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PistolPete75
11-01-2007, 7:29 PM
Instead of using complicated formulas to determine lead in mils from leading edge of target, how universal is the Common Leads which is taught by the Army Sniper schools?

Under 200yards Aim center of mass
300 yards Crosshair at leading edge
400 yards A line of light in between crosshair and target leading edge
500 yards 1st mil dot on trailing edge or 6" on leading edge
600 yards 1st mil dot center of mass or 15" lead

I'm intending to use the Ambush method.

metalhead357
11-01-2007, 8:22 PM
I'm intending to use the Ambush method.


on WHAT???????:eek:

PistolPete75
11-01-2007, 8:33 PM
steel targets of course. going to a las vegas match which has moving targets.

i am not a sniper, however i like precision/ tactical style shooting.

wildcard
11-01-2007, 8:42 PM
on WHAT???????:eek:

Two legged varmint? :43:

metalhead357
11-01-2007, 8:42 PM
Ahhh Ok, had me thinking strange and nefarious things there for a bit;) Wish i could help more but I've always done the "kentucy windage" for years and cant begin to 'splain to people....thats about the extent of leading that I know of.

So count this as a tag for me to get educated too;)

PistolPete75
11-01-2007, 8:45 PM
Two legged varmint? :43:

you mean four legged varmint right?

rabbit, coyote, and things like that.

hunters should know this very well, huh? c'mon hunters give me some advice.

metalhead357
11-01-2007, 8:55 PM
\hunters should know this very well, huh? c'mon hunters give me some advice.


thats what I meant by kentuck windage. Its a cross between lead distance and the speed of the critter AND whether its running straight left or right away from you or running STRAIGHT away from you. Distance to target increases the lead significantly...

But can I quantify it? Nope. Just years of practice on Duck, Pheasent, Dove..and even a couple of deer, lots of coyotes, rabbits....etc.

But then again....I've used a scope for the 4 legged critters and a SG for the flyers; all just take/took some practice.

metalhead357
11-01-2007, 8:57 PM
A rabbit running left to right at about 15 paces I put the PISTOL on his snout. A coyote running the same but already out at 100 yards I'd put about a foot lead into him (in front of him) (say about the edge of the barrel).

About the only way I can explain it withou the use of diagrams and flowcharts!!!!

Timberwolf
11-01-2007, 9:08 PM
Pete

Shoot off your ruck so you have movement of the rifle. Ambush style is ok for a shot or two but if have multiple shots in a given time its best to lead and follow through and you'll need to be able to move your rifle smoothly to do so.

PistolPete75
11-01-2007, 9:59 PM
Pete

Shoot off your ruck so you have movement of the rifle. Ambush style is ok for a shot or two but if have multiple shots in a given time its best to lead and follow through and you'll need to be able to move your rifle smoothly to do so.

cool, tnx for the tip.

RossRinSD
11-01-2007, 10:22 PM
so, do these methods apply during a drive by if the truck is moving and the people errr.... coyote is standing still?

PistolPete75
11-01-2007, 10:31 PM
so, do these methods apply during a drive by if the truck is moving and the people errr.... coyote is standing still?

i've done a drive-by type shooting in a match. extremly difficult with a heavy bolt action, at night time, and a bouncy road.

same principles, but much harder if your the one moving on a bouncy road. unstable shooting flatform.

ar15barrels
11-01-2007, 11:24 PM
I'm intending to use the Ambush method.

Can I assume that "ambush method" is something akin to having a steady rifle and a specified "shoot" location where the target enters your "point of fire" as opposed to a moving gun with a sustained or swung-through lead?

wildcard
11-02-2007, 7:23 AM
so, do these methods apply during a drive by if the truck is moving and the people errr.... coyote is standing still?

They apply.. but in the opposite direction. Since you're the one moving, you shoot BEFORE you get to the target and just let it "drift in." Just remember that all objects on the vehicle are already moving at the speed of the vehicle. Sorta the same logic as why you wouldn't hit the back of the train if you jumped up while inside of it.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 7:24 AM
Can I assume that "ambush method" is something akin to having a steady rifle and a specified "shoot" location where the target enters your "point of fire" as opposed to a moving gun with a sustained or swung-through lead?

No.. he figures he's too manly for a gun. He's going pop out from behind a bush and stab the target with a knife instead.

ar15barrels
11-02-2007, 8:45 AM
He's going pop out from behind a bush and stab the target with a knife instead.

If he can get close enough to do that without letting the target know he's there, I say all the power to him. ;)

Maybe he is one of those guys that hunts pugs/pigs with a spear!

Timberwolf
11-02-2007, 8:53 AM
Can I assume that "ambush method" is something akin to having a steady rifle and a specified "shoot" location where the target enters your "point of fire" as opposed to a moving gun with a sustained or swung-through lead?

You are correct - it's generally used on singluar targets.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 8:54 AM
Ok.. seriously.. here's what I worked out for up to 1000 yds. This chart will give you the amount of lead you need in MILS.

0ooh.. i should convert it to MOA to dial it in.. that would be kinda nice. If you're interested, just multiply the values by 3.6 and round to the nearest factor of .25.

Along the top is the target speed in feet per second. Time is the amount of time the bullet (M118 175gr but it'll be close enough for 168 match loads or whatever) will require to reach a target. If you use Excel, here's the formula I used.. you can plug it in and change/ add the speeds at the top or distances along the side.

Formula used at C2 though it'll work in any of the cells:
=(($B2*C$1*12)-6)/($A2*0.036)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/wildcardjc/MovingTargets.jpg

rksimple
11-02-2007, 9:26 AM
We don't know the speed of the mover. Looks like typical walking pace, however. The formulas, as I found out, are an estimation at best. It takes shooting them and developing a sense for where to hold.

Another fly in the ointment...say you're at 600 yards, shooting a mover and the wind is blowing 9 to 3 o'clock. Do you adjust for wind? How much? Do you hold off differently each time as the target moves back and forth? I've had great results by adjusting for the average wind, and holding the same lead for all shots (both right and left moving). Some hold off for everything. It just takes shooting 'em a bit.

Some people really prefer the ambush method and can kick a** using it. For multiple moving targets, the tracking method is easiest for me. Again, each person has to try the different methods and see what works best for them. I've had pretty good results using both.

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 9:27 AM
Ok.. seriously.. here's what I worked out for up to 1000 yds. This chart will give you the amount of lead you need in MILS.

0ooh.. i should convert it to MOA to dial it in.. that would be kinda nice. If you're interested, just multiply the values by 3.6 and round to the nearest factor of .25.

Along the top is the target speed in feet per second. Time is the amount of time the bullet (M118 175gr but it'll be close enough for 168 match loads or whatever) will require to reach a target. If you use Excel, here's the formula I used.. you can plug it in and change/ add the speeds at the top or distances along the side.

Formula used at C2 though it'll work in any of the cells:
=(($B2*C$1*12)-6)/($A2*0.036)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/wildcardjc/MovingTargets.jpg


good stuff! nice job.

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 9:31 AM
No.. he figures he's too manly for a gun. He's going pop out from behind a bush and stab the target with a knife instead.

ambush method, is when you hide somewhere in total concealment, and wait for them to pop out. (this is when you use gillies) then you smack them across the face, and say i gotcha!

j/k! this was a good lauph suggesting this though.

rksimple
11-02-2007, 9:32 AM
Jason- don't dial in for movers. They move both ways. Each time it switched directions, you'd be off.

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 9:34 AM
Jason- don't dial in for movers. They move both ways. Each time it switched directions, you'd be off.

mayby the best simpliest method is the way i described it on my first post. are there multiple targets in one stage or just one?

Timberwolf
11-02-2007, 9:35 AM
Normally one target moving L-R then R-L - multiple shots in a given time. That's the normal COF anyway

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 9:35 AM
ohh got my gunslinger in today!

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 9:37 AM
hey rk? you got one of your home made mats on you?

rksimple
11-02-2007, 9:38 AM
mayby the best simpliest method is the way i described it on my first post. are there multiple targets in one stage or just one?

Just one mover. But it switches directions. The last stage is usually that barrel burner one. From the shooting position, the mover was 400 yards away. There were multiple other targets from 100-400 yards. He would call out, in random order, the targets to be engaged. So you had to hold off for just about everything. Its pretty cool.

rksimple
11-02-2007, 9:38 AM
hey rk? you got one of your home made mats on you?

I might have enough fabric to whip one up. I'll check.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 9:45 AM
Jason- don't dial in for movers. They move both ways. Each time it switched directions, you'd be off.

Yeah.. figured.. it was just a consideration in case you were sure you would hit it while going in a known direction and not multiple targets.

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 9:49 AM
do we have time to rezero before the match? also how does the elevation there effect our zero, and come-ups? are you giving it like an extra 1/4 moa to adjust for less elevation?

looks like we would be shooting more like 110yards, 220yards, 330yards, and 440yards targets right?

rksimple
11-02-2007, 9:56 AM
Yeah.. figured.. it was just a consideration in case you were sure you would hit it while going in a known direction and not multiple targets.

I guess it could work, but then you'd have to add or subtract wind values as well. Too much to think about for me. The mover up there will move about 20 yards or so total and switch directions at the extremes of its range of movement.

Pete-I've been .5 MOA high at the Vegas matches from my zero here in Tehachapi. I've usually been .5 MOA high at Saugus as well. I think most of it can be attributed to the temp, however. Its normally much cooler up here.

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 10:07 AM
I guess it could work, but then you'd have to add or subtract wind values as well. Too much to think about for me. The mover up there will move about 20 yards or so total and switch directions at the extremes of its range of movement.

Pete-I've been .5 MOA high at the Vegas matches from my zero here in Tehachapi. I've usually been .5 MOA high at Saugus as well. I think most of it can be attributed to the temp, however. Its normally much cooler up here.


should be similar shooting to down here. i hear the temperature is just like the valley right now.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 10:09 AM
See you guys at Peter's place tonight at about 7PM? Can't wait for some Bellagio buffet!

Got an address for us Peter? I want to print before I leave work :)

rksimple
11-02-2007, 10:13 AM
Did we decide on Bellagio? I'm game. Never been to that one.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 10:17 AM
Not sure if we decided.. but any are good :) You'll enjoy it especially since you haven't been there yet.. but we'll see what everyone is up for!

4 Brigada
11-02-2007, 10:19 AM
There are several ballistic programs, I have a Perry ballistics I use on my pocket PC and a the sharpshooter on my palm pilot, based on the speed and distance and the ballistics it gives you the lead for moving targets

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 10:30 AM
we gotta do a buffet.

rksimple
11-02-2007, 10:34 AM
we gotta do a buffet.

No doubt. I'm not eating until tonight.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 10:36 AM
we gotta do a buffet.

Heck yeah. It'll give us more cushion in our bellies to keep use more stable in prone position by mitigating the effects of our heartbeat. Seems to work for Timberwolf :)

rksimple
11-02-2007, 10:40 AM
Heck yeah. It'll give us more cushion in our bellies to keep use more stable in prone position by mitigating the effects of our heartbeat. Seems to work for Timberwolf :)

LOL!!! He's gonna pick on you even more now! He'll take it out on us at the next APS match.

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 10:43 AM
LOL!!! He's gonna pick on you even more now! He'll take it out on us at the next APS match.

LOL... timber you gotta show them what's up?! hehe

wildcard
11-02-2007, 10:49 AM
And he's gonna get the both of you just for laughing! Guess who's going to be shooting 1st, 2nd, and 3rd..

Timberwolf
11-02-2007, 10:55 AM
I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler wolf . . . but . . . hmmmmm . . . I thinks its time we run my favorite stage in the next match . . . 5 random shots in 1/2 hour from prone . . . at least you won't be sweating too hard in January . . . just remember while you young'ns are bragging about your six pack abs, I carry a keg. :p

Timberwolf
11-02-2007, 10:56 AM
Oh wait a minute, you three are helping in my class in January aren't you . . . hehehehehehe

rksimple
11-02-2007, 11:00 AM
Oh wait a minute, you three are helping in my class in January aren't you . . . hehehehehehe

I call "not it" on holding the targets...

wildcard
11-02-2007, 11:05 AM
I call "not it" on holding the targets...

Don't trust my long range shot? I promise i'll hit it!

What time you heading out today? I think I may be coming back right after the match and lunch.. gotta go to a Halloween party with the woman..

Timberwolf
11-02-2007, 11:09 AM
Don't trust my long range shot? I promise i'll hit it!

What time you heading out today? I think I may be coming back right after the match and lunch.. gotta go to a Halloween party with the woman..

Do these women realize you look like that all the time and its not a mask? :eek::)

Prc329
11-02-2007, 11:12 AM
I don't think there has been a single post in the forum that stayed on topic :)

BTW I can't be mad that I can't go now. No scope on my rifle till monday :(

wildcard
11-02-2007, 11:14 AM
Do these women realize you look like that all the time and its not a mask? :eek::)

They sure do.. 24/7 Prince Charming.. not to mention my godlike physique where i'm referred to as Zeus :cool2:

wildcard
11-02-2007, 11:14 AM
I don't think there has been a single post in the forum that stayed on topic :)

BTW I can't be mad that I can't go now. No scope on my rifle till monday :(

Pssh.. slap it on and go..

rksimple
11-02-2007, 11:17 AM
What time you heading out today? I think I may be coming back right after the match and lunch.. gotta go to a Halloween party with the woman..

I'm meeting Pete in Mojave. I'm coming back after the match as well. Tehachapi is probably to far out of your way for us to carpool. You think? Let me know.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 11:18 AM
I'm meeting Pete in Mojave. I'm coming back after the match as well. Tehachapi is probably to far out of your way for us to carpool. You think? Let me know.

Yeah.. i'd have to traverse west. Plus the woman is coming with me.. figured I better since Peter is bringing his..

rksimple
11-02-2007, 11:21 AM
Yeah.. i'd have to traverse west. Plus the woman is coming with me.. figured I better since Peter is bringing his..

Dang...I'll be the odd man out. No wife and kid for me this weekend. But hey, I hear in Vegas they have "women" you can actually "pay" and they keep you "company." That way, I wouldn't be the only one with out a date...

wildcard
11-02-2007, 11:27 AM
Dang...I'll be the odd man out. No wife and kid for me this weekend. But hey, I hear in Vegas they have "women" you can actually "pay" and they keep you "company." That way, I wouldn't be the only one with out a date...

Alright.. you want to head over to the Mustang Ranch before or after the buffet? :D

rksimple
11-02-2007, 11:28 AM
Alright.. you want to head over to the Mustang Ranch before or after the buffet? :D

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Escorts, thats what they're called...escorts, thats it.:D:D

Timberwolf
11-02-2007, 12:00 PM
Just remember what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 12:00 PM
Just remember what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas

and the man rule.

ar15barrels
11-02-2007, 12:04 PM
Pssh.. slap it on and go..

His old scope is in MY gun room now. ;)

ar15barrels
11-02-2007, 12:05 PM
Don't trust my long range shot? I promise i'll hit it!

http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/images/quitcomplainingaboutyourjob11_3.JPG

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 12:07 PM
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/images/quitcomplainingaboutyourjob11_3.JPG

freaken nutz. i would never hold that target, even if Hathcock was shooting it.

ar15barrels
11-02-2007, 12:11 PM
freaken nutz. i would never hold that target, even if Hathcock was shooting it.

Think about that guy's options. ;)
What do you think they do if he REFUSES to hold it?

wildcard
11-02-2007, 12:11 PM
and the man rule.

What's that?

PistolPete75
11-02-2007, 12:15 PM
What's that?

you've been pmed.

this is a public forum.

wildcard
11-02-2007, 12:42 PM
Ahh. Got it. I like it :) Leaving work soon.. I'll see you guys in about 6 hours.. we all gots each other's #s so call if anything comes up.