who cares about OLL related issues read that letter. King knew that of which he spoke.

There may come a time when the laws are so manifestly unjust that its worth breaking them. On balance, its very legal to have a correctly configured off list semiautomatic rifle and use it at a range. I do it all the time without any issue.

To be clear, I am not saying that someone who surrenders a rifle to make a bogus charge go away is doing something wrong. I am however challenging the world view of someone who choses not to demand to be treated with respect by his subservient government. They work for us and not vice versa. We all lose sight of that at our peril.

Now for those of you trying to denigrate the "fight" position with "well, it'll all come back with some other new administration" you are really being obtuse. Precedent matters. Taking back large chunks of our right to Keep and Bear Arms in an environment where the country is heading the right direction outside of the 5 bad States is really, really important.

Think about it this way. If everyone on this board took your attitude that the risks were not worth it, we'd have new regulations retroactively banning "legal" SKSes...

I understand some people feel so enfeebled that they don't wish to expose themselves to the risk of owning an OLL. I hope you don't drive to work in the morning where your risk of death is orders of magnitude higher than your risk of arrest for owning an OLL. Fear of OLL's is like fear of flying. You aren't going to die in the plane, but you're actually relatively likely to die in the car on the way to the airport...

-Gene

Sam Hainn
11-16-2007, 8:18 PM
I got half-way through this thread when I realized an unnecessary chorus. What's the need to get rid of these inexpensive Off List Receivers in absolution anyway? If you don't have the means, understanding, stomach, wherewithal and/or capacity to build them into fixed-mag or gripless versions, why build them up at all? the big validator and missing cap to that last sentence is; FOR NOW!! Own the receiver, put it in your safe, ignore it, don't touch it, leave it be, and play with your Uberti Single Action Army replica all day long in view of anyone at the range to vent your shooting enthusiast demons. But keep the cheap receivers in their purgatory. the big pay off will be when you find 6 years from now as we suffer under a federal ban similar to the 94 ban, you will own a 'pre-ban' rifle legally. Do you think you'll always be a CA slave? what happens if you move later after a ban is in effect? you might not be able to buy any OLR in that version of the future.

I understand people not being able to have bank for lawyers. I have empathy for that now more than ever. or maybe they live on such a razor's edge they worry about loss more than gain. I get that. I am not questioning why someone may have second thoughts on it if they think it will cost them their job, reputation, or financial stability for running it out in public. I am extrapolating on Bill's question; just what are you doing that you suspect your house will be raided to a point that they crack open your safe or search your home top to bottom? what is your life like if you fear it will come to a search of your home which would lead to finding a $99 featureless receiver? Be discreet if you must. Wrap it in tin foil and keep it a paperweight. You'd be wiser to keep it that way now and not have regrets later. Remain abreast of the legal changes and you might find yourself taking it out in full view of Chief Bratton in a few short months after-all, once changes settle in. I say stock up on them for the future because these next couple of years may be your only chance.

dondo
11-16-2007, 8:57 PM
I got half-way through this thread when I realized an unnecessary chorus. What's the need to get rid of these inexpensive Off List Receivers in absolution anyway? If you don't have the means, understanding, stomach, wherewithal and/or capacity to build them into fixed-mag or gripless versions, why build them up at all? the big validator and missing cap to that last sentence is; FOR NOW!! Own the receiver, put it in your safe, ignore it, don't touch it, leave it be, and play with your Uberti Single Action Army replica all day long in view of anyone at the range to vent your shooting enthusiast demons. But keep the cheap receivers in their purgatory. the big pay off will be when you find 6 years from now as we suffer under a federal ban similar to the 94 ban, you will own a 'pre-ban' rifle legally. Do you think you'll always be a CA slave? what happens if you move later after a ban is in effect? you might not be able to buy any OLR in that version of the future.

I understand people not being able to have bank for lawyers. I have empathy for that now more than ever. or maybe they live on such a razor's edge they worry about loss more than gain. I get that. I am not questioning why someone may have second thoughts on it if they think it will cost them their job, reputation, or financial stability for running it out in public. I am extrapolating on Bill's question; just what are you doing that you suspect your house will be raided to a point that they crack open your safe or search your home top to bottom? what is your life like if you fear it will come to a search of your home which would lead to finding a $99 featureless receiver? Be discreet if you must. Wrap it in tin foil and keep it a paperweight. You'd be wiser to keep it that way now and not have regrets later. Remain abreast of the legal changes and you might find yourself taking it out in full view of Chief Bratton in a few short months after-all, once changes settle in. I say stock up on them for the future because these next couple of years may be your only chance.

You have to at least get The Medal of Awesomeness for at least laying down some very decent layman terms here. For some reason, your post makes a lot of sense. Not that the others don't and just so ya know, I am completely support OLL's yet I defintiely have compassion for those that have no interest in them regardless of fear or it just not being their cup of tea and I think a lot of posts especially Crazed SS deserve merit and understanding. We are all in the same boat and I think that is what has lent itself to such a civil discussion about something that could easily become a flame fest.. Oh and the medal is pretty cool, its a medium sized solid gold stripper doing a pole dance with a big rainbow ribbon. Put it on your plate carrier.
Also, I was going to refute HOFFMAGS little entry about OLL's and driving to work when three things happened.
1. Those three TYLENOL's I took for my headache are actually 750mg VALIUMs so I am working on short time here before its lights out. Hopefully I will wake up by Monday morning.
2. I started to read the King pdf file and got to like the third paragraph that said "Moreover I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considerd an outsider anywhere within its bounds." I mean the guy is a poet. Thats in the first few paragraphs. I realized at that point I am either in love with HOFFMANG or......ok....Im in ove with HOFFMANG. Oh and yes I had to type that whole quote thing as it would not let me copy and paste...my two typing fingers are sore.
3. I still think your relation bewtween driving to work and OLLs is a tad elementary for a man of your...........social class. You still howevever are awarded the Medal of Awesomeness. Ceremony information will be forwarded through ultra secret detail. First rule of the Medal of Awesomeness is...you don't talk about the Medal of Awesomeness.
Anyway, geat responses. Thanks.

WolfMansDad
11-17-2007, 10:38 AM
I got half-way through this thread when I realized an unnecessary chorus. What's the need to get rid of these inexpensive Off List Receivers in absolution anyway? If you don't have the means, understanding, stomach, wherewithal and/or capacity to build them into fixed-mag or gripless versions, why build them up at all? the big validator and missing cap to that last sentence is; FOR NOW!! Own the receiver, put it in your safe, ignore it, don't touch it, leave it be, and play with your Uberti Single Action Army replica all day long in view of anyone at the range to vent your shooting enthusiast demons. But keep the cheap receivers in their purgatory. the big pay off will be when you find 6 years from now as we suffer under a federal ban similar to the 94 ban, you will own a 'pre-ban' rifle legally. Do you think you'll always be a CA slave? what happens if you move later after a ban is in effect? you might not be able to buy any OLR in that version of the future.

I understand people not being able to have bank for lawyers. I have empathy for that now more than ever. or maybe they live on such a razor's edge they worry about loss more than gain. I get that. I am not questioning why someone may have second thoughts on it if they think it will cost them their job, reputation, or financial stability for running it out in public. I am extrapolating on Bill's question; just what are you doing that you suspect your house will be raided to a point that they crack open your safe or search your home top to bottom? what is your life like if you fear it will come to a search of your home which would lead to finding a $99 featureless receiver? Be discreet if you must. Wrap it in tin foil and keep it a paperweight. You'd be wiser to keep it that way now and not have regrets later. Remain abreast of the legal changes and you might find yourself taking it out in full view of Chief Bratton in a few short months after-all, once changes settle in. I say stock up on them for the future because these next couple of years may be your only chance.

Well said, Sam. Great post!

Right now, stripped lowers have zero risk associated with them. If the day comes when a stripped lower is contraband, that Uberti Single Action won't be far behind.

Rights are like muscles. If you don't exercise them, you lose them.

Teletiger7
11-17-2007, 10:53 AM
I've done the same thing, but had a friend (who works for a local news station :) videotaping me the whole time. Cops were afraid to come witing 20 feet of me, and evnetually left for more fertile revenue grounds.

Earstwhile, I have had 2 vehicles stolen by mexicans in the same town, in just 2 months. You think maybe we could relax the immigration requirements, get these people into the system, and possibly step up oh I don't know REAL CRIME investigations?

No, it's much more profitable to write me tickets, I have to actually pay.


I'm afreaid that is the truth right there. Those thiefs stelling your cars have no motivation to pay money to the system so Law Enforcement can't make much money out of them. They'll only go after them for good PR. But truth is there's more money in it for them to write traffic tickets to people who will actually pay them.

HillBilly
11-17-2007, 11:59 AM
I got half-way through this thread when I realized an unnecessary chorus. What's the need to get rid of these inexpensive Off List Receivers in absolution anyway? If you don't have the means, understanding, stomach, wherewithal and/or capacity to build them into fixed-mag or gripless versions, why build them up at all? the big validator and missing cap to that last sentence is; FOR NOW!! Own the receiver, put it in your safe, ignore it, don't touch it, leave it be, and play with your Uberti Single Action Army replica all day long in view of anyone at the range to vent your shooting enthusiast demons. But keep the cheap receivers in their purgatory. the big pay off will be when you find 6 years from now as we suffer under a federal ban similar to the 94 ban, you will own a 'pre-ban' rifle legally. Do you think you'll always be a CA slave? what happens if you move later after a ban is in effect? you might not be able to buy any OLR in that version of the future.

I understand people not being able to have bank for lawyers. I have empathy for that now more than ever. or maybe they live on such a razor's edge they worry about loss more than gain. I get that. I am not questioning why someone may have second thoughts on it if they think it will cost them their job, reputation, or financial stability for running it out in public. I am extrapolating on Bill's question; just what are you doing that you suspect your house will be raided to a point that they crack open your safe or search your home top to bottom? what is your life like if you fear it will come to a search of your home which would lead to finding a $99 featureless receiver? Be discreet if you must. Wrap it in tin foil and keep it a paperweight. You'd be wiser to keep it that way now and not have regrets later. Remain abreast of the legal changes and you might find yourself taking it out in full view of Chief Bratton in a few short months after-all, once changes settle in. I say stock up on them for the future because these next couple of years may be your only chance.


This I completely agree with and follow. I never meant for anything I posted to discourage anyone from following these measures or owning OLL's...I was more ranting against blatant "Come and get me" machismo...and how such boasting seemed unrealistic for someone with dependents...that's all. Also the apparent disgust at anyone who might rather not go to jail over the fact that their rifle looked evil to the cops was off putting, so I had to speak my mind!

By all means, let me clarify...I think it is a good idea to throw some stripped lowers in the safe and wait it out...In my county, that is unfortunately all I could do while still feeling reasonably comfortable I am not going to get targeted by a police force and DA who appear to be above the law at every turn.;) Feel lucky if you live in places like Kern county and others where the Sheriff is an old hunting buddy and thinks the laws are crazy too! It makes all of this easier.


Also, Wes was another pioneer along with Ben, Bill, Hector and the rest...Thanks again for all you risked and continue to do!

Teletiger7
11-17-2007, 2:51 PM
This I completely agree with and follow. I never meant for anything I posted to discourage anyone from following these measures or owning OLL's...I was more ranting against blatant "Come and get me" machismo...and how such boasting seemed unrealistic for someone with dependents...that's all. Also the apparent disgust at anyone who might rather not go to jail over the fact that their rifle looked evil to the cops was off putting, so I had to speak my mind!

By all means, let me clarify...I think it is a good idea to throw some stripped lowers in the safe and wait it out...In my county, that is unfortunately all I could do while still feeling reasonably comfortable I am not going to get targeted by a police force and DA who appear to be above the law at every turn.;) Feel lucky if you live in places like Kern county and others where the Sheriff is an old hunting buddy and thinks the laws are crazy too! It makes all of this easier.


Also, Wes was another pioneer along with Ben, Bill, Hector and the rest...Thanks again for all you risked and continue to do!


What County do you live in???

blackrazor
11-20-2007, 7:47 AM
I was more ranting against blatant "Come and get me" machismo...and how such boasting seemed unrealistic for someone with dependents...that's all. Also the apparent disgust at anyone who might rather not go to jail over the fact that their rifle looked evil to the cops was off putting, so I had to speak my mind!

Unfortunately, it's attitudes like this which make the 2nd amendment obsolete in our society. If a man isn't even willing to *own* a rifle which the government specifically says is legal, how can you ever expect that same man to bear arms when the time comes? Short answer: you can't.

The whole concept of an armed populace standing against a tyrannical government is just a joke when society is full of people who are afraid to engage in 100% lawful, nanny-state approved activities. Hell, you're surrendering your guns and the government hasn't even asked you to, there's NO WAY you would ever stand up against .gov when they told you to stand down, especially when you are so concerned about the future well being of your dependents.

Here's a couple questions for the OLL-phobes:

1) Just how far does .gov have to go before you're willing to fight back, even if you have dependants? Maybe if a dictator took over the presidency and appointed himself for life? Or perhaps China taking over the US? Or perhaps safety/security is so important to you that there is no limit to how far the gov can tread on your freedoms, and the future freedoms of your "dependants"?

2) When that time comes to fight against tyranny, what do you plan on doing about it? Remember, when the time comes, you will have already given up anything and everything resembling a weapon (ironically to protect your dependants).

Sgt Raven
11-20-2007, 10:13 AM
Unfortunately, it's attitudes like this which make the 2nd amendment obsolete in our society. If a man isn't even willing to *own* a rifle which the government specifically says is legal, how can you ever expect that same man to bear arms when the time comes? Short answer: you can't.

The whole concept of an armed populace standing against a tyrannical government is just a joke when society is full of people who are afraid to engage in 100% lawful, nanny-state approved activities. Hell, you're surrendering your guns and the government hasn't even asked you to, there's NO WAY you would ever stand up against .gov when they told you to stand down, especially when you are so concerned about the future well being of your dependents.

Here's a couple questions for the OLL-phobes:

1) Just how far does .gov have to go before you're willing to fight back, even if you have dependants? Maybe if a dictator took over the presidency and appointed himself for life? Or perhaps China taking over the US? Or perhaps safety/security is so important to you that there is no limit to how far the gov can tread on your freedoms, and the future freedoms of your "dependants"?

2) When that time comes to fight against tyranny, what do you plan on doing about it? Remember, when the time comes, you will have already given up anything and everything resembling a weapon (ironically to protect your dependants).


If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill

Crazed_SS
11-20-2007, 12:31 PM
Unfortunately, it's attitudes like this which make the 2nd amendment obsolete in our society. If a man isn't even willing to *own* a rifle which the government specifically says is legal, how can you ever expect that same man to bear arms when the time comes? Short answer: you can't.

The whole concept of an armed populace standing against a tyrannical government is just a joke when society is full of people who are afraid to engage in 100% lawful, nanny-state approved activities. Hell, you're surrendering your guns and the government hasn't even asked you to, there's NO WAY you would ever stand up against .gov when they told you to stand down, especially when you are so concerned about the future well being of your dependents.

Here's a couple questions for the OLL-phobes:

1) Just how far does .gov have to go before you're willing to fight back, even if you have dependants? Maybe if a dictator took over the presidency and appointed himself for life? Or perhaps China taking over the US? Or perhaps safety/security is so important to you that there is no limit to how far the gov can tread on your freedoms, and the future freedoms of your "dependants"?

2) When that time comes to fight against tyranny, what do you plan on doing about it? Remember, when the time comes, you will have already given up anything and everything resembling a weapon (ironically to protect your dependants).

Wow, so because I dont have an OLL, all is lost? Gimme a break. Just because I dont have a gimped AR doesnt mean anything. I have like 8 guns and I still plan to buy more. Dont tell me I'm giving up my rights. You're giving up the same rights by capitulating to the DOJ with your BB, fixed mags, etc. If you were such the badass, you sieze your "rights" and run a fully-functional AR.. but you wont because you value your "freedom" and dont want to be in jail.

Sounds like you're scared. What was that Ben Franklin quote again?

And if these guns are 100% legal and nanny-state approved, why are we having this conversation? Why has BWO spend 10's of thousands in lawyer fees? Why did swimmingpoolguy let the authorities have his rifle, even after the dropped charges against him, why did CRTguns have to do through all kinds of craziness to defend himself against felony charges? Why is the DOJ still holding the milpitas lowers from over a year ago?

EDIT: And if I had to protect my dependants, a gimped AR would be the absolute last gun I'd be grabbing. I'd take a SKS over an Off-list AR. I'm not a fan of all the comprises involved in owning a legal AR in this state, which is another reason I dont need an OLL anymore.

hoffmang
11-20-2007, 12:59 PM
Crazed,

If there were only 50 OLL owners they could be prosecuted. If there are 50,000 they'll never be bothered.

Want to help or want to let the DOJ continue to cow you?

-Gene

blackrazor
11-20-2007, 1:11 PM
I don't think my DSA AR's are "gimped". No fixed mags for me. A few months ago I threw on an "evil" pistol grip (which took all of about 10 seconds) and used it in a 3-gun match, where is worked better than any SKS. Don't believe me? I'll be happy to show shoot against you any time, I'll use my DSA (again) and you use your SKS. Good luck, you'll need it. I'll even give you 50:1 odds I win.

I guess I'm just not seeing this "compromise" that you're referring to... I have a closet full of AR's (oops, did I say AR's, because I meant OLL's) I didn't have a two years ago, and the last time I checked they all worked better than any SKS.

And if these guns are 100% legal and nanny-state approved, why are we having this conversation? Why has BWO spend 10's of thousands in lawyer fees? Why did swimmingpoolguy let the authorities have his rifle, even after the dropped charges against him, why did CRTguns have to do through all kinds of craziness to defend himself against felony charges? Why is the DOJ still holding the milpitas lowers from over a year ago?


Just because the guns, or ANTHING ELSE you own for that matter, is 100% legal, doesn't mean you won't occasionally have to deal with the "authorities" to protect your property and your rights. Geez, get a little back bone. If you want to be "100% safe" from false/malicious prosecution, you might want to rethink owning any guns...

Crazed_SS
11-20-2007, 1:13 PM
Crazed,

If there were only 50 OLL owners they could be prosecuted. If there are 50,000 they'll never be bothered.


If you're gonna use that reasoning, why doesnt everyone just run real ARs? The DOJ couldnt prosecute everyone right?


Want to help or want to let the DOJ continue to cow you?

-Gene

Ill let the DOJ cow me. :) .. Im good to go with theguns I have.

Also, because I dont want an OLL doesnt mean I cant help. I inform everyone about their legality and everything. I even suggest FFLs to my buddies that facilitate transfers.. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=75844

I just dont want one for myself for two reasons.

1.) Dont like the fact that LE isnt spun up on the whole issue. I'm into cars and I remember when LE would pull everyone over and INCORRECTLY claim any modified exhaust was illegal. A memo was issued by the CHP explaining the law, and suddenly people stopped getting BS exhaust tickets. Why cant the DOJ do this with OLLs?

2.) Too many compromises to build a CA-Legal AR. I understand everyone is able to shoot effectively with their MMG or has no problem changing mags with the BB. I just dont like that stuff. I want my guns to work like they're designed.

hoffmang
11-20-2007, 1:19 PM
If you're gonna use that reasoning, why doesnt everyone just run real ARs? The DOJ couldnt prosecute everyone right?


The King letter I referenced above does a very good job of explaining why I don't think its yet the right time to configure an AR in a way that isn't legal. We do more - just like you're doing - outside of jail than inside on these issues.

-Gene

blackrazor
11-20-2007, 1:21 PM
Ill let the DOJ cow me. .. Im good to go with theguns I have.


Yeah, for now. As soon as the DOJ tells you your guns are illegal, even when they aren't, I know what you're going to do.

Too many compromises to build a CA-Legal AR... I want my guns to work like they're designed.

Well, like I said, I don't have this problem. My guns do work just like they were designed to.

Crazed_SS
11-20-2007, 1:25 PM
I don't think my DSA AR's are "gimped". No fixed mags for me. A few months ago I threw on an "evil" pistol grip (which took all of about 10 seconds) and used it in a 3-gun match, where is worked better than any SKS. Don't believe me? I'll be happy to show shoot against you any time, I'll use my DSA (again) and you use your SKS. Good luck, you'll need it. I'll even give you 50:1 odds I win.

I guess I'm just not seeing this "compromise" that you're referring to... I have a closet full of AR's (oops, did I say AR's, because I meant OLL's) I didn't have a two years ago, and the last time I checked they all worked better than any SKS.


If you're running a MM grip, U-15, BB, fixed-mag, gripless, etc, then you are compromising. You ran a pistol grip in 3-gun? Was this in CA? I assume you're were running a BB? If you were here in San Diego, I'd take your bet. 1:1 odds. I guarantee I'd be faster with a SKS and stripper clips then you would be with an AR and BB.

Just because the guns, or ANTHING ELSE you own for that matter, is 100% legal, doesn't mean you won't occasionally have to deal with the "authorities" to protect your property and your rights. Geez, get a little back bone. If you want to be "100% safe" from false/malicious prosecution, you might want to rethink owning any guns...

Yea, well I'd rather not have to deal with the authorities, especially for something that is supposedly 100% legal.

dondo
11-20-2007, 5:32 PM
Unfortunately, it's attitudes like this which make the 2nd amendment obsolete in our society. If a man isn't even willing to *own* a rifle which the government specifically says is legal, how can you ever expect that same man to bear arms when the time comes? Short answer: you can't.

The whole concept of an armed populace standing against a tyrannical government is just a joke when society is full of people who are afraid to engage in 100% lawful, nanny-state approved activities. Hell, you're surrendering your guns and the government hasn't even asked you to, there's NO WAY you would ever stand up against .gov when they told you to stand down, especially when you are so concerned about the future well being of your dependents.

Here's a couple questions for the OLL-phobes:

1) Just how far does .gov have to go before you're willing to fight back, even if you have dependants? Maybe if a dictator took over the presidency and appointed himself for life? Or perhaps China taking over the US? Or perhaps safety/security is so important to you that there is no limit to how far the gov can tread on your freedoms, and the future freedoms of your "dependants"?

2) When that time comes to fight against tyranny, what do you plan on doing about it? Remember, when the time comes, you will have already given up anything and everything resembling a weapon (ironically to protect your dependants).

Right...a guy who doesn't want to own an OLL but yet has a safe full of other guns is rendering the 2nd amendment obsolete. Ridiculous statement. I am not calling YOU ridiculous however I think your all or nothing stance is unrealistic to some people. FACT- OLL's have cost some thousands of dollars and time. Maybe some cannot afford that, and don't throw in the founding fathers or affording time under a mythical tyrannical dictator and keep it to OLL's and TODAY. Its the argument that goes from the fight today to "what are you going to do when" is crap. And dismissing gun owners who do not own OLLS for whatever reason as not being on the front lines of the fight for the 2nd amendment by way of being a member of the NRA, donating money, writing letters etc, is downright insulting. I have a ton of respect for your passion for the argument, I just do not agree with degree to which to determine f someone is fighting or standing by. I am in no way trying to insult you or bash you. Just lettin ya know.

HillBilly
11-20-2007, 6:09 PM
Unfortunately, it's attitudes like this which make the 2nd amendment obsolete in our society. If a man isn't even willing to *own* a rifle which the government specifically says is legal, how can you ever expect that same man to bear arms when the time comes? Short answer: you can't.

The whole concept of an armed populace standing against a tyrannical government is just a joke when society is full of people who are afraid to engage in 100% lawful, nanny-state approved activities. Hell, you're surrendering your guns and the government hasn't even asked you to, there's NO WAY you would ever stand up against .gov when they told you to stand down, especially when you are so concerned about the future well being of your dependents.

Here's a couple questions for the OLL-phobes:

1) Just how far does .gov have to go before you're willing to fight back, even if you have dependants? Maybe if a dictator took over the presidency and appointed himself for life? Or perhaps China taking over the US? Or perhaps safety/security is so important to you that there is no limit to how far the gov can tread on your freedoms, and the future freedoms of your "dependants"?

2) When that time comes to fight against tyranny, what do you plan on doing about it? Remember, when the time comes, you will have already given up anything and everything resembling a weapon (ironically to protect your dependants).


You are only proving my point. This statement is absolutely irresponsible and absurd. Someday, you will learn that there are more important things in this life than having an AR-15. Until then, this chest beating has a familiar smell to it...

Ronco
11-20-2007, 6:23 PM
I just don't get it. I have a letter SPECIFICALLY stating, in black and white, signed by Alison Merrilees herself, that the DSA ZM4 is legal to purchase and own in CA so long as it doesn't have any offending features. It just doesn't get any more clear cut than that folks. Now, if you want to be super, uber paranoid, just buy one of the named OLL's, like the ZM4, or the JP, or any of the other ones. I can't even think of anything in this state that I'm more sure you CAN own than a DOJ approved OLL. I don't have a letter from the DOJ specfically authorizing me to own my kitchen sink, but I do have one authorizing me to own my ZM4's. I feel more confident in the legality of my possessing DSA ZM4 receivers than I do owning anything else.

Can you post the letter (if possible in .pdf format). White-out anything you want to keep private. I'm sure I and others would be interested to see/read it. :popcorn:


Thanks.

PIRATE14
11-20-2007, 6:30 PM
Can you post the letter (if possible in .pdf format). White-out anything you want to keep private. I'm sure I and others would be interested to see/read it. :popcorn:


Thanks.

There are several letters for the OLLS........not just one.........:43:

RRangel
11-20-2007, 6:45 PM
Can you post the letter (if possible in .pdf format). White-out anything you want to keep private. I'm sure I and others would be interested to see/read it. :popcorn:


Thanks.

Well, just so you know these letters are nothing new. If you weren't around when this thing first started I guess you wouldn't know. Many people wrote for clarification and got those letters.

M. Sage
11-20-2007, 6:53 PM
If you're running a MM grip, U-15, BB, fixed-mag, gripless, etc, then you are compromising.

Running a MM or U15 does not gimp a rifle. I've seen registered full-feature AWs against gripless builds and neither seems to have a clear advantage.

MonsterMan
11-20-2007, 7:06 PM
There is a Calgunner who competes in a lot of 3 gun matches and he places in the top 5 almost every time using a MMG. I don't think the MMG will keep you from having a completely functional rifle. I don't even notice it on my rifle. I feels totally natural for me to shoulder my rifle with it on there. But then again, I am very used to it.

Dr. Peter Venkman
11-20-2007, 7:16 PM
Running a MM or U15 does not gimp a rifle. I've seen registered full-feature AWs against gripless builds and neither seems to have a clear advantage.

I think that his argument is more focused on the fact that the AR-15 owners are skirting around the law instead of 'openly' fight it carrying around AWs.

Crazed_SS
11-20-2007, 7:20 PM
Running a MM or U15 does not gimp a rifle. I've seen registered full-feature AWs against gripless builds and neither seems to have a clear advantage.

So if you had the choice between running a real pistol gripped AR vs a MMG, which one would you choose?

Be honest.

hoffmang
11-20-2007, 7:28 PM
I would certainly prefer a pistol grip. You might have noticed that I'm actively involved in working toward making that happen.

However, I can tell you that when I wander into my collection for what to take to the range, my MMG'ed ARs and my Bullet Button ARs get to the range a heck of a lot more than my SKS or even my SU-16.

-Gene

blackrazor
11-20-2007, 9:00 PM
So if you had the choice between running a real pistol gripped AR vs a MMG, which one would you choose?

Be honest.


Honestly, I would use the "real" pistol grip. But that's not the right question. The right question is, would I rather use a MMG OLL, or an SKS? And the answer to that question is easy: the MMG OLL wins by a landslide.

Even better, if you ever find yourself in the ever-popular "SHTF" scenario and you really *need* your OLL, well, all it takes is an allen wrench and a few seconds and you have a real deal AR. When it comes to the OLL vs. SKS debate, I know which one I'd rather have in the closet...

Pvt. Cowboy
11-20-2007, 9:42 PM
I think that his argument is more focused on the fact that the AR-15 owners are skirting around the law instead of 'openly' fight it carrying around AWs.

When I was in CA, I was very secretive about if I had any guns at all, much less registered AWs. Never talked about guns at work. Only after I sniffed out one Calguns poster that I worked with did I feel comfortable with talking to him about guns. I would have never known about him if it weren't for the big red 'Hk' sticker on his vehicle in the company parking lot. Otherwise, I think it's always good advice to keep your cards close to your chest. We've all seen what happens to Californians who leave evidence of their gun ownership laying around: Web pages opened up in the college library, YouTube videos, MySpace pages, etc. One wrong move and the cops could be taking you into custody.

I gotta admit though that one of the coolest things I've seen on this site were the photos of the recent 'Build Party' where the guy just strung up tarps to block the neighbor's view of his driveway while he invited everyone over to make CA legal AKs like a damn Pakistani arms bazaar. That's so brave that I couldn't even imagine doing that. Gotta hand it to whomever did that, it took real balls.

For those who want to act like I did when I lived there, be secretive in all your dealings. Never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut. Boris is listening. Not once did I ever allow myself to be seen with a contoured rifle case going to my vehicle, post pictures of my guns on the web, make an offhand comment about guns, or anything else that would lead the people I dealt with on a daily basis to believe that I owned guns. I also registered my AWs and from time to time would wonder when the CA-DOJ was just gonna come through the windows when I least expected it. I lived for 18 years like that with little flashes of paranoia since I first registered my AWs in 1990 and again in 2000.

Paranoia sucks, but it's good practice. To those with a more cavalier flair living uncloseted about their 'Evil Rifle' ownership under the supposed protection of the letter of the law, I salute you and wish you all the best.

artherd
11-20-2007, 11:32 PM
Wrap it in tin foil and keep it a paperweight. You'd be wiser to keep it that way now and not have regrets later. Remain abreast of the legal changes and you might find yourself taking it out in full view of Chief Bratton in a few short months after-all, once changes settle in.
And when that day comes, do not forget to get down on your knees and thank the likes of blackrazor, hoffmang, bwiese, tenpercentfirearms, PIRATE14 and others who brought the fight to the forefront, so that you could live as you choose with relatively little risk.

artherd
11-20-2007, 11:39 PM
I was more ranting against blatant "Come and get me" machismo...and how such boasting seemed unrealistic for someone with dependents...that's all.
Just how bad would DOJ's abuses of power have to get to make it... realistic?

artherd
11-20-2007, 11:43 PM
And if these guns are 100% legal and nanny-state approved, why are we having this conversation? Why has BWO spend 10's of thousands in lawyer fees? Why did swimmingpoolguy let the authorities have his rifle, even after the dropped charges against him, why did CRTguns have to do through all kinds of craziness to defend himself against felony charges? Why is the DOJ still holding the milpitas lowers from over a year ago?

Crazed_SS, I was once illegally ticket for drag racing (presumably against myself, there was no-one else present.) I had to defend, at my own cost.

Would you have me sell my cars and walk?

artherd
11-20-2007, 11:50 PM
Can you post the letter (if possible in .pdf format). White-out anything you want to keep private. I'm sure I and others would be interested to see/read it. :popcorn:


Thanks.

Yo:
http://cdglobal.net/gun/CTR-02-DOJ-legal.jpg

http://cdglobal.net/gun/ctr-02-2-blur.jpg

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 4:54 AM
Crazed_SS, I was once illegally ticket for drag racing (presumably against myself, there was no-one else present.) I had to defend, at my own cost.

Would you have me sell my cars and walk?

Traffic citations are a little different than felony firearms charges dont you think?

M. Sage
11-21-2007, 5:11 AM
So if you had the choice between running a real pistol gripped AR vs a MMG, which one would you choose?

Be honest.

I've had that choice on my Romy. When I went to Texas and New Mexico I put the pistol grip on. I've got to say that mostly it was to deflect the inevitable "WTF is that!?" questions from the locals.

Yeah, I'd prefer a proper pistol grip. Do I feel that the pistol grip is better? Not a whole lot, if any. Heck, I can control my Romy one-handed with the MMG, so what's the point, right?

About the only thing the MMG does is make it hard to use the bayonet properly.

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 5:24 AM
Honestly, I would use the "real" pistol grip. But that's not the right question. The right question is, would I rather use a MMG OLL, or an SKS? And the answer to that question is easy: the MMG OLL wins by a landslide.

Even better, if you ever find yourself in the ever-popular "SHTF" scenario and you really *need* your OLL, well, all it takes is an allen wrench and a few seconds and you have a real deal AR. When it comes to the OLL vs. SKS debate, I know which one I'd rather have in the closet...

If I'm ever in a real SHTF scenario and for some bizzare reason I need to engage people with a rifle, I have already have a semi-auto, magazine-fed rifle that doesnt require any modifications to become 100% functional.

The SKS is easier to reload than a BB rifle since there's no fumbling with loose rounds and trying to press a little button when you're already running and gunning. Much easier to just slam a stripper clip in and rock n roll.

The SKS gives me more control than a MMG rifle.. Maybe it's because I learned to the shoot the M16 in the Marines, but I just cant work with the MMG.

I still have my data book and it says:
When firing the M16A2, the shooter shall maintain a firm grip on the
weapon at all times. The strong or firing hand will grasp the pistol grip. A
constant rearward pressure will be applied with the firing hand to keep the
weapon in the shoulder pocket.

I cannot maintain a firm grip with the MMG because my shooting hand thumb isnt providing positive support for the weapon which prevents me from getting a real solid shooting position. For that reason, I would not want to run and gun with with a MMG rifle. If we're doing a short range 3-gun type match, I'd rather the SKS since I'd be able to have a firm grip and present the weapon faster. The U-15 seems like the most functional way to build an OLL rifle.. dont know why it isnt more popular.

We're way off-topic now :)

blackrazor
11-21-2007, 5:45 AM
If I'm ever in a real SHTF scenario and for some bizzare reason I need to engage people with a rifle, I have already have a semi-auto, magazine-fed rifle that doesnt require any modifications to become 100% functional.

I guess I just don't see it that way. I can throw the pistol grip on my rifle faster than I can load one mag, and about as fast as I can throw the upper on the lower. If screwing on the pistol grip counts as a "modification" then so does loading the thing.

dondo
11-21-2007, 5:50 AM
And when that day comes, do not forget to get down on your knees and thank the likes of blackrazor, hoffmang, bwiese, tenpercentfirearms, PIRATE14 and others who brought the fight to the forefront, so that you could live as you choose with relatively little risk.
I love your drama. Noone is getting on their knees unless money is changing hands and then..well then your breaking entirley different laws. I would NEVER take anything away from the people you mentioned, but lets not act like tye have surrounded the city and are feeding our babies. In the same sentence I have spent a coule grand with PIRATE and I totally support HOFFMAG and BWEISE and all the others who's brains function on a much higher level of operation than mine. Now that the asskissing is out of the way, lets get back to the topic.

Ronco
11-21-2007, 9:37 AM
Yo:
http://cdglobal.net/gun/CTR-02-DOJ-legal.jpg

http://cdglobal.net/gun/ctr-02-2-blur.jpg

Thanks Ben.

Nice Kitchen! I better not let my wife see this. She may get some ideas. Then I'll have even less money to spend. :D

Oh and nice rifle.

hoffmang
11-21-2007, 9:43 AM
Thanks Ben.

Nice Kitchen! I better not let my wife see this. She may get some ideas. Then I'll have even less money to spend. :D

Oh and nice rifle.

We're now totally OT, but if you like that Kitchen (or if she does) Ben is in the business of making those Kitchens happen...

-Gene

DedEye
11-21-2007, 10:02 AM
We're now totally OT, but if you like that Kitchen (or if she does) Ben is in the business of making those Kitchens happen...

-Gene

I thought he was about to get in the business of making those rifles happen ;).

Kestryll
11-21-2007, 10:29 AM
Why is this an issue?
It's really very simple.

If you're scared because you think there might be a potential for legal issues, don't buy one.

If you're not, buy one.

What the hell else is there to this?


To address a couple of the 2A concerns.
Unfortunately, it's attitudes like this which make the 2nd amendment obsolete in our society. If a man isn't even willing to *own* a rifle which the government specifically says is legal, how can you ever expect that same man to bear arms when the time comes? Short answer: you can't.

The whole concept of an armed populace standing against a tyrannical government is just a joke when society is full of people who are afraid to engage in 100% lawful, nanny-state approved activities. Hell, you're surrendering your guns and the government hasn't even asked you to, there's NO WAY you would ever stand up against .gov when they told you to stand down, especially when you are so concerned about the future well being of your dependents.


You are only proving my point. This statement is absolutely irresponsible and absurd. Someday, you will learn that there are more important things in this life than having an AR-15. Until then, this chest beating has a familiar smell to it...
You're right, there is more to it then having an AR-15, sadly you do not seem to see what that 'more' is.
It is requiring that the law, and those who make it, follow the founders desire to ensure that our inherent rights are secured.
What you call chest beating is NOT about owning an AR-15, it is about voicing to those who think they rule us that we are not serf or slaves but free men with inherent rights not given but secured by the Constitution.

If you truly believe that to stand up, be counted and demand, by vote, petition, litigation or whatever is "absolutely irresponsible and absurd" then I really don't know what else to say.

Right...a guy who doesn't want to own an OLL but yet has a safe full of other guns is rendering the 2nd amendment obsolete.
Wrong point to debate. It's not an issue of people not wanting to own an OLL, it's an issue of those who want to but won't out of fear.
Ridiculous statement. I am not calling YOU ridiculous however I think your all or nothing stance is unrealistic to some people. FACT- OLL's have cost some thousands of dollars and time. Maybe some cannot afford that, and don't throw in the founding fathers or affording time under a mythical tyrannical dictator and keep it to OLL's and TODAY.
Sorry, discounting the examples and sacrifices of the founding father doesn't fly. If only as an example of what is necessary to secure and hold your inherent rights the founders have a large part in this. As for OLLs today, your Second Amendment rights are being shredded in this State. OLLs are not the be all and end all of this fight, they are however a large component and one that gets traction under our feet to continue the race from here.
No matter how much you want to belittle or diminish the need to risk some to gain all, that is what will ALWAYS be required for free men to remain free and many here are willing to take that step forward

Its the argument that goes from the fight today to "what are you going to do when" is crap.
Learn from the past, project and prepare for the future or be run over by both.

Traffic citations are a little different than felony firearms charges dont you think?
So what level of illegality is acceptable? Where do you draw the line?

Is it okay to ban some handguns because they hold more ammo than others? Beretta 92's are bad but Colt SAAs are fine? It's just another case of degrees I guess.

artherd
11-21-2007, 4:50 PM
Traffic citations are a little different than felony firearms charges dont you think?

Actually, no.

The charges I faced at 17 were misdemeanor (as opposed to mere infractions.)

And now with AB 2728, AW charges are likely to be misdemeanors as well.


You get outta bed in the morning, and you're mixed up in something, from there it's just a matter of degrees...

artherd
11-21-2007, 4:53 PM
I love your drama. In the same sentence I have spent a coule grand with PIRATE and I totally support HOFFMAG and BWEISE and all the others who's brains function on a much higher level of operation than mine. Now that the asskissing is out of the way, lets get back to the topic.

Call it what you want, but without those people, you and those who sit inside waiting for the world to change around them would be stuck with SU-16s (and worse than that, a DOJ who thinks they are judge, jury, and executioner), and you know it.

artherd
11-21-2007, 4:58 PM
Thanks Ben.

Nice Kitchen! I better not let my wife see this. She may get some ideas. Then I'll have even less money to spend. :D

Oh and nice rifle.
Thanks Ronco! I'm not yet, but hopefully soon to BE in the business of making those rifles happen. So far it's just been pleasure! :D

PS: We were still working on that kitchen in the pic but thanks there too! I really recommend the double oven; from afar I thought they were a trifle, yet now I cannot imagine life without it! Not bad for the country cottage eh?

dondo
11-21-2007, 5:32 PM
Call it what you want, but without those people, you and those who sit inside waiting for the world to change around them would be stuck with SU-16s (and worse than that, a DOJ who thinks they are judge, jury, and executioner), and you know it.
I guess that statement would be true if I did not own OLL's and refused to acknowledge the efforts of the people mentioned. However, brother, neither of those are true. You figure it out. Listen, I see the point of the guy who has a family and that concern for his family OR WHATEVER reason outweighs his concerns for the OLL. I cannot see how it makes him less of a soldier in the battle for the 2nd amendment. You guys want to align yourselves with the founding fathers, you should really go do reenactments and wear some powder wigs. I just don't get , and I keep reading the insane comments. that if your not owning OLL's your sitting on the couch. Somehow they are "the ones" complacent with the "tyrannical and oppressive" California government. Its crap. Like I said, its not an all or nothing position to me.

WolfMansDad
11-21-2007, 5:36 PM
And if these guns are 100% legal and nanny-state approved, why are we having this conversation? Why has BWO spend 10's of thousands in lawyer fees? Why did swimmingpoolguy let the authorities have his rifle, even after the dropped charges against him, why did CRTguns have to do through all kinds of craziness to defend himself against felony charges? Why is the DOJ still holding the milpitas lowers from over a year ago?

Crazed, I appreciate your point, but what I don't think you realize is that owning an off-list rifle is only slightly riskier than owning any gun at all. Getting rid of that stripped lower - but keeping your other eight guns - will not reduce your risk of running afoul of the government at all. You will still be a target, and those who would oppress you will be emboldened by your act of appeasement.

How many kids have we heard of who have been suspended for having a drawing or a picture of a firearm in school? Do you remember the girl who got suspended from her high school after a box of shotgun shells was found in her car? She was on a trap/skeet team, hardly an activity that flaunts the law. This kind of thing is not isolated in our school system. It is a reflection of a broader trend in the "adult" world, and it affects all of us. Remember the surprise parking-lot searches in Oklahoma? Have you been following the Boston story, where police plan to go house to house to search for firearms? If no crime has been committed, they promise to only confiscate the weapons. Only confiscate!

We know about BlackwaterOPS, Swimmingpoolguy, CRTguns, and the Milpitas business because they are part of our community. We came together to help them out when they ran afoul of our oppressive state government. How many guys go through similar crises but are never heard from here because they aren't on this forum? I suspect they outnumber our cases by a lot. I'll reiterate. BWO would have been in the same amount of trouble with or without his off-list rifles. He was targeted for being a gun owner and a believer in freedom, not for the specific make of his rifles. If he had played it safe, stuck with a mini-14, and never gotten involved with this forum, he wouldn't have had the support we were able to give him.

You guys who believe there are still "safe" guns to own don't realize the lateness of the hour.

4 Brigada
11-21-2007, 5:52 PM
You guys who believe there are still "safe" guns to own don't realize the lateness of the hour.


Unfortunately, I believe that to be a very valid statement, specially in CA.

Addax
11-21-2007, 6:03 PM
+1 ZILLION

If anyone Dros'd a firearm in your name, you are a potential target, so you have risk weather you have an OLL or not, the risk may be higher because of the now huge visibility of the OLL/OLR's, but it is still a risk even if you own a M1A or a Bolt Action Rifle.

The Electronic Dros that is sent to DOJ shows your name, address, phone#, DL# etc. plus the dealer(s) who have Dros'd you.

No matter if you purchased an Off List Lower, or a M1A rifle, or a Lever Action Winchester, the know how many times you have purchased a long gun or hand gun and from where. They can eventually find out what you own, if they legally obtain the right to confiscate to obtain the records from the dealers you purchased or transfered firearms from.

This is where we need to stand up for our rights, and fight the good fight, weather we fight it by providing financial support to those in need, to fight for our legal rights in the courts, to get the laws changed, to gain more support, and above all to keep buying more OLL's and rifles.

Not to sound cliche, but we are only as strong as our weakest link in the chain.




Crazed, I appreciate your point, but what I don't think you realize is that owning an off-list rifle is only slightly riskier than owning any gun at all. Getting rid of that stripped lower - but keeping your other eight guns - will not reduce your risk of running afoul of the government at all. You will still be a target, and those who would oppress you will be emboldened by your act of appeasement.

How many kids have we heard of who have been suspended for having a drawing or a picture of a firearm in school? Do you remember the girl who got suspended from her high school after a box of shotgun shells was found in her car? She was on a trap/skeet team, hardly an activity that flaunts the law. This kind of thing is not isolated in our school system. It is a reflection of a broader trend in the "adult" world, and it affects all of us. Remember the surprise parking-lot searches in Oklahoma? Have you been following the Boston story, where police plan to go house to house to search for firearms? If no crime has been committed, they promise to only confiscate the weapons. Only confiscate!

We know about BlackwaterOPS, Swimmingpoolguy, CRTguns, and the Milpitas business because they are part of our community. We came together to help them out when they ran afoul of our oppressive state government. How many guys go through similar crises but are never heard from here because they aren't on this forum? I suspect they outnumber our cases by a lot. I'll reiterate. BWO would have been in the same amount of trouble with or without his off-list rifles. He was targeted for being a gun owner and a believer in freedom, not for the specific make of his rifles. If he had played it safe, stuck with a mini-14, and never gotten involved with this forum, he wouldn't have had the support we were able to give him.

You guys who believe there are still "safe" guns to own don't realize the lateness of the hour.

HillBilly
11-21-2007, 7:15 PM
Just how bad would DOJ's abuses of power have to get to make it... realistic?


More so that this. I guess we will all just have to agree to disagree, because it seems that people are actually of the mindset that the practice of owning an off list rifle is somehow on the same par as, say, VOTING. I find these rights in entirely different leagues, and the legality of owning an OLL is not the end all be all decision of 2A rights.

I guess I am just not as into guns as some of the people on here. I also obviously do not fit in with the majority here (Whom I feel will mostly whistle a different tune when confronted with a nice prison term), because I find the "death before they get my weapons" the exact opposite attitude that I feel advances our cause.

If the DOJ reversed it's statements in the letters and started arresting people with OLL's, I would not be surprised, and I surely would never even contemplate that this now means Armageddon is at hand and the man will pay with blood, or in a more probable scenario, go to jail. My lower(s) would have simply "been thrown into the ocean on my last fishing trip", but I am not going to shoot the cop at the door asking about it.

Again, I appreciate those who are so into this, but I guess I am just not. I own them, but will I go to jail for them? Nope. And while we are being honest, I won't go to jail for any of my guns. They might "disappear" if things go that bad, but I am no hero. Just some kids Dad, and a weak-minded follower to you folks.:rolleyes:

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 7:20 PM
Crazed, I appreciate your point, but what I don't think you realize is that owning an off-list rifle is only slightly riskier than owning any gun at all. Getting rid of that stripped lower - but keeping your other eight guns - will not reduce your risk of running afoul of the government at all. You will still be a target, and those who would oppress you will be emboldened by your act of appeasement.

How many kids have we heard of who have been suspended for having a drawing or a picture of a firearm in school? Do you remember the girl who got suspended from her high school after a box of shotgun shells was found in her car? She was on a trap/skeet team, hardly an activity that flaunts the law. This kind of thing is not isolated in our school system. It is a reflection of a broader trend in the "adult" world, and it affects all of us. Remember the surprise parking-lot searches in Oklahoma? Have you been following the Boston story, where police plan to go house to house to search for firearms? If no crime has been committed, they promise to only confiscate the weapons. Only confiscate!

We know about BlackwaterOPS, Swimmingpoolguy, CRTguns, and the Milpitas business because they are part of our community. We came together to help them out when they ran afoul of our oppressive state government. How many guys go through similar crises but are never heard from here because they aren't on this forum? I suspect they outnumber our cases by a lot. I'll reiterate. BWO would have been in the same amount of trouble with or without his off-list rifles. He was targeted for being a gun owner and a believer in freedom, not for the specific make of his rifles. If he had played it safe, stuck with a mini-14, and never gotten involved with this forum, he wouldn't have had the support we were able to give him.

You guys who believe there are still "safe" guns to own don't realize the lateness of the hour.

Agreed, being a gun owner I am already a target. As such, I'd rather make myself less of a target by owning a firearm that has a "contreversial" legal status.

Ill tell you what.. When the DOJ starts confiscating Mini-14s from FFLs and seizing shipments of M1A's, Ill sell you my M1A for 50 bucks.

Im serious. When M1As start causing the issues that OLLs have, I will sell you mine for 50 USD. :)

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 7:27 PM
You get outta bed in the morning, and you're mixed up in something, from there it's just a matter of degrees...

Exactly. And an Off-list rifle is a degree that is too far for me. Your mileage may vary :)

Like has been said 1000 times already, everyone picks their battles. Ill live vicariously through you guys.. Supposedly 10's of thousands of lowers have been transferred. One less person wont hurt "the movement" .. You got enough people..

SemiAutoSam
11-21-2007, 7:35 PM
Sure it does.:rolleyes:

This is what makes it nice to have dual residency in free states.

What they do not know about they cannot confiscate and wouldnt be looking for anyway.

Wolverines!!!!
http://www.racingunion.org/Data/binary/wolverines.jpg


The Electronic Dros that is sent to DOJ shows your name, address, phone#, DL# etc. plus the dealer(s) who have Dros'd you.

AJAX22
11-21-2007, 8:12 PM
I call Dibs on crazed's M1A for $50

I'll even pay DROS ;)

seriously though, the DOJ knows who many of us are and where many of us live, If you think your one stripped OLL is going to cause them pause, remember that there are alot of us who constitute better targets.

If any of you have doubts or second thoughts, I'll take your lowers off your hands at your convenience. I have five or so uppers that I've been putting off getting lowers for.


The OLL fight has gone a long way in ensuring that non evil looking rifles are left alone. Remember the guy with the M1A that had a flash hider on it? We used to get hassled over having preban high cap mags for our ruger 10/22's and mini14's (My friends and I got so sick of the hassle we used to hide the mags untill we were out in the middle of nowhere and we NEVER took them to the range)

Things have changed alot in the last few years... things could change back if we don't stay vigilant.
If Hillary makes it to the whitehouse in 08... you might be making good on that offer to sell me that M1A after all...

artherd
11-21-2007, 8:36 PM
Those who's viewpoints you 'see' (but apparently do not share either? Then why are we having this discussion? :D ) are:

1) Lulled into complacency by years of trouble-free firearm ownership, make no mistake the ADAs by and large hate guns of any sort.

2) Overplaying the danger of OLLs versus just about anything else

3) Missing the entire point, that if one is unwilling to 'stand up' a little by buying a paperweight that we all know is perfectly legal, then what ARE you willing to do for what is right? Very little for the sounds of it, and that is in the end is what irks me a little bit.

I bet you guys pay all your parking tickets too, legal or not. If you got a letter in the mail tomorrow that said you had to call the City before you could pee, would you?

I cannot believe you can in one sentence cast doubt upon the mettle of those who have OLLs, then in the next claim OLL ownership is such a foolhardy risk?


I guess that statement would be true if I did not own OLL's and refused to acknowledge the efforts of the people mentioned. However, brother, neither of those are true. You figure it out. Listen, I see the point of the guy who has a family and that concern for his family OR WHATEVER reason outweighs his concerns for the OLL. I cannot see how it makes him less of a soldier in the battle for the 2nd amendment. You guys want to align yourselves with the founding fathers, you should really go do reenactments and wear some powder wigs. I just don't get , and I keep reading the insane comments. that if your not owning OLL's your sitting on the couch. Somehow they are "the ones" complacent with the "tyrannical and oppressive" California government. Its crap. Like I said, its not an all or nothing position to me.

artherd
11-21-2007, 8:45 PM
You make some perfectly reasonable and short-sightedly wise compromises. Compromises I am largely unwilling to make. (most on this forum know I have been somewhat in your hypothetical position, so I am hardly speaking out of turn.)

However you dress it up or justify it, you're trading liberty for security. That idea does not so much bother me as disappoint.

I think we can leave it at that.

More so that this. I guess we will all just have to agree to disagree, because it seems that people are actually of the mindset that the practice of owning an off list rifle is somehow on the same par as, say, VOTING. I find these rights in entirely different leagues, and the legality of owning an OLL is not the end all be all decision of 2A rights.

I guess I am just not as into guns as some of the people on here. I also obviously do not fit in with the majority here (Whom I feel will mostly whistle a different tune when confronted with a nice prison term), because I find the "death before they get my weapons" the exact opposite attitude that I feel advances our cause.

If the DOJ reversed it's statements in the letters and started arresting people with OLL's, I would not be surprised, and I surely would never even contemplate that this now means Armageddon is at hand and the man will pay with blood, or in a more probable scenario, go to jail. My lower(s) would have simply "been thrown into the ocean on my last fishing trip", but I am not going to shoot the cop at the door asking about it.

Again, I appreciate those who are so into this, but I guess I am just not. I own them, but will I go to jail for them? Nope. And while we are being honest, I won't go to jail for any of my guns. They might "disappear" if things go that bad, but I am no hero. Just some kids Dad, and a weak-minded follower to you folks.:rolleyes:

artherd
11-21-2007, 8:49 PM
Agreed, being a gun owner I am already a target. As such, I'd rather make myself less of a target by owning a firearm that has a "contreversial" legal status.

Im serious. When M1As start causing the issues that OLLs have, I will sell you mine for 50 USD. :)

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2006/07/heads_up_for_ca.php
http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/m14.html

Check for $50 is on the way!

artherd
11-21-2007, 8:57 PM
Ok guys, I'm pretty well done here.

Tell me you're unwilling to exercise your rights; because you've got kids. I ask you what BETTER reason to exercise your rights!

Just don't expect me to buy it when you ask for my support in your cowardice. I dare one of you to claim I am chest-beating and would fold under pressure.

M. Sage
11-21-2007, 9:01 PM
Agreed, being a gun owner I am already a target. As such, I'd rather make myself less of a target by owning a firearm that has a "contreversial" legal status.

Question: Do you "hide" your gun ownership from people?

dondo
11-21-2007, 9:05 PM
I bet you guys pay all your parking tickets too, legal or not. If you got a letter in the mail tomorrow that said you had to call the City before you could pee, would you?
Its those terrific condescending comments that make you a superstar. Shine on. If I am an OLL owner, several in fact, and yet I can understand or at least sympathize with another mans choice not to own one, does that make me on the side of the fight, or a complacent cow stuffing his face with processed american cheese and spoonfuls of mayonaisse? Let me know if I am on the team.

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 9:06 PM
Remember the guy with the M1A that had a flash hider on it?

A M1A with a flash-hider is a category-3 assault weapon, like a OLL with a pistol grip and detachable mag.

When was the last time someone's legally configured M1A was confiscated by authorities who claiming it was an AW? Why isnt BWO's SOCOM listed on his criminal complaint?

We can argue about this forever, but it's obvious to me that the OLL issue is unique. Other firearms dont have the hangups that offlist stuff does. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here :)

Steyr_223
11-21-2007, 9:09 PM
See my Sig line!

G17GUY
11-21-2007, 9:11 PM
Exactly. And an Off-list rifle is a degree that is too far for me. Your mileage may vary :)

Like has been said 1000 times already, everyone picks their battles. Ill live vicariously through you guys.. Supposedly 10's of thousands of lowers have been transferred. One less person wont hurt "the movement" .. You got enough people..

Your logic and reasoning is beyond me.

“The presence of a paradox is always a symptom that some part of our fundamental understanding of a subject is critically flawed.”

http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/~tb/essay.pdf

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 9:11 PM
Question: Do you "hide" your gun ownership from people?

Nope, go to my myspace page and you can see a pic of my M1A right there up front. There's pics of me at the shooting at the range on there and a pic of my new MC Operator. I just took a new female friend of mine to the range last week and she had a blast.. even posted pics of herself shooting. Keep in mind this girl starting off saying, "I dont see why anyone needs a gun"

I talk gun stuff at work and all my co-workers no I have guns. Every single person at work knows I have guns and comes to me for questions of what they should buy, what's legal, where to buy, etc. I've turned one guy who was adamant about not having a gun towards wanting to get a handgun and SKS.

My other buddy at work wants a SOCOM and yet another one wants to get a Remington 870 and XD Subcompact. All these people never considered guns and now they're seriously into it.

I just helped my buddy build up his OLL from parts we got at Ammo Bros last week.. So please dont tell me I'm not helping "the cause" because I dont want/need an OLL. I think I do my part and I dont think not wanting an OLL makes me any less of a gun owner than any of you.

Dr. Peter Venkman
11-21-2007, 9:11 PM
...I don't own an OLL because I don't want one. At least a CA-15 that is.

How's that? lol

dondo
11-21-2007, 9:16 PM
Nope, go to my myspace page and you can see a pic of my M1A right there up front. There's pics of me at the shooting at the range on there and a pic of my new MC Operator. I just took a new female friend of mine to the range last week and she had a blast.. even posted pics of herself shooting. Keep in mind this girl starting off saying, "I dont see why anyone needs a gun"

I talk gun stuff at work and all my co-workers no I have guns. Every single person at work knows I have guns and comes to me for questions of what they should buy, what's legal, where to buy, etc. I've turned one guy who was adamant about not having a gun towards wanting to get a handgun and SKS.

My other buddy at work wants a SOCOM and yet another one wants to get a Remington 870 and XD Subcompact. All these people never considered guns and now they're seriously into it.

I just helped my buddy build up his OLL from parts we got at Ammo Bros last week.. So please dont tell me I'm not helping "the cause" because I dont want/need an OLL. I think I do my part and I dont think not wanting an OLL makes me any less of a gun owner than any of you.
I completely agree with you.

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 9:25 PM
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2006/07/heads_up_for_ca.php
http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/m14.html

Check for $50 is on the way!

Please post some CA-specific cases please where people with LEGALLY CONFIGURED M1As have had legal problems similar to those who have had to surrender their OLL, spends 10's of thousands of legal defense, had the DOJ take their rifle, etc. I've been reading this board for about 2 years now and I cant recall one.

Ok guys, I'm pretty well done here.

Tell me you're unwilling to exercise your rights; because you've got kids. I ask you what BETTER reason to exercise your rights!

Just don't expect me to buy it when you ask for my support in your cowardice. I dare one of you to claim I am chest-beating and would fold under pressure.

Wtf are you talking about? No one is asking for your support. We're asking you to at least respect our position and not call us cowards. I could call you a coward right now for giving into the DOJ and running a gimped rifle.

Im not gonna do that because I understand that you dont run a real AR because you dont want to go to prison. It's perfectly reasonable for you to forgo some of your liberty right now by choosing a CA compliant build in order to maintain your security.

Discretion is the better part of valour

dondo
11-21-2007, 9:31 PM
Ok guys, I'm pretty well done here.

Tell me you're unwilling to exercise your rights; because you've got kids. I ask you what BETTER reason to exercise your rights!

Just don't expect me to buy it when you ask for my support in your cowardice. I dare one of you to claim I am chest-beating and would fold under pressure.
The funny thing is, noone is asking you to change your mind. Noone is asking for your support. A simple dialog. Get some rest, your chest must be sore. But what do I know, being a coward and all. Boo!

M. Sage
11-21-2007, 9:31 PM
Nope, go to my myspace page and you can see a pic of my M1A right there up front.

Got pics of my Romy all over (Myspace, here). Took it to work, welded the scope rail to the side of the receiver just in the doorway of a (residential) garage next to a bus stop near Golden Gate Park in SF. Took it through SFO and had my case opened and checked by TSA and had the airline employee carrying the case to the plane go ga-ga over it (and tell me he really "like the carbines. Armalites are ok, good for ambushes...") No hassles, nobody's kicked my door down, haven't been on the wrong end of a cop's gun...

I'm just not seeing the risks as being that great.

Crazed_SS
11-21-2007, 9:37 PM
Got pics of my Romy all over (Myspace, here). Took it to work, welded the scope rail to the side of the receiver just in the doorway of a (residential) garage next to a bus stop near Golden Gate Park in SF. Took it through SFO and had my case opened and checked by TSA and had the airline employee carrying the case to the plane go ga-ga over it (and tell me he really "like the carbines. Armalites are ok, good for ambushes...") No hassles, nobody's kicked my door down, haven't been on the wrong end of a cop's gun...

I'm just not seeing the risks as being that great.

I agree with you, honestly the the risks really arent that great. Still I dont feel comfortable, and in addition to that, I really dont like the compromises inherent in offlist ARs. Honestly, I bought my lower in the hopes that it'd be listed and I'd get to register it.. I know I know.. I'm selfish

Since AB2728 passed, I really saw absolutely no reason to keep it around.

Sure I guess hillary might invoke her almighty evil liberal democrat powers and federally ban all evil guns, but such a ban wont come out of nowhere .. there will be some forewarning. In the unlikely event that happens, maybe Ill go pick up a couple AR and AK receivers before the ban hits :)

4 Brigada
11-21-2007, 9:41 PM
Im just slow on the uptake or what. Why should it be risky to own a legal gun built on a OLL?. I dont think that anyone on any of these post made reference to having an illegal AW or a listed receiver built gun. So the question of risk is based on the fear of enforcement agency going against its own directives that make that gun legal and confiscating and arresting the individual? Seems that there would be lots a of safeguards to prevent that from happening

artherd
11-21-2007, 9:42 PM
If I am an OLL owner, several in fact, and yet I can understand or at least sympathize with another mans choice not to own one, does that make me on the side of the fight, or a complacent cow stuffing his face with processed american cheese and spoonfuls of mayonaisse? Let me know if I am on the team.

I don't know but now I'm hungry!

Kestryll
11-21-2007, 9:43 PM
And this thread begins it's spiral down the drain.

I think by now we all know where everyone stands and what they think so other than picking away at each other for their views let's call it done.

As to the risks, if any, of OLL ownership, that is a determination and choice everyone has to make, and live with, on their own.

All I have to say is this.
Any reward worth having is accompanied by a risk worth taking and taking that risk is often rewarding in it's own right.
Each man has to decide for himself what risks he will take on behalf of his future and what he is willing to endure for the security of his present.