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glockwitknocks
11-07-2007, 10:11 PM
which
is good for target shooting?

CRTguns
11-07-2007, 10:18 PM
that, my friend is the kind of question that will get sooooo much scrituny and critisism on this site- you might just delete this now- save yerself some trouble.

5968
11-07-2007, 10:19 PM
Both... You are going to get better MOA out of an AR platform.

Wyatt
11-07-2007, 10:20 PM
lol :D

5968
11-07-2007, 10:21 PM
Define what your idea of target shooting is....

CRTguns
11-07-2007, 10:27 PM
If your content to simply perforate a HUGE target at ridiculously close ranges, maybe like 6 feet, Saiga all the way baby!!!

submaniac
11-07-2007, 10:31 PM
Define what your idea of target shooting is....

Ditto. The AR folks would mount a scope, and take careful aim to shoot a target hundreds of yards away. They measure their groupings, and are not satisfied until the have at least a 1/2 inch MOA. The AK folks, in contrast, are perfectly content with making sh*t explode (concrete, rocks, deserted vehicles, cans) and then giggling afterwards.

deldgeetar
11-07-2007, 10:42 PM
Saiga - AK platform. RELIABLE. Try to get it to jam. Just about impossible. Easy to clean. Fieldstrips in seconds. Can run very dirty without any problems. Will eat any ammo you put in it. Accuracy won't be as good as an AR. I have a Saiga 7.62x39 w/ 16.5" barrel and I can do 2.5-3" groups from a rest at 100 yards. .223/.308 models do better, especially scoped. However, as earlier posters stated, who shoots paper with an AK? At Panoche last weekend I had no problem knocking around propane tanks at 160 yards standing (laser rangefinder is great for measurements.) I've had 500 rounds through mine and haven't cleaned it since before I fired it. Great rifle, especially for the money ($265).

AR - complex platform. Evil features force a compromise between a pistol grip or mag fixing device. ARs can have reliability issues that require tweaking to fix. Much more sensitive to dirt than the AK. I wouldn't put steel cased ammo through one (I know some do.) Positives - ACCURATE. With a scope and tweaking, sub MOA is possible. Definitely a paper shooter's gun. Although .223 is just as fun blowing **** up. Definitely much more expensive than the AK platform.

Either gun is a good choice. It all depends on what you plan on using it for and what your budget is.

PanzerAce
11-07-2007, 11:11 PM
Ditto. The AR folks would mount a scope, and take careful aim to shoot a target hundreds of yards away. They measure their groupings, and are not satisfied until the have at least a 1/2 inch MOA. The AK folks, in contrast, are perfectly content with making sh*t explode (concrete, rocks, deserted vehicles, cans) and then giggling afterwards.


I will now hijack this saying for my own uses :)

DedEye
11-07-2007, 11:29 PM
Ditto. The AR folks would mount a scope, and take careful aim to shoot a target hundreds of yards away. They measure their groupings, and are not satisfied until the have at least a 1/2 inch MOA. The AK folks, in contrast, are perfectly content with making sh*t explode (concrete, rocks, deserted vehicles, cans) and then giggling afterwards.

But I do that with my AR :43:.

glockwitknocks
11-08-2007, 1:20 AM
is saiga ak-47 legal in CA? howcome this rifle is less expensive than AR's?

DedEye
11-08-2007, 1:45 AM
is saiga ak-47 legal in CA? howcome this rifle is less expensive than AR's?

You can get a Saiga type rifle, I think the main one is listed by name leading lots of FFLs to avoid transferring Saigas altogether. As for price, you get what you pay for.

Gmountain
11-08-2007, 3:55 AM
Which is better for auto racing? BMW or Yugo?

tenpercentfirearms
11-08-2007, 4:45 AM
AR15 is much nicer, but more expensive. The clear answer is to get one of each.

jandmtv
11-08-2007, 6:52 AM
AR15 is much nicer, but more expensive. The clear answer is to get one of each.

+1 get one of each!

ar15barrels
11-08-2007, 6:54 AM
The AR folks would mount a scope, and take careful aim to shoot a target hundreds of yards away. They measure their groupings, and are not satisfied until the have at least a 1/2 inch MOA. The AK folks, in contrast, are perfectly content with making sh*t explode (concrete, rocks, deserted vehicles, cans) and then giggling afterwards.

That right there is sig-line material. :D

ar15barrels
11-08-2007, 6:57 AM
which
is good for target shooting?

Define the size of your target.
Is it important to actually HIT your target, or do you just like the noise of the gun going off?

The AR will make it easier to actually HIT the target than the Saiga, no matter how small or how far.
The Saiga is less expensive and will make just as much noise.

223addict
11-08-2007, 7:46 AM
AR15 is much nicer, but more expensive. The clear answer is to get one of each.

Why stop at 1 each? I'm thinking 4 or 5...

Bagger
11-08-2007, 8:20 AM
Depends on how much you want to spend

DedEye
11-08-2007, 8:25 AM
Which is better for auto racing? BMW or Yugo?

While I'm not sure the difference between the two types of guns is quite as pronounced as between the BMW and Yugo, I almost made this analogy myself last night.

To continue with it:

The AR (BMW) is nicer and more expensive and has many more complex parts, which helps explain why it's always in the damn shop.

Standard
11-08-2007, 8:25 AM
Where is a good place to buy an AK type weapon in CA with Pistol grip and fixed stock? Cost is a factor...I have an AR, but AKs have been growing on me...

ar15barrels
11-08-2007, 9:24 AM
The AR (BMW) is nicer and more expensive and has many more complex parts, which helps explain why it's always in the damn shop.

Spoken like a true AK fan.
The only part you have wrong is the part about the AR always being in the shop.

I can suggest this alternative explanation:
The AR is nicer, more expensive and more accurate which helps explain why it's and the choice of the free world. :D

hybridatsun350
11-08-2007, 9:32 AM
I love all these ill informed passes at AR reliability. Why is it that I have never yet had a problem with an AR? I'm not saying I'm an expert on AR's or AK's, but I can safely say that AR's are just as reliable as anything else.

As for the target shooting part, you must be joking! haha

mike452
11-08-2007, 9:33 AM
which
is good for target shooting?

Define "is" ? :D


I had to do it.... AR15..

ar15barrels
11-08-2007, 9:36 AM
I love all these ill informed passes at AR reliability.

The people making these remarks are very aware that the idea which they are trying to pass off does not necessarily jive with reality.
The AR owning crowd knows what's true and that's all that matters in the end.

ar15barrels
11-08-2007, 9:47 AM
Define "is" ? :D

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
be /bi; unstressed bi, bɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bee; unstressed bee, bi] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb and auxiliary verb, present singular 1st person am, 2nd are or (Archaic) art, 3rd is, present plural are; past singular 1st person was, 2nd were or (Archaic) wast or wert, 3rd was, past plural were; present subjunctive be; past subjunctive singular 1st person were, 2nd were or (Archaic) wert, 3rd were; past subjunctive plural were; past participle been; present participle be·ing.
–verb (used without object) 1. to exist or live: Shakespeare's “To be or not to be” is the ultimate question.
2. to take place; happen; occur: The wedding was last week.
3. to occupy a place or position: The book is on the table.
4. to continue or remain as before: Let things be.
5. to belong; attend; befall: May good fortune be with you.
6. (used as a copula to connect the subject with its predicate adjective, or predicate nominative, in order to describe, identify, or amplify the subject): Martha is tall. John is president. This is she.
7. (used as a copula to introduce or form interrogative or imperative sentences): Is that right? Be quiet! Don't be facetious.
–auxiliary verb 8. (used with the present participle of another verb to form the progressive tense): I am waiting.
9. (used with the present participle or infinitive of the principal verb to indicate future action): She is visiting there next week. He is to see me today.
10. (used with the past participle of another verb to form the passive voice): The date was fixed. It must be done.
11. (used in archaic or literary constructions with some intransitive verbs to form the perfect tense): He is come. Agamemnon to the wars is gone.

-------------------------------------------------

[Origin: bef. 900; ME been, OE béon (béo- (akin to OFris, OHG bim, G bin, OS bium, biom (I) am, OE, OHG, OS būan, ON būa reside, L fuī (I) have been, Gk phy- grow, become, OIr boí (he) was, Skt bhávati (he) becomes, is, Lith búti to be, OCS byti, Pers būd was)) + -n inf. suffix. See am, is, are1, was, were]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
is /ɪz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[iz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb 1. 3rd pers. sing. pres. indic. of be.
—Idiom2. as is. as1 (def. 25).

------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: bef. 900; ME, OE; c. D is, ON es, er, G, Goth ist, L est, Gk estí, OCS jestĭ, Skt asti]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This be (bē) Pronunciation Key
v. First and third person singular past indicative was (wŭz, wŏz; wəz when unstressed), second person singular and plural and first and third person plural past indicative were (wûr), past subjunctive were, past participle been (bĭn), present participle be·ing (bē'ĭng), first person singular present indicative am (ām), second person singular and plural and first and third person plural present indicative are (är), third person singular present indicative is (ĭz), present subjunctive be

v. intr.

To exist in actuality; have life or reality: I think, therefore I am.

To occupy a specified position: The food is on the table.
To remain in a certain state or situation undisturbed, untouched, or unmolested: Let the children be.
To equal in identity: "To be a Christian was to be a Roman" (James Bryce).
To have a specified significance: A is excellent, C is passing. Let n be the unknown quantity.
To belong to a specified class or group: The human being is a primate.
To have or show a specified quality or characteristic: She is witty. All humans are mortal.
To seem to consist or be made of: The yard is all snow. He is all bluff and no bite.
To take place; occur: The test was yesterday.
To go or come: Have you ever been to Italy? Have you been home recently?
Used as a copula in such senses as:
To equal in identity: "To be a Christian was to be a Roman" (James Bryce).
To have a specified significance: A is excellent, C is passing. Let n be the unknown quantity.
To belong to a specified class or group: The human being is a primate.
To have or show a specified quality or characteristic: She is witty. All humans are mortal.
To seem to consist or be made of: The yard is all snow. He is all bluff and no bite.
To belong; befall: Peace be unto you. Woe is me.

v. aux.

Used with the past participle of a transitive verb to form the passive voice: The mayoral election is held annually.
Used with the present participle of a verb to express a continuing action: We are working to improve housing conditions.
Used with the infinitive of a verb to express intention, obligation, or future action: She was to call before she left. You are to make the necessary changes.
Archaic Used with the past participle of certain intransitive verbs to form the perfect tense: "Where be those roses gone which sweetened so our eyes?" (Philip Sidney).

[Middle English ben, from Old English bēon; see bheuə- in Indo-European roots. See am1, is, etc. for links to other Indo-European roots.]

Usage Note: Traditional grammar requires the nominative form of the pronoun in the predicate of the verb be: It is I (not me); That must be they (not them), and so forth. Nearly every speaker of Modern English finds this rule difficult to follow. Even if everyone could follow it, in informal contexts the nominative pronoun often sounds pedantic and even ridiculous, especially when the verb is contracted, as in It's we. But constructions like It is me have been condemned in the classroom and in writing handbooks for so long that there seems little likelihood that they will ever be entirely acceptable in formal writing. · The traditional rule creates additional problems when the pronoun following be also functions as the object of a verb or preposition in a relative clause, as in It is not them/they that we have in mind when we talk about "crime in the streets" nowadays, where the plural pronoun serves as both the predicate of is and the object of have. In this example, 57 percent of the Usage Panel prefers the nominative form they, 33 percent prefer the objective them, and 10 percent accept both versions. Writers can usually revise their sentences to avoid this problem: They are not the ones we have in mind, We have someone else in mind, and so on. See Usage Notes at I1, we.


Our Living Language : In place of the inflected forms of be, such as is and are, used in Standard English, African American Vernacular English (AAVE) and some varieties of Southern American English may use zero copula or an invariant be, as in He be working, instead of the Standard English He is usually working. As an identifying feature of the vernacular of many African Americans, invariant be in recent years has been frequently seized on by writers and commentators trying to imitate or parody Black speech. However, most imitators use it simply as a substitute for is, as in John be sitting in that chair now, without realizing that within AAVE, invariant be is used primarily for habitual or extended actions set in the present. Among African Americans the form is most commonly used by working-class speakers and young persons. Since the 1980s, younger speakers have tended to restrict the use of the form to progressive verb forms (as in He be walking), whereas their parents use it with progressives, adjectives (as in He be nice), and expressions referring to a location (as in He be at home). Younger speakers also use invariant be more exclusively to indicate habitual action, whereas older speakers more commonly omit be forms (as in He walking) or use present tense verb forms (such as He walks), sometimes with adverbs like often or usually, to indicate habituality. · The source of invariant habitual be in AAVE is still disputed. Some linguists suggest that it represents influence from finite be in the 17th- to 19th-century English of British settlers, especially those from the southwest of England. Other linguists feel that contemporaneous Irish or Scotch-Irish immigrants may have played a larger role, since their dialects mark habitual verb forms with be and do be, as in "They be shooting and fishing out at the Forestry Lakes" (archival recordings of the Royal Irish Academy) and "Up half the night he does be" (James Joyce). Other linguists believe that it may have evolved from the does be construction indicating habitual action used by Gullah speakers from coastal South Carolina and Georgia and by Caribbean Creole immigants. Still other linguists suggest that invariant be is a mid- to late-20th-century innovation within AAVE, essentially a response to the wide range of meanings that the English progressive tense can express. See Notes at all, like2, zero copula.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

American Heritage Dictionary
(ĭz) Pronunciation Key
v. Third person singular present indicative of be.

[Middle English, from Old English; see es- in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


Checkmate. :D

AJAX22
11-08-2007, 9:57 AM
It seems like my AR's go into the shop exactly once. (its Randals shop) then I never have another problem ever again.

I need to drag my M4gery over there one of these evenings.

At one point in time I was an AR hater (alway pro AK/SKS for the reliability) but then Randal fixed my A2 and now I really only enjoy shooting AR's.

I have a dozen SKS's that gather dust, and few AK's that sit around in closets.

Prc329
11-08-2007, 10:00 AM
Get an M14/M1A :D

Applehaus21st
11-08-2007, 10:01 AM
I'd say eliminate the "or" and get both. The more the better.

Oswald2001
11-08-2007, 10:59 AM
There have been more AK's built than any other firearm in history...and for good reason.



Buy an AK74.

The ammo is so cheap right now that the ammo savings alone will result in an essentially FREE RIFLE.

Shoot that for a while and keep reading on different boards.

You will find for yourself what you like best over time.



Basically, it's just about impossible to have only one rifle.


As far as practical accuracty? AK's are just as good as AR's to me.

I am looking to hit a chest sized target at 200-300 yards max.

Beyond that...I would go for my M1A or a .308 bolt action.



If I am going for the best precision...it's bolt action only.






YMMV

Bizcuits
11-08-2007, 11:06 AM
I say screw both and get an AK with a MMG :chris: I love AR's but their $$$

TonyNorCal
11-08-2007, 11:06 AM
You need both, most definitely:)

Get a Saiga in 7.62x39 and an CA-legal AR in its most prevalent configuration: 5.56.

You'll then examples of two of the most prevalent military arms of the last half century.

At the heart of a Saiga beats a Russian AK. And, the Russians know a thing or two about making AKs.

Oh wait, to best represent military arms of the last half century you'll also need a FAL:p

DedEye
11-08-2007, 11:13 AM
The people making these remarks are very aware that the idea which they are trying to pass off does not necessarily jive with reality.
The AR owning crowd knows what's true and that's all that matters in the end.

Actually I don't own any AKs and much prefer the AR platform in every way. I was just poking fun at BMWs truth be told (another product which I adore, but take jabs at when the moment strikes).

My AR has never had to go "in the shop." In the early days of my owning it - and before I had my own AR but was using an M16A2 - I had problems with feeding and extracting, but those were related to my mistakes and not the weapon. Now that I know how to maintain my AR and keep it well lubed I never have problems.



Jeez people, touchy touchy. :rolleyes::p

Standard
11-08-2007, 11:36 AM
Where is a good place to buy an AK type weapon in CA with Pistol grip and fixed stock? Cost is a factor...I have an AR, but AKs have been growing on me...

Anyone? :)

ar15barrels
11-08-2007, 11:41 AM
Anyone? :)

Pistol grip would require a fixed mag or a bullet button setup.
I don't know if any shops are selling rifles configured like that or not.

If not, buy a pistol-gripless one, pin the mag and install the pistol grip yourself.

Standard
11-08-2007, 12:27 PM
Sounds good to me, that's how my AR setup is :)
Where are decently priced AKs for sale, that I can go this route on?

Fjold
11-08-2007, 1:27 PM
Both... You are going to get better MOA out of an AR platform.



What the heck does this mean?

Minute of Angle (MOA) is a fixed amount, there is no better or worse MOA.

Dr. Peter Venkman
11-08-2007, 1:41 PM
What the heck does this mean?

Minute of Angle (MOA) is a fixed amount, there is no better or worse MOA.

I suppose he meant smaller groups.

Unless of course the AR-15 can manipulate the forces of the space-time continuum and change the value of a radian. I think those specific AR-15s are listed.

DedEye
11-08-2007, 3:10 PM
What the heck does this mean?

Minute of Angle (MOA) is a fixed amount, there is no better or worse MOA.

I'd translate that as "Sub-MOA."

Q
11-08-2007, 5:00 PM
Get both.
The AR has a design that is more accurate easier to repair,upgrade, or rebuild. You can shoot the AR more without worring about a replacement barrel. The raa saiga is more collectable. Should go up in value like the sks. You may find a dimpled one, buy it. I just found one after over a year of looking. It's a RAA 223. I just got all the parts for the 101 conversion. http://www.avtomats-in-action.com/pro23.html
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/picture032tx7.jpg

Paratus et Vigilans
11-08-2007, 5:15 PM
My avatar says you should get an AR! :D

Seriously, you should get what you have a hankering for, and if you WANT an AK, then get one, but don't expect it to shoot like anything other than what it is, and ditto for the AR. I love my AR's, and wouldn't care if I never even had the opportunity to handle or shoot an AK. I appreciate them for what they are and what they can do. I just don't want one. For a 7.62/.30 cal weapon I prefer my M-1 Garands (one in .30-06 and one in 7.62), my M1A SOCOM-16, and my soon-to-be built .308 POF AR-10. I also have this funny thing about wanting American weapons, not Soviet/Russian ones - - though I am getting one of Wes' M-N M44's, so I don't really follow my own rules on that one! :rolleyes:

M. Sage
11-08-2007, 6:23 PM
I love all these ill informed passes at AR reliability.

They're just as good as the "you won't hit anything with an AK" jabs.

Sure, 2-3 MOA. Wooo, big deal. Good enough.

submaniac
11-08-2007, 6:24 PM
That right there is sig-line material. :D

Dude, I am so honored!!! :D