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sig22018
10-30-2007, 9:52 PM
I just posted a thread in the Outdoors, Camping, and Survival forum. I'm thinking of including an S&W 60 in my pack (to go on my person should the need arise) as opposed to a 1911 or sig220. You can't beat a 45 for an urban environment but the s&w is so much more concealable...Read the thread please.
This should be fun reviewing your responses.

bobfried
10-30-2007, 10:38 PM
For me it'd be my little .22 for any BO situation that requires me to move light and fast. It would have to be semi, magazine fed and with a capacity of at least 10 rounds per mag. I've done enough MOUT to figure out for myself what I need.

Your in confined space so caliber really doesn't mean much, the longest shot your going to make is across the street or maybe a few houses down. This confined space also gives your opponents lots of cover and will require you to expend more ammo. The ability to quickly change mag is vital, not because your trying to suppress someone, but rather so you can peel out of an engagement.

Try this simple scenario to determine what you personally need/want:

- Imagine your in an urban environment (your neighborhood)
- Estimate the ranges and cover available during a firefight
- Do a mock walk down the street and imagine you get approach by some thugs or ambushed
- Think of how fast you need to react and how many rounds you would need to do so
- Now attempt to retreat from the situation while continue to fire (in your mind of course)

Can you puts rounds on target, beat a hasty retreat and reload fast enough and with enough round to make it out?

socalguns
10-30-2007, 11:09 PM
It is customary to include links to anything you want examined

Stockton
10-30-2007, 11:11 PM
Hey bobfried - where have you done your MOUT training? I've done quit a bit myself as well as the real deal on more than one occasion overseas. Maybe we've done the some of the same places.

Nothing less than a 9mm in any situation good or bad in my civilian role. To conceal or not to is dictated by the actual moment or forseen likelyhood of events to encounter in any scenario. METT-T is what we call "on the fly" decision making. IDPA or a place like frontsite can put you through those types of scenarios. If you're military or a leo then you would've had some type of that already. Caliber is more of a scientific/personal/opinion based on what you believe is right for you in any given moment. A leo or soldier has specifics he has to use.

Mac

ghettoshecky
10-31-2007, 12:17 AM
Well if it's urban disaster I think a full auto AK would do the trick, seems to show who's boss in Iraq :p or a Glock 18 since this is a handgun thread.

bobfried
10-31-2007, 12:17 AM
Stockton: I had the joy of doing MOUT at Ft. Lost in the Woods, land nav in the mud with a bout of MOUT at Ft. Gordon, Some door kicking on the North Fort at Ft. Lewis, night land nav with a little camp mock up at Ft. Hunter Liggett, some house clearing fun at Weisbaden and a bit of door kicking at the mud hole called Grafenwoehr.

Never had to do the real deal with a sidearm and I thank God for that, my little adventures in the sandboxes were brief ins and outs with only a few excursions and some rounds fired. I am by no mean a ground pounder, just a liason guy. I ETS'ed completely back in June and as much as I hate to admit will probably join the NG in the near future and get my butter bar. I had though about staying in as an enlisted and try to go for my E-7 but enough was enough, I am out for good or back in as an officer.

Wyatt
10-31-2007, 12:20 AM
Having been thru a Katrina type of situation I'd have to say it would depend on the situation and or location.
.45, 12ga, 7.62 If i could only take one? 12ga.

Bobula
10-31-2007, 12:22 AM
My mini

metalhead357
10-31-2007, 12:51 AM
Best gun?

The one that works and you have ready access to...........


Pistol for a urban disaster?????? Might wanna read the rules to a gunfight;)

Gryff
11-03-2007, 12:39 AM
Glock 23 or a Springfield XD-40. Reliable, accurate, good caliber, reasonably concealable, decent mag capacity. Additionally, they are EASY to shoot in case my wife or one of the kids has to pick it up and use it.

-Jim

MedSpec65
11-03-2007, 1:12 AM
I have a Smith Model 60 with the 3-inch barrel, Hi-Viz front sight, a well-fitted IWB and a half-dozen speedloaders for just the intended purpose you mentioned. The .38SPL+p commercial ammo is probably the best way to go with this J-Frame. I stoke it with Speer 125 gr GDHP's but keep some Federal 130 gr .357Mag HydraShoks around for serious penetration.
Gotta be prepared for a civil insurrection by armed Sumo Wrestlers 'ya know. Seriously, I'll go to my Kimber Custom II with CorBon 230 gr .45+p JHP's as a sidearm in civil stuff. The Smith is a BUG. It's the AR, hunting and sniper rifles I'll be getting serious about if TSHTF.

proraptor
11-03-2007, 7:20 AM
glock 21 and a mossberg 590a1

Rob454
11-03-2007, 7:58 AM
9mm would be the smallest caliber I would think of carrying. Personally I feel a .22 would not be a good choice. If it was me a .45 would be what i would have. if were talking strictly pistols I would take a semi auto. As much as I like revolvers cant load them as quickly but it would be good to have one as a back up in case the aemi auto gets jammed.

also dont forget psychologically winning the fight. shoot at someone with a 22 or a 9mm they are gonna say ok its a 22 or a 9 mm. now shoot at them with a 45 or a 44 and they are gonna say holy **** what the hell is that or You bastard you killed Kenny. It would be like shooting one of their buddies in the crotch. hes not gonna die quickly but he is gonna scream for a while. you dont think thats demoralizing?

mike100
11-03-2007, 8:05 AM
My P7m8 got thrown in with my evacuation kit this last month because I know it conceals well. I would guess that only a huge earthquake type of situation or a riot(second coming of poncho villa) would cause a no LE presence for days, but the latest firestorm thing was really a max concealment type of situation. There were just as many heavily armed cops as there were looters from what I hear.

I know I'm ok with a 12 gauge pump, so there is always that. I got a couple of 7.62 chuckers also.

Bizcuits
11-03-2007, 12:04 PM
I'll be wearing my IBA with plates and have my 5inch XD .45 with Corbon JHPs.


If your talking rifles, I got my mini14

magsnubby
11-03-2007, 12:13 PM
I was raised on S&W wheel guns and 1911's. I absolutely love wheel guns. I really like 1911's. But for your scenario wouldn't choose either one. I would choose a hi capacity full size 9mm, .40 or .45 acp. With lots of extra magazines. Lots of loaded extra magazines. And most likely a subcompact in the same caliber.

This is to supplement your battle rifle, i assume? Something light like an AK, AR15, SKS or even an Mini 14 or Mini 30.

8200rpm
11-03-2007, 1:42 PM
Pfft...

Just call 911. Leave the gunfighting to trained men.

If you're accosted by someone, just comply and give them what they want.

Police chiefs all over urban America has urged this from you. Listen to them.

dwtt
11-03-2007, 3:27 PM
Pfft...

Just call 911. Leave the gunfighting to trained men.

If you're accosted by someone, just comply and give them what they want.

Police chiefs all over urban America has urged this from you. Listen to them.

I'll do that if I ever get into a Katrina type of situation. I'm just waiting for the next big earthquake and accompanying tsunami to hit the coast. Or when the zombies decide to come after us.

metalhead357
11-03-2007, 4:04 PM
Pfft...

Just call 911. Leave the gunfighting to trained men.

If you're accosted by someone, just comply and give them what they want.

Police chiefs all over urban America has urged this from you. Listen to them.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f115/metalhead357/captions03211.jpg

BillCA
11-03-2007, 4:11 PM
Let's see... gun for "bug out bag" ...

- Likely to be neglected for months
- Possible exposure to moisture/rust
- May possibly be stolen, depending on bag location.
- May be confiscated by authorities in a disaster.

I'd suggest that a Hi-Point 9mm might work here. Inexpensive & ugly, but they work. Additionally, if you manage to acquire one or more of your better guns, it may be possible to conceal those whilst turning over your Hi-Point to authorites. In any case, the loss of the gun is not a serious financial setback.

FatKatMatt
11-03-2007, 4:28 PM
I'd say the best urban disaster sub-100 yard rifle would be a Ruger 10/22 with a 30 round magazine, pistol grip and folding stock. A flash hider would be nice too. You can carry hundreds of rounds since .22LR is so light, and this leaves more room for other supplies if you want to bug out.

You could also take an AK-47 of some type, preferably regular with standard capacity magazines. Carry at least 100 rounds, but it's always best to carry as much ammunition as possible. I don't think an AR-15 would be the best for urban SHTF; questionable ammo performance and questionable weapon reliability shouldn't be issues for your SHTF gun. High accuracy doesn't matter when all you'll have to aim for is a 12" diameter torso at the distance of 100 yards (maybe more, but I doubt it).

Another idea is taking a pistol caliber carbine and a pistol to go with it, like say a Marlin Camp 9 and a Glock 17.

Pistol should be a double action revolver or a good, reliable automatic. Caliber should be substantial; you're likely going to use the pistol only when your rifle runs out of ammo or the perp gets too close, so you better make any rounds you've got count.

Mall ninja out.

Bassxhead
11-03-2007, 5:12 PM
You guys think .40 is a good "disaster" caliber? Ive been thinking of getting a 9mm or .45 because those seem to be the most popular, incase ammo was hard to find.

metalhead357
11-03-2007, 6:31 PM
You guys think .40 is a good "disaster" caliber? Ive been thinking of getting a 9mm or .45 because those seem to be the most popular, incase ammo was hard to find.


just One man's opinion....but I share your thinking.....

1911_sfca
11-03-2007, 7:16 PM
Whatever is easy to carry and you have the most ammo for.

As much as I like 45 (my handle contains 1911, after all), I would think 9mm, and then 40cal, in that order, would be better. It's hard to carry a lot of 45 because of bulk, weight, and magazine capacity.

OpticsPlus
11-03-2007, 8:08 PM
For my bug out bag I have a .22 pistol and a 9mm. Ammo is abundant for both and can carry a lot more than other calibers. The .22 doesn't have the stopping power but it sure is deadly and can protect my immediate vicinity and can conceal easily. If I needed more I would get the 9mm. I also have 2 hip holsters in my BOB, 1 for each pistol, so they can both be readily available if needed. I would also grab my AR15 and AR22 before leaving. I can carry one and my wife can carry the other. Both can be used for hunting and also for defending.

moulton
11-03-2007, 8:28 PM
Well if it's urban disaster I think a full auto AK would do the trick, seems to show who's boss in Iraq :p or a Glock 18 since this is a handgun thread.

Full-auto Ak's are nice.... I got to shoot one at knob creek at propane tanks, vans and even a boat...... but the magazine gets empty fast, It took me 3 short bursts to empty the 30 round mag:29::iggy::13:

BaronW
11-03-2007, 9:49 PM
For the ranges I'd have to deal with, my Remington 870 will suffice. 18" cylinder bore with buckshot and slugs.

metalhead357
11-03-2007, 10:46 PM
For the ranges I'd have to deal with, my Remington 870 will suffice. 18" cylinder bore with buckshot and slugs.


I'd agree IF...IFFFFFFFF 100 yards were the furthest one might have to shoot. But "urban" consists of a LOT MORE than inside of 100 yard shots; and hence why I've been talking here about rifles (and PM's). Granted ANYTHING is probably better than nothing (in most cases) but planning for urban survival has to take into account things that you might not have taken into account....like distance. Even a perp with a .22 rifle has you OUTGUNNED at distance with that SG and slugs. The ABSOLUTE furthest I've managed to hit anything with a Slug and open sites was 155 yards and I'd still think it was luck; while with a .22 (allowing for drop) you are still lethal out to 300.............

Rifle is the all around MUST HAVE.
Shotgun if you must.....
Pistol as last best chance..........

Just sommin' to think about.;)

metalhead357
11-03-2007, 10:51 PM
For my bug out bag I have a .22 pistol and a 9mm. Ammo is abundant for both and can carry a lot more than other calibers. The .22 doesn't have the stopping power but it sure is deadly and can protect my immediate vicinity and can conceal easily. If I needed more I would get the 9mm. I also have 2 hip holsters in my BOB, 1 for each pistol, so they can both be readily available if needed. I would also grab my AR15 and AR22 before leaving. I can carry one and my wife can carry the other. Both can be used for hunting and also for defending.


Just my 0.02 on this one.
Better than nothing. But if you can upgrade the .22 to a takedown rifle.... and/or upgrade that 9mm to a carbine. But both of these calibers are usually considered pretty substandard as a true survival round IN PISTOLS...not in rifles;)

Hate to keep saying this folks...but pistols are usually classed as last resort weapons....not "GO TO" weapons.....certainly not in any scenario for LONG term survival. Pistols are "Liberators" in that (God forbid it ever came to this) you had to liberate a larger/bigger/BETTER weapon from someone............

j2ws2000
11-03-2007, 11:36 PM
I'd say the best urban disaster sub-100 yard rifle would be a Ruger 10/22 with a 30 round magazine, pistol grip and folding stock. A flash hider would be nice too. You can carry hundreds of rounds since .22LR is so light, and this leaves more room for other supplies if you want to bug out.

You could also take an AK-47 of some type, preferably regular with standard capacity magazines. Carry at least 100 rounds, but it's always best to carry as much ammunition as possible. I don't think an AR-15 would be the best for urban SHTF; questionable ammo performance and questionable weapon reliability shouldn't be issues for your SHTF gun. High accuracy doesn't matter when all you'll have to aim for is a 12" diameter torso at the distance of 100 yards (maybe more, but I doubt it).

Another idea is taking a pistol caliber carbine and a pistol to go with it, like say a Marlin Camp 9 and a Glock 17.

Pistol should be a double action revolver or a good, reliable automatic. Caliber should be substantial; you're likely going to use the pistol only when your rifle runs out of ammo or the perp gets too close, so you better make any rounds you've got count.

Mall ninja out.

I'm gonna have to heartily disagree. On the one hand you say the 10/22 is ideal, but then go ahead and say the AR15 isn't because the 5.56x45mm is weak. Considering it has served the mightiest military power for 60 years, among many other nations in every type of condition, I really don't think the AR15 system or its round is anything to scoff at. After all, if the 5.56 had chronic problems with man-stopping, and if the AR15 was unreliable, they would have gone the way of the dinosaur many years ago.

The 5.56 has a tendency to yaw and violently fragment, and this is where the round really gets its respect; in fact the Soviets "downgraded" from the 7.62.39mm to a lighter, smaller, faster bullet mimicking our beloved 5.56mm. This round also has a tendency to not go through walls for a mile or "overkill" the backdrop of an urban setting. In other words, the 5.56mm also affords far less collateral damage, whilst still being envied in lethality, low recoil, and accuracy.

As for the AR15 system, again it has stood the test of time and has been used in every setting successfully, only rumored to have failed in its earliest stages over half a century ago. To hold a grudge against the AR15 system to this day would be like refusing to shoot rifles because of all the shortcomings of black powder; it's time to get over it and move on. The rare DI system not only enhances accuracy, it also has a tendency to blow dirt, debris and such out of the finely tuned AR15 action. Does the bolt dirty from the heat and gases? Yes it certainly does, but at the same time I have yet to see an AR15 jam due to this. Extreme neglect perhaps, but from casual or even combat shooting? Hardly.

Now some want guns that can stand up to extreme neglect, but in what they gain in laziness, they lose in accuracy, ergonomics, practicality and seriousness. After all, if your firearm is so neglected that the bolt is rusted shut, then perhaps you don't need it, or aren't responsible enough to have it. Pound for pound the AR15 has far more options, as for the same weight as an AK or other system the AR15 can have advanced optics, bipods, lights, lasers, or other necessary equipment. People talk about other systems like the AK47 as though it is not made of metal and isn't a machine, and that it will not eventually give out. In that sense the AR15 has yet another advantage in utilizing advanced polymers and aluminum, two things which do not wear so readily over time. You may be able to pee on your AK47 to thaw it, but my AR15's bolt is already warm from the DI system, and you may be able to kick your rusted bolt open, but my AR15 doesn't rust.

The AR15 is reliable, streamlined, accurate, simple, light, powerful, and the most pointable rifle I know of, allowing for fast and accurate follow up shots. This is not to get down on the AK47 or AK lovers, I happen to be one, but to posture it as some marvelous achievement above the AR15 system is to not understand the AR15 system; it is to give in to rumors and firearm lore.

It is all shop talk.

metalhead357
11-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Ohhhhhhhhhhh lordy j2~

We've had these AR vs. _________ for forever around here. Trust me when I say you'll never convert a lover to a hater nor a hater to a lover. To me the AR is simply the AR, nothin like 'em...they are what they are. They ARe accurat-- but there's ones that are better.
There are ones that are heavier, I'll give you that. Some stronger, some fancier....etc. But the original SUCKED, the A-2 was better with lessssssss suckage, the A-3's are fair...and what? A-4? M-4? Please- the grunts over in the sandbox are SCREAMING for 30 cal weapons...... but I digress.

But what it comes down to..is knowing your gun...and practice practice practice. Stack a 90 year granny with 50 years shooting experience and a .22 pistol against some clod with his fancy new AR that aint been shot more than 3 trips to the range...and I think Granny still has him beat.

AR's are good guns....for what they are. But many a thread exist here to tell ya' just what THAY ARE, and what they are NOT;)

Tell ya'....I'd rather an AR than a pistol. But gimmie half a chance and I'd rather take my Garand, My M1A....heck even my moisin; but hey...I'm a 30 caliber dude from time immortal...so dont take anything I've said personal.

Maddog5150
11-03-2007, 11:55 PM
... ummmm... okaaaaaay.

Well I would prefur to have my glock 34 on me at all times and also my uber AR-15 M4 with the fake supressor and a krinker plinker for back up maybe under my tactical trenchcoat. I will also be well guarded with my level 3A body armor and sapi plates duct taped to my back and chest and also my ree ree helmut on my noggin to keep it from bumping into things. as a backup I will have my glock 26 at 2 o'clock and a j framed smith at six because you just never know what side you will fall on. This of course will all be supplimented with my bug out vehicle, a suzuki samurai, with push bars and flat black paint job. I went ahead and installed chicken wire all the way around because you never know when those pesky gang bangers will pop up with an RPG. The sammy will also have my remington 700 tactical sniper system with my new uber experimental sniper scope on it. Some of you civvies probably never heard of it. Its from www.imasniperwhore.com and is the "oh my god i cant believe this guy actually ordered this" model. I got it at a steal for 32.99. The sammy also has an LE style shotgun mount for my NEF pardner pump because when it hits the fan, LE wont probably care if I have a "shotty" mounted in the front. Hell, they will probably be begging me for backup. I will be swift also since I have my scanner and CB and will be able to get in touch with correct minded individuals like myself who will be able to take back control of the city from the gang bangers and hoodlums that will surely take the opportunity of societal break down. Did I mention that my sammy has smoke and flare launchers? I think not. Not to mention my super tactical auto-zone offroad lights that cost me 12.99. no one will see me comming from miles. And to think after all this you guys still dont even know about my ankle rig with my perfected and patented, "kick the other dude in the solar plexus as you draw." technique and the smith and wesson tactical knives hidden on my person. Oh yeah... you all wish you were ready like me.... :ninja:

j2ws2000
11-04-2007, 12:03 AM
Ohhhhhhhhhhh lordy j2~

We've had these AR vs. _________ for forever around here. Trust me when I say you'll never convert a lover to a hater nor a hater to a lover. To me the AR is simply the AR, nothin like 'em...they are what they are. They ARe accurat-- but there's ones that are better.
There are ones that are heavier, I'll give you that. Some stronger, some fancier....etc. But the original SUCKED, the A-2 was better with lessssssss suckage, the A-3's are fair...and what? A-4? M-4? Please- the grunts over in the sandbox are SCREAMING for 30 cal weapons...... but I digress.

But what it comes down to..is knowing your gun...and practice practice practice. Stack a 90 year granny with 50 years shooting experience and a .22 pistol against some clod with his fancy new AR that aint been shot more than 3 trips to the range...and I think Granny still has him beat.

AR's are good guns....for what they are. But many a thread exist here to tell ya' just what THAY ARE, and what they are NOT;)

Tell ya'....I'd rather an AR than a pistol. But gimmie half a chance and I'd rather take my Garand, My M1A....heck even my moisin; but hey...I'm a 30 caliber dude from time immortal...so dont take anything I've said personal.

I'll have to disagree for the most part, and that's okay. I posted what I posted not to convert anybody, but to just say it like it is. I really don't hear any soldiers screaming for .30 cals, but I have heard a lot of shooters screaming that soldiers are screaming for .30 cals. The truth is, like I said, it is all shop talk; in reality the AR15 system says more for itself than I can.

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 12:15 AM
I'll have to disagree for the most part, and that's okay. I posted what I posted not to convert anybody, but to just say it like it is. I really don't hear any soldiers screaming for .30 cals, but I have heard a lot of shooters screaming that soldiers are screaming for .30 cals. The truth is, like I said, it is all shop talk; in reality the AR15 system says more for itself than I can.


Glad no offense was taken. Toooooo many take the AR as the life's blood of thier own being it seems. I agree, the gun does speak for itself, and does a pretty fair job in and of itself.

It IS on *my* list of **grabbables**...albeit just further down the list than what/where it sounds like on yours;)

As for the shop talk....its not just shop talk. The Crazy horse project was re-instated, the M-14 dungeons have been opened, and there have been several recent articles/links posted here and on amback describing the weapons procurement process was certainly skewered. 95% of the world carries something else, the 5% carrying the AR are sold to them as thier only choice in many a country that we've also interestingly/coincidently loaned money to.

Ol' Stoner was even a fan of the caliber being different than what it currently is. So as long as no one sees/thinks of it as the holy grail of weapons then I usually keep my mouth shut. In this case I speak up 'cause its related to survivalism....something i've been following, reading, doing, preparing....living for 27+ years of my life. So while I'm fallible...... I'm certainly in place to say the AR is not the *favored* weapon of all out there in survial-land. Passable, doable, ok, good, adequate, accurate...all come to mind when speaking of AR's....just rugged, reliable, and trustworthy never quite seem to come to the minds of people who had them for years...............

SFFRONTMAN
11-04-2007, 12:19 AM
In a shtf kind of situation, id be workin in a pair with the pops. Each have a fullsize and sub glock 9mm, hed get the garand and id probably take the ar or the 870 depending on the situaion, .22 go in the bag, cause who hunts for game in san francisco? My biggest concern would be protecting my family and the property, period.

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 12:24 AM
In a shtf kind of situation, id be workin in a pair with the pops. Each have a fullsize and sub glock 9mm, hed get the garand and id probably take the ar or the 870 depending on the situaion, .22 go in the bag, cause who hunts for game in san francisco? My biggest concern would be protecting my family and the property, period.


THANK YOU! And yet another mention of something I've been hoping some would bring up. Teams, pairs, cohorts....spouses. How many have THEM prepaired? It aint just about guns............. but since we ARE focused on guns here:D then you bring upa cool situation. How to survive when there simply aint any food around? If you aint stockpiling food....maybe just me, but living in SF, at the first hint of SHTF I'd be gone gone gone. if not down the peninsula, then at least over the GG to Marin Headlands...LOTS of places to hide;)

Just remeber, you might wanna switch guns at the range with you two from time to time, a little practice with a partners gun IS a good thing!

Bizcuits
11-04-2007, 1:31 AM
Ohhhhhhhhhhh lordy j2~

We've had these AR vs. _________ for forever around here. Trust me when I say you'll never convert a lover to a hater nor a hater to a lover. To me the AR is simply the AR, nothin like 'em...they are what they are. They ARe accurat-- but there's ones that are better.

true what we don't have ar's in california, we have OLL which as soon as they are made into combat ready rifles will become ready to jail. Unless your going to roll with a MMG. If we were in a FREE state, I'd fully support the AR's, but we aren't, so we sadly live in a land where the Mini's and M1A's are king. :(

Bizcuits
11-04-2007, 1:39 AM
Whatever is easy to carry and you have the most ammo for.

As much as I like 45 (my handle contains 1911, after all), I would think 9mm, and then 40cal, in that order, would be better. It's hard to carry a lot of 45 because of bulk, weight, and magazine capacity.

I've often thought this myself, as .45 weighs almost twices as much as 9mm. I just feel more comfortable with the idea of a .45 in a CQB situation. but yet I carry 9mm at work, so go figure...

saki302
11-04-2007, 2:28 AM
The AR IS the ultimate urban combat weapon- the environment is clean, the rifle accurate, and the ammo light for a centerfire rifle cartridge. What's not to like?
I don't see an engagement over 100-150 yards as very likely in a SHTF scenario.

Assuming you don't have a regged AW, even an OLL can be converted in a real emergency- in a true emergency./disaster, who's going to be around to arrest you if you really needed a 30rd weapon? An officer would be more than happy to get the back-up from you if he/she were there!

-Dave

VegasND
11-04-2007, 4:19 AM
My $0.02

"Urban disaster survival gun" is the title of the discussion. That's what it will be if I ever have to draw my CCW. I carry every day hoping I'll not face an 'urban disaster.'

Beyond the immediate 'survive this event' disaster I carry hoping to avoid, I hope I have time to modify my BOB or time to pack based upon the specific disaster. My choice of rifle/shotgun/caliber/etc. may have to be modified.
There's been a lot of good thought put into this thread by you posters and it is worth reading.
I only hope I've got some time to make the items I pack fit the occasion.

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 10:58 AM
The AR IS the ultimate urban combat weapon- the environment is clean, the rifle accurate, and the ammo light for a centerfire rifle cartridge. What's not to like?
I don't see an engagement over 100-150 yards as very likely in a SHTF scenario.

As said...a lot like it, a lot do not...simple as that. As far as the ultimate? Ha! see my comment about the Uber comments:p It aint forgiving in a dirty environment, it aint into dirt, mud or sand....

All it takes is looking to the day-to-day of the average american soldier whether in the Sandbox, afghan, or any of the previous whatevers (Magadeshu~ Sp?) where are troops ARE IN AN URBAN environment. LOTS of times they are engaged from beyond 100 yards; heck most of the vids on youtube and whatnot all show a huge amount of clips where they're engaged from 400+. That'd preclude any pistol, any shotgun: I aint saying you aint gonna hit them with an AR (anyone in HP matches knows the line is still pretty dominated with them) but the damage done (or lack thereof) from a .223 is pretty tame compared to a 30 cal anything at the same distance. Plenty of stories abound of the 100 yard steel plates; .223 will still be traveling fast and passes right through...whicle the 30's will dent and gong d' gong mushroom/expand. The damage of a 30 cal vs. a .223 is not an understatement.

FatKatMatt
11-04-2007, 11:25 AM
I'm gonna have to heartily disagree. On the one hand you say the 10/22 is ideal, but then go ahead and say the AR15 isn't because the 5.56x45mm is weak. Considering it has served the mightiest military power for 60 years, among many other nations in every type of condition, I really don't think the AR15 system or its round is anything to scoff at. After all, if the 5.56 had chronic problems with man-stopping, and if the AR15 was unreliable, they would have gone the way of the dinosaur many years ago.

The 5.56 has a tendency to yaw and violently fragment, and this is where the round really gets its respect; in fact the Soviets "downgraded" from the 7.62.39mm to a lighter, smaller, faster bullet mimicking our beloved 5.56mm. This round also has a tendency to not go through walls for a mile or "overkill" the backdrop of an urban setting. In other words, the 5.56mm also affords far less collateral damage, whilst still being envied in lethality, low recoil, and accuracy.

As for the AR15 system, again it has stood the test of time and has been used in every setting successfully, only rumored to have failed in its earliest stages over half a century ago. To hold a grudge against the AR15 system to this day would be like refusing to shoot rifles because of all the shortcomings of black powder; it's time to get over it and move on. The rare DI system not only enhances accuracy, it also has a tendency to blow dirt, debris and such out of the finely tuned AR15 action. Does the bolt dirty from the heat and gases? Yes it certainly does, but at the same time I have yet to see an AR15 jam due to this. Extreme neglect perhaps, but from casual or even combat shooting? Hardly.

Now some want guns that can stand up to extreme neglect, but in what they gain in laziness, they lose in accuracy, ergonomics, practicality and seriousness. After all, if your firearm is so neglected that the bolt is rusted shut, then perhaps you don't need it, or aren't responsible enough to have it. Pound for pound the AR15 has far more options, as for the same weight as an AK or other system the AR15 can have advanced optics, bipods, lights, lasers, or other necessary equipment. People talk about other systems like the AK47 as though it is not made of metal and isn't a machine, and that it will not eventually give out. In that sense the AR15 has yet another advantage in utilizing advanced polymers and aluminum, two things which do not wear so readily over time. You may be able to pee on your AK47 to thaw it, but my AR15's bolt is already warm from the DI system, and you may be able to kick your rusted bolt open, but my AR15 doesn't rust.

The AR15 is reliable, streamlined, accurate, simple, light, powerful, and the most pointable rifle I know of, allowing for fast and accurate follow up shots. This is not to get down on the AK47 or AK lovers, I happen to be one, but to posture it as some marvelous achievement above the AR15 system is to not understand the AR15 system; it is to give in to rumors and firearm lore.

It is all shop talk.

I lost all respect for you when lasers and bipods were marked as "necessary" :p

I like the .22 rifle for SHTF since you can carry hundreds of rounds whilst leaving a lot of room for your bug out bag; the gun is light, the ammo is light, so you can carry a lot of food, water, and other survival supplies. A 40 round box of .22 weighs as much as a few cartridges of .45 ACP. I support the AK if you have to have something centerfire, as it can hit a human torso out to 200-300 yards, which is all you need for SHTF, and it is a very reliable weapon. You don't need some uber accurate rifle if it has a tendency to jam when you need it most. Even if your AR doesn't malfunction often, I'd rather have a heavy, unergonomic, inaccurate rifle if it won't screw up when I need it.

WOLFPACK117
11-04-2007, 11:28 AM
HK USP 45 and S&W 625 two for one caliber.

j2ws2000
11-04-2007, 11:29 AM
As said...a lot like it, a lot do not...simple as that. As far as the ultimate? Ha! see my comment about the Uber comments:p It aint forgiving in a dirty environment, it aint into dirt, mud or sand....

All it takes is looking to the day-to-day of the average american soldier whether in the Sandbox, afghan, or any of the previous whatevers (Magadeshu~ Sp?) where are troops ARE IN AN URBAN environment. LOTS of times they are engaged from beyond 100 yards; heck most of the vids on youtube and whatnot all show a huge amount of clips where they're engaged from 400+. That'd preclude any pistol, any shotgun: I aint saying you aint gonna hit them with an AR (anyone in HP matches knows the line is still pretty dominated with them) but the damage done (or lack thereof) from a .223 is pretty tame compared to a 30 cal anything at the same distance. Plenty of stories abound of the 100 yard steel plates; .223 will still be traveling fast and passes right through...whicle the 30's will dent and gong d' gong mushroom/expand. The damage of a 30 cal vs. a .223 is not an understatement.

Are you comparing the .308 and the .223 though? Because the .308 is a considerably bigger case all around, with its own faults like high recoil and lots of muzzle blast from a shorter barrel, weight and the like. In that way it's like comparing apples and oranges, rounds designed for two different applications.

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 11:38 AM
HK USP 45 and S&W 625 two for one caliber.


AH! and yet ANOTHER argument raises its head from amongst several other boards.

Do you keep things simple and keep every gun ONE caliber? If you have a group or partner- do you want/demand they all carry the same caliber(s) as it arguably saves for confusion as to how much ammo is left, saves confusion if you need to reload mags in a hurry, etc.

((OR))
Do you take several calibers with you (as presumed a Bug out) with the anticipation or hope you might stumble across or other wise liberate more ammo? More calibers with you increases the chance of finding/liberating more in those caliber(s).....but then again- the weight of another weapon (be it a secondary or tertiary) with you-- can you justify the added weight for only a possibility of running accross more ammo for it?

I told my buddy of years that if'n he brought his 25-06 and his 32 he'd be SOL big time, sure the 25-06 is a good gun....just that whatever ammo you bring is gonna be about the extent of it you ever are gonna see!!!!! The fact that he rarely keep more than 60 rounds for the gun aint playin in his favor. I told HIM that he'd better take his AR (True registered AW) rather than that.....but he balks at the idea-- as he simply HATES the .223 and the AR platform (bought it only cuzzzz the gov said he couldn't after 2000) though I tell him that of "his arsenal" that that AR is the best thing he's got....short of buying something else.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em... I can go on for hours with this stuff if anyone wants:p

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 12:14 PM
Are you comparing the .308 and the .223 though? Because the .308 is a considerably bigger case all around, with its own faults like high recoil and lots of muzzle blast from a shorter barrel, weight and the like. In that way it's like comparing apples and oranges, rounds designed for two different applications.


No doubts/arguments its a bigger case, bigger bullet and more weight. Gotta balk at the idea though that its "high recoil". And tit for tat, a M14's barrel and gas system tame you're proported fears of high recoil and muzzle blast.

I love the .308...much more than the .223 as a cartridge...but I aint bitting the waive off that its made for different applications. It served in Viet Nam to the present with at least as much distinction as the .223. I WILL certainly give you that a .223 arguable makes for a better CQB (Close Quaters Battle for those wanting to ask) on the whole........but then again--- the very thing about m-4's and short barrels IS THE VERY THING that makes them SUCK at range/distance; you sacrifice long barrels for CQB. The inverse too is true...get some chopped .308 version and suddenly its a better CQB gun but you've lost the medium to long range effectiveness of the weapon/round.

But hey....then we've come completely full circle if we're ONLY going to talking CQB...and in that a Shotgun and/or pistol still makes a better presentation for application-specific guns. So in effect we have indeed come full circle. WELCOME TO THE WILD WORLD OF THE "PERFECT ONE GUN NONSENSE"... its been alive and well in the hearts & minds of our goobermint for years and on every gun board that deals with modern weapons. The "ONE" gun simply does not exist for ALLLLLLLLLLL applications. So in THAT...you've got to be PRACTICAL...you have to be SENSIBLE....you have to be ultra realistic.

And in that realism-- what are your chances of "taking someone on" in a urban environment? Would you rather engage at distance ( I WOULD!!!!) than close quaters? There aint no "one" gun out there for it all-- so back to what works FOR YOU....For you and the expected environment you hope to be in--all the while balancing against the environment you hope NEVER to be in but still having *something* that just might let you live through the event.

Ask anyone thats had to fire FROM a moving vehicle. About the best dang RIFLE out there is still considered the M1 CARBINE as its truly light and manueverable.....but its essentially outgunned by most everything else. The guys in the field report horror stories of the concussions from M-4 ANDDDDDD 30 cal weapons being fired from inside vehicles. So you gotta ask yourself-- are you going to be firing FROM a vehicle? If not- then put this aside.

But how about firing AT a vehicle. Any .223 will do wonders with todays' plastic, fiberglass, and thin metal skinned cars. IS it up to the task of desiel motors like a 30 cal????? In MOST cases NO. And again back to the damage factor(s). I would personally rather think that I'd like to "Put down" whatever I hit with *only* one or two shots---rather than necessitating SEVERAL hits from a .223.....another bunch of realism that our boys encounter for the last 2 decades with the .223. But how many rounds do you want to HAVE to put on the target to put it out of commision? Bigger holes bleed more blood, bigger holes cause more damage. Bigger holes are NOT made from 20 cal weapons...........

Granted- Not everyone can/was meant to handle larger calibers...but if you CAN handle them...then why not? But again...be realistic in your approach to the question of which gun "Do IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Need?" Dont take my words...or anyone elses until you actually OWN, shoot, and practice with it in a variety of environments. My buddy's Desert eagle was absolute gem in the heat-- but we took it up to the snow and it was consitant FTF and FTE and failure after failure even after the gun warmed up......... You wont know unless you GO and practic with anything/everything you got: from firing at angles..uphill, downhill, OFF-hand, OPPOSITE hand...etc.

The *Gun* is but a tool....... but the wielder of that tool is the one to be feared IF he's a master at it. So you got a 50 BMG....what good does it do in the hands of a 10 year old that cant even lift he thing..let alone fire it?

WOLFPACK117
11-04-2007, 6:05 PM
If things get so bad, leave and hit the bush. Why stick around and wait for trouble to come.

Gryff
11-04-2007, 7:18 PM
You guys think .40 is a good "disaster" caliber? Ive been thinking of getting a 9mm or .45 because those seem to be the most popular, incase ammo was hard to find.

I think that the .40 is a great choice. #1 chambering for law enforcement officers in America, so you have a good chance of finding spare ammo in the abandoned police cars...

-Jim

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 8:42 PM
I think that the .40 is a great choice. #1 chambering for law enforcement officers in America,


:confused: Where'd you get THAT stat???????:confused: I aint saying you're lying-- but I aint seeing it within the counties I frequent...... 9mm and .45's still rule the day.

mblat
11-04-2007, 8:52 PM
Just a side note: just because a cartridge serve well ( and many will argue with that statement!) to mightiest military in the World for 50 years doesn't automatically make it suitable for individual in SHTF situation.
US infantry or marines can and do expect air and artillery support, support from heavy squad weapons, from tanks, armored vehicles.
You will be along or only with you closest family. In this particular case don't you want something that goes through walls, car doors and windows etc?

I personally don't believe that weight of a carthridge not a big consideration in "normal" urban SHTF situation. If you end up in situation where 100 rounds of .308 are not enough...... chances are you have bigger problem than 300 .223 can solve. On other hand I also don't see taking 600 yard shots, especially in the city.

That is IMHO, of cause. So when I choose SHTF rifle I choose short barreled (16 inch).308. That will make it more suitable for CQB, and still carries enough paunch up to 400 yards and can go though walls and doors.

And since it is a handgun forum - who really cares? As long as you don't have same calibers in long/short arms (there are people who have combinations of .357/.44 revolvers and level actions - make sense to me) any reliable handgun ( and there are many ) in caliber over .380 will do.

BillCA
11-04-2007, 9:31 PM
Some critical thinking...

Disasters - General
If you can see disaster coming, get out early.

In my view, most disasters are "short lived" in that within 3-4 days, help starts arriving. In those first days is when you might see 90% of the trouble. Unless absolutely forced out of your neighborhood or needing to move to a safer one, remaining in or near your home, where you know some of your neighbors, is better than "bugging out".

People who think they'll have to live "pioneer style" in the bush country within 100 miles of their city are dreaming. It's likely thousands of others have the same idea and game will be very scarce...unless you like rat and squirrel.

Caliber selection - general
Remember, the first rule is stock up before the disaster. I figure between 1,000 to 2,000 rounds of primary rifle ammo for vehicle travel. Much less if traveling by foot.

I don't think it's as important that you can get ammo at your local gunshop or Wal*Mart. After all, if the disaster is serious enough, they're closed and obtaining ammo will likely be considered "looting". :eek: It's more likely you may be getting ammo from those seeking to do you harm, one way or another.

Platform Wars: AR v. SKS/AK; HK v. Glock v. 1911
Caliber effectiveness should determine what caliber(s) you have. Should you use an AR-10 vs. an M1A? Your choice as they both use the .308 round. AR-15 vs. SKS/AK will depend on which rifle you shoot best with, have sufficient ammo and can carry for extended periods.

Likewise, arguments for handguns should be predicated on reliability and your ability to score hits, not whether it's a 1911, HK or Glock. Caliber should be likewise based on effective use, not necessarily weight alone. If you can't score hits with a .40 S&W, why have it along? Some folks are better shots with a revolver and a service-sized .38 or .357 will certainly work.

Handguns aren't as useless as some have alluded to. I'd rather have a 5-shot .38/.357 on my person than a 17-shot Glock 20 feet away when trouble pops up. And there are times when you need your hands free - cooking, caring for children or elderly, loading/unloading the car, setting up camp. You may also need to be "low profile", such as dealing with LEOs or local officials. Certainly they're useful as defense tools from inside your tent or car where a long gun is awkward.

BaronW
11-04-2007, 9:38 PM
I'd agree IF...IFFFFFFFF 100 yards were the furthest one might have to shoot. But "urban" consists of a LOT MORE than inside of 100 yard shots; and hence why I've been talking here about rifles (and PM's). Granted ANYTHING is probably better than nothing (in most cases) but planning for urban survival has to take into account things that you might not have taken into account....like distance. Even a perp with a .22 rifle has you OUTGUNNED at distance with that SG and slugs. The ABSOLUTE furthest I've managed to hit anything with a Slug and open sites was 155 yards and I'd still think it was luck; while with a .22 (allowing for drop) you are still lethal out to 300.............

Rifle is the all around MUST HAVE.
Shotgun if you must.....
Pistol as last best chance..........

Just sommin' to think about.;)

I really thought I added "I'd rather have a carbine, though" at the end of that post, but I apparently didn't. I've been thinking about this thread for a while, actually. I currently have a Remington 870 18", Ruger GP-100 4", and a RC K98k. Clearly with those choices the 12ga and .357 should be the go-to guns... But in the future I want to get a CMP M1 Carbine. (Waiting for IBM :D) I think it's a good SHTF rifle. It's light, low-recoil, and reasonably accurate. It's not a sniper rifle, nor is it shooting a full-power rifle round, but I value quick follow up shots. And until the S H's the F, it'll make a nice conversation piece/collectible.

I must admit though, I don't know the exact limitations of the carbine. How far away could I expect to hit a man-sized target?

M. Sage
11-04-2007, 9:48 PM
If you're a decent shot? 200 yards. 100 yards easily.

I agree that the Carbine is a good SHTF rifle: compact, light, decently accurate (enough for urban use, absolutely), and powerful... enough. :D

ETA: A .22 would only be very useful for very very precise shooting. I wouldn't bet my life on it. I can hit a man-size target at 100 yards with a 12 gauge slug. Someone could probably hit me at 100 yards with their .22 rifle, but unless they hit me between the eyes (I ain't gonna stand still!!), I can tell you which of us would be in worse shape.

SVRider
11-04-2007, 9:59 PM
OK....I've been following this thread since it started....

What about the times when SHTF when you are not at home...at work for instance....

Are you guys seriously carrying in the car? Legal carry of course (locked and unloaded), but still....are you not concerned about theft? The monetary loss would be secondary to me....I'd feel worse about putting a firearm on the street and explaining to the cops how it was "stolen"....

I am sure there are people that carry, pistol or rifle in the trunk, but seriously....no worries having it just lying in the back of your car which is outside open to the public all day?

I'm curious to see where people stand on this....

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 10:14 PM
I really thought I added "I'd rather have a carbine, though" at the end of that post, but I apparently didn't. I've been thinking about this thread for a while, actually. I currently have a Remington 870 18", Ruger GP-100 4", and a RC K98k. Clearly with those choices the 12ga and .357 should be the go-to guns... But in the future I want to get a CMP M1 Carbine. (Waiting for IBM :D) I think it's a good SHTF rifle. It's light, low-recoil, and reasonably accurate. It's not a sniper rifle, nor is it shooting a full-power rifle round, but I value quick follow up shots. And until the S H's the F, it'll make a nice conversation piece/collectible.

I must admit though, I don't know the exact limitations of the carbine. How far away could I expect to hit a man-sized target?

ALL good guns you got there. ALL built like Brick Shat-houses:D And dont forgo you ALREADY HAVE a sniper rifle...that k98 if worth its weight in spit *should* be able to do decently out to 600 with no problem...and you can/should be able to also with some practice. Dont ever underestimate a K98....they nearly took the world:eek:

As for the carbine, I agree with the fella above me. The M1 carbine is great out to 200....some claim out to 300 yet you're quickly developing a big case of the falls-off in trajectory IIRC my ballistics charts for a 30 carbine round. Still supposedly deadly to 300 though.....

I personally never thought about them, nor let alone owning one; then on a fluke I bought a buddy's going through a divorce...and I was SOLD on them. Did ok too, if I says so myself, in one of the few carbine matches that Richmond's held. ABSOLUTELY made me re-think a *First* gun for anyone entering into guns...be it women children or even tha' dudes-- its a hard to beat lil' sucker.

Now just more fuel for the frey:
I've mentioned these a time or two...and since you re-brought up shotguns...I've added these lil suckers to my arsenal. They aint gonna take distance shot; but they ARE liberators and a NICE back up to anyone on a true budget and somehow getting *stuck with only* a shotgun. They DO make them for rifle rounds in Stainless steel (from another company) but these are pistol/Shotgun adapters from Numrich....I picked some up in .22,9mm, 38/357 and .44 and would make a nice touch to anyone wanting the flexabilitity in some urban disater to be able to use just about any ammo you come accross (if you have the right adapter) to either still fight on, liberate another weapon, take small game, double/triple/whatever your ammo capacity in light of how bulky Shot shells are by themselves.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f115/metalhead357/adapters/adapters_007.jpg

these ARE actually rifled...albeit they're only as long as a 2 3/4 shell. so again you aint going for distance shots. Aint NOTHING like the sound of a pistol round being fired outta big ol' 12 gauge:D

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f115/metalhead357/adapters/adapters_005.jpg

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 10:52 PM
I personally don't believe that weight of a carthridge not a big consideration in "normal" urban SHTF situation. If you end up in situation where 100 rounds of .308 are not enough...... chances are you have bigger problem than 300 .223 can solve. On other hand I also don't see taking 600 yard shots, especially in the city.



VERY true about the weight for a stay put...and very true about bigger problems abounding if 100 rounds are not enough. But then again.....think of Katrina and MONTHS later there were people still there with "order" restored but the lawlessness and feeding problems abounded. Dont know where you live...but for me in both my domiciles- I can walk 3 yardss out my front door and in one see for close to 1500 yards, from upstairs ever further: the second dwelling (where I'd probably bug out to) is almost the same- from the front door out maybe 4 yards and up the street is about 900 and down the street is ean easy 1200, with the upstairs again seeing further


People who think they'll have to live "pioneer style" in the bush country within 100 miles of their city are dreaming. It's likely thousands of others have the same idea and game will be very scarce...unless you like rat and squirrel

Hence why soooooooooo many boards have tremendous followings about how to *handle* such situations...like YOU BE THERE FIRST or YOU own the land and know the peeps adjacent to it and all make the solum vow to stand united. There is LOTS of info on other boards--its a far cry from the <absence> of a survival section here unfortunately. Sure...most will dream of surviving in the woods...and two days later they'll be back-treking to the cities looking for handouts or moving towards other cities looking for help/shelter. That or they'll turn rabid/ravenous and go batty and (hate to say it) make themselves Prime targets for wayward thugs and be shooo-ed away peacefully or forcibly from others in the country looking after thier own. I had the notion LONG before Katrina...but the visitations of the Superdome incidents just cinched it for me-- I'd rather go it with me& my kin rather than have ANY part of that nonsense....Firearms confiscated, people raped while others watched...some dying and then dead for days before anyone noticed. Made defenseless by firearms confications before entering while all the while promising *protection*...yeh ha! you go believe that horse-pucky...I aint having NONE of it.

I have eaten squirrel, and I have hunted rat amongst alot of other things- if it goes to hell in a handbasket the game laws are out the door & night hunting's a must; gimmie gimmie squirrel jerkie long before Super-Dome-dom. Let the city-wanna be do as they will, as the song goes "A country boy can survive";)

metalhead357
11-04-2007, 11:00 PM
What about the times when SHTF when you are not at home...at work for instance....

....

Decent question. Work Close to home. I do at one of my domiciles, that even in some freakish emergency I could WALK home in about 20 minutes. For the wife though I think it'd be a recon mission to go get her:rolleyes:


CCW is a very viable option for a LOT here in cali of you DONT live down south. But back to the *last best chance* thoery of a pistol protecting you:cool: For me it's be fight to get home if needs be....have a wheeler that CAN do more than pound pavement and is good to/thorugh 3 feet of water if I can opt for that route to get to me & the supplies.

Short of that. As you mentioned a Trunk gun IS another viable option for SOME. For those not falling into that *some* catagory....I donnu what to say off the top of my head..... I've read for it but I'll have to think a bit more on that one 'fore I spout off.

MINIsandpirate
11-05-2007, 1:13 AM
Pistol: Ruger MKII(modifications by volquartsen)
ammo:CCI Stinger Copper JHP Hypervelocity or Subsonics(i use those with my 6in bull barrel) plus i have like 10 mags for it
Shotgun:Win 1300 12ga pump(with mag tube plug removed of course)
round:HP Deer slugs(good up to 100 yds and i have proven that fact) or Sabot rounds(nothing like a good ol flechetting)
Rifle(if necessary):Browning BLR '81 300 WSM with multiple spare box mags(since they are detachable)

just my .02

xrMike
11-05-2007, 8:03 AM
:confused: Where'd you get THAT stat???????:confused: I aint saying you're lying-- but I aint seeing it within the counties I frequent...... 9mm and .45's still rule the day.My reply is off-topic, but I found your question interesting. A quick googling turned this up:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

by Massad Ayoob

The .40 S&W caliber is the overwhelming top choice of police departments today, followed by the .357 SIG and the .45.

A neighbor-buddy of mine just got on with the Monterey Co. sherrif's dept. and they issued him a .40 caliber Glock. He likes it, but still prefers his personal 1911.

BaronW
11-05-2007, 11:52 AM
I have to hope the SHTF on a weekend, because during the week I'm at school and unarmed. I really oughta buy one of those kimber pepper spray things for the trek to my parents and my firearms.

1911_sfca
11-05-2007, 12:24 PM
I think that the .40 is a great choice. #1 chambering for law enforcement officers in America, so you have a good chance of finding spare ammo in the abandoned police cars...

-Jim

If you come looking for ammo in my police car, you might get yourself shot. Be careful.

JALLEN
11-05-2007, 12:51 PM
Interesting thread.

While you are worrying about such things as calibers, carrying, etc. best give some consideration to how, or whether, you will move around with all that "stuff."

With the population at least in the metro areas, travel by road is not a solution. For most of the folks I've seen at ranges, etc. traveling very far on foot is going to be out of the question. Most of them get winded walking back out to the car to get their IDs at the range. A great many need to lose serious weight before TSHTF. True, some are relatively young and in decent shape, but a great many are not.

I am entering my senior citizenhood, and need to lose another 30 lbs or so. On a day with great weather, dressed in running attire, and carrying a water bottle, cell phone and knife, I can travel 7-8 miles, on level ground (at the beach, hard sand, actually) no obstructions. That takes me not quite two hours, but I would not want to do it more than twice in one day. Make it lousy weather, unfavorable terrain, obstructions, and/or carrying a load of supplies and my travel radius would be drastically reduced.

Given factors such as those, a great many would be well advised to stay put, hunker down with their equipment and supplies, and defend it the best they can.

I chose a GP100 .357 revolver and Winchester 94 in .357, along with a Win 12 ga. as a combination of equipment that seems to meet most of my perceived needs.

BillCA
11-05-2007, 2:38 PM
Excellent points Jallen.

I alluded to this in my post (#51) by saying unless you're absolutely forced out of your home, it's better to stay in an area you know than hit the road.

For most of us, trying to hike out of any kind of city will be a no-go. Not only physical conditioning, but time will not be on your side if you can't make more than about 10 miles a day. I figure 2mph with a 50 pound pack is about the best you can do and rest stops will eat into your total distance.

By the way, your selection of defense tools is good too. Among other items, I have a similar setup;
http://dragon.hematite.com/M57M1894.jpg
Marlin 1894FG & S&W Model 57 - both in .41 Magnum

lazuris
11-05-2007, 2:49 PM
Lol why all the "we're gonna hunt rats and squirrels" there are very few squirells in the OC. However, there are tons of dogs and cats. If the SHTF my kitchen is gonna smell like a Vietnamese restaurant.

Solidmch
11-05-2007, 2:52 PM
Pfft...

Just call 911. Leave the gunfighting to trained men.

If you're accosted by someone, just comply and give them what they want.

Police chiefs all over urban America has urged this from you. Listen to them.


Yes your right, Never mind that they only want my wife and three daughters. The police will get to me as soon as they are done helping the 32000 people looting. I trust my government to protect me and my family. I only have my guns to look cool and be on this fourm.:rolleyes:

metalhead357
11-05-2007, 4:47 PM
My reply is off-topic, but I found your question interesting. A quick googling turned this up:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

by Massad Ayoob
A neighbor-buddy of mine just got on with the Monterey Co. sherrif's dept. and they issued him a .40 caliber Glock. He likes it, but still prefers his personal 1911.


I GOTTA talk to Mas about UPdating that website
Copyright 1998 :eek: I'm gonna speak to d' man on another board and see if he's changed his assessment....again- I aint saying you're wrong-- just a wierd stat;)

Interesting..............

metalhead357
11-05-2007, 5:35 PM
While you are worrying about such things as calibers, carrying, etc. best give some consideration to how, or whether, you will move around with all that "stuff."

Given factors such as those, a great many would be well advised to stay put, hunker down with their equipment and supplies, and defend it the best they can.

I chose a GP100 .357 revolver and Winchester 94 in .357, along with a Win 12 ga. as a combination of equipment that seems to meet most of my perceived needs.

GREAT equip choices.

As for movin' it...could always go the Gunkid route...Assault Wheel barrow:p It is a JOKE and I hope nobody tries it.

But the threads out in cyber land cover this pretty extensively. You go with what you GOT, not what you'd like to have-- so if all you got is a station wagon, then you know what you're going with//////

But hey, Everything from Bikes to off road motorccles has been thought up- including trail-along pulls for them cycles. The MUST is to get gone EARLY...and (paranoia? I dont think so) KEEP YER' STINKING CAR FILLED with gas-- DONT ever let it go beyond 1/4 from the top-- in that way you wont have to suddenly make a pit stop before leaving. Bug out by BOAT, bug out by ATV and even the infamous's Gunkid's wheelbarrow has been explored and debated for years. One guy I know/knew was planning an Ultralight evac..... Whatever you DO choose...know that you MIGHT not get your number one choice- so have LAYERS....REDUNDANCY...or as simple as I can put it- back-ups and more back ups.

By foot: ABSOLUTELY the last recouse for nearly all-- as you hit the nail on the head most ARE outta shape, meeeee too (What? ROUND IS a shape:p) but seriously, 10 miles a day would even be a stretch for a lot of peeps. Add in a 60 lb pack (about the miniumum with all the proverbial must have supplies MINUS WATER) and one rifle and some would be lucky to do 5 in a day.

By Foot also needs a true destination in mind and a well known travel route (well known to YOU....not everybody else)as you will most likely want to stay off all roads...and yet NOT travl across someone's land whereby they might take YOU as a looter and shoot on sight.

ONE OPTION often recently talked about is actually using Self storage units along escape routes.......... C'mon you KNOW you got enough clutter to toss some in a shed 30 miles from home:p. It makes a PERFECT place to stash some rations (keep 'em rotated) as well as back up ammo and another weapon ((Some DO have restrictions on Ammo/explosives...so pick them places with care)). Some have re-marked that the distance...or distances should correlate to what you CAN do/walk in a day......... but to ME...heck, if its THAT bad I'm running with the rifle/ammo and water purifier- I can make do without the rest until I reach a personal re-supply dump. Others have just jointly agreed to stagger the places ((asumming you are in a group)); Like a evac from SF to Santa Rosa and maybe beyond... You have a storage unit in Marin, your brother in law gets one in Novato-- you each HAVE BEEN to the places and each DOES KNOW the combo and each DOES have legitimate access to the property & all contents as proscribed in the rental agreement and with add-ons. These things DO NOT have to be big. Throw the seasonal stuff in them and some porta water, ammo, (Gas is usally a BIG TIME no-no in nearly every place) and some dried/sealed foods, sleeping back, changes of clothes ((that actually fit)) maybe one or two back-up arms ((and ammo))((this IS the argument for liberators AND for keeping *junker* guns;)))

But above all....REHEARSE...as in PRRACTICE the escape route if at all possible. WHY go to Maui when you can play EVAC instead??????? Its A LOT more fun and you DO truly see what you might be needing!!!!!!

And No one ever asks WHY I'm "on the road" sooooooooo stinking much:sleeping:

JALLEN
11-05-2007, 8:48 PM
Excellent points Jallen.
>> SNIP <<
I figure 2mph with a 50 pound pack is about the best you can do and rest stops will eat into your total distance.
>> SNIP <<
By the way, your selection of defense tools is good too.

Yours are pretty slick too. Here's a photo of mine.
http://i21.tinypic.com/2agon6h.jpg

I read that Napolean's army marched to Russia at a mile every 15 minutes, or 4 mph. That's a lot of men in way better shape than just about any of us, and very much more used to walking carrying a load. If I am carrying what they must have carried, I couldn't make that speed for very long, across any kind of serious terrain anyway.

BillCA
11-05-2007, 11:01 PM
Jallen, nice equipment.

As I remember my college days, we had a history class and studied Napolean's ill-fated foray into mother Russia. One of the students was in theatre and managed to pull together a complete Napolean army uniform & rig. He furnished a reproduction musket similar to that used in the era (1807), spare uniform, razor, soap, mess kit, bedroll, small tent/tarp, rope, etc. Total weight was only about 36 pounds, all stuffed into or on a square sack with shoulder straps. Add powder horn, ammo, and a few miscellaneous items for another 5 pounds. No where near what a modern soldier carries today.

But they were much more used to walking and carrying their gear that today's modern, mechanized soldiers.

freshmex28
11-06-2007, 12:14 PM
Since I am near the coast in densely populated So-Cal, i would travel by water in my assault boat to avoid the massive riots of people. My original choice would have been a vietnam issue PBR but since that is unobtainable I will have to settle to something similar to what seal team 6 uses:

http://americandinosaur.mu.nu/archives/canadian_navy.jpg

BillCA
11-06-2007, 12:39 PM
OMG!! Mall Ninjas still live! :D

Actually, those living near the water and having suitable watercraft might be much better off than most. If you have even a small cabin cruiser, loading it up and heading along the coast is likely to be much faster than grinding it out along a highway.

This presumes that your boat has fuel and the weather and seas aren't too rough.

grammaton76
11-06-2007, 1:04 PM
When I was packing for fire evac, just in case, I packed the trifecta of 50 cal... 50 DTC AR, 50 Beowulf AR, and 50 Action Express Desert Eagle! Actually no, they weren't for bug-out, they were just because I was going for dollar value.

Were it for real, I'd go with my PTR-91 (collapsible stock), several 20rd mags, and the 5rd mag I can actually legally put into it with a bullet button. That, and my Sig 229 40S&W w/CT grips.

Honorable mention goes to the AK's and the Hakim. I'd consider a 9mm AR if I had one.

Greenspartan117
11-06-2007, 1:06 PM
hmm I'd have to take pretty much all my guns (Sig P220, 225, 226, and a M44), which isn't much at all. as for ammo. I'm used to heavy packs, but I would just divi it up amongst my family members along with dry food. Learning how to backpack will make it easier to prepare for such situations. good all around boots, and light weight synthetic clothing (REI) is a must, sleeping bag, mat, water purification pump and tablets. Nalgene bottles, climbing gear, and rope. Oh can't forget a good camp stove :-D. but that pretty much outlines my TSHTF gear. backpacking trip with a little twist on the survival part.

Greenspartan117
11-06-2007, 1:09 PM
OMG!! The Mall Ninja Lives!! :D

Actually, for those living close to the shore and have an appropriate watercraft like a cabin cruiser, travel by water is likely to be faster (and more pleasant) then grinding it out in highway traffice with 250,000 others.

Well, provided the weather and seas aren't too rough and you have plenty of fuel.


A sailboat would be idea with a supply of fuel..., hmm now to save up money for one...


I could rock that... sail boat... hmm an aircraft carrier would be better or even a battleship in case things go bad, but a sailboat would do it for now.

grammaton76
11-06-2007, 1:12 PM
Or you could just steal an idea from Waterworld and take an oil tanker around so that you can start a gang of pirates...

Greenspartan117
11-06-2007, 1:41 PM
Or you could just steal an idea from Waterworld and take an oil tanker around so that you can start a gang of pirates...


HAHAHA... It doesn't look as cool as a battleship bearing down on you though :-D

Para
11-06-2007, 3:59 PM
Have you ever triied to take over a battle ship...!!!??? They have guns and stuff. Oil tankers on the other hand..... :chris: :chris: :chris:

maxicon
11-07-2007, 9:34 AM
It's tempting to take one of everything for any purpose, but not really practical. There's just no way you can carry a shotgun, rifle, and handgun for an extended hike, particularly in parts of California, where potable water sources can be few and far between, and water weighs over 8 lb/gallon.

Here are some typical weights:

Shotgun:
Winchester 1300 Defender 12 gauge - 6.5 lbs
25 rounds 12 gauge ammo - 2 lbs
Sling, ammo pouch/bandolier, whatever - 1 lbs
100 round SHTF package - 15.5 lbs

Handgun:
Glock 17 w/10 rounds - 1.9 lbs
or
CZ75B w/ 10 rounds - 2.5 lbs
100 rounds 9mm - 2.6 lbs
Holster, spare mags, etc - 1 lb
100 round SHTF package - 5.5-6 lbs

Rifle:
Mini 14 or AR - 7 lbs
100 rounds .223 - 2.8 lbs (from online data, haven't weighed mine)
Sling, mags, etc - 2 lbs
200 round SHTF package - 12 lbs

So, you want to carry one of each? That'll be about 33 pounds. That's before food, water, tools, first aid, clothes, shelter, etc.

Yes, you can flex the amounts, and spread it among your posse members, but it still adds up to a lot of weight. It's another one of the tough choices on SHTF pack-outs.

hamsalad
11-07-2007, 9:51 AM
Well, my first post. Here goes...

These are all variants of worst case scenarios. This gun, that gun. Urban, crowded, etc.

I think the best thing would be to pack what you are good at shooting, what your spouse/kids can shoot if you are disabled and above all else, stay low and as invisible as possible. If you aren't seen or heard, they can't see you as a target. If you have to move, well, things are different, but thinking should be first and moving second.

Centurion_D
11-07-2007, 10:05 AM
I would have to say that in the event of urban - natural disaster/civil unrest my first choice for a primary firearm would be a rifle. Secondary weapon would be a handgun. I'm very comfortable with my Colt Sporter and decent enough with my 1911. I say go for the firearms that you are best suited with/experienced with and you should be fine.:)

supersonic
11-07-2007, 11:37 AM
GLOCK G20 10mm on my side; SIG P226 .357SIG on my thigh rig; M-1 on my back; MANY loaded magazines & en-blocks for each in duffel bag. And a bottle of Evian in my pocket!:)

cadurand
11-07-2007, 11:45 AM
GLOCK G20 10mm on my side; SIG P226 .357SIG on my thigh rig; AK-47 on my back; MANY loaded magazines for each in duffel bag. And a bottle of Evian in my pocket!:)Now this always makes me scratch my head. I'm not in the military, I've never been a cop.. but it seems to make sense that if you are going to carry two full-size pistols they should be the same model.

This way you only have to carry one caliber and your mags will work in either pistol. Even if you're carrying one pistol as a backup and it needs to be smaller at least keep it the same caliber. In a Glock the full-size mags work in the smaller models which I see as an advantage.

Carrying a Glock and Sig means two different mags and in this case two calibers.

Am I on to something here?

I'd carry to G20's because I love my G20.

supersonic
11-07-2007, 4:04 PM
Now this always makes me scratch my head. I'm not in the military, I've never been a cop.. but it seems to make sense that if you are going to carry two full-size pistols they should be the same model.

This way you only have to carry one caliber and your mags will work in either pistol. Even if you're carrying one pistol as a backup and it needs to be smaller at least keep it the same caliber. In a Glock the full-size mags work in the smaller models which I see as an advantage.

Carrying a Glock and Sig means two different mags and in this case two calibers.

Am I on to something here?

I'd carry to G20's because I love my G20.

I agree w/ your luv of the 10mm. I would grab the 226 because I don't own another 20, or a 29, for that matter. And the .357SIG is the only load that has come even close to impressing me (as far as semi-auto handgun calibers go) as much as the "BIG TEN." One thing, though: EVEN in a stress-induced state, it is VERY easy to tell (by simple sense of touch) the difference between polymer & steel mags.:) Note: I changed (edited) my choice of long gun: WTF was I thinking?;)

metalhead357
11-07-2007, 5:03 PM
Well, my first post. Here goes...

These are all variants of worst case scenarios. This gun, that gun. Urban, crowded, etc.

I think the best thing would be to pack what you are good at shooting, what your spouse/kids can shoot if you are disabled and above all else, stay low and as invisible as possible. If you aren't seen or heard, they can't see you as a target. If you have to move, well, things are different, but thinking should be first and moving second.


Welcome to the fray! I mean Forum:D Good first post;)


I would have to say that in the event of urban - natural disaster/civil unrest my first choice for a primary firearm would be a rifle. Secondary weapon would be a handgun. I'm very comfortable with my Colt Sporter and decent enough with my 1911. I say go for the firearms that you are best suited with/experienced with and you should be fine.:)

cant argue with that.

It's tempting to take one of everything for any purpose, but not really practical. There's just no way you can carry a shotgun, rifle, and handgun for an extended hike, particularly in parts of California, where potable water sources can be few and far between, and water weighs over 8 lb/gallon.

Here are some typical weights

Several sites have run downs like these; Amback has/had one set up as the *standard* mil-spec options of a total B.O kit AND the guns/ammo with a combined total. M14's site once did too, as does Fruggal......I will have to re-track them down if anyone wants them....but you are spec-ON about weight being a true issue if you're going to B.O...... EVEN IF it is by car....having one toooooo loaded up aint going to make life any simpler.

Gryff
11-08-2007, 7:02 AM
My reply is off-topic, but I found your question interesting. A quick googling turned this up:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

by Massad Ayoob



A neighbor-buddy of mine just got on with the Monterey Co. sherrif's dept. and they issued him a .40 caliber Glock. He likes it, but still prefers his personal 1911.

The CHP uses Smith & Wessons in .40 (the 4006 in one of two forms).

troyus
12-10-2007, 10:08 PM
Sounds boring but I think I would take my m1 carbine. It is light, it is reliable, and it is accurate.

Salty
12-10-2007, 10:47 PM
I think a lot of people suggest a .22LR for a SHTF gun because they anticipate the possibility that they may need to hunt for food for long periods of time.

oaklander
12-10-2007, 11:00 PM
Romy "G" with two mags. That's all I need. Ammo is easy to get, fairly easy to carry, and effective. And duct tape. Lots of duct tape. . .

:D

http://sixaddiction.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/IMAG0040.JPG

elSquid
12-10-2007, 11:31 PM
Excellent points Jallen.

I alluded to this in my post (#51) by saying unless you're absolutely forced out of your home, it's better to stay in an area you know than hit the road.

I'm with both of you.

If "the quake" hits and things go crazy for several days, I'm staying home. I'll load the 870 if the circumstances warrant it.

If I have to leave, but I can take the car, then I can fill it with all sorts of goodies. My Browning 30-06, a 10/22, a couple of shotguns, my iPod, a flat of beer...

Having to bug out of a major urban centre on foot means something really big and bad has happened, and that you probably aren't coming back. It also implies that everyone else is probably doing the same thing as well. I have visions of abandoned cars in the road and throngs of people trudging down the roadside. I'd probably want something concealed, so I'd take my P226 and a spare loaded magazine.

I'd also take my 30-30. It's not as visually threatening as an AR/AK/etc so hopefully it would allow me to blend in more. In cases where I need to shoot, I think that personally I can get a good first shot off faster with my Marlin than an AR anyways. And after that shot I'm running: in these situations you really can't afford to get involved in any sort of firefight. I'm sure military units have acceptable rates for casualties for urban warfare, but as an individual, the only acceptable rate for me is 0%.

With that in mind, I think that choosing appropriate footwear is probably more important than weaponry in this context. :)

-- Michael

slick_711
12-10-2007, 11:38 PM
I skipped through parts of this thread, and I saw some people did point this out; but apparently nobody was paying attention. I've got to say many of you are not thinking. Urban disaster survival? Be it earthquake, flooding, hurricane, zombies, corrupt & hostile government... you guys need to put more thought into your gear and caliber choices. I've seen a whole bunch of mentions of good weapons platforms in terrible calibers (or just terrible platforms). And how are you going to lug that junk around?

Good weapons choices in such a situation are anything reliable. A good folding utility knife is required. Good pistols would be Glock, XD, 1911, Sig, HK, Smith/Ruger revolvers (etc.). Rifles should be lightweight and chambered in .22lr or .223 (or less preferably .308). Anything else is silly. A good reliable but not heavy shotgun (12ga) would also be useful, a must if not traveling by foot. Your weapons should all be in calibers that will be readily available. (.22lr, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .223, 12ga). Never underestimate a .22lr. Light rifle, light ammo, quiet, and deadly if used properly. Should this be a situation where you need to evacuate, you have to be able to count on being able to find ammo. You cannot count on packing your ammo. It's heavy, it'll wear you out, and you can never pack enough of it.

Comfortable shoes, a hydration system, and a decent pack of some sort are necessary without question. A good map of your area and the area you intend to go to are also helpful. Fishing line & tackle! Light and compact but an endless supply of food as long as you can get to a water source and it has not been tainted. What's the weather like in your area? What's it like in the area you're going to? Do you have a poncho? Do you know how to turn that poncho into a tent? Some MREs or other preserved/compact food and water purification tablets are helpful for the traveling (or holding out) until the situation is resolved and/or you are in the wilderness and able to set up to sustain yourself. A survival manual if you don't have the training is useful to toss in your pack.

Are you fit to be traveling in the first place? I hate to say it but I see a lot of people coming into the range that are very skilled shooters but couldn't walk 2 miles if they had to, let alone get two miles at a brisk pace with a decent loadout.

These aren't all encompassing thoughts, but it's a starting point for some of you who may be unsure of what you would do in an honest to god SHTF I need to get the F' out of town kind of situation.

If you'd intend to hole up: you need a minimum of two weeks food & water. Don't count on running water/electricity. 1k+ each rounds per your main pistol/rifle/shotgun. You need to be sure you have a defensible position in your home to fall back to.

If you'd bug out: 1 weeks food & 2 days water (thats more than you'd think), 100 rounds for your secondary weapon (pistol), 200+ rounds for your primary weapon (i.e. 6+1 30rd AR mags), shotguns are awesome but if you're on foot the ammo is bulky and heavy.

It's also important to properly judge the situation. Maybe you don't need all this. Perhaps just discreetly carrying a pistol will ensure your safety in a minor disaster.

JeffM
12-10-2007, 11:39 PM
Several sites have run downs like these; Amback has/had one set up as the *standard* mil-spec options of a total B.O kit AND the guns/ammo with a combined total. M14's site once did too, as does Fruggal......I will have to re-track them down if anyone wants them....but you are spec-ON about weight being a true issue if you're going to B.O...... EVEN IF it is by car....having one toooooo loaded up aint going to make life any simpler.

I want the run down if you're up for the work.

When it comes to B.O.(or even B.I.), discretion is important, so concealability is a factor as well as weight. Light and compact is the order or the day as I see it.

slick_711
12-10-2007, 11:51 PM
GLOCK G20 10mm on my side; SIG P226 .357SIG on my thigh rig; M-1 on my back; MANY loaded magazines & en-blocks for each in duffel bag. And a bottle of Evian in my pocket!:)

Not to tear your post apart, those are all awesome firearms, but come on...

If it's a prolonged situation where the heck are you going to find 10mm or .357SIG let alone both? .30-06 is fairly prevalent in stores and the civilian world, although out of military/LE use, so that is an OK choice. It's overly heavy though. And a bottle of Evian will get you maybe four miles if you're carrying all that gear (and were in shape and properly hydrated to begin with). Half that if its summer.

Get a 9mm or .40S&W barrel for your Glock 20 and your Sig226 (then pick one of them to carry). 9mm/.40S&W is easy to come by in stores, and god forbid it's a "revolution" or corrupt government type disaster, preloaded Glock 17 & 22 magazines will be readily available.

metalhead357
12-11-2007, 5:02 AM
I want the run down if your up for the work.

When it comes to B.O.(or even B.I.), discretion is important, so concealability is a factor as well as weight. Light and compact is the order or the day as I see it.


lttme run it down for ya.......... be back after work........

Full Clip
12-11-2007, 9:31 AM
I have three .45 ACPs, a .38 and a 22LR. If I was smart, the .45s would all be the same make and model, but I'm not. Regardless, my 12ga and .223s are the primaries.

A 10mm or .45GAP or similarly/relativly "rare" caliber? No thanks. If I can't find it readily available on the shelf at a Wal-Mart or Big 5 in large quantity, I'm not interested.

A lotta good info here about what's really possible to carry, especially on foot. For those of you who have children, I'm sure you'll be dumping most of your gear when your son or daughter needs to be carried because they are too exhausted to take another step. Forget about fancy backpacks. Invest in a good cart.

But, as a few others mentioned, guns/ammo is just a small part of the survival equation. Here in So Cal, during the summer, clean water will be as important, and much more as the days roll on. And in 100F weather, you can't possibly carry enough to stay hydrated for an extended period of several days.

Because I live in LA County, I have no illusion about escaping via car. Traffic is bad anough at 5pm on any given weekday. You'll be a sitting duck unless you can somehow get ahead of the pack and then get offroad. So until someone or something forces us out, we're staying put.

I still need a solid, long-term water solution, but so does the entire state.

peekay331
12-11-2007, 9:50 AM
Personally, if the SHTF, I wouldn't want to be walking around with an big menacing looking rifle strapped to my shoulder. Too much attention, especially from those looking to kill you to take your weapon.

Instead, I'd opt for a Sig/Glock/S&W/HK whatever pistol in 9mm or .40 in a holster and my folded Keltec SU16 CA in a backpack. The sidearm will give you enough access and force without putting a huge bull eye on your back. The ultra lite weight SU 16 with my preban 30rd mags will give you enough firepower in a civilian context. That is, unless you neighbor with the M60 machine gun comes for you!

slick_711
12-11-2007, 3:01 PM
Personally, if the SHTF, I wouldn't want to be walking around with an big menacing looking rifle strapped to my shoulder. Too much attention, especially from those looking to kill you to take your weapon.

Instead, I'd opt for a Sig/Glock/S&W/HK whatever pistol in 9mm or .40 in a holster and my folded Keltec SU16 CA in a backpack. The sidearm will give you enough access and force without putting a huge bull eye on your back. The ultra lite weight SU 16 with my preban 30rd mags will give you enough firepower in a civilian context. That is, unless you neighbor with the M60 machine gun comes for you!

That's an excellent thought but it goes with what I was talking about when I said judge the situation. :)

There are some (unlikely and unforeseeable) disaster situations where a pistol is not enough and a rifle in a backpack is worthless. There are also some (somewhat more likely) situations where that'd be perfect. Anyone that intends to be as ready as possible should think of various situations, what they'd do, where they'd go, who they'd take. In a Katrina style flood a pistol concealed under a loose shirt would be perfect. If the zombies (or JBTs if you so choose) are coming, that pistol ain't going to cut it.

arod7615
12-11-2007, 3:04 PM
anything that goes bang:D

AJAX22
12-11-2007, 3:10 PM
I've been thinking about it alot recently,

My glock 17 with its 33rd mags works great, but If I had a Grendel P30 it would be alot more compact.

and a .22 Magnum with a 30 round clip that is easily concealable would be very close to an ideal sidearm for that situation.

Ironchef
12-11-2007, 3:47 PM
First of all, nobody would mess with me and my family if we had to hit the street in a lawless neighborhood because....
http://www.imgplace.com/directory/dir3651/1197420652.jpg

Actually, if it came down to leaving our home in a katrina type situation where there was no police presense or martial law and military presense, and we actually had a place to go to be safe (Mt. Diablo foothills for example), I'd keep my beretta 92 on my hip and all 5 mags I have full of my best bullets (speer gdhp), and something to conceal it like a worn jacket. I'd hand my wife the Mosin Nagant 91/30 and a couple stripper clips of 7.62x54r...and affix the bayonet and she could sling that over her shoulder and provide supporting fire or just shoot traffic signs if she was bored (after all, who's gonna care?). The little ones (6, 4, and 2) can carry transformers toys as the last resort backup defense.

So fun to think of these things. It's just like video games! weeeeee!

JeffM
12-11-2007, 5:05 PM
One of the problems with the katrina situation was that there were police and/or military there that were ordered to take guns away from people (but I don't want to get into that s* storm here). I'm just saying that discretion is important. I don't want to be noticed by the authorities, I don't want to be seen by the opportunistic, I don't want to be seen or noticed by anyone.

Be an overwhelming force when you need to be, all other times blend into the background. I'd rather be overlooked as a non-threat than win a firefight.

Just my $0.02



Actually, if it came down to leaving our home in a katrina type situation where there was no police presense or martial law and military presense, and we actually had a place to go to be safe (Mt. Diablo foothills for example), I'd keep my beretta 92 on my hip and all 5 mags I have full of my best bullets (speer gdhp), and something to conceal it like a worn jacket. I'd hand my wife the Mosin Nagant 91/30 and a couple stripper clips of 7.62x54r...and affix the bayonet and she could sling that over her shoulder and provide supporting fire or just shoot traffic signs if she was bored (after all, who's gonna care?). The little ones (6, 4, and 2) can carry transformers toys as the last resort backup defense.

So fun to think of these things. It's just like video games! weeeeee!

peekay331
12-11-2007, 6:54 PM
That's an excellent thought but it goes with what I was talking about when I said judge the situation. :)

There are some (unlikely and unforeseeable) disaster situations where a pistol is not enough and a rifle in a backpack is worthless. There are also some (somewhat more likely) situations where that'd be perfect. Anyone that intends to be as ready as possible should think of various situations, what they'd do, where they'd go, who they'd take. In a Katrina style flood a pistol concealed under a loose shirt would be perfect. If the zombies (or JBTs if you so choose) are coming, that pistol ain't going to cut it.
yes, I agree my setup may not be perfect, but it's as versatile as anything I can think of. The beauty is that the KelTec is concealable if necessary. If concealement is not necessary, I can always have it slinged and ready to rock.

foolthomas
12-12-2007, 12:33 PM
if i had to choose a pistol it might depend on if i were rollin' out with any other weapons (rifles, shoty) or if i had to depend on the pistol alone. either way it would probably be something loosely constructed for reliability and function under various conditions (not a custom built pistol). it would most likely be double stack too. and of course .45 caliber:

glock 21
hk usp 45

cmaynes
12-12-2007, 3:20 PM
for the bad times I would not skimp-

A good pistol (or three), a shotgun and a rifle are all good things to have- I am partial to calibers that law enforcement use so you can get topped off by the authorities if needed as well-

I would prefer my 9mm USP, an 870 and an M4 carbine with an EOTech or other holo sight. If I had some extra space an Remington 700 in .308 or even a KAR98 would be welcome too- I would want a semi-auto rifle more though. The SR25 is really nice too...

cm

WokMaster1
12-12-2007, 3:50 PM
for the bad times I would not skimp-

A good pistol (or three), a shotgun and a rifle are all good things to have- I am partial to calibers that law enforcement use so you can get topped off by the authorities if needed as well-

I would prefer my 9mm USP, an 870 and an M4 carbine with an EOTech or other holo sight. If I had some extra space an Remington 700 in .308 or even a KAR98 would be welcome too- I would want a semi-auto rifle more though. The SR25 is really nice too...

cm

bear in mind that a lot of Law Enforcement have gone to 40 S&W caliber & only NG units use 9mm. They will not be so kind as to share any ammo with anyone at that time.

metalhead357
12-12-2007, 4:49 PM
I want the run down if you're up for the work.

When it comes to B.O.(or even B.I.), discretion is important, so concealability is a factor as well as weight. Light and compact is the order or the day as I see it.


Ok, sorry for the delay- had to ask one of the mods to track it back to the original post(er) that it came from. 3 different basic kits with a couple of Gun combinations-->

First Line Gear is the stuff that you want with you no matter what. Lets say you were doing a river crossing, and you lost for footing. Guess what, you will ditch your ruck, your rifle and your LBE/LBV so you can swim to sho
http://www.awrm.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000239;p=0

2nd Line Gear is your 'FIGHTING GEAR'
http://www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000240

3rd Line Gear (Heavy) - we mean you need to live out of your ruck for up to two weeks, or it is winter and you must carry more gear
http://www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000241

elSquid
12-12-2007, 6:12 PM
First Line Gear
http://www.awrm.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000239;p=0
2nd Line Gear is your 'FIGHTING GEAR'
http://www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000240
3rd Line Gear (Heavy) - we mean you need to live out of your ruck for up to two weeks, or it is winter and you must carry more gear
http://www.awrm.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000241

I think this guy might be lookin' at more than just simple survival.

A sanitized map, so if lost, it doesn't compromise "the mission".
A PVS-14 and batteries.
Smoke grenade.
400 rounds of 5.56 at level 2, ~700 at level 3.
"Crapping in a bag and packing it out" so you can't be tracked...

:eek:

Actually, what really caught my eye was carrying 24 AA batteries. Yikes!

:)

-- Michael

metalhead357
12-12-2007, 6:25 PM
I think this guy might be lookin' at more than just simple survival.

A sanitized map, so if lost, it doesn't compromise "the mission".
A PVS-14 and batteries.
Smoke grenade.
400 rounds of 5.56 at level 2, ~700 at level 3.
"Crapping in a bag and packing it out" so you can't be tracked...

:eek:

Actually, what really caught my eye was carrying 24 AA batteries. Yikes!

:)

-- Michael

Oh yeah...it can get wacky--- but it gives <some> a better idea of the weight(s) involved and what it actually DOES take to *stay in the field* for quite some time without a re-supply. EVERY *mission* is case specific and area specific...gotta adjust to YOUR needs and realistic expectations.

But truth be told- I'm more worried about shooting for food than for shooting at BG's as IF YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO SHOOT--- well then you're in deeeeeeeep crap as that aint the way to *play it* if you're looking to survive....Shoot AND SCOOT might be...but avoid at nearly all costs is always the more prudent measure in a B.O.;) just one man's opinion.....

elSquid
12-12-2007, 10:05 PM
Oh yeah...it can get wacky--- but it gives <some> a better idea of the weight(s) involved and what it actually DOES take to *stay in the field* for quite some time without a re-supply. EVERY *mission* is case specific and area specific...gotta adjust to YOUR needs and realistic expectations.

Sure, but a "rational" bug out situation would be something Katrina-like. Areas of lawlessness, but once you transit out you should be okay. You don't really need to carry 2 weeks of food and a brazillion rounds of ammo.

If it's truly TEOTWAWKI and you have to hoof it out of a major city, you're pretty much screwed. You can't carry enough. And anywhere you can walk, others can too, so it'd be hard to escape the masses. Luckily that's an extremely remote possibility, and one that I pretty much discount, aside from the odd gun thread. :)

But truth be told- I'm more worried about shooting for food than for shooting at BG's as IF YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO SHOOT--- well then you're in deeeeeeeep crap as that aint the way to *play it* if you're looking to survive....Shoot AND SCOOT might be...but avoid at nearly all costs is always the more prudent measure in a B.O.;) just one man's opinion.....

Totally agree with avoiding conflict as much as possible. However, in a Katrina situation there is no reason to hunt. Most people can afford to not eat for a couple days, but it's not a bad idea to have a couple MREs/etc just in case. And of course, by the time you leave the city and get somewhere where there is game, you are probably "out of the woods", so to speak. Water is probably the bigger issue.

-- Michael

movie zombie
12-13-2007, 11:40 AM
Totally agree with avoiding conflict as much as possible. However, in a Katrina situation there is no reason to hunt. Most people can afford to not eat for a couple days, but it's not a bad idea to have a couple MREs/etc just in case. And of course, by the time you leave the city and get somewhere where there is game, you are probably "out of the woods", so to speak. Water is probably the bigger issue.

-- Michael[/QUOTE]

unless, of course, you come out of the city and into the woods and want to take over the game and water rights of the person who bought and is sitting on the land that they still presume is theirs and who have their own guns..... if things are really really bad, i wouldn't assume that the country dwellers are going to welcome the city dwellers.

movie zombie

JTROKS
12-13-2007, 9:04 PM
Hmmm... What mode of trasportation are you taking to bug out of the city and into the woods? I'm thinking a vehicle will be used, and if so I have plenty of room for a few handguns and ammunition. My choice will be two 6" SS GP100s, a S&W 5906 will all the mags loaded, two Browning Buckmarks and three 1911s in 45. Not counting all the MAKs and ARs with all mags fully loaded. Just me.

JTROKS

Pugster
01-17-2008, 8:30 PM
If I had to go anywhere, assuming it's just an earthquake/flooding, I will have two simple choices:

1) Loaded Sig P226 with three mags and my SKS with 100 rounds on stripper clips

2) Loaded Sig P226 with three mags and my Mossberg 500 with 25 rounds on a belt

JSPEC SW20
08-28-2008, 2:32 PM
bump :whistling:

BillCA
08-28-2008, 3:27 PM
It's good to be prepared, but sometimes these threads get really whacky.


You'll need a minimum of 3 days rations after any event. You can possibly stretch that to 6-8 days, maybe. More is good.
Most of us are not physically fit enough to carry a 50 pound field pack, weapons, water, etc. and make very good time on roads, much less cross country. Adding children or older family members will not help.
Urban dwellers trying to get out of metro areas will find themselves joined by 550,000 other people with similar goals.
Do you think the woods won't be crawling with others thinking of deer meat? Or the dregs of society looking to prey on refugees?
Most disasters are "short term" and localized to one area (which may be large). Figure 3 days before resources start to arrive and setup. Within 7 days usually there is help and disaster relief.
If roads are impassible for help to get in, it's unlikely you can get out without 4x4 and extra fuel.
There are times it's better to bug-in (stay put) than try to leave.
If there are warnings that peril is looming, either leave right away or at the first inkling that evacuation orders are being considered. Don't wait to be on the road with 1.2 million other cars.
If you bug out, plan to buy WAY out away from the disaster zone. Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, Texas, etc. Probably 90% of evacuees will try to stay "nearby" to their homes.
Obey the laws - as much as possible - and obey civil authorities to avoid trouble. In fact, you might want to avoid authorities whenever possible.
If your bug-out will take more than 20 hours to arrive at your destination do not bug-out alone. You have to sleep sometime and exhaustion brings deep sleep. Extra eyes and ears are good, only if trustworthy.


You are unlikely to need thousands of rounds of ammo. And you won't be able to take that much if leaving on foot.

Yes, someone may realize you're shooting at them with a .22, but no one wants to be shot. Especially when medical resources are not easily available.

eccvets
08-28-2008, 3:54 PM
police response time is not always so quick and some times someone may want to kill ya so there are no witnesses to a crime they just commited. Your theories are ok in a nice world, this is not a nice world!:rolleyes:





Pfft...

Just call 911. Leave the gunfighting to trained men.

If you're accosted by someone, just comply and give them what they want.

Police chiefs all over urban America has urged this from you. Listen to them.

Sobriquet
08-28-2008, 4:18 PM
police response time is not always so quick and some times someone may want to kill ya so there are no witnesses to a crime they just commited. Your theories are ok in a nice world, this is not a nice world!:rolleyes:

+1. I'm not at all in support of vigilantism, but as someone who had to physically fight off a home invader while the police waited downstairs because they were unwilling to break the door of a condo building..... I'll call 911 *and* have a loaded .45.

SJgunguy24
08-28-2008, 4:18 PM
Saiga 7.62 light and easy to shoot well. Glock 17 with standard mags and Arrendondo + 5 base plates. G26 back up. Lotsa ammo can buy ya some time.

-hanko
08-28-2008, 4:24 PM
police response time is not always so quick and some times someone may want to kill ya so there are no witnesses to a crime they just commited. Your theories are ok in a nice world, this is not a nice world!:rolleyes:
It was obvious (very obvious) sarcasm...somehow it got by ya';)

-hanko

redcliff
08-28-2008, 8:50 PM
I think FerFal's commentary is especially relevant in this thread:


GUNS, AMMO AND OTHER GEAR
=========================

After TSHTF in 2001, only the most narrow minded, brain washed,
butterfly IQ level idiots believed that the police would protect
them from the crime wave that followed the collapse of our economy.
A lot of people that could have been considered to be antigun before
TSHTF ran to the gun shops, seeking advise on how to defend themselves
and their families. They would buy a 38 revolver, a box of ammo,
and leave it in the closet, probably believing that it would magically
protect them from intruders.

Oh, maybe you don't think that firearms are really necessary or your
beliefs do not allow you to buy a tool designed to kill people.
So you probably ask yourself, is a gun really necessary when TSHTF?
Will it truly make a difference?
Having gone through a TSHTF scenario myself, total economic collapse in
the year 2001, and still dealing with the consequences, 5 years later, I
feel I can answer that question. YES, you need a gun, pepper spray, a
machete, a battle axe, club with a rusty nail sticking out of it, or
whatever weapon you can get a hold of.

A LOT has been written on survival weapons. Everyone that is into armed
survival has his or her own idea of the ideal gun battery.
Some are more oriented to a hunting point of view, others only as self
defense means and others consider a little of both, and look for
general purpose weapons. Talking about guns, there is one special
subject I want to rectify, and it's the point on what's the
primary weapon for the survivalist, especially an urban survivalist who
has to function in a society,even after the SHTF.

The primary defensive weapon for the survivalist is his HANDGUN. It's
the weapon that stays with him when he is doing his business
around town of working on the field. The survivalist IS NOT a soldier,
even though you are a soldier or you once were the meanest
mother on the battlefield, your home town is not a battlefield and it
won't be, even if the SHTF.
A LOT of water has to go under the bridge until the situation gets to a
point where you can calmly walk down the street with a rifle on your
shoulder.
People, if you are interested in real world SHTF situations and you want
to prepare for the real deal, then understand this isn't black or
white.

You wake up one day and listen on the radio that the economy collapsed
and that the stock market closed indefinitely. What do you do?
You still have to go to the office/work/whatever. Kiss the wife good bye
and walk to the office with your AR-15 across your back, or across your
chest, Israeli style, ready to shoot? You won't get far. Someone will
shoot you or throw you in jail or in a mental institution.

What I'm trying to explain, is that it's ok to prepare for China,
Germany, the UN or the Martians invading your country.
That is the extreme, less likely worst case scenario. There is an
infinity spectrum of gray between the black and white.
White being your average normal day and black being total TEOTWAWKI,
lizard men invading the planet.
Rifles do have a place in the survivalist's arsenal, and a very
important one. But you have to understand that 90% of the time, the
handgun will be the weapon you need to have available when you need a
gun.

You can't compare to a trooper in Iraq that has his weapon with him at
all times. I ask you how many soldiers do you know that keep wearing
cammo and toting their M4s around town when they return home?

What works for war does not work for the survivalist, especially the
urban survivalist. Even if you live in a retreat far from town,
you have to work, don't you? Or do you have employees that take care of
all your mundane tasks, leaving you all day to keep watch
with your rifle ready?

A soldier is part of a huge machine; HIS job is to carry that rifle,
while others take care of other needs. A survivalist, one that is not
part of a large survivalist group, has no one to cover for him.
When a new guy looks for advice on what to get for defense, some will
recommend a rifle or shotgun as a first defensive weapon. Let's say race
riots start in this guy's city. He still has to go to work every day.
What is he supposed to do? Shove his pump shotgun in his pocket?

A handgun, even though less powerful, can be used for home defense AND
go with you wherever you need to go. If the place floods, he can still
hop into an evacuation boat without leaving his weapon behind. I'm sure
no rescue team will pick you if you are carrying a long arm. They'll ask
you to leave it behind for sure.
What if your government, realizing that TSHTF and that they lost control
of the events, bans all firearms indefinitely? Don't know about you, but
if things are that bad, I'd like to be armed. You can hide a handgun
under a jacket. You can't hide a long arm under your clothes.

I think it was Clint Smith who said that the handgun is only used to
fight his way to his rifle. Man! That sounds "macho". I'd love
to see him walking into Wal-Mart with his tactical M4, taking the
subway, visiting the doctor or going to the bank. "Over here Mr.
Smith, you can hang you M4 right next to my coat" I don't think so.
Guys, unless you have your own shooting school, you do not get
to carry your rifle to work.

OK, now that I got that out of my chest lets look at some options.

Handguns: Revolver or Pistol? Pistol ALL THE WAY!
Yes, I saw the video of the guy that accurately emptied his S&W in less
than a second. I also saw the shooting range and the crowd behind him,
watching the event. Can he shoot and reload that way if he is in his
car, driving with one hand and shooting with the other,
while a bunch of scumbags in another car are shooting at him?
Hey, maybe he can. I know I can't. Can you? Generally speaking, the
revolver is more difficult to master than the pistol. The double action
is hard and it affects speed and accuracy. It can be done, but I've
found pistols are easier, as have many shooters. Also, even though they
seem to be more simple, revolvers are not as rugged as service
pistols.The mechanisms that cycles the cylinder and cocks the hammer
is both complicated and fragile compared to auto pistols.

Before anyone starts casting evil voodoo spells at me for insulting
their prized S&W or Ruger: I own revolvers and like shooting
them.
I just don't think they are the best option for self defense, and I see
that everyone I talk to in my country (Argentina) who is worried
about security as I am also chooses pistols.
Quality pistols resist sand, mud and dirt in general better than
revolvers, where a small pebble locked in the mechanism may render the
revolver inoperable.

I personally had a problem with a new stainless steel Taurus Tracker
..357 magnum. After shooting it a couple of times I reloaded it
and shot all 7 rounds as fast as I could and when I tried to empty it, I
found that the empties were stuck because they expanded because of the
heat. I had to wait until the gun cooled a little so I could empty the
gun. Stuff like this can get you killed, even
with a 7 round handgun.

I once saw a man walk into a gun store wanting
to trade his 357 magnum revolver for a 9mm high capacity
pistol. He said he was driving when thugs from another car started
shooting at him. He was chased for a few blocks. He said that he
pulled his revolver and started shooting at them, and ran out of ammo
real fast. He wanted more capacity and fast reloading.

I could not agree with him more. Some will consider this "Spray and
pray", thinking that all rounds should hit the target and if some don't
then it means that you need more time at the range.

Those same people will tell you that they intend to use bolt action rifles
as defensive rifles, making each shot count, without ever missing their
target, one shot one kill. I don't agree with this. One shot one kill
is ok for snipers, but the survivalist should have other alternatives.

I don't see anything wrong with shooting four or five rounds at a
pursuing car. If those rounds make them think twice about their
intentions, they are rounds well spent in my book, even if they don't
kill the attacker.

Suppressive fire is possible if you have a high capacity pistol. I
wouldn't doubt on using such a tactic if it serves my purposes, or if it
buys me time to get out of there.
Also keep in mind that criminals are cowards and therefore attack in
groups. The survivalist should be able to face more than just one
attacker.

Getting into a gunfight with two or three armed men while packing a 6
round revolver is hard to deal with. A high capacity pistol can load
about 15 or 19 rounds, and that can certainly make a difference in a
gunfight where you are outnumbered.

If anyone is wondering, people in my country that are
serious about self defense carry Glocks. Those that don't have the money
for a Glock carry Bersas, FM High Powers or 1911 surplus .45s.

The caliber choice calls for endless debate and it is not my intention
here. Lets just say that 9mm , .40 S&W and .45 ACP are the
obvious choices. .40 S&W seem to be the most adequate, both in FMJ and HP,
while 9mm lacks some stopping power and hollow points
should be used if possible. Though the 9mm lacks power compared to the
40S&W, it is more popular world wide, a factor to consider seriously
when choosing a handgun for SHTF. Besides, 9mm can also be used in a
number of carbines and SMG, another important fact to be considered.

eccvets
08-28-2008, 10:04 PM
It was obvious (very obvious) sarcasm...somehow it got by ya';)

-hanko

Eh, I'm stupid these days:chris:. What can I say?

saki302
08-28-2008, 10:49 PM
Simple choice- a reliable 9mm pistol, which you should have lots of mags and ammo for, and a reliable .223 rifle, likewise.

Ammo for those two calibers is very common, and would be relatively easy to find or barter for if it came to that. .308 maybe- but you'll carry less ammo (heavy), and the extra reach is probably unnecessary in an urban environment.

-Dave

ForMyKountry
08-29-2008, 2:51 PM
There is a new handgun that is going to be released very soon called the FMK 9C1. It is small and light weight, a great gun if you want to carry. The company FMKFirearms.com has a very progress marketing program. The founder has a blog at www.formykountry.com which he puts out a weekly column which is also good for a laugh and at the same it makes you think. They just launch a game call Freezer Burn which has the 9C1 in it.

mattman
09-06-2008, 5:21 PM
Try this simple scenario to determine what you personally need/want:

- Imagine your in an urban environment (your neighborhood)
- Estimate the ranges and cover available during a firefight
- Do a mock walk down the street and imagine you get approach by some thugs or ambushed
- Think of how fast you need to react and how many rounds you would need to do so
- Now attempt to retreat from the situation while continue to fire (in your mind of course)?

Can you puts rounds on target, beat a hasty retreat and reload fast enough and with enough round to make it out?

No No No. Gain and maintain enemy contact. Close with and destroy.

M. Sage
09-06-2008, 5:28 PM
Not to tear your post apart, those are all awesome firearms, but come on...

If it's a prolonged situation where the heck are you going to find 10mm or .357SIG let alone both? .30-06 is fairly prevalent in stores and the civilian world, although out of military/LE use, so that is an OK choice. It's overly heavy though. And a bottle of Evian will get you maybe four miles if you're carrying all that gear (and were in shape and properly hydrated to begin with). Half that if its summer.

Get a 9mm or .40S&W barrel for your Glock 20 and your Sig226 (then pick one of them to carry). 9mm/.40S&W is easy to come by in stores, and god forbid it's a "revolution" or corrupt government type disaster, preloaded Glock 17 & 22 magazines will be readily available.

Umm.. something tells me that if you can gain access to ammo, you'll have access to firearms chambered in the calibers you suddenly have available.

Just a thought.

getafterit
09-06-2008, 6:33 PM
I think the BEST rifle/handgun and this is by far the best is the combo that you have the most time with. There is no substitue for practice, practice and more practice.
I read somewhere on this board that a $300 gun with $900 of training is far better than a $1200 gun with little to no training.
As far as reliabilty goes? You cant just take guns and ammo. You need all the support equipment that goes with it. ie.. gun cleaning supplies, repair/replacement parts etc.
During Katrina law enforcement and private contractors (Blackwater?) were confiscating law abiding cavilians guns. Now, the scope of these confiscations may have been limited but it DID happen.
Now, if TSHTF here in Cali. say a big quake that disrupted services. The Govies would deploy not just local law agencies but National guard and even private contractors to keep the peace.
If you were confronted by the "good guys" that wanted to take your weapons, even though all you wanted was to secure your family and property would you be willing to fight them too? If it is anything bigger than the above well then it aint gonna matter much what you take cause were all gonna be fightin each other.
Think about the above for a while and I think you will agree!

getafterit
09-06-2008, 6:37 PM
It's good to be prepared, but sometimes these threads get really whacky.


You'll need a minimum of 3 days rations after any event. You can possibly stretch that to 6-8 days, maybe. More is good.
Most of us are not physically fit enough to carry a 50 pound field pack, weapons, water, etc. and make very good time on roads, much less cross country. Adding children or older family members will not help.
Urban dwellers trying to get out of metro areas will find themselves joined by 550,000 other people with similar goals.
Do you think the woods won't be crawling with others thinking of deer meat? Or the dregs of society looking to prey on refugees?
Most disasters are "short term" and localized to one area (which may be large). Figure 3 days before resources start to arrive and setup. Within 7 days usually there is help and disaster relief.
If roads are impassible for help to get in, it's unlikely you can get out without 4x4 and extra fuel.
There are times it's better to bug-in (stay put) than try to leave.
If there are warnings that peril is looming, either leave right away or at the first inkling that evacuation orders are being considered. Don't wait to be on the road with 1.2 million other cars.
If you bug out, plan to buy WAY out away from the disaster zone. Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, Texas, etc. Probably 90% of evacuees will try to stay "nearby" to their homes.
Obey the laws - as much as possible - and obey civil authorities to avoid trouble. In fact, you might want to avoid authorities whenever possible.
If your bug-out will take more than 20 hours to arrive at your destination do not bug-out alone. You have to sleep sometime and exhaustion brings deep sleep. Extra eyes and ears are good, only if trustworthy.


You are unlikely to need thousands of rounds of ammo. And you won't be able to take that much if leaving on foot.

Yes, someone may realize you're shooting at them with a .22, but no one wants to be shot. Especially when medical resources are not easily available.

Just wanted to +1 all the above!

BillCA
09-07-2008, 9:31 PM
Not to tear your post apart, those are all awesome firearms, but come on...

If it's a prolonged situation where the heck are you going to find 10mm or .357SIG let alone both? .30-06 is fairly prevalent in stores and the civilian world, although out of military/LE use, so that is an OK choice. It's overly heavy though. And a bottle of Evian will get you maybe four miles if you're carrying all that gear (and were in shape and properly hydrated to begin with). Half that if its summer.

Get a 9mm or .40S&W barrel for your Glock 20 and your Sig226 (then pick one of them to carry). 9mm/.40S&W is easy to come by in stores, and god forbid it's a "revolution" or corrupt government type disaster, preloaded Glock 17 & 22 magazines will be readily available.

Slick, likewise not to pick your post apart, but...

Can we have some rational thinking here?

You speak of a "prolonged situation" and question where one might find 10mm or .357 Sig, then go on to say that .30-06 "fairly prevalent in stores and the civilian world"... As if gun shops and Wal*Mart will be open for business as usual and are being regularly supplied. :confused:

Here's my take on it:
If a serious Oh-Chit! event happens where civil authority is breaking down I would expect there to be a big run on popular calibers - .22, .32ACP, .38, .357, .40, .44, .45 etc. for handguns and for rifles it would be .22, .223, .243, .270, .308, .30-30, .30-06, 7.62x39 and some of the older European milsurp calibers like 8mm.

If looting is a problem, you may not see ANY 9mm, .40, .45 or .38 caliber ammo left in stores. Of course looters will take just about anything, even if they have no use for it. But you might be better off having one of those "odd" calibers -- like .41 Magnum, .32 S&W Long, 9x18 or 7.62x25 -- than a popular cartridge. By the time you get to the counter at the gun shop, that may be all that's left!


No No No. Gain and maintain enemy contact. Close with and destroy.

When alone and confronted by superior armed forces, the prudent tactic is to use one or two aimed shots before withdrawing towards a secure location or better cover. Flanking your opponents is difficult to do with a force of one. Likewise, "gain & maintain" requires plenty of ammo to be successful.

CalNRA
09-08-2008, 12:21 AM
packing my Glock and a few boxes of JHP. A gun that doesn't need cleaning or excessive oiling is a good gun.

getafterit
09-08-2008, 5:06 AM
Hmmm. Im a little confused. This board is primarily about the AR/AK platform. The good guys and the bad have been using them for years. The bad guys have adopted a smaller bullet, closer to our 5.56mm. Now that tells me something about our little 5.56x45mm.
It can and will kill ANYTHING (living) that one comes in contact with. This includes elk, deer, bear, pig (kills them real good) moose (for those up north) aligator (for those in the south east) and well of course, heaven forbid, humans. The later has been proved time and time again.
Another thing to think about is most bad guys dont have/carry/own the AR platform. Not to say none of them have them just most dont.
The 5.56 round is produced by the billions (yes billions) now. Id say more than any other commercially available round. So, if the SHTF say on a level where services were down and out for a couple of weeks then AR would be my first choice. If it was total break down like armagedon SHTF then like I said earlier, it dont matter what we carry cause were all gonna be fightin each other.
So, to summise grab the rifle/handgun combo that you have the most time with and bulk up on the ammo for that combo with all the support equipment.
Oh yeah, and dont forget to pray.

packnrat
09-08-2008, 5:30 AM
as for a shtf setup i have a m1carbine and a 1911 reqady to go with plenty of ammo for both.
both easy and light to work with both can and will take down a "normal" sized target...aka zombies.:eek:
easy on target and will hit what i am aiming at.

some talk down the m1 carbine easy to fit into a pack if needed to carry aways, and it can do a small deer no problem.:rolleyes:

yea there are others one can use..i even have many choices but set up this way...for now.

no photos...no camera


:TFH:

.

eccvets
09-08-2008, 7:39 AM
If I could have any handgun, I'd pick as my first choice a FN 5-7 with few 30 round mags and as a second, a glock 34 with a few 33round mags. Nothing says get the F away from me like 30+ rounds of bang bangs comming your way out of very accurate and reliable guns!

If I could have bigger guns, I'd pick in increasing order a FN P90, FN M249, 1919a 50 cal. (b*tchs come!) eh, the 1919a is gonna be hard to carry around to be honest but it would make for good home security against the hords of baddies

NotSoFast
09-08-2008, 8:54 PM
Well, seeing how this is the Handgun forum, I would have to choose my G17 since that is what I have most confidence in and have the most ammunition for.

And taking a hint from the soldiers in Iraq, something in .222. For me that means my Mini-14.

chsk9
09-08-2008, 11:36 PM
I have mixed thoughts on this subject. A ruger .22 with 4 extra magazines and 5 boxes of ammo is light and I can shoot it well enough to keep you ducking at 75+ yards. I don't believe anyone thats shot with a .22 is going
to want to do anything but get help. That said there is a lot to be said for a medium sized 9mm (browning hi-power) with a few 30 round mags for back up would work too.