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View Full Version : Hassled at Burro Canyon about AWs


enchantor
10-29-2007, 2:25 PM
Account compromised at the time of this post

Timberwolf
10-29-2007, 2:29 PM
Why did you stow the weapon? If you are legal you have nothing to hide.

CavTrooper
10-29-2007, 2:29 PM
Sell your rifle.
If youre worried about getting in trouble, youll never have fun with it.
Either that or know you are right and why and dont be afraid to tell everyone.
If you get arrested for it, at least youll have a story to tell!

FortCourageArmory
10-29-2007, 2:31 PM
Boys, those are easy answers when the consequences don't personally affect you. I think he did just fine. Sounds like the sheriffs were on a fishing expedition. Why throw chum in the water and attract sharks.

BONECUTTER
10-29-2007, 2:42 PM
Boys, those are easy answers when the consequences don't personally affect you. I think he did just fine.

I agree. If someone doesn't feel comfortable explaining the legalities of a CA legal OLL they shouldn't have to.

I will say to the Sheriff's defense, driving past someone who has a AW looking rifle and then having them go hide it imediately in there car can be suspicious looking. They might already know about OLL's and figured he had a illegal setup and thats why it was stowed away. Hence the grilling.

MonsterMan
10-29-2007, 2:51 PM
What if it were someone shooting legally registered AW's? Was it worth the drive up there just because they got a "tip"?

I think they need more to do. :rolleyes:

The fact is, it is still somewhat early in the CA OLL movement. In time, more Leo's will know about them and we will here less about this kind of activity. But until then, it could happen to any of us. We know that they are legal and we can explain all we want to them, but if they have any doubts, they can arrest you and let the DA's figure it out. Look at what happened to Corwin.

I think the OP handled it just fine. I say shoot with confidence and know the law saw when you are approached, you can confidently explain yourself. We shouldn't hide away and not shoot them. The more we shoot them, the more people that don't know about them see them and the more OLL's that will sell because more will want them. BRD will continue to spread. :D

Liberty1
10-29-2007, 2:57 PM
This incident should be documented through a PRA on the dispatched call for service. Do you have the deputies' names? What was the time of the "appearance" of the Deputies at the range?.

The Dept. should be contacted in a positive way to help explain the lawfulness of OLLs and how to recognize the differences from AWs. Perhaps a educational package of OLL info. from TMLLP to that department is in order. This non-event should be responded to by putting us on the offensive before rather then the defensive after a false arrest.

JOEKILLA
10-29-2007, 2:58 PM
What is going on at Burro? Usually rent a private range there with no hassle.

I agree with Liberty1, an educational package from TMLLP is a great idea. I'll chip in to the cost of having them type one up.

AJAX22
10-29-2007, 3:39 PM
This incident should be documented through a PRA on the dispatched call for service. Do you have the deputies Names? What was the time of the "appearance" of the Deputies at the range?.

The Dept. should be contacted in a positive way to help explain the lawfulness of OLLs and how to recognize the differences from AWs. Perhaps a educational package of OLL info. from TMLLP to that department is in order. This non-event should be responded to thus putting us on the offensive before rather then the defensive after a false arrest.

This is actually a really good idea and an excelent way to respond to "looks like an AW" incidets.

Bizcuits
10-29-2007, 4:06 PM
This incident should be documented through a PRA on the dispatched call for service. Do you have the deputies Names? What was the time of the "appearance" of the Deputies at the range?.

The Dept. should be contacted in a positive way to help explain the lawfulness of OLLs and how to recognize the differences from AWs. Perhaps a educational package of OLL info. from TMLLP to that department is in order. This non-event should be responded to thus putting us on the offensive before rather then the defensive after a false arrest.

They might not of received a call. Enchantor stated, the deputies originally drove by the area on their way to another range.

It is very possible someone at the range sparked the deputies interest in enchantors gathering. The deputies, then elected to be pro-active and inspect the area.

If you don't have their names, just try to log the correct time, as GPS will show who was there if they look into it. I think Liberty has a good idea.

Although if they didn't actually see your OLL and were simply doing a pro-active check for illegal arms, you may completely surprise them with the paper work. Just the same though, I say call and send the package. Just tell them you noticed deputies checking for AWs and you wanted to be sure they were aware of OLL's not being AW's.

hoozaru
10-29-2007, 4:08 PM
come on this is burro we are talking about.
there are usually at least 4 or 5 OLL rilfes / registered AW on the public lanes all the time, 3 round burst. That bridge area is like LEO reserved parking lot.
This whoever Sheriff has no excuse to be ignorant and rude.

5150-417
10-29-2007, 4:15 PM
I think they should make a law that informs the shooters at the range that the sheriff's department is going to be checking for illegal firearms on certain dates. They inform drunk drivers where the dui checkpoint are at, they should inform us. It's not that i have any illegal firearms I just wouldn't want to go through the hassle.

Mute
10-29-2007, 4:21 PM
This is unacceptable. Looks alone can not dictate whether a firearm is an illegal AW. A cursory glance certainly isn't going show whether a gun is a registered or unregistered AW. I would have at the very least made a note of their names and badge numbers and get a clarification as to what led to them even coming over to ask questions.

I try to be law-abiding and cooperative, but I don't like being treated like a lawbreaker (whether intentionally or through ignorance) and I don't think any other law-abiding citizen should either.

tyrist
10-29-2007, 4:44 PM
No LEO worth anything is going to affect a felony arrest of an armed suspect alone. This story sounds completely bogus.

Ford8N
10-29-2007, 5:11 PM
No LEO worth anything is going to affect a felony arrest of an armed suspect alone. This story sounds completely bogus.

Reread the original post.

enchantor
10-29-2007, 5:19 PM
******

POINTMANDDT
10-29-2007, 5:20 PM
This post gets me thinking, what are some of the documents or paperwork you could show the LEO to convince them your target rifle is not a AW?

enchantor
10-29-2007, 5:23 PM
***

Ford8N
10-29-2007, 5:33 PM
There should be some signed educational material of some sort we should be able to present to an officer in a situation like this. Something from a reputable source LEOs would trust and believe. I think that would help if at all possible. By the way to clear things up, I was perfectly happy with the cops being on their way, I didn't really feel like trying to get their names or anything. I was just happy to be left alone again.


You did good. The best way for law abiding shooters to feel at ease around LEO's would be for the DOJ to officially tell the LEO's that OLL are legal! That hasn't happened yet for some reason.:confused:

I wouldn't waste my time trying to explain the law about OLL to a LEO. The LEO would say "tell it to the judge". Major PITA.

M. Sage
10-29-2007, 6:25 PM
This is unacceptable. Looks alone can not dictate whether a firearm is an illegal AW.

Of course they can, that's how the entire law was written: looks.

Where have you been? :p

Piper
10-29-2007, 6:49 PM
I was just wondering, where is Burro Canyon?

After you put your OLL away, what firearms did you still have out?

I wonder what they would have done if you would have showed them your OLL.

RudyN
10-29-2007, 7:26 PM
It wouldn't suprise me that someone who was there and didn't know what an OLL was probably called it in. Hasn't happened to my in Silicon Valley, but I wouldn't be suprised if it did.

hoozaru
10-29-2007, 7:58 PM
I believe Bwiese made a Memo on OLL AR/AK last year, not sure what the link is. Just made a paper copy of that, and highlighted some keypoints, in case I run into some ignorant rookie cop.

proraptor
10-29-2007, 8:13 PM
I was there with enchantor and think we handled the situation just fine....The cops acted like lifeless robots though....Sounds like they memorized the lines of BS they fed our ears....Ill bet they went around to everyone saying the same lines trying to get people to self incriminate...

hoozaru
10-29-2007, 8:24 PM
another thing, calgunner shooting OLL in burro on sundays, and I wasn't invited!!!! :mad:

Gator Monroe
10-29-2007, 8:30 PM
I was there with enchantor and think we handled the situation just fine....The cops acted like lifeless robots though....Sounds like they memorized the lines of BS they fed our ears....Ill bet they went around to everyone saying the same lines trying to get people to self incriminate...

LEOBOTS ? :eek:

Liberty1
10-29-2007, 9:41 PM
Some of us have red on one side and blue on the other!

Carry this flyer: http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaRifles.pdf

There should be some signed educational material of some sort we should be able to present to an officer in a situation like this. Something from a reputable source LEOs would trust and believe.

What do you want? DOJ to follow their mandate?

RudyN
10-29-2007, 9:52 PM
I saw the OLL flyer and was wondering if it should be updated to include the U15 stock or is that so obvious that it shouldn't be a problem?

Kestryll
10-29-2007, 10:11 PM
If the Deputies knew about OLLs and then made an issue of it they are at fault but we don't know that. We do know the DOJ is intentionally withholding this from the local LEOs however.
At this point this looks like yet another example of DOJ hassle through omission by remote control.

ghettoshecky
10-29-2007, 10:12 PM
well given the fact that this is the SAME law enforcement agency that arrested Matt Corwin, I am definitely more wary in LA county. I used to just break down my whole OLL rifle when I drove up to Burro just in case I am pulled over (of all the traffic tickets ALL of them were in LA county even though I mainly live in SD). Funny thing is when I go up to Burro, there seems to be no shortage of OLL with some sort of mag-lock. One time I went up, there was a guy who had three OLL's himself and he helped me put back together one of my OLL. Nice guy, I should've asked if he is a Calgunner too.

Pryde
10-29-2007, 11:15 PM
You can probably rack this up to the fact that there are lots of people who go up to burro with illegally configured rifles. Almost every time I go up there I meet people (usually young mexican thug types or asian kids) with OLL rifles with no maglocks and 30 round mags. If they (sheriff) weren't actually arresting somebody every now and then I don't see why they would bother harassing people on the rifle range.

Yea, Yea I know people are gonna say "they could be reg'd AW". But I am sure this is not the case, seeing how many of them are young, have stag/doublestar/mega, etc lowers that did not exist pre-2000 (I'm not 100% sure about this). And the fact that many of them will openly admit to you that they are offlist and "nobody at burro cares".

milsurpshooter
10-29-2007, 11:35 PM
here is what i did. i printed the entire DOJ cailfornia gun laws and carry them around with me when i shoot. then when leo's give you crap then you politely ask them to state the law you are breaking. if he is lying then you take out the 40 or so pages and ask him to look it up.

duenor
10-29-2007, 11:55 PM
you did well. i'm actually kinda upset that you got harassed like that. BCR has for many years been a kind of refuge for me from the regular world. I believe in being legal - but we shouldn't be subjected to demands that we attest as such.

xenophobe
10-30-2007, 5:25 PM
If someone doesn't feel comfortable explaining the legalities of a CA legal OLL they shouldn't own them.

I fixed it for you.

odysseus
10-30-2007, 5:46 PM
One thing I would consider for the monsterman types, is that I like to bring another obvious rifle with me usually, which is the M1A. If ever queried on the legality of OLL the example of the well known legal M1A is right in their face, a semi-auto, magazine fed, non pistol gripped rifle with a compensator on it. Standing next to each other, it's pretty obvious the legality of a non-listed AR-15.

It is just that the DOJ is not doing enough to educate LE on the off-list issue, even though we pay their wages and bills.

God Bless The Mauser
10-30-2007, 8:32 PM
I don't have to worry about my OLL AK since I have my own range at my house and never go to public ranges. The only time I shot at a public range was when I rented a Glock 17 at The Range in Grass Valley.

artherd
10-30-2007, 8:48 PM
I've Been There, Done That long before and then again after the OLL phonomena.

I was hassled by SO for my Barrett M82-A1CAL, a perfectly legal long-rifle that happens to look way scary. After 20min of careful dialouge, and a few calls back to his seargent, plus a quick "Just stop and think for a second. If I have the kind of money to drop $10k on a TOY, do you really think I'd be foolish enough not to vet said toy's legality with my very very good attorney? Now just how stupid do you think I am?"

Addax
10-30-2007, 10:22 PM
Last time I went up to Burro, both my cousin and I had at least 10 OLL rifles between us that we took out to zero in, test fire etc.

The guy right next to us was a Sheriff (off duty) shooting his 2 AR OLL's and his registered AR15 AW..

Once I whipped out one of my FAL rifles, he was all over us wanting to shoot her (which I let him) and he was all giddy and happy to shoot a FAL. I told him how to obtain one or have one built (California Compliant, and Off List), and he thanked us and went home soon after.

I think you ran into some over zealous Sheriff Deputies who were on the hunt for something or someone, or maybe they were working on what they thought was a legitimate tip?

Bottom line is if you are unsure or insecure about having an Off List AR or OLL Rifle, and you cannot truly explain the law or explain how a OLL rifle is legal, then don't go out to the range until you have a firm understanding of how to explain the Off List Rifle, Magazine Locks or Monster man Grips and how you have a California Compliant Rifle etc.

LEO's are really good guys. You can't blame them for being suspicious, that is a part of their job to be suspicious and on guard, looking for something wrong...

LEO's do need help to be brought up to speed on everything that is going on.

I used to live right down the road from Burro (15 minutes) and I was up there allot. Also, Gunrunners in Duarte down the mountain from Burro, and carries a whole bunch of OLL AR Lowers, rifles and OLL Ak rifles etc. and the Sheriffs are in there all the time... AT least 3-4 times per week, buying stuff, asking questions, talking to the folks that work there.

Its all about having fun, but at the same time you have to do your due diligence to be legal, safe and Compliant, so you don't run into any trouble.

Regards,
Addax

proraptor
10-31-2007, 10:24 AM
believe me I know how to explain to the officers about the oll situation.....

I'm guessing you never heard of my ugly christmas sweater party incident

ibanezfoo
10-31-2007, 2:47 PM
Maybe the cops just wanted tips on how to get some of those rifles for themselves....? Maybe they thought you were being jerks for not hooking them up. :)

-Bryan

Draven
11-03-2007, 10:17 PM
Well, I'd be concerned about this because Burro Canyon, IIRC, is covered by the Temple City office, which covers my home as well.

Piper
11-04-2007, 9:45 AM
So, Burro Canyon is in L.A. county. I get it now. It's no wonder people have trouble there. You won't see me there.

Diamond1
11-11-2007, 8:48 AM
I must be too paranoid, but I have both a MMGrip and a BB on my OLL when I go to BC.

MrLogan
11-11-2007, 9:42 AM
I was just there yesterday, all day, at a private range. I had three OLL rifles out there, blasting away. No troubles for me.

Sorry it had to happen to you guys. :(

MT1
12-05-2007, 2:45 PM
I agree with Liberty1, an educational package from TMLLP is a great idea. I'll chip in to the cost of having them type one up.

That would be great - I don't take mine to public ranges, luckily I shoot with several others at a private ranch with 800m capability, pistol range and speed course.

n6nvr
08-05-2008, 10:07 PM
So, Burro Canyon is in L.A. county. I get it now. It's no wonder people have trouble there. You won't see me there.

Hiding things when the police are near usually tweaks their curiosity. That's what we pay them for. We used to have group shoots with a bunch of the Arfcom guys. Nobody ever raised an eyebrow, other than other shooters.

If it's a legal gun, keep it out. If it isn't then taking it out is YOUR problem.


http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member5157.png (http://militarysignatures.com)

caduckgunner
08-05-2008, 10:18 PM
Holy old post :eek:

retired
08-05-2008, 10:30 PM
Burro Cyn, being off of East Fork Rd., is actually handled by San Dimas Station unless things have changed and I don't believe they have. I used to work that car occasionally in the late 90s.

ETA: I should have mentioned San Dimas is LASD, since people out of the area (especially N. Cal.) might not know. Sorry about that.

GMONEY
08-05-2008, 10:35 PM
I was at a So Cal range last week and this guy just whipped out an Armalite listed AR with all the evil features... I really don't think some people know the law and are risking so much by not being informed. He was out of state and didn't really seem to care...

NiteQwill
08-05-2008, 10:42 PM
I was at a So Cal range last week and this guy just whipped out an Armalite listed AR with all the evil features... I really don't think some people know the law and are risking so much by not being informed. He was out of state and didn't really seem to care...
Which range? Did it happen to be in Oceanside?

jumbopanda
08-05-2008, 10:51 PM
Hiding things when the police are near usually tweaks their curiosity. That's what we pay them for. We used to have group shoots with a bunch of the Arfcom guys. Nobody ever raised an eyebrow, other than other shooters.

If it's a legal gun, keep it out. If it isn't then taking it out is YOUR problem.


http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member5157.png (http://militarysignatures.com)

Epic necro post.

GMONEY
08-06-2008, 10:34 AM
Which range? Did it happen to be in Oceanside?

Not Oceanside - Orange County... Don't really want to give up the range...

timitzer
08-08-2008, 3:26 AM
I am a police officer for Los Angeles. I was at a private range. The Sherrif came up to me and said, "The ATF was on the way for a wepons inspection? I did not tell them I am LAPD. After they questioned me and started to do an illegal search, I let them see all my weapons. Of course nothing was illegal. Afterwards, I obtained their info and reported them to the LA Count Sherrifs office. I think we have a case of an over zealot cheif.
I do want to tell you, if you have illegal weapons and are caught with them, the penalties and fines are very hefty. You too will loose all your guns and not be able to buy anymore. It's really not worth it. The officers do have to have probable cause oprior to a search.

Ballistic043
08-08-2008, 7:03 AM
i was 'confronted' one time by a few LEO's in an SUV. but nothing really came of it

i had a spikes tactical fake can on my AR and shooting XM193, which put out quite a loud crack. some of the guys from 3C came over and parked behind us. after a few minutes, I hear over the loud speaker : "i was just wondering what kind of rifle is that? its freaking loud"

. so i safetied the rifle and approached the car-not wanting to yell across the range back to them. i told them it was a fixed magazine off list california compliant rifle and they had a confused look on their face. so i just said its an AR without a muzzle brake.

as they smiled & nodded, i offered to load a magazine and let them try it. "if you guys want, ive got alot of extra ammo here if you want to try it". "That's ok" he says, we were just on the way out. well cya later" they waved & drove off..

they were pretty non-chalant about the whole thing. i was shooting my evil AR that day with all the goodies on it. including bullet button & dropping mags

this is not to suggest you will never be harassed just because you 'explain yourself'. i dont have to mention what happened to me or matt last year with our OLL's that no amount of explaining could fix. so, tom i think your statement is sort of out of line. many of us can 'explain' ourselves but that doesnt mean we wont get arrested. eric could have just as easily gotten the treatment

deleted by PC police
08-08-2008, 7:16 AM
Am I missing something?? The Harrot decision was over 2 years ago. Is there no way to force the DOJ to comply and re-write the assault weapons manual? Are they above the law???

haodoken
08-08-2008, 9:01 AM
You can probably rack this up to the fact that there are lots of people who go up to burro with illegally configured rifles. Almost every time I go up there I meet people (usually young mexican thug types or asian kids) with OLL rifles with no maglocks and 30 round mags. If they (sheriff) weren't actually arresting somebody every now and then I don't see why they would bother harassing people on the rifle range.

Yea, Yea I know people are gonna say "they could be reg'd AW". But I am sure this is not the case, seeing how many of them are young, have stag/doublestar/mega, etc lowers that did not exist pre-2000 (I'm not 100% sure about this). And the fact that many of them will openly admit to you that they are offlist and "nobody at burro cares".

So, Illegally configured OLL offenders are "usually" mexicans or asians. I don't think you intended to make a somewhat inappropriate generalization, I was just illustrating how easily it could have been taken as that. A better choice of words would be "usually thug types or kids". Just My $ 0.02. But if you were trying to be prejudical, then my mistake.:confused:

Sniper3142
08-08-2008, 6:02 PM
I was at a So Cal range last week and this guy just whipped out an Armalite listed AR with all the evil features... I really don't think some people know the law and are risking so much by not being informed. He was out of state and didn't really seem to care...

Was it the Los Angeles range in L.A. or On Target in the OC?

If so, that might have been me with my registered Armalite rifle.

Don't assume you know anything about anyone. Remember the saying... better to be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Have a nice day.

1919_4_ME
08-08-2008, 6:36 PM
You guys should have typed up flyers that explain the OLL thingy.This way a nervous Noob can simply hand it to an LEO when approached.Then the LEO will read it and it will bascially explain everything for them.This will probably help calms the nerves on both parties and if they have any questions they can call the OLL hotline.:chris:

Ballistic043
08-08-2008, 7:09 PM
i try to hand out OLL memorandums/flowcharts to anyone that will take them. ive already given a few to some LEO friends, as well as some RO's and OLL owners with.. ahem.. questionable builds

we should all start handing them out whenever its appropriate. at the range, to fellow LEO friends or family, etc. it could mean the difference between being arrested and being let go for someone. and even if thats just one person, thats a huge difference

KDOFisch
08-08-2008, 9:45 PM
You guys should have typed up flyers that explain the OLL thingy.This way a nervous Noob can simply hand it to an LEO when approached.Then the LEO will read it and it will bascially explain everything for them.This will probably help calms the nerves on both parties and if they have any questions they can call the OLL hotline.:chris:

The flyers help, but basically anything without a DOJ letterhead ain't worth squat. Every single word written on any flyer I've seen is legit and fine legal legwork, but without an official opinion, it's only a civilian stating a 'legal fact in their interpretation' (or to that effect) and it's not some nicely printed manual issued to LEOs everywhere. If you were a LEO, who would you believe? (Unless you knew about OLLs to begin with)

Now, having said that, let be take a step back and say that efforts from CGF and its members, along with responsible gunowners everywhere, and even retail spaces like Ammo Bros giving OLL exposure in major cities have all contributed in the last 31 months to furthering gun rights for people like us in CA. It's a multi-faceted effort from all of us that have exposed OLLs to CA, and especially Bill and Gene who started it all.

But I agree nonetheless with 8TS65KJ- we should hand out flyers wherever we can to further the knowledge that, yes, these rifles are legit.

JSAUCE
05-30-2009, 11:29 AM
Some of us have red on one side and blue on the other!

Carry this flyer: http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaRifles.pdf



What do you want? DOJ to follow their mandate?

Awsome thread... Thanks for the info

Jpach
05-30-2009, 12:15 PM
The fact is, it is still somewhat early in the CA OLL movement. In time, more Leo's will know about them and we will here less about this kind of activity. But until then, it could happen to any of us. We know that they are legal and we can explain all we want to them, but if they have any doubts, they can arrest you and let the DA's figure it out. Look at what happened to Corwin.


You are absolutely right. Even though us calgunners have known about OLLs for quite some time now, many still have no clue. I cant imagine whats going to happen when the AW ban and hi-cap laws get swatted down. I bet many people will be popped for having AWs when there is no longer such thing as an AW

bwiese
05-30-2009, 1:13 PM
You are absolutely right. Even though us calgunners have known about OLLs for quite some time now, many still have no clue. I cant imagine whats going to happen when the AW ban and hi-cap laws get swatted down. I bet many people will be popped for having AWs when there is no longer such thing as an AW

We can't wait to jam up the courts with situations like that ;)

5968
05-30-2009, 4:32 PM
Why did you stow the weapon? If you are legal you have nothing to hide.

Just because he has nothing to hide, doesn't mean he doesn't have a reason to worry.

If you are worried about possibly getting arrested, don't take it out or sell it.

Fate
05-30-2009, 8:48 PM
Hahaha..holy necropost. Rereading this is a trip down memory lane. OLL ownership and "comfort level" at the range have come leagues and miles since 2007.

tombinghamthegreat
05-31-2009, 2:25 AM
Sounds like the cops were fishing to see how you acted to that claim.

Liberty1
05-31-2009, 3:02 AM
been here how long and I still don't know how to post pictures

sreiter
05-31-2009, 9:20 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24520&d=1243764122

HotRails
05-31-2009, 9:25 AM
Hahaha..holy necropost. Rereading this is a trip down memory lane. OLL ownership and "comfort level" at the range have come leagues and miles since 2007.

Isnt it great to see how much progress has been made. Its snowballing.. :D

A324
05-31-2009, 10:21 AM
2 weeks.....

Jpach
05-31-2009, 5:53 PM
We can't wait to jam up the courts with situations like that ;)

Ahh Bweise, statements like that give me the biggest, blackest, most evil Assault Boner in all of CA (without a BB) :50:

JDay
05-31-2009, 6:44 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/Durandal49/Thinglys/New/FESS/Necropost.jpg?t=1243820680

5968
06-01-2009, 4:35 AM
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/5968/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

FastFinger
06-01-2009, 8:53 AM
http://i43.tinypic.com/iyhbsw.jpg

Sniper3142
06-01-2009, 10:56 AM
http://crolack.com/pics/NecroPost.jpg

:(