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View Full Version : To use the slide release or not to use the slide release.. that is the question


Shane916
10-28-2007, 10:44 AM
Been pondering this lately.

To use the slide release or not. Some say use the release.. others say don't use it..

I have read pulling back the slide and not using the release allows a little more room to chamber the round..

I'm also aware many handguns lack a slide release thus requiring the slide to be pulled back for chambering..

Any thoughts or experience on this?

Shane916
10-28-2007, 10:53 AM
isn't it properly called a slide stop?

Either or

kermit315
10-28-2007, 10:55 AM
I have a P89 and sometimes I use the release and sometimes I just pull back the slide and let it release. no real rhyme or reason to it, just kinda random.

Kruzr
10-28-2007, 11:46 AM
My guns have slide stops. I use them to lock open the slide when a magazine isn't in the gun. If I want to chamber a round, I pull the slide all the way back, just like it would be in it's normal cycle, and let it go............slingshot.

johnny_22
10-28-2007, 11:56 AM
Pistols: NEVER; multiple instructors beat that into me.

Ruger PC9: jams unless I use the release/stop

Fjold
10-28-2007, 11:58 AM
i call it a slide stop because after the last round is fired it stops the slide from going forward.that is the first function of it.

The slide stop is the tab that locks into the slide to stop it from going forward. The little lever that you operate to let the slide go forward is the slide release.

The SoCal Gunner
10-28-2007, 12:43 PM
On most of my handguns yes. On my Glock 36 hell no just because I can't. For some reason, that slide stop is damned hard to press down. When my gf bought the gun for me she had to run through the safe handling test and she couldn't press the slide stop down. The guys let her pull the slide back instead. When she gave it the as a gift to me I couldn't even press it down so I wonder if any of the salesmen even tried to do it themselves.

STAGE 2
10-28-2007, 1:21 PM
Here's the deal. Different pistols are different so your mileage may vary.

I have in my hand an army manual for the 1911 dated 1941 (thanks grandpa). The piece which you can depress to release the slide is in fact correctly called a slide release. Like I said, other pistols sich as sigs call it a slide stop, but they are free to call their parts what they wish.

Continuing on, the manual states that to reload the pistol when shot to empty, the operator is to depress the magazine release, either let it drop free or pull out with the hand if stuck, insert a new magazine and then depress the slide release to bring the gun into battery.

Thats the straight dope. The primary reason for this is because the 1911 was designed and adopted when we still had a mounted cavalry. One handed operation was something that was necessary.

Thus, anyone who tells you that on a 1911 that piece shouldn't be called a slide release and shouldnt be used isn't a student of history, and probably shouldn't be relied upon for much else.


As far as other pistols go, I also don't see any reason not to use the slide release when reloading. No one has ever presented any evidence to support the "fine motor function" argument, and logically it doesn't hold water. Furthermore, using the slide release is considerably faster. Granted there are some pistols that don't have external releases. If you carry one of these, then it goes without saying that you should practice slingshotting. However that is really a tangent to what we are talking about here.

It should be noted that I am a firm believer in practicing tap, rack, bang. However clearing malfunctions and reloading are two different things.

At the end of the day if you feel comfortable slingshotting then do that. However if you feel comfortable using the slide release then do that and don't let any commando tell you different.

randy
10-28-2007, 4:38 PM
In the United States it's a slide release. Overseas it's a slide stop.

The releases on American guns are large and easier to hit with your thumb or finger. The releases on Euro guns are smaller and they slingshot them.

There have been some changes in the last few years but that's basicly it.

The Glock 34 and 35 have a larger slide stop for the american market those guns are there competition guns and designed to just fit the "box". Also the GSR Sigs have a big protrusion on their slide stop. I'm sure there are others.

Under stress the fine motor skills go away quickly so the slingshot is being used more and more.

What Just Happened?
10-28-2007, 6:37 PM
I use the slide release, but have shown others to use either method. But I do believe that they've also used the slide release.

Pepper
10-28-2007, 6:46 PM
I used to use the stop, until I heard from some instructors/shops that after repeated use, the metal wears on the corner after some time making the stop not as secure. Ever rent a gun and you don't have to press the stop down as hard? I think that's a decent reason not to use the stop IMO.

NeoWeird
10-28-2007, 7:30 PM
On hardened steel, like a slide release/stop, it is no different than your hammer pivoting off the sear. That means that even with a low cap pistol ike a 1911 you will need t replace your hammer and/or sear roughly 7 times before ever replacing the slide or slide release/stop once and chances are you'd have to have the hole for the slide stop/release rebored and sleeved and the railes on the frame and slide would be worn loose before that happened. Needless to say, drop the slide by slide release/stop all you want - after all it's like a $15 part anyways.

As for the topic at hand, of course I use it, that's what it's there for. The only time I ever jerk the slide back is at ranges where it's dark and I like to see the slide fully opened as I pull the slide back to make sure the magazine is fully inserted (after giving it a firm rap on the floor plate of course). Other than that there is no way faster or easier than just letting your thumb drop naturally onto that lever and send your gun home into battery.

The ONLY time I don't recommend it, or do it, is on most rimfire pistols that have slides. They usually use softer or less dense metals for the slides to get proper cycling with the lower power cartridges and it wears easily. The original P22s had this problem but the one I own has a steel post set in the slide where it contacts the slide stop to prevent excesive slide wear. It might also be a problem with other rounds, like .25 auto and the likes, but I have no experince with those to make a statement as to whether they are or are not a problem.

So short answer is: If it's steel on steel contact - abso-friggin-lutely. If it's something else on something else then probably not a good idea.

surprised
10-28-2007, 7:43 PM
What I had heard - and I don't remember where - is that if you are chambering a round from the magazine you can either use the slide release or rack the slide. If the magazine is emtpy, then you should rack the slide only.

NeoWeird
10-28-2007, 7:50 PM
What I had heard - and I don't remember where - is that if you are chambering a round from the magazine you can either use the slide release or rack the slide. If the magazine is emtpy, then you should rack the slide only.

When chambering on an empty chamber you should do either or, but restrict the imapct force of the slide by holding it and dropping it slowly. When dropping on an empty chamber it doesn't matter how the slide gets home, just as long as it doesn't slam home. Slamming home can peen the chamer, or more commonly on semi-auto pistols, the barrel hood and can damage your chamber or ruin your headspace.

If it's going home on an empty chamber it doesn't matter how it gets home as long as it doesn't SLAM home.

Pugster
10-28-2007, 8:36 PM
I never use the slide stop on my Glock 17; I like pulling back the slide back and letting it slingshot into battery. I never use it since I have heard using the stop too much wears out the thin/stamped slide release lever.

USMC_2651_E5
10-28-2007, 8:40 PM
I dont use the slide stop/release because I train the way I fight (or hope to fight). What I have been taught is that in high stress situations, you do what you have trained to do. Furthermore, pressing the release requires fine motor skills--the ones that tend not to work when in high stress situations--and grasping the slide over the top and pulling it rearward with a full hand hold requires only gross motor skills.

NeoWeird
10-28-2007, 9:04 PM
I dont use the slide stop/release because I train the way I fight (or hope to fight). What I have been taught is that in high stress situations, you do what you have trained to do. Furthermore, pressing the release requires fine motor skills--the ones that tend not to work when in high stress situations--and grasping the slide over the top and pulling it rearward with a full hand hold requires only gross motor skills.

The only problem with that logic is what happens when your secondary hand becomes inoperable or is occupied doing something else?

USMC_2651_E5
10-28-2007, 9:09 PM
rack it against your boot or sam brown

STAGE 2
10-28-2007, 9:48 PM
Furthermore, pressing the release requires fine motor skills--the ones that tend not to work when in high stress situations--and grasping the slide over the top and pulling it rearward with a full hand hold requires only gross motor skills.

Which goes back to my statement about there being no evidence, medical or otherwise, that supports this theory.

To believe this you have to believe that using one finger under stress is too difficult but using five is perfectly fine. That makes no sense.

While gun gurus have their place, commenting on the functions of the body isn't one of them. Talk to a doctor and they will tell you its bunk.

kris&bela
10-28-2007, 10:23 PM
I use it all the time.Never had any problem chambering a round by using it...

psriley
10-28-2007, 10:29 PM
Depends. Since being educated on the merits of the tactical reload, I do mostly that these days, even though all my shooting is just casual dorking around at the range. Even with casual dorking around, I've gotten into the habit of counting my rounds, dropping the mag with one in the chamber and the slide in battery, keeping the pistol at eye level, and inserting a fresh mag without really looking at the mag. Since I have 4 mags for each of my semi-auto pistols, I only need to manually actuate the slide every 32-40 rounds (depending on the gun).

When I do actuate the slide, I mostly slingshot it, since I'm a lefty and the gun world hates lefties. :I wish there was a "grrrrrrrrrr" smiley I could insert here:

Bobula
10-28-2007, 10:31 PM
Train one way, you'll revert to it in an emergency.
Releasing the slide lock is a fine motor skill.

Army
10-28-2007, 10:58 PM
Thousands and thousands of action pistol shooters, including thousands of action pistol champions, use the slide release with no problems or hesitation.

That's what it's there for.

STAGE 2
10-29-2007, 12:04 AM
Releasing the slide lock is a fine motor skill.

Based on what? What makes that a fine motor skill but slingshotting isn't? As as aside, because clint smith said so isn't a proper justification.

ar15barrels
10-29-2007, 12:19 AM
Thousands and thousands of action pistol shooters, including thousands of action pistol champions, use the slide release with no problems or hesitation.

That's what it's there for.

Yep.

Reloading with only one hand is fun too.
Try is sometime.
We usually have to do that at least once a year at our matches.
It makes you think.

Here's a hint: shoot the gun empty first.

mike452
10-29-2007, 12:41 AM
I know some people don't use it because of preference. I don't think it's to avoid chambering problems.

I always use it if one is on the gun. I donít feel comfortable bring the gun back to pull the slide, taking the gun off its general direction, and having my left hand blocking the sights and my view.

icormba
10-29-2007, 2:01 AM
According to Wilson Combat's webpage they call it a slide stop, but they also sell another part called a "Extended Slide Release".

I guess wouldn't make sense to call it a Extended Slide Stop; would sound kinda stupid wouldn't it?

Crazed_SS
10-29-2007, 3:05 AM
I used to.. I dont anymore. My buddy is a LEO and broke me of the habit.

thefinger
10-29-2007, 3:08 AM
I use the slide release after I've loaded a fresh mag, and I know thats how most LEO train also. I've always just been told to not use the slide release when not chambering a round. It makes sense that the release would get worn-in/worn-out over a long period of time, but its there to be used. If you are shooting enough rounds to wear the release down to where it doesn't function properly then the pistol is probably not a safe-queen that you want to keep in mint condition--in that case, replacing a small part after a few years of shooting shouldn't be an issue.

bear308
10-29-2007, 7:06 AM
I use the slide release after I've loaded a fresh mag, and I know thats how most LEO train also. I've always just been told to not use the slide release when not chambering a round. It makes sense that the release would get worn-in/worn-out over a long period of time, but its there to be used. If you are shooting enough rounds to wear the release down to where it doesn't function properly then the pistol is probably not a safe-queen that you want to keep in mint condition--in that case, replacing a small part after a few years of shooting shouldn't be an issue.

the problem is that the notch in the slide can / will wear down over time. I don't use it on any of my handguns (except for my HK P7). I have seen countless Glock slides with worn out notches. Don't think of it as replacing a $15 slide stop, think of it as replacing a >$100 slide.

And this thing about competition shooters using it all the time I call bs. Some do some don't. Most big time IPSC guys never go dry, but then again these are raceguns in many cases so none of it holds true (neccessarily) to other forms of shooting.

Biggest reason I have seen for using the rack method, When your gun jams you probably going to tap the mag and rack the slide (tap-rack). This is the same manuever as the last two actions of a reload is you use the rack method. When SHTF now you only have to know one manuever that does multiple things.

M. Sage
10-29-2007, 7:11 AM
isn't it properly called a slide stop?

Like he said, some handguns have a stop that doesn't have a release lever. My CZ52 comes to mind.

I usually don't use the release, unless it's really really in an easy location.

STAGE 2
10-29-2007, 10:14 AM
the problem is that the notch in the slide can / will wear down over time. I don't use it on any of my handguns (except for my HK P7). I have seen countless Glock slides with worn out notches. Don't think of it as replacing a $15 slide stop, think of it as replacing a >$100 slide.

There was a poll on one of the other gun boards about exactly this. There wasn't anyone with a sig, 1911, walther or glock that experienced any sort of wear on the slide from using the release.

This of course makes sense because the steel in the slide is much harder than the steel used in the slide release. If anything wears its going to be the $15 part. It should be noted that wearing of the finish on the slide isn't wearing of the slide.

As far as the $15 part wearing, I don't know many people that have had that problem either. After thousands and thousands of rounds through several weapons there is no wear to speak of.

WolfMansDad
10-29-2007, 10:19 AM
Using the slide release is my second choice. My first preference is ramming the magazine home and having the slide release on its own. With practice, you can actually get that to happen every time. The trick is to pop the bottom of the mag at a slight forward angle, not ninety degrees from the slide like most people do it. Slingshotting feels slow and clumsy to me, but I can do it if I have to.

I've never bought into that "fine-motor skills" argument either. If you can't manipulate the slide release, how can you aim with any precision or practice good trigger control? Most of my shooting under stress has been while hunting or in competition, and yes, you can get a little clumsy if you get flustered. However, I've never seen anybody bring down game or win a match by changing their technique to something easier to do under duress. You make hits under stress by controlling your emotions.

Stockton
10-29-2007, 10:24 AM
Its put there to use....sooooo....use it! You bought a gun....why wouldn't you shoot it? Too easy!

Mac

randy
10-29-2007, 10:31 AM
Wolf you are right if your fine motor skills aren't good enough for the slide stop then how are you going to pull the trigger. The simple answer is and has been forever.

Your groups open up under stress that is why accuracy of the shooter during none stress practice is so important. If during your practice session your groups are 6" how big are they going to be when placed under stress? Two or three times?

elenius
10-29-2007, 10:47 AM
With my glock 22, the slide will often go back into battery and cycle a new round all by itself if I whack the new mag in hard enough :)

gobabygo
10-29-2007, 11:48 AM
Those of you that slingshot probably don't own a Springfield TRP Operator. Oww those sights hurt.

I'm no "professional" instructor but it's pretty clear that using the slide release is faster than slingshoting (this from in IPSC/USPSA standpoint where every fraction of a second counts).

Like Wolf, I also have a problem with the "fine motor skills" argument. If you're so discombobulated that you've lost the ability to manipulate the slide release, then just put down the gun and give up. Of course if you're at this point in a reload that you have already managed to release the empty mag and seat a fresh mag, but that doesn't this count as a fine motor skill? Anyway, save yourself the trouble since you won't be able to align the sights or operate the trigger (well). If you do find and mash the trigger you risk shooting yourself or someone other than the intended target.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with slingshoting. There are some good reasons above and it's arguably easier which is why they give people that instruction, but the "fine motor skills" argument is bunk.

I also wouldn't worry about hurting your gun by using the slide stop at all. Even dropping a slide on an empty chamber won't really hurt your gun the number of times you'd actually do it, just don't do it all that often.

Anyway, choose which ever way you way and just train the heck out of it, but you should be able to do both.

jmgray
10-29-2007, 7:16 PM
This is one with no wrong answer. I'm a fan of using the features the designers thought to incude; both the slide serrations and a lever on the slide release give the shooter the flexability to choose.

BTW, Ever release the slide by seating the magazine with a little extra force? On some guns the momentum is enough to disengage the slide release(stop). By far the fastest way to reload, and there are some pretty serious shooters do it this way SOP, no jamming probs whatsoever

DrjonesUSA
10-29-2007, 7:45 PM
No, you should never use the slide stop/release.

The movement necessary to actuate it is a fine motor skill which will disappear under stress, as is "slingshotting" the slide - grabbing the slide between the thumb & forefinger.

The proper way to do it (and train yourself this way) is to use an overhand grasp and grip the slide with all four fingers and the palm/butt of your hand.

You can exert more pressure this way so you have a more firm grasp on the slide and it is a gross motor skill which will not disappear under stress.

DrjonesUSA
10-29-2007, 7:47 PM
This is one with no wrong answer.

That is not correct.



[b]BTW, Ever release the slide by seating the magazine with a little extra force? On some guns the momentum is enough to disengage the slide release(stop). By far the fastest way to reload, and there are some pretty serious shooters do it this way SOP, no jamming probs whatsoever[b]

I believe that is a sign of a malfunctioning pistol as the slide should NOT drop when you insert a magazine into it.

Pugster
10-29-2007, 7:53 PM
When I slingshot, I usually grab the front of the pistol where the front sights are. My grip is such that I have my thumb on one side and my other four fingers on the other side of the slide. This feels "correct" to me.

STAGE 2
10-29-2007, 8:23 PM
No, you should never use the slide stop/release.

The movement necessary to actuate it is a fine motor skill which will disappear under stress, as is "slingshotting" the slide - grabbing the slide between the thumb & forefinger.

Can you show us any evidence which illustrates that 1) using the thumb is a fine motor skill and that 2) using your thumb and fingers to grab the slide isnt and 3) the former is affected by stress but the latter is not.


It bewilders me that people think theres no problem finding the teeny tiny little mag release under stress but somehow when trying to use the slide release everything goes to pot.

Kruzr
10-29-2007, 8:40 PM
Gross motor skills are those that use large muscles or groups of small muscles in unison. Fine motor skills use small individual muscles.

Picking up a ball is using all gross motor skills. You grasp with your hand muscles in unison and lift with your arm muscles. Racking a slide is a gross motor skill. You grasp and pull or push with large muscles.

Picking up a penny is using fine motor skills. You must use the individual small muscles independent of large muscles. Pushing down the slide stop is a fine motor skill...... as is making a mag change (unless you choose to bump the release with your palm.)

You can find many studies unrelated to shooting guns that show your fine motor skills go to hell when you are under severe stress. Gun instructors simply figure the human will react the same way with guns.

Ever seen those tests where people are timed picking up blocks and fitting them into the cutouts....like the baby toy? Their times get much, much worse when they are subjected to stressful situations while doing that. Picking the blocks up..........gross motor skills, and they easily do that. Twisting them and fitting them into the cutouts.........fine motor skills and it takes them longer.

The important thing is that if you are going to train for SD, you need to do things the same way over and over so it becomes second nature and you do it without thought. If you've ever missed the slide stop then you need to practice that more if that's the method you choose to use.

BTW, I have no problem slingshotting my guns with target sights like the TRP. You have to learn to get your hand out of the way quick enough. :)

Army
10-29-2007, 11:51 PM
You can find many studies unrelated to shooting guns that show your fine motor skills go to hell when you are under severe stress. Gun instructors simply figure the human will react the same way with guns.

Ever seen those tests where people are timed picking up blocks and fitting them into the cutouts....like the baby toy? Their times get much, much worse when they are subjected to stressful situations while doing that. Picking the blocks up..........gross motor skills, and they easily do that. Twisting them and fitting them into the cutouts.........fine motor skills and it takes them longer.

"Simply figuring" is not reality, and that would be the instructor I would NOT go to.

Let the people practice a few hundred times, fitting the blocks into the correct holes....then test them. I'll bet their times improve greatly.

BTW, reaching across the top of the gun to run the slide, could interfere with the round entering the chamber as your palm or part of finger may enter the port.

As said before, JB designed the gun for Cavalry use, emphasizing one hand manipulation.

Slowshooter
10-29-2007, 11:57 PM
Aww jeeze, not this again!:lurk5:

I use slide stop/release more often than slingshot/overhand method. I do practice all though. Some guns, like Glock/SIG are harder to use, and some guns its easy. I prefer slide lock/release use because it saves the movement of my body. While using left hand for reloading, as I am putting my hand on grip, I can easily touch the slide lock/release. I have done this in competitions and it works well, just as I did in classes.

Now this is where someone would jump in and say that paper targets don't shoot back. Personally, my response would be a good number of profanities, so I won't post it here, but long story short, it has worked for me and it worked for others too. The added level of stress maynot be sufficient enough to cause my micro movement to go haywire.

eckerph
10-30-2007, 12:11 AM
I don't use it. I have to change my grip on my pistol to use it and i don't like that. I could care less about the "tactical advantages" of using the slide stop/release since if i have to kill someone I'm using my 12 gauge.

STAGE 2
10-30-2007, 1:14 AM
You can find many studies unrelated to shooting guns that show your fine motor skills go to hell when you are under severe stress. Gun instructors simply figure the human will react the same way with guns.

My point. They figure. There isn't any evidence that suggests this is the case with firearms. If you can drop a mag then you can press the release. Its really that simple.

As far as the fire motor skills argument, I'm fairly sure you have things confused. The distinction between gross and fine motor skills isn't separated by the number of fingers used. Moving your arms, or legs, or torso is a gross motor function. Your digits, whether 1 or all five are fine motor functions. So, whether you decide to use one (slide release) or all five (slingshot/hand over slide) each are equally susceptable to whatever "degredation" there is. This also ignores and wet or slippery conditions that may effect ones grip on the slide.


Folks should train how they want and practice with whats comfortable. My only point is that instructors that sling these lines about "motor function" are FOS.

Kruzr
10-30-2007, 7:23 AM
My point. They figure. There isn't any evidence that suggests this is the case with firearms. If you can drop a mag then you can press the release. Its really that simple.

As far as the fire motor skills argument, I'm fairly sure you have things confused. The distinction between gross and fine motor skills isn't separated by the number of fingers used. Moving your arms, or legs, or torso is a gross motor function. Your digits, whether 1 or all five are fine motor functions. So, whether you decide to use one (slide release) or all five (slingshot/hand over slide) each are equally susceptable to whatever "degredation" there is. This also ignores and wet or slippery conditions that may effect ones grip on the slide.


Folks should train how they want and practice with whats comfortable. My only point is that instructors that sling these lines about "motor function" are FOS.
You are absolutely wrong. Grasping is a gross motor skill. When you get around to raising kids, you'll see that babies develop gross skills first. They grab and grasp at everything in their reach. When you see them wrap their hand around your finger, that's a gross skill. You need to find someone to explain fine and gross motor skills, it's how the muscles are being used that determines it.

I can't imagine why you think handling a gun will suddenly be different than using your motor skills on anything else but you can believe whatever you want. It's a bit hard to find volunteers for stress testing who will be under live fire.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever taken any shooting self defense courses?

guns_and_labs
10-30-2007, 8:00 AM
You are absolutely wrong. Grasping is a gross motor skill. When you get around to raising kids, you'll see that babies develop gross skills first. They grab and grasp at everything in their reach. When you see them wrap their hand around your finger, that's a gross skill. You need to find someone to explain fine and gross motor skills, it's how the muscles are being used that determines it.

I can't imagine why you think handling a gun will suddenly be different than using your motor skills on anything else but you can believe whatever you want. It's a bit hard to find volunteers for stress testing who will be under live fire.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever taken any shooting self defense courses?

Wikipedia disagrees (as do the physiology texts in my office right now):

Fine motor skills can be defined as coordination of small muscle movements which occur e.g., in the fingers, usually in coordination with the eyes. In application to motor skills of hands (and fingers) the term dexterity is commonly used....

The abilities which involve the use of hands, develop over time, starting with primitive gestures such as grabbing at objects to more precise activities that involve precise hand-eye coordination. Fine motor skills are skills that involve a refined use of the small muscles controlling the hand, fingers, and thumb. The development of these skills allows one to be able to complete tasks such as writing, drawing, and buttoning.


My wife is a university professor, teaching psychomotor development ( a horrible mangling of English, but that's what she calls it), so I lifted her notes for another opinion: 'Grasping' is the beginning of fine motor skill development for infants.

While I love to read Clint Smith and other self defense writers and instructors, I don't read him for physiology instruction, especially not the psychophysiology of stress. The physical movement of sweeping the thumb down less than an inch is no more prone to stress related error than grasping and moving a tensioned bar over a specific span of movement -- they are both fine motor skills requiring coordination and precision of movement, from a medical point of view.

The best argument I've heard on this is: pick one and stick with it in training. Personally, I was trained to use the slide release in IPSC, so that's what I use.

Kruzr
10-30-2007, 8:03 AM
Fine motor skills can be defined as coordination of small muscle movements which occur e.g., in the fingers, usually in coordination with the eyes. In application to motor skills of hands (and fingers) the term dexterity is commonly used....

Fine motor skills are skills that involve a refined use of the small muscles controlling the hand, fingers, and thumb.

Grasping with your whole hand isn't an example of "dexterity." Maybe you can ask your wife (or read the definitions you posted.) It's how the muscles are used.................

guns_and_labs
10-30-2007, 8:07 AM
Grasping with your whole hand isn't an example of "dexterity." Maybe you can ask your wife (or read the definitions you posted.) It's how the muscles are used.................

I did, thanks.

And just for grins, Wikipedia on "Gross Motor Skills":
The term gross motor skills refers to the abilities usually acquired during infancy and early childhood as part of a child's motor development. By the time they reach two years of age, almost all children are able to stand up, walk and run, walk up stairs, etc. These skills are built upon, improved and better controlled throughout early childhood. These movements come from large muscle groups and whole body movement.

WolfMansDad
10-30-2007, 8:09 AM
Have any of you guys ever been deer hunting? Do you remember what it was like trying to draw a bead on your first buck? Your heart pounds; you tremble and sweat; you get all bumble-fingered and can't hold the sights still; your vision gets blurry. Many people miss their first buck. Some don't even fire, they are so rattled. I've heard of people just cycling the bolt over and over, thinking they are shooting but not realizing they are not pulling the trigger, while they dump live rounds on the ground.

This is called "buck fever." It's an emotional response to the excitement of the hunt. Everybody who loves to hunt feels it, and the excitement doesn't diminish with age or experience. What does change, what in fact MUST change, is your reaction to it. If you want to hit that deer, you have to get your reaction under control. You must master yourself. People do it. In fact, if you can't do it, you can't hunt.

Saying you have to slingshot is like saying you have to have a big, palm-sized safety on your deer rifle. It's ridiculous. It's basically saying you can't ever get over your buck fever, get control of yourself, and get the job done. Do these pistol instructors really believe that cops are so emotionally undisciplined that they can't bring themselves under control in stressfull or exciting situations? Do they really believe that law enforcement officers or soldiers are that inferior to big-game hunters in maturity and self control? If I were a cop or a soldier, I would be insulted!

No, the argument that your fine motor skills inevitably go away under stress is specious, and it ultimately undermines your ability to get the job done. You make hits by getting yourself under control. Emotional discipline is hard enough by itself. How are you supposed to do it if you've been taught it's not even possible?

Kruzr
10-30-2007, 8:16 AM
Do those deer or big game shoot back while you are taking the shot? Do you always know there is only one deer who will shoot back so it's the same situation everytime?

I think everyone should rack the slide as they want to. Take a class and then choose what you want to take away from that training.

:)

To me, a slingshot is a gross skill while the slide stop is a fine one. Your mileage may vary.

STAGE 2
10-30-2007, 10:03 AM
You are absolutely wrong. Grasping is a gross motor skill. When you get around to raising kids, you'll see that babies develop gross skills first. They grab and grasp at everything in their reach. When you see them wrap their hand around your finger, that's a gross skill. You need to find someone to explain fine and gross motor skills, it's how the muscles are being used that determines it.

No I'm not. Using your fingers is a fine motor function. If you don't believe me ask the doctors. I did and they agreed with me.


I can't imagine why you think handling a gun will suddenly be different than using your motor skills on anything else but you can believe whatever you want. It's a bit hard to find volunteers for stress testing who will be under live fire.

But you see I dont. I believe that if is stress is going to affect me its going to affect me across the board. I don't believe that its somehow going to not affect me dropping the mag, but it wont when I grasp the slide, but it will if I try the slide release. That doesn't flow with logic or medical science.


Just out of curiousity, have you ever taken any shooting self defense courses?

Yes I have. And as with everything I take from them what I find useful and leave what I dont.

There is no such thing as one technique. Anyone who tells you there is, I feel is a questionable instructor.

STAGE 2
10-30-2007, 10:04 AM
To me, a slingshot is a gross skill while the slide stop is a fine one. Your mileage may vary.

Thats like saying "to me the sky is green". You're entitled to you opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that the sky is blue and finger movement is a fine motor function.

high_revs
10-30-2007, 10:54 AM
ditto to what people said about instructors and training. i am always told to pull the slide. actually, it's about bump (bump the mag), tap (tap the side) and pull slide, at least in the tactical shooting classes i attended. they always want it taht way for muscle memory.

caveat: only time i'd use the slide lock is when the mag is disconnected, and the range/instructor is checking to make sure chamber is empty b4 i holster.

Roccobro
10-30-2007, 11:00 AM
My first preference is ramming the magazine home and having the slide release on its own. With practice, you can actually get that to happen every time.
With my glock 22, the slide will often go back into battery and cycle a new round all by itself if I whack the new mag in hard enough
BTW, Ever release the slide by seating the magazine with a little extra force? On some guns the momentum is enough to disengage the slide release(stop). By far the fastest way to reload, and there are some pretty serious shooters do it this way SOP, no jamming probs whatsoever

DITTO with my G21. I love the look I get on the range from other shooters. Using the slide stop and/or the slingshot method feels like F-O-R-E-V-E-R to get back into play. Yes, you NEED to practice slingshot for clearing drills, YES one handed operation would be great to be proficient with. Even try a couple times the belt or pocket rear sight hook for at least the experience. ;)


BUT!

Practice ALL ways. Because when the poop hits the fan, you want to be able to stay in the fight any way possible. Missing a shooting thumb? Missing weak hand? Weak hand up for defense and strong taking the shot? Missing your pants? Oh wait.., wrong thread.. :D

Practice all and the gun won't ever be empty when the time comes to stay in the fight under stress. :)


Justin

cobra198
10-30-2007, 12:23 PM
Great poll, I was wondering this myself too. I almost always use the slide release. Only time it caused a bit of a problem was when I was shooting a friends brand new 229. For the first few mags it needed a good slingshot to chamber the round.
I dont own a glock, but am thinking about getting one sometime in the future. Interesting to hear about the slide release causing damage... Ill have to keep that in mind!

Kruzr
10-30-2007, 3:57 PM
Thats like saying "to me the sky is green". You're entitled to you opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that the sky is blue and finger movement is a fine motor function.

And you are entitled to your opinions also. Fine motor skills are use of the small muscles in a refined manner using hand to eye coordination.

Grasping is the beginning of fine motor skills like standing is the beginning of walking. Both are still gross skills.

I don't know about you, but I can pick up a ball without looking at it and using my muscles in a refined way. I can't pick up a penny this way. So I guess there are fine motor skills and extra fine motor skills.........huh?

STAGE 2
10-30-2007, 4:57 PM
And you are entitled to your opinions also. Fine motor skills are use of the small muscles in a refined manner using hand to eye coordination.

Grasping is the beginning of fine motor skills like standing is the beginning of walking. Both are still gross skills.

Baloney. The medical books define hand function as fine motor skills. Both of my doctor buddies said the exact same thing. You can spin it any way you like, but they are both fine motor functions subject to the same degradation under stress.

In fact, your own definition shows this. Using the hand over method or slingshotting are both using small muscles in a refined manner using hand eye coordination.



I don't know about you, but I can pick up a ball without looking at it and using my muscles in a refined way. I can't pick up a penny this way. So I guess there are fine motor skills and extra fine motor skills.........huh?

The size of an object has nothing to do with motor skills. Because the penny is small enough you need to look has nothing to do with what motor skills are used.

sargenv
10-30-2007, 5:53 PM
I dunno.. if I load my 229 that has locked itself open on the last shot, it will generally chamber a round for me when I seat the magazine home. My 1911 pattern guns I always use the slide stop. My model 41, always use the slide stop.. Ruger P94, same thing.. The only guns I don't use it for are guns that do not have one. I had a Ruger Mark 1 22 that didn't have one. My open gun does not lock back since I should never run it dry.

grywlfbg
10-30-2007, 6:14 PM
Just finished a 4-day Larry Vickers pistol/rifle course and his feeling is that you should ALWAYS use the slide release. When you insert the mag your thumb is already in the correct spot - it just wastes time to move your hand up to pull the slide back. Also, under pressure you're liable to ride the slide back and cause a malfunction. Not to mention it will take you a lot longer to regain your sight picture after a slingshot than by using the slide release. One of the cops in the course didn't believe him so we timed the cop doing it both ways. He was almost 2 seconds quicker from last shot to first shot and he was anti-slide release.

Larry said the WORST possible thing you would do would be to switch between them. You should always do it one way or the other because if you ever need to fight w/ your gun you don't want to confuse yourself.

If your pistol won't go into battery by using the slide release your gun (or your mag) is broken.

JiminCA
10-30-2007, 8:37 PM
If you shoot a Beretta 92F and slingshot it's just a matter of time before you put your gun on safe while slingshotting it. That could get you killed. On the G model it wouldn't be a problem because it's a decocker and not a safety.

Some methods are just plain incompatible with the platform. You have to think it through and do it a lot to see how it works out.

I use the slide release on the 1911. When I hit the release as the final move of the mag insert my brain is running a program it has run thousands of times. I don't need to think about it and if the mag hits the slot, the slide stop will get tagged by my thumb. The ergonomic design of the gun, and the location of my grip is such that the stop is right where it needs to be and the movement I need to drop the slide is what I'd call gross - a sweep of my left thumb.

Now, if I were shooting a Sig, I'd have to think about it some. Same with a Glock. The little slide release combined with the location too rearward is a problem.

Some guns are designed where one method might be preferable over another. For my platform (1911) the slide stop works great. You could slingshot it but it's slower, requires two hands, and IMO doesn't buy you anything.

Fighter pilots execute tremendous fine motor skill feats under extreme stress. As the earlier poster said, it's all about getting yourself under control. Forget this business of a doctor's distinction regarding fine vs gross motor skill. The question is - are you running an ingrained (muscle memory) program or not? None of the "medical info" presented here relates to something someone has done tens of thousands of times. If you want to learn about that - talk to martial arts people.

thedrickel
10-30-2007, 8:50 PM
Hehe, my loose CZ52 only requires that I slap the mag in solidly and it takes care of the rest.

virulosity
10-30-2007, 10:43 PM
Hehe, my loose CZ52 only requires that I slap the mag in solidly and it takes care of the rest.

yep same on my HK USP ELITE

NorCalAl
10-31-2007, 1:37 PM
I did it when I first got my 1911's, then read somewhere (I think on the 1911 forums) that it was bad practice and I stopped using it. I do think you get a little more juice to get a tight gun into battery grabbing the slide, but I no longer believe there's any reason not to use the release.
Still, I don't use it. :D

metalhead357
10-31-2007, 5:07 PM
You can find many studies unrelated to shooting guns that show your fine motor skills go to hell when you are under severe stress. Gun instructors simply figure the human will react the same way with guns.



+100000000 in high stress you DO loose a lot of fine motor control and pin point accuracy in dang near every skill but running away. I pray no one has to find out the hard way that they cant seem to work the slide of thier gun if they're ever being fired upon.........

Use the slide for nearly every app. About the safest way to go; About the only time I DONT use the slide itself is when cleaning and my other hand is occupied with cleaner, brush, etc......

STAGE 2
10-31-2007, 5:36 PM
+100000000 in high stress you DO loose a lot of fine motor control and pin point accuracy in dang near every skill but running away. I pray no one has to find out the hard way that they cant seem to work the slide of thier gun if they're ever being fired upon..........

I don't think anyone is arguing that stress doesn't have an effect on motor functions. What people are saying is that 1) if it was such an issue, then people wouldn't be able to pull the trigger or drop a mag and 2) the "preferred" method is just as susceptable to this degredation.

metalhead357
10-31-2007, 5:51 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that stress doesn't have an effect on motor functions. What people are saying is that 1) if it was such an issue, then people wouldn't be able to pull the trigger or drop a mag and 2) the "preferred" method is just as susceptable to this degredation.


Oh I understand that- but in that you've made the argument for them heavy triggers/trigger pulls, BIG workable slides, etc.

So if you're "just a shooter" then so be it and do as you wish, but if you're also preparing if there comes a day where you might actually have to defend your life with a gun--then better prepare for it the way the instructors, experts, and survivors have all pretty much stated-- USE THE SLIDE as your dexiterity to work a mircro lever is about NIL at best.

grywlfbg
10-31-2007, 8:23 PM
A micro lever? Hitting a slide release is not any way, shape, or form a "fine" motor skill. If you insert the mag correctly your thumb is w/in an inch of the slide release on any auto-loading pistol. Just push it. If you're too stressed to hit the slide release there's no way in heck you'll be able to squeeze the trigger in any kind of controlled manner which means you won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn so don't even bother reloading.

This is something you need to practice (both w/ your eyes open and closed) but is easily doable not matter how much stress you're in. It doesn't take any more skill to hit the slide release as it does to slingshot (and remember to not ride the slide back) and the slide release is a lot faster.

If it's good enough for Delta Force it's good enough for me :p

metalhead357
10-31-2007, 8:43 PM
It doesn't take any more skill to hit the slide release as it does to slingshot (and remember to not ride the slide back) and the slide release is a lot faster.

If it's good enough for Delta Force it's good enough for me :p

Who's delta force? or should I ask WHICH Delta? the Real one or the Chuck norris one?

Face facts; those that have been in high stress situations, those that study high stress situations, and those that have SURVIVED high stress situations....they all point to the same thing; that button, lever, micro lever, release......Whatever the heck you wanna call it now or foreverafter-- its tooo dma small for MOST* to be able to readily use and/or even actually comprehend.

*MOST as in NOT everyone; sure there are SOME that be able to overcome the issues......But lettme ask you this; would you rather prepare ina way THAT HAS WORKED or would you rather prepare in a way that only SOMETIMES works?

No need to re-invent the wheel. And NOT ALL here are Delta force (Real or imagined)--- So truth be told~ better to follow what's worked in the field, off the field, around the field, and even behind the field rather than trying to train for a button.

As far as I know all the biggie survival schools, defensive shooting schools, and the like-- all subscribe to the "Rack the slide" and NOT "hit d' button".

I'll go with what's already worked thousands of times rather than "Chance it".

But hey...your gun, your life on the line someday (I hope/pray not) but do as you will.............

1SGMAT
10-31-2007, 8:45 PM
Man. Where does one start. First off I will say that the the only real time "I" use the slide stop / release in when performing admin functions or clearing a major stoppage. Like USMC 2651 E5 said before I train the way I fight (you keep that up young hooah).
All though I am a believer that hitting the slide stop under stress is hard to accomplish because it is a fine motor skill I will try to put more of a tactical spin on this.
I cant believe how many times I have seen someone advocate the sling shot method. That to me is the worst. I would use the slide stop before a slingshot method. Even the guy that came back from Vickers class said he used the slide stop but what he failed to mention in his post is that I think he is hitting the slide "release" with his support "non firing" hand where as I would bet most of the posters here are talking about using the firing hand. It was mentioned before by either Bear308 or DrJones that this causes you to adjust your grip (unless you are a friggen ape) and as we know your grip is the first thing to have correct before firing a shot. Im sure someone will chime in about their race gun with 4 inch release (to each his own)
OK as I was saying Tactical points.
First: You should never shoot to slide lock "dry".
Second: Always maintain a firing grip on the pistol.
Third: Whom ever is an advocate of the sling shot method go grab your pistol and attempt to do your (clear it first) reload by slingshot while your your pistol is orientated toward the threat. Cant do it (unless you are some contortionist). All speed reloads should be done with the pistol still up and ready to fight. if you use the method of bringing your palm over the top of your slide, grasping it and riping it to the rear then let it fly; all this is done without taking the pistol out of the fight (below your line of sight). You also have the major muscles in your arm involved so you are much stronger here than in slingshot mode. If you slingshot your body mechanics will bring the gun down to about the low ready and your eyes will likely follow it (eyes should never leave threat area).
Fourth: The 2 main clearance drills use this "over the top, grasp, rip to the rear and release" so your mind will have this movement down as it is all you train for to get the pistol back into the fight.
Fifth: Try to do the sling shot or slide release reload on the run, out of breath, on unsteady ground. Thats always funny.
sixth: Do all of the above at night.
seventh: Do all above while you are sweating your *** off or have just put that pressure dressing on your buddy and your hands are covered in blood (that extra flesh on steel really helps hear).
Im sure I am leaving out something , but Im sure you all will remind me of that. Just try it.

Blue
10-31-2007, 8:49 PM
I never do, I was trained not to. Plus it's more comfortable for me to just rack the slide back than to bother with trying to get my thumb up there to hit the tab.

Shane916
10-31-2007, 8:54 PM
Great poll, I was wondering this myself too.

Thanks :) I concur.

I always wondered as what the majority does because I was instructed to use the slide release from many SSD officers, yet was later told to not use it from a well respected FFL on the boards. I guess it comes down to personal preference :) Lots of interesting information and debates though!

STAGE 2
10-31-2007, 8:54 PM
So if you're "just a shooter" then so be it and do as you wish, but if you're also preparing if there comes a day where you might actually have to defend your life with a gun--then better prepare for it the way the instructors, experts, and survivors have all pretty much stated-- USE THE SLIDE as your dexiterity to work a mircro lever is about NIL at best.

Ah yes.. the experts:rolleyes:

I have no doubt that folks charging outlandish amounts of money have a vested interest in having it "their way".

I've met plenty of people that have seen the elephant and know folks that would make Clint Smith huddle in the corner and cry. Shockingly enough all of these folks think the slide release is fine.

Rattling off facts and figures like gospel doesn't make them true. Because (insert name here) says something doesn't make it true. Especially when that something runs contrary to science, medical knowledge, and logic.

What I don't understand is this fervent need to defend these people. They are human. It IS possible for them to be wrong. I have never seen ANY evidence that suggests using the slide release is impossible or even harder in a firefight. I have seen evidence where using the slide has caused an FTF.


Since we know that both are fine motor skills, lets see some evidence that would actually support this contention that racking the slide is the only way to go.


(edit: just got off the phone with a buddy of mine who has his MD from UCLA and is also a gunny. Here's what he said. This varies from user to user because of the differences in techniques and the size of their extremeties, but generally, when using the slide release with the off hand, there isn't very much fine motor function because most people bring their finger to the release with their arm. When using the gun hand and adjusting the pistol, there is more fine motor function involved. However, using the hand over slide method requires the most amount of fine motor function as you are using all 5 fingers as opposed to just one. If this is the case then, according to the degradation theory this is the least advantageous method to use)


As far as I know all the biggie survival schools, defensive shooting schools, and the like-- all subscribe to the "Rack the slide" and NOT "hit d' button".

I'll go with what's already worked thousands of times rather than "Chance it".

So what. Everyone thought the earth was flat at one point as well. Having a bunch of people say the same thing does not make it true. Thats under logical fallacies 101.

As far as it having worked thousands of times, lets be serious here. In order for that statement to be true, it would mean that the vast majority of gun owner have actually been in a gunfight that has gone over 7, 10, or 15 rounds, and had to reload under incoming fire. Thats simply not the case. This holds true even with soldiers. When is the last time you saw a grunt fighting with his M9. How many troops are even issued an M9. Not many.


Look. If you want to use the slide thats perfectly fine. I just don't like it because is much slower and there is a potential for riding the slide, especially under stress.

Just don't sit there and tell me the one method is perfectly sound and impervious to stress while the other isn't. Thats just not true. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. And this includes any of the "experts" out there.

metalhead357
10-31-2007, 9:33 PM
Stage-

I hear ya' and agree on the common assessment of the 'experts" in general theory; but this aint general theory...its practcal application.

Those experts we're disagreeing about range from the FrontSight to Mas Ayyobb (sp). Open Class, Limited, etc, are a different ball of wax than someone shooting back at you.....

But hey, I say it again; Tiz your gun, your life to do with what you will, train how you will train and live/die how you will live or die. I've NO other 'dog in this race' other than stated opinion and the followup as to WHY my stated opinion. My stated opinion is based on dealings both in and out of the military, teaching self defense (unarmed), working the private sector (unarmed) in a high risk environment, 25+ years of shooting pistol, years of reading <crap> and <less crap> about the subject and actually talking with people like Mas who in turn trains peeps for just such an encounter where NOT being able to find that button, or hit that button could very concievably cost you your own life or the life of another. But even in this...my reasons for my stated opinion...I Am NOTTTTTTT claiming to be an expert of any kind, in any way on the subject from first hand experience. And again I say I hope NO ONE here ever has to find out which theory and/or practiced reality comes about........

Then again, as one earlier poster said... Whatta bout them guns WITHOUT a slide release? Say you pick up one of those and need to use it defensively? I dare say you'll be sitting there widdling yer' shakey fingers trying to find something that is NOT on each and every semi auto pitol.... just food for thought-- or fuel for the fray;)

metalhead357
10-31-2007, 9:36 PM
Look. If you want to use the slide thats perfectly fine. I just don't like it because is much slower and there is a potential for riding the slide, especially under stress.

Just don't sit there and tell me the one method is perfectly sound and impervious to stress while the other isn't. Thats just not true. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. And this includes any of the "experts" out there.

Missed the edit- I was typing too.

Points taken and agreed! Now lets hug and make like friends again before anyone thinks we dont like each other;) Just no grabbing m' butt:p

Clodbuster
10-31-2007, 9:39 PM
Really? I've owned a Beretta 92 F for over 15 years and have never had an issue with putting the gun on safe by mistake. Then again, I owned a Walther PPK 3 years prior to that, which has the safety in the exact same position, and using a slide stop is not an option on that pistol. Must have been the "double O" training.

Clod

If you shoot a Beretta 92F and slingshot it's just a matter of time before you put your gun on safe while slingshotting it. That could get you killed. On the G model it wouldn't be a problem because it's a decocker and not a safety.

Some methods are just plain incompatible with the platform. You have to think it through and do it a lot to see how it works out.

I use the slide release on the 1911. When I hit the release as the final move of the mag insert my brain is running a program it has run thousands of times. I don't need to think about it and if the mag hits the slot, the slide stop will get tagged by my thumb. The ergonomic design of the gun, and the location of my grip is such that the stop is right where it needs to be and the movement I need to drop the slide is what I'd call gross - a sweep of my left thumb.

Now, if I were shooting a Sig, I'd have to think about it some. Same with a Glock. The little slide release combined with the location too rearward is a problem.

Some guns are designed where one method might be preferable over another. For my platform (1911) the slide stop works great. You could slingshot it but it's slower, requires two hands, and IMO doesn't buy you anything.

Fighter pilots execute tremendous fine motor skill feats under extreme stress. As the earlier poster said, it's all about getting yourself under control. Forget this business of a doctor's distinction regarding fine vs gross motor skill. The question is - are you running an ingrained (muscle memory) program or not? None of the "medical info" presented here relates to something someone has done tens of thousands of times. If you want to learn about that - talk to martial arts people.

Clodbuster
10-31-2007, 9:46 PM
It bewilders me when I see newbies to tactical pistol matches do a tactical reload, and the magazine falls out of the magwell when they start running around....but it happens.

Clod

It bewilders me that people think theres no problem finding the teeny tiny little mag release under stress but somehow when trying to use the slide release everything goes to pot.

Army
10-31-2007, 11:40 PM
Many of your school "experts", teach slide grab as a matter of legal manuever. When asked in court how the gun became suddenly loaded and was accidently fired, the excuse of "I must have bumped the slide release.....just like they taught me at that uber tactical shooting school I went to" becomes a nightmare. It's CYA against liability.

I am curious too, how "fine motor skills" cannot hit the slide release, but is able to wipe the safety and/or drop a magazine. Not to mention how another magazine is easily inserted into that narrow space in the grip, after quickly removing it from its' carrier on the belt.

Never seems to be a problem with the Mickey Fowlers of Rob Leathams around here....or me for that matter.

In the same vein, according to the "experts", I'd never get my M16 reloaded, since I have to hit those miniscule magazine release and bolt release buttons, especially while hajji is shooting all kinds of crap at me.

Oh yeah, I always shoot to slide/bolt lock. It's a hell of a lot easier to know you need more ammo that way, compared to trying to count your shots...under stress...while being shot at...with all these fine motor skills that apparantly don't work anymore.........

puhleeze.
__________________

Franksremote
10-31-2007, 11:45 PM
Use what you practice. Do it enough times and it'll be second nature whether you release the slide or slingshot it. I prefer to slingshot, but switch to the release seemlessly if I have problems with my preferred maneuver.

I say: To each his/her own and leave it at that... :ninja:

STAGE 2
10-31-2007, 11:51 PM
My stated opinion is based on dealings both in and out of the military, teaching self defense (unarmed), working the private sector (unarmed) in a high risk environment, 25+ years of shooting pistol, years of reading <crap> and <less crap> about the subject and actually talking with people like Mas who in turn trains peeps for just such an encounter where NOT being able to find that button, or hit that button could very concievably cost you your own life or the life of another. But even in this...my reasons for my stated opinion...I Am NOTTTTTTT claiming to be an expert of any kind, in any way on the subject from first hand experience. And again I say I hope NO ONE here ever has to find out which theory and/or practiced reality comes about........


But I could say the exact same thing about using the slide. Riding it rather than simply pulling it back could cost you your life. The sword cuts both ways.

I don't understand why practice practice practice will get you through something when you're racking the slide, but somehow it won't if you use the slide release. It doesn't make any logical sense.

Once again, because Mas Ayoob says something doesn't mean anything to me. As was stated earlier in the thread, Larry Vickers has a far more impressive resume as far as firefights are concerned, and he thinks the slide release is just dandy. None of that really matters however.

What does matter is when someone can show some evidence or proof as to why what they are saying is correct. None of the people in the "don't use the slide release" camp has ever come forward with any emperical evidence to support what they are saying and yet I'm supposed to take it at face value because they wear oakleys and have glock monogramed T-shirts.

What we do have is medical science and logic completely contradicting their premise. These folks are qualified to comment on combat shooting. They are not qualified to comment on how the body reacts during stress or what constitutes a fine motor skill.


It doesn't bother you that no one is ever worried about hitting the mag release and yet hitting something that is larger on most pistols is such a huge disaster?




Then again, as one earlier poster said... Whatta bout them guns WITHOUT a slide release? Say you pick up one of those and need to use it defensively? I dare say you'll be sitting there widdling yer' shakey fingers trying to find something that is NOT on each and every semi auto pitol.... just food for thought-- or fuel for the fray;)

And if you would have read above that was already addressed. This thread is about pistols WITH slide releases and whether they should be used. If someone carrys a pistol without one, then obviously they should practice with it. However this is neither here nor there and has nothing to do with the current discussion.

guns_and_labs
11-01-2007, 5:45 AM
Can we switch to my second favorite 1911 debate: whether to use a shok-buff (which can make the slingshot ineffective)?

Franksremote
11-01-2007, 7:40 AM
Can we switch to my second favorite 1911 debate: whether to use a shok-buff (which can make the slingshot ineffective)?

You couldn't resist any longer either 'eh? :p

Adog5
11-01-2007, 9:33 AM
When I'm at the shooting range, I don't use the slide release lever (Glock) since it wears it. However, I will use it once in a while and I make sure that it's sufficient to chamber a round correctly.

So, my advice is not to use it on a regular basis (to not wear the parts), but to definitely test it once in a while to make sure it chambers a round with no problems. I use Glocks, so you have to test it on the guns you have.

Roccobro
11-01-2007, 11:39 AM
I think this thread has about run it's course. But since it's still open...

However this is neither here nor there and has nothing to do with the current discussion.

Sure it is. Why practice only one way and then be "stuck" should* the disaster strike. If we are talking about stress under fire, and some are worried about having the fine motor skill to keep your gun loaded, this is an interesting caveat.

* -You don't know if you will have your own 1911, a borrowed Glock, or a perps slide release-less gun when the time comes to fight.

"Being prepared" means not burying your head in the sand and think you will have the one gun you'd wish for when the fight comes to your doorstep. Train all ways and be proficient. Oh, wait. The thread title doesn't reflect this but the last three pages are all about it...


What I said:
Practice ALL ways. Because when the poop hits the fan, you want to be able to stay in the fight any way possible. Missing a shooting thumb? Missing weak hand? Weak hand up for defense and strong taking the shot? Missing your pants? Oh wait.., wrong thread.

But what do I know. Mr. Ayoob has always made sense to me in all of his teachings even though he has "less credentials" than another. :rolleyes: too bad Jim Cirrillo (sp?) died recently as M.A. is now higher up the respect chain among the living.

Like I said, I think this thread is about done. If your so set in your ways you cannot see the other sides perspective without needing notarized certification- then just enjoy it. If you like to break habits for any reason, you can do it without needing "proof" from anybody other than a medical doctors. :p

Justin

STAGE 2
11-01-2007, 1:59 PM
Sure it is. Why practice only one way and then be "stuck" should* the disaster strike. If we are talking about stress under fire, and some are worried about having the fine motor skill to keep your gun loaded, this is an interesting caveat.

But it doesn't have anything to do with this specific thread. If you want to start a different thread about general handgun training thats fine, but this thread is talking only about guns with slide releases.


* -You don't know if you will have your own 1911, a borrowed Glock, or a perps slide release-less gun when the time comes to fight.

See above.


"Being prepared" means not burying your head in the sand and think you will have the one gun you'd wish for when the fight comes to your doorstep. Train all ways and be proficient. Oh, wait. The thread title doesn't reflect this but the last three pages are all about it...

See above



Like I said, I think this thread is about done. If your so set in your ways you cannot see the other sides perspective without needing notarized certification- then just enjoy it. If you like to break habits for any reason, you can do it without needing "proof" from anybody other than a medical doctors. :p

Did you read anything I wrote? I've said several times, using the hand over slide method is perfectly fine for those that like it. I'm not the one advocating that people don't use this. I personally don't care what method anybody uses.

What I AM talking about is people who tell me that my method is NOT appropriate. These folks have never presented any tangible evidence to back up what they say. They are the ones who refuse to see the other perspective.

Bobula
11-01-2007, 2:09 PM
Based on what? What makes that a fine motor skill but slingshotting isn't? As as aside, because clint smith said so isn't a proper justification.

That's from the POST learning domain regarding firearms. I can't hit a slide lock/release lever while maintaining a proper grip. My hands are just to small.

And who the heck is Clint Smith?

STAGE 2
11-01-2007, 2:19 PM
That's from the POST learning domain regarding firearms. I can't hit a slide lock/release lever while maintaining a proper grip. My hands are just to small.

Different strokes for different folks.

It's always amazed me that different batters have different swings, different golfers as well, different runners have different strides, and so on and so forth. Yet for some reason there must be one technique for using guns no matter the size, age or preference of the person.



And who the heck is Clint Smith?

The owner/instructor at thunder ranch. He's real opinionated, and as with most teachers, has good points and bad points. I used his name only because he's pretty well known.

Bobula
11-01-2007, 2:21 PM
Gotcha, I'm not trying to say my way is best for everyone, but mearly it is best for me.

Roccobro
11-01-2007, 3:13 PM
Did you read anything I wrote? I've said several times, using the hand over slide method is perfectly fine for those that like it. I'm not the one advocating that people don't use this. I personally don't care what method anybody uses.

If you read what I wrote I was proving the same point. We are on the same side. ;) :D

See above

TTWYF,FTWYT!

Justin

metalhead357
11-01-2007, 4:44 PM
I'm not trying to say my way is best for everyone, but mearly it is best for me.

And THAT as they say is THAT....'cause I dont think either camp is comming forward with links & stacks of evidence for either camp. Practice is whats gonna save your rear if there's anything else beside divine provedence and/or stooopid luck should any one of us get into a gunfight.

STAGE 2
11-01-2007, 7:34 PM
And THAT as they say is THAT....'cause I dont think either camp is comming forward with links & stacks of evidence for either camp.

I guess you weren't listening.


Practice is whats gonna save your rear if there's anything else beside divine provedence and/or stooopid luck should any one of us get into a gunfight.

I agree completely. Now go and tell all those people who bash the slide release users to shut their pie holes.

metalhead357
11-01-2007, 7:40 PM
I guess you weren't listening.

I agree completely. Now go and tell all those people who bash the slide release users to shut their pie holes.

LOL! I would post the data if I had it...but you know as well as I do there will FOREVER be those propundants that will subscribe to whatever they want;)



OK FOLKS! If you're a SLIDE BASHER-- FOLLOW ME!!!! WE'RE DONE HERE... WE WON:p

Kruzr
11-01-2007, 8:16 PM
http://www.iansa.org/regions/samerica/images/women_destroying_husbands_gun.jpg
We don't use the slide stop at this school!

five.five-six
11-01-2007, 8:26 PM
I like to be all tac-tic-cool and juat slam the mag in, on most of my handguns, that will drop the slide and chamber a round :rolleyes:

ldivinag
11-02-2007, 1:40 AM
a family relative LEO who introduced me to SIGs, showed me the proper of releasing it...

racking the slide.

guns_and_labs
11-02-2007, 5:42 AM
That's from the POST learning domain regarding firearms. I can't hit a slide lock/release lever while maintaining a proper grip. My hands are just to small.



Just out of curiosity, could you please provide a link, both for the POST learning domain treatise on slide lock/release levers and for the "proper grip"?

I would have thought that, for 1911's, smaller hands would have made indexing with the weak hand thumb on the slide release easier.