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View Full Version : Idea to get more AR15 pistols into the state


AJAX22
11-04-2007, 8:50 PM
As I was sitting looking at some of my projects I had an idea.

It might be a bad one, but I thought I'd run it by the rest of you guys.

I was thinking about putting together a number of bolt action single shot pistol uppers that people could use to get their lowers through dros.

You would still have to buy a complete pistol lower (equipped with a maglock and sled) but instead of having to shell out for a complete pistol upper that you won't use for anything but getting it through dros, you could just kick in a$50 donation(or some AR parts) and 'rent' one of these for the 10-30 day period while your pistol sits at the FFL's getting dros'd.

Then you send the upper back to me and go about building up your CA legal AR pistol as a semi auto pinned mag, or a bolt action straight pull etc. and I pass the upper along to the out of state pistol builder for the next guy on the list.

It wouldn't really be a money making project for me, (I'd probably have close to 300-350 in each upper even with used parts) and to make this work I'd have to build at least three uppers.

but it'd be a way to help people get these into the state faster, and I'd get some extra parts and funds to put towards more uppers and future endeavors.

So... thoughts? suggestions?

FatKatMatt
11-04-2007, 10:14 PM
I think it's a good idea for the folks that want these, the only problem I see is that you're relying on people to be honest; I figure there are a few people that would rather keep the upper for $50 than ship it back to you. Though I find the majority of the people on this site to be very upstanding individuals, you never know.

Good luck with your project!

M. Sage
11-04-2007, 10:22 PM
It has to have an upper on it to get shipped into the state.

It would have to go like this:

Get the upper, send it to a friendly FFL or manufacturer who will install it on a lower, then ship the complete pistol to the FFL of your choice. Then you take off the lower and send it along for $50 to the next person in line who sends it back to the manufacturer....

Q
11-05-2007, 7:43 AM
I'll need one.:D

DRM6000
11-05-2007, 10:39 AM
how about you offer to modify uppers for people or sell parts kits? that should eliminate any chance of liabilty on your part. my concern here is that if somebody gets in trouble for an ar-style pistol and names you as a person who helped import one since you lent the part out. also, there's no risk of you losing parts through the delivery system or dishonest people.

bwiese
11-05-2007, 10:50 AM
Good idea, but you might get reamed as this goes out beyond scope of Calguns members

You're gonna need to deal with something like a 'core charge' set up and get a person's Visa or Master Card #, bill the $400, rebate $350 on receipt of upper again. End user responsible for postage + insurance both ways and 'specific performance' within a certain time period.

Even then you probably will at best just come close to breaking even and at a lot of grief.

I suspect this may be best arranged by Our Friendly Vendors who already have credit card stuff set up and cooperating FFLs they have relationships with, and who can fling those uppers back & forth with other transactions.

gose
11-05-2007, 11:21 AM
Can't you just have the gas tube removed before shipping it into CA?

bwiese
11-05-2007, 11:35 AM
Can't you just have the gas tube removed before shipping it into CA?

Yes, but the gas port will need to be blocked as well.

It might even make sense for the initial ones to use bolt carriers with gas keys removed.

AJAX22
11-05-2007, 12:07 PM
Thanks for the input... It looks like this is something I need to think about a bit more.

The whole point of renting the uppers would be to lower the purchase price of the AR15 pistols for people to get it below 450-500 that seems to be the magic cut off for peoples gun purchases. (complete pistol lowers with shipping and assembly should run about 300-375) after dealer transfer fees and shipping the upper back and forth it should still be well below 500.

I could easily modify uppers for people or assemble them with bolt action pistol barrels (heck I had a whole custom run of AR pistol barrels made up)

I just wanted to help eliminate the constructive possession problems by sending the uppers directly to the manufacturer/assembling FFL.

I realise that there is a huge opportunity for me to get burned on this, (depending on the scale that I tried it on, it could be a rather painful one) and I know this wouldn't be a money making opportunity (it would take almost seven months of having the uppers continuously rented to break even), I just wanted to help people pursue getting OLL pistols in the state.

Since the margins are so slim and the risk is so high, It might be difficult to coax the vendors into participating in this. (and if the vendors got involved I couldn't offer a barter option for more AR parts to keep the project rolling) and if the vendors wound up implementing a core charge process, It would almost have to be something that they handled in house. I could donate the use of the uppers I built, but I don't think it would be cost effective for them to use mine vs. using some pistol uppers of their own.

I was thinking that it might be a good idea to just go to a local FFL who is performing single shot transfers and offer him the use of the uppers. So he can deal with sending them back and forth to the manufacturer, and the uppers stay at the store after the customer picks up the lower (which would eliminate allot of the risk) The increase in OLL pistol sales and the revenue generated from that might be enough of an incentive for the FFL to deal with the hassle involved with shipping the uppers, and people who use the service could make a donation of parts or $$ separate from the purcahse. (if the risk of loss was minimized/eliminated people could just be on the honor system)


Some other options would be:

I can put together cheap pistol upper kits, but I don't know what sort of liability that opens me up to and then we have the same problem of people buying parts they won't use in the long run. and it won't do much for reducing the cost barrier to getting an OLL

I can just keep offering single shot 6 inch + barrels at cost so that people can slap together their own ca legal pistol uppers (I was talking with a vendor about selling them for me so I don't have to deal with billing/shipping/explaining constructive possession over and over again)


one of the nicest part of ar15's is that the cost can be spread out over several major/minor component purchases, the problem with OLL pistols seems to be that you can't break down the costs to the point where it becomes 'reasonable'.

I'm open to any ideas people have that will help get OLL pistols into the state... it seems like a general lack of organization is the biggest obstacle to overcome. I'm willing to help out in whatever way I can (I bought the bending jig Sal's been using to enable people to make their own AK pistol receivers) But there is a limit to the scale of what I can fund (I'm a college student).

Having a number of pistol uppers which can be lent out is a feasible prospect for me, because I have a ready supply of the correct barrels, a collection of bolts/bolt carriers/charging handles and some inexpensive uppers in my parts bin that I've been saving for just such an occasion.

I'm completely open to other options, but whatever the plan winds up being it should be something that can start out small scale and be expanded to meet demand.

DRM6000
11-05-2007, 12:46 PM
what about installing an unfinished barrel on the upper and maybe tackweld the barrel nut on? it'll render the upper unusable deterring theft?

Fjold
11-05-2007, 12:51 PM
I would like to see a bolt action upper with no gas hole at all in the barrel.

aplinker
11-05-2007, 1:45 PM
I think if you started out small-scale amongst people close to the board, you would be able to get things started.

I'm not sure where this idea of needing the gas port closed comes from. I would say it's being overly cautious. Just because the bolt opens on firing, without a magazine (a sled + BB/P50), there's no way to load the next round. It's hence a single-shot pistol. From the standpoint of this project it's probably much easier to do it this way (closed gas port) because you can use hacked down, run to crap rifle barrels. I would even suggest asking someone like Randall or finding someone who has shot-out barrels that could be hacksawed. That would cut down on price.

Given that this is going to need to be done through good-guy FFL's, I would say it might be something best handled from there. I'm pretty sure there will only be a few, to start. Actually, it might even make more sense to do it through one of the out-of-state shippers who's willing to do the core charge idea. $X for the pistol, $Y returned upon "exchanging" the upper for another...

Though the amount of effort involved in that is higher than just making them. If you kept it with just good Calguns members, I'm sure you'd be just fine.

Thanks for the input... It looks like this is something I need to think about a bit more.

The whole point of renting the uppers would be to lower the purchase price of the AR15 pistols for people to get it below 450-500 that seems to be the magic cut off for peoples gun purchases. (complete pistol lowers with shipping and assembly should run about 300-375) after dealer transfer fees and shipping the upper back and forth it should still be well below 500.

I could easily modify uppers for people or assemble them with bolt action pistol barrels (heck I had a whole custom run of AR pistol barrels made up)

I just wanted to help eliminate the constructive possession problems by sending the uppers directly to the manufacturer/assembling FFL.

I realise that there is a huge opportunity for me to get burned on this, (depending on the scale that I tried it on, it could be a rather painful one) and I know this wouldn't be a money making opportunity (it would take almost seven months of having the uppers continuously rented to break even), I just wanted to help people pursue getting OLL pistols in the state.

Since the margins are so slim and the risk is so high, It might be difficult to coax the vendors into participating in this. (and if the vendors got involved I couldn't offer a barter option for more AR parts to keep the project rolling) and if the vendors wound up implementing a core charge process, It would almost have to be something that they handled in house. I could donate the use of the uppers I built, but I don't think it would be cost effective for them to use mine vs. using some pistol uppers of their own.

I was thinking that it might be a good idea to just go to a local FFL who is performing single shot transfers and offer him the use of the uppers. So he can deal with sending them back and forth to the manufacturer, and the uppers stay at the store after the customer picks up the lower (which would eliminate allot of the risk) The increase in OLL pistol sales and the revenue generated from that might be enough of an incentive for the FFL to deal with the hassle involved with shipping the uppers, and people who use the service could make a donation of parts or $$ separate from the purcahse. (if the risk of loss was minimized/eliminated people could just be on the honor system)


Some other options would be:

I can put together cheap pistol upper kits, but I don't know what sort of liability that opens me up to and then we have the same problem of people buying parts they won't use in the long run. and it won't do much for reducing the cost barrier to getting an OLL

I can just keep offering single shot 6 inch + barrels at cost so that people can slap together their own ca legal pistol uppers (I was talking with a vendor about selling them for me so I don't have to deal with billing/shipping/explaining constructive possession over and over again)


one of the nicest part of ar15's is that the cost can be spread out over several major/minor component purchases, the problem with OLL pistols seems to be that you can't break down the costs to the point where it becomes 'reasonable'.

I'm open to any ideas people have that will help get OLL pistols into the state... it seems like a general lack of organization is the biggest obstacle to overcome. I'm willing to help out in whatever way I can (I bought the bending jig Sal's been using to enable people to make their own AK pistol receivers) But there is a limit to the scale of what I can fund (I'm a college student).

Having a number of pistol uppers which can be lent out is a feasible prospect for me, because I have a ready supply of the correct barrels, a collection of bolts/bolt carriers/charging handles and some inexpensive uppers in my parts bin that I've been saving for just such an occasion.

I'm completely open to other options, but whatever the plan winds up being it should be something that can start out small scale and be expanded to meet demand.

bwiese
11-05-2007, 3:30 PM
I'm not sure where this idea of needing the gas port closed comes from.

Hain't a legal matter, safety. You don't want untrapped hot gas going backwards from that open gas port redirected back to you thru your front sight block.

Blue
11-05-2007, 6:37 PM
Guys, I've got a 20" barrel and barrel nut that I'd more than gladly donate to this cause. I can even chop it down at work if needed. The chamber is out of spec (what I've been told) so as long as this isn't going to be fired I don't see a problem. Hell I might even have an A2 upper that I could attach it to. I'll even send it to Ajax so he can deal with the shipping and corecharge hassles :D

AJAX22
11-05-2007, 9:57 PM
Guys, I've got a 20" barrel and barrel nut that I'd more than gladly donate to this cause. I can even chop it down at work if needed. The chamber is out of spec (what I've been told) so as long as this isn't going to be fired I don't see a problem. Hell I might even have an A2 upper that I could attach it to. I'll even send it to Ajax so he can deal with the shipping and corecharge hassles :D

Thanks blue, but I'd like to try to make this happen without passing the hat (that way if it doesn't work out for whatever reason I just sell off the extra parts and walk away with a minimal loss.) I'd prefer to keep this a pure exercise in freemarket capitalism, otherwise I'd feel bad if I had to pull out of the endevor (I don't want to be seen as scamming parts off people)

Right now this is just an idea and some parts in a spare's bin, its going to take a bit of organising to make this happen.

I'll probably do one or two uppers and start out small scale while we work out all the kinks in the system (lower vendors who will participate, FFL's who will transfer them, prefered shipping meathods etc.) and basicly try to idiot proof the process.

I'd like to figure a way around having a core charge.... The whole point is to lower the price barrier to OLL pistol ownership and having a 3 or 400$ deposit will proably deter alot of folks.

Lotts to think about,

all input is appriciated.

aplinker
11-05-2007, 10:32 PM
I'm not saying have an open gas port with no gas tube. I'm saying have a fully functional bolt, gas tube and port.

Without the ability to use a magazine, the pistol is single shot. You can't load any additional rounds. What the bolt does after the single round is fired is meaningless. It's not semi-automatic, as there's no additional round chambered.

Hain't a legal matter, safety. You don't want untrapped hot gas going backwards from that open gas port redirected back to you thru your front sight block.

AJAX22
11-06-2007, 10:20 AM
I'm not saying have an open gas port with no gas tube. I'm saying have a fully functional bolt, gas tube and port.

Without the ability to use a magazine, the pistol is single shot. You can't load any additional rounds. What the bolt does after the single round is fired is meaningless. It's not semi-automatic, as there's no additional round chambered.

UCLA you're technically correct, and there are FFL's willing to transfer pistols which are configured the way you describe. However because of the temporary nature of the configuration, the argument can be made that they are a semi automatic action which has been interupted. With the removal of a single component they become functional semi auto guns, (removing the part does not render the gun non-operational in the case of the sleds) The BOF would not be able to make that determination stick, but they could throw a whole lot of hassle at us.

Because the BOF theoretically could sieze the guns and hold them almost indefinitly most FFL's won't touch guns configured in this manner. Having an exposed/visible barrel with no gas tube (wether the port is undrilled, or the FSB has been tapped and plugged) eliminates this potential grey area.

We're walking a very fine line on this, its not a matter of legal definition at this point but a matter of getting them accepted by the mainstream public. Each one of these that gets transfered into the state will be seen by 20-50 people at the range + more as it sits at the store getting DROS'd and its about spreading awareness and strength in numbers.

We want to minimize the hassle and cost so that we can get as many people involved in this as possible.

Down the road we can start pushing the envelope a bit more, but the first step for widespread acceptence should be stripped bare barrels with manually operated actions. It will be easier to get FFL's to transfer these, and it will be easier to explain them to inquiring individuals.

I've got about six different firearm platforms that I'd like to get this going on, but I just don't have the funds to do all at the same time.

First will be the AR, then the UZI, then the AK, I've got a working design for an inexpensive single shot upper for 1911 frames and I'm working on an inexpensive single shot cylinder/barrel insert design which will allow standard frame S&W and Colt revolvers to be imported to CA.

I just think that because of the amount of interest in AR15 based pistols, those are the best place to start and will be the easiest to get dealers who are OLL friendly to go along with.

So in the interests of getting as many OLL pistol owners in CA as possible I think this is the direction to put energy into.