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Sleepy1988
10-29-2007, 1:55 PM
I was looking at the Kasler list of weapons and I'm wondering is it legal to build a gun on a lower receiver manufactured by any of the companies with banned models? For instance, RRA Car A2 and Car A4 Flattop are both banned, but I'm assuming they both use the same RRA lower. So does that make the lower illegal, or does it make the upper illegal, or is it that only that lower and that upper together are illegal?

MonsterMan
10-29-2007, 1:58 PM
The lower receiver is what is regulated. If the name on the receiver is the same as the make and model name on the banned list, it is a no go. There are plenty of off list brands to choose from.

You can buy upper receivers that are from banned rifles and use them on your off list lower receivers.

Hope that helps.

bwiese
10-29-2007, 2:02 PM
RRA LAR15 is the identifiable model on the lower.

Just for safety's sake, I probably wouldn't put an RRA A2 upper on an RRA LAR-15 lower that resulted in creation of an "RRA Standard A2 rifle" (or whatever the banned "named" RRA configurations are) in the Kasler list.

However, in the real world this is probably difficult to identify by cop or DA investigator, etc. They're gonna see "Rock River Arms LAR-15", period, on the receiver and call it a day.

An argument can readily be made that an RRA LAR-15 lower plus an RRA upper that results in an apparently banned configuration (say, "RRA Standard A2 rifle" or whatever the hell is on the list) is really a different "parts gun" distinctly differing from the banned one in terms of RRA warranty coverage and payment of Fed excise tax. RRA is likely to treat 'parts guns' differently than guns sold as complete, excise-tax-paid entities and this would be enough to differentiate a 'model' - RRA could readily say "RRA Standard A2 rifle" is a factory gun, and (via their tax logs) other entities were not and therefor are separably identifiable.

Sleepy1988
10-29-2007, 6:59 PM
RRA LAR15 is the identifiable model on the lower.

Just for safety's sake, I probably wouldn't put an RRA A2 upper on an RRA LAR-15 lower that resulted in creation of an "RRA Standard A2 rifle" (or whatever the banned "named" RRA configurations are) in the Kasler list.

However, in the real world this is probably difficult to identify by cop or DA investigator, etc. They're gonna see "Rock River Arms LAR-15", period, on the receiver and call it a day.

An argument can readily be made that an RRA LAR-15 lower plus an RRA upper that results in an apparently banned configuration (say, "RRA Standard A2 rifle" or whatever the hell is on the list) is really a different "parts gun" distinctly differing from the banned one in terms of RRA warranty coverage and payment of Fed excise tax. RRA is likely to treat 'parts guns' differently than guns sold as complete, excise-tax-paid entities and this would be enough to differentiate a 'model' - RRA could readily say "RRA Standard A2 rifle" is a factory gun, and (via their tax logs) other entities were not and therefor are separably identifiable.


So by this logic ANY of the models of (I'm assuming) complete rifles listed ban the lower receiver used with that model? If this is the case does that mean if there is a company that makes two separate models of lowers and one was used on a banned rifle it would be banned but not the other?

I know this is really a moot point since the DOJ gave up the responsibility to list new receivers, but I'm curious.

bwiese
10-29-2007, 7:21 PM
So by this logic ANY of the models of (I'm assuming) complete rifles listed ban the lower receiver used with that model?

If this is the case does that mean if there is a company that makes two separate models of lowers and one was used on a banned rifle it would be banned but not the other?

No no no!

RRA LAR15 is not a banned gun/receiver PERIOD.

This receiver is used in a variety of Kasler-banned RRA guns, though (RRA "Car A2", RRA "Car A4 Flattop", RRA "LE Tactical Carbine", "NM A2 - DCM Legal", RRA "Standard A-2", and RRA "Standard A-4 Flattop"

These particular specific gun models (not the LAR15!) could indeed be considered banned. If you got an RRA "Std A4 Flattop" model it would have an (unlisted) LAR15 receiver - that is, the combo of LAR15 lower and this particular RRA upper could be regarded as banned.

However, putting an identical flattop AR Bushmaster upper would not be banned (provided SB23 features observed).

The Kasler list was drafted very poorly and some areas are probably pretty wild & woolly by Harrott standards.

If I had an RRA LAR15 lower, I myself would not put an RRA upper on it that resulted in a configuration identical to the above (even with SB23 features ban observed) since that's a bit close. However, this is

(1) fairly defendable, as these RRA models refer to factory guns and not homebuilt models from RRA parts, and

(2) nobody's gonna even figure this out and try to determine which upper is on the lower - anyone enquiring will just look at the LAR15 lower being off-list and call it a day. I doubt if any DA investigator, cop, etc. will know who makes an upper since 97% of them are unmarked except for forging logo.

Sleepy1988
10-29-2007, 8:24 PM
So which lowers are banned then?

bwiese
10-29-2007, 11:59 PM
So which lowers are banned then?

For ARs, "Colt AR-15" and all on the so-called Kasler list, 11 CCR 5499.

RRA has no banned *lowers*, only certain complete firearms that may or may not even be in production anymore or renamed.

Sleepy1988
10-30-2007, 5:37 PM
So in the case off RRA and other companies without banned lowers the AR is only illegal if you buy the complete banned model but if you bought the a RRA lower and the upper that's on the banned model and separately and then put them together it's a gray area?

AKman
10-30-2007, 6:03 PM
If you go to the RRA website and look at the .223 LAR-15 rifle models that they offer you will see the same names that are CA listed AWs. As noted by bwise, the LAR-15 is not a listed lower, but I wouldn't even consider taking a free LAR-15 lower and upper combination with a listed name (e.g. Standard A2 upper). Compare the listed AWs and the following website:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/Catlist.cfm?Category=01

Why even take a chance. If you avoid all listed names for lowers (the regulated part), its a very long stretch to say you have a listed AW. Besides, there are so many fine non-listed makes and models (Noveske, POF, S&W, Stag) to choose from, why take a chance.