PDA

View Full Version : AK "IN BATTERY?"


supersonic
11-08-2007, 6:15 AM
Probably a real noob question, but I'm new to the platform: when chambering a round on a WASR10, the round chambers, the bolt appears to be up against rear of chamber, hammer DOES drop (snap cap test), but bolt CARRIER/CHARGING HANDLE ASSY. is still about 1/2" away from completely closing - like it DOES on an empty chamber. Is this as it should be? Or do I have problems? Thanks.

Vepr62
11-08-2007, 7:19 AM
Open your top cower and see if the bolt rotates/locks into locking lugs when the carrier goes forvard all the way. It supposed to lock the same on emty or loaded chamber. And let if "fly" forvard, don't follow it with your hand. Those are rugged firearms and bolt/carrier might "hang" if you are too gentle.
Vasiliy

supersonic
11-08-2007, 9:18 AM
Open your top cower and see if the bolt rotates/locks into locking lugs when the carrier goes forvard all the way. It supposed to lock the same on emty or loaded chamber. And let if "fly" forvard, don't follow it with your hand. Those are rugged firearms and bolt/carrier might "hang" if you are too gentle.
Vasiliy

Yeah, I know about "riding" the charging handle. Didn't do that. It seems as if the bolt is going into full rotation "lock," but the carrier just won't go that extra 1/2". BTW, it DID work finally w/ the snap cap, but with Wolf "dummies"(live rounds that I removed primer/powder from-and YES they are exactly the correct OAL as before), I'm back to the same problem.(?) Anyone have any insight/experience w/ this "phenomenon?"

swift
11-08-2007, 9:23 AM
Yeah, I know about "riding" the charging handle. Didn't do that. It seems as if the bolt is going into full rotation "lock," but the carrier just won't go that extra 1/2". BTW, it DID work finally w/ the snap cap, but with Wolf "dummies"(live rounds that I removed primer/powder from-and YES they are exactly the correct OAL as before), I'm back to the same problem.(?) Anyone have any insight/experience w/ this "phenomenon?"


Maybe it's the wolf ammo? I'd try a different brand of factory-new ammo.

AJAX22
11-08-2007, 9:23 AM
I need to see a pic... I'm not picturing it

supersonic
11-08-2007, 9:57 AM
I need to see a pic... I'm not picturing it

I don't have access to pics right now, but picture a full mag, pulling charging handle all the way back, letting it slam home, then- if you look @ the handle, it remains about 1/2" from being completely closed against front trunnion.:confused:

jumbopanda
11-08-2007, 1:45 PM
This is definitely NOT okay to shoot. If the carrier doesnt go forward all the way, then the bolt is not locked in. Sounds like the headspace is a bit wacky.

Maybe it's the wolf ammo? I'd try a different brand of factory-new ammo.

An AK that does not shoot Wolf ammo is not an AK as far as I'm concerned.

God Bless The Mauser
11-08-2007, 2:24 PM
An AK that does not shoot Wolf ammo is not an AK as far as I'm concerned.

exactly

My AK shoots Wolf perfectly fine although it is much better quality rifle than a WASR10.

NSR500
11-08-2007, 4:30 PM
Might be a Century Headspace Monkey Job.

Timberland
11-08-2007, 10:13 PM
Is it really half an inch or less than a mm. AK bolts dont fit flush with the reciever. If its really 1/2'' you should be seeing brass if you try to lock and load.

supersonic
11-09-2007, 4:34 AM
Is it really half an inch or less than a mm. AK bolts dont fit flush with the reciever. If its really 1/2'' you should be seeing brass if you try to lock and load.

If I do it in "slow motion," the bolt stops against the chamber (as it should(?)), and the carrier goes a little more, but then stops about 1/4-1/2" before contacting trunnion. When field stripped, I can stick a snap cap; a Wolf lacquered round; a Wolf "plain" round; a Remington brass round- in the chamber, and they all fit in the same (w/ just the extractor groove/rim sticking out the back of chamber. Most of the rounds I've chambered come out w/ long scratches running almost the length of the case.:confused:

ar15barrels
11-09-2007, 8:25 AM
If I do it in "slow motion," the bolt stops against the chamber (as it should(?)), and the carrier goes a little more, but then stops about 1/4-1/2" before contacting trunnion.

You still have not answered to wether the bolt is rotating into a locked position or not.
This should be easy to see with the top cover and spring removed.

If the barrel were to be installed too far back into the trunion, there would not be enough room for the bolt to lock into place.
It would not matter if there was a cartridge in the chamber or not.

If the problem only occurs with a cartridge in the chamber, then you have LESS than MINIMUM headspace and the cartridge is not allowing the bolt forward enough for the bolt lugs to cam into position.

Don't fire a rifle if the bolt lugs won't cam into position.

!@#$
11-09-2007, 8:50 AM
i have seen an ak where the front of the gas piston binds against the front of the gas block/end of the gas tube with the same result. if there is abnormal ware in that spot it is easy to fix.

Ak47owner
11-09-2007, 12:33 PM
check your gas tube and gas block for any abstruction that might stop the piston from going in to the gas portal

supersonic
11-09-2007, 12:56 PM
Works perfectly w/ no round in chamber. Not a mag issue. With single round placed in chamber, extractor cams over rim, bolt goes up against chamber, then carrier stops short (1-2mm of bolt locking) of touching trunnion about1/4-1/2". I can take a small blunt instrument (hammer) & bang towards muzzle on charging handle, THEN it will shut completely. Have to use a few taps to get it back out of battery, though.

valleyrat
11-09-2007, 2:06 PM
As others have suggested, check the gas piston fit.

supersonic
11-09-2007, 2:55 PM
As others have suggested, check the gas piston fit.

How would gas piston fit be any different whether or not a round is in the chamber?

Vepr62
11-09-2007, 3:53 PM
It sounds like you have tight headspace (barrel pushed too far in), or got obstruction in your chamber that prevents round from chambering all the way. Did you see any marks on rount you slamed into chamber with a hammer? Get a good wire brush and clean the heck out of your chamber. If that won't help, head space needs to be checked by a competent gun smith.
Vasiliy

ar15barrels
11-09-2007, 11:14 PM
Works perfectly w/ no round in chamber. Not a mag issue. With single round placed in chamber, extractor cams over rim, bolt goes up against chamber, then carrier stops short (1-2mm of bolt locking) of touching trunnion about1/4-1/2". I can take a small blunt instrument (hammer) & bang towards muzzle on charging handle, THEN it will shut completely. Have to use a few taps to get it back out of battery, though.

Remove the bolt from the carrier.
Set a cartridge in the bolt face.
Slide the cartridge AND bolt into the chamber and attempt to manually lock the bolt with your fingers.
If the bolt won't close with finger pressure, the chamber is shallow (not enough room for a cartridge) and will need to be reamed deeper.

You could also try another bolt as it's possible for either the barrel/trunion to be the cause, OR the bolt to be the cause.
The bolt is obviously the easier thing to replace.

supersonic
11-10-2007, 5:04 AM
Remove the bolt from the carrier.
Set a cartridge in the bolt face.
Slide the cartridge AND bolt into the chamber and attempt to manually lock the bolt with your fingers.
If the bolt won't close with finger pressure, the chamber is shallow (not enough room for a cartridge) and will need to be reamed deeper.

You could also try another bolt as it's possible for either the barrel/trunion to be the cause, OR the bolt to be the cause.
The bolt is obviously the easier thing to replace.

Great suggestions , Mr. R. I don't know WHY I didn't think of that myself!!!!:)

NeoWeird
11-10-2007, 12:39 PM
If I were a betting man I'd say you have a bur in your chamber. Let's review the facts.

The carrier doesn't need to touch anything, including the trunion. It's like a car transporting people, it doesn't matter where it ends as long as what it's carrying gets to where it needs to go. That would be the bolt. If your bolt locks home, which you say it does on an empty chamber, it is fine. Look at it this way, if you had a functioning rifle and the carrier bound against the trunion wall and the bolt locked in place with perfect timing, and you had an inch milled off the front bearing areas of the carrier then the bolt would STILL lock home. If anything, you want a bit of space there to ensure the bolt is the one resting in the locked position and NOT the carrier preventing further travel forward. Again, since we know the bolt can rotate and lock on an empty chamber we know that this is not an issue of carrier/bolt and barrel/trunion spacing problems (don't mistake this for headspace!).

I highly doubt it is the gas piston binding on the gas port since it would happen all the time. Plus it would only take a bit of heavy shaking/banging to get it to snap home once it cleared the out of round area in the gas port and it would be easy to remove from battery once it was in place. Requiring force to close and force to open means something else is binding. It could have been a posability if the gas port was too small and the piston was getting wedged, but then again this would also happen on an empty chamber so this is not the case.

So the rifle functions properly without a round but doesn't function with a round. This indicates that something is happening when there is a round in the rifle (I know this seems stupid/obvious but sometimes it takes someone to say it for it to register). So The problem is either with the round itself or the way the rifle interacts with the round.

The only thing that really changes on the rifle when a bullet is present is the extractor. You claim this part work fine and cams over the rim. If you really want to be sure you could cut down a shell and bend the edges inward to prevent binding and see if it still works with nothing going into the chamber. I highly doubt this is the problem though so I wouldn't do it unless the next steps fail.

The case is impedding proper seating depth. You said you had trouble at first with everything, then it started to work empty but still gives problems with casings. You also said it requires force to close the bolt on a casing but it WILL close. It's takes force to remove the casing at that point and it will have a scratch on the case.

This is what I think is happening: You had a poor chambering job done by whoever did it. That or they chambered before inserting the barrel into the trunion and the trunion did it as it was being pushed in. In any case, I would bet there was a small bur on your chamber mouth. Originally it was sticking out going with the bore of the rifle and was causing a bind and preventing your rifle from going home all together. After working with it a bit you pushed the bur inward and removed it's presence when the bolt is empty and it now functions fine. Put a case in the gun however and the case binds against the bur instead of the shoulder. The bur removes maybe .005-.010" thousandths of headspace and prevents the bolt from locking forward. You can use force to make the bur cut into the casing until it rests against the shoulder, but then you have a jagged piece of metal gripping your case that requires force to remove. The scratch on the ejected casing is evidence of this. Look at your scratched casing, however far back the scratch goes will tell you exactly where the bur is. You can also force another casing in and pull it out slowly to see where in 'timing' or the gun is the bur (for example is it dead top, 15 degrees left of level, etc).

Chances are a little clean up, maybe even with a chamber brush or a small debur tool if you know how, will fix the problem. Chances are a gunsmith is not needed so don't waste the money (yet). Once you can get it to function fine you are good. Even if there are scratches in the casings, you are fine as long as it locks into place. Sometimes guns just need to wear themselves in and clean themselves before they are at their 'normal' functioning condition. Still, do NOT fire the weapon unless it is locked in place. Knowing you have a problem, even if you fix it, you might want to visually check EVERY round that goes in until you are confident it is fixed. Maybe get it to function fine, then take it to the range and put 250 rounds down range checking EVERY time it chambers a round. If you have no problems then you can treat it like a functioning rifle. Also, just to be safe, you might want to have the headspaced checked to be safe, but this can be done with some borrowed gauges or buy them since they are something like $20 each.

Good luck and let uis know how it goes.

supersonic
11-10-2007, 1:14 PM
Thanks, Neo.

NeoWeird
11-10-2007, 1:29 PM
Let me know if it works.

I was still sleepy eyed at that point from just waking up and re-reading that post is giving me a headache. I will fix the errors later when I'm more awake.

supersonic
11-12-2007, 9:01 AM
Neo, seems you win the cigar!!! I took it out for the first time Sunday, and (aside from jams here & there) it just seemed to need a "breaking-in" process. Put about 300 rds. down pipe, and by round 20, or so, carrier was closing all the way. Being it my first "real" & "extended" time w/ live AK fire, I learned how to "tell" if your bolt/carrier is functioning properly: after each round is fired, you can actually "feel" & "hear" the b/c group slamming open and shut w/ sharp & positive (and quick!) authority. All the worry over nothing. Mags are DEFINITELY an issue, though. All steel (incl. follower) seems to work the best, though. Thanks, again, Neo!

NeoWeird
11-12-2007, 12:18 PM
No problem. By the way, I prefer Jose Marti cigars. ;)

Just glad I can help. I've never had a lot of money so I tend to stay away from Gunsmiths at all costs. When I hear someone is thinking of going to one I want to cringe because I know 95% of the time it's not needed unless the gun has been absued, worn, or neglected beyond the worst measures imaginable. Just glad everything is fine.

You might want to pick up a few of the cases and see if the scratch is still forming. If it's gone, no need to worry; if it's there maybe try to clean it up a bit more. In any event, your gun is working and it will wear itself in. It's like a new car, sometimes the first few stretches of use need to be done with care but once it's running you can treat it like any other.

Glad I could help!

ar15barrels
11-12-2007, 1:03 PM
I tend to stay away from Gunsmiths at all costs. When I hear someone is thinking of going to one I want to cringe because I know 95% of the time it's not needed unless the gun has been absued, worn, or neglected beyond the worst measures imaginable.!

It's good that you know when the 5% of the time it actually IS necessary because some people don't.
Fixing your own gun is great, IF you have the skill and more importantly the wisdom to KNOW when you are in over your head.

Finding out that you were over your head after-the-fact can be dangerous, painful or possibly even deadly.

Charliegone
11-12-2007, 1:09 PM
Neo, seems you win the cigar!!! I took it out for the first time Sunday, and (aside from jams here & there) it just seemed to need a "breaking-in" process. Put about 300 rds. down pipe, and by round 20, or so, carrier was closing all the way. Being it my first "real" & "extended" time w/ live AK fire, I learned how to "tell" if your bolt/carrier is functioning properly: after each round is fired, you can actually "feel" & "hear" the b/c group slamming open and shut w/ sharp & positive (and quick!) authority. All the worry over nothing. Mags are DEFINITELY an issue, though. All steel (incl. follower) seems to work the best, though. Thanks, again, Neo!

Yeah stay away from those bolt hold open mags too, they tend to get jammed up sometimes or won't chamber the last round (ask me how I know!)

NeoWeird
11-12-2007, 3:11 PM
It's good that you know when the 5% of the time it actually IS necessary because some people don't.
Fixing your own gun is great, IF you have the skill and more importantly the wisdom to KNOW when you are in over your head.

Finding out that you were over your head after-the-fact can be dangerous, painful or possibly even deadly.

Truer wisdom has never been spoekn. I take for granted frequently that most people are not as mechanically inclined, have the experience and ability, generally can't visualize objects in their head and figure them out, or have the ability to take things apart and put them back together like I do.

Don't get me wrong, Gunsmiths have their place and it is vital to our right, but I cringe when I hear people say they NEED to go to a gunsmith to get their scope sighted in, or because the firing pin is bent, or some other minor problem that the average joe could do if they just opened their gun up from time to time.

ar15barrels
11-12-2007, 4:29 PM
Truer wisdom has never been spoekn. I take for granted frequently that most people are not as mechanically inclined, have the experience and ability, generally can't visualize objects in their head and figure them out, or have the ability to take things apart and put them back together like I do.

Each person has a different level of mechanical eptitude.
Those without the necessary level are smart to pay someone else that does have the skills/tools to do the job.

supersonic
11-15-2007, 11:30 AM
Each person has a different level of mechanical eptitude.
Those without the necessary level are smart to pay someone else that does have the skills/tools to do the job.

That's APTITUDE, 'Double R'!!!!!!!!;)

ar15barrels
11-15-2007, 12:57 PM
That's APTITUDE, 'Double R'!!!!!!!!;)

Frickin spellinazis...

When you don't have aptitude, you are inept, so therefore I make up the new word eptitude. :D

NeoWeird
11-15-2007, 4:58 PM
Case in point, there is a guy on Rimfirecenteral who just the other day took his rifle to a gunsmith to remove a stuck bore cleaner. after plenty of advice from other board members he still went to a gunsmith. What did the gunsmith do? Put the but of the rifle on the floor and yanked on the cleaning rod.

There is a time and place for a gunsmith, and they demand a high price for their expertice, but there are far too many people who go to gunsmiths as if guns had some special mechanical property that meant only people with special masters degrees in them could touch them let alone work on them.

ar15barrels
11-15-2007, 5:11 PM
Case in point, there is a guy on Rimfirecenteral who just the other day took his rifle to a gunsmith to remove a stuck bore cleaner. after plenty of advice from other board members he still went to a gunsmith. What did the gunsmith do? Put the but of the rifle on the floor and yanked on the cleaning rod.

Some people trust themselves and some don't.

I recently had a guy over who had stuck several patches in the bore.
The thing is that he did this a couple months ago, but never got around to getting them out.
Fast forward to the present... when I removed them, the area had rusted pretty badly.
The guy SAYS he hammered on the cheaning rod to try yo get them out.
Maybe his cleaning rod was weak, I don't know.
It was a 30 caliber bore so I put a 1/4" brass rod down the bore and hammered the stuck patches right out.
Of course I made a nicely fitted delrin bushing to protect the crown while doing this.
That's the sort of thing that a gunsmith can do that a regular joe without a lathe can NOT do.

You should have seen the patches.
They were so tightly packed that they were hard like a cardboard pellet of some sort.
I think that whatever solvent he has using had dried out.

Too bad he did not keep the bore oiled down as the barrel probably would not have been damaged by rust.

supersonic
11-15-2007, 6:03 PM
Frickin spellinazis...

When you don't have aptitude, you are inept, so therefore I make up the new word eptitude. :D

So, when you aren't making AR15BARRELS, you're making up words..............hmmmm............keen!:p

NeoWeird
11-16-2007, 4:32 PM
Yes, but the problem with the person I mentioned was it was an Ottis style cleaning 'rope' and the the patches got lodged the day he posted the question on how to fix it. The first person said take it to a gunsmith and that got the OP going on that's what he needed to do, inspite of several people saying they had the exact same gun and cleaning products and told him how to get it out. The gunsmith did nothing other than grab the cleaning line and yank. Money well spent.

You know, I am sensing a bit of hostility on your end. I am sorry if you feel under attack, I am in no way trying to bash your profession. I simply don't have the money to take my vehicles to a mechanic every time I need an oil change, or air filter swapped, or air put in my tires; and seeing as I know how to do those things, why bother? I just know that most people can unscrew the cover on their air filter box and pull it out and put it back in without problem if they just tried so why spend the time and money to let someone else do it? Or course there are times, like when you have serious modifications or repairs, that a mechanic is all but required, especially for the average joe, and I strongely recommend not messing anything up further. Please don't offense at my advice of my position; I meant you no disrespect.

Of course, if you are just typing in a friendly manner, forget all that, I'm paranoid. :eek:

ar15barrels
11-16-2007, 5:16 PM
I simply don't have the money to take my vehicles to a mechanic every time I need an oil change, or air filter swapped, or air put in my tires; and seeing as I know how to do those things, why bother? I just know that most people can unscrew the cover on their air filter box and pull it out and put it back in without problem if they just tried so why spend the time and money to let someone else do it? Or course there are times, like when you have serious modifications or repairs, that a mechanic is all but required, especially for the average joe, and I strongely recommend not messing anything up further.

I have a threshold on what I will and won't pay for.
For example, I'm not paying a mechanic to air up my tires or change the air filter, but it's certainly worth the $20 for an oil change.
Now I won't pay the $70 for a transmission service though.

I'm not getting oily/greasy for $10 savings, but I'll get oily/greasy for $50 savings on the transmission service...

Funny huh?

Of course, if you are just typing in a friendly manner, forget all that, I'm paranoid. :eek:

Perhaps. ;)