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SFV_Dealer
11-07-2007, 4:38 PM
Alright, so the question is:
Does anyone know how we Californians can get detachable magazine, pistol gripped, collapsible stocked, flash hider AR pattern rifle legally and comply with 12276.1 PC ???

Here are some snapshots of our prototype rifle that is legal for detachable magazine use:
5741
5742
5743
If you know or don't know, you can see and touch this at the Ventura Gun Show !

Cobrarlc
11-07-2007, 4:44 PM
The rifle is a 22lr upper with a Ceiner bolt conversion and magazine. The 22lr Ceiner 10 rnd mag has been installed in a normal mag body.
Looks good to go.

4 Brigada
11-07-2007, 4:50 PM
The rifle is a 22lr upper with a Ceiner bolt conversion and magazine. The 22lr Ceiner mag has been installed in a normal mag body.
Looks good to go.


Very nice, is it chambered for the .22LR only, cause I have conversion kit and there is post on the legality of the detachable magazine, if it uses a conversion instead of a dedicated 22LR barrel/upper. pretty interesting I learned a lot but Im still on the fence

NSR500
11-07-2007, 4:55 PM
.22 FTW!

tteng
11-07-2007, 5:46 PM
Anybody thought of rim-fired 223 cartridge and modified bolt(expense aside)? Would they be legal?

jandmtv
11-07-2007, 5:51 PM
Pat, thats the one i saw when i was at your store right? did you guys take it out to the range to try it out?

larryb
11-07-2007, 5:56 PM
So how much $$$$$$ are we looking at. Defintely a nice set up.

ohsmily
11-07-2007, 7:19 PM
Anybody thought of rim-fired 223 cartridge and modified bolt(expense aside)? Would they be legal?

It isn't physically practical for all practical purposes.

In order for a round to be rimfire, the rim/case must be thin enough for a firing pin to set it off. However, for a round to be potent and powerful (like 223/5.56) the case must be thick enough to contain the pressure. A rimfire 223 won't work.

!@#$
11-07-2007, 7:58 PM
It isn't physically practical for all practical purposes.

In order for a round to be rimfire, the rim/case must be thin enough for a firing pin to set it off. However, for a round to be potent and powerful (like 223/5.56) the case must be thick enough to contain the pressure. A rimfire 223 won't work.

aguila was messing around with this before sb23 passed. i don't think it went well...

TacFan
11-07-2007, 8:09 PM
this thread is worthless without prices :D

SFV_Dealer
11-08-2007, 8:24 AM
OK, This rifle is a 22LR dedicated AR rifle. That is how you can have a detachable magazine AR rifle!

The lower is a SABRE DEFENCE XR15 marked ".22 CAL RIMFIRE" and we have 100 on order - exclusive to us only!

The upper is a Olympic Arms .22LR marked barrel that actually is cut for .221 bullets (not .223 barrel using an adapter bolt carrier like the Colt or CZ). This dedicated upper has better accuracy and for cost effective training with detachable magazines.

The magazine is a 10 rd Olympic Arms 22LR mag inside a 30/10rd mag body.

Prices are still not available as this is a prototype unit. We are testing with a variety of ammunition from subsonic to hypervelocity 22LR ammunition.

Please keep watch on my website when the first 100 will be up for sale!

paradox
11-08-2007, 8:37 AM
It isn't physically practical for all practical purposes.

In order for a round to be rimfire, the rim/case must be thin enough for a firing pin to set it off. However, for a round to be potent and powerful (like 223/5.56) the case must be thick enough to contain the pressure. A rimfire 223 won't work.

Armalite seems to think otherwise...

http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=41930

larryb
11-08-2007, 6:46 PM
OK, This rifle is a 22LR dedicated AR rifle. That is how you can have a detachable magazine AR rifle!

The lower is a SABRE DEFENCE XR15 marked ".22 CAL RIMFIRE" and we have 100 on order - exclusive to us only!

The upper is a Olympic Arms .22LR marked barrel that actually is cut for .221 bullets (not .223 barrel using an adapter bolt carrier like the Colt or CZ). This dedicated upper has better accuracy and for cost effective training with detachable magazines.

The magazine is a 10 rd Olympic Arms 22LR mag inside a 30/10rd mag body.

Prices are still not available as this is a prototype unit. We are testing with a variety of ammunition from subsonic to hypervelocity 22LR ammunition.

Please keep watch on my website when the first 100 will be up for sale!

Any chance of rough estimate as far as pricing. I may have to put future gun purchases on hold till this is released :)

sloguy
11-08-2007, 7:15 PM
i am confused. whats wrong with using a rimfire kit in a ar with sb23 features?

smogcity
11-08-2007, 7:26 PM
:Ivan:

Count me in for one, what is the ETA?

TacFan
11-08-2007, 7:29 PM
:Ivan:

Count me in for one, what is the ETA?


You're second in line after me :p

4 Brigada
11-08-2007, 7:35 PM
i am confused. whats wrong with using a rimfire kit in a ar with sb23 features?


Same here, apparently there is an issue on what constitutes the real caliber of the rifle, some argue that the .223/5.56 chamber determines the caliber regardless of the bolt/magazine combination configuration. So that argument supports that you need a dedicated .22 chambered barrel to have the sb23 features. The other is if you have a conversion kit installed and do not have in the rifle the 5.56/.223 parts to be able to fire that round that the rifle is a .22lr and can have the sb23 features.

Edited later

there is a post about a ptr/hk .22 conversion kit that meandered into the AR subject, wish I knew how to link it

6litespeed9
11-09-2007, 12:35 AM
Would like to get one to play-please let me know the ETA

tombinghamthegreat
11-09-2007, 1:54 AM
I will see it at the gun show:)

SFV_Dealer
11-09-2007, 11:09 AM
Glad to know we have interest in this new rimfire AR platform rifle! Great for the Christmas stocking stuffer or for those that want to play with ammunition that is a fraction of 5.56mm ammunition these days.
For training these are the best because they mimic a centerfire rifle.

We will have a video on the performance using a variety of 22LR ammunition including subsonic, match, varmint, and hypervelocity of different grain weight bullets! Watch my website for a video link very shortly!

The picture of the prototype .22LR rifle you see will be on the video, but the actual production rifle will sport these features standard:

16" upper with a true .221" barrel dedicated for 22LR use (not the cheap way converting a .223" barrel into .22 by using a sleeve!
The upper will have the standard CAR heatshielded handguards, front A2 post, and a flatop rear for your sights. Complete with bolt carrier group and gray 30/10 rd .22LR magazine that looks like an AR15 magazine.
The lower will be a Sabre Defence XR15 marked "22 CAL RIMFIRE" so there is no mistake that this is a legal detachable magazine rifle.

This will be true .22LR rimfire dedicated rifle.

100 units are up for production. The lowers will be ready in 2 weeks. The uppers are 3-4 weeks away. What everyone is asking: PRICE = less than a 5.56mm AR around the $850 mark!!!

MrLogan
11-09-2007, 11:30 AM
Glad to know we have interest in this new rimfire AR platform rifle! Great for the Christmas stocking stuffer or for those that want to play with ammunition that is a fraction of 5.56mm ammunition these days.
For training these are the best because they mimic a centerfire rifle.

We will have a video on the performance using a variety of 22LR ammunition including subsonic, match, varmint, and hypervelocity of different grain weight bullets! Watch my website for a video link very shortly!

The picture of the prototype .22LR rifle you see will be on the video, but the actual production rifle will sport these features standard:

16" upper with a true .221" barrel dedicated for 22LR use (not the cheap way converting a .223" barrel into .22 by using a sleeve!
The upper will have the standard CAR heatshielded handguards, front A2 post, and a flatop rear for your sights. Complete with bolt carrier group and gray 30/10 rd .22LR magazine that looks like an AR15 magazine.
The lower will be a Sabre Defence XR15 marked "22 CAL RIMFIRE" so there is no mistake that this is a legal detachable magazine rifle.

This will be true .22LR rimfire dedicated rifle.

100 units are up for production. The lowers will be ready in 2 weeks. The uppers are 3-4 weeks away. What everyone is asking: PRICE = less than a 5.56mm AR around the $850 mark!!!

Hell yeah! Count me in for one. :eek:

maurice05
11-09-2007, 4:42 PM
ONCE THE FIRST HUNDRED ARE GONE ANY PLANS ON HAVING MORE MADE THIS IS JUST A BAD TIME OF FOR ME TO SPEND $900 IM SURE MY KIDS WOULD HATE ME ON CHRISTMAS MORNING EVEN THOUGH I DID TELL MY OLDEST DAUGHTER I WOULD GET HER A RIFLE SHE CAN USE. DAMN I NEED LAY-AWAY

sloguy
11-10-2007, 12:48 AM
ill ask again. why cant we just spend a few hundred for a rimfire kit for our existing oll rifles?

sloguy
11-11-2007, 4:59 AM
asking yet again, whats the difference from a legal standpoint of using a rimfire kit compared to this?

NeoWeird
11-11-2007, 5:19 AM
He already answered your question if you would just take the time to actually read and comprehend instead of just reading through (unless you don't understand the mechanics of firearms enough to understand what he is saying and why it is pertinent).

With conversion kits there are several major problems that arise. First they are usually ammo sensitive - he already mentioned they are using everything from subsonic to hyper veloctiy ammo (pretty much the range of all .22 ammo outside of a few special exceptions - like Colibri). Another problem is the bore diameter is larger on a 5.56/.223 than on a .22LR - he already said the bore diameter is the proper .221 instead of the .223 on most ARs. Also, 5.56/.223 barrels usually have a much too fast twist ratee - usually 1:7 to 1:9 where as most common .22LR ammo needs a 1:16 twist rate to properly stabilze in the air. It also won't have a gas port to gum up with lead shavings/fouling and will be marked as rimfire on all major parts for those people who want to be extra cautious. Also, this is IMPOSSIBLE to chamber 5.56/.223 ammo, so even if they drop your unit out and throw in a spare from their department no Cop/Sheriff will be able to chamber a centerfire round.

So you have a more accurate rifle that's less prone to failure with a broader range of ammo types without having to muck up and possibly damage your higher performance rifle.

I figure with the CTR stock, railed forend (even if it is a cheaper variant), Sabre Defense lower, custom work/fabrication, etc. I'd estimate that the rifle is probably going to start in the $1.2k range +/- $200.

sloguy
11-11-2007, 6:42 AM
He already answered your question if you would just take the time to actually read and comprehend instead of just reading through (unless you don't understand the mechanics of firearms enough to understand what he is saying and why it is pertinent).

With conversion kits there are several major problems that arise. First they are usually ammo sensitive - he already mentioned they are using everything from subsonic to hyper veloctiy ammo (pretty much the range of all .22 ammo outside of a few special exceptions - like Colibri). Another problem is the bore diameter is larger on a 5.56/.223 than on a .22LR - he already said the bore diameter is the proper .221 instead of the .223 on most ARs. Also, 5.56/.223 barrels usually have a much too fast twist ratee - usually 1:7 to 1:9 where as most common .22LR ammo needs a 1:16 twist rate to properly stabilze in the air. It also won't have a gas port to gum up with lead shavings/fouling and will be marked as rimfire on all major parts for those people who want to be extra cautious. Also, this is IMPOSSIBLE to chamber 5.56/.223 ammo, so even if they drop your unit out and throw in a spare from their department no Cop/Sheriff will be able to chamber a centerfire round.

So you have a more accurate rifle that's less prone to failure with a broader range of ammo types without having to muck up and possibly damage your higher performance rifle.

I figure with the CTR stock, railed forend (even if it is a cheaper variant), Sabre Defense lower, custom work/fabrication, etc. I'd estimate that the rifle is probably going to start in the $1.2k range +/- $200.


thank you for actually answering the question.

im not questioning if the product is better, i am asking why there is somthing wrong legally with using a rimfire kit with a detachable magazine. the reason you give for why not is because a cop can break the law and frame you?

so, from that standpoint, wouldnt the use of a bullet button remedy that possibility?

grammaton76
11-11-2007, 12:33 PM
Eh, last year I installed a dedicated 22LR upper on my AR, as did a lot of other Calgunners. I don't quite get why folks are acting like this is some new discovery. The rifle here is considerably better than using a Ceiner kit though. As for dedicated 22LR uppers... DPMS has one, there's a CZ V-22 upper out there, and I'm pretty sure there's some other manufacturers too.

Sydwaiz
11-11-2007, 2:13 PM
Need one in .22 magnum or .17 hmr.

DedEye
11-11-2007, 2:44 PM
This is a pretty cool rifle. JJPerl and I saw it at the Ventura Funshow and when I was looking at it I noticed the mag release wasn't a bullet button or Prince50. Curious, I pressed the button and nearly shat myself when the mag dropped free. We looked at each other then I looked at the mag and realized I was holding this gun (I didn't realize I was at Metroshot's table).

Personally I'm gonna go with a Spike's dedicated .22 upper so I can use my preban Ceiner mags, but if you don't own any hi capacity .22 magazines and want to go with an evil looking .22, you can do worse than this rifle ;).

River Jack
11-11-2007, 3:06 PM
I'll shell out for one of these! Is there a waiting list? Can we ask for custom serial #s?

RJ

SFV_Dealer
11-14-2007, 6:54 AM
Update:
Complete rifle available in 2-3 weeks.

Sabre .22LR marked lowers will be here in 10 days.

There is .17M2 conversion sleeve available as well as the .22LR for those that varmint hunt as well as plink!

These use the Ciener bolt system so the Black Dog Machine magazines will work!

DedEye
11-14-2007, 10:27 AM
Side question now, since you mentioned it uses the Ciener bolt:

Where do I buy those mags and how much are they? They'd work with a Spike's .22 upper, correct?

SFV_Dealer
11-15-2007, 6:43 AM
Correction,
Just found out that these are NOT Ciener design - they are called "Max Atchison M16 conversion".

They are NOT Spike's compatible. Spikes uses a modified Ciener design.

The .22R upper manufacturer is talking to Black Dog Machine about the conversion to make the mags work with the Atchison

The $64,000 question and answer for those waiting to buy one:

Price for the basic CAR/M4 .22LR Detachable mag rifle is now comiing in at around $850 +/- 10% depending on how much we get the uppers for.
Time estimated of full rifle deliveries before Christmas! Perfect stocking stuffer gift to find for yourself on Christmas morning!! Say thanks to Santa!
Metroshot

maurice05
11-15-2007, 8:18 AM
so i will e able to buy the lower now and get it dros'ed and the come back in january and purchase the upper to complete the rifle?

frigginchi
11-15-2007, 8:45 AM
cost on receiver only?


Correction,
Just found out that these are NOT Ciener design - they are called "Max Atchison M16 conversion".

They are NOT Spike's compatible. Spikes uses a modified Ciener design.

The .22R upper manufacturer is talking to Black Dog Machine about the conversion to make the mags work with the Atchison

The $64,000 question and answer for those waiting to buy one:

Price for the basic CAR/M4 .22LR Detachable mag rifle is now comiing in at around $850 +/- 10% depending on how much we get the uppers for.
Time estimated of full rifle deliveries before Christmas! Perfect stocking stuffer gift to find for yourself on Christmas morning!! Say thanks to Santa!
Metroshot

MrLogan
11-15-2007, 10:00 AM
Yeah, if we buy the lower first, can we come back and buy only an upper later? How much for the lower itself? :D