PDA

View Full Version : Standard cap mags question


team06
10-25-2007, 7:04 PM
Ok, here's a theoretical question. Let's say a father and son want to get into 3-gun matches in Ca.. The father has standard capacity mags from way back for his AR's and would like to use these for 3 gun. Can his minor son also use the same mags or would he (the minor) need 10 rounders because of his age?
I know everything is ok for the competition rules, but I'm wondering about legally here.

Thanks!

team06

ohsmily
10-25-2007, 9:00 PM
He may use them if you are in the immediate vicinity (i.e. at the range with him). Age has nothing to do with the magazines.

FreedomIsNotFree
10-25-2007, 9:32 PM
Hypothetically speaking, it sure would have made things easier for you if you would have given those mags to your son prior to 2000.

Liberty1
10-25-2007, 9:47 PM
IANAL - The code is vast and there could be another section that specifically prohibits minors but I believe these sections cover it. So if he is with his parent he is not therefore a "prohibited" person as defined in 12101(minor) and can therefore use the exemption to 12020 (B) (2) found in 12020 (b) (22) (A) & (B). (don't you love code!)

Print the following out. It would at least confuse a leo enough that he would have to be a real ***** to arrest due to his ignorance of the law.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=11001-12000&file=12000-12003
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

12020 (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

(22) The loan of a lawfully possessed large-capacity magazine
between two individuals if all of the following conditions are met:

(A) The person being loaned the large-capacity magazine is not
prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101* of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from
possessing firearms or ammunition.

(B) The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or
location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not
otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity
magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the
large-capacity magazine is loaned.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12101

* 12101. (a) (1) A minor shall not possess a pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if one of the following
circumstances exists:
(A) The minor is accompanied by his or her parent or legal
guardian, and the minor is actively engaged in, or is in direct
transit to or from, a lawful, recreational sport, including, but not
limited to, competitive shooting, or agricultural, ranching, or
hunting activity, or a motion picture, television, or video
production, or entertainment or theatrical event, the nature of which
involves this use of a firearm.
(B) The minor is accompanied by a responsible adult, the minor has
the prior written consent of his or her parent or legal guardian,
and the minor is actively engaged in, or is in direct transit to or
from, a lawful, recreational sport, including, but not limited to,
competitive shooting, or agricultural, ranching, or hunting activity,
or a motion picture, television, or video production, or
entertainment or theatrical event, the nature of which involves the
use of a firearm.
(C) The minor is at least 16 years of age, the minor has the prior
written consent of his or her parent or legal guardian and the minor
is actively engaged in, or is in direct transit to or from, a lawful
recreational sport, including, but not limited to, competitive
shooting, or agricultural, ranching, or hunting activity, or a motion
picture, television, or video production, or entertainment or
theatrical event, the nature of which involves the use of a firearm.

(D) The minor has the prior written consent of his or her parent
or legal guardian, the minor is on lands owned or lawfully possessed
by his or her parent or legal guardian, and the minor is actively
engaged in, or is in direct transit to or from, a lawful,
recreational sport, including, but not limited to, competitive
shooting, or agricultural, ranching, or hunting activity, or a motion
picture, television, or video production, or entertainment or
theatrical event, the nature of which involves the use of a firearm.

(b) (1) A minor shall not possess live ammunition.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if one of the following
circumstances exists:
(A) The minor has the written consent of his or her parent or
legal guardian to possess live ammunition.
(B) The minor is accompanied by his or her parent or legal
guardian.
(C) The minor is actively engaged in, or is going to or from, a
lawful, recreational sport, including, but not limited to,
competitive shooting, or agricultural, ranching, or hunting activity,
the nature of which involves the use of a firearm.

DedEye
10-25-2007, 9:51 PM
IANAL - The code is vast and there could be another section that specifically prohibits minors but I believe these sections cover it. So if he is with his parent he is not therefore a "prohibited" person as defined in 12101(minor) and can therefore use the exemption to 12020 (B) (2) found in 12020 (b) (22) (A) & (B). (don't you love code!)

Print the following out. It would at least confuse a leo enough that he would have to be a real ***** to arrest due to his ignorance of the law.

There are no age restrictions on owning mags, so I can't see why use would be limited.

Liberty1
10-25-2007, 10:02 PM
There are no age restrictions on owning mags, so I can't see why use would be limited.

Possession is prohibited during a "loan" unless the exemption is met. Minors are prohibited persons for a "loan" in section 12020 unless they meet the exemtions in 12101. (see above cited restrictions for persons in 12101 in section 12020 (b) (22) (A).

added Let me correct that. "Possession" is not prohibited here, but the "loaner", loaning to an otherwise "12101 prohibited person" (who doesn't meet the exemptions in 12101), then has committed a 12020 prohibited act.

MudCamper
10-26-2007, 11:19 AM
All this stuff about minors is really moot in this case. You can lend your hi-cap mags to anybody (who's not a felon, etc.). Section 22 (B) is all that matters.

(22) The loan of a lawfully possessed large-capacity magazine
between two individuals if all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person being loaned the large-capacity magazine is not
prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from
possessing firearms or ammunition.
(B) The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or
location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not
otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity
magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the
large-capacity magazine is loaned.

Liberty1
10-26-2007, 11:32 AM
All this stuff about minors is really moot in this case. You can lend your hi-cap mags to anybody (who's not a felon, etc.). Section 22 (B) is all that matters.

(22) The loan of a lawfully possessed large-capacity magazine
between two individuals if all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person being loaned the large-capacity magazine is not
prohibited by Section...12101 of this code ...from
possessing firearms or ammunition.

If the minor is not prohibited in section 12101 from possessing pistols or ammunition through use of the 12101 exemptions (with parent, or with a note and over 16 etc...) then we agree. :p ...or a felon or a 5150 in WIC 8100 or adjudicated mentally deficient as described in WIC 8103.

randy
10-26-2007, 6:36 PM
I don't think the problem is the mags. I believe if you look through the AW laws under 18 yo you can't shoot an AW.

bwiese
10-26-2007, 6:54 PM
I don't think the problem is the mags. I believe if you look through the AW laws under 18 yo you can't shoot an AW.

Correct, because of the way 'lending' is defined in AW laws. Plus there are escalator 12280PC penalties for lending to a minor. This 'lending' in this section of the law even includes "use by another while looking over his shoulder".

Liberty1
10-26-2007, 8:27 PM
I don't think the problem is the mags. I believe if you look through the AW laws under 18 yo you can't shoot an AW.

Well, the issue before the CGN Internet Court of Opinion was only directed at mag lending to a minor (Minor is not defined in the PC by the way). If you're going to introduce the AWs wrench into this cog, I'm going to have to insist the petitioner refile. (I just assumed they were using OLLs).

team06
10-26-2007, 8:48 PM
There are NO AWs involved, only OLLs.
Our range is looking at holding some 3-gun matches next year and my son really wants to be part of it. The down side would be hauling around 2 or 3 times the amount of mags for a course of fire and a lot more reloads per stage by going with 10 rounders only. My son is 13, shoots USPSA, ICORE, Steel Challenge, and Take-5 venues with me.... and has been known to smoke me on a steel stage or two.
Now he wants to go play with the big dawgs in 3-Gun, I just figured that the firearm laws would be right at the tip of a lot of brains here.

team06