PDA

View Full Version : AR15 + law enforcement, but no negitve action taken?


onekickkawi
11-04-2007, 2:28 PM
so i have done my reading on the forum here and many others. I understand that i can legally by the letter of the law build a AR15 with a OLL lower with a button bullet and 10round mag and be legal, by the letter of the law.

but its seems many people are are still worried about missinterpitation of there wepon by an officer ( i dont blame you!)

My question is how many people have ran into a situation where their gun is inspected by an officer or agent in suspission of being an assualt weapon. I want to know how many people have had there guns handed back.

I am a little hesitant even though its legal, that my gun will be confiscated and i will get into trouble for no real crime.

M. Sage
11-04-2007, 2:50 PM
I am a little hesitant even though its legal, that my gun will be confiscated and i will get into trouble for no real crime.

This is actually somewhat of a problem. If that's a worry for you, the standard advice is to avoid the off-list guns for now. The DOJ is still spreading FUD about off-list rifles.

Do some more looking around on here. Look at the Matthew Corwin case in particular.

It can happen. It does happen. It shouldn't happen.

The flip side is that the more people go off-list, the more the information about them spreads, and the more that happens, the less likely you'll be to run into trouble for doing something legal.

Welcome to Calguns!

Nuuze
11-04-2007, 3:07 PM
I wonder about this also. Do you that own these rifles get hassled at all at the local ranges? I'm holding off on getting one if it ends up having to stay in the safe and never able to take it to the range.

Thanks.

M. Sage
11-04-2007, 3:16 PM
No, I've never been hassled, and never seen anyone get hassled. In fact, the range staff everwhere I've shot my Romy all love off-list rifles.

I frequent a range that's also frequented by LEO (agencies AND individuals, including the "top expert" for DOJ's BoF) and have never been hassled, nor seen anybody hassled.

Unless you count "that's legal? Awesome! How do I get one!?" as being hassled.

Nuuze
11-04-2007, 3:21 PM
Nice! Once I have the funds available I may consider getting one. Just afraid if I take it to the range and get hassled and possibly taken. Is it cheaper buying a complete one or building? I would know where to start if I built...Thanks.

M. Sage
11-04-2007, 3:25 PM
IMO, build vs buy depends on a few things. If you have a very specific plan on what you want, and/or can't find exactly what you want commercially, then build away (if you've got the skills. :p ). If you want "just an AR" or "just an AK", then hit one of the fine vendors on CG.

onekickkawi
11-04-2007, 6:29 PM
im still gonna build one. 10 days and i will placing my order. I cant wait! I just want to get a feel for what has happend as far as run-ins with the authoritys

also i read somewhere (i think on rifle gear.com) that a bullet is considered a tool. Also that the bullet button and Prince 50 are both still not CA DOJ approved. does that mean anything? and on a second note what i machined my own bullet button with a hole smaller then a bullet so you would have to use a pin or small piece of metal.. then that would be using a acual tool... not a bullet. What do ya guys think?

Blue
11-04-2007, 6:42 PM
I've never been hassled with my current OLL's, but when the Fab10 was still "the new gun on the block" I got harassed. Once I explained to the cop what the deal was, he was very cool, and interested in it. He cut me loose and asked where he could get one :D

M. Sage
11-04-2007, 6:49 PM
im still gonna build one. 10 days and i will placing my order. I cant wait! I just want to get a feel for what has happend as far as run-ins with the authoritys

also i read somewhere (i think on rifle gear.com) that a bullet is considered a tool. Also that the bullet button and Prince 50 are both still not CA DOJ approved. does that mean anything? and on a second note what i machined my own bullet button with a hole smaller then a bullet so you would have to use a pin or small piece of metal.. then that would be using a acual tool... not a bullet. What do ya guys think?

A bullet is considered a tool. The DOJ will never approve of (or disapprove of) a bullet button or mag-lock, or alternate grip...

Here: http://www.cheapspeech.com/ar-flier.pdf

As for me, I'm a fan of featureless. Nothing like being able to drop the mag without a tool.

Nuuze
11-04-2007, 8:50 PM
I've never been hassled with my current OLL's, but when the Fab10 was still "the new gun on the block" I got harassed. Once I explained to the cop what the deal was, he was very cool, and interested in it. He cut me loose and asked where he could get one :D


That was cool of the cop! :D

chiefcrash
11-04-2007, 9:03 PM
I've had Iggy himself eye my OLL build at the Chabot range, but he didn't even so much as say a word...

later that night, there was no black stealth helicopters or JBTs breaking down my door. I can't be sure if it was the legality of my rifle or my tin foil hat that saved me...

fun2none
11-04-2007, 9:27 PM
You may want be aware of the follow, thanks to hoffmang:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf

The State's chief LEO said he is not going to enforce the DOJ-BOF's failed interpretation of permanent non-detachable magazine vs non-permanent detachable magazines :confused:.

onekickkawi
11-04-2007, 11:58 PM
You may want be aware of the follow, thanks to hoffmang:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf

The State's chief LEO said he is not going to enforce the DOJ-BOF's failed interpretation of permanent non-detachable magazine vs non-permanent detachable magazines :confused:.

im not quiet fallowing that...

Ford8N
11-05-2007, 5:06 AM
You may want be aware of the follow, thanks to hoffmang:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf

The State's chief LEO said he is not going to enforce the DOJ-BOF's failed interpretation of permanent non-detachable magazine vs non-permanent detachable magazines :confused:.


Same here. It's about as clear as mud. Typical example of FUD.

Forestboy
11-05-2007, 6:56 AM
I've gone out of my way to show my OLL with all the evil features(verticle fore grip, flash suppressor, 6 position collapsable stock, EOTech and ACOG, bullet button, gas piston upper from POF, predator rail) to every LEO I have met here in California. I am now on the hook to help them build their very own. :D I guess they liked mine. Building one for a CHP and one for a San Bernardino County Sherrif's Deputy.

chico.cm
11-05-2007, 9:01 AM
I wonder if anyone has taken the documentation provided by Gene to their local DA and gotten an opinion as to what enforcement might be like.
I am inclined to do so--to test the waters in my city/county.
Is this a bad idea? Or is it even worth it?

bwiese
11-05-2007, 10:35 AM
I wonder if anyone has taken the documentation provided by Gene to their local DA and gotten an opinion as to what enforcement might be like.
I am inclined to do so--to test the waters in my city/county.
Is this a bad idea? Or is it even worth it?

The response will be generalities about 12276.1 and then, "We are not your lawyers and cannot give you legal advice. Please consult your own attorney."

WolfMansDad
11-05-2007, 11:14 AM
I see people with off-list rifles at my local range (Angeles) all the time. LEOs bring their rifles and shoot, too, and everybody seems to get along. I was even with a group once shooting an off-list rifle, and nobody hassled us. The range officers didn't even care that we didn't drop the mag during cease fires. We had an open-bolt indicator, and they seemed happy with that.

PIRATE14
11-05-2007, 12:23 PM
"FREEDOM IS NOT FREE".......you've got to fight for your rights..........:chris:

bwiese
11-05-2007, 12:37 PM
"FREEDOM IS NOT FREE".......you've got to fight for your rights..........:chris:

Truly spoken by a guy who's actually done some fighting .

FreedomIsNotFree
11-05-2007, 1:05 PM
Did someone call...

chico.cm
11-05-2007, 3:59 PM
I appreciate what you said Bill, but don't they have to document their position as a DA? I'm a simple guy, but it seems to me that an elected Sheriff and an elected DA have to answer for what and whom they chose to prosecute??! :confused:

bwiese
11-05-2007, 4:06 PM
I appreciate what you said Bill, but don't they have to document their position as a DA? I'm a simple guy, but it seems to me that an elected Sheriff and an elected DA have to answer for what and whom they chose to prosecute??! :confused:

Sure, you can unelect them. So go vote and get other gunners to vote - which you should be doing anyway! See if you can find synergies in your community to oppose that DA for other causes if he's popping people for OLLs. Remember that most OLL cases were in metro areas except for the FFL ones which were initially pushed and then abandoned by DOJ.

Documenting their positions? In metro areas, it's likely you'll actually back them into a corner where they have to 'act like they're doing something about guns on the street', and maybe force them keep on trying to sustain unwinnable proseuctions just for this purpose. Better to let things die quietly and not have them have to exercise their flopping jowls.

As far as technical legal questions being answered by DA, we do live in an adversarial system and they don't have to answer your legal questions. The typical response to legal questions of any DA's office is "The law treating XXX says that A, B, C... If you have further legal questions, please consult your attorney."

The other issue is that we're dealing with technical details that most DAs/investigators/cops know nothing of. For them to answer our question would involve staff time that's pretty limited and devoted to prosecutions as it is. Given that most run-of-the-mill cases get run around between 4-5 junior DAs looking for pleas, with probably not over 10-20 minutes per junior DA expended in analysis of your case, there's no way they're gonna take the time and trouble to "just give out info" especially as they have no formal duty to do so.

It appears that most OLL-related cases over last year were brought by female junior DAs in their late 20s to early 30s. Some if not all are proverbial soccer moms, have no idea of gun technology or law details, and "a black rifle is a black rifle".

Most all of the OLL worries are subsiding - we now have paperwork and activity at OAL level showing the regulation was not submitted and that AG does not generally intend to attempt to enforce the proposed regulatory definition for fixed mags. Harrott is becoming more recognized, more cops realize there are these odd rifles with funky configurations than are not banned, etc.

artherd
11-05-2007, 11:17 PM
"FREEDOM IS NOT FREE".......you've got to fight for your rights..........:chris:
Well said, by someone who's been there and done that. :chris:

artherd
11-05-2007, 11:17 PM
"FREEDOM IS NOT FREE".......you've got to fight for your rights..........:chris:
Well said, by someone who's been there and done that. :chris:

WokMaster1
11-06-2007, 8:44 AM
This is just a crazy thought. My local ranges are Chabot, Richmond & Concord. Can we Calgunners in the SF Bay area host an OLL day for local LEO agencies? I'll bring mine & 1K ammo for LEOs just to let them have a fun time shooting down range & let them learn about OLLs.

Bill, you can hold a quick 1/2 hour seminar on the legalities & hand out some info that will help them with some research. Hell, I'll even provide lunch for all participants.

If we in the Bay area can volunteer & donate time & money for ammo & range time, I think we can have some success here on the street level. If the patrol officers understand the legalities, no one will get harrassed or arrested for a legally configured OLL, so we cut the DAs out of the picture. Of course we have to pound the pavement to invite officers & deputies on the street to sign up. I've a feeling that going to the front office at the stations will not help at all.

What do you think?

Addax
11-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Is there anyway we could put together an OLL Users guide?

I have a binder I take with me when I go shooting, but I would rather have a small handheld users guide instead. Just so I can show whomever comes asking me questions (LEO or Non LEO), regarding my OLL's, at least I have something in writing to show them that is quick to read, vs. having to go through a binder full of pages.

Just a thought.

I would not mind helping out $$ if we organize and put together something like this.

bwiese
11-06-2007, 10:37 AM
Right now the existing materials - albeit conservative - suffice.

The new doc I've been working on has some exploits that need to be further analyzed before they become courses of action as opposed to valid legal defense. So that's why that has been held up.

chico.cm
11-06-2007, 2:11 PM
Bill,
As always, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
Thanks for your insights.

Suvorov
11-06-2007, 2:48 PM
This is just a crazy thought. My local ranges are Chabot, Richmond & Concord. Can we Calgunners in the SF Bay area host an OLL day for local LEO agencies? I'll bring mine & 1K ammo for LEOs just to let them have a fun time shooting down range & let them learn about OLLs.

What do you think?


My guess is that the LEOs who would be interested in attending just such an event are already fully aware of the legality of OLLs and are already on our side. My experience is that police and soldiers are in their professional lives, like they are in their personal lives. If they don't like guns, then they will not seek to shoot them any more than is necessary for them to qualify. These are they ignorant guys to worry about, not the ones always looking for a chance to bust caps down at the range. So while your idea might be a good way to meet future shooting buddies and extend some good will, I doubt it will have any influence on our "target" audience. Also, at the price of .223 these days, I'm not giving it out to cops who can get their ammo for free.

SC_Chewy
11-06-2007, 4:57 PM
I have family that is Bay Area LEO and he has uses a M16A2 in the course of his work. We got to talking one afternoon and I was running the various configurations by him and gauging his responses. OLL's are old news, the MMG seemed to have more of a "blessing" so to speak, Bullet Button (as legal as we ALL KNOW IT IS!!!) has some LEO a little more "spooked". Kinda of a "let the DA figure that one out"...........just food for thought from one dude on a internet forum. Overall, OLL and civilian possession are well known.

Addax
11-06-2007, 5:43 PM
Thanks Bill.

I am sure glad we have you on our side! You Rock Dude!

onekickkawi
11-07-2007, 7:23 PM
on a side note how long is California's Assault weapon ban valid for/until?

Applehaus21st
11-07-2007, 7:49 PM
Also, at the price of .223 these days, I'm not giving it out to cops who can get their ammo for free.

Where's the LOVE?

8200rpm
11-07-2007, 8:07 PM
on a side note how long is California's Assault weapon ban valid for/until?

Until it's repealed in some way. There is no sunset provision like the 1994 Federal Crime Bill.

onekickkawi
11-07-2007, 9:30 PM
crap! that sucks. ahh i order my lower next week!