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View Full Version : Shop turned away SU-16CA


zaitcev
11-09-2007, 4:23 PM
I bought a Kel-Tec SU-16CA (or, rather, paid for it and waited 10 days), but when I arrived to receive it, the shop owner refused to release it because of the threaded barrel. The thread protector cap was not permanently affixed on the unit. He called the CA DOJ to make the determination, but they were confused in their response, one DOJ officer said it's an illegal weapon, other said it was legal. The guy did not want to take the risk of being found to sell illegal weapons (understandably).

My attorney informed me that CA Penal Code 12276.1 (a) (1) does not prohibit SU-16CA, I passed it on, but this was not enough for the shop. The dealer claimed that the threaded barrel is prohibited by other stature, but was unable to produce a citation.

At this point I elected for a refund (sans $35: $10 dealer's fee and $25 DROC).

It is somewhat academic, but does anyone know if a stature prohibiting threaded barrel on a rifle exist, and if yes, what its reference might be? No, I'm not looking for a legal advice at forums, just at a reference or citation to pass to my attorney.

Thanks,
-- Pete

{Update 11/10 -- Thanks everyone for replies. Thread went for 4 pages! The consensus
is that there's no other law or regulation in effect that prohibits threaded barrels on
rifles. I suppose I should trust lawer if he says it's legal instead of trolling on the net.

I think my foresight to withhold the name of the shop has proved wise, some of the
replies were downright nasty. Hello, Internet.

The attorney I mentioned suggested that I visit the Irvington Arms. I'm going to do
just that. Too bad I cannot reuse the DROC.

Last point, about M1As. Actually, there were a few of them on display in the shop.
The gentleman in question made a special point that their brakes were attached
"permanently", with a cross pin.}

sierratangofoxtrotunion
11-09-2007, 4:28 PM
IANAL. I'm 99.9% sure a threaded barrel is just fine. My AR has a threaded barrel: of course it would, after I removed the flash hider from the upper.

Crazed_SS
11-09-2007, 4:29 PM
Umm threaded barrels are a no-no on pistols.

arguy15
11-09-2007, 4:30 PM
What shop? So, we can take our bussiness elsewhere.

Guns R Tools
11-09-2007, 4:30 PM
shop is confused the law with handgun.
In rifle thread is ok, M1A comes whit muzzle brake, threaded of course.

PLINK
11-09-2007, 4:31 PM
Threads on a rifle barrel are fine.

The FFL is thinking about threaded semi auto pistol barrels, when installed, make them AW's by CA laws.

kilword
11-09-2007, 4:32 PM
rifle threaded barrels are fine its just what you have attached to them is what can make them illegal.

c good
11-09-2007, 4:32 PM
The guy is a tool and a moron. Threaded barrel restrictions only apply to handguns. What does the guy think the end of an M1A barrel looks like? They are perfectly legal and so is your Kel-Tec. The guy owes you $35.00 and an aplogy for not knowing his business. There may some small nuances in the law that I'm unaware of but the SU-16 does NOT have any of them. They are sold everyday at Turner's Outdoors and they are one of the most conservative when it comes to interpreting laws and what they will or will not sell. Go get your money back. HTH c good

JawBone
11-09-2007, 4:34 PM
There are no restrictions in CA on threaded barrels for rifles.

Either the DOJ agent was confused and did not know that the Federal AW Ban EXPIRED in 2004 (even then you would need another feature) or thought you were asking about a pistol.

It boils my blood that the friggin DOJ can't give a simple straight answer on this. Clowns.

CSDGuy
11-09-2007, 4:35 PM
Umm threaded barrels are a no-no on pistols.Not on rifles... Maybe the shop was thinking of the now long DEAD Federal AWB...

Toolbox X
11-09-2007, 4:35 PM
This is just one more example of the two worst people you can ask about gun laws: Cops and Gun Shop Owners

mecam
11-09-2007, 4:43 PM
CA gun laws are so F'd up even the DOJ is confused...:D

xfilterx
11-09-2007, 4:53 PM
Buy my Kel-Tec....it's in the Private Firearms Sales section.

Fjold
11-09-2007, 5:06 PM
Something that you better think about when you're doing business with this FFL:

What other gunlaws is this dealer ignorant about? Is he going to put you at risk in some other way through his lack of knowledge?

akjunkie
11-09-2007, 5:13 PM
which gunshop was this????????

jandmtv
11-09-2007, 5:15 PM
you wana hear about gun store owners and workers not knowing what their talkin about, here it is, i was at a gun store in burbank, but i wont say the name. the worker and owner swore to me that a ar15 with a bullet button on it is still illegal if you remove the mag using the bb with evil features on. they were telling me that the bb doesnt make it ok to remove the mag while you have evil features on it. and that people had gotten arrested for it in the past, which i think is total crap.

Shane916
11-09-2007, 5:19 PM
He called the CA DOJ to make the determination, but they were confused in their response

Sounds about par for them.

J_Rock
11-09-2007, 5:57 PM
Tell us where this shop was so we can avoid it like the plague.

ohsmily
11-09-2007, 6:07 PM
If what you say is true, I would venture a guess that your FFL is well nigh retarded. can he read? Does he speak English? Did he finish high school? Did he finish kindergarten?

Stories like this frustrate me because of the apparent stupidity of people who are walking around and functioning (barely) in our society.

This FFL should not be in business. I hate to advocate having one less FFL, but the fact that he can't figure out BASIC laws makes me wonder what else he can't keep straight (like his own name, not to mention the serial number on guns and the proper way to fill out paperwork).

What FFL was this?

Astig Boy
11-09-2007, 6:09 PM
If threaded barrels were ILLEGAL, then the M1A would be ILLEGAL also. Why dont you point that out to the shop.

Pugster
11-09-2007, 6:21 PM
The 2007 version of the CA Firearm laws explicitly lists no threaded barrels only for semiauto pistols.

FFL needs to read the law more carefully.

jkasandiego
11-09-2007, 6:35 PM
go get your refund and buy somewhere else. your ffl is a total moron.;)

Steyr_223
11-09-2007, 6:53 PM
I call shenanigans..Sounds like CA DOJ FUD..An odd first post, I smell Iggy and his followers..

Prove me wrong, state the name of the FFL or I stand by shenanigans...

S

philthy209
11-09-2007, 7:08 PM
i posted a similar thread and was also shenaniganized.I stated the ffl and was imediatley de-shenaniganized, it's the only way.

How can a person make it his livelyhood to sell guns and not fully understand the laws involved with it:mad:?

LECTRIKHED
11-09-2007, 7:13 PM
This owner sounds like a complete idiot. I doubt he even called the DOJ. The DOJ knows that the SU-16CA is perfectly legal. Most LEOs also know that the SU-16CA is perfectly legal. I've seen the SU-16CA for sale at just about every gun shop in CA that I've been to. There is no grey area on it.

This guy owes you $35. Don't let him get away with being an *****hole. Consider calling the DOJ and or ATF on him and filing a complaint.

Please do tell us which FFL this was.

PIRATE14
11-09-2007, 7:49 PM
See what happens when you buy a KELTEC.........;)

I refuse to sell those illegal weapons..........:D

WokMaster1
11-09-2007, 7:57 PM
If what you say is true, I would venture a guess that your FFL is well nigh retarded. can he read? Does he speak English? Did he finish high school? Did he finish kindergarten?

Stories like this frustrate me because of the apparent stupidity of people who are walking around and functioning (barely) in our society.

This FFL should not be in business. I hate to advocate having one less FFL, but the fact that he can't figure out BASIC laws makes me wonder what else he can't keep straight (like his own name, not to mention the serial number on guns and the proper way to fill out paperwork).

What FFL was this?

Gee Ohsmily, the skanky bitter in Davis getting to you? I hope not, looks like you need to get away from there for a bit. Go see Dr. Ivanimal in Vacaville. he can help!:D

akjunkie
11-09-2007, 8:21 PM
3 pages and the original poster still refuses to state the gunshop that screwed him.

i call bull crap on this one. orginal poster only has ONE post so far.

Shane916
11-09-2007, 8:29 PM
So are we officially declaring Shenanigans? :D

Solidmch
11-09-2007, 8:51 PM
SHENANIGANS

Damn near every FFL in Kalifornia. sells that plastic rifle. State the FFL.

ZombieKiller
11-09-2007, 8:55 PM
SHENANIGANS X2

shark92651
11-09-2007, 9:28 PM
Actually, I'm not surprised if this is real. When I transferred in my Kel-tec at Grant Boys in Costa Mesa I originally bought a SU-16B model. They were looking at it in a book and debating whether it was legal. They said they knew the "CA" model was legal because it said "California Legal" right there in whatever book they were looking in. They then were scratching their heads over the fact that it cold be folded. "If you can fold it it has a folding stock..." I had to explain it could not be fired while folded. Ok, fine, whatever - I was on the fence and then decided I should get the CA anyway as it was a better model so I called the vendor and changed my order to the CA version. It came in and when I went to pick it up, one of the guys behind the counter was playing with the thread protector and asked another worker if that didn't make it illegal. Luckily the other guy knew what he was talking about and told him that only applied to pistols. I do not doubt this guy's story one bit.

tenpercentfirearms
11-09-2007, 9:47 PM
I wonder what it is about the SU16CA model makes a FFL think it is illegal?

Actually I am not one to talk. I just about refused to sell a guy a SU16CA I had on the rack today, but made him buy an AR15 instead. :D

CRTguns
11-09-2007, 10:49 PM
I wooda' got the $30 back too- HE chose to cancel the sale- his fault.

Bucc
11-10-2007, 1:00 AM
Actually, I'm not surprised if this is real. When I transferred in my Kel-tec at Grant Boys in Costa Mesa .


That is all that needs to be said.
Those clowns have a huge collective case of cranial rectus as well as being grossly overpriced in my not so humble opinion.
I have bought a lot of guns over the years but never managed to finish a sale with them.

sloguy
11-10-2007, 1:03 AM
wait a minute, the shop didnt refund the cost of dros?

zaitcev
11-10-2007, 1:12 AM
wait a minute, the shop didnt refund the cost of dros?
He said the DROS stays on file for a month (until November 25), and I can use it if I wish to get a B model or any other weapon in that time (But no refund. Doesn't the money go to the government?) I actually considered it, but then it's not a big loss and I like the CA model better. I updated the lead post in the thread to mention that most likely I'm going to visit a shop in Fremont instead.

sloguy
11-10-2007, 1:40 AM
He said the DROS stays on file for a month (until November 25), and I can use it if I wish to get a B model or any other weapon in that time (But no refund. Doesn't the money go to the government?) I actually considered it, but then it's not a big loss and I like the CA model better. I updated the lead post in the thread to mention that most likely I'm going to visit a shop in Fremont instead.

i just think that the shop has a duty to give you a rifle they start dros on. if they are going to deny it, then they need to do it BEFORE you pay fees. if they decide later that they dont want to release the rifle to you then they need to pay for their mistake. thats just the way i feel about it. mistakes happen but i dont think a customer who is not at fault should have to pay for it.

tenpercentfirearms
11-10-2007, 9:29 AM
i just think that the shop has a duty to give you a rifle they start dros on. if they are going to deny it, then they need to do it BEFORE you pay fees. if they decide later that they dont want to release the rifle to you then they need to pay for their mistake. thats just the way i feel about it. mistakes happen but i dont think a customer who is not at fault should have to pay for it.

It sounds to me like this was a PPT if all it cost you was $35. If this is the case, the shop should have told you when you came in that they would not DROS the rifle. If they accepted the rifle from the seller and logged it into their inventory, they took responsiblity for the rifle. If they later determine they were wrong, that is their fault, not yours. They should have told you at the beginning it was illegal and that they couldn't do the transfer. This is their mistake, not yours. Their mistake should cost you nothing.

It could also be that they had it on their rack and were trying to sell it and they just refunded you everything but $35. Well that is even further manure and they most certainly should refund everything.

Basically, they need to refund everything. I would go down there and let them know they made the mistake, and you would like a refund. If they still refuse, ask them if they have an assault weapon's license. If they do not, inform them that you will be calling the DOJ to inform them that they are illegally accepting assault weapons for transfer/for sale and ask them if that is worth keeping $35 over? Sure it is a bluff as the DOJ isn't going to care these guys are morons, but do what you have to do.

If they still refuse, I would let them know that you are going to make their name public about this and then the rest of us can call them and let them know what tools they are.

I am sorry, but there is a right and a wrong and the gun shop is wrong. You deserve better and future customers need to know what tools these guys are.

Bucc
11-10-2007, 6:07 PM
And still no mention of a name on that FFL?
Fishy.

sloguy
11-10-2007, 6:22 PM
And still no mention of a name on that FFL?
Fishy.

not really fishy. i wouldnt name names till i had tried all options with the ffl. i commed the original poster for not jumping right into" so and so sucks" ect.

Lon Moer
11-10-2007, 6:36 PM
The attorney I mentioned suggested that I visit the Irvington Arms. I'm going to do
just that. Too bad I cannot reuse the DROS.
This is a great idea.
When they get your rifle, post the name of the first FFL/shop so the rest of us can avoid this situation in the future.;)

ar15barrels
11-10-2007, 11:25 PM
Last point, about M1As. Actually, there were a few of them on display in the shop.
The gentleman in question made a special point that their brakes were attached
"permanently", with a cross pin.}

M1A's with muzzle brakes sold in California are NOT permanently attached from Springfield.

zaitcev
12-06-2007, 4:00 PM
Just a quick update:

I received a phone call yesterday. The shop had a change of mind, the owner said that he still has the gun and can sell it, provided we re-file the DROC (the original one has expired two weeks ago). The DOJ didn't get back to him.

I'm undecided about it. I visited Irvington Arms some time ago. They don't have any SU-16s, their distributor was out of them (I also telephoned them today, still nothing). So here we have a gun which is waiting in the shop for me, but there's this little issue of my unhappiness with the whole story. I'm really not certain what to do.

BTW, Irvington had a .223 Saiga in stock. It's cheaper than SU-16 and looks fine, but it's a little heavier, needs a special rail for a reflex sight (which adds more weight). The biggest issue is, Saiga needs its own magazines, just like Mini-14. Reluctantly I declined it.

ar15barrels
12-06-2007, 4:08 PM
I received a phone call yesterday. The shop had a change of mind, the owner said that he still has the gun and can sell it, provided we re-file the DROC (the original one has expired two weeks ago). The DOJ didn't get back to him.

Tell the shop that you will take it if they cover the DROS fees as it was their decision to let the last DROS fee (that you paid) go to waste.

If they don't want to do that, tell them that you will be buying it somewhere else instead.

NRAhighpowershooter
12-06-2007, 4:31 PM
Tell the shop that you will take it if they cover the DROS fees as it was their decision to let the last DROS fee (that you paid) go to waste.

If they don't want to do that, tell them that you will be buying it somewhere else instead.


+1 what he said!!!!!!!!!

USN CHIEF
12-06-2007, 7:32 PM
Umm threaded barrels are a no-no on pistols.

I have a USP Tactical and it has the threaded barrel... Ofcourse I have a permit for it...

ohsmily
12-06-2007, 7:59 PM
I have a USP Tactical and it has the threaded barrel... Ofcourse I have a permit for it...

What kind of permit is that?

If it is a registered assault weapon, that doesn't mean you hold a "permit" for it; it simply means that it is registered with the DOJ as an assault weapon. AW owners don't have AW permits to own their assault weapons.

tenpercentfirearms
12-06-2007, 8:18 PM
When I get back to the shop, I might have a SU16CA I can ship up there to Irvington and you can just buy it from them. We try to take care of each other and they would appreciate the sale. Let me know by e-mail if you want it and I am sure Irvington Arms would be more than happy to pay me for it and offer it to you. guns@tenpercentfirearms.com

zaitcev
04-23-2009, 11:57 AM
If I was discouraged, then only a bit... And I got my Charlie-Alpha, in less than 2 years (insert appropriate emoticon here).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3469133778_4ef6b91fb0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaitcev/3469133778/)

The silver lining is, this unit has a chromed barrell.

{Edit: Back when I was buying the original, there was a mix of both in the dealer inventories. I _think_ that original Charlies came with all the goodies like the dust cover, but without the chrome. On the official website, Kel-Tec states that Delta is 100% chromed, but there's nothing about Charlie, either positive or negative.

Two years ago, I was new to all this and did not check if the unit that was withheld was chromed.

The Alpha and Bravo definitely are not chromed.}

Shane916
04-23-2009, 12:25 PM
If I was discouraged, then only a bit... And I got my Charlie-Alpha, in less than 2 years (insert appropriate emoticon here).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3469133778_4ef6b91fb0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaitcev/3469133778/)

The silver lining is, this unit has a chromed barrell.

Necro post of the decade! :eek:

hellraiser
04-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Necro post of the decade! :eek:

this one gives the keltec good or plastic junk thread a run for its money!!!

its cool the op decided to gives us a follow up though...

vf111
04-23-2009, 1:08 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3469133778_4ef6b91fb0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaitcev/3469133778/)

The silver lining is, this unit has a chromed barrell.

Really? I didn't know Keltecwas CL'ing the barrels on the SU's - kudos to them for doing so!

HK Dave
04-23-2009, 2:04 PM
Interesting... i bought one half a year ago and sold it a month ago with no problems..