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View Full Version : ART v. Super Sniper?


DigglerD
11-11-2007, 12:16 PM
Hey all. I just picked up a M1A with some match grade components. I am now looking into optics. I haven't done much long range shooting and don't want to blow the bank on optics out the gate.

I want to be able to use the scope from close up distances ~100 yards out to about ~500+ yards. I know the Super Sniper is a fixed optic so that has me a little worried but I haven't really heard much about the ART scope (other than it's the original M21 scope).

I also really like the warranty that Leupold offers but I don't know if I'm ready to drop $1k on optics yet... ($500 maybe).

I am open to any and all constructive comments. Thanks!


Currently I am looking at the Leatherwood ART
http://www.leatherwoodoptics.com/index-leatherwood.html
http://www.hi-luxoptics.com/lftsde1-cc.jpg

and the Super Sniper
http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-sniper-rifle-scopes.aspx
http://www.swfa.com/images/product/medium/SS10X42M.jpg

Prc329
11-11-2007, 12:27 PM
I have owned a couple of ss and they are very good. Once you start looking at higher end scopes you will see the issues with the ss but it will get the job done, especially at those distances. I would actually go with this guy

http://www.libertyoptics.com/index.html?lang=en-us&target=p26.html?lmd=39173.826389

It may be more then you are looking to pay but should take you from cqb to 1000.

I have no experience with ART scopes. Also calling Scott will probably get you a better price as well as the updated exposed knob version.

bwiese
11-11-2007, 9:13 PM
The newer ART scope is a Chinese scope. I would not put it in same league as even a SuperSniper.

Save your pennies and get a Leupold or IOR or US Optics scope and quality mounts.

Timberwolf
11-11-2007, 9:18 PM
You need a scope that will withstand the stress a semi puts on it - forget the ART - at the least a SS will fit the bill - there has been many M1A with them - from there look at Leupy MK4, Nikon Tactical, Nightforce, IOR or US Optics.

For your price range, <500.00, go with the SS.

DigglerD
11-11-2007, 9:28 PM
You need a scope that will withstand the stress a semi puts on it - forget the ART - at the least a SS will fit the bill - there has been many M1A with them - from there look at Leupy MK4, Nikon Tactical, Nightforce, IOR or US Optics.

For your price range, <500.00, go with the SS.

That's what it's starting to sound like... so from there.

Have any specific rings in mind? I'm thinking I will want a quick release mount so I can convert to irons without trouble if I should feel so inclined. There is SOOO much stuff out there and reading it all only gets you moore confused.

I was told the 10x SS (it comes in several flavors) is the way to go for 100 - 500 yards and that going with the 16x would provide too much magnification.

BTW: I hear everyone on the higher end models... just don't want to spend $1k on optics as a long range beginner.

jkasandiego
11-11-2007, 9:29 PM
you also need a good scopemount. Sadlak or ARMS are the best that you can find for your M1a.

Prc329
11-11-2007, 9:34 PM
That's what it's starting to sound like... so from there.

Have any specific rings in mind? I'm thinking I will want a quick release mount so I can convert to irons without trouble if I should feel so inclined. There is SOOO much stuff out there and reading it all only gets you moore confused.

I was told the 10x SS (it comes in several flavors) is the way to go for 100 - 500 yards and that going with the 16x would provide too much magnification.

BTW: I hear everyone on the higher end models... just don't want to spend $1k on optics as a long range beginner.

I know from Experience the Saldek mount has a channel in it that allows you to use Iron Sights with a scope mounted. You are also going to need some sort of cheek rest since the scope will be way to high to use the stock comb. Unless you are getting a JAE-100. I like IOR and Badger Rings. Burris eXtreme Tactical rings work well also. They are not quick release but that is not needed with the Saldek and a few of the other mounts.

As Timberwolf and many others told me. You only cry once. It is often better to save up and but the higher end and never need to buy another one. That being said the SS 10x is a great beginner scope as is the Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40 mildot with side focus and is actually cheaper then the SS and a variable optic with better glass. The SS has nicer knobs though but they can be finicky if you have to re-zero the knobs.

Whitesmoke
11-11-2007, 10:30 PM
Here's mine.....shoots between 1/2-3/4 MOA with my loads. Shoots 1 MOA with FGMM.

Leupold 4.5x14x50mm LR/T mil-dot with ARMS quick release rings and and ARMS mount.

They start at about $699 and go up from there for the LR/T's.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-mark-4-4-5-14x40mm-pr-long-range-rifle-scope.html

Oh...I recommend staying with 40mm...as my scope is super close to the heat shield.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/rvoyles/m14008.jpg

OpticsPlus
11-12-2007, 12:55 AM
Like others have said stay away from ART. The SuperSniper is nice for the money but I don't like the fixed magnification. We carry a full line of Leupold, Nikon, Simmons and others and have the lowest prices. We would be more than happy to earn your business and help you choose the right scope.

Http://www.ShootForLess.com

rksimple
11-12-2007, 6:16 AM
For the super sniper price, you could get the Nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 with SF and mildot reticle. Much better glass for the money.

If you still want a fixed 10x, the SS offers nothing over the Bushnell 3200 10x except a higher price.

Prc329
11-12-2007, 6:37 AM
I always forget about the 3200. That is a nice scope with better knobs IMHO.

DigglerD
11-12-2007, 7:30 AM
you also need a good scopemount. Sadlak or ARMS are the best that you can find for your M1a.

I know from Experience the Saldek mount has a channel in it that allows you to use Iron Sights with a scope mounted. You are also going to need some sort of cheek rest since the scope will be way to high to use the stock comb. Unless you are getting a JAE-100. I like IOR and Badger Rings. Burris eXtreme Tactical rings work well also. They are not quick release but that is not needed with the Saldek and a few of the other mounts.


Thanks all for the volumes of information. For the stock and mount, I bought the M1A / M21 that was in the classifieds last week so it already has an ARMS mount with an M21 adjustable cheek piece stock. Fow now, I am in the market for good optics / mount and ammo :D

I was told the Lupy was the only scope that comes near (although not in) my price range that's worth owning. Looks like there may be others. I'll check out the Nikon and give Optics+ a call.

Prc329
11-12-2007, 7:52 AM
Leupold has a good reputation but IMHO it is not always deserved. I owned that Nikon and only sold it because I had to sell the rifle. It is a very good scope and will leave that $500 is good shape to buy ammo.

CavTrooper
11-12-2007, 8:05 AM
For the super sniper price, you could get the Nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 with SF and mildot reticle. Much better glass for the money.
If you still want a fixed 10x, the SS offers nothing over the Bushnell 3200 10x except a higher price.

The Nikons are great, I prefer Nikon over most other brands of scopes. That being said, the buckmaster does not have the adjustment knobs that "tactical" scopes have. If you want to use the reticle for hold-offthen thats not a problem for you, but if you want to learn to dial in elevation and windage, you want a scope with the knobs.

The Bushnell scope is a fine scope as well, has knobs, good reticle, clear glass, etc. However, it does not have the adjustment range that the SS scope has. For 500 and under, it would be fine, even out a bit further, but if you want to have the maximum options for elevation and windage adjustments the SS is better.

In summary:

The Buckmaster is great but it has limited capabilities.
The Bushnell is good, better option than the Buckmaster.
The SS scope is a dang fine scope for the money, cant go wrong.
You will eventually upgrade. Leupold, Nikon, USO, S&B, all are better with a higher price tag.
Save your pennies!

Prc329
11-12-2007, 8:12 AM
rksimple used his 3200 to 1000 yards with no problem. He was using a pretty flat shooting 155 scenar load so that may have helped.

Timberwolf
11-12-2007, 8:22 AM
While discussing the lower end scopes such as Buckmaster and the 3200 one word of caution should be expressed. This scope will be mounted on an M1A not a bolt gun. The M1A (or any semi for that matter) puts more stress on a scope than a bolt gun due to the forces exerted during its cycle. That said though I've seen 3200s, Buckmasters etc on boltguns give excellant results and service I have to question if they're stout enough to last on a M1A. Just food for thought.

Whitesmoke
11-12-2007, 8:25 AM
For the super sniper price, you could get the Nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 with SF and mildot reticle. Much better glass for the money.

If you still want a fixed 10x, the SS offers nothing over the Bushnell 3200 10x except a higher price.

My brother in law just bought a 4.5-14 Nikon, he likes it.....I've looked through those and it's nice glass. Thats a good way to go on a budget.

maxicon
11-12-2007, 8:31 AM
For beginning optics, I'd definitely recommend a variable scope over a fixed. The extra flexibility goes a long way in helping you figure out what works best for you.

There are plenty of good scopes under $500, but you'll need a list of must-have vs. nice-to-have options to see if you can fit one in. Mil-dot's easy enough to get, but those target turrets definitely add a bit more, and illumination can do the same if you care about it. For long-range shooting, you may need the extra adjustment a 30mm tube will give you.

Make up a chart of critical features and a list of scopes that fill the bill, and it'll narrow it down pretty well.

DigglerD
11-12-2007, 8:47 AM
For beginning optics, I'd definitely recommend a variable scope over a fixed. The extra flexibility goes a long way in helping you figure out what works best for you.

There are plenty of good scopes under $500, but you'll need a list of must-have vs. nice-to-have options to see if you can fit one in. Mil-dot's easy enough to get, but those target turrets definitely add a bit more, and illumination can do the same if you care about it. For long-range shooting, you may need the extra adjustment a 30mm tube will give you.

Make up a chart of critical features and a list of scopes that fill the bill, and it'll narrow it down pretty well.

Hmmm..

Would like:

Mil Dot
Marked Turrets
100 - 500 (maybe more?) range
Durability

Would be nice...

Variable magnification
Illumination
Good Service Warranty


Essentially, I am a beginner that doesn't want to break the bank on something I am only learning. I want to learn the ability to somewhat quickly acquire targets from 1 - 500 (maybe more) yards and put down consistent shots. Not really looking to do too much bench rest (other than what's required to learn the basics).

Prc329
11-12-2007, 8:56 AM
http://www.snipercentral.com/menace45.htm

I have no experience with these guys but I keep reading they are good for the money. They are suppose to offer what is called an MP20 reticle which is pretty similar to the Mp8 reticle.

DigglerD
11-12-2007, 9:35 AM
http://www.snipercentral.com/menace45.htm

I have no experience with these guys but I keep reading they are good for the money. They are suppose to offer what is called an MP20 reticle which is pretty similar to the Mp8 reticle.

Wow, that looks like it covers everything... Given the, Menace 4.5-18x56 and Menace 4-14x44FFP, what kind of range delta would I be looking at between the two? I'm thinking the 4.5-18x56 might be overkill... no?

CavTrooper
11-12-2007, 10:04 AM
Going with the Bushnell theme, in a variable power scope, I would seriously consider this one:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9838-184-bushnell-5-15x40-elite-3200-rifle-scope.aspx
Its an outstanding scope for the money!
As far as holding up on a M1A, they sell the .50BMG rifles with the Bushnell 10x scope installed, I think the Bushnells will hold up just fine.;)
PS- I personally wouldnt buy the Menace scope.

Timberwolf
11-12-2007, 10:07 AM
Looking at the two Menaces I'd choose the 4-14X44 FFP because of the FFP.

rksimple
11-12-2007, 10:13 AM
While discussing the lower end scopes such as Buckmaster and the 3200 one word of caution should be expressed. This scope will be mounted on an M1A not a bolt gun. The M1A (or any semi for that matter) puts more stress on a scope than a bolt gun due to the forces exerted during its cycle. That said though I've seen 3200s, Buckmasters etc on boltguns give excellant results and service I have to question if they're stout enough to last on a M1A. Just food for thought.

Doesn't barret put the 3200 on their m82's? Recoil is not a problem for the 3200.

The knobs on the buckmaster ARE finger adjustable, zeroable, and even have stadia lines to identify what revolution you're on. They're just not big and tacticool, if that matters to you.

Timberwolf
11-12-2007, 10:18 AM
I should get out more, didn't know they used the 3200 on Barretts - last one I saw had a Mk4 16X on it.

By the way I just bought a 10X 3200 for use on a .22LR training rifle I'm putting together - they're pretty nice.

rksimple
11-12-2007, 11:40 AM
I should get out more, didn't know they used the 3200 on Barretts - last one I saw had a Mk4 16X on it.

By the way I just bought a 10X 3200 for use on a .22LR training rifle I'm putting together - they're pretty nice.

I asked as a true question:confused:. I'm pretty sure they do, and I've seen a few with the 3200's on them. I've read about Barrett doing such, but don't know for a fact.

Timberwolf
11-12-2007, 11:52 AM
I asked as a true question:confused:. I'm pretty sure they do, and I've seen a few with the 3200's on them. I've read about Barrett doing such, but don't know for a fact.

My bad, thought it was a statement . . . ooopsie . . . . I don't know though

simon_sw
11-12-2007, 12:09 PM
Wow that Menace 56mm Objective one sounds like a good deal. I didn't think it was going to be released before the end of year considering how alot of vendors always say a tenative release date and it seems to end up with the product being released six months after the initial quote.

Anyone think the Falcon Menace and SWFA SS scopes are made in the same factory abroad, just different names on them due to the importers/final assembly people? The construction of both seems very similar with just minor milling/ knob changes to make it look different.

maxicon
11-12-2007, 1:58 PM
An affordable option with good quality, good support, and tactical features is the Burris Fullfield II Tactical scopes. The FFII has good glass, is solid, and Burris provides very good support and a lifetime warranty. The FFII Tactical has low-profile target knobs and a combo mil-dot and bullet drop reticle, and prices range from $210 to $480. It's not up to Nightforce or Leupold Mk4 level, but doesn't cost like them either. They're only a 1" tube, so whether they've got enough adjustment will depend on the range and load.

http://www.swfa.com/c-1108-burris-fullfield-ii-tactical-rifle-scopes.aspx

Detailed description of the knobs and reticle:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/fftactical.html

DigglerD
11-13-2007, 1:08 PM
Here's mine.....shoots between 1/2-3/4 MOA with my loads. Shoots 1 MOA with FGMM.

Leupold 4.5x14x50mm LR/T mil-dot with ARMS quick release rings and and ARMS mount

Starting with a Buckmaster and then likely moving up from there.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/nikon-riflescope-buckmasters-4-14x40.html

What height rings will I need for a 40 mil on an M1A?

I prefer a quick detatch style...

Whitesmoke
11-14-2007, 8:54 PM
The ARMS 22 low rings will work with the 40 mm perfectly with the ARMS 18 mount.....I'm using the low with my 50mm....but it's damn close to touching. I doubt you will regret the Nikon.....

Starting with a Buckmaster and then likely moving up from there.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/nikon-riflescope-buckmasters-4-14x40.html

What height rings will I need for a 40 mil on an M1A?

I prefer a quick detatch style...

5968
11-19-2007, 6:50 PM
The Nikons are great, I prefer Nikon over most other brands of scopes. That being said, the buckmaster does not have the adjustment knobs that "tactical" scopes have. If you want to use the reticle for hold-offthen thats not a problem for you, but if you want to learn to dial in elevation and windage, you want a scope with the knobs.

The Bushnell scope is a fine scope as well, has knobs, good reticle, clear glass, etc. However, it does not have the adjustment range that the SS scope has. For 500 and under, it would be fine, even out a bit further, but if you want to have the maximum options for elevation and windage adjustments the SS is better.

In summary:

The Buckmaster is great but it has limited capabilities.
The Bushnell is good, better option than the Buckmaster.
The SS scope is a dang fine scope for the money, cant go wrong.
You will eventually upgrade. Leupold, Nikon, USO, S&B, all are better with a higher price tag.
Save your pennies!

My Buckmaster came with an extra set of knobs, cool tactical Knobs!!

DigglerD
11-19-2007, 9:26 PM
My Buckmaster came with an extra set of knobs, cool tactical Knobs!!

Just got mine today... no extra knobs :-(

where can I buy them?

hellaguy
11-22-2007, 6:27 AM
+1 for the Bushnell 3200 10x. I have one on a RRA Varmint A4. Simple no frills mil-dot scope that cant be beat for price (-$200). A good starter scope you wont regret having bought and makes a good backup up/beater when you upgrade. Leaves plenty of moola left over for a good mount too. Internet says Barrett put them on their M99 .50 bolt gun packages so it should be strong enough for the M1A.

5968
11-22-2007, 5:45 PM
Just got mine today... no extra knobs :-(

where can I buy them?

Where did you get your scope from. I got mine from Midway.

DigglerD
11-22-2007, 9:06 PM
Where did you get your scope from. I got mine from Midway.

SWFA... guess I shoulda shopped around...

Jarhead
11-23-2007, 7:27 AM
then you have:

http://www.usoptics.com/

http://www.unertloptics.com/scopes.aspx#target

5968
11-25-2007, 5:17 PM
Hey all. I just picked up a M1A with some match grade components. I am now looking into optics. I haven't done much long range shooting and don't want to blow the bank on optics out the gate.

I want to be able to use the scope from close up distances ~100 yards out to about ~500+ yards. I know the Super Sniper is a fixed optic so that has me a little worried but I haven't really heard much about the ART scope (other than it's the original M21 scope).

I also really like the warranty that Leupold offers but I don't know if I'm ready to drop $1k on optics yet... ($500 maybe).

I am open to any and all constructive comments. Thanks!


Currently I am looking at the Leatherwood ART
http://www.leatherwoodoptics.com/index-leatherwood.html
http://www.hi-luxoptics.com/lftsde1-cc.jpg

and the Super Sniper
http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-sniper-rifle-scopes.aspx
http://www.swfa.com/images/product/medium/SS10X42M.jpg

If you are going to get one of these scopes, I would go with the SS. I have one on my M1A and haven't had any problems with it; however I have a friend that put an ART on his M1A and broke it within a couple hundred rounds. His M1A now wears a SS too.