PDA

View Full Version : SBR question


Prc329
11-05-2007, 7:36 PM
O.K., I have a question and searching did not bring me the answers I am looking for.


I am planning on building an upper and I want to use an 11.5" barrel and permanently attach a flash hider to make it 16". Would I be committing a no-no by having all the parts for the upper unassembled sitting in my safe next to a stripped lower?

I have my Calguns lower that has no pistol grip or stock attached but does have a FCG and a bullet button. Would it be wrong to have the short 11.5" barrel and the rest of the parts to an unassembled upper?

I do understand the AW laws meaning that an unassembled gun is not constructive possession but I am not sure about this scenario.

RP1911
11-05-2007, 7:49 PM
Yes it would be wrong.

RANGER295
11-05-2007, 7:53 PM
Do a search on constructive possession. Almost the same as having it assembled.

Prc329
11-05-2007, 8:08 PM
When I searched all I found was references to complete uppers and lowers.

Josh3239
11-05-2007, 8:11 PM
I do understand the AW laws meaning that an unassembled gun is not constructive possession but I am not sure about this scenario.

Constructive possession doesn't mean anything in California gun laws. The federal government does have constructive possession... especially when it comes to NFA items. You could be charged with constructive possession of an SBR.

Get that flash hider permanently attached before it gets to you.

blkA4alb
11-05-2007, 8:15 PM
Constructive possession doesn't mean anything in California gun laws. The federal government does have constructive possession... especially when it comes to NFA items. You could be charged with constructive possession of an SBR.

Get that flash hider permanently attached before it gets to you.

No, California does have its own constructive possession laws as well as the Federal ones.

(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
< span class="description">(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Josh3239
11-05-2007, 8:16 PM
My mistake, it does when it comes to NFA. But only NFA yes?

blkA4alb
11-05-2007, 8:18 PM
My mistake, it does when it comes to NFA. But only NFA yes?

Yes. There is no constructive possession for AWs.

RANGER295
11-05-2007, 8:21 PM
Constructive possession doesn't mean anything in California gun laws. The federal government does have constructive possession... especially when it comes to NFA items. You could be charged with constructive possession of an SBR.

Get that flash hider permanently attached before it gets to you.

I am pretty sure that CA does have constructive possession issues with SBR’s and other NFA type weapons. Constructive possession does not apply to AW’s however. In other words, it would be fine for me to have a M1A with a muzzle break and to have a FH sitting right next to it. It would not be ok to have an AR pistol upper and an AR lower. I believe that this goes for both state and feds.

EDIT: BlkA4alb beat me to it while I was typing. But I will leave it anyway.

bwiese
11-05-2007, 8:25 PM
Josh3xxx is incorrect. CA does not have constructive possession concepts for AW matters, but CA indeed has laws paralleling the Fed constructive possession laws for SBRs, SBSes and MGs. 'Constructive possession' concepts/definitions for SBRs & SBSes are covered in 12020(c)(1, 2) PC definitons in CA Penal Code; MG constructive possession is codified in 12200PC definition of MG.

[These definitions, in fact, are why we DON'T have constructive possession for AWs: the fact it's codified for SBRs, MGs, etc. specifically but not elsewhere essentially forces SB23 to be non-C.P. (Plus we have backing from DOJ letter to Chuck Michel from Deputy AG Tim Rieger.)]

Since you already possess an OLL lower or rifle (and the lower is not legal as a pistol; few OLLs in CA are right now), you certainly should not acquire a short bbl'd upper - nor, IMHO, should you have a disassembled short bbl + bare upper receiver if you possess an OLL lower.

I recommend you have your upper or bbl vendor pin/weld the muzzle device of your choice on the shorter-than-16" bbl and for you *not* to acquire the separate bbl and separate bare upper. If you wanna use an existing upper in your inventory for your new complete upper, send that upper to the bbl vendor for mounting.

bwiese
11-05-2007, 9:12 PM
Not sure about SBRs - but probably. Certainly for MGs.

C.P is codified by definining a banned item as what it is assembled, plus adding "any part or combination of parts..." yadayadayada in the definition.

CA's C.P. laws for NFA-type stuff pretty much echo the Fed language.

The *only* reason we have no constructive possession of AW's in CA is that the DOJ was forced to make that ruling. If they didn't, then everyone who owned an AW and removed the evil features to avoid registration (as recommended by the DOJ) would still be in violation of the law)

C.P. has really nothing to do with any DOJ determination itself but the way the law was written.

If SB23 AW definitions passed by Legislature in 1999 had included language similar to that in 12200 for MGs or 12020(c)(1,2) for SBRs/SBSes then it would exist for AWs too.

RP1911
11-05-2007, 9:24 PM
While we're on the topic, has the ATF ever busted anyone, EVER, for constructive possession of a SBR?

Yes. I am very familiar with a case that resulted in the individual spending time in a federal peniteniary.

Prc329
11-05-2007, 9:25 PM
Josh3xxx is incorrect. CA does not have constructive possession concepts for AW matters, but CA indeed has laws paralleling the Fed constructive possession laws for SBRs, SBSes and MGs. 'Constructive possession' concepts/definitions for SBRs & SBSes are covered in 12020(c)(1, 2) PC definitons in CA Penal Code; MG constructive possession is codified in 12200PC definition of MG.

[These definitions, in fact, are why we DON'T have constructive possession for AWs: the fact it's codified for SBRs, MGs, etc. specifically but not elsewhere essentially forces SB23 to be non-C.P. (Plus we have backing from DOJ letter to Chuck Michel from Tim Rieger.)]

You certainly should not acquire a short bbl'd upper - nor, IMHO, a disassembled short bbl + bare upper receiver. I recommend you have your upper or bbl vendor pin/weld the muzzle device of your choice on the shorter-than-16" bbl and for you *not* to acquire the separate bbl and separate bare upper. If you wanna use an existing upper in your inventory for your new complete upper, send that upper to the bbl vendor for mounting.

Thanks.